The Most Common Double Bass Mistake Explained
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- Опубліковано 27 гру 2016
- Double kick is hard to enough to learn correctly. Avoid this extremely common pitfall to speed up your learning curve, and make sure you are practicing the right things. I get questions about this problem almost on a weekly basis.
Skip the intro by going to about 1:05 if you want.
Just remember, that involuntary motion is not controllable. Its involuntary! Use real skills and build them up. There is no way to cheat and get good results.
You are by far the most helpful drummer I've ever seen talking about pedal technique. I know I personally have messaged you about this exact twitching issue, it's so bizarre to me how common of a problem it is, yet not a single other video(believe me, I've seen them all) Actually ever explains how to use your ankles. They just show exercises involving alternating between 8ths and 16ths and just expect you to know how to dribble the pedal. Thank you for actually being smart and understanding how to explain things properly. You deserve a lot of subscribers and people listening to your teachings.
The "ankle technique" is an unnatural motion, that's why it's so hard to learn. It works against the natural movement of the foot, which is ankle on the floor for stability and a tapping motion with the ball of the foot. That's basically heel down. You can play heel up doing mid tempo stuff with leg motion like Tommy Aldridge always does in his solo's. But ultra fast "ankle motion" has never felt right to me, I'm done with it anyway.
He absolutely is
Yeah. It's so frustrating. Everyone's like, yeah play these patters at 200bpm over and over and you'll improve. I'm like, dude, I can't move the pedal at 16th notes @ 200bpm, how do you expect me to practice your pattern?
Lmaooooo I’m cringing
You cracked me up when you said, "You are not drumming, you are twitching."
Hahahaha.
I would assume people don't appreciate your brutal honesty/sarcasm!
Kudos.
Yeah I think all 20 thumbs downs are people who prefer the soft noncommittal cumbayah politically correct middle-of-the-road corporate gloss over that made stream magazines and popular channels spew. They don't want anyone's personal mechanical issues to get in the way of views or issue sales so they basically always say you can do whatever you want and don't take a stand on anything. Even though they're often great players who know what's right.
Control over speed everyday. Control it slowly, the speed comes with practice. A hard lesson to learn for us all cause we want shortcuts, but once learned a lot of new doors open up.
Is that King of the Hill porn as your picture?
Imax 88 him imitating Patrick swayze in ghost with Peggy, so close enough lol
@@mesadrums375 oh ok lmao. At least it has a reference. I thought it was straight up koth nasty
This is something I discovered quite quickly (and i'm glad I didn't stick with it) when I started playing drums almost a year ago. Playing double bass is also supposed to feel heavy on your muscles. Train your legs on the kit to achieve that stamina and endurance (it'll feel much and much lighter if you just keep practicing). It's taken almost a year, but I can now play double bass at max 150 without losing control.
....try doing George Lawrence Stone book with metronome not only for hands but for feet. It about development of muscles not how fast you can do at current moment....Never go faster than what you can control.
Hey man, I just bought your Complete Double Bass book and I have to say it is without a doubt the best book I've ever seen on the subject! Great work, and thanks for what you do!
Thanks. Good to know you’re finding it useful.
IF only I had seem this 8 years ago. Im now re-Writing muscle memory to my right ankle. Ive been doing this twitching motion for sooo long..
Sure I can play 120-130bpm full-leg motion but then the 150-180bpm range only with ankles is a really frustrating tempo-area.
Such a good video!
This video appeared in my recommended and is so relevant to me. I've been trying to control the twitch to gain higher speeds but there is a gap in my speed range. By twitching, i can get the faster speeds eventually and i can get the slower speeds with full leg motion. You just explained where i'm going wrong. No more twitching for me. Thanks so much! Subbed.
Thanks for watching, glad I could help
I like that brutal honesty. Thanks for the lesson
Wow. I never realized up until now that I do a floating and randomly sometimes switch to the swirly foot technique when on double bass. Neat.
I been playing double bass for 25 years , you are so right excellent video
Best advice I've ever heard.
For years Ive been doing this, always putting off that sweaty, mid tempo practice. I'm always just like "meh, dont need it dont care". I think I need you tell me that I suck every morning
Great technical teacher, I am starting to go over all your videos both new and old. your no bull approach to teaching and critic is whats needed for solid foundation, you break things down very well and sometimes truth is hard to accept as a student but it's whats needed to improve so I appreciate your firm ways of teaching keep it up! :-) and thank you for sharing your craft it's helped me, hope it helps others as well
This is the exact problem I have at the moment. Thanks for the help!!!
Would have been good to also mention about what particular muscles need be used in making those long, deliberate, slower strokes. That comes down to choosing a particular technique, (ankle technique uses only calf muscles, and full leg motion involves the entire leg working) so people can understand that, and begin to isolate the use of the proper muscle groups they need to work, for the technique they choose.
I started out with that twitching myself. That, combined with trying to use my upper leg to give power to the stroke, just created a big jumble of wrong things I was doing and not getting anywhere with it. It wasn’t until I discovered that I had zero technique, and began to develop ankle technique for faster playing, that I actually started making progress with playing cleaner and more precise. I still have a ways to go, but I am still seeing consistent (but slow) improvement. It doesn’t happen overnight.
Good video and explanation though!
Makes a lot of sense in what you are saying , great video Ryan
Great lesson!! SO many players I know try to harvest that twitch to no avail. Slow is fast and in control!
Big problem for myself too. Sometimes my feet (especially the left foot) just starts living their own life and i feel like im not in command of their doing at all anymore haha. I think different kind of rudiment exercises people usually do with their hands is really helpful to this problem. Like basic paradiddles with your foot with and without accents etc. I think its really good for getting a real control for your feet. Of course basic speed exercises are a must too.
i had the same problem, the exercise that helped me to control both feet is a rating exercise , 1 or 2 measure each notes, start with quarter notes, eight notes, eight notes triplets and sixteenth notes, and then backwards, this really help me to control and build speed
Excellent point, and is one of the mistakes I first made. Now that I've practiced on doing voluntary controlled hits it sounds so much better. From there it's about about building stamina and speed while keeping the even hits.
I noticed this the first time I played double bass on a drumset at guitar center. I use kick with my heel up.
Top top top! This is what I was missing. Thank you
great videos! did you play for Havok?
Josh Steffen yeah, I played on Burn.
No way, Havok is amazing. Very awesome to hear you played drums with them
Halsey Marcoux yeah I was the 3rd out of 5 official drummers (plus the singer's brother who filled in at various times) so it's hard to keep track. Only 2 of us me and #5 Pete are on full-length albums but #2 was on an ep and also played in Speedwolf. They're on bass player #6 now who used to be in Cephalic Carnage and Job for a Cowboy, I played with the 3rd and 4th (#2 was the brother of #3 (who was in the A-OK's later) and also played in a band with my current singer and with drummer #2). They're only on lead guitar #2 but there's always room for another lineup. Very confusing.
Ryan Alexander Bloom no shit! I did melting the mountain and afterburner a while ago.
Josh Steffen I've seen them. Pretty good work. Melting the mountain is not a popular cover so I think you have to only one. There are several afterburner versions out there which is weird because it's very hard to play. Even for me.
very well explained
AMEN. Beautiful post. I think the cult-like fervor over ankle strokes as a route to speed leads many people to start their feet a-twichin' and bouncin', without the necessary super-fine-tuning of the other leg muscles that ultimately control the weight / force that each "ankle stroke'" is exerting. Anyhow, thank you for this video - I imagine it has rescued countless drummers.
Ty thats where I've been stuck, thats precisely where i was going wrong.
Great advice
I have never heard of this with drumming, "Twitching". You are right about big deliberate motion for making sure your beats are even and controlled.
There is no quick way to be a fast drummer, its all about practicing good technique and building on a great foundation of controlled rudiments.
Even easy 8th note accents and triplet accent patterns are great to start off with. To first get good control and understanding of how the sticks work and how to control them. Once the accents are down, then apply them to the set with the accents as Cymbal crashes.
The Triplet, 8th, and 16th notes are great to know with the hands and once you internalize them apply it to the feet.
Double bassing is very weird feeling at first but once you get over the hurdle then its almost an automatic motion where its not really thought of, it just happens.
The kool part of double bassing, is when you start dragging notes to give an entirely different sound instead of straight 8th/16th notes. That's when thinking is more involved.
All in all, just practice on a pad or the kit , nothing is better than working on easy stuff and getting faster at it.
Some of the best drummers just rely on a few simple patterns and nail them with blinding speed, because they gradually gain speed and control over time.
Halsey Marcoux I agree with all of that. I know the twitch well from my students. It's hard to find if you're not looking because you'll rarely see it in public, but as a double bass teacher I see it regularly.
This is solid advice... I remember seeing a George Kollias video here on YT... where he explains he uses the twitching technique, and that you need to learn to control it...
gp19 if you watch him play he clearly isn’t twitching as you can easily observe huge full range of motion on his strokes, plus he is playing swivel as well. Maybe him saying that was a translation error from his native Greek.
I'm currently experiencing twitching in my right (strong) foot, it has NEVER happened before. I returned to drums after 12 years of not playing at all, practicing almost every day for almost 2 months. I could do 195 bpm in my right foot before the pause with completely relaxed, effortless motion with even strokes at a good volume. My left foot got much stronger and actually performs better than my strong foot during endurance exercises (usually 5 min). Twitching happens at any tempo, even at very low speeds (like 90-100 bpm), it is very frustrating...
when you said the problem i laughed out loud. definitely have had this thought
Thank you very much for this! I was twitching when i started and i thought, damn im really fast i just gotta control it, but i had some doubt about that too and now that i saw this vid im gonna abandon twitching asap
Shiverello smart. Most people get farther when they learn to play from the bottom up rather than attempting to control the top down.
,,,try reading say Ted Reed or Gil Breines books playing alternate bass drum In Time with metronome, that will give you control over the nervous twitch..
Hey Ryan-GREAT information-i never knew this, but it makes perfect sense! Is your spring tension loose or tight?...Thanks
Craig Purdie it’s fairly tight but not maxed out.
OK...then would one's leg be LESS likely to twitch if spring tension is very loose? H-m-m-m-m? Just a thought.
Craig Purdie maybe less likely to twitch but loose tension often results in slower overall speed and more fatigue because you’re essentially getting less rebound. It would be like playing a roll on the floor tom vs the snare. You just get less response. There are times when loose tension is helpful but single stroke speed is not usually one of those times.
I see that you are using the George Kollias heel rotation technic. that is best thing I've ever tried out .
Yeah, I didn't do a very good example of it here, but yes I use it quite a bit. It is pretty bad for your knees if you over do it though. Be careful.
Hmmmmm, i think i m doing that mistake as well. But i can get the"twitch" under controll, and can get pretty loud. On my right foot i can even switch between heel up and "twitching" without loosing strenght or control (that might be floating i guess?). It kind of feels like bouncing a basket ball, if that analogy makes sense. But i have great trouble getting that on my left (weak) foot and coordinating it properly with my right one. I feel like i m getting better at nailing the transission the more i practice, but it still seems like a long way to go.
Does floating feel like the pedal is moving on its own, but with controll?
Or does it feel more like playing every stroke by it s own, and you just need mad endurance and strength to get to 200+ bpm?
Your videos are very helpful and you re one of the few youtube drummers, who actually explain their technique properly, instead of just showing off. Thank you for that.
You can definitely learn to control that twitching motion and get power out of it, it just takes forever to get it start and stop on command. Might be a point of diminishing returns for a lot of drummers though, since there are so many other techniques to get that super-200 bpm 16th speed. My double bass speed goes through tempo phases I guess you'd call them, from whole leg motion during slow playing, from 140-200ish I use Wanja Groger's weird push pull thing, and anything above that morphs into the leg twitch. You can also use the 2 + 2 style heel toe if you want, its all viable if you practice it enough. Swivel technique does not work for me at all, and neither does slide foot, but I wouldn't saying anyones wrong for doing it.
Splimis that’s a good attitude to have. I oversimplify in the video slightly. It is theoretically possible to learn from a twitch, but so few people comparatively have been successful that it’s a bad idea statistically speaking. Many people have linked me to supposed successes and to my ear they sound out of time and uneven, so it’s a much smaller percentage than most people realize. Like very much next to impossible for the average guy. Heel toe is a good trick, but except in very few specific instances, it’s not a good substitute for single stroke mastery. It’s an addition to single stroke mastery as are all other types of strokes. Swivel is cool but if you can’t play straight, it’s worthless too... and I say that as a swiveler myself.
Well, now i know why i suck xD
Thanks alot man youre great :)
Lukas Hueber thanks. Always glad to tell people why they suck.
Ryan Alexander Bloom should i start to developing my heel up (full leg motion) speed and controll before i usemy ankles?
Lukas Hueber I would just because you don't want to have speeds that you can't play cleanly that are lower than speeds you can play. In other words holes in your abilities are worse than limits at the high end.
I have a serious problem with this and I think and I used to think I'm the only one.
Please share more exersices to control the twitch. I really need it
Thanks this really helped alot. When I try to play the floating technique I find it hard the play it slow and end up doing that twitch thing, any tips to help with that?
Thanks
The best tip I have is don't play the floating strokes slow. They are realistically only good for speeds upwards of 150 or 160 bp for 16ths... depending on your pedals settings, tuning, etc. This number isn't exact, but at some point you will just be playing too slowly for it to be effective. I also recommend doing my off-pedal exercises that I have on my channel and just building up your strength in the lower leg.
Ryan Alexander Bloom I have a question, love the video and it explains so much that is a very important part of being a drummer! In regards to getting more volume in general whether it is single or double pedal, what adjustments would you suggest I make to my pedals? I have Iron Cobra 3000 chain driven pedals. I generally speaking practice paradiddles as a part of my warm up routine, triplets, and single stroke alternating on both hands and feet. I honestly after watching this video know part of the problem is the twitching, but I am sure I need to adjust my pedals to the "sweet spot"; if can offer any advice I would be so thankful.
caster1877 I advise a nice long beater throw. Make sure you've got at least 6 inches from the head to the beater in the resting position. I'm not too familiar with the 3000 so you'll have to look at how to move this if you don't have the spacing right. Also use a tighter spring tension. Not all the way, but enough that it gives you a little push on the way up between strokes. Single strokes are going to be your most important skill. Above all else. So just working on consistent singles is the best thing you can do. I also recommend making sure you use a beater with a bit of heft to it. Light isn't necessarily good in this context. You can often add weight with what at first appears to be a memory lock for the beater length. Just move it up high under the beater head.
Wow someone made a video about it lol. Thank you I hate it when people do that shit.
Hmmm. I’m very traditional in my approach I do 32nd notes off of the drums constantly but... for some reason when I play certain pedals or even my own the wrong way I can’t play any of what I can do anymore. Literally I go from having the control of a pro to not being able to hold down 16ths properly. I know some of it is lack of practice but I feel after a year of really cracking down I should be able to do what I need to. Not including patterns ofcourse that’s the hard part or it should be.
ya there's no fast way to building speed but the journey there can be fun (i'm in the process) i like to do rudiments with just my feet and to balance myself i use two two foot long 2x4's and they help alot (i hold them like canes) good luck everyone !
I'm intrigued, you speak of deliberate strokes but when I'm playing heel up, using the downward pressure of my leg & muscles I'm not twitching per se but getting good hits, but I would not say it is very voluntary or deliberate. I'm not focusing on any individual movement, they just happen. It might be semantics but it has me wondering if I am doing heel up incorrectly. I can vary the speed and start and stop however I want. Thanks for the help I'm probably just overthinking this.
If you can control the speed easily and start and stop cleanly, I don't think you're doing what I'm describing as the mistake. Most people who are truly twitching can only play a very select range of speeds and often need a lot of time to get going. several strokes in they're not quite getting the tempo they are trying for. Most of them literally say "yeah I can play super fast but it takes me a second to start" or "yeah I can play super fast but only from 211-223bpm and its hard to coordinate wth my hands" stuff like that is usually the dead giveaway.
Damn, I thought the twitch was a good thing. Glad I found this video
Hard, but fair🤘🤘🤘
I like that good old Z Heavy Power Ride! :-)
I am getting a sharp burning pain in the tendon (I think) at the top of my foot. The soft part where foot meets the shin. Anyone ever experience this? Just above where the beater almost hits the foot.
Tips to being a better drummer: study and replicate Dan Searle from Architects.
Not to rip on Dan, but he isn't perfect. I'm certainly not either. Completely emulating a single drummer will just give your their same quirks, bad habits, and issues. Everyone has them. His are pretty easily visible when you watch him play, which doesn't diminish the fact that he is a good player. Just not a perfect model of exacting technical performance. Not sure that anyone is 100% the embodiment of the theoretical model of how drumming works... but Dan, while looking pretty good, has his own drawbacks to the techniques he uses. A lot of people call Jojo a technical monster, but his posture is pretty bad. Gadd is the master of groove, but he does some weird things and can't play like a metal drummer... so theres a yin and yang to everyone.
Weckl is pretty close these days, ergonomically at least.
Or Chris turner from oceans ate Alaska
@@RyanAlexanderBloom But Garstka is pretty much perfect, is he not? :P
Hey Ryan, can I use this for my senior speech video essay? Ill link you in the description.
I thought I replied to this but I don’t see my reply so I’ll just be on the safe side and say yes again.
33 twitches disagree with you, sir! Good video, I don't have this habit, but your advice on getting faster is great and I'm practicing this now to get faster with precision. I can hit 180-200 16th notes for short periods but with heavy music sometimes it's very explosive and sometimes displaced, and having that explosive , up to any speed or duration, on or off the beat, or in odd time grooves with sped up parts or tempo swings, with precision has proven most difficult for me personally. do you have any advice concerning this or some type of drill that helps?
DrumsPlayer DirtRacer the best solution is just time spent playing. The more you play the easier it gets. If you want a drill, put on a metronome and play through 8th, triplets, 16th, 16triplet, 32nd and then back down again. Maybe a few bars of each. Then up the click a couple and do it again. Then you can’t hit 32nd just chop that section off and keep going up in tempo. When you can’t hit 16th triplet chop that off and keep going up. When you can’t hit 16th you’re probably done... but you’ll effectively practice every conceivable speed within a 66bpm space so if you go like 134 to 200 like this you will have gotten pretty much every feel and every possible speed.
Ryan Alexander Bloom thanks dude, I play about an hour a day, at minimum, and the metronome helps thanks man!
My problem is different but i'm not sure if it's common.When I'm playing double pedal heel up I feel tired quickly and pain on the upper part of my thighs that comes from having to hold my feet up (like when you are sitting on a chair but holding both feet up to not touch the ground) and another problem that comes from this is I have to kind of bend backward to not lay much weight on my legs.It dosen't feel natural and its very frustrating can you please give an advise regarding this ?.Thank you very much
Ouarem Cracken that is common. Partially you just have to build up core strength to hold your legs. That takes time. You should really try NOT to lean back. Center yourself on the throne. One fix might be to make sure you are using a round throne and not a bike style seat. I have a whole video on why that is. Also make sure you are not sitting right at the edge. The more throne under you legs, the better. Scoot back a couple inches if you're near the front. Also you need to check your throne height. If your hips are not just a bit higher than your knees it makes double kick very hard. Sitting too low is the worst thing for you. Too high can be a problem as well. You should be shooting for your thighs being angled up from your knees just slightly more than parallel. If none of that helps then I don't know what else... other than building up strength.
There's a lot of Things I was unaware of ,I'm sitting almost in a 90 degrees angle and on the edge of the throne .Now I'm sure the issue comes from this ,cause when I play each foot alone it seems fine and faster cause my body is resting on the foot that's not working .
I've' been playing drums for more than 10 years and I settled for this position,now I have a big challenge in order to learn double pedal. I hope changing my position won't affect all what I learned through the years .Thank you very much your channel is very informative .
I don't know your body type so take no offense obviously but if you're holding a lot of weight in your legs in my experience it helped to lose some of it. I wasn't fat and was athletic but had very thick legs with muscle and some fat. I lost some weight, dropped a couple waste sizes and it helped my double bass endurance. May not apply to u.
I got myself to floating technique from that, but it takes a lot of time to get control
Iamsambu yeah it's a better use of your time not to mess with that from the start though. It really hinders your growth rate.
Ryan Alexander Bloom You're probably right, I have trained it for so long it would be dumb to quit it. Also what do you think of heel-toe technique on 16th notes, I think its a beast for triplets, but I have trouble getting my left foot steady.
Also FYI a comment to the DB muscle video, you can actually train your shin muscle with weights. Could be beneficial, I'm trying it out. You can also train your hip flexors which play a huge part in heel up technique:)
Iamsambu I am not aware of the proper weighted shin exercise. I've just never heard of it or seen it done. Nobody talks about it. I think heel toe is s good way to get a double but I don't think doubles are a good way to play double bass except occasionally for syncopated or non-continuous rhythms. Just blasting out heel-toe doubles for a while is really not as effective as singles in my opinion. Unless you trigger, but you still have to play really evenly. I know some people that can do it, but it doesn't sound right acoustic.
For the exercise put some weight on your shoes and lift your feet like you would on pedal. Do rep range between 25-30. You probably dont need it, but some people might. There is this guy wanja gröger on UA-cam who plays really fast and precise with heel-toe, and it sounds good.
Interesting. I've never seen that guy. The best doubles I've ever heard were from Virgil Donati, but they still sound pretty rough compared to singles. I used to have a student that could play like 250 16ths with heel toe but he couldn't play at all between 160 and 220.
I hit myself in the foot quite often when doing decently fast double bass, it's not a hard hit on the foot but more of a very light tap, is that good?
That's good that you're able, bad if you can't stop. You should have the control to not do it. I used to hit myself often. Now it only happens rarely, mostly on the left foot, only when going fairly slowly and trying to play really loud. A very specific instance.
,,,yes, twitches happen because they never practiced slowly and patiently controlling. Don’t go for speed go for control of the pedal.
ty
Is this a general beginner issue?
Also does it happen when the beater is an inch or two as shown?
littlebear2477 Yes this is generally a beginner issue, but I’ve also seen people struggle with this for long after they stopped being a beginner. Yeah the small inch or two is pretty much the majority of the issue.
Ryan Alexander Bloom great thanks
I don’t have a this thing issue, I have a rhythm problem when it comes to double bass or fast single pedal
Swivel can be done in any movement joe jordison play tip toe and look fkn good at it every persons foot is different. We only get the idea from others as we practices along we find our own way to do it
I remember when I used to play, I'd play heel up, with my legs at a 90 degree or more angle, and the head would bounce back at high speeds hard enough to hit my shin. After shows I'd have bruises on both my shins lol. That shit was LOUD (I never played with triggers) and could control consistently up to about 210 ish. Ended up over developing the leg muscles and having weak ankles, but oh well.
Aaron Dimoff wow, that is a really strange comment. I commend you for playing acoustic and hitting hard, but the rest of your comment is pretty weird. First and foremost being that you hit yourself in the shin enough to be bruised. You’re not the only person to say that, but when I made a video about how to avoid it, the majority of the comments were “how is that even a possible problem?” To which I have to respond, “I didn’t think it could be either, but people keep mentioning it” so I’m in the majority I think, who cannot conceive of that actually happening. But you are in the very real but small subset of drummers who it actually happens to. Also bass drum typically strengthens ankles, but you managed to avoid using yours it seems. That’s almost impressive on some level. 210 isn’t a bad speed to be comfortable with, so you seem like you were pretty accomplished for having a fairly odd set of circumstances around your playing... ones I can only vaguely imagine for myself.
Well to elaborate, I would say that my feet on the pedals would be behind the knees. Which means playing heel down at ALL is complete impossible, your achilles doesn't stretch that far. This also means that the vast majority of the kick motion was coming from the quads and calves, as the ankle is basically fully compressed, with a fully stretched achilles. Now I will say, that this basically ended up becoming more of a "floating" kick technique at high speeds, as I was able to play leaning forwards to keep balance, with no weight on the pedals. As I say, It's not terribly optimal to play that way, but I always had loud, consistent kicks, up to a reasonably fast speed.
Try sliding the pedals back far enough so that the foot is behind the knee, and see the result you get.
Aaron Dimoff yeah the result is I cannot play at all. Breaks one of my cardinal rules of kick pedal playing... ankle ahead of knee, it’s the first thing I teach.
Ha! Well touche sir. I'll just say that, while I'm not an example of this myself, Glenn Gould was one of the greatest pianists who ever lived, and he broke basically all the rules about posture, hand position, and physical technique taught in classical piano for hundreds of years. He played like a deformed hunchback, and he played magnificently. *shrug*.
im not a pro at all, but i can agree, its really important to get a clean motion into your feet. also, try to keep them at their position and move them conciously. i feel yall, its super frustrating, but thats the prize we should be willing to pay right?
To a degree you can actually control the twitching. That's what Mangini does with his hands, although it's hard to tell for sure, since he either doesn't explain it very well or doesn't want to explain it well.
Just because Mangini does something doesn't make it a good idea for the common man. Twitch all you want and you'll never be that fast, realistically. Dude is a freak. But also most people will not develop control with a twitch. Maybe some, but it's a better idea in either case to just learn to play for real first. I guarantee Mangini is faster than I am without any twitch on hands or feet. So, when you're that good, you can break the rules. and people who are that good don't need to watch my videos anyway.
What may seem like a twitch from guys like Mangini may really just be a fast ankle stroke.
Can't the twitching be used for a ghost note-ish effect on the bass? If that makes any sense…
I guess, yes. But I don't know of any examples of ghost note double bass passages from songs. You are welcome to show me one (I haven't heard every song obviously), or to create one and possibly be the sole inventor of that style. Its actually fairly rare in rock, metal, or any loud genre that would use double bass for any bass drum notes to even slightly less loud than their neighbors with a single kick. Sometimes there is a little bit of nuance to the kick volume, but not much and not to the level of a true ghost note.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom I don't know of any examples, no. ^^" I'm still a beginner and I was indeed tempted to use the twitching more than once when I struggled with doubles, so your video helped me a little.
@@Lyendith glad to help. I know I'm never on the cutting edge of music. Most of my bands have been throwback old school metal of one kind or another. But at least back in the 80s and early 90s people really had to play their instruments. that's where I'm coming from. No tricks, no cheats, no shortcuts. Hit hard, use the real and legit techniques that have been around for hundreds of years. That's all.
My problem is only volume I can do the actual technique and have control it’s not twitching what I do but whenever I record it’s really dry or proper but quiet
Jack Flaumenhaft volume comes from the speed of the beater impacting the head. Bass drum strokes have a limited space in which to operate, unlike sticks, so you have to essentially punch the beater in with maximum explosive velocity to generate volume.
Ok I can work with this
Do you believe some of the new night tech pedals, will allow drummers to play allot faster, Cause that's what the shoppies are saying, I would think a good player could go as fast, on almost any pedal. IM, glad you brought this up, in sure it's bad for you to do this, twitching thinh, I tried it a while ago, along with, all the intermittent consistemcy, flamming, and other bullcrap, oh a nd the beater being only a few inches away on the back stroke,
ryan B Drummers like George Kollias were playing extremely fast on whatever pedals were available 15 years ago. So it has always been possible. It seems like the newest pedals cater to double strokes and playing softly into triggers. That being said a lot of people really talk up Trick as actually good, not just light weight and longer. But I haven’t really ever tried them myself. I can’t stand axis or demons personally. They seem to make it harder to play cleanly and in time.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom thanks 🙂
I was ina double bass mood so I was like “hey I know how to play double bass let’s see if I’m doing stuff wrong or if I can make my life easier with mental notes” and I searched it up like “tips and tricks for double bass” but I play the STRING double bass (aka the big clonky one that’s much less convenient that a bass guitar 💀so I just watched this whole thing for nothing in my favor but it’s helpful probably for people who do play drums 💀
You know I think the same exact tip can be applied to the string bass as well. Whether it’s tremolo bowing or fast finger picking or whatever, twitching will never be as precise or sustainable as working up the speed and accuracy from the bottom in a relaxed and deliberate manner.
But if you use triggers you can turn up the sensitivity on the sound module
A, that’s a crutch and basically means you can never play acoustic at any useful volume. B, just because the trigger picks it up doesn’t make it even. A lot of triggered drummers who play twitchy small strokes play very fast but it just sounds like random blurs of notes, not clean subdivisions of 16th or 32nds. That’s bad at any volume.
valid point
David Diepold look at his double bass technique
God advise. But what dorks are playing that way? 😀 Never seen one.
Edgar Ondruks lucky you. I see it regularly because I teach so I’m around more beginners than most.
lol I thought it would be a helpful video but thankfully I am not dumb enough to think a natural leg twitch would be useful to use while playing.
What would be useful to see is how to stop your thighs (by the knee) from tensing when playing double bass. Obviously I am a double bass beginner asking such a question; I have been drumming for over 20 years but I only got into double bass about 2 years ago so It's a slow learning curve after all the single kick.
Some great feedback I have gotten from former teachers is to do hand rudiments on double kick, and also to relax and play slow, but is there any special way to play heel up since it is a quick tempo, without tensing up?
Actually this is an old video so I am going to message you if they still allow that but thanks for your great videos. This one is just funny to me how someone could think that the twitch would be useful
Not being dumb is pretty rare, hence why I have to make videos that seem obvious like this.
I TWITCH FOR BLASTBEATS AND IT GETS ME BY EVEN THOUGH I KNOW ITS WRONG, 3 YRS PLAYING DRUMS
How much psi does your leg have.
no idea whats realistic. I mean in a general sense a leg can generate 10x your bodyweight in force, briefly. divided by foot surface area...maybe 20 square inches, thats like 85psi for me if I jumped and slammed down as hard as you could on the pedal. In real playing... no idea what I normally use.
I also used this, and i found out that the most you do it, it will make it really difficult to play slow or using heel up. So if you use this, stop inmediatly and never use it again.
...eventually? I'm stuck at a very slow tempos with double bass for more than a decade. And no matter how long I try to practice, I'm not going much faster than ..well really slow (like Burzum's "Ea, Lord of the Deeps" slow). I am totally frustrated with this, but well, I guess I'm just shit...
My philosophy is it’s not about how long you practice, it’s about pushing the limit in short bursts. You have to develop a faster muscle contraction like an athlete. But of course still using the full range of motion.
Thanks, I always thought I could the twitch but now I believe its only LIES!
haha back to the drawing board
Wow I didn't even know about twitching. It never happened to me.
Not everyone makes this mistake, its actually not even the majority of players, its just that of the dozens of major mistakes you could make, this comes up slightly more often than most. It is very possible, and nice, to never have this problem.
I use full leg combined with ankle for like 0-180 Bpm and from 180/190 to 220 i use what you call twich motion but i feel like its controlled and i get big strokes not like when you show it.. i dont even need to trigger it..
Actually, in my 40 years of playing double bass drums, that developing the nerve twitch can be of great benefit. The small muscle that runs down the shin portion of your leg has to be developed and over time you can control the twitch and make it louder. Using this technique, you can avoid using the pedal destroying "swivel" technique and still play as fast.
oh double bass..
that's how I used to warm up to play fast. I would twitch enough to the point where my feet started gaining power because I became used to the twitch after 1min or so. But because it was a twitch, any time I would pause and then try to play again I would completely mess up because the twitch was something random, it was only a techinique which played evenly after long periods of twitching.
I think id like to harvest that twitching motion. If one can learn to build power and control would be like a super power. YKWIM? Effortless non exausting unhumanly light speed double bass drumming. 😂
So that's why you couldn't hear the double bass in Ride The Lighting and Kill Em All...
GoodKevin111 I honestly didn’t know there was supposed to be double bass on kill em all. Is that true? I figured he just didn’t know how.
ua-cam.com/video/mKU54vTt-6k/v-deo.html
This is why triggers are cheating becuz they are as you said, "not drumming, twitching."
it has nothing to do with triggers
Power and control needs practise time and gained after some months of practising or playing !
Shit, saw this one too late. I practised it quite a lot (only on my right foot) and well although I really did learn to control it a bit its actually really useless now...
I learned to play Eighths with my right foot between 220 and 230 bpm. I tried it with a metronome and its really on time and loud enough. But always if I go below that, I start losing control and at about 190 bpm I get faster again without wanting to. I realized I never would reach the 160 or 180 bpm using this method.
So I tryed to learn it the normal way, started very slow at 100 bpm where can play Eights for five minutes without a problem. But then my right foot gets faster, won't calm down and I got to start over again. I thought maybe thats okay, when would I play the exact same thing for five minutes? But at 130 bpm its getting worse, with me only controlling it about a minute. At 160 bpm its 20 secounds and at 180 bpm I can't play at all. And I don't know what to do about it now...
Panophobia yeah you kind of just have to start over with a bigger motion. Your muscles can learn to do what you want them to do but it will be harder now that you’ve trained them opposite. Working slower on the motion is probably your best bet. You can’t hope for speed until you’re playing technically the way you’d like.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom Bigger motion sounds good. Should I play with the full leg intead of my ankles more?
Leg vs ankles is mainly a function of what you’re playing and how fast. Both are good useful techniques.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom Okay. Thanks for your advice, guess I will have to be very patient then and practise a lot...
You probably need to work your hip flexor more and get stronger with it for the slower tempos than the ankle comes in at faster tempos where the hip can no longer keep up.
somehow Aaron kitcher was able to make it even and fast as hell
Fast is easy, even is really hard. It’s possible and there are a couple of examples... but it’s unlikely for the average player to figure it out in a reasonable time frame. It’s a better idea, statistically, for people to learn to play for real. It will give you success more often and more consistently.
Any thoughts on this one?
ua-cam.com/video/aB_4-zq02F4/v-deo.html
I play up to 0-180 with my whole leg/lower leg combined. But for faster u do like Alex Micklewright and YES you can get control over the "Twitch motion" coz that is just how it starts then it transforms into a controlled one.. Maybe not for you but for some others like myself. And i long powerstrokes not like you show with the tapping close to the skin. U just have to relax the twitch to led the beater far back before the stroke happens again.. Anyways worked for me so im good..
I don't know what you do, but in that video you've linked the guy clearly states that he learned by playing heel up and then deliberately transitioning to heel down before moving to his current technique which is a classic floating stroke and quite clearly not a twitch. He doesn't ever say he twitches and it doesn't look like twtching. He is very fast, but all the notes are big (kind of) and even. This comes from his stated playing of heel down strokes and a lot of work, not from twitching.
im doing the same thing but i started as a twitch and then it evolved with time to a controlled big motion stroke but still the feel is twitch but you let the pedal have more space to come back not like you show it. But i dont think you have spent enough time with that either to have any say on that teq..In the video "Kind of like a Nervous twitch" is the exact words he is saying trying to explainb it at 2:44. And alot of people he talked to feel the same way. So for you to lay out it in a bad way might be wrong i think. Sure the Twicth you show in this video is not how it suppose to look so for that you are right but if you sit long enough annd try to like combing twitch to a motion and when your mind and muscles accept it you will be able to dot in the notes to a 16th note pattern annd when you do you will be totally relaxed and can sit like that all day..
Yeah he says that but only right after saying he did all of the correct things to play in a normal and controlled manner first. I guess you can interpret that how you want, but I don't know of anyone famous and reasonably good who actually started by purely twitching and wasn't practIcing in an effective and technically correct manner like this guy also says he was. I have been shown other examples of guys and their playing was horribly sloppy...the commenters linking me to them always disagree about what level of precision counts and that sounds like BS to me. One other thing to note is that while this guy isn't purely twitching, he also couldn't play without triggers. You say you can, perhaps you're better at it than he is, but that limits the usefulness of his admittedly impressive speed. All I have to say is that drummers like Kollias, Hoglan, Lombardo, Roddy, Verburen, Donati, Lang, Minneman, etc. do not twitch wether or not they use triggers.
Many guys use triggers coz its safe way to get thru the wall of guitars etc. If ur not in a big band that have their own soundguy and ur gonna play at a club u will 90% of the times get a noob soundguy and ur BD is not gonna sound anything no matter how hard you stomp.. And using mic in 200+ tempos is not that nice.. Often become blurry.. Many reasons to use trigers if you play metal and to say its cheat is like saying a guitarist is cheating by using dist guitars. The "trigger=cheat" guys i give nothing for. They say u can just lighly tap the bd to get the sound.. yes sure but u think its easy to do it so soft and steady at 240bpm? i woulnt be able.. The strokes are often more than enough for Mic´s but i would 100% choose triggers anyway coz 100 other reasons..The strokes in his video are also not soft they are like as powerful as u can get using lowerleg muscles witch are much smaller groups.. (and btw derek ,kollias used and use triggers depends on where and what they gonna play.. Kollias did a clinic here in sweden just the other week using triggers..
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying nobody can use triggers. Kollias, Hoglan, Roddy, they always use triggers. Always. They also know how to play loudly. They don't need the triggers to play, they just prefer the sound. I'm talking about other guys who literally could not play a gig without them at any speed because they hit baby soft. And for a guitar analogy, if you turn of distortion, a decent guitar player will still sound good. Yes they need it for the tone of the band, but they can play without and all the notes come through cleanly. Paul Gilbert can sweep on a clean channel and it sounds clear as a bell. Distortion is a tone choice, not a crutch. Triggers are also a tone choice but many metal drummers use them as a crutch. Nick Barker hits like a little girl and triggers his snare and toms too to make up for it. Gene Hoglan hits like a 300 pound monster that he is...and just happens to use triggers. Big difference.
54 people with triggers disagree with you
He was hated cause he said the truth. I just discovered after fuckin 8 years of twitching like Jessie Pinkman that i had absolutely no calves control. In fact, my calves are hypotrophied. Only now I've realized that it was calves city. Gotta train them calves.
I had always listened to drummers like you for ages and had never been able to get fast as they always told me that trying to control the twich was a bad idea. Then I came across Marthyn Jovanovic and he has been the only guy has been able to help me and guess what, the technique he teaches is based on controlling such twich. There are tons of drummers now improving their bass drum skills just following this video: ua-cam.com/video/0tpr6CVQFPw/v-deo.html
To me the trick was to understand not to work against the pedal and that is very difficult if you just start slowly in a fully controlled way as you contract your muscles during both the down and the up stages; instead if you start playing fast straight away you have to introduce from the beginning a tension/relaxation movement taking advantage of the pedal springs and you can work on the control of this quick motion.
3 things: Thing 1, Marthyn plays too softly to be useful for things like metal. He needs triggers or very specific mic placement and volume assistance to boost his volume to a reasonable level, and I disagree with that as a viable drumming strategy (unless he simply isn't playing his loudest in this video... but I'm just going off what it shows there). His soft playing is musically limiting to only situations where triggers and/or a PA system are available. Thing 2, he is not twitching in the manner that I am describing. He is playing much larger motions than I am criticizing other people for doing (just not full volume either, which is why I still disagree somewhat, but it is not the exact problem I am describing in my video, he is much better than that). Thing 3, I fully agree that you need to work with the pedal motion. Fighting the pedal is a huge problem that is entirely its own issue that can be resolved without playing little baby stroke or twitching. Many people, professional drummers included, can play full volume strokes and work with the pedal springs constructively. If you've ever watched George Kollias play you will notice he moves his beaters fully forward and back on each stroke, even at ridiculous speeds. He is not babying the pedal or playing at a dynamic of ppp... even though I know he uses triggers, he is actually capable of playing without them. Similarly Gene Hoglan plays loud full strokes into the drum, despite the fact that he usually uses triggers. He didn't always. He played acoustically in the beginning of his career and knows how to do it. The analog here being a guitar player who is so used to playing with distortion that handing him an acoustic guitar he can no longer play anything. That would be ridiculous. Sure it sounds different, but if you NEED amplification to play you haven't learned the instrument. Same with drums.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom many thanks for your detailed reply and explanation.
But... What if I am live streaming on "Twitch" while drumming? Does that count?
Is Lars Ulrich twitching?
Blindfish no he moves his whole leg in a sort of heavy club-footed stomp.
Kevin paradis, uses twitching to play double bass, his one foot blast beats up to 270 and more is pretty tight !
CultureShockGaming I just watched him play through a Decrepit Birth song and it was really sloppy and 100% trigger dependent. So, that just validates my point in this video. The twitch is uncontrollable and too quiet. Kevin looks like a good drummer but he can't actually play as fast as he thinks. Not clean and definitively not acoustic.
Kevin Paradis is an incredible drummer. This Ryan Alexander Bloom guy talks bad about Kevin because he's jealous. Ryan Bloom will never have the speed or control that Kevin Paradis has. There is nothing wrong with triggers! When you play drums at super high speeds it is very useful to use triggers on your bass drum. Ryan Bloom must dislike Technical Death Metal or he just
doesn't want people to play double bass faster than him. Well sorry, bud. Because a lot of people already can play double bass faster than you already!
I think Kevin is a good drummer, I just think he is playing a bit over where he is actually clean and capable. I'm not jealous of him. I would like to have his speed, but I have much more control at my highest speed (even though its much lower) than he does at his, so I'll take that. His double bass is very inconsistent at the higher speeds because of exactly what I talk about in this video. That decrepit birth cover I watched was pretty poorly executed from a double kick perspective. Its cool that he can move that fast, but he would need to be quantized to sound even. Even with triggers, quantization is still totally cheating. I've been quantized in the past and I don't even recognize my own playing. Its not me. Also, I like technical death metal and I understand why some people use triggers. I still don't especially think they're a great invention. Tuning your drums correctly and playing with good technique can overcome a lot of the issues that people use triggers to overcome. Yes, I am not the fastest on youtube, or in my state, or even in my city. I personally know dudes who are much faster. Being the best isn't my goal. My goal is to teach other people to play correctly so they can play without triggers, with triggers, with or without mics, fast, slow, or anywhere else... but clean and correct. As a teacher, I am always interested in doing things right rather than being the best. Most people will not be world class drummers, but they can play technically correctly and with the versatility to play in many environments and that will make them good, useful drummers who can get gigs. Thats what I am teaching and when I see something that runs counter to that I have no problem pointing it out.
I think that not everyone has the same chances right at the start anyway, i've been watching you among other drummers (like Marthyn Jovanic ex-belphegor) i had to struggle during 15 years, going from full leg, to twitching, finally being able to control everything with my calves, shin and hip flexors very recently after months of 1.750 kg ankle weights on each legs endurance everyday.. to finally end up with an elongation at first that fully recovered and now after a rough Week and too much training maybe an achile tendinitis (as i am too afraid to go back on consultation for my doctor to confirm my doubts)… While the first drummer of my band who never practiced outside of the Fucking rehearsal and who was overall lazy could already top from 100 to 180 bpm after not even 1 year and a half of playing !.. And i am supposed to Believe everyone start with the same chances ? This is just bullshit.. No one has the same ankle flexibility right from the start, some guys out there got the motion in a year or so, never put that much effort or time into practicing, and they're the one who get it right?, Well i tried and practiced much harder than they did ..Seems like double bass is'nt for everyone after all ...
Sorry, I have to disagree. I built my double bass by both working down from the twitch and up to that tempo and i did achieve volume and control. You can transform that involuntary twitch into a controlled contraction of your calf muscles.
I’ve heard of maybe 3 or 4 other people who have said this. I’ve also seen many, many, many more try and fail. If you did it then that’s great, but I still have to make the generalization that it isn’t a good idea because of how often people can’t get there. If only 1 in 20 can do it it’s not really a good suggestion. Even if 1 in 10 can do it, still a bad idea for most.
@@RyanAlexanderBloom Thanks for your insightful reply! That's a good point, I haven't really considered that this might just work for me.
Actually you can control twitching and you can get volume as well... I did it...and now I'm playing quite good with both feet,and I started with twitching and develop more and more power and control with time... eventually everyone develop his own technique and as long as it works it doesn't matter which one it is,somebody uses heel up,somebody heel down, somebody swivel it doesn't matter... just practice and be persistent
Of the 54000 people who watched this video, maybe 5-10 have said, like you, that they learned by twitching. Thats 1 or 2 in every 10,000. or 0.0001%. even if it was 100 people and 90 didn't comment, thats still under 1%. If it worked for you thats great, but the vast majority 99.999 percent learn best by starting with larger controlled motions. I have taught thousands of private lessons to hundreds of students and I see what works for the majority. If teachers didn't pick out a method that works more often than not, then what would we be good for? whats the point of any technique then? just letting each person do their own thing is nice touchy-feely free-will self-made utopian paradise sounding idea, but its not how instruments are taught. If everyone was self-taught and just did what they felt was right, a few people would become competent and many more would just quit in frustration. giving people a solid and tested path to success is not a bad thing. even if a few outliers found their own path.
Is he recording with a blackberry lol
no the the feather method is used with triggers as long as it gets it done who cares about method for many the feather works fine
Only being able to play with triggers is pretty limiting. Can never jam audibly without your triggers and brain. Can never play other people’s acoustic kits. Knowing how to play for real is always a better idea. It’s like when electric guitar players can’t play anything on clean channel. Needing the distortion to play just means their playing is sloppy and inconsistent. Same for drums.
Talks about mistakes<
Wears boots
FFS ENABLE AUTOFOCUS
The misconception is that fast double bass is a requirement for good metal or rock music. This is wrong. It is far more important to have clear and audiable, yet slow double bass technique, than a "fast", inaudiable and sloppy one. Find a band that appreciates these values and stay clear of those who rush ahead.
Learning double bass is like learning to ride a bike or learning to swim; it seems impossible from the get go, but by using the proper techniques you'll understand how it works. The more you do it, the better and better you get at it, to a point where you don't understand how you ever were incapable of doing it in the first place.
In the end, the more you practice different techniques or styles other than double bass, the more you can compensate in your playing to make it fun or interesting while you're waiting for your double bass skills to improve. Get the book Stick Control from Amazon and practice paradiddles with your hands and feet. You won't regret it.