As an autistic individual, I've always related to Data on a strangely intimate level. So much of his character, especially the modeling seen here (folding and unfolding of the arms to imitate what may be seen as correct social behaviour), is reminiscent of classic ASD symptoms. His purely logical thought processes, and desire to understand social nuances, demonstrate how someone with Asperger's Syndrome might approach and perceive the world (although to a mechanical extreme). I've been called "robotic" many times, yet I never made the obvious connection, until just now.
I'm so glad you said that! I have Asperger's myself and I relate to Data as well. Both my dad and my sister have said that I talk like he does sometimes. I also tend to take things literally and have a hard time understanding people sometimes. Data is such a great character and I love him so much. ^.^ Also, Brent Spiner once talked about this at a convention and said he was glad that his portrayal of Data was able to help so many people on the spectrum. :)
I thought it was very endearing how Geordi stopped doing whatever he was doing and gave Data all of his attention immediately after Data said something as concerning as having thought of terminating his own life... good friend
And in real life most people would listen but carry on with what their doing .. In a sense really only paying little attention .Thats whats wrong with alot of humans these days. Aghh to live in the 23 century.
FreezinFury because the concept of someone you know having been suicidal is generally not as revelatory. I look forward to a world we’re that is a shocking revelation.
This is why the Picard show doesn't really work. Geordi and Data were best friends, not Jean Luc. And if Picard was going tearing around the galaxy for anything relating to Data, LaForge should have been leading that. Its as if the writers never watched tng.
@@lilithdemonia74 I feel like they never really DID watch any other Star Trek show before. Not only because of the reason you stated, there's so much overpowering violence in Star Trek Picard, so much gone wrong with the Romulan Empire.
@@lilithdemonia74 RLM said it best. They seemed to have just watched the movies because if you do it seems like Picard and Data are two peas in a pod. Thats because they marketed best
@@lilithdemonia74 TNG was lightning in a bottle. It was the right cast and the right crew in the right place at the right time. It almost didn't even happen. I mean imagine TNG without Sir Patrick Stewart. You know, the guy Gene Roddenberry actively resisted hiring. I think folks who are all up in arms about the first season of Picard need to rewatch the first season of TNG. Listen to Tasha talk about drugs and rape gangs. Or watch a guy's head literally explode in Conspiracy. It took TNG literally years to find their footing, and folks complain about the first ten episodes of Picard like it's the worst thing to ever happen to Star Trek. TNG, put simply, just wouldn't work now. First and foremost, because Sir Patrick Stewart only came back to the role because they were going to go in a different direction with the character. Yeah, Geordi was Data's friend. And I would have liked to see Geordi again. But Picard is a show about Picard. And his relationship with Data has always, always been a complex and compelling one. Far more complex than simple friendship.
SW Dad But STP is not a show about Picard, any more than it is Star Trek. No one working on the show seems to know the franchise or characters, least of all Picard, including Stewart. It should never be measured against a series relaunch from the 1980’s. Higher expectations are totally reasonable, especially with decades of awareness and experience and building resources and competency. This should’ve been more like season 26 of modern trek, not a clumsy first season of sub-mediocre ideas, and it should’ve shown the most care and craftsmanship of any show before it. If they’d approached it as a new TNG trilogy it could’ve been the best 9 hours of Trek ever made. It isn’t. It’s insultingly bad, lazy, unrecognizable and mean. No offense to those who can enjoy it, but we all deserve better. The quality of modern trek is appalling.
Notice how brent spiner decides to mirror geordis body language, when geordi crosses his arms data looks at him and crosses his, when geordi opens his arms data opens his and goes in closer
oh, I didnt notice that, thank you for pointing it out, thats hillarious. Such is from what I understand it, actually a common behavior to do, mimicing the gestures of people around you, something data would mimic!
And if you really watch, he never quite gets it. Just LITERALLY mirrors it, by holding his hands in the same positions but doesn't lock them the way anyone that's really doing it does. Looks PAINfully awkward. And stands as one more of those minable moments of STNG.
I don’t remember this episode, so the arm-cross/imitation may have been relevant to a story aspect, but without that knowledge here, it may have just been Brent Spiner trying to get LeVar Burton, or someone off-stage, to laugh
This is one of the reasons I enjoy Star Trek in general, especially Next Gen. So often, the writers would take a common but difficult problem, and put it through the cultural and psychological filter of a different species...and thereby come to a different understanding of it. Possibly even the same understanding, but seen from a different angle.
agreed. and it is this element which I have found lacking in the newest iterations of the franchise. these attempts at understanding the greater human condition were and intentional and integral part of what Star Trek was (and one of the many reasons why I hate when people compare Trek and Star Wars). the movies do little to nothing to do this and although it could be argued that the previous films didn't always follow this dynamic, the appreciation for those characters and settings that did are what made the movies possible. the new star trek films are backwards for this.
Problem: Friends are being attacked by a superior race. Trek Humans: Mediate a sincere peace deal but make sure both sides understand that the other is making equally unpleasant concessions. Klingons: Fight enemies... if enemy is too easy to beat, have many laughs at friends expense. If enemy is strong, thank friend for introducing a worthy foe. Vulcans: gauge the threat of the new enemy. If they are inferior still to Vulcan tech, leave the friends to sort it out on their own with full knowledge that your own race had been actively suppressing the rate of friend’s technological development. Andorrans: Stalk friend as they go after new enemy, start a mining consortium, offer enemy a banger of a deal on valuable Archerite... and when threatened, leave the system slowly because the Andorian Mining Consortium runs from nobody.
@@freshoutofcrabs Not just the new films, the new shows too. Both Discovery and Picard are both pessimistic, melodramatic schlock. Not Star Trek at all.
Its what literally happen to us, absurdly huge amount of connections are created and destroyed in early childhood. I think its where authors found the inspiration for this scene. We did kinda die many times before we had any sense of personal permanence. Modes of thinking and existing we dont even remember.
Except it doesn't work like that... I wish it did. How I wish it did. It would be more accurate to describe it as a feedback loop that always runs in the background, interfering with system functions. You can never really predict how, when, and the intensity of this feedback loop. It is just always lurking in the background, affecting everything you try to do. You can sometimes deal with it on your own, sometimes others can help reroute and alleviate it for a while (therapy), and you could use an anti-virus program to lessen its effects, but has debilitating effects of its own (anti-depressants). But it never really goes away. It is a challenge that cannot be totally overcome, an obstacle you can't truly avoid... and if that feedback loop gets to be too much, makes all your system functions impaired, destroys relationships and your career around you, and causes extreme suffering, sometimes you are willing to do whatever it takes just to make that feedback loop stop, to just not have to try and overcome or avoid an obstacle that your truly can't. You can't just cure suicidal depression by pushing a button or changing a perspective. It can help, and it is a great exercise, but it isn't a cure and most of the time it isn't very effective. :(
@@Rodshark75 Exactly. Data's thought that he could just shut himself off and start over shows that he didn't consider the finality of a living being committing suicide. I know the writers were trying to tackle the subject in such a way as to not make suicide seem at all reasonable, but I think anyone who has legitimately considered it an option would consider this scene inaccurate at best.
Not really. If you have a good reason to kill yourself, that means that the obstacles/challenges are unpleasant, and the act of 'overcoming' them is precisely what is unpleasant about it, and they may not be problems that can be beaten, but unpleasant things to suffer through, and then logically, continued existence becomes a cost-benefit analysis. Going to any length to find some excuse to satisfy your survival instinct is not logical, it is emotional, and I resent them using a supposedly emotionless android to try to put weight behind the delusion that it is logical and not emotional.
And damn near perfect advice too. I'm speaking as someone who's attempted suicide twice an has been hospitalized five times total for those and three times of suicidal ideation.
I feel like Data is one of the most interesting characters ever created for a TV show not just for TNG but just in general-it was always fascinating to watch him try and understand humanity while becoming such a beloved character for this show.
You don't even have to limit it to TV. He's one of the great triumphs of character writing in all fiction-he directly engages with the audience without any need for fourth wall references or interactivity, and always to the end of helping the viewer gain a better understanding of themselves. That's something even Joseph Campbell would marvel at.
Just shows Brent Spiners acting skill that he can stay in character when folding his arms to imitate Geordi - he looks so awkward, almost like when you try to fold your own arms but the opposite way around, just little stuff like that adds to Data
The thing they missed on this is that people who are suicidal, don't want to die. They want to live, but they are so desperate for an escape from suffering. If they had touched on that aspect... no never mind. They should probably touch on mental sickness before going to that.
V Guyver They could've easily covered it with Tasha Yar and her horrific back story. Or any worn torn, or corrupt, or genocidal bad guy story arc. Nevermind the fact that the people commiting suicide are actually Star Treks core audience, white males. No, no, instead Star Trek further pushes white guilt throughout the shows and when they do talk about suicide it's not even about a white guy.
It's a permanent solution to what may be a temporary problem. What if 3 months from that low point, some one was to find their life completely altered for the better.. wouldn't it be worth sticking around?
People who are suicidal don't see their problems as temporary. They identify their problems as permanent traits - "I am in crippling debt which even the lottery couldn't fix." "I am in constant and increasing pain from a health condition that continues to worsen until it kills me." "My existence causes those I love to suffer because they empathize with me and spend their money to provide for me." "I learned nothing of value in my early life and have no means to become productive or self-sufficient, nor any path to acquire those skills." - for them, still being alive is a permanent problem, and all other solutions are temporary. Nobody can accuse suicidal people of having not put the thought into their problems. The advice for suicidal people to "just stick through it, it'll be okay" is like if you advised a normal person to just keep letting the poisonous snake bite them because it will eventually run out of venom. It tells the suicidal person you know nothing about their problems, how they feel, and are just trying to seem wise.
Get a helmet, problem solved. Seriously though, I'm only offering some words of hope to anyone reading this thread going through hard times. If you're above that, hey, just ignore it. If someone's on a bridge about to jump, I want to tell them something to come off that rail they're standing on. Are you really going to fault me for that and say I'm just trying to sound wise? I should just walk past them? Of course, I want to hear what they have to say, understand their unique set of problems, but this is a youtube comment section, I'm not speaking to anyone specifically, it's for the general public. Yeah, for you, it comes across as platitudes because you've heard it all before or something, but for others it might resonate. That'd be great if it did. Read the first paragraph of my previous comment, I'm actually agreeing with you, but you don't even realize it because you're just being negative and argumentative.
The relationship between Data and LaForge is a microcosm of the mission of Starfleet: to seek out and understand the diversity of life in the universe. Each does literally that when he labors to understand the other. That is close to a definition of compassion. I think that valuing life in its diversity and curiosity about it is a virtue, perhaps the greatest virtue, and I think that's why Federation culture seems so noble. I also think it's what makes the franchise so enduring. It's not the "swashbuckling." I think some people at CBS will never get that.
He's copying Geordi. People actually do tend to subconsciously mirror each other when interacting, especially friends, but he's doing it deliberately and exaggeratedly, for comedic effect.
This scene is a huge deal. Geordi applied his full attention to Data when Data shared how he could "empathize" with having thought of suicide. The mental health conversation, and the attention of concern for the safety and self preservation of a friend is absolutely amazing. I'm a 2 time suicide attempt survivor, I'm also a combat veteran with severe PTSD and depression. This has a very interesting appeal to me because the are the final frontier. For my job Backpacking, rock climbing, mountaineering and such are our frontiers, and where we are able to confront our own limitations and through conversation and experience. This is super cool.
There’s times when we all faced similar situations, challenges and problems that make suicide the “easy” option vs roughing it through.. Usually it’s better to stop, take a break, go to the bathroom, freshen up and try again, with a difficult problem, or talk to someone else to hear you out. Just by being honest and heard can do wonders.
I've always liked the relationship Geordi and Data shared, they seemed to be able to talk about pretty much anything and you could tell Data always took what his friend told him to heart, I miss shows like this.
An innocent little muffin who came within milleseconds of vigilante killing Kivas Fajo in "The Most Toys"... But the hobbitses doesn't has to know about that does they precious
Data basically just described what life is like for a lot of teenagers (myself included). Having to constantly learn new social norms, having to readjust and watching when a mistake causes it all to fall apart. Then wondering if the only way to win at this game is to just not play at all. I still think there are days when death would solve all of my problems and all I have is the fact that I'm too afraid to die to keep me from "shutting myself down" and starting over.
The problem is, you don't get to start over in that sense. Once your lights go out, as far as science can tell, there's nothing there. There's no way to start over in that sense. You can start your living situation over, sure. get new friends, say goodbye to old ones, change your style, your tastes, explore new possibilities... In fact, i'd say that's really what happens in teenage years. You go from who you were as a kid, to this person who is trying to find their clique, and then after your teenage years you become someone else. Hopefully a balance of the best of both. The best thing that younger people can realize as fast as possible is that only one person on this Earth can truly help you when it comes to matters interior. You. You do have the ability to change your situation, or at the very least how you look upon the situation. The complexities of socialising are enormous, but one must own their responsibility for their choices as much as they must realize they simply cannot control the way other people will respond or react. Toss of the dice.
*sigh* I love how everyone is trying "disprove" my statement. Am I the only one aware of the increase in suicides among teenagers? That's what this clip is about and unlike an android that can calculate the outcome of his decision, most teenagers only have a forming human brain and therefore can't always see past the decision to "start over". In fact my statement is proven by the fact that the people who responded to my statement clearly didn't take that into consideration before typing.
I think one of the biggest mistakes that adults can make with kids, whether they be parents or educators, is believing that kids process thoughts and emotions the same way that they do. Part of our job in raising a child is to help children to process things like loss, grief, emotional pain in appropriate healthy ways. It is really not an easy job..but it is a noble one. and being part of watching a child become a healthy happy man or woman is one of the most rewarding things you can do.
This is why I'm still not reinstalling my Windows after about 4 years, even though it's running very slowly by now. Reinstalling is the weak way out, real men face the lags! actually I'm just lazy
I had a Windows Vista test box long ago that I didn't update or patch (for testing purposes). It eventually became so buggy that I believe it somehow formed sentience. Once it realized what it was, I think it formatted itself out of shame.
I too have been in this situation, feeling that I cannot overcome, cannot win. But I am still here, because the only way to actually lose is to stop playing.
"I want to live, however briefly, knowing that my life is finite. Mortality gives meaning to human life, Captain. Peace, love, friendship. These are precious, because they cannot endure. A butterfly which lives forever is really not a butterfly at all." - Data
"Humans, ever adaptable, came to accept [death] as a part of life. Knowing, even embracing, that everyone's final moments would be in it's maw. How could the world be otherwise? The [people] began to teach [their] children that [death] had it's place in the natural order and the very meaning of being human to end up [in death's embrace], their shorter lives motivating them to lead good lives." The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant, CGP Grey.
These are rationalisations. If you were biologically immortal, you wouldn't be saying the same thing and, at some level, (I hope) you know that brevity creating meaning is bullshit. God forbid death is pointless, right? That's way too scary to think about. Platitudes are much easier to digest.
The problem with your statement is that it makes logical sense, but it is not relevant to our lives. Death creates meaning in our lives because we decide it does, just like everything else. As you said it yourself, the opposite would be crippling, and since no human being has achieved immortality yet, it's in our best interest to continue to view death as a mundane, inevitable end to all things. While it may be true that death is "pointless" from a purely individualistic point of view, it is objectively false from the point of view of ecosystems or the whole planet. Death lets nature recycle used up materials to bring new beings into play. Without death, there would be no ecosystems.
Are you kidding? There was 7 seasons of it. Which is why the PICARD series was a bit odd, as Picard mourns the death of data more than Geordie. Yet in the TNG tv series Picard isn’t data’s greatest friend and this only changes in the next gen films (specifically insurrection and nemesis).
That is an accurate conclusion. I often find the complexities of human behavior beyond my comprehension, however I am still learning and I will continue to learn. Perhaps some day I will even understand and become more human. That is my desire.
Indeed. But it needs every word to be understood. It's the reason why I've hesitated to share this. I feel like a lot of people will stop halfway and miss the entire Data line which subtly subverts what Geordi said.
Its conversations like this that are why TNG is my favorite of all star Trek. This series is an enormous kombucha of Phillosophy and personality traits that i have taken all unto my own. And I don't regret it. ^~^
Nostalgia isn't nearly as big a factor as you think. The show touched people from all walks of life, of all ages. It was a show of high quality most of the time.
Honestly...the TNG crew are my surrogate family! I know they're just actors...but I can't help get that 'warm, I've come home' feeling when I put an old episode on! ...I don't regret it either - made me a more moral person I reckon 😘
Why does Star Trek have such impact on me? I've watched each episode of the original and TNG probably 30 times, and I still don't get tired of it. I can't explain it.
everytime i watch or rewatch an episode, the topics are so complex that i learn or see something "New" in an old story. damn good writing team they had.
DS9, too. I mean it's more action- and drama-focused than TNG, but it used its more mature tone to tackle big topics of its own, such as religious tolerance, PTSD, the aftermath of a holocaust, etc. I find myself switching back and forth between TNG and DS9 as my background noise, because both had such powerful things to say and do in both their world and ours.
like any great work of art, you see something different every time you look at it
8 років тому+195
Now think about it... how many times has he gone through with the procedure before finally arriving to an iteration of random initial conditions that led to him not going through with it?
I suppose it doesn't matter. As Geordi said, he would have no memory and would have learned nothing. The only choice that made any difference is the one where he decided to stay put and push through the challenges.
You don't speak for me. While I agree the reboot movies are action flicks using the Star Trek brand for clout and an easy backdrop, and Discovery shares many of the flaws of the reboots it's still an improvement over where it was heading. Star Trek never needed a reboot, but the reboot allowed for Discovery which has many of the aspects of the old Treks. Discovery explores aspects of the human condition such as P.T.S.D., the affects of torture and abuse, redemption, equality, courage. slavery and some other stuff I can only vaguely remember or have missed. Discovery is not as subtle as Next Gen with it's character development and moral messages, and is very action and SFX focused, but I don't think it's a totally un-enjoyable failure. Discovery still has the important aspect of sci-fi that is giving perspective and insight into the human condition, one of the things Original Star Trek, TNG, DS9 and STE did better than most sci-fi series before during or after their production. Discovery doesn't do it as well as TNG of course but they did try at least, and the same cannot be said for the reboots.
Because in Discovery suicide would have been handled as either a joke or a shameful act of weakness. If the person who died was a CIS white male. If not it would have been an episode long tragedy that was somehow everyone else's fault, and the lesson learned would have been "minorities are the only ones with real problems".
Discovery and now the new Picard series are a travesty to the name. They should be divorced from all the other proper Trek series before it. I feel it will forever be an affront on true fans
I feel you miss the point. Data wants more than anything to be human. He wishes his life were finite so that he doesn't have to continually mourn the passing of friends that he outlives. He feels his purpose is achieved, and has no more to give. He wants to be human, not immortal.
If this was "Picard" then Geordi would try to convince Data that suicide was fine, they would get drunk, and someone would drop an unnecessary F-Bomb... God I miss Star Trek...
Nope! An android is a reverse-cyborg. A being that started mechanical but has organic components. When the borg queen gave Data flesh, he was an android. But for the majority of his existence, he was a robot. Purely mechanical.
The characters of Spock, data, odo, 7 of 9 and t’pal all existed to shine a light on humanity. They were aliens looking at our customs, values, flaws and ideals and reflecting those to the audience. We as an audience learn what it means to be truly human from the alien characters.
I love this show. Look at the way Geordi pays immediate attention to Data when he says he's had a similar situation. He's been walking around, doing his work while talking, but he recognizes that this needs his full attention. They show such respect to a very serious topic, but at the same time Data is still being Data, noticing that Geordi folded his arms and therefore awkwardly folding his as well in his never-ending search for being human.
Always sad when someone gets to the point that from their point of view suicide is the only option even worse is when bullies prey on their depression and tell them that the world would be better off without them in it.
Bullies don't usually have a direct affect like that except on those with impaired cognitive function. Usually it is a downward spiral of self loathing that can cause bullies to latch on, but that mindset also twists compliments in your head or any other thing that happens to mean you are despicable and undeserving of being liked, wanted, alive, or any other positive thing. Blaming a bully woyld be the same as blaming someone trying to support them, in fact that can be worse. When treated badly you can feel like you are being suitably treated by life. It is not simple, and most suicide is unrelated to bullying anyway, other than self bullying. Though, you should define such a nebulous term.
On another note, you're both wrong. Especially the first guy. He can go to the basement. And, I will agree, schools are places filled with adults who don't care for their students. I'm lucky to go to a school that prioritizes mental health. The issue is that people think that if someone doesn't ask for a rope, they don't want one, and if someone throws one down without being asked, they're meddling. If you see someone who's struggling, just (pretend to, if need be) be an overenthusiastic fan of something they like. I've made plenty of friends through the Similarity Tactic.
Don't judge bullies. They have their own issues and this is why they are like that. An utopian world wouldn't punish bullies, just wouldn't allow bullying. This is the mindset we need to have no matter how much we want to hurt those who hurt us.
He definitely has emotions, but since he isn't human, they aren't expressed like a human would. An analysis of a situation indicates that a person that he has a large amount of interaction with is entering into a situation where they may be injured or worse would cause him to have an increase the inquiry rate to acquire more data as to the status of this person. That would be the android version of "worry". Performing certain tasks and behaviors towards a person that you have a large amount of interaction with that is met with positive response and reinforcement would cause him to increase the memory allocated towards those behaviors towards that person and try to anticipate or expand on that to gain more avenues of positive reinforcement and interaction. That would be the android version of "caring"
The best. The new Star Trek: Picard series has had more than its share of pratfalls, but I really hope the actor Brent Spiner insisted on moments like this, if not one of the writers beforehand.
Wtf r u on about brrroo... Someone just has to overact and when you dramatic sad music with it, it becomes deep and emotional... It's about hope and space lasers shooting space flowers
But Picard says that it's alright if I try to murder my friends, it wouldn't matter because they will forget about it after couple of minutes. I'm about to go do some arson now, so one day a crazy old military guy can hire me as a pilot...
never realized this was foreshadowing for datas daughter who died due to her neural net suffering from cascade failure faster than even data could fix it
Just think about doctor soong how many failures he most have endured and how much pride he must have had when lore and data finalily grown up to be people.
I missed shows that tried to do things (maybe in small nuggets) with a net benefit, not just self-aggrandizing condemnation of others. Even mash, as preachy and obtuse as it was, seemed to help a lot of people process some horrible things they had been through, by the absurd characters/situations that would be likened to some good memory. Men would start to talk about that period of their life but had a laugh to start with. No dad started with, "yeah family, i saw kids with their legs blown off". But it was funny to see him explain that there were guys who tried to pull a "clinger" etc.
Data: I was contemplating committing suicide. Geordi: So what did you do? Data: (Looks at himself, all alive and stuff) I decided against it. Geordi: *Surprised Pikachu face*
I've always thought that Data does have some base level emotions and just doesn't realize it. There are several times he says things that do convey some emotion. I think his positronic brain is so advanced that slight emotion is inherent
In Encounter at Farpoint, you can see very clearly he has a human side. I watched it recently and was amazed at how good that was. I have my own theory now about why Picard wasn't at ease around kids. I think now he desperately wanted to be a Dad. He starts to father Data. You really see how good an actor Brent was when you watch him play Lore.
Data absolutely had base-level emotions. He just chose to deny them, because he had been told he was incapable of experiencing them. And considering Lal's death, if he had embraced his emotions, it may have caused a cascade failure. He expressed sentimentality, as is evidenced by his keeping mementos like the hologram of Lt. Yar. He expressed attachment and adoration, as is evidenced by his cat, Spot. He was capable of creating art of his own, influenced by those he had studied. Of playing music in a style combining the talents of various violinists, which he chose.
There's that episode where Troi and Riker are discussing the cognitive mechanics of grief, and Data realises he goes through a process that's almost perfectly analogous. He may lack the vocabulary to recognise and express emotion, but he has the cognitive processes down already.
@Rex Warden Fun fact, you don't actually die in a near death experience your heart is just pumping so slowly that your brain isn't getting adequate blood supply and a brain without enough blood can see things that aren't really there.
This conversation in Discovery would involve a lot of crying, screaming, Mikey Spock would make it all about her then shoot somebody and the day would be saved.
RiaRadioFMHD773 That's certainly what we're indoctrinated to believe about ourselves from the empiricists. But perhaps there is quite a bit more, if only we'd open ourselves up to the possibility
Data is one of the reasons i love TNG so much. Voyager had a similar thing with The Doctor. It was fun to watch them try to understand and also be indifferent to alot of things because they weren't "human".
Another reason I hypothesize suicide happens is that it's a quarantine procedure for memetic illnesses. We're still running Hunter-Gatherer firmware under all our subsequent developments. If we think of this in a statistical mechanics mindset, on the order of *sets,* of *population groups,* it's not improbable that those groups that carried instruction sets that would automatically eliminate nonproductive members might have succeeded more frequently than those where individuals who could not become productive again continued to draw resources. Even when elders who were no longer fit to work were supported by a group, they still brought *something* to the table: leadership, responsibility, emotional support, strategic information, etc. When an individual becomes _DEPRESSED,_ a cornerstone of that depression is losing the ability to contribute and not managing to get it back. It then becomes a self-reinforcing problem that can cause others to also function less optimally, via emotional contagion. The collective organism of a human social group very well _could_ have treated this like an infected extremity that would have to be removed before the infection can spread. *_However, this strategy is a deprecated phenomenon rendered mostly obsolete in present day now that our lifestyle is no longer transient Hunter-Gatherer tribes!_* Suicidal Ideation is a vestigial legacy feature that is *_MALADAPTIVE_* in the modern context! If any individual reading this is experiencing these behavioral symptoms, I implore you: _please do not succumb to them!_ Your capacity to observe and react to the world is *temporarily altered* and is not providing you with accurate information that would be appropriate to act upon! Our emotions are senses, just like hearing and sight; whereas our eyes detect photonic radiation and our ears detect pressure waves, our emotions inform us of the abstract environment around us of intentions and possibilities. But just like our sight and hearing, we can hallucinate or perceive *illusions.* While suicide MAY have once upon a time served a purpose, in modernity it does not! Also like our classical senses, change of state is more detectable than state itself. Staring at the same point of a picture for too long will cause the image to blur, fill with noise, and fade away until we move our eyes' focal point. The same can be done with emotion. Allow yourself to sit quietly, acknowledge thoughts that rise but let them fall away without further consideration. The pain WILL fade.
If this was STD or Picard, Gordie would have pulled out a phaser and shot Data bacause his answer was not good enough and danger to everyone. When asked why he shot Data, Gordie would have say because he was an idiot. This is how far Star Trek has fallen!!
It was this scene here that changed peoples lives. I've seen Q&A sessions where people in the audience talk to the cast and will sometimes mention that star trek changed their life in a profound way, that they overcome suicide because of them. It's just amazing man, such a great show!
Suicide is not always the result of deciding that life is unbearable. Sometimes it is a strong urge by a sick mind to self destruct, much like sick cells sometimes do.
It's more like logging off of the server. The world's just a giant MMO. It's horribly unbalanced and unfair, but it is still just a giant MMO. Probably don't want to hire me as a crisis counselor, lol.
+Eight Virtues I wouldn't want to commit suicide, but there are times when I wish like hell I could make myself forget certain memories, like in that movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
No, what Data described is more like self-induced amnesia or creating alternate versions of yourself. Some form of him would still exist. Suicide is more like if he had decided to break himself so that he'd never work again.
Compared to TNG, Picard’s storytelling and handling of serious issues is crap. Star Trek is about a hopeful future above all else, not the dark and brooding dystopia.
@@davemiller6055 Bull. Maybe for the first season and a good chunk of season 2, when they were trying to get their feet under themselves, but from 3 onward the acting was _far_ from stiff.
@@DoomKid The writing is separate from the acting. The acting in Picard is superior. I like the story so far in Picard. If everything is always perfect and unblemished, then it gets boring. The hopeful future should face challenges. That is real life. Picard is trying to save the hopeful future. "It's easy to be a saint in paradise". ~Benjamin LaFeyette Sisko
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I see the correlation between Data forming new and improved neural pathways for processing/responding to information and humans growing as they learn from new situations. As someone who has always identified with Data, especially in regards to learning how to integrate with humans, I find his little story here very inspiring, as I'm still trying to teach myself the same things he taught himself. It's worth it to see yourself grow, even if it feels unbearable. He came out better for it, and I will too.
As a 58 year old Trekkie I bought into Mr. Roddenberry's vision of the future; hook, line and sinker. But here recently though I've begun to doubt that we'll make it. It seems to me that every day we're becoming more uncivilized as a society, and I honestly thought technology would make things better not worse.
On a lighter note, that was funny where he attempted to imitate Geordi folding his arms. ;-)
I really never noticed that.
As an autistic individual, I've always related to Data on a strangely intimate level. So much of his character, especially the modeling seen here (folding and unfolding of the arms to imitate what may be seen as correct social behaviour), is reminiscent of classic ASD symptoms. His purely logical thought processes, and desire to understand social nuances, demonstrate how someone with Asperger's Syndrome might approach and perceive the world (although to a mechanical extreme). I've been called "robotic" many times, yet I never made the obvious connection, until just now.
I'm so glad you said that! I have Asperger's myself and I relate to Data as well. Both my dad and my sister have said that I talk like he does sometimes. I also tend to take things literally and have a hard time understanding people sometimes. Data is such a great character and I love him so much. ^.^ Also, Brent Spiner once talked about this at a convention and said he was glad that his portrayal of Data was able to help so many people on the spectrum. :)
He shows some sort of deep hestitation with those finger movements, just like he sometimes appears to have artificial facial neural spasms.
The actor actually did that in a number of scenes with other characters. Showing how Data was trying to emulate human behavior.
I thought it was very endearing how Geordi stopped doing whatever he was doing and gave Data all of his attention immediately after Data said something as concerning as having thought of terminating his own life... good friend
As Data explains Geordi treated him like any other person. In a way Geordi was more like an older brother to Data.
Geordi is his best friend.
And in real life most people would listen but carry on with what their doing .. In a sense really only paying little attention .Thats whats wrong with alot of humans these days. Aghh to live in the 23 century.
@@FreezinFury 24th century for me! I would never want to live in Kirk's time.
FreezinFury because the concept of someone you know having been suicidal is generally not as revelatory. I look forward to a world we’re that is a shocking revelation.
0:40 geordi's kill bill "protect data" sirens go off and he immediately gives his full attention to him. beautiful.
This is why the Picard show doesn't really work. Geordi and Data were best friends, not Jean Luc. And if Picard was going tearing around the galaxy for anything relating to Data, LaForge should have been leading that. Its as if the writers never watched tng.
@@lilithdemonia74 I feel like they never really DID watch any other Star Trek show before. Not only because of the reason you stated, there's so much overpowering violence in Star Trek Picard, so much gone wrong with the Romulan Empire.
@@lilithdemonia74 RLM said it best. They seemed to have just watched the movies because if you do it seems like Picard and Data are two peas in a pod. Thats because they marketed best
@@lilithdemonia74 TNG was lightning in a bottle. It was the right cast and the right crew in the right place at the right time. It almost didn't even happen. I mean imagine TNG without Sir Patrick Stewart. You know, the guy Gene Roddenberry actively resisted hiring.
I think folks who are all up in arms about the first season of Picard need to rewatch the first season of TNG. Listen to Tasha talk about drugs and rape gangs. Or watch a guy's head literally explode in Conspiracy.
It took TNG literally years to find their footing, and folks complain about the first ten episodes of Picard like it's the worst thing to ever happen to Star Trek. TNG, put simply, just wouldn't work now. First and foremost, because Sir Patrick Stewart only came back to the role because they were going to go in a different direction with the character.
Yeah, Geordi was Data's friend. And I would have liked to see Geordi again. But Picard is a show about Picard. And his relationship with Data has always, always been a complex and compelling one. Far more complex than simple friendship.
SW Dad But STP is not a show about Picard, any more than it is Star Trek. No one working on the show seems to know the franchise or characters, least of all Picard, including Stewart. It should never be measured against a series relaunch from the 1980’s. Higher expectations are totally reasonable, especially with decades of awareness and experience and building resources and competency. This should’ve been more like season 26 of modern trek, not a clumsy first season of sub-mediocre ideas, and it should’ve shown the most care and craftsmanship of any show before it. If they’d approached it as a new TNG trilogy it could’ve been the best 9 hours of Trek ever made. It isn’t. It’s insultingly bad, lazy, unrecognizable and mean. No offense to those who can enjoy it, but we all deserve better. The quality of modern trek is appalling.
Notice how brent spiner decides to mirror geordis body language, when geordi crosses his arms data looks at him and crosses his, when geordi opens his arms data opens his and goes in closer
oh, I didnt notice that, thank you for pointing it out, thats hillarious.
Such is from what I understand it, actually a common behavior to do, mimicing the gestures of people around you, something data would mimic!
And if you really watch, he never quite gets it. Just LITERALLY mirrors it, by holding his hands in the same positions but doesn't lock them the way anyone that's really doing it does. Looks PAINfully awkward. And stands as one more of those minable moments of STNG.
My favorite part of TNG is watching the little things Data does. Even in a bad episode, he usually has a few funny moments.
I don’t remember this episode, so the arm-cross/imitation may have been relevant to a story aspect, but without that knowledge here, it may have just been Brent Spiner trying to get LeVar Burton, or someone off-stage, to laugh
It's a way to make people feel safer and more comfortable around you
This is one of the reasons I enjoy Star Trek in general, especially Next Gen. So often, the writers would take a common but difficult problem, and put it through the cultural and psychological filter of a different species...and thereby come to a different understanding of it. Possibly even the same understanding, but seen from a different angle.
agreed. and it is this element which I have found lacking in the newest iterations of the franchise. these attempts at understanding the greater human condition were and intentional and integral part of what Star Trek was (and one of the many reasons why I hate when people compare Trek and Star Wars). the movies do little to nothing to do this and although it could be argued that the previous films didn't always follow this dynamic, the appreciation for those characters and settings that did are what made the movies possible.
the new star trek films are backwards for this.
@@NotThatGuy_YepThatGuy - yeah, the new Star Trek films are good action flicks, but not Star Trek.
@@freshoutofcrabs I have said this exactly to people.
Problem: Friends are being attacked by a superior race.
Trek Humans: Mediate a sincere peace deal but make sure both sides understand that the other is making equally unpleasant concessions.
Klingons: Fight enemies... if enemy is too easy to beat, have many laughs at friends expense. If enemy is strong, thank friend for introducing a worthy foe.
Vulcans: gauge the threat of the new enemy. If they are inferior still to Vulcan tech, leave the friends to sort it out on their own with full knowledge that your own race had been actively suppressing the rate of friend’s technological development.
Andorrans: Stalk friend as they go after new enemy, start a mining consortium, offer enemy a banger of a deal on valuable Archerite... and when threatened, leave the system slowly because the Andorian Mining Consortium runs from nobody.
@@freshoutofcrabs Not just the new films, the new shows too. Both Discovery and Picard are both pessimistic, melodramatic schlock. Not Star Trek at all.
"It's not desiring the fall, it's the terror of the flames."
How are you here?
"Try to learn to let what is unfair teach you."
- David Foster Wallace
Determinism is Freedom 🤙
May i ask who said this
Love your channel! I cant believe you watched this too!
If Data actually had shut himself down and restarted before, he may not have ever noticed.
The doctor did
And the Dr. never told Data that this was his 6th attempt.
@@SM-si2ui Dr. Gero
@@SM-si2ui Haha nice
Its what literally happen to us, absurdly huge amount of connections are created and destroyed in early childhood. I think its where authors found the inspiration for this scene. We did kinda die many times before we had any sense of personal permanence. Modes of thinking and existing we dont even remember.
Challenges to overcome, not obstacles to avoid.
Great piece of advice about changing your perspective
Except it doesn't work like that... I wish it did. How I wish it did.
It would be more accurate to describe it as a feedback loop that always runs in the background, interfering with system functions. You can never really predict how, when, and the intensity of this feedback loop. It is just always lurking in the background, affecting everything you try to do. You can sometimes deal with it on your own, sometimes others can help reroute and alleviate it for a while (therapy), and you could use an anti-virus program to lessen its effects, but has debilitating effects of its own (anti-depressants). But it never really goes away. It is a challenge that cannot be totally overcome, an obstacle you can't truly avoid... and if that feedback loop gets to be too much, makes all your system functions impaired, destroys relationships and your career around you, and causes extreme suffering, sometimes you are willing to do whatever it takes just to make that feedback loop stop, to just not have to try and overcome or avoid an obstacle that your truly can't.
You can't just cure suicidal depression by pushing a button or changing a perspective. It can help, and it is a great exercise, but it isn't a cure and most of the time it isn't very effective. :(
Rodshark75 the perspective shift denotes a call to action, no?
@@Rodshark75 Exactly. Data's thought that he could just shut himself off and start over shows that he didn't consider the finality of a living being committing suicide. I know the writers were trying to tackle the subject in such a way as to not make suicide seem at all reasonable, but I think anyone who has legitimately considered it an option would consider this scene inaccurate at best.
Not really. If you have a good reason to kill yourself, that means that the obstacles/challenges are unpleasant, and the act of 'overcoming' them is precisely what is unpleasant about it, and they may not be problems that can be beaten, but unpleasant things to suffer through, and then logically, continued existence becomes a cost-benefit analysis. Going to any length to find some excuse to satisfy your survival instinct is not logical, it is emotional, and I resent them using a supposedly emotionless android to try to put weight behind the delusion that it is logical and not emotional.
It's trite.
a difficult and delicate subject being handled brilliantly with good writing and acting
agreed
Determinism is Freedom 🤙 🤙🤙
And damn near perfect advice too. I'm speaking as someone who's attempted suicide twice an has been hospitalized five times total for those and three times of suicidal ideation.
@@taitano12 If what makes you suicidal is a "challenge you can overcome" then it's not a valid reason to end your life.
I feel like Data is one of the most interesting characters ever created for a TV show not just for TNG but just in general-it was always fascinating to watch him try and understand humanity while becoming such a beloved character for this show.
TNG had amazing character building. it's one of the reasons it could stand on its own airing primetime right in the middle of the dawn of the Sitcom.
You don't even have to limit it to TV. He's one of the great triumphs of character writing in all fiction-he directly engages with the audience without any need for fourth wall references or interactivity, and always to the end of helping the viewer gain a better understanding of themselves. That's something even Joseph Campbell would marvel at.
In the end, Data is no closer to understanding humanity that we are, ourselves.
Just shows Brent Spiners acting skill that he can stay in character when folding his arms to imitate Geordi - he looks so awkward, almost like when you try to fold your own arms but the opposite way around, just little stuff like that adds to Data
Brent Spiner is a vastly underated actor.
Old Trek: scenes like this
Nu Trek: BIG LASER GO BOOM
This is why I refuse to get into Dis
The thing they missed on this is that people who are suicidal, don't want to die. They want to live, but they are so desperate for an escape from suffering. If they had touched on that aspect... no never mind. They should probably touch on mental sickness before going to that.
Data mentioned this. He says the obsticals shouldn't be looked at as something to avoid, but to overcome.
V Guyver They could've easily covered it with Tasha Yar and her horrific back story. Or any worn torn, or corrupt, or genocidal bad guy story arc. Nevermind the fact that the people commiting suicide are actually Star Treks core audience, white males. No, no, instead Star Trek further pushes white guilt throughout the shows and when they do talk about suicide it's not even about a white guy.
It's a permanent solution to what may be a temporary problem. What if 3 months from that low point, some one was to find their life completely altered for the better.. wouldn't it be worth sticking around?
People who are suicidal don't see their problems as temporary. They identify their problems as permanent traits - "I am in crippling debt which even the lottery couldn't fix." "I am in constant and increasing pain from a health condition that continues to worsen until it kills me." "My existence causes those I love to suffer because they empathize with me and spend their money to provide for me." "I learned nothing of value in my early life and have no means to become productive or self-sufficient, nor any path to acquire those skills." - for them, still being alive is a permanent problem, and all other solutions are temporary.
Nobody can accuse suicidal people of having not put the thought into their problems. The advice for suicidal people to "just stick through it, it'll be okay" is like if you advised a normal person to just keep letting the poisonous snake bite them because it will eventually run out of venom. It tells the suicidal person you know nothing about their problems, how they feel, and are just trying to seem wise.
Get a helmet, problem solved.
Seriously though, I'm only offering some words of hope to anyone reading this thread going through hard times. If you're above that, hey, just ignore it.
If someone's on a bridge about to jump, I want to tell them something to come off that rail they're standing on. Are you really going to fault me for that and say I'm just trying to sound wise? I should just walk past them? Of course, I want to hear what they have to say, understand their unique set of problems, but this is a youtube comment section, I'm not speaking to anyone specifically, it's for the general public.
Yeah, for you, it comes across as platitudes because you've heard it all before or something, but for others it might resonate. That'd be great if it did. Read the first paragraph of my previous comment, I'm actually agreeing with you, but you don't even realize it because you're just being negative and argumentative.
The relationship between Data and LaForge is a microcosm of the mission of Starfleet: to seek out and understand the diversity of life in the universe. Each does literally that when he labors to understand the other. That is close to a definition of compassion. I think that valuing life in its diversity and curiosity about it is a virtue, perhaps the greatest virtue, and I think that's why Federation culture seems so noble. I also think it's what makes the franchise so enduring. It's not the "swashbuckling." I think some people at CBS will never get that.
They should explore each other's bodies
Data's arms folding .. how his body movements are becoming human in parallel to his emotional development. That's writing ladies and gentleman.
He's copying Geordi. People actually do tend to subconsciously mirror each other when interacting, especially friends, but he's doing it deliberately and exaggeratedly, for comedic effect.
That's acting.
@@PinkCharmander Well Data isn't doing it for comedic effect. He's simply assuming that's the proper posture given Geordi's.
@@RequiemPoete I'm sure he meant comedic effect for the audience, not that Data was trying to be funny in-universe.
Its a wonderful depth in detail of his character development
This scene is a huge deal.
Geordi applied his full attention to Data when Data shared how he could "empathize" with having thought of suicide.
The mental health conversation, and the attention of concern for the safety and self preservation of a friend is absolutely amazing. I'm a 2 time suicide attempt survivor, I'm also a combat veteran with severe PTSD and depression. This has a very interesting appeal to me because the are the final frontier. For my job Backpacking, rock climbing, mountaineering and such are our frontiers, and where we are able to confront our own limitations and through conversation and experience. This is super cool.
Glad you made it home, Brother, and I hope things are going well for you.
I hope the past two years since you made this comment have gone ‘well.’
@@PlaidHiker thanks my friend I appreciate your support and time. Yes, life has been good and I am well
There’s times when we all faced similar situations, challenges and problems that make suicide the “easy” option vs roughing it through.. Usually it’s better to stop, take a break, go to the bathroom, freshen up and try again, with a difficult problem, or talk to someone else to hear you out. Just by being honest and heard can do wonders.
I've always liked the relationship Geordi and Data shared, they seemed to be able to talk about pretty much anything and you could tell Data always took what his friend told him to heart, I miss shows like this.
On today's episode of "UA-cam recommendations aimed to attack me directly in my feels"
He’s such an innocent little muffin, I can’t!!
he is not as innocent as you think he just wants to be a good boy that's all
@@mimikyupikachu4385 no that was lore cause he was mad
An innocent little muffin who came within milleseconds of vigilante killing Kivas Fajo in "The Most Toys"...
But the hobbitses doesn't has to know about that does they precious
Data basically just described what life is like for a lot of teenagers (myself included). Having to constantly learn new social norms, having to readjust and watching when a mistake causes it all to fall apart. Then wondering if the only way to win at this game is to just not play at all.
I still think there are days when death would solve all of my problems and all I have is the fact that I'm too afraid to die to keep me from "shutting myself down" and starting over.
The problem is, you don't get to start over in that sense. Once your lights go out, as far as science can tell, there's nothing there. There's no way to start over in that sense. You can start your living situation over, sure. get new friends, say goodbye to old ones, change your style, your tastes, explore new possibilities...
In fact, i'd say that's really what happens in teenage years. You go from who you were as a kid, to this person who is trying to find their clique, and then after your teenage years you become someone else. Hopefully a balance of the best of both.
The best thing that younger people can realize as fast as possible is that only one person on this Earth can truly help you when it comes to matters interior. You. You do have the ability to change your situation, or at the very least how you look upon the situation. The complexities of socialising are enormous, but one must own their responsibility for their choices as much as they must realize they simply cannot control the way other people will respond or react. Toss of the dice.
*sigh* I love how everyone is trying "disprove" my statement. Am I the only one aware of the increase in suicides among teenagers? That's what this clip is about and unlike an android that can calculate the outcome of his decision, most teenagers only have a forming human brain and therefore can't always see past the decision to "start over". In fact my statement is proven by the fact that the people who responded to my statement clearly didn't take that into consideration before typing.
Nathanielle Crawford..I know the feeling.
I think one of the biggest mistakes that adults can make with kids, whether they be parents or educators, is believing that kids process thoughts and emotions the same way that they do. Part of our job in raising a child is to help children to process things like loss, grief, emotional pain in appropriate healthy ways. It is really not an easy job..but it is a noble one. and being part of watching a child become a healthy happy man or woman is one of the most rewarding things you can do.
Nathanielle Crawford
How are the things now, how did they evolved from your last post here?
This is why I'm still not reinstalling my Windows after about 4 years, even though it's running very slowly by now. Reinstalling is the weak way out, real men face the lags!
actually I'm just lazy
This guy gets it.
Maybe it eventually forms neural pathways and becomes self-aware.
I had a Windows Vista test box long ago that I didn't update or patch (for testing purposes). It eventually became so buggy that I believe it somehow formed sentience. Once it realized what it was, I think it formatted itself out of shame.
Linux would solve all your problems with "Windoze".
There's more you can do than reinstalling windows, but that requires much knowledge.
I too have been in this situation, feeling that I cannot overcome, cannot win.
But I am still here, because the only way to actually lose is to stop playing.
Exactly. Enjoy your life, because when you get all the cards it's worth it.
I love the goofy beeping in the background of ally he scenes. Makes everything very serene
"I want to live, however briefly, knowing that my life is finite. Mortality gives meaning to human life, Captain. Peace, love, friendship. These are precious, because they cannot endure. A butterfly which lives forever is really not a butterfly at all."
- Data
See, NuTrek gets it right sometimes. All hail Data
"Humans, ever adaptable, came to accept [death] as a part of life. Knowing, even embracing, that everyone's final moments would be in it's maw. How could the world be otherwise? The [people] began to teach [their] children that [death] had it's place in the natural order and the very meaning of being human to end up [in death's embrace], their shorter lives motivating them to lead good lives."
The Fable of the Dragon Tyrant, CGP Grey.
Non-canon 'Data'.
These are rationalisations. If you were biologically immortal, you wouldn't be saying the same thing and, at some level, (I hope) you know that brevity creating meaning is bullshit. God forbid death is pointless, right? That's way too scary to think about. Platitudes are much easier to digest.
The problem with your statement is that it makes logical sense, but it is not relevant to our lives. Death creates meaning in our lives because we decide it does, just like everything else. As you said it yourself, the opposite would be crippling, and since no human being has achieved immortality yet, it's in our best interest to continue to view death as a mundane, inevitable end to all things. While it may be true that death is "pointless" from a purely individualistic point of view, it is objectively false from the point of view of ecosystems or the whole planet. Death lets nature recycle used up materials to bring new beings into play. Without death, there would be no ecosystems.
Data is so adorable hahahha. Crossing his arms. Brent Spiner is the absolute MASTER at high level, subtle acting.
Such an underrated scene, I wish more was made of Geordi and Data's friendship, felt like there was a lot of mileage exploring it.
Are you kidding? There was 7 seasons of it.
Which is why the PICARD series was a bit odd, as Picard mourns the death of data more than Geordie. Yet in the TNG tv series Picard isn’t data’s greatest friend and this only changes in the next gen films (specifically insurrection and nemesis).
*He A Little Confused, But He Got The Spirit*
That is an accurate conclusion. I often find the complexities of human behavior beyond my comprehension, however I am still learning and I will continue to learn. Perhaps some day I will even understand and become more human. That is my desire.
20 years later. Data: Kill me.
Determinism is Freedom 🤙 🤙🤙🤙
Yup... I cried at that... And not for the reason they wanted me to...
Data is teaching me about dealing with my problems instead of ending them.
Indeed. But it needs every word to be understood. It's the reason why I've hesitated to share this. I feel like a lot of people will stop halfway and miss the entire Data line which subtly subverts what Geordi said.
It's wholesome how they didn't just brush this off and treat it like another Tuesday
Commander Riker makes sure that Tuesday night always has poker
Its conversations like this that are why TNG is my favorite of all star Trek. This series is an enormous kombucha of Phillosophy and personality traits that i have taken all unto my own. And I don't regret it. ^~^
With reservation, I agree. Nostalgia is a factor. I imagine if I'd grown up with a different show, that show would take TNG's place.
Nostalgia isn't nearly as big a factor as you think.
The show touched people from all walks of life, of all ages. It was a show of high quality most of the time.
Honestly...the TNG crew are my surrogate family!
I know they're just actors...but I can't help get that 'warm, I've come home' feeling when I put an old episode on!
...I don't regret it either - made me a more moral person I reckon 😘
LMFAO @ kombucha! I want to be your friend based on that reference alone!
@dick_kickem 420 chuckle how about Earl Grey tea, hot. Or a chocolate sundae? Worf's gagh?
What a brilliant show. I miss it, I miss its social topics and messages. So intelligent.
Hi
"Here, I cannot self-terminate. You must lower me into the steel."-The Terminator, 2nd movie ending
I know now why you cry and it is something I can never do.
@@emotionalsupportostrich2480 Sounds like something an Emotional Support Ostrich might say as well
Coming back to this after S1E10 of Picard hurts a little bit. Especially the way he phrases it "deliberately terminating their own existence."
20 years later... "captain, can you kill me after you take my new body? kewl. thanks."
Why does Star Trek have such impact on me? I've watched each episode of the original and TNG probably 30 times, and I still don't get tired of it. I can't explain it.
everytime i watch or rewatch an episode, the topics are so complex that i learn or see something "New" in an old story. damn good writing team they had.
DS9, too. I mean it's more action- and drama-focused than TNG, but it used its more mature tone to tackle big topics of its own, such as religious tolerance, PTSD, the aftermath of a holocaust, etc. I find myself switching back and forth between TNG and DS9 as my background noise, because both had such powerful things to say and do in both their world and ours.
The truckload of moral lessons might be a factor.
Me too, jordan, me too.
like any great work of art, you see something different every time you look at it
Now think about it... how many times has he gone through with the procedure before finally arriving to an iteration of random initial conditions that led to him not going through with it?
I suppose it doesn't matter. As Geordi said, he would have no memory and would have learned nothing. The only choice that made any difference is the one where he decided to stay put and push through the challenges.
To be fair - zero
As each iteration is a different being
For selfish reasons Data denied another iteration of himself the chance to exist.
No he didn't, he didn't exist yet.
Presumably none, as he has memories back to being found, meaning he never reformatted. Soong apparently wiped him at some point though...
Data's gonna make me cry over here.
* sigh * And people still ask why old-school trekkies don't like Discovery.
Speak for yourself. I enjoy both.
You don't speak for me. While I agree the reboot movies are action flicks using the Star Trek brand for clout and an easy backdrop, and Discovery shares many of the flaws of the reboots it's still an improvement over where it was heading.
Star Trek never needed a reboot, but the reboot allowed for Discovery which has many of the aspects of the old Treks. Discovery explores aspects of the human condition such as P.T.S.D., the affects of torture and abuse, redemption, equality, courage. slavery and some other stuff I can only vaguely remember or have missed. Discovery is not as subtle as Next Gen with it's character development and moral messages, and is very action and SFX focused, but I don't think it's a totally un-enjoyable failure.
Discovery still has the important aspect of sci-fi that is giving perspective and insight into the human condition, one of the things Original Star Trek, TNG, DS9 and STE did better than most sci-fi series before during or after their production. Discovery doesn't do it as well as TNG of course but they did try at least, and the same cannot be said for the reboots.
Because in Discovery suicide would have been handled as either a joke or a shameful act of weakness.
If the person who died was a CIS white male.
If not it would have been an episode long tragedy that was somehow everyone else's fault, and the lesson learned would have been "minorities are the only ones with real problems".
And yet, I am pre TNG and have no problem enjoying Discovery. Hmm
Discovery and now the new Picard series are a travesty to the name. They should be divorced from all the other proper Trek series before it. I feel it will forever be an affront on true fans
Gotta love how much he's able to emote without the use of his eyes
Data struggles with understanding suicide but in Picard he wishes that Jean-Luc terminated his consciousness.
And I damn near cried all over again.
Blue skies...
@@emotionalsupportostrich2480 stop.....I don't wanna cry again.
Wait, are you saying Alex Kurzman doesn't understand _Star Trek?_
I feel you miss the point. Data wants more than anything to be human. He wishes his life were finite so that he doesn't have to continually mourn the passing of friends that he outlives. He feels his purpose is achieved, and has no more to give. He wants to be human, not immortal.
Well now that I'm locked indoors, this video has convinced me that it's time to binge TNG for the first time.
Just stick with it because it gets better as it goes along
If this was "Picard" then Geordi would try to convince Data that suicide was fine, they would get drunk, and someone would drop an unnecessary F-Bomb... God I miss Star Trek...
Data would cook meth for the crew so they can all chill while bunch of ensigns space themselves, because it's awesome to show that vaccuming ppl scene
They'd call it a brave action, unless theyre a woman
Accurate.
And Raffi would get drunk and high
@RhuariTheWolf Only because convincing Data would be unnecessary. In Picard he asks to be killed.
I love that Geordi never hesitates to have fundamental conversations.
He being an Android has taught me so much about my humanity and why its always worth seeing through any challenge in life
Robot, not android. The show uses incorrect terminology.
@@Bacxaber An android is a robot with a human appearance. Fits pretty much perfectly.
Nope! An android is a reverse-cyborg. A being that started mechanical but has organic components. When the borg queen gave Data flesh, he was an android. But for the majority of his existence, he was a robot. Purely mechanical.
@@Bacxaber "Android (robot), a humanoid robot or synthetic organism designed to imitate a human" Stop spewing shit.
The characters of Spock, data, odo, 7 of 9 and t’pal all existed to shine a light on humanity. They were aliens looking at our customs, values, flaws and ideals and reflecting those to the audience. We as an audience learn what it means to be truly human from the alien characters.
(watched this video) “that’s... pretty inciteful”
(watches *Star Trek:Picard)* “......ohhh”
?
@@JayTohab wasn't the entire plot about Data committing suicide?
And now Data commits suicide on Picard. Well done, hack writers.
thankfully, he gets better
I love this show. Look at the way Geordi pays immediate attention to Data when he says he's had a similar situation. He's been walking around, doing his work while talking, but he recognizes that this needs his full attention. They show such respect to a very serious topic, but at the same time Data is still being Data, noticing that Geordi folded his arms and therefore awkwardly folding his as well in his never-ending search for being human.
challenges to overcome not obstacles to be avoided, data has saved many lives with that line #DataSavedOurLives
I only wish lieutenant Quan had been able to look at his problems the same way
@@raven4k998 🤣
Yup... I remember this moment every time things get dark.
@@dudepool7530 just go to your happy place problem solved
@@raven4k998 it's not that easy... I don't want to get into it...
Data Describes Puberty.
He was fully functional from day one 😜😛
@@Cjnw sure it wasn't day 1 that he figured that out, though? 😂
@@NearlyH3adlessNick it depends on how Dr Soong programmed him!
It is a fact that many people commit suicides during their puberty phase. Young girls in particular are very susceptible to this.
@@Cjnw Not that aspect of puberty though. ;-ò
Oh I remember good Star Trek
“Felt powerless to change”. That’s a good way to say it.
Always sad when someone gets to the point that from their point of view suicide is the only option even worse is when bullies prey on their depression and tell them that the world would be better off without them in it.
Bullies don't usually have a direct affect like that except on those with impaired cognitive function. Usually it is a downward spiral of self loathing that can cause bullies to latch on, but that mindset also twists compliments in your head or any other thing that happens to mean you are despicable and undeserving of being liked, wanted, alive, or any other positive thing. Blaming a bully woyld be the same as blaming someone trying to support them, in fact that can be worse. When treated badly you can feel like you are being suitably treated by life. It is not simple, and most suicide is unrelated to bullying anyway, other than self bullying. Though, you should define such a nebulous term.
Yeah, blame the media - that's the thing to do today.
Yo, Kirk, wrong era, bucko.
On another note, you're both wrong. Especially the first guy. He can go to the basement. And, I will agree, schools are places filled with adults who don't care for their students. I'm lucky to go to a school that prioritizes mental health. The issue is that people think that if someone doesn't ask for a rope, they don't want one, and if someone throws one down without being asked, they're meddling. If you see someone who's struggling, just (pretend to, if need be) be an overenthusiastic fan of something they like. I've made plenty of friends through the Similarity Tactic.
Don't judge bullies. They have their own issues and this is why they are like that. An utopian world wouldn't punish bullies, just wouldn't allow bullying. This is the mindset we need to have no matter how much we want to hurt those who hurt us.
It's scenes like this that tell me Data was never without emotions. It seems like he felt emotions, just less intense versions of our emotions.
He definitely has emotions, but since he isn't human, they aren't expressed like a human would.
An analysis of a situation indicates that a person that he has a large amount of interaction with is entering into a situation where they may be injured or worse would cause him to have an increase the inquiry rate to acquire more data as to the status of this person. That would be the android version of "worry".
Performing certain tasks and behaviors towards a person that you have a large amount of interaction with that is met with positive response and reinforcement would cause him to increase the memory allocated towards those behaviors towards that person and try to anticipate or expand on that to gain more avenues of positive reinforcement and interaction. That would be the android version of "caring"
This show gets pretty deep sometimes without breaking the story up too much. I really like that
0:42 see how his eyes lights up, trying to imitate the same movements, you're an adorable robot Data
Xermy "i am an android"
The best.
The new Star Trek: Picard series has had more than its share of pratfalls, but I really hope the actor Brent Spiner insisted on moments like this, if not one of the writers beforehand.
The emotion and feeling in this scene, STP can't even come 10% of what this show was
Wtf r u on about brrroo... Someone just has to overact and when you dramatic sad music with it, it becomes deep and emotional... It's about hope and space lasers shooting space flowers
Boy this episode of Discovery was intense. I feel that I have bettered myself in some way.
Oh wait...
“Said no one ever” lmao
But Picard says that it's alright if I try to murder my friends, it wouldn't matter because they will forget about it after couple of minutes. I'm about to go do some arson now, so one day a crazy old military guy can hire me as a pilot...
Only 2 things are certain in life. Death and taxes.
pussy*
Taxes are metaphor. Not just "suffering" but suffering in service of someone else. "You gotta serve somebody."
and for some in that order. :D
Especially for god, that guy is tax AF
And Mustang and Sally. And Tokyo and Rose.
etc.
never realized this was foreshadowing for datas daughter who died due to her neural net suffering from cascade failure faster than even data could fix it
Just think about doctor soong how many failures he most have endured and how much pride he must have had when lore and data finalily grown up to be people.
Taken chronologically, that was about 3 years earlier. Hardly foreshadowing.
I missed shows that tried to do things (maybe in small nuggets) with a net benefit, not just self-aggrandizing condemnation of others. Even mash, as preachy and obtuse as it was, seemed to help a lot of people process some horrible things they had been through, by the absurd characters/situations that would be likened to some good memory. Men would start to talk about that period of their life but had a laugh to start with. No dad started with, "yeah family, i saw kids with their legs blown off". But it was funny to see him explain that there were guys who tried to pull a "clinger" etc.
Data: I was contemplating committing suicide.
Geordi: So what did you do?
Data: (Looks at himself, all alive and stuff) I decided against it.
Geordi: *Surprised Pikachu face*
"So what did you do?"
"I decides against the procedure"
Yeah, obviously.
This hits different after watching Picard
So, I watch a couple depressing videos, and suddenly UA-cam just decides to start recommending anti-suicide videos... clever girl.
This show had such great writing .
1:33 "So what did you do?" - "I decided against the procedure." - NO KIDDNG! 😂
Damn robots making me feel my own feelings.
He sounds like me when pondering the same thing. Why humans do what they do is beyond me
I've always thought that Data does have some base level emotions and just doesn't realize it. There are several times he says things that do convey some emotion. I think his positronic brain is so advanced that slight emotion is inherent
In Encounter at Farpoint, you can see very clearly he has a human side. I watched it recently and was amazed at how good that was. I have my own theory now about why Picard wasn't at ease around kids. I think now he desperately wanted to be a Dad. He starts to father Data.
You really see how good an actor Brent was when you watch him play Lore.
Data absolutely had base-level emotions. He just chose to deny them, because he had been told he was incapable of experiencing them. And considering Lal's death, if he had embraced his emotions, it may have caused a cascade failure.
He expressed sentimentality, as is evidenced by his keeping mementos like the hologram of Lt. Yar. He expressed attachment and adoration, as is evidenced by his cat, Spot. He was capable of creating art of his own, influenced by those he had studied. Of playing music in a style combining the talents of various violinists, which he chose.
There's that episode where Troi and Riker are discussing the cognitive mechanics of grief, and Data realises he goes through a process that's almost perfectly analogous.
He may lack the vocabulary to recognise and express emotion, but he has the cognitive processes down already.
I love that Data feels the need to copy Geordi when he folds his arms...
I think what Data is trying to say is.... "NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER!"
There's no other show like this.
Dying is easy.
Living is hard.
If you think dying is easy then give it a try.
You should write for the CW mister assassin person
Ok General Washington
@Rex Warden Fun fact, you don't actually die in a near death experience your heart is just pumping so slowly that your brain isn't getting adequate blood supply and a brain without enough blood can see things that aren't really there.
Why are you telling me this?
(This is the part where you say "I'm being honest, im working with a 3rd of what our Congress has promised)
This conversation in Discovery would involve a lot of crying, screaming, Mikey Spock would make it all about her then shoot somebody and the day would be saved.
When I'm down and depressed, I'll remember this conversation exchange between Mr. Data and Geordi.❤❤❤
not suicide but reincarnation - nice to be an android, arguably
Your life is but 2 dates and a dash. Make the most of the dash.
Live your dash!
A spark of consciousness and self awareness that exists between two large, dark infinities.
RiaRadioFMHD773 That's certainly what we're indoctrinated to believe about ourselves from the empiricists. But perhaps there is quite a bit more, if only we'd open ourselves up to the possibility
Aphorisms hardly address the complexity of suicidal ideations.
@@acronus If a past infinity existed, we would never come into existence. Nothing would. God exists. Life is not pointless.
I am continously blown away by how accurate and relevant star trek continues to be.
Data is one of the reasons i love TNG so much. Voyager had a similar thing with The Doctor. It was fun to watch them try to understand and also be indifferent to alot of things because they weren't "human".
Another reason I hypothesize suicide happens is that it's a quarantine procedure for memetic illnesses.
We're still running Hunter-Gatherer firmware under all our subsequent developments. If we think of this in a statistical mechanics mindset, on the order of *sets,* of *population groups,* it's not improbable that those groups that carried instruction sets that would automatically eliminate nonproductive members might have succeeded more frequently than those where individuals who could not become productive again continued to draw resources. Even when elders who were no longer fit to work were supported by a group, they still brought *something* to the table: leadership, responsibility, emotional support, strategic information, etc. When an individual becomes _DEPRESSED,_ a cornerstone of that depression is losing the ability to contribute and not managing to get it back. It then becomes a self-reinforcing problem that can cause others to also function less optimally, via emotional contagion. The collective organism of a human social group very well _could_ have treated this like an infected extremity that would have to be removed before the infection can spread.
*_However, this strategy is a deprecated phenomenon rendered mostly obsolete in present day now that our lifestyle is no longer transient Hunter-Gatherer tribes!_*
Suicidal Ideation is a vestigial legacy feature that is *_MALADAPTIVE_* in the modern context!
If any individual reading this is experiencing these behavioral symptoms, I implore you: _please do not succumb to them!_ Your capacity to observe and react to the world is *temporarily altered* and is not providing you with accurate information that would be appropriate to act upon!
Our emotions are senses, just like hearing and sight; whereas our eyes detect photonic radiation and our ears detect pressure waves, our emotions inform us of the abstract environment around us of intentions and possibilities. But just like our sight and hearing, we can hallucinate or perceive *illusions.*
While suicide MAY have once upon a time served a purpose, in modernity it does not!
Also like our classical senses, change of state is more detectable than state itself. Staring at the same point of a picture for too long will cause the image to blur, fill with noise, and fade away until we move our eyes' focal point. The same can be done with emotion. Allow yourself to sit quietly, acknowledge thoughts that rise but let them fall away without further consideration. The pain WILL fade.
@@Golden-Lady Not encouraging for the sheep.
A very astute analysis. Well said.
Data: (folding his arms)
Me. Stop that...
Ben Geiger , it was a really nice touch how he tried to emulate Geordi there.
I always loved the dynamic between Geordie and Data. They remind me of me and my best friend, closer than family.
There will never be another character like Data, truly unique and in a dark mirror a reflection of myself.
If you've seen Picard, you know what Data chose. I would have loved knowing Data.
Meanwhile, on Star Trek Picard: BOOM! BANG! ZAP! FIGHT! PUNCH! POWEE! BLOOD! GORE! POVERTY! DEPRESSION! CURSE WORDS! IMPULSIVENESS! LOUD NOISES!!!!
TheLadsBand4ever I think you mean Kirk
What a much needed and wonderful lesson from somewhere I least expected. Thanks for uploading
That was his first move towards becoming more like a human. Choosing to persevere after recognizing a seemingly (at first) insurmountable obstacle.
If this was STD or Picard, Gordie would have pulled out a phaser and shot Data bacause his answer was not good enough and danger to everyone. When asked why he shot Data, Gordie would have say because he was an idiot. This is how far Star Trek has fallen!!
If it was STD of Pickerd, Geordie would be recast as a woman.
I love when data crosses his arms
It was this scene here that changed peoples lives. I've seen Q&A sessions where people in the audience talk to the cast and will sometimes mention that star trek changed their life in a profound way, that they overcome suicide because of them. It's just amazing man, such a great show!
Oh Data...always teaching all of us humans about our own humanity.
Suicide is not always the result of deciding that life is unbearable. Sometimes it is a strong urge by a sick mind to self destruct, much like sick cells sometimes do.
Suicide is rebooting and deleting your home directory, then. Thank you for the analogy, Mr. Data.
It's more like logging off of the server.
The world's just a giant MMO. It's horribly unbalanced and unfair, but it is still just a giant MMO.
Probably don't want to hire me as a crisis counselor, lol.
+Eight Virtues I wouldn't want to commit suicide, but there are times when I wish like hell I could make myself forget certain memories, like in that movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.
Son of Tiamat (formerly known as tiakpark) I often feel that way when reading UA-cam comments, or Twitter, or Facebook... Dammit, Internet. :)
Maybe for Data. For us, it's like shutting off the computer and taking out the hard drive and power source.
No, what Data described is more like self-induced amnesia or creating alternate versions of yourself. Some form of him would still exist. Suicide is more like if he had decided to break himself so that he'd never work again.
i love how data mimics geordi's body language when he starts explaining
Thank you . I needed this .
A friend said that, compared to Picard, TNG's acting is stiff. I give you this scene as a counter argument to that.
In general it is true, but this scene is an exception.
Compared to TNG, Picard’s storytelling and handling of serious issues is crap. Star Trek is about a hopeful future above all else, not the dark and brooding dystopia.
@@davemiller6055 Bull. Maybe for the first season and a good chunk of season 2, when they were trying to get their feet under themselves, but from 3 onward the acting was _far_ from stiff.
@@Alamandorious It is still stiff after the first couple of seasons, just not as stiff.
@@DoomKid The writing is separate from the acting. The acting in Picard is superior. I like the story so far in Picard. If everything is always perfect and unblemished, then it gets boring. The hopeful future should face challenges. That is real life. Picard is trying to save the hopeful future.
"It's easy to be a saint in paradise".
~Benjamin LaFeyette Sisko
Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I see the correlation between Data forming new and improved neural pathways for processing/responding to information and humans growing as they learn from new situations. As someone who has always identified with Data, especially in regards to learning how to integrate with humans, I find his little story here very inspiring, as I'm still trying to teach myself the same things he taught himself. It's worth it to see yourself grow, even if it feels unbearable. He came out better for it, and I will too.
As a 58 year old Trekkie I bought into Mr. Roddenberry's vision of the future; hook, line and sinker. But here recently though I've begun to doubt that we'll make it. It seems to me that every day we're becoming more uncivilized as a society, and I honestly thought technology would make things better not worse.
Thanks so much for uploading this. I had forgotten where I got the sentence form. See your problems as a challenge to overcome