House of the Dragon changes has an interesting finale. READ MY PUBLISHED WORK + GET ON WRITING AND WORLDBUILDING VOL I-III linktr.ee/timh... JOIN THE DISCORD / discord
Aegon and Otto by far. Rhys Ifans and Tom Glynn Carney are a fantastic duo to pit against one another to show how great they are at acting, nothing comes close to the raw rage Otto exudes in this scene.
The ending montage and Otto roasting tf out of Aegon. The camera work with the ending montage for the season was just something else. That and the music. Ramin never misses.
The dragons claiming their riders. Seasmoke really pulled a "I just wanted to talk to you about your car's extended warranty" on Addam. Hugh and Vermithor cussed each other out. Silverwing and Ulf just kinda clicked. Silverwing is my new favorite she's so pretty.
There's two scenes that came to my mind as I read this question, one I fully expected and the other took me by surprise! The first is the scene in episode 7 in which Alicent leaves the castle and goes on her little spiritual journey. It genuinely moved me quite a lot, I actually just finished writing a whole rant about Alicent in another comment lmao. The other is the scene in episode 2 if my memory does not fail me in which Otto talks about Viserys and grieves him for a moment _and we are the poorer for it_ is a quote that stuck with me, same as Otto's emotion in that instant. This show definitely has a way of making you emotional at things said even characters you usually despise.
I honestly think the finale was suppose to be Episode 8 of a 10 episode season. Then episode 9 would be the big bombastic penultimate episode with the battle of the gullet and then the finale would have been the pieces in place for the war to continue.
It was confirmed by Elio and Linda (Co-writers of The World of Ice and Fire history book and fact checkers for George himself) that a month before filming began, HBO notified Condal that the show would only be getting 8 episodes in S2 and while they were contemplating (i’m assuming) what to do, the writers and actors strike hit 3 months later, making any sort of rework impossible to do.
So the Daemon vision: This would've been *fine*, except it impacts how Daemon returns to Rhaenyra. He talks about how small they really are and that there are bigger things at play, which is great and all, but it makes the past several episodes of character introspection feel pretty undercut. Like the point of his reflection was to realize all of his mess-ups, the demons he has, what he wish he would've done: be there for his family. I think he should've returned to Rhaenyra not because of some vision of "the bigger story" but rather to be the man he wasn't for Viserys but now for Rhaenyra.
EXACTLY! All the episodes we just spent painfully watching him struggle with his demons, and all that character development that wasted SO MUCH SCREENTIME was literally just undone by him now finally losing the rest of his agency and becoming just another mouthpiece of this prophecy. It was literally all for nothing, and that pisses me off to no end. It's character assassination, pure and simple.
a character can have two motivations lol we only have one scene with daemon and rhaenyra post harrenhall shit u think hes just going to admit to her that hes not fit for the throne in front of hundreds (ik they were speaking in valyrian but still) its like homelander he loves to be loved by people but hes a narcissistic demigod figure who wants to kill everyone, diff motivations dont undercut each other but still the 2 episodes being cut cud have made the execution a little better
@@kjellduteweert9262 I was actually thinking the same thing, it would've been cool if once Alicent saw Daemon affirm his allegience to Rhanerya, that that to her proved his aptitude/worthiness to learn about the ultimate fate of the targaryens and what not.
@@thefirminator No yeah, that makes sense, too! Daemon isn't completely flipped to being a good guy, you'd expect aspects of his original personality to be there (i.e. his pride and such). I just feel like it would've been a MUCH better climax/culmination of his arc if he had returned to Rhaenyra more-so out of a realization of his faults and less-so "well this is my part to play" kinda thing. Like it didn't have to be with Rhaenyra specifically, I suppose. The climax of Daemon's introspection this season just didn't happened, it was abruptly superceded by prophecy. We'll more than likely get this climax in the next season, but it's annoying to have to wait two years to see that lol. And you're totally right, this season needed two more episodes, we were left off at a very weird spot lmao.
To me what is troublesome is that we are not seeing the reactions to the few events that are happening. What's Daemon reaction to the sowing? To Seasmoke having a new rider? Rhaenys death? Where is Hugh's wife? They focused so much on his family and now that he has a dragon where is she? Etc...
@@fatalshore5068He didn't look like he was enjoying himself. He is probably worryed for her, but there is nothing he can do for her right now. At least He thinks that. He is pretty supmissive. He probably thinks he can't ask for a favour from his queen.
@@christopherm.1258 How is he submissive? He smacked some1 for that bag of veggies. He stood his ground and screamed in a dragons face. I think he is exactly the kind of man that would say to the Queen he ain't fighting her war for her unless his wife is taken care of.
@@fatalshore5068 he had to be pushed to the absolute limit to reach those moments though. He was appalled when he heard about merchants hoarding the food thinking he'd never do such a thing, patiently waited for Aegon to pay him as promised for half the season, complied with the City Watch closing the gates when he tried to get out of King's Landing, and only when his daughter was on the brink of death did he decide to punch that guy and take his food. Likewise with claiming the dragon: stood back initially, hid for some time, thought he saw an opening and tried to escape, and only when Vermithor was about to kill that girl did he draw the dragon's attention and scream to his face.
@@Redplane70 idk he still is the king so I feel it's a bit of stretch that no one else in the whole castle seem to be talking to him or paying attention to him. He seems to be pretty darn lucid at this point so there are bound to be other people trying to get in his ear than just larys.
I personally really enjoyed Tyland finally having a storyline, as I love the contrast between him and the Lannisters of Game of Thrones, although I don’t think it was the right timing for the last episode.
@@gunnerjah rheana shouldnt even be on screen. while tyland was annoying to watch due to this being a finale, on a rewatch with all the seasons out, i bet it will be much more fun. I cannot say the same for miss running up that hill Rheana.
For all the faults of this season, they did introduce us to the MVP, the legend, the GOAT, the best character, Ser Simon Strong. I thought he was just going to be a bit player, or only appear for one episode. How happy I am...to have been wrong.
I we’ll agree Simon Strong was the MVP of this season. Just about everything else was a snore fest boring waist of time. It’s was a 7 and 1/2 hour trailer for season 3.
@@10bunks12And it's still the best thing on at the moment. There's literally 16pages of book to work with this season, they done a good job. No matter what they did theres always moaning people especially these days.
I didn´t mind the Daemon arc. In fact I kind of liked it taking a "cool guy bully" out of his element but if you´re THIS short on time, if you are in fact so short on time you can´t even pay it off properly... then CUT it to half! I agree with that.
Didn’t stick the landing for me. Season began much stronger than it ended. Frankly you can’t have a season filled with incredible dragon battles all building up to… a cliffhanger for a promise of future dragon battles.
I personally liked the cliffhanger but I just think the season should have ended after the fall of kings landing with rhaenyra on the throne. The cliffhanger would have had more weight if armies were marching to overthrow the throne that she had just gained. That's my take anyway.
Why not? Had Hobbit 2 ended like this and been somewhat like this, PART 3 would have been much better. I'd love to have had 2 episodes of battle - but it changes nothing because I'd just as much have the whole 4 seasons arrayed before me to watch.
@@jesseandersen4055I assumed that was where they were heading. If rhaenyra had even just been on the cusp of heading into King's landing I would have been happy but just left a bit disappointed.
I think what people really don’t like is now we have to wait like 2 years for it to continue. If season 3 episode 1 was coming out next Sunday people would be hype
Idk about racing. More like we'd have the same reaction as episode 6 and 7.. like "ok ok itsgood but something better start happening soon cause we're running out of time here"
But it wasn´t. I AGREE that if this was 8/10 and they nailed the e10 landing we would go "weak episode but who cares" a week later. But this episode was MESSY no matter where in the season it sits. Sorry but the entire pirate randomness, the jaring out of character conversation between Rhaenyra and Alicent, the scenes for Daemon, Cole, Otto that were hastily thrown in wrap up... that´s not great either way. As it is though, it was the last thing we see for this show for at minimum 2 years! And they didn´t even prewarn us about it. They just tossed it out and pretended it was all normal... hoping we wouldn´t notice? That´s just a massive unneeded own goal for HBO and the show runners. Sorry 🤷♂
OP was that stupid kid we all knew in class who thought he was profound for repeating _"Wherever you go, there you are"_ after he heard it for the first time.
It's important to point out that Bloodraven was *not* in the game of thrones show. He does not have the missing eye, the birthmark, or the name. This is yet another moment of the show placing itself more inline with the book depiction of the main series than the show, which I'm all here for.
@@ElderVault It exactly what they have done elsewhere, which is adopt a sort of middle ground between GoT and the books. For a viewer it’s close enough to the previous show to seem consistent, which dropping more nods towards book readers. I imagine they’ll similar with Dunk and Egg.
While I appreciated what they were trying to do with the meetings between Alicent and Rhaenyra, they did not work for me at all. Apparently anyone can sail into and out of Kingslanding at will despite a double blockade from both sides that are supposed to be stopping and searching all ship traffic. I agree that they had their hands tied with how to pace the show and keep things vaguely in line with the events of the books, but several of their decisions were just baffling to me. I’d give the season a 6.5/10, though with the possibility of that going up if season 3 can pay off this set up in a satisfying way.
Daemon: I have to make sure Daenaerys is eventually born, so that she can burn Kings Landing to ash!!!! Fulfilling the prophesy and saving the world!!!! LMAO
I had a great time watching the finale! It wasn't a flashy episode, but it had so many awesome moments! I love that Helaena went from speaking in riddles to straight up telling Aemond where he's gonna die lol
She was still speaking cryptically though and also ... are you SURE Helaena was speaking? Eh? Eh? I'm not so sure she's the only one cooped up in that head of hers...
I loved it too, felt like being back in the good seasons of Thrones, all schemes and character work! The thing that got me about Helaena giving Aemond spoilers was how she switched midway from future to past tense (you’ll be dead, you were swallowed up), like even from sentence to sentence she’s not sure where in time she’s meant to be. She’s always been my favourite on Team Green, but this episode especially endeared her to me.
@@RainWelsh But they weren't GOOD or logical schemes! Especially the Alicent and Rhaenyra scenes! This was not like early GOT at all. The pacing and the dialogue the show chose to showcase was so bad when they ignored some of the more important convos characters should've been having.
I think Helena’s might have been able to hijack it because it’s a blood tie - she’s probably sensitive to projections and I kinda figured Bloodraven might have just projected Daemon there like he did with Bran. I imagine the magic of the God’s Eye is stronger than tree beyond the wall. I hope we find out at some point!
In the book, Melisandre sees Bloodraven and Bran on the astral plane and says they can see her too. Despite using different kinds of magic, there is a "different ramps to the same highway" aspect to visions and psychic power. Helaena may simply have been dreaming at the same time as Daemon and stumbled upon him, the connection strengthened by bloodties, as you said
ooooh very excited for this video! I remember you asking in previous videos for the opinions of show only watchers due to being interested in how we find the show and its progressions not really knowing where it is all going, and having watched the finale I feel compelled to give my opinion/response to Alicent Hightower's character who is by far my favourite. I want to do this not because I think it will bring any new perspective to the table nor because I think anyone will read it, but simply because her character has moved me greatly and I need to talk about it somehow. I should also say, that not only have I not read fire and blood, I have also not watched Game of Thrones, so I had no previous attachment to this world and its dynamics. Alicent is full to the brim with contradictions in a way that makes her very distinctly human, and the tragedy of her story really hit me in these last two episodes. From the beginning she has been used as a tool by those around her to achieve personal goals, forcing her into the cruelest of situations, all of which she's endured under her belief in duty and sacrifice, all very tied to her religious beliefs and never-ending grief. From the beginning, Alicent feels the need to be clean, to be outside herself, to be cleansed and new. She's never wanted anything else than escape, and we simple see her methods for it become more extreme as time goes on.As a child she picks and peels the skin off her fingers, desperately uncovering a new layer of herself whenever her own feels cornered. It's a tendency that borders on self destructive, and I don't think that's a coincidence. It is both a form of release from her pain, and a punishment for the guilt she feels for not fulfilling, or not wanting to fulfil what it is that she must in her eyes. Then, we move onto baths, she seeks water to cleanse all the dirtiness that insists to grow on her like mold, she drowns herself in it hoping it will wash it all away. It doesn't. So, with her daily baths comes a violent scrubbing of her own body, when I watched this, I thought she seemed to be erasing rather than cleaning herself as she scrubbed the sponge over and over the same spot in her body, one that when red and in pain won’t show like the scars on her fingers. Alicent is perpetually trying to escape her own body, her own reality, _nothing is clean here_ she says, and that includes her. The dirtiness of it all has become too much for her, the scheming, the politics, the bloodshed, the grief, her seat, her dresses, her body, her. So, she searches one last form of cleansing, and as she leaves and wanders into the forest, she suddenly realises how much _more_ there is beyond the red keep. There is a world out there, not everything is confined to those walls, to her duty, to her children. Everything she’s been clinging to means nothing in the grandness of all things, and this realisation is a grief beyond comprehension. Her life, and that of her children and everything she’s put them through, all that duty and sacrifice she gripped so tightly was for nothing. Not because there’s an inevitable war happening, there could be peace, and it would be meaningless regardless. Alicent knows this, and she also knows the grief is too large for her to survive, so she can either drown in that lake, or accept that what is done is done. She can’t change anything that has happened thus far, she cannot undo the pain she’s endured nor the one she’s inflicted on others. She must choose. So, she does, she chooses her daughter, the only soul she still sees to be gentle and loving, the one she can still save. She chooses to leave what she’s done behind and understand that while she might never forgive herself entirely, she must not let the grief that has dominated her her entire life stop her now, now that she might let at least help get one person out of this cycle: her daughter. And if she’s lucky, herself. The only other person she knows she might yet be able to save is Rhaenyra, and with by doing so prevent further bloodshed. It all comes back to her in many ways, there’s a connection between the two that was never broken, and whether they like it or not they’ve been bound forever from the moment Rhaenyra was born the King’s daughter and Alicent the Hand’s. Alicent is going to make it out (this is her conviction at least) with Rhaenyra or without her, but she would much rather see the only person she felt loved by be with her. This is what she emphasises in her conversation with Rhaenyra in the finale, a friend who _loved me_ , not a friend _I loved_ . Everyone else has utilised her, Rhaenyra too, but not always. At some point, Rhaenyra loved Alicent, and that’s all that matters to her, because she is so desperate for that love that died with her mother. Alicent has come to terms with all her contradictions and hypocrisy, and perhaps with her childhood feelings for Rhaenyra as well, which were always bordering a romantic wonder. Which is why she stands in front of Rhaenyra _clean_ , to try to salvage whatever remains of the friend, of the love she had. If she can, perhaps everything else will be restored as well. But there’s no going back now. That’s the tragedy really, not of Alicent Hightower or Rhaenyra Targaryen, but of the show as a whole. There’s no going back and history will forget all about the woman who found the strength withing herself to try and free herself from what everyone else clung to with the sharp nails which she bit off long ago. Or rather they’ll paint her a cruel woman, cold and power hungry just as Rhaenyra says, but isn’t that the same thing? Anyways, I know a lot of people are dissatisfied with changed from the books or with Alicent's character in general, but I sincerely have loved her, and I think Olivia Cooke's performance is masterful. I just thought that perhaps someone may appreciate what someone got from her character having had no previous attachment to her or to Westeros. If someone actually read all this (I got more carried away than I thought, and I'm not quite sure I did what I set out to do because I lost myself halfway through) thank you and I hope you have a great day!
No, thank *you*! This was a very enjoyable essay, and if you had the desire to post it somewhere else (like on Quora, in a Song of Ice and Fire or HotD group) you might get better readership for it.
Wow! I love your analysis of Alicent's character and I think it's really on point especially with that last scene of her walking and the rising sun, as if marking a new beginning for her.
@@joywagner979 Oh my god thank you so much! I don't know if I'll post it anywhere else, I just wanted to get it off my chest but I really appreciate your answer and I might consider it!
First of all thank you so much! And secondly exactly! I don't know where season 3 will take her but this is clearly a new beginning for Alicent, and I don't know that she can ever go back to who she was (nothing and no one can ever go back once they do something in this show). She stripped herself away from her symbolic green clothing and went back to blue, the colour she wore as a child and as Rhaenyra's friend, and while she can't have that childhood back she is free to begin anew. The rising sun you mention, combined with her blue dress and goodbye to Rhaenyra all works together to symbolise this new beginning. I'm excited to see where it will go, though a little scared too, I may not have read the books but I know tragedy has only just begun.
Rhaenyra wants to be easily accepted as ruler like Aegon and Aegon wants to be the realms delight, the good times guy and only part of the royal family, rhaenyras former role. They both could have gotten what they desire if it wasnt for gender and politics of older people. I kinda feel sorry for Aemond and Aegon. Beeing groomed into beeing terrible people by their mother and grandfather and then beeing offered to die by said mother to end a war she made them start.
@@anna2731groomed does not mean sexual abuse in every context. Grooming has mutiple uses like grooming your hair. Grooming your children can mean raising your children and grooming can also mean sexual abuse
@@anna2731 Grooming means to raise your child in a special way to make it fill a role thats decided beforehand. It doesnt have to be sexual. Alicent did not just raise her children, she was grooming them. We even got grooming scenes in Season 1.
@@anna2731grooming has never exclusively meant sexual grooming. I'm really sorry if this triggered something personal for you. I'm sure no one meant to do that
I don’t like how they made Daemon arrive at the conclusion he did, in fact I kind of hate it. Overall, I’ve been loving the Harrenhal scenes - certainly more than most of the fanbase - and while I did enjoy the aesthetic of the final dream sequence… it just feels so out of character for Daemon. Daemon is a character who views himself as the decisive man of action, the definition of main character syndrome who thinks he and only he has the ability to change history and save his House. Now, this season has gone to great lengths to put him on an arc of change, to make him understand that he’s not the most important person in the world, that he actually has remorse for what he’s done and he’s capable of showing restraint rather than indulging his impulses to get what he wants. But at his core, he still should have that “I write my own fate” aspect to his character, which is what leads into throwing away the idea of being King in his own name. He doesn’t want the power but he wants to help Rhaenyra get there. Overall, I love that idea. …But making it so the final reason that pushes him over the edge is prophecy? It just feels wrong. Daemon can embrace the magical aspects of Targaryen history and his world, but he should never lose sight of his desire to write his own story. Giving up on that and simply accepting that he’s a pawn of destiny doesn’t just feel contradictory to his character, it feels extremely cheap and weak. Rather than explaining why he truly believes in Rhaenyra now, he simply pivots to “Well the magic tree says she has to, and that’s good enough for me!” They could have done SO much more with him that gave him a magically related arc while still making his decisions his own. What’s more, it feels contradictory to George’s themes. In spite of the obvious shenanigans of Bloodraven/TTB, every character consciously wants to choose their own fate, that’s very important for them because it’s very important to George that you dispel the idea of myth and destiny and prophecy guiding character actions more than anything else, because that is ultimately what drives people. So making Daemon, of all people, the one who submits to the role that destiny had laid out for him feels so out of place for George’s work despite embracing the outward aesthetic of spooky dream magic. I’m very much not a fan of where this turned, when I was so enjoying the majority of Harrenhal scenes before this.
I agree with you. It felt kinda weird when I was watching it, and you put my feeling into words, which is something I'm not great at. I've felt kinda weird about the prophecy aspect of the show for a while now, especially this season. I think the fanbase recognizes it as usual Targ shit believing their own hype and thinking they're the main characters cause they have dragons, and the Dance would be a lesson on hubris and its consequences. I still feel like they'll go that route, but it feels weird cause they've kinda been playing the prophecy straight. Rhaenyra is the obvious choice for a good ruler. She's just (most of the time), kind (most of the time), and feels that the throne isn't just her right, it's a duty to be held. She seems to be heading into the direction of being more ruthless, which will be interesting to see, but a common criticism I've seen is that HOTD changes the Dance from a conflict between terrible people for petty reasons into a black/white good vs evil story. While I don't 100% agree with that, I understand where that criticism comes from.
1000% agree with this. It feels like the director had a vision sequence to work in, which isn’t a bad idea to close out a vision sequence arc, but then took away all of the Daemon’s agency in favor of some flashy fan service for imagined Game of Thrones fans instead of actual Daemon fans
I completely see where you're coming from! I feel like my thoughts on it will become more grounded as the show progresses. He will need another story arch for season 3 so it will be interesting to see where they take it!
The same effect could be done just after s02e07 when he realized that governing is not for him. If he needed to have a prophecy in his arc, Wide Walkers should have been sufficient (as then he would understand Viserys and his prophecies)... But anything on top is just lame.
Another aspect that was affected by the strikes during the shows production is that the writers weren't allowed to edit the scripts DURING the production, something thats very important in making shows. Instead, they were forced to stick to the original script and not diverge whatsoever. Its why they added the kiss between rhaenyra and mysaria. It was one of the few changes they were allowed to do
It was good to see someone not just bashing the episode and then using that to bash the entire show. The show has been overall great, and it sucks how HBO made them cut down what was clearly meant to be a 10 episode season and then not give them the time to do it because of the writers' strike. Clearly it could have been handled better, but I do think the showrunners are going to give us payoff. They aren't Steven Moffat, and I think next season will hopefully put the show back where it needs to be.
HOTD isn’t as good as Thrones at its peak, but it’s nowhere near as bad as the last few seasons. I’d say it’s between season 4 and 5 in terms of writing quality, so if the show at the very least stays at the level I’ll be fine with it.
@@uniguy2126i mean saying its not as good as GoT at its peak is a given. GoT seasons 2-4 are probably the 3 greatest continuous seasons of drama televisions ever produced and if not the best then certainly top 3. Being as good as GoT at its peak was never gonna happen
I hate how important visions/prophecies have become in the show. It would have been a much better character arc for Daemon if the visions made him slowly realize that he would not be a good ruler, but Rhaenyra would. Now, he only bends the knee for Rhaenyra because he saw a vision of the White Walker threat (something the Targaryens did not even stop, Arya did). It takes away from free will
I didn’t like the cliffhanger, but I can’t blame the writers for it considering the budget cuts. What I will blame them for is the atrocious dialogue between Alicent and Rheanyra. They spent the whole season exploring how she regrets the way she raised her children, and that she feels helpless now that they’re in positions of power. So now she’s just sacrificing them? Am I supposed to believe that one conversation with her former best friend is supposed to not only undo all the hate and vitriol between eachother, but also convince Alicent to sacrifice her children? This feels especially contrived when you consider how guilty she feels about indirectly sending Aegon to what was almost his death. I think it would’ve been much better if Alicent backed out of her peace offer after hearing the conditions.
@@unc54Her fear was never rightful. It was something Otto putted into her mind. She knew Rhaenyra wouldn't do something like that, but Otto said she would be stupid to ignore the posibility. Also they never purely hated each other. In the 20 years they tryed to make peace with each other, but failed time and time again. They were even friends already in episode 4 of season 1.
It's clearly not that scene that makes Alicent change her mind. Come on man. At least put some thought into your criticism. This whole season has been Alicent getting a big old lesson of "reaping what you sow". She thought claiming the throne would be good for her and her family. Only to lose a grandchild, see her kids hurt and attack each other, not to mention being sidelined by her own sons. Alicent was clearly on the "Find out" part of her "fuck around" arc. The conversation with Rhaenyra is just the tail end of her descent into regret. She finally saw what her power grab will lead to and what it already cost. Seeking a way to stop the war and save as much as she can of her family is understandable, despite of what Rhaenyra throws at her face being completely true.
@@LightningRaven42Thank you. Some criticisms about Alicent and Rhaenyra completely miss the point the whole season has been building up to this moment. Alicent found out that playing with fire will burn you.
@@christopherm.1258 And S1E4 ended with Rhaenyra lies getting Otto sent away and then S1E5 Alicent finds out Rhaenyra slept with a Kingsguard. S1E6 starts off with 10 years of Alicent making life terrible for Rhaenyra. S1E7 we see Viserys look the other way when Aemond gets his eye sliced out because he wants to protect Rhaenyra's lies. S1E10 Aemond kills Luke and S2E1 Daemon orders a hit on Alicent's grandson. The idea that this relationship is not only intact but especially for Alicent has taken preference over her family is mind-bogglingly dumb.
My wife saw my comment and shamed me endlessly for being mean about the camera focus, and since I missed my window to erase it and pretend I never sent it, there’s nothing else for it but to apologize. Sorry, Tim! 😇 appreciate the hard work you do!
Not boring or slow. Good show about political machinations, character development, and magic. Prestige television has always been lots of talky talky. And that’s good. I like it. 🎉
I can understand why people didn't enjoy this season. I'm someone who enjoyed it a lot. I already know how this story ends. So I want to take my time getting there, maybe even learning more about the characters involved. Harrenhal has always been fascinating to me. As much as I'm not a fan of Daemon brooding around... I loved learning more about this gargantuan Castel that plays a role in so many events throughout the series.
What a voice of reason. you've provided for Season 2 and the finale. I mostly agree. Plus, consider what is written, historically, in a book is never what actually took place in real time. I keep that mentality when watching an adaptation of a book. It doesn't have to be an exact copy, word for word. Just like every detail of a great battle is hardly ever provided from ancient history. We often just get one side, which will be slanted to favor the victors. The details, we must fill in ourselves. Those writers on House of the Dragon have taken the task to provide details from a book that is, as you said, just major points, without this much detail. It's a huge task and I just enjoy the ride from the back of a dragon and let it take me where it will.
My take on Episode 8 is that it's a very good episode, but the season as a whole suffers from the lack of two more episodes. Every indication is that HBO basically did a rugpull and told the showrunners to cut two episodes at the last minute, and that (in part due to the writer's strike) they weren't able to rewrite the season to be 8 episodes. I think the season was still pretty good! It's very upsetting that it abruptly ended! I hope they manage to handle the pacing of S3 okay despite that!
How can people say there’s no comedy in this show when we have the Rhaena scenes? 😂 I burst out laughing every time they cut back to a Targaryen princess - effectively if not De Jure - being allowed to wander the wilderness and not once did she meet an Arryn guard, a shepherd or a Vale tribesman. All they had to do was show a scene where one of the guards goes to her tent and it’s empty, him panicking because he can’t find her, then cut to her in the wilderness. That at least would be somewhat excusable but still not by much because she’s putting everyone in the Vale at risk with her stupidity because if she dies, Rhaenyra is within her rights to nuke the Eyrie for not protecting her. This was just such a dumb, reckless, needless action because they could have just given us Nettles and that would be fine. How is this subplot not the purest comedy gold you’ve ever seen in your life? 🤣
That makes absolutely no sense. There are plenty of historic royals who went off into the countryside on their own. Outside of the mountains, the Vale is peaceful, not highly populated, and not particularly dangerous. And the idea that Rhaenrya would “nuke the Eyrie” for not telling an adult princess what to do is hilarious - she has been sent there to protect the Eyrie, not the other way around.
@@ZveeboIn their own countryside during peacetime, maybe. When there’s a civil war going on and Rhaena is somewhere she’s never been before? No, they absolutely did not allow that in medieval history. 😂 That is completely irrelevant, she should not be allowed to wander around regardless of how safe it’s supposed to be. And it’s clearly not that deserted. Where Sheepstealer can find sheep, he should be finding farms or shepherds, it’s kinda implausible that he’d find one but not the other. No, she’s been sent there to help protect Aegon and Viserys but she is very much in the camp of people who should be protected. How does she protect the Vale? What’s she gonna do at the Greens, stare at them? 🤣
I didn't quite follow what her story is. There's a dragon outside Castle Arryn, we see her leaving with Lady Arryn glaring at her, then she wanders around chasing dragon activity and looking panicky. I thought she'd been kicked out
@@Longshanks1690 It is her own countryside. The Vale is loyal to Rhanerya and there are no battles going on anywhere nearby. It’s about as safe a place as you get in Westeros. You’re just making up bizarre rules that don’t exist and have never existed so you can get red faced and furious about something.
@@Zveebo Come ON. You are not seriously arguing that is “her” countryside when she’s never been there before? Brfr 💀 As opposed to you who makes wild assumptions so as to justify not bursting out laughing at what is self-evidently a hilarious collection of scenes? 🙄
Maybe they shouldn't have made a whole season on 16 pages of a book... I think the reason why the first seasons of GoT were so intersting and complex was that they had 1 entire book within those seasons. Obviously the writing style isn't the same, but in the end of the day, in HOTD they had to create 80% of the scenes from scratch and they aren't GRRM (which is the person whose writing people fell in love with).
For me, I just don't enjoy Setup Seasons. Because we can only set things up, pay almost nothing off and head into the next season with debt. We ended season one saying, "War is coming". Then we ended season two saying, "War is coming". It just feels like we never took a step forward. Just stood in place and circled each other. All in all, I end this season where I ended Season One; Interested, but not really excited about the next season. I'll watch out of FOMO, but nothing else.
Thank you for all these episode recap/analysis you've been doing! I thoroughly enjoyed the show (with some criticism here and there) but having your viewpoint on it and the little maps showing what is happening where (plus some book details without ever going into spoilers) really helped me enjoy it even more! Won't be there for RoP, but see you for the future asoiaf stories!
I personally loved the Tyland stuff. I wish we would have gotten it earlier in the season, to shake things up. It was so refreshingly different from everything else!
Dear anyone saying this show should've ended on a big battle: remember when GOT had only one big scene like this a season and didn’t rely on pure spectacle to be good, but rather a compelling story with the occasional hype moment? Yeah that's what MADE game of thrones GAME OF THRONES. It had one big moment and that was ALWAYS in episode 9. NEVER the finale. Hell in season 5, the big moment was in episode 8. But whatever you say about the writing, at least we can all agree that the technical aspects, the cinematography, and score are outstanding. Some of the shots in this finale alone were masterpieces. The one of Rhaenyra silhouetted against the scrolls is beautiful storytelling at its finest. The way the camera moved when the Winter Wolves got to twins was just....AHH it just scratches my brain real good.
I think sometimes people mistake "characters making dumb decisions" for "dumb writing." It can be due to bad writing (see: most of the happenings in latter seasons of Game of Thrones), but not always. Real people often make stupid and irrational decisions, so good writing will necessarily reflect characters making stupid or irrational decisions. If any of that makes sense!
@@joywagner979The difference is we didn’t get a climatic moment in episode 7. Yes, there were the Dragon riders, but that was more of an escalation than a climax. It was certainly nothing like the Battle of Black Water in season 2. Imagine if season 2 of Game of Thrones ended right before the battle.
I think the problem is that the climax was around the first half with Rhaenys death instead of the second half. So people can't appreciate the current season due to the pacing.
I didn't dislike the episode, but it was my least favorite ep of S2. The tone was a little bit weird oscilating between Tyland as a comic relief and the profecy and other more serious stuff. Alicent visiting Rhaenyra felt repetitive. The ep is devoted to closing subplots but then Rhaena doesn't get to ride her dragon (or die trying) after all the screentime dedicated to her. I also dislike when precuels lean soooo much on their predecessor (it reminded me of ROP a little 😂): it draws me out of the story only to remind me that GOT S8 was terrible and that we'll probably never get the remaining books of ASOIAF 😣😅
Alicent visting Rhaenyra was key imo, because its the reversal of what Rhaenyra's been trying all season. Peace, peace, peace. But now Alicent goes to beg for peace after month's of carnage because she's realized what she's done - the crowning, Aegon, Aemond, the riots - and now Rhaenyra and her new dragonriders, its over for the Green's.
Episode 2 was great most other things were just okay. Why the fuck did they make Halaena able to tap into the weirwood net. Also where tf is the glass candle? That's the only way anyone can shape the dreams of another unless you are hooked up to the tree. GRRM magic has limits you can't just do shit. Because why doesn't she Halaena in turn show more people this vision.
Just because most people use glass candles to alter dreams doesn't mean it's the only way. George has said his magic is not hard-coded, things can happen that are abnormal or unexplainable. It's really not a system to criticize for bending to cool moments.
The funny thing about Alicent agreeing to let Aegon (and Aemond, as prince-regent) die, is that she warned them about this in season one and thought it was a threat that they needed to act to prevent. The truly hilarious thing, though, is that it only became necessary because they acted and crowned Aegon king. If the greens hadn't rebelled, then Aegon and Aemond wouldn't need to die.
I quite like this season as a whole and I wholeheartedly agree with the criticisms. I don't know which kind of constraints they were working under, but some scenes could've been better rearranged and some storylines should've been compressed in favor of giving us more scenes better some characters like Corlys and Rhaenyra.
I did not see this as Helaena and Alys being connected in any way beyond both having a connection to the prophecy network basically. Maybe they've seen each other while both on the line, but Helaena pretty clearly has a constant connection while Alys can log off.
Did you notice that Helaena didn't use the future when talking to Aemond about his fate? It was something like "You were swallowed up in the God's Eye and never seen again".
Its frustrating to me how their not letting the Blacks do wanton violence, or at least be acknowledged for it. Rhaenyra is clearly forcing the dragonseeds to die for her war, she sends the boats of food as a manipulation tactic only after Mysaria encourages her, but the show treats it as if she actually cares about the smallfolk and not killing people. And this is such a weird place to end a season. Feels like there should be another episode or this episode should have been the first episode of season 3. But I am excited for season 3.
I think that the show leaves that hypocrisy or double face of the Blacks there on purpose. It's not that the show doesn't acknowledge the violence against the small folk, but more like the characters don't want to acknowledge it, Rhaenyra doesn't want to. She spends the whole season trying to justify herself (and the noble class) for their right to enact this violence be it bc of their noble bloodline, the gods and prophecies, the dragons, etc. She's always trying to appear more moral, just, and less power hungry than the Greens bc she "didn't want the crown". She thinks of the small folk and talks about her worries but it's just words, no real action to change things. She's only willing to change the status quo if it benefits her (like with the "army of bastards") and she ends up using these people. On Mysaria's character I say that we all want to follow a leader and we often convince ourselves that they are the right person to change things and do good when most often than not, they are same as those who came before them.
10:42 I think the visions and the constant reflection through the season on what it means to have the crown is why he bends the knee to her; the visions just solidified his feelings. he didn’t seem fond of the idea of betraying her when Alfred Broom tried to persuade him.
Thank you SO MUCH on giving us the overview of the conflict, with the map and all. It really gave me the clarity I needed to truly appreciate the stakes and conflict(s) of the show. It's a true shame they didn't manage to give us that in the show. Also, I'm curious, as your specialty seems to be on fantasy and science fiction writing, if you would, and how would you dissect the writing of a show like The Wire, truly anchored in real "present" (well, a decade or two ago anyway) time.
I have a couple issues with the season as a whole that the finale has made me contemplate more. The first is that these just feel like different characters from the first season. The second half of the season was largely focused on the Blacks and the Greens anticipating a succession crisis and bracing for impact. I liked that we saw a bit of a play for peace at the end, but Lucerys' death should have been the final nail in the coffin. We saw these factions schism further and further apart for decades, only for the bulk of the season to be taken up by characters trying to find a peaceful resolution (after children have been killed on both sides, I might add!) Alicent tried to cut out a child's eye to avenge Aemond in season 1 and now she serves Aegon up to Rhaenyra on a silver platter? She urged him to seize the throne because if Rhaenyra took it, she would kill him, and now she helps Rhaenyra do exactly that? None of the deaths have much narrative consequence beyond writing characters out of the show. The deaths of Lucerys, Jahaerys, even Rhaenys, do not seem to be felt by any of the surviving characters just two episodes after they happened. For more nitpicky complaints, by my estimation, a week or two has passed between the first and second season, which lead to some sillier anachronisms like Jace's hair growing out, but Alicent getting lonely in Viserys' absence and turning to Cole feels like a quick turnaround unless their relationship began when Viserys was still alive, in which case, why weren't we shown that? Also, a princess runs off into the hills of the Vale and nobody notices or cares. I have pacing and thematic issues that tie into events and characterization from the book, so book spoilers below. You covered this somewhat in the video, but I think the book has plenty of things to keep things interesting, many of which were cut from the show. Jace's relationship with Cregan Stark (one of the characters I was most excited to see!) lasts just a few minutes, Daeron is offscreen, Baela and Rhaena have so little development, and Nettles is cut entirely (another one of my favorite characters). There are so many interesting characters from the book that could have seen more development, but instead we got more Daemon visions (I liked that Harrenhal is spookier and Alys was great, we just didn't need it to last a whole season), repetitive Black council meetings, and endless handwringing over whether or not they were actually going to war. The issue isn't that the plot didn't have enough going on, it's that the show decided to condense the cast and stretch out their stories instead of giving the side characters more weight. My last, and perhaps largest, issue is that the characters are too sanitized from their book counterparts. As you said, George R. R. Martin's books focus on the actions of stupid, power hungry people. The Dance happens because both sides are forced into a desperate situation by a dysfunctional system and a weak king. They become violent and power hungry and it leads to the downfall of their house at the expense of the realm. Now, I like that many of the characters are more sympathetic, but it's so important that these are not good people. They commit horrible atrocities in pursuit of the throne. The change to make it ambiguous whether Daemon actually told Blood and Cheese to kill Jahaerys removes one of the Blacks' worst crimes, and overall the show frames them as the "good guys" as opposed to a rival faction that is almost as morally bankrupt as the Greens. I think the changes to Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship was really, really well done in season 1 and the change to make them close in the beginning only to split apart makes things all the more tragic. But that's what it should have been-- a tragic "what might have been." I'm reminded of the Maester Aemond quote "love is the death of duty... but sometimes duty is the death of love." The Dance of the Dragons pits families, friends, and lovers, against each other. The show's insistence to have Rhaenyra and Alicent continue to try to work things out undercuts what could have been an incredible tragedy, where all bridges were burnt in season 1. The show keeps the plot beats roughly the same as the books, but has changed the characterization to undercut many of the book's thematic elements relating to corruption and power as these characters descend into the war.
I think that the first season of hotd was one of the best seasons of television ever, and by comparison this season was disappointing for most people. Imo, this show has some of the best acting I've ever seen, top to bottom and that is still on display in season 2. As others have said, this season felt a little incomplete, like they cut some episodes or story beats somewhere, but I would still consider this excellent television. If you consider season 1 a 9.5/10 or a 10/10, then I would consider season 2 to be a 7/10. I think that it is especially good compared to the rest of the television landscape in 2024. I would absolutely consider it the best show this year.
-There is definitely character evolution if you know to analyze them. Daemon being at Harrenhall definitely evolved his arc and was necessary for his character. As for Rhaena's plot, wtf is she doing? -I hate useless shock value things like Meleys bursting through the floor, Vhagar using stealth and teleportation to kill Meleys. Triarchy fight scene seems added later in the plot development and also useless. Mysaria and Larys don't use ''little birds", how do they spy? In the original GoT this is shown while having dialogue between characters and pushing the plot forward. Melinda Massey is wearing a red cloak just for the trailer to make us think there will be a red priestess in the show. -Cinematography is great, but I miss the vibrant colors of the original first 4 Got seasons. Please more natural vibrant colors while outdoor. -The GoT has so many scenes were multiple things happen: Tywin scolding his children, planning future war moves, great dialogue while writing the letter to the Freys. HoT should have more of this.
bro I love your episode reviews, I love your joy about it!!! thanks for not dwelling on negative views, I am 100% sure that must be a conscious decision on your part. I am doing the same in my own enjoyment of the show. This season was phenomenal, and I admire the actors so much. The cast interviews are real fun, and I am so excited about where things will go in season 3. thanks for your hard work with these videos and the fun little memes! I hope you see all the castles you want to see in Europe!
Amidst all the mixed opinions of Season 2, I have to say I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your weekly review episodes. They’ve actually been one of my favorite parts about the show! It’s nice to see you be more forgiving and not overly critical. Also really like that you film outdoors, it’s refreshing and is a nice touch. Can’t wait to see you in 2026 for Season 3!!
Glad to hear somebody with a legitimately good opinion. I literally had to leave all the ASOIAF subreddits because they were full of nothing but people complaining.
I've had people insulting me for not repeating their own opinions on what the story should be. This community is rancid at times. Glad to see some content creators with more nuance than the average viewer.
I think that the Targaryen dreamers are the same as greenseers like jojen reed and bran stark, but because there are so few greenseers the lack of knowledge of the other ones means that they have different names for them. I think the two being the same thing helps to explain why the Targaryen dreamers know of the white walkers and the night king. I think the clearest link between the two is brynden rivers, aka bloodraven, the three eyed crow. He was born a bastard son of aegon v and of course ends up being the three eyed crow, which creates a clear link between the Targaryen bloodline and the greenseers. Furthermore, the visions bran experienced whilst his powers were untrained were incredibly disjointed and rapid, similar to the one seen by daemon. To me, it makes more sense for dreamers and greenseers to be one and the same, just referred to by different names due to the different cultures that the houses originated from, especially considering how similar they are.
Unlikely. Firstly, Jojen isn't a greenseers; he has green dreams but a greenseers he is not. He explicitly denies it. At least in the books he does. But he is equivalent to Targaryen dreamers. Actual greenseers on the other hand are far more powerful than Targaryen dreamers.
I like they take it slow. My favorite scenes is where they show how mighty the dragons are, without them needing to fight. Vhagar hiding in the woods, the dragonseeds and the dragons interaction, (Straight out of Jurassic park), seeing the dragons play and make an impact on the world.
Problem I have with thess visions is that these are literal and in your face. They aren't abstract and, therefore, makes for characters that want to either prevent it or make sure it happens. They will now try to prevent it, or will look stupid not to. George writes prophecy in a manner that is abstract and vague, because it influences character's choices towards their own demise. It is stuff like Cersei believing that Tyrion will kill her, but that it ends up being Jaime or any other younger brother instead. Or that Jon Snow is most likely Azor Ahai, because he was born beneath a bleeding star, but that star was the sword Dawn that Ned took with him into the tower. HOTD often tries to mimick George's style, but they never really seem to know the logic and consequences that are involved with it. Stuff like that dragons aren't nomadic and that they stay in one place. MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE SEASON 4 OF THE SHOW: YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED: These images of dead dragons were literal. We literally saw the aftermath of Tumbleton. We literally saw Bloodraven. We hear Helaena tell Aemond about his literal demise. So now it will never make sense why Aemond chooses to confront Daemon above the God's Eye. Hell, it doesn't even make sense for Aemond to move to Harrenhal.
I feel like i’m the only one that enjoyed this episode somehow I think how the episode managed to culminate multiple plot points made it whole for me rather than seeing this epic conclusion to set up next season. Most of this season was relegated to character work (hence why Daemon was on his drug escapade) and i liked it much more than the trickling sweeps that S1 had. My only issues stems from how much GoT impacts how our characters motivations and the constant acknowledgement of ASOIAF. Even in S1 i felt it was too much and tbh if this episode was THE only time we get to watch a throughline connection with HoTD and GoT then i wouldn’t be as upset but even then the ending to GoT still leaves a bad taste in my mouth so i’d rather it just not be referenced at all I also felt some scenes had more screen time than they should (like Tyland, Alicent/Raenyhra) and it’s clear the episode was meant as a setting a stage for a larger stage than what’s been set before even if 99% of this season was meant for this war to go down. Regardless, i enjoyed how everything wrapped up for this season and compared to most other series out atm this show at its worst is 1000x better than most so even if it didn’t stick the landing completely it still has much more going for it than say ur Acolytes or Rings of Power, yk?
Excellent analysis! This season had some of my all time top GoT moments. But also really needed a couple more writing passes to tighten up some character arcs and show rather than tell in other places. Subtext was a bit too surface level in some scenes. It really felt like this season suffered from getting cut back to 8 eps after having written a 10 ep season without the ability to rewrite due to the strike.
An interesting theory on Halaena is that Bloodraven went into the past and altered her mind in a similar way that Bran messed up Hodor, but in a less disastrous fashion. That would explain how she's able to see things, because she is constantly going back and forth from the past/future and the present. She essentially becomes a vessel for Bloodraven to share knowledge and insight through space and time.
I think the image of the dead dragons near a fortress is meant to evoke the storming of the Dragonpit (in a similar way Dany sees a vision of dead men feasting at a banquet overseen by a sorrowful wolfman alluding to Red Wedding in book 2) but also I think is generally symbolic of the destruction wrought by the Dance as a whole as they all vy for the Red Keep and Iron Throne.
Otto could have been with the army marching from Oldtown instead hanging out in a cell somewhere. But I suppose we will get Daeron as a perspective there next season, and we need Otto in King's Landing when it falls to Rhaenyra if they're sticking to what happens in F&B. Edit: I actually think we should have had Otto treating with the Triarchy, as it was his plan in the book, and we could've had some more Otto goodness throughout this season.
I interpreted it cutting to Halaena after Daemon's vision as "she sees everything that he's seeing right now but ALL THE TIME". She already knows everything that Daemon did. Or, alternatively, she was pulled into Daemon's vision because of their blood relation since she's sensitive to those visions anyways.
I think Helaena is also tied to the old god via her Hightower lineage, and that the weirwoods were orchestrating the vision, Alys, and Helaena. The trees gave daemon information about the song of ice and fire that originally came from dragon dreams. A whole different kind of magic. Helaena seems like the link.
This is the best synopsis of episode 208 I’ve seen. Knowing that season 1&2 is less than 20 pages & that the plot line has several paths to go helps quell any annoyance that I felt. Thank you!
It’s hard for me to get into the Alicent and Rhaenyra scenes because it seems absurd to me that they’re sneaking into enemy territory all the time. I really loved the triarchy scenes though. Glad to see a fellow Ser Simon fan. Five seasons is way too many imo!
I like to imagine that when Helaena told Daemon "you know what you must do", she was talking about something that he has to do with Aemond at the God's Eye
I ended up reading Fire and Blood after season 2 ended, and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would since I had heard it was written more like a history book. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the first two seasons overall in a video that includes spoilers.
I reckon Otto was imprisoned by House Beesbury. House Beesbury's revolt was mentioned a couple of times this season, and I reckon they captured him en route to Oldtown after his dismissal.
I’m getting really sick of the darker, more vicious aspects of the Dance being brushed aside so Sara Hess can double down on her Rhaenyra/Alicent angst. Like… It’s over, there is no chance they can ever go back to the way things were. Alicent’s grandchild was butchered, as was Rhaenyra’s own son. Why is that not more of an issue? Alicent spent years abusing Rhaenyra, and poisoning her own children against Rhaenyra’s. And all her self-defeating schemes, her resentment, her bitterness, it played a part in the events which led to little Lucerys’s violent death. Rhaenyra should be *furious* with her. Friendship be damned. Alicent’s characterization is a mess at this point, and Rhaenyra even entertaining the notion of working things out with her is absurd. The Dance is a dynastic collapse, a civil war between members of the same family. Not a sappy, tragic tale of two sad girls pitted against one another.
there were definitely pacing issues but honestly I'm putting most of the blame on the execs and the writers' strike (not that the strike was a bad thing ofc). The finale was very anticlimactic but that makes sense if they had 2 eps cut out last minute. and I think a lot of things should have been given more or less screen time throughout the season, but if they didn't have the editing time they'd planned for that also makes sense. Also I'm so glad you mentioned the Green Man bc I haven't seen anybody else talking about it and I was starting to wonder if I'd hallucinated that
This was a mixed season. I think I liked it more than most, because I enjoy people arguing in rooms. Episode 1 to 4 and 6 and 7 were good. But episode 5 was boring and the finale left a sour taste in my mouth.
I think what your point about Martin's writing being more focused on character ignores is that those battle scenes often served to further develop a character. It's rarely about the battle itself but about how a character's arc comes to a dramatic crossroads where they will have to make decisions that will irrevocably change their trajectory. That's what's missing in this season of HotD to me.
My dad and I have never read the books but we still enjoy the show very much! My dad has a theory that Daemon is the one going to end up being the Winter King from GOT
*”…you will be swallowed by the EYE of the god, never to be seen again.”* That would have been a more interesting & slightly ambiguous reading of Daemon’s future by Haelena. 😁
I loved this season. As a book reader seeing some of the magic and fantasy elements being used was really cool. I feel we are super ready for next season. I kinda liked the slower pace and spending time with the characters but I can understand people wanted a little more pay off. HBO really should have not dropped the last 2 episodes especially in the manner they did. I give my props the the show runners for keeping the show in the rails
Your reviews of HotD have been by far the best I have seen! Very well done! They are balanced and fair! You don't go into mindless fan boying but also don't outright criticised stuff because "it's not in the book" or "they are pushing their woke agenda", which I have seen way too often. As someone who has played a very small part in the making of this show, I can attest to the absolute passion of the people involved in it (at every level). I do believe that the strike really impacted the season with the last 2 episodes being pushed back, but hey, it's not like they have been cut. We are still getting them. I know patience is not a modern virtue.
I don't think Helaena is actually in the vision. The vision comes from the weirwood, and maybe those trees have something to do with Helaena's visions, but Helaena herself seems to be a passenger in the vehicle of her visions rather than the driver of them. The weirwoods "know" Helaena has these gifts and conjure a vision of her in Daemon's mind the way they conjure visions of other people from Daemon's life. Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laena, Daemon's mom, and everyone else he has hallucinated is not actually there or controlling his visions either.
Season 2 leaves me with the exact same „oh damn, it‘s gonna go down“ feeling that season 1 did I know it‘s technically not so but it just feels like nothing happened to me where season 1 had time jumps every 2 episodes to fit all the history they cramed into one season and they made it work
I think the cutting of the 2 episodes hurt the pacing of this season. I think they could have done without the Rhaenyra & Alicent secret meetup scenes. They didn’t really add much to the story. Overall I liked the season 6.5/10. I can’t wait for battle of the Gullet, Tumbleton 1&2, and Aemond v Daemon above the Gods Eye. GRRM is my favorite author and I love the world that he has created for these books/shows. Big fan of your writing channel happy I found this channel too.
It felt like the episode where they move all the pieces on the board so that they can pay it off the following episode... Only weve got to wait a year (or 2) for the pay off, so theyll have to remind everyone what's going on in like 10 minutes at the start of next season
I mostly loved it. It was far better than it could've been, with the season being shortened. They did the best they could considering that restriction. The remaining big players were fleshed out more. Daemon finally discovered a purpose in life, something which, as the spare heir, he'd never had before, and it wasn't remotely what he expected it to be (that aimlessness was always at the core of his problems, I think, especially once he was removed from succession), and he managed to stare his own death in the face and emerge from it stronger. The final scenes of all the players moving to take their places on the chessboard was pretty masterful. It was the perfectly natural point to end a chapter and season, ready to start a new chapter in the next. A huge amount of the people complaining seem concerned with spectacle rather than story, though not everyone, and I'm completely the other way. We had the spectacle - that battle was astounding - and it happened at the right point. Racing through to shoehorn another battle into a truncated series would've have been a mistake. Cutting the season short was the biggest mistake, but the writers and showrunners did what they could with it. Here's hoping the next season gets the episodes it needs.
My whole problem is that due to cutting the season short, everything felt rushed and there was no time for the characters, much less the audience, to be able to process or ruminate on the events so the aftermath is more or less nonexistent
2:10 it has to be Danny! she woke dragons from stone! the epilogue tells you what the pyre is made of and there's no stone, but there's sounds of stone cracking bc the egg were petrified
To me, the episode was perfect. Too bad I'll have to wait 2 years to see 9 and 10 lol 🤷♀ (it's basically been confirmed during their last podcast that 3x01 will be what should have been at the end of s2, had Warner Bros not fumbled everything)
I'm pretty sure that, if Season 3 shapes up to be great, people will come back to S2 and admire it for what it does. Something similar happened to Halo 2 when Halo 3 came out, and I'm sure it'll be something similar.
What was your favourite scene of this season? Tell me down below!
~ Tim
Aegon and Otto by far. Rhys Ifans and Tom Glynn Carney are a fantastic duo to pit against one another to show how great they are at acting, nothing comes close to the raw rage Otto exudes in this scene.
The King is my Grandson and my Grandson is In a FOOL
The ending montage and Otto roasting tf out of Aegon. The camera work with the ending montage for the season was just something else. That and the music. Ramin never misses.
The dragons claiming their riders. Seasmoke really pulled a "I just wanted to talk to you about your car's extended warranty" on Addam. Hugh and Vermithor cussed each other out. Silverwing and Ulf just kinda clicked. Silverwing is my new favorite she's so pretty.
There's two scenes that came to my mind as I read this question, one I fully expected and the other took me by surprise! The first is the scene in episode 7 in which Alicent leaves the castle and goes on her little spiritual journey. It genuinely moved me quite a lot, I actually just finished writing a whole rant about Alicent in another comment lmao. The other is the scene in episode 2 if my memory does not fail me in which Otto talks about Viserys and grieves him for a moment _and we are the poorer for it_ is a quote that stuck with me, same as Otto's emotion in that instant. This show definitely has a way of making you emotional at things said even characters you usually despise.
I honestly think the finale was suppose to be Episode 8 of a 10 episode season. Then episode 9 would be the big bombastic penultimate episode with the battle of the gullet and then the finale would have been the pieces in place for the war to continue.
Yep.
We really needed those two episodes
It was confirmed by Elio and Linda (Co-writers of The World of Ice and Fire history book and fact checkers for George himself) that a month before filming began, HBO notified Condal that the show would only be getting 8 episodes in S2 and while they were contemplating (i’m assuming) what to do, the writers and actors strike hit 3 months later, making any sort of rework impossible to do.
SAME
@@turtleguyfan Execs making things worse is anyone surprised 😂
So the Daemon vision:
This would've been *fine*, except it impacts how Daemon returns to Rhaenyra. He talks about how small they really are and that there are bigger things at play, which is great and all, but it makes the past several episodes of character introspection feel pretty undercut. Like the point of his reflection was to realize all of his mess-ups, the demons he has, what he wish he would've done: be there for his family. I think he should've returned to Rhaenyra not because of some vision of "the bigger story" but rather to be the man he wasn't for Viserys but now for Rhaenyra.
EXACTLY! All the episodes we just spent painfully watching him struggle with his demons, and all that character development that wasted SO MUCH SCREENTIME was literally just undone by him now finally losing the rest of his agency and becoming just another mouthpiece of this prophecy. It was literally all for nothing, and that pisses me off to no end. It's character assassination, pure and simple.
It would have been better if it had happened after. It is short of a reward for him to see what path his choice is leading toward.
a character can have two motivations lol we only have one scene with daemon and rhaenyra post harrenhall shit u think hes just going to admit to her that hes not fit for the throne in front of hundreds (ik they were speaking in valyrian but still) its like homelander he loves to be loved by people but hes a narcissistic demigod figure who wants to kill everyone, diff motivations dont undercut each other but still the 2 episodes being cut cud have made the execution a little better
@@kjellduteweert9262 I was actually thinking the same thing, it would've been cool if once Alicent saw Daemon affirm his allegience to Rhanerya, that that to her proved his aptitude/worthiness to learn about the ultimate fate of the targaryens and what not.
@@thefirminator No yeah, that makes sense, too! Daemon isn't completely flipped to being a good guy, you'd expect aspects of his original personality to be there (i.e. his pride and such). I just feel like it would've been a MUCH better climax/culmination of his arc if he had returned to Rhaenyra more-so out of a realization of his faults and less-so "well this is my part to play" kinda thing.
Like it didn't have to be with Rhaenyra specifically, I suppose. The climax of Daemon's introspection this season just didn't happened, it was abruptly superceded by prophecy. We'll more than likely get this climax in the next season, but it's annoying to have to wait two years to see that lol.
And you're totally right, this season needed two more episodes, we were left off at a very weird spot lmao.
You think you just fell out of a Weirwood Tree? You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you
I like this
OMG this is fantastic.
😂😂 I'm picturing Kamala with antlers and hooves now.
Jesus... 🤦☠️
Kamala 'Dirty Debbie Harry' Harris is also living her best Alys.
To me what is troublesome is that we are not seeing the reactions to the few events that are happening. What's Daemon reaction to the sowing? To Seasmoke having a new rider? Rhaenys death? Where is Hugh's wife? They focused so much on his family and now that he has a dragon where is she? Etc...
I thought that too. From what we've seen of Hugh I don't understand him feasting happily without a care or thought of his wife
Absolutely. When I talked about missed opportunities, a lot of those are reactive scenes.
~ Tim
@@fatalshore5068He didn't look like he was enjoying himself. He is probably worryed for her, but there is nothing he can do for her right now. At least He thinks that. He is pretty supmissive. He probably thinks he can't ask for a favour from his queen.
@@christopherm.1258 How is he submissive? He smacked some1 for that bag of veggies. He stood his ground and screamed in a dragons face. I think he is exactly the kind of man that would say to the Queen he ain't fighting her war for her unless his wife is taken care of.
@@fatalshore5068 he had to be pushed to the absolute limit to reach those moments though. He was appalled when he heard about merchants hoarding the food thinking he'd never do such a thing, patiently waited for Aegon to pay him as promised for half the season, complied with the City Watch closing the gates when he tried to get out of King's Landing, and only when his daughter was on the brink of death did he decide to punch that guy and take his food. Likewise with claiming the dragon: stood back initially, hid for some time, thought he saw an opening and tried to escape, and only when Vermithor was about to kill that girl did he draw the dragon's attention and scream to his face.
It's interesting to remember that Helaena's dragon Dreamfyre lived at Harrenhal for the last several years of her previous rider Rhaena's life.
I swear if we get another secret meeting between opposing sides like it’s nothing I’m going to lose my shit
@@brettthebest3978 Another implies singular when you know it’s going to be several. Aegon might pop back and forth in the city for all we know. 😂
It's really not that annoying. I mean larys just "sneaking" the king away is just as farfetched.
@@GJBedrinLarys sneaking him wasn't far fetched at all
@@Redplane70 idk he still is the king so I feel it's a bit of stretch that no one else in the whole castle seem to be talking to him or paying attention to him. He seems to be pretty darn lucid at this point so there are bound to be other people trying to get in his ear than just larys.
@@GJBedrin He doesn't rule tho, Aemond does
I personally really enjoyed Tyland finally having a storyline, as I love the contrast between him and the Lannisters of Game of Thrones, although I don’t think it was the right timing for the last episode.
Tyland had more of a story arc in one episode than Rhaena this entire season
@@gunnerjah rheana shouldnt even be on screen. while tyland was annoying to watch due to this being a finale, on a rewatch with all the seasons out, i bet it will be much more fun. I cannot say the same for miss running up that hill Rheana.
Yeah, it was nice to see a new setting too, but that had no place for a finale episode
It's because it wasn't meant to be the last episode, iirc budget cuts forced them to stick to an 8 episode format when it was meant to be 10
Except the story arc they give him is shit, they would have been better off not writing anything at all
For all the faults of this season, they did introduce us to the MVP, the legend, the GOAT, the best character, Ser Simon Strong. I thought he was just going to be a bit player, or only appear for one episode. How happy I am...to have been wrong.
HotD really hits it out of the park with their supporting actors.
I we’ll agree Simon Strong was the MVP of this season. Just about everything else was a snore fest boring waist of time. It’s was a 7 and 1/2 hour trailer for season 3.
@@10bunks12And it's still the best thing on at the moment. There's literally 16pages of book to work with this season, they done a good job. No matter what they did theres always moaning people especially these days.
I thought you were gonna say Blood Raven!!! Lol
@@10bunks12Counterpoint: Oscar Tully
shrinking to 8 episodes and then spending half the season watching daemon trip balls in harrenhal was a disastrous combo for me
Completely agree. Was a letdown
Daemons arc was my fave though
Add having to wait 2 years to see the rest.... HBO killed their own show. I swear after Viserys Targaryen died the show got so much worst.
I didn´t mind the Daemon arc. In fact I kind of liked it taking a "cool guy bully" out of his element but if you´re THIS short on time, if you are in fact so short on time you can´t even pay it off properly... then CUT it to half! I agree with that.
Fair.
~ Tim
The Criston Cole scene was my favorite of the season finale. Criston Cole disarmed Gwayne with his words.
He didn't do shit. Gwayne was like _jesus is this guy pathetic_ and not _damn ur onto something here_
Didn’t stick the landing for me. Season began much stronger than it ended. Frankly you can’t have a season filled with incredible dragon battles all building up to… a cliffhanger for a promise of future dragon battles.
I personally liked the cliffhanger but I just think the season should have ended after the fall of kings landing with rhaenyra on the throne. The cliffhanger would have had more weight if armies were marching to overthrow the throne that she had just gained. That's my take anyway.
Why not?
Had Hobbit 2 ended like this and been somewhat like this, PART 3 would have been much better.
I'd love to have had 2 episodes of battle - but it changes nothing because I'd just as much have the whole 4 seasons arrayed before me to watch.
@@jesseandersen4055I assumed that was where they were heading. If rhaenyra had even just been on the cusp of heading into King's landing I would have been happy but just left a bit disappointed.
Evidently you can
I think what people really don’t like is now we have to wait like 2 years for it to continue. If season 3 episode 1 was coming out next Sunday people would be hype
If this were episode 8 of a 10 episode season, we’d all be raving about it.
Idk about racing. More like we'd have the same reaction as episode 6 and 7.. like "ok ok itsgood but something better start happening soon cause we're running out of time here"
I've been commenting basically the same thing on most of the HotD recaps I've been watching, so we're on an unofficial team now!
But it wasn´t. I AGREE that if this was 8/10 and they nailed the e10 landing we would go "weak episode but who cares" a week later.
But this episode was MESSY no matter where in the season it sits. Sorry but the entire pirate randomness, the jaring out of character conversation between Rhaenyra and Alicent, the scenes for Daemon, Cole, Otto that were hastily thrown in wrap up... that´s not great either way.
As it is though, it was the last thing we see for this show for at minimum 2 years! And they didn´t even prewarn us about it. They just tossed it out and pretended it was all normal... hoping we wouldn´t notice? That´s just a massive unneeded own goal for HBO and the show runners. Sorry 🤷♂
@@DarkHarlequinWe basically ended season 1 with "Now it's on." and we end season 2 with "Now it's *really* on".
OP was that stupid kid we all knew in class who thought he was profound for repeating _"Wherever you go, there you are"_ after he heard it for the first time.
It's important to point out that Bloodraven was *not* in the game of thrones show. He does not have the missing eye, the birthmark, or the name. This is yet another moment of the show placing itself more inline with the book depiction of the main series than the show, which I'm all here for.
@@ElderVault It exactly what they have done elsewhere, which is adopt a sort of middle ground between GoT and the books. For a viewer it’s close enough to the previous show to seem consistent, which dropping more nods towards book readers.
I imagine they’ll similar with Dunk and Egg.
also dany has no hair in the vision
@@Somebody-pq1jqdoesn’t she have a big braid?
wtf r u talking about
Why do you think this?
While I appreciated what they were trying to do with the meetings between Alicent and Rhaenyra, they did not work for me at all. Apparently anyone can sail into and out of Kingslanding at will despite a double blockade from both sides that are supposed to be stopping and searching all ship traffic. I agree that they had their hands tied with how to pace the show and keep things vaguely in line with the events of the books, but several of their decisions were just baffling to me. I’d give the season a 6.5/10, though with the possibility of that going up if season 3 can pay off this set up in a satisfying way.
Daemon: I have to make sure Daenaerys is eventually born, so that she can burn Kings Landing to ash!!!! Fulfilling the prophesy and saving the world!!!! LMAO
I had a great time watching the finale! It wasn't a flashy episode, but it had so many awesome moments!
I love that Helaena went from speaking in riddles to straight up telling Aemond where he's gonna die lol
I feel the same.
She was still speaking cryptically though and also ... are you SURE Helaena was speaking?
Eh?
Eh?
I'm not so sure she's the only one cooped up in that head of hers...
I loved it too, felt like being back in the good seasons of Thrones, all schemes and character work!
The thing that got me about Helaena giving Aemond spoilers was how she switched midway from future to past tense (you’ll be dead, you were swallowed up), like even from sentence to sentence she’s not sure where in time she’s meant to be. She’s always been my favourite on Team Green, but this episode especially endeared her to me.
Elated to hear someone who truly enjoyed the episode as much as I did!
@@RainWelsh But they weren't GOOD or logical schemes! Especially the Alicent and Rhaenyra scenes! This was not like early GOT at all. The pacing and the dialogue the show chose to showcase was so bad when they ignored some of the more important convos characters should've been having.
Halaena is the Kwizatz Haderach.
@@acruelreadersthesis5868 lmaooo that's EXACTLY what crossed my mind when Tim said she saw across space and time
Lisan Al-Gaib!
AS FORETOLD
I think Helena’s might have been able to hijack it because it’s a blood tie - she’s probably sensitive to projections and I kinda figured Bloodraven might have just projected Daemon there like he did with Bran. I imagine the magic of the God’s Eye is stronger than tree beyond the wall. I hope we find out at some point!
But bloodraven hasnt been born yet?
@@oscar12tywe saw Bran mess with stuff before his time. Why wouldn't blood raven be able to do so too
In the book, Melisandre sees Bloodraven and Bran on the astral plane and says they can see her too. Despite using different kinds of magic, there is a "different ramps to the same highway" aspect to visions and psychic power. Helaena may simply have been dreaming at the same time as Daemon and stumbled upon him, the connection strengthened by bloodties, as you said
It felt like episode 8 of a 10 episode season
ooooh very excited for this video! I remember you asking in previous videos for the opinions of show only watchers due to being interested in how we find the show and its progressions not really knowing where it is all going, and having watched the finale I feel compelled to give my opinion/response to Alicent Hightower's character who is by far my favourite. I want to do this not because I think it will bring any new perspective to the table nor because I think anyone will read it, but simply because her character has moved me greatly and I need to talk about it somehow. I should also say, that not only have I not read fire and blood, I have also not watched Game of Thrones, so I had no previous attachment to this world and its dynamics.
Alicent is full to the brim with contradictions in a way that makes her very distinctly human, and the tragedy of her story really hit me in these last two episodes. From the beginning she has been used as a tool by those around her to achieve personal goals, forcing her into the cruelest of situations, all of which she's endured under her belief in duty and sacrifice, all very tied to her religious beliefs and never-ending grief. From the beginning, Alicent feels the need to be clean, to be outside herself, to be cleansed and new. She's never wanted anything else than escape, and we simple see her methods for it become more extreme as time goes on.As a child she picks and peels the skin off her fingers, desperately uncovering a new layer of herself whenever her own feels cornered. It's a tendency that borders on self destructive, and I don't think that's a coincidence. It is both a form of release from her pain, and a punishment for the guilt she feels for not fulfilling, or not wanting to fulfil what it is that she must in her eyes.
Then, we move onto baths, she seeks water to cleanse all the dirtiness that insists to grow on her like mold, she drowns herself in it hoping it will wash it all away. It doesn't. So, with her daily baths comes a violent scrubbing of her own body, when I watched this, I thought she seemed to be erasing rather than cleaning herself as she scrubbed the sponge over and over the same spot in her body, one that when red and in pain won’t show like the scars on her fingers. Alicent is perpetually trying to escape her own body, her own reality, _nothing is clean here_ she says, and that includes her. The dirtiness of it all has become too much for her, the scheming, the politics, the bloodshed, the grief, her seat, her dresses, her body, her. So, she searches one last form of cleansing, and as she leaves and wanders into the forest, she suddenly realises how much _more_ there is beyond the red keep. There is a world out there, not everything is confined to those walls, to her duty, to her children. Everything she’s been clinging to means nothing in the grandness of all things, and this realisation is a grief beyond comprehension. Her life, and that of her children and everything she’s put them through, all that duty and sacrifice she gripped so tightly was for nothing. Not because there’s an inevitable war happening, there could be peace, and it would be meaningless regardless. Alicent knows this, and she also knows the grief is too large for her to survive, so she can either drown in that lake, or accept that what is done is done. She can’t change anything that has happened thus far, she cannot undo the pain she’s endured nor the one she’s inflicted on others. She must choose. So, she does, she chooses her daughter, the only soul she still sees to be gentle and loving, the one she can still save. She chooses to leave what she’s done behind and understand that while she might never forgive herself entirely, she must not let the grief that has dominated her her entire life stop her now, now that she might let at least help get one person out of this cycle: her daughter. And if she’s lucky, herself.
The only other person she knows she might yet be able to save is Rhaenyra, and with by doing so prevent further bloodshed. It all comes back to her in many ways, there’s a connection between the two that was never broken, and whether they like it or not they’ve been bound forever from the moment Rhaenyra was born the King’s daughter and Alicent the Hand’s. Alicent is going to make it out (this is her conviction at least) with Rhaenyra or without her, but she would much rather see the only person she felt loved by be with her. This is what she emphasises in her conversation with Rhaenyra in the finale, a friend who _loved me_ , not a friend _I loved_ . Everyone else has utilised her, Rhaenyra too, but not always. At some point, Rhaenyra loved Alicent, and that’s all that matters to her, because she is so desperate for that love that died with her mother. Alicent has come to terms with all her contradictions and hypocrisy, and perhaps with her childhood feelings for Rhaenyra as well, which were always bordering a romantic wonder. Which is why she stands in front of Rhaenyra _clean_ , to try to salvage whatever remains of the friend, of the love she had. If she can, perhaps everything else will be restored as well. But there’s no going back now. That’s the tragedy really, not of Alicent Hightower or Rhaenyra Targaryen, but of the show as a whole. There’s no going back and history will forget all about the woman who found the strength withing herself to try and free herself from what everyone else clung to with the sharp nails which she bit off long ago. Or rather they’ll paint her a cruel woman, cold and power hungry just as Rhaenyra says, but isn’t that the same thing?
Anyways, I know a lot of people are dissatisfied with changed from the books or with Alicent's character in general, but I sincerely have loved her, and I think Olivia Cooke's performance is masterful. I just thought that perhaps someone may appreciate what someone got from her character having had no previous attachment to her or to Westeros. If someone actually read all this (I got more carried away than I thought, and I'm not quite sure I did what I set out to do because I lost myself halfway through) thank you and I hope you have a great day!
No, thank *you*! This was a very enjoyable essay, and if you had the desire to post it somewhere else (like on Quora, in a Song of Ice and Fire or HotD group) you might get better readership for it.
Wow! I love your analysis of Alicent's character and I think it's really on point especially with that last scene of her walking and the rising sun, as if marking a new beginning for her.
@@joywagner979 Oh my god thank you so much! I don't know if I'll post it anywhere else, I just wanted to get it off my chest but I really appreciate your answer and I might consider it!
First of all thank you so much! And secondly exactly! I don't know where season 3 will take her but this is clearly a new beginning for Alicent, and I don't know that she can ever go back to who she was (nothing and no one can ever go back once they do something in this show). She stripped herself away from her symbolic green clothing and went back to blue, the colour she wore as a child and as Rhaenyra's friend, and while she can't have that childhood back she is free to begin anew. The rising sun you mention, combined with her blue dress and goodbye to Rhaenyra all works together to symbolise this new beginning. I'm excited to see where it will go, though a little scared too, I may not have read the books but I know tragedy has only just begun.
Wonderfully in-depth character insights, thanks for taking the time to share your mind. Made me tear up a little out of empathy. A+
Rhaenyra wants to be easily accepted as ruler like Aegon and Aegon wants to be the realms delight, the good times guy and only part of the royal family, rhaenyras former role. They both could have gotten what they desire if it wasnt for gender and politics of older people.
I kinda feel sorry for Aemond and Aegon. Beeing groomed into beeing terrible people by their mother and grandfather and then beeing offered to die by said mother to end a war she made them start.
Gods, can we not used the word "groomed" fucking for everything?
It means sexual abuse.
You could have used the word raised.
@@anna2731groomed does not mean sexual abuse in every context. Grooming has mutiple uses like grooming your hair. Grooming your children can mean raising your children and grooming can also mean sexual abuse
@@anna2731 Grooming means to raise your child in a special way to make it fill a role thats decided beforehand.
It doesnt have to be sexual.
Alicent did not just raise her children, she was grooming them. We even got grooming scenes in Season 1.
@@anna2731grooming has never exclusively meant sexual grooming. I'm really sorry if this triggered something personal for you. I'm sure no one meant to do that
Also you could argue that Alicents way of raising children is also child abuse by modern standards :D
I don’t like how they made Daemon arrive at the conclusion he did, in fact I kind of hate it.
Overall, I’ve been loving the Harrenhal scenes - certainly more than most of the fanbase - and while I did enjoy the aesthetic of the final dream sequence… it just feels so out of character for Daemon. Daemon is a character who views himself as the decisive man of action, the definition of main character syndrome who thinks he and only he has the ability to change history and save his House. Now, this season has gone to great lengths to put him on an arc of change, to make him understand that he’s not the most important person in the world, that he actually has remorse for what he’s done and he’s capable of showing restraint rather than indulging his impulses to get what he wants. But at his core, he still should have that “I write my own fate” aspect to his character, which is what leads into throwing away the idea of being King in his own name. He doesn’t want the power but he wants to help Rhaenyra get there. Overall, I love that idea.
…But making it so the final reason that pushes him over the edge is prophecy? It just feels wrong. Daemon can embrace the magical aspects of Targaryen history and his world, but he should never lose sight of his desire to write his own story. Giving up on that and simply accepting that he’s a pawn of destiny doesn’t just feel contradictory to his character, it feels extremely cheap and weak. Rather than explaining why he truly believes in Rhaenyra now, he simply pivots to “Well the magic tree says she has to, and that’s good enough for me!” They could have done SO much more with him that gave him a magically related arc while still making his decisions his own. What’s more, it feels contradictory to George’s themes. In spite of the obvious shenanigans of Bloodraven/TTB, every character consciously wants to choose their own fate, that’s very important for them because it’s very important to George that you dispel the idea of myth and destiny and prophecy guiding character actions more than anything else, because that is ultimately what drives people. So making Daemon, of all people, the one who submits to the role that destiny had laid out for him feels so out of place for George’s work despite embracing the outward aesthetic of spooky dream magic.
I’m very much not a fan of where this turned, when I was so enjoying the majority of Harrenhal scenes before this.
I agree with you. It felt kinda weird when I was watching it, and you put my feeling into words, which is something I'm not great at. I've felt kinda weird about the prophecy aspect of the show for a while now, especially this season. I think the fanbase recognizes it as usual Targ shit believing their own hype and thinking they're the main characters cause they have dragons, and the Dance would be a lesson on hubris and its consequences. I still feel like they'll go that route, but it feels weird cause they've kinda been playing the prophecy straight. Rhaenyra is the obvious choice for a good ruler. She's just (most of the time), kind (most of the time), and feels that the throne isn't just her right, it's a duty to be held. She seems to be heading into the direction of being more ruthless, which will be interesting to see, but a common criticism I've seen is that HOTD changes the Dance from a conflict between terrible people for petty reasons into a black/white good vs evil story. While I don't 100% agree with that, I understand where that criticism comes from.
1000% agree with this. It feels like the director had a vision sequence to work in, which isn’t a bad idea to close out a vision sequence arc, but then took away all of the Daemon’s agency in favor of some flashy fan service for imagined Game of Thrones fans instead of actual Daemon fans
Genuinely it seems like Matt Smith isn't totally on board with it either
I completely see where you're coming from! I feel like my thoughts on it will become more grounded as the show progresses. He will need another story arch for season 3 so it will be interesting to see where they take it!
The same effect could be done just after s02e07 when he realized that governing is not for him. If he needed to have a prophecy in his arc, Wide Walkers should have been sufficient (as then he would understand Viserys and his prophecies)... But anything on top is just lame.
I enjoyed the finale. The scene where the camera pans to the marching armies, accompanied by the theme music for each house, was awesome!
Another aspect that was affected by the strikes during the shows production is that the writers weren't allowed to edit the scripts DURING the production, something thats very important in making shows. Instead, they were forced to stick to the original script and not diverge whatsoever. Its why they added the kiss between rhaenyra and mysaria. It was one of the few changes they were allowed to do
It was good to see someone not just bashing the episode and then using that to bash the entire show. The show has been overall great, and it sucks how HBO made them cut down what was clearly meant to be a 10 episode season and then not give them the time to do it because of the writers' strike. Clearly it could have been handled better, but I do think the showrunners are going to give us payoff. They aren't Steven Moffat, and I think next season will hopefully put the show back where it needs to be.
HOTD isn’t as good as Thrones at its peak, but it’s nowhere near as bad as the last few seasons. I’d say it’s between season 4 and 5 in terms of writing quality, so if the show at the very least stays at the level I’ll be fine with it.
Absolutely we are gonna get the payoff! I would worry about that..
@@uniguy2126i mean saying its not as good as GoT at its peak is a given. GoT seasons 2-4 are probably the 3 greatest continuous seasons of drama televisions ever produced and if not the best then certainly top 3. Being as good as GoT at its peak was never gonna happen
I hate how important visions/prophecies have become in the show. It would have been a much better character arc for Daemon if the visions made him slowly realize that he would not be a good ruler, but Rhaenyra would. Now, he only bends the knee for Rhaenyra because he saw a vision of the White Walker threat (something the Targaryens did not even stop, Arya did). It takes away from free will
I didn’t like the cliffhanger, but I can’t blame the writers for it considering the budget cuts. What I will blame them for is the atrocious dialogue between Alicent and Rheanyra. They spent the whole season exploring how she regrets the way she raised her children, and that she feels helpless now that they’re in positions of power. So now she’s just sacrificing them? Am I supposed to believe that one conversation with her former best friend is supposed to not only undo all the hate and vitriol between eachother, but also convince Alicent to sacrifice her children? This feels especially contrived when you consider how guilty she feels about indirectly sending Aegon to what was almost his death. I think it would’ve been much better if Alicent backed out of her peace offer after hearing the conditions.
Why not? One compliment in S1 made Alicent undo 20 years of hatred and rightful fear that Rhaenyra's ascension could put her kid's life in danger.
@@unc54Her fear was never rightful. It was something Otto putted into her mind. She knew Rhaenyra wouldn't do something like that, but Otto said she would be stupid to ignore the posibility. Also they never purely hated each other. In the 20 years they tryed to make peace with each other, but failed time and time again. They were even friends already in episode 4 of season 1.
It's clearly not that scene that makes Alicent change her mind. Come on man. At least put some thought into your criticism.
This whole season has been Alicent getting a big old lesson of "reaping what you sow". She thought claiming the throne would be good for her and her family. Only to lose a grandchild, see her kids hurt and attack each other, not to mention being sidelined by her own sons. Alicent was clearly on the "Find out" part of her "fuck around" arc.
The conversation with Rhaenyra is just the tail end of her descent into regret.
She finally saw what her power grab will lead to and what it already cost. Seeking a way to stop the war and save as much as she can of her family is understandable, despite of what Rhaenyra throws at her face being completely true.
@@LightningRaven42Thank you. Some criticisms about Alicent and Rhaenyra completely miss the point the whole season has been building up to this moment. Alicent found out that playing with fire will burn you.
@@christopherm.1258 And S1E4 ended with Rhaenyra lies getting Otto sent away and then S1E5 Alicent finds out Rhaenyra slept with a Kingsguard. S1E6 starts off with 10 years of Alicent making life terrible for Rhaenyra. S1E7 we see Viserys look the other way when Aemond gets his eye sliced out because he wants to protect Rhaenyra's lies. S1E10 Aemond kills Luke and S2E1 Daemon orders a hit on Alicent's grandson.
The idea that this relationship is not only intact but especially for Alicent has taken preference over her family is mind-bogglingly dumb.
I really do enjoy these, but I think I’d be personally willing to buy however many books would help Tim buy a camera that keeps him in focus 😁
Shhhhhhhhh 😅
My wife saw my comment and shamed me endlessly for being mean about the camera focus, and since I missed my window to erase it and pretend I never sent it, there’s nothing else for it but to apologize. Sorry, Tim! 😇 appreciate the hard work you do!
@@chrisbworth my camera is a bit average, and unfortunately, im still very much learning the technical side of things 😅
Harrenhal was Chekhov's Gun that never ended up being taken off the wall & fired
Not boring or slow. Good show about political machinations, character development, and magic. Prestige television has always been lots of talky talky. And that’s good. I like it. 🎉
I can understand why people didn't enjoy this season.
I'm someone who enjoyed it a lot. I already know how this story ends. So I want to take my time getting there, maybe even learning more about the characters involved.
Harrenhal has always been fascinating to me. As much as I'm not a fan of Daemon brooding around... I loved learning more about this gargantuan Castel that plays a role in so many events throughout the series.
Exactly how I feel
What a voice of reason. you've provided for Season 2 and the finale. I mostly agree. Plus, consider what is written, historically, in a book is never what actually took place in real time. I keep that mentality when watching an adaptation of a book. It doesn't have to be an exact copy, word for word. Just like every detail of a great battle is hardly ever provided from ancient history. We often just get one side, which will be slanted to favor the victors. The details, we must fill in ourselves. Those writers on House of the Dragon have taken the task to provide details from a book that is, as you said, just major points, without this much detail. It's a huge task and I just enjoy the ride from the back of a dragon and let it take me where it will.
My take on Episode 8 is that it's a very good episode, but the season as a whole suffers from the lack of two more episodes. Every indication is that HBO basically did a rugpull and told the showrunners to cut two episodes at the last minute, and that (in part due to the writer's strike) they weren't able to rewrite the season to be 8 episodes. I think the season was still pretty good! It's very upsetting that it abruptly ended! I hope they manage to handle the pacing of S3 okay despite that!
How can people say there’s no comedy in this show when we have the Rhaena scenes? 😂
I burst out laughing every time they cut back to a Targaryen princess - effectively if not De Jure - being allowed to wander the wilderness and not once did she meet an Arryn guard, a shepherd or a Vale tribesman.
All they had to do was show a scene where one of the guards goes to her tent and it’s empty, him panicking because he can’t find her, then cut to her in the wilderness.
That at least would be somewhat excusable but still not by much because she’s putting everyone in the Vale at risk with her stupidity because if she dies, Rhaenyra is within her rights to nuke the Eyrie for not protecting her. This was just such a dumb, reckless, needless action because they could have just given us Nettles and that would be fine.
How is this subplot not the purest comedy gold you’ve ever seen in your life? 🤣
That makes absolutely no sense. There are plenty of historic royals who went off into the countryside on their own. Outside of the mountains, the Vale is peaceful, not highly populated, and not particularly dangerous. And the idea that Rhaenrya would “nuke the Eyrie” for not telling an adult princess what to do is hilarious - she has been sent there to protect the Eyrie, not the other way around.
@@ZveeboIn their own countryside during peacetime, maybe. When there’s a civil war going on and Rhaena is somewhere she’s never been before? No, they absolutely did not allow that in medieval history. 😂
That is completely irrelevant, she should not be allowed to wander around regardless of how safe it’s supposed to be. And it’s clearly not that deserted. Where Sheepstealer can find sheep, he should be finding farms or shepherds, it’s kinda implausible that he’d find one but not the other.
No, she’s been sent there to help protect Aegon and Viserys but she is very much in the camp of people who should be protected. How does she protect the Vale? What’s she gonna do at the Greens, stare at them? 🤣
I didn't quite follow what her story is. There's a dragon outside Castle Arryn, we see her leaving with Lady Arryn glaring at her, then she wanders around chasing dragon activity and looking panicky. I thought she'd been kicked out
@@Longshanks1690 It is her own countryside. The Vale is loyal to Rhanerya and there are no battles going on anywhere nearby. It’s about as safe a place as you get in Westeros.
You’re just making up bizarre rules that don’t exist and have never existed so you can get red faced and furious about something.
@@Zveebo Come ON. You are not seriously arguing that is “her” countryside when she’s never been there before? Brfr 💀
As opposed to you who makes wild assumptions so as to justify not bursting out laughing at what is self-evidently a hilarious collection of scenes? 🙄
Maybe they shouldn't have made a whole season on 16 pages of a book... I think the reason why the first seasons of GoT were so intersting and complex was that they had 1 entire book within those seasons. Obviously the writing style isn't the same, but in the end of the day, in HOTD they had to create 80% of the scenes from scratch and they aren't GRRM (which is the person whose writing people fell in love with).
For me, I just don't enjoy Setup Seasons. Because we can only set things up, pay almost nothing off and head into the next season with debt. We ended season one saying, "War is coming". Then we ended season two saying, "War is coming". It just feels like we never took a step forward. Just stood in place and circled each other. All in all, I end this season where I ended Season One; Interested, but not really excited about the next season. I'll watch out of FOMO, but nothing else.
Thank you for all these episode recap/analysis you've been doing!
I thoroughly enjoyed the show (with some criticism here and there) but having your viewpoint on it and the little maps showing what is happening where (plus some book details without ever going into spoilers) really helped me enjoy it even more!
Won't be there for RoP, but see you for the future asoiaf stories!
I personally loved the Tyland stuff. I wish we would have gotten it earlier in the season, to shake things up. It was so refreshingly different from everything else!
... It was horrible. worst part of the episode
I agree! It would’ve been nice earlier on but such a fun part of the episode. It reminded me a bit of Jon snow and the wildlings arc in got
Dear anyone saying this show should've ended on a big battle: remember when GOT had only one big scene like this a season and didn’t rely on pure spectacle to be good, but rather a compelling story with the occasional hype moment? Yeah that's what MADE game of thrones GAME OF THRONES. It had one big moment and that was ALWAYS in episode 9.
NEVER the finale. Hell in season 5, the big moment was in episode 8.
But whatever you say about the writing, at least we can all agree that the technical aspects, the cinematography, and score are outstanding. Some of the shots in this finale alone were masterpieces. The one of Rhaenyra silhouetted against the scrolls is beautiful storytelling at its finest. The way the camera moved when the Winter Wolves got to twins was just....AHH it just scratches my brain real good.
I think sometimes people mistake "characters making dumb decisions" for "dumb writing."
It can be due to bad writing (see: most of the happenings in latter seasons of Game of Thrones), but not always. Real people often make stupid and irrational decisions, so good writing will necessarily reflect characters making stupid or irrational decisions.
If any of that makes sense!
@@joywagner979The difference is we didn’t get a climatic moment in episode 7. Yes, there were the Dragon riders, but that was more of an escalation than a climax. It was certainly nothing like the Battle of Black Water in season 2. Imagine if season 2 of Game of Thrones ended right before the battle.
Except we didn’t have a big battle in episode seven either so your point is mute.
@@Cheese23145 It's "moot" and that wasn't their point
I think the problem is that the climax was around the first half with Rhaenys death instead of the second half. So people can't appreciate the current season due to the pacing.
I didn't dislike the episode, but it was my least favorite ep of S2. The tone was a little bit weird oscilating between Tyland as a comic relief and the profecy and other more serious stuff. Alicent visiting Rhaenyra felt repetitive. The ep is devoted to closing subplots but then Rhaena doesn't get to ride her dragon (or die trying) after all the screentime dedicated to her. I also dislike when precuels lean soooo much on their predecessor (it reminded me of ROP a little 😂): it draws me out of the story only to remind me that GOT S8 was terrible and that we'll probably never get the remaining books of ASOIAF 😣😅
Also... Gweyne Hightower confronting Criston Cole and dragging his sister's name through the mud in front of his men... wtf!?
Alicent visting Rhaenyra was key imo, because its the reversal of what Rhaenyra's been trying all season. Peace, peace, peace. But now Alicent goes to beg for peace after month's of carnage because she's realized what she's done - the crowning, Aegon, Aemond, the riots - and now Rhaenyra and her new dragonriders, its over for the Green's.
Episode 2 was great most other things were just okay.
Why the fuck did they make Halaena able to tap into the weirwood net. Also where tf is the glass candle? That's the only way anyone can shape the dreams of another unless you are hooked up to the tree.
GRRM magic has limits you can't just do shit. Because why doesn't she Halaena in turn show more people this vision.
Rook's rest was not just okay it was incredible
Just because most people use glass candles to alter dreams doesn't mean it's the only way. George has said his magic is not hard-coded, things can happen that are abnormal or unexplainable. It's really not a system to criticize for bending to cool moments.
Welcome to Edinburgh, Tim! ☺️ Your most scenic backdrop yet for these videos 👌
The funny thing about Alicent agreeing to let Aegon (and Aemond, as prince-regent) die, is that she warned them about this in season one and thought it was a threat that they needed to act to prevent. The truly hilarious thing, though, is that it only became necessary because they acted and crowned Aegon king. If the greens hadn't rebelled, then Aegon and Aemond wouldn't need to die.
I quite like this season as a whole and I wholeheartedly agree with the criticisms.
I don't know which kind of constraints they were working under, but some scenes could've been better rearranged and some storylines should've been compressed in favor of giving us more scenes better some characters like Corlys and Rhaenyra.
I did not see this as Helaena and Alys being connected in any way beyond both having a connection to the prophecy network basically. Maybe they've seen each other while both on the line, but Helaena pretty clearly has a constant connection while Alys can log off.
3:00 I think it shows that dragon dreams and wirwood visions are the same magic, just accessed differently.
Did you notice that Helaena didn't use the future when talking to Aemond about his fate? It was something like "You were swallowed up in the God's Eye and never seen again".
Its frustrating to me how their not letting the Blacks do wanton violence, or at least be acknowledged for it. Rhaenyra is clearly forcing the dragonseeds to die for her war, she sends the boats of food as a manipulation tactic only after Mysaria encourages her, but the show treats it as if she actually cares about the smallfolk and not killing people.
And this is such a weird place to end a season. Feels like there should be another episode or this episode should have been the first episode of season 3. But I am excited for season 3.
I think that the show leaves that hypocrisy or double face of the Blacks there on purpose. It's not that the show doesn't acknowledge the violence against the small folk, but more like the characters don't want to acknowledge it, Rhaenyra doesn't want to. She spends the whole season trying to justify herself (and the noble class) for their right to enact this violence be it bc of their noble bloodline, the gods and prophecies, the dragons, etc. She's always trying to appear more moral, just, and less power hungry than the Greens bc she "didn't want the crown". She thinks of the small folk and talks about her worries but it's just words, no real action to change things. She's only willing to change the status quo if it benefits her (like with the "army of bastards") and she ends up using these people. On Mysaria's character I say that we all want to follow a leader and we often convince ourselves that they are the right person to change things and do good when most often than not, they are same as those who came before them.
Yeah I think the show runners were prepping her to do some heinous war crimes but didn't have the Greenlight for extra episodes
10:42
I think the visions and the constant reflection through the season on what it means to have the crown is why he bends the knee to her; the visions just solidified his feelings. he didn’t seem fond of the idea of betraying her when Alfred Broom tried to persuade him.
We really needed an episode 9 & 10.
Thank you SO MUCH on giving us the overview of the conflict, with the map and all. It really gave me the clarity I needed to truly appreciate the stakes and conflict(s) of the show. It's a true shame they didn't manage to give us that in the show.
Also, I'm curious, as your specialty seems to be on fantasy and science fiction writing, if you would, and how would you dissect the writing of a show like The Wire, truly anchored in real "present" (well, a decade or two ago anyway) time.
I have a couple issues with the season as a whole that the finale has made me contemplate more.
The first is that these just feel like different characters from the first season. The second half of the season was largely focused on the Blacks and the Greens anticipating a succession crisis and bracing for impact. I liked that we saw a bit of a play for peace at the end, but Lucerys' death should have been the final nail in the coffin. We saw these factions schism further and further apart for decades, only for the bulk of the season to be taken up by characters trying to find a peaceful resolution (after children have been killed on both sides, I might add!) Alicent tried to cut out a child's eye to avenge Aemond in season 1 and now she serves Aegon up to Rhaenyra on a silver platter? She urged him to seize the throne because if Rhaenyra took it, she would kill him, and now she helps Rhaenyra do exactly that? None of the deaths have much narrative consequence beyond writing characters out of the show. The deaths of Lucerys, Jahaerys, even Rhaenys, do not seem to be felt by any of the surviving characters just two episodes after they happened.
For more nitpicky complaints, by my estimation, a week or two has passed between the first and second season, which lead to some sillier anachronisms like Jace's hair growing out, but Alicent getting lonely in Viserys' absence and turning to Cole feels like a quick turnaround unless their relationship began when Viserys was still alive, in which case, why weren't we shown that?
Also, a princess runs off into the hills of the Vale and nobody notices or cares.
I have pacing and thematic issues that tie into events and characterization from the book, so book spoilers below.
You covered this somewhat in the video, but I think the book has plenty of things to keep things interesting, many of which were cut from the show. Jace's relationship with Cregan Stark (one of the characters I was most excited to see!) lasts just a few minutes, Daeron is offscreen, Baela and Rhaena have so little development, and Nettles is cut entirely (another one of my favorite characters). There are so many interesting characters from the book that could have seen more development, but instead we got more Daemon visions (I liked that Harrenhal is spookier and Alys was great, we just didn't need it to last a whole season), repetitive Black council meetings, and endless handwringing over whether or not they were actually going to war. The issue isn't that the plot didn't have enough going on, it's that the show decided to condense the cast and stretch out their stories instead of giving the side characters more weight.
My last, and perhaps largest, issue is that the characters are too sanitized from their book counterparts. As you said, George R. R. Martin's books focus on the actions of stupid, power hungry people. The Dance happens because both sides are forced into a desperate situation by a dysfunctional system and a weak king. They become violent and power hungry and it leads to the downfall of their house at the expense of the realm. Now, I like that many of the characters are more sympathetic, but it's so important that these are not good people. They commit horrible atrocities in pursuit of the throne. The change to make it ambiguous whether Daemon actually told Blood and Cheese to kill Jahaerys removes one of the Blacks' worst crimes, and overall the show frames them as the "good guys" as opposed to a rival faction that is almost as morally bankrupt as the Greens. I think the changes to Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship was really, really well done in season 1 and the change to make them close in the beginning only to split apart makes things all the more tragic. But that's what it should have been-- a tragic "what might have been." I'm reminded of the Maester Aemond quote "love is the death of duty... but sometimes duty is the death of love." The Dance of the Dragons pits families, friends, and lovers, against each other. The show's insistence to have Rhaenyra and Alicent continue to try to work things out undercuts what could have been an incredible tragedy, where all bridges were burnt in season 1. The show keeps the plot beats roughly the same as the books, but has changed the characterization to undercut many of the book's thematic elements relating to corruption and power as these characters descend into the war.
I think that the first season of hotd was one of the best seasons of television ever, and by comparison this season was disappointing for most people. Imo, this show has some of the best acting I've ever seen, top to bottom and that is still on display in season 2. As others have said, this season felt a little incomplete, like they cut some episodes or story beats somewhere, but I would still consider this excellent television. If you consider season 1 a 9.5/10 or a 10/10, then I would consider season 2 to be a 7/10. I think that it is especially good compared to the rest of the television landscape in 2024. I would absolutely consider it the best show this year.
Anyone else remember in S1E9 when Alicent put herself between Meleys and Aegon? No? Good cause Alicent doesn't either.
-There is definitely character evolution if you know to analyze them. Daemon being at Harrenhall definitely evolved his arc and was necessary for his character. As for Rhaena's plot, wtf is she doing?
-I hate useless shock value things like Meleys bursting through the floor, Vhagar using stealth and teleportation to kill Meleys. Triarchy fight scene seems added later in the plot development and also useless. Mysaria and Larys don't use ''little birds", how do they spy? In the original GoT this is shown while having dialogue between characters and pushing the plot forward. Melinda Massey is wearing a red cloak just for the trailer to make us think there will be a red priestess in the show.
-Cinematography is great, but I miss the vibrant colors of the original first 4 Got seasons. Please more natural vibrant colors while outdoor.
-The GoT has so many scenes were multiple things happen: Tywin scolding his children, planning future war moves, great dialogue while writing the letter to the Freys. HoT should have more of this.
bro I love your episode reviews, I love your joy about it!!! thanks for not dwelling on negative views, I am 100% sure that must be a conscious decision on your part. I am doing the same in my own enjoyment of the show. This season was phenomenal, and I admire the actors so much. The cast interviews are real fun, and I am so excited about where things will go in season 3. thanks for your hard work with these videos and the fun little memes! I hope you see all the castles you want to see in Europe!
Rumor is George R.R. Martin wasn't involved in the writing this season, and it shows. 😬
Amidst all the mixed opinions of Season 2, I have to say I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your weekly review episodes. They’ve actually been one of my favorite parts about the show! It’s nice to see you be more forgiving and not overly critical. Also really like that you film outdoors, it’s refreshing and is a nice touch. Can’t wait to see you in 2026 for Season 3!!
Glad to hear somebody with a legitimately good opinion. I literally had to leave all the ASOIAF subreddits because they were full of nothing but people complaining.
I've had people insulting me for not repeating their own opinions on what the story should be. This community is rancid at times. Glad to see some content creators with more nuance than the average viewer.
I think that the Targaryen dreamers are the same as greenseers like jojen reed and bran stark, but because there are so few greenseers the lack of knowledge of the other ones means that they have different names for them. I think the two being the same thing helps to explain why the Targaryen dreamers know of the white walkers and the night king.
I think the clearest link between the two is brynden rivers, aka bloodraven, the three eyed crow. He was born a bastard son of aegon v and of course ends up being the three eyed crow, which creates a clear link between the Targaryen bloodline and the greenseers. Furthermore, the visions bran experienced whilst his powers were untrained were incredibly disjointed and rapid, similar to the one seen by daemon. To me, it makes more sense for dreamers and greenseers to be one and the same, just referred to by different names due to the different cultures that the houses originated from, especially considering how similar they are.
Unlikely. Firstly, Jojen isn't a greenseers; he has green dreams but a greenseers he is not. He explicitly denies it. At least in the books he does. But he is equivalent to Targaryen dreamers. Actual greenseers on the other hand are far more powerful than Targaryen dreamers.
I like they take it slow. My favorite scenes is where they show how mighty the dragons are, without them needing to fight. Vhagar hiding in the woods, the dragonseeds and the dragons interaction, (Straight out of Jurassic park), seeing the dragons play and make an impact on the world.
Problem I have with thess visions is that these are literal and in your face.
They aren't abstract and, therefore, makes for characters that want to either prevent it or make sure it happens.
They will now try to prevent it, or will look stupid not to.
George writes prophecy in a manner that is abstract and vague, because it influences character's choices towards their own demise. It is stuff like Cersei believing that Tyrion will kill her, but that it ends up being Jaime or any other younger brother instead.
Or that Jon Snow is most likely Azor Ahai, because he was born beneath a bleeding star, but that star was the sword Dawn that Ned took with him into the tower.
HOTD often tries to mimick George's style, but they never really seem to know the logic and consequences that are involved with it.
Stuff like that dragons aren't nomadic and that they stay in one place.
MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE FUTURE SEASON 4 OF THE SHOW:
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED:
These images of dead dragons were literal. We literally saw the aftermath of Tumbleton.
We literally saw Bloodraven.
We hear Helaena tell Aemond about his literal demise.
So now it will never make sense why Aemond chooses to confront Daemon above the God's Eye. Hell, it doesn't even make sense for Aemond to move to Harrenhal.
I feel like i’m the only one that enjoyed this episode somehow
I think how the episode managed to culminate multiple plot points made it whole for me rather than seeing this epic conclusion to set up next season. Most of this season was relegated to character work (hence why Daemon was on his drug escapade) and i liked it much more than the trickling sweeps that S1 had. My only issues stems from how much GoT impacts how our characters motivations and the constant acknowledgement of ASOIAF. Even in S1 i felt it was too much and tbh if this episode was THE only time we get to watch a throughline connection with HoTD and GoT then i wouldn’t be as upset but even then the ending to GoT still leaves a bad taste in my mouth so i’d rather it just not be referenced at all
I also felt some scenes had more screen time than they should (like Tyland, Alicent/Raenyhra) and it’s clear the episode was meant as a setting a stage for a larger stage than what’s been set before even if 99% of this season was meant for this war to go down.
Regardless, i enjoyed how everything wrapped up for this season and compared to most other series out atm this show at its worst is 1000x better than most so even if it didn’t stick the landing completely it still has much more going for it than say ur Acolytes or Rings of Power, yk?
Excellent analysis!
This season had some of my all time top GoT moments. But also really needed a couple more writing passes to tighten up some character arcs and show rather than tell in other places. Subtext was a bit too surface level in some scenes.
It really felt like this season suffered from getting cut back to 8 eps after having written a 10 ep season without the ability to rewrite due to the strike.
An interesting theory on Halaena is that Bloodraven went into the past and altered her mind in a similar way that Bran messed up Hodor, but in a less disastrous fashion. That would explain how she's able to see things, because she is constantly going back and forth from the past/future and the present. She essentially becomes a vessel for Bloodraven to share knowledge and insight through space and time.
I think the image of the dead dragons near a fortress is meant to evoke the storming of the Dragonpit (in a similar way Dany sees a vision of dead men feasting at a banquet overseen by a sorrowful wolfman alluding to Red Wedding in book 2) but also I think is generally symbolic of the destruction wrought by the Dance as a whole as they all vy for the Red Keep and Iron Throne.
Otto could have been with the army marching from Oldtown instead hanging out in a cell somewhere. But I suppose we will get Daeron as a perspective there next season, and we need Otto in King's Landing when it falls to Rhaenyra if they're sticking to what happens in F&B.
Edit: I actually think we should have had Otto treating with the Triarchy, as it was his plan in the book, and we could've had some more Otto goodness throughout this season.
I interpreted it cutting to Halaena after Daemon's vision as "she sees everything that he's seeing right now but ALL THE TIME". She already knows everything that Daemon did. Or, alternatively, she was pulled into Daemon's vision because of their blood relation since she's sensitive to those visions anyways.
I think Helaena is also tied to the old god via her Hightower lineage, and that the weirwoods were orchestrating the vision, Alys, and Helaena. The trees gave daemon information about the song of ice and fire that originally came from dragon dreams. A whole different kind of magic. Helaena seems like the link.
This is the best synopsis of episode 208 I’ve seen. Knowing that season 1&2 is less than 20 pages & that the plot line has several paths to go helps quell any annoyance that I felt. Thank you!
It’s hard for me to get into the Alicent and Rhaenyra scenes because it seems absurd to me that they’re sneaking into enemy territory all the time. I really loved the triarchy scenes though.
Glad to see a fellow Ser Simon fan.
Five seasons is way too many imo!
I like to imagine that when Helaena told Daemon "you know what you must do", she was talking about something that he has to do with Aemond at the God's Eye
Yeah she seems to have forgotten about jaehaerys
I ended up reading Fire and Blood after season 2 ended, and I liked it a lot more than I thought I would since I had heard it was written more like a history book. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the first two seasons overall in a video that includes spoilers.
@TwotheFuture a really interesting take on the mechanics of visions and time travel in ASOIAF is preston jacobs’ theory on bran.
I reckon Otto was imprisoned by House Beesbury. House Beesbury's revolt was mentioned a couple of times this season, and I reckon they captured him en route to Oldtown after his dismissal.
I’m getting really sick of the darker, more vicious aspects of the Dance being brushed aside so Sara Hess can double down on her Rhaenyra/Alicent angst.
Like…
It’s over, there is no chance they can ever go back to the way things were.
Alicent’s grandchild was butchered, as was Rhaenyra’s own son.
Why is that not more of an issue?
Alicent spent years abusing Rhaenyra, and poisoning her own children against Rhaenyra’s.
And all her self-defeating schemes, her resentment, her bitterness, it played a part in the events which led to little Lucerys’s violent death.
Rhaenyra should be *furious* with her.
Friendship be damned.
Alicent’s characterization is a mess at this point, and Rhaenyra even entertaining the notion of working things out with her is absurd.
The Dance is a dynastic collapse, a civil war between members of the same family.
Not a sappy, tragic tale of two sad girls pitted against one another.
there were definitely pacing issues but honestly I'm putting most of the blame on the execs and the writers' strike (not that the strike was a bad thing ofc). The finale was very anticlimactic but that makes sense if they had 2 eps cut out last minute. and I think a lot of things should have been given more or less screen time throughout the season, but if they didn't have the editing time they'd planned for that also makes sense.
Also I'm so glad you mentioned the Green Man bc I haven't seen anybody else talking about it and I was starting to wonder if I'd hallucinated that
This was a mixed season. I think I liked it more than most, because I enjoy people arguing in rooms.
Episode 1 to 4 and 6 and 7 were good.
But episode 5 was boring and the finale left a sour taste in my mouth.
I think what your point about Martin's writing being more focused on character ignores is that those battle scenes often served to further develop a character. It's rarely about the battle itself but about how a character's arc comes to a dramatic crossroads where they will have to make decisions that will irrevocably change their trajectory. That's what's missing in this season of HotD to me.
My dad and I have never read the books but we still enjoy the show very much! My dad has a theory that Daemon is the one going to end up being the Winter King from GOT
*”…you will be swallowed by the EYE of the god, never to be seen again.”*
That would have been a more interesting & slightly ambiguous reading of Daemon’s future by Haelena. 😁
The visions of Bloodraven, with an actor and everything, could be a way to set up the players of HBO's "A Knight Of The Sevem Kingdoms" TV show
I loved this season. As a book reader seeing some of the magic and fantasy elements being used was really cool. I feel we are super ready for next season. I kinda liked the slower pace and spending time with the characters but I can understand people wanted a little more pay off. HBO really should have not dropped the last 2 episodes especially in the manner they did. I give my props the the show runners for keeping the show in the rails
Your reviews of HotD have been by far the best I have seen! Very well done! They are balanced and fair! You don't go into mindless fan boying but also don't outright criticised stuff because "it's not in the book" or "they are pushing their woke agenda", which I have seen way too often.
As someone who has played a very small part in the making of this show, I can attest to the absolute passion of the people involved in it (at every level). I do believe that the strike really impacted the season with the last 2 episodes being pushed back, but hey, it's not like they have been cut. We are still getting them. I know patience is not a modern virtue.
I don't think Helaena is actually in the vision. The vision comes from the weirwood, and maybe those trees have something to do with Helaena's visions, but Helaena herself seems to be a passenger in the vehicle of her visions rather than the driver of them.
The weirwoods "know" Helaena has these gifts and conjure a vision of her in Daemon's mind the way they conjure visions of other people from Daemon's life.
Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laena, Daemon's mom, and everyone else he has hallucinated is not actually there or controlling his visions either.
So true, they never talk about Leanor going away and everyone thinking he's dead.
Season 2 leaves me with the exact same „oh damn, it‘s gonna go down“ feeling that season 1 did
I know it‘s technically not so but it just feels like nothing happened to me
where season 1 had time jumps every 2 episodes to fit all the history they cramed into one season and they made it work
The footage of the tornado strike was unclear at best. The drone watching the area failed to zoom in for good damage assessment.
I think Helaena lives in the Greendream, so she happened to say Hi to Daemon while he was visiting. Didnt bother me at all
I think the cutting of the 2 episodes hurt the pacing of this season. I think they could have done without the Rhaenyra & Alicent secret meetup scenes. They didn’t really add much to the story. Overall I liked the season 6.5/10.
I can’t wait for battle of the Gullet, Tumbleton 1&2, and Aemond v Daemon above the Gods Eye.
GRRM is my favorite author and I love the world that he has created for these books/shows.
Big fan of your writing channel happy I found this channel too.
It felt like the episode where they move all the pieces on the board so that they can pay it off the following episode... Only weve got to wait a year (or 2) for the pay off, so theyll have to remind everyone what's going on in like 10 minutes at the start of next season
I mostly loved it. It was far better than it could've been, with the season being shortened. They did the best they could considering that restriction.
The remaining big players were fleshed out more. Daemon finally discovered a purpose in life, something which, as the spare heir, he'd never had before, and it wasn't remotely what he expected it to be (that aimlessness was always at the core of his problems, I think, especially once he was removed from succession), and he managed to stare his own death in the face and emerge from it stronger. The final scenes of all the players moving to take their places on the chessboard was pretty masterful. It was the perfectly natural point to end a chapter and season, ready to start a new chapter in the next.
A huge amount of the people complaining seem concerned with spectacle rather than story, though not everyone, and I'm completely the other way. We had the spectacle - that battle was astounding - and it happened at the right point. Racing through to shoehorn another battle into a truncated series would've have been a mistake. Cutting the season short was the biggest mistake, but the writers and showrunners did what they could with it. Here's hoping the next season gets the episodes it needs.
I loved how nuanced Alicent became this season and it’s easily the best part of the finale for me.
My whole problem is that due to cutting the season short, everything felt rushed and there was no time for the characters, much less the audience, to be able to process or ruminate on the events so the aftermath is more or less nonexistent
As someone who is iffy on the whole song of ice and fire capital P prophecy, I didn't need a vision directly tying the IP together
this was actually my fav episode of HOTD/GOT so far
2:10 it has to be Danny! she woke dragons from stone! the epilogue tells you what the pyre is made of and there's no stone, but there's sounds of stone cracking bc the egg were petrified
To me, the episode was perfect. Too bad I'll have to wait 2 years to see 9 and 10 lol 🤷♀ (it's basically been confirmed during their last podcast that 3x01 will be what should have been at the end of s2, had Warner Bros not fumbled everything)
I'm pretty sure that, if Season 3 shapes up to be great, people will come back to S2 and admire it for what it does. Something similar happened to Halo 2 when Halo 3 came out, and I'm sure it'll be something similar.