Why Are There No Competitive Arena Fighters?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 жов 2017
- Arena fighters are a popular game genre when it comes to party fighting games. The real question we're here for today, however, is why have none of these games ever been competitive?
Discord links to the scenes mentioned:
Shrek SuperSlam - / discord
Tom and Jerry in War of the Whiskers - / discord
Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee - / discord
Power Stone - / discord
One Piece: Grand Adventure - / discord
A fair warning, most of these scenes are quite dead and most of the activity you'll find is in the Shrek Discord.
Thanks for watching the video! If you liked the video, please like and share it and possibly even subscribe! It really does help a lot. I hope to see you in the next video. - Ігри
![Damage Animations [Animation]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0xHE3ypX96U/mqdefault.jpg)
In anarchy reigns, your run speed is faster when you lock on to an enemy. It made running away from people a bad strategy as the opponent locked onto you could catch up to you.
usually when i talk about arena fighters, i'm usually thinking about a typical fighting game that can be played locally like street fighter where you share a screen, but anarchy reigns looks fun even though i never got to play it
Thankfully, stuff like Dissidia NT did this too with their dash as well. Even in other exceptional arena fighters like Naruto Storm (especially in Gens; go check out SaveHavenForStylers' montages for examples), the 3rd plane in general or any form of defensive playstyle causes commitment to offense to be a pure waste of time as it's so easy to camp guard in a good number of these types arena fighters.
Tho some like J-Stars, One Piece Burning Blood and Dissidia NT at least have some mechanics that can track and punish sidesteps (J-Stars and Burning Blood in particular have tracking guard breaks which somehow got thrown out the window in Jump Force). And in both Gundam Versus and Dissidia NT, you have to really pay attention to your environment as team play is heavily involved with other plenty of sidestep punisher tools.
A lot of these arena fighters when one actually takes time to study them deeply outside of just giving Smash that kind of treatment solely due to the IPs it houses, actually have good ideas and other unexpected or unnoticed design flaws not talked about. Everyone keeps talking about the button mash problem when there's other actual issues.
Modern anime arena fighters are pretty good, but they are not complex enough to be interesting
i agree, though my biggest complaints is that a lot of them play very similarly and they typically have a 3rd person camera which damages a local experience imo. it's hit this formula of well designed but not well thought out. they can continue this design because it works but never exploring the genre outside of this formula will also never give it the chance to pop out since there's just no diversity in arena fighters like there was more than a decade ago.
Try Gundam Versus and Final Fantasy Dissidia NT. Both of these games are balanced, complex and have a competitive scene. However they are still not popular in the US but rather in Japan.
Storm happened to be an exception (check out SaveHavenForStylers), but Naruto Storm Gens is the one prime example of an exception people don't go back to. Even when there were some mechanics it had that we removed in Storm 3 due to a new division of CC2 taking over and focusing more on making the story stuff look flashier.
Plus, Storm's tech is too invisible to most people who easily just disrespect the source material but for good reason as Shippuuden/part 2 was too milked.
Uuuuuuuuuuhhhh what? What are you talking about?@@neutralnarration1463
Hope this goes viral somehow
Especially if it encourages people to play these types of games competitively.
6:38 Imagine if Shrek Super Slam became a competitive game like Smash Melee and Anthrax became a Shrek SuperSlam version of Jigglypuff. Shrek Sslam can even have their own Hungrybox
This was an amazing analytical approach to the genre and I've been writing up things for an arena fighter I've been brainstorming for, and this perspective is very important to see!
I also want to bring Dissidia: Final Fantasy to your attention. It wasn't as competitive and very cinematic in playstyle, and the sequel Duodecim has some meter management systems with their assists,but it also had very similar issues to these games such as long drawn out matches, powerful zoning, and in addition to all that, not having any reliable combos due to most moves being meant to knock away the opponent into a wall. It also did a lot of things that others shown here did right such as a pretty well-balanced environmental interaction system and a focus on 1v1 with a diverse roster.
I think that with additions such as grapples for block punishes, moves made to combo into each other, the addition of tech chasing and a more confirms into HP attacks, Dissidia could have absolutely been very competitive although confined to the PSP, and I'd put my bets on that style being almost as close to the next step as Shrek Super Slam could be.
Thanks again for making this video, do make more!
I'll also add that like divekicks in Powerstone, most attacks would home in or auto-aim to the opponent. Most moves were a projectile or lunge in that game but that's how they managed the free camera control when one person had a whole screen to themselves. Definitely take a look at the game and see what you think!
i've always wanted to try dissidia but i've never had the chance to because i never owned a PSP but now that i have a decent pc, i have no reason not to try it now lol.
this is just me going off watching gameplay some time ago but it looks like an acquired taste of arena fighter that's unlike the games i've shown in the video, but i think that's a good thing. i'd like to see a day where arena fighters are big enough to have 2 or 3 different entries into large competitive gaming events for the sake of covering grounds in player interests. i prefer one piece grand adventure over power stone because i prefer super meters and the 3d environment being less interactive but focusing more on the characters fighting each other while using the knowledge of the stages to their advantage. i think it adds more of a direct confrontation kind of effect when you're not bouncing off the walls everywhere like you're in a spiderman game. at the same time, however, early shrek superslam meta and power stone also have their appeals to me with having a very interactive environment such as items, movement options on certain objects on the stage, wall jumps, attack from the walls, etc.
i think if arena fighters were to make it into the world of competitive gaming, you really couldn't have just one of them as there are certainly different flavors that players would prefer. i get things from one piece grand adventure that i'd never get in power stone and vice versa. from the looks of it (and from memory), dissidia looked like one of those games that could fit other arena fighter players that don't prefer the styles of one piece or power stone.
Another great arena fighter is the one of Billy and Mandy for the ps2, gamecube and wii
I would LOVE to see a competitive scene for that game, it is so diverse and i've been trying to put together an actual tier list, because the characters have both pros and cons like good ranged melee attacks but low health or strenght.
An example would be Mandy, she deals a lot of damage but has poor range due to her tiny arms, and Viking having humongous health and strenght but poor light and heavy attacks
Unfortunately, i haven't found good information (if any) online about the mechanics and characters, all that i have gathered has been personal experience playing the game, also, the game lacks of a guard button, the only way to escape and dodge is by dashing
It’s so cool that someone else is interested in the B&M game. Something about the game makes it feel so good to play. It’s what got me into the Arena fighter genre.
I, too, was looking for someone else who interested in the game too. I have been trying to find any competitive footage of it let along someone playing it thru netplay. This game deserved to be revisit.
The Gundam extreme versus series has a big competitive scene in japan
Found this video while I was searching "best arena fighting games" and I just wanted to say excellent job. A very good look at the arena fighting genre. I like arena fighters because I don't really like the linear style that most fighting games utilize, usually because they rely on extremely tight button press windows and there's always a very large skill gap between, two things that arena fighters tend to overcorrect on; most end up being button mashers and/or, like you said, run-away tactic games. The first Xenoverse was a button masher, but Dimps went along and made some improvements for Xenoverse 2. Unfortunately, due to the success of FighterZ I doubt Bandai will consider a Xenoverse 3, which is sad because we definitely need some more good arena fighters.
Anyway, I just wanted to say good work on the video, and that I hope game devs will consider expanding upon the formula that games like Power Stone and XV have built, because I think there's a lot of untapped potential.
So what I got from this is that you suck at traditional fighting games 🤡
@@Undertaker93 It's always the same with you guys isn't it? Someone criticises your precious 2D Fighting Games and you automatically assume it's just because they're bad at it? You ever stop to think that maybe people like different things?
@@Undertaker93 jesus i dont blame people for hating the fgc if this is how you treat them
Imagine if the devs of Shrek Super Slam saw competitive scene of their game and they decided to try to create competitive friendly version of their game.
Maybe remaster?
Or they make a new game From scratch?
Have you ever played Virtua On, Armoured Core for Answer, Urban Reign, or Def Jam Fight for NY? These are probably the best examples of an arena fighter. Plus Power Stone, but you already have your opinions on that.
Thank you so much. I learned a lot from this video!
What about Virtual-On, the Gundam Vs series, DBZ/Naruto/J-Stars, Def Jam FFNY, Bushido Blade, Ehrgeiz? I always felt the former two + Power Stone 1 are gold standards for arena fighters.
i put def jam more into the category of wrestling games since i thought the gameplay between them was quite similar. i've had no one to really experiment the competitive value of the naruto and dbz, assuming you mean naruto storm/the budokai tenkaichi series. bushido blade from what i recall was quite camp and runfest. usually when someone started jumping and running around, it looked like two dudes with swords running around playing tag. for j-stars i'm gonna assume j-stars victory vs which was all right. everything else i'll have to look into.
Well, Clash of Ninja, Narutimate, Budokai, Budoten, Xenoverse.
"bushido blade from what i recall was quite camp and runfest."
Exactly how I remember it lol.
BZ Choy 95 percent of those games are casual. Xenoverse? Really?
The only few tings with j-stars as a fighter is how fast meter is drained across the board, and that makes everyone feel same-y with most characters having the same kind of approach. Building a 2nd meter doesnt do much since it depletes after doing a special and running into camera issues is often. It'd really help there were more options than "get 3 kills in a 3-on-3 to win" (thats counting support). Having to rely on kills for a few super really limits accessibility to it than ur average fighter. Also they made Goku and Rao OP. Other than getting assists, u cant get out of a combo. Its still in a way better position than most arena fighters
Dbz and naruto are way too unbalance ,to many bs and zoning moves in the right players hand
ProviderOfSouls We really need more 3D arena fighting games.
Soo for honor isn't one
4:40 funny how the father of the genre nailed aspects many others haven't.
I was expecting a video about anime arena fighters, but this was interesting, too.
Great video dude
When is the next character guide? We have a small scene at my school, and we need more guides. I suggest Shrek/Quasimodo next, or Donkey.
the guides are more work than i'd like to put in for me now since i don't play shrek superslam anymore. i don't enjoy the game anymore so it's more of a task to make the guides. i am trying to get someone else to start making them so more are likely to come but definitely not from me.
Too bad. Your videos inspired our local scene in the game. Thanks for the reply!
Im currently making an arena fighter and with research one of the most complaints about thirdperson fighting games is you cant really see the distance as well causing misses and this is the reason arms have extendable arms. What do you think about this?
Look into the Custom Robo-series. It handles such problems pretty well.
Maybe a camera angle more similar to takken?
Are you still making the arena fighter? I'm in the process of making one as well
Followed you after learning you gave Phil the gravelord sword
I'd love to see top-level play of games like Ehrgeiz and Deadliest Warrior, though the latter might not be pretty. Anarchy Reigns certainly showed it's shortcomings online, due to the things that needed to be patched (but it was published by Sega and a game that wasn't about furries, so of course that never happened).
Good watch. The first 3 DBZ tenkaichi games would be good example of an arena fighter to study. It almost worked, but camping was a prob, characters felt too similar, it had lengthy finisher cutscenes, and suffered a few other issues not related to it being an arena fighter.
I'm curious as to your thoughts on Kill La Kill If and MHA One's Justice. KLKIF has actually had official tournament presence on top of a small community keeping the game alive, and My Hero Orange Juice is pretty good too and supposedly has a pretty decent scene through Globku.
Have you played "LastFight" ? It's inspired by the french comic "Last man"... I've talked with the devs and they mainly draw inspiration from powerstone/smash/street fighter. IT's quite fun and there are some nice mechanics. I don't know how it would deal with camping tho.
i haven't played it but i've seen the game and the characters and art look great, but it really lacks a lot of things to stop players from running away from what i've both seen and heard. it's a shame because a lot of the characters and their moves look really unique and that's a thing many arena fighters lack is the diversity in playstyles of their roster. it's really hard to make it so these kind of games can't be campy without adding something that feels artificial such as only being able to dash towards your opponent. you'll find this in a lot of arena fighters where the developers wanted to make something like power stone and succeed in just about everything besides the key point of reducing the strength of the keep away game. that aspect is overlooked so frequently despite being crucial for any of these games to be taken on a competitive level.
yeah it almost seems like a limitation of the genre itself... some anime fighters(like arcana hearts of DBZF) have either "instant dash" that makes you rush toward the opponent(can be countered by some kind of defense of course) or teleports... There could also be some option to trigger transformation of stage hazard to force another player to flee from his safe camping zone ?
I think lastfight was one of the first arena fighter to be made "to be competitive" instead of simply a party game, so there haven't been a lot of research in that area for now.
I grew up a huge fan of the Godzilla Pipeworks trilogy & War of the Monsters, and:
I'm really happy to say that GigaBash (after playing the alpha playtest) is really my dream game. It feels amazing mechanically and it seems amazing in competitive 1v1, definitely recommend keeping an eye out. The devs posted a match from their studio tournament livestream on their channel if you all wanna see it at high level.
The chars all felt rly unique and all have great options, seems well balanced from my short time with it so far. Only thing it needs is an option to turn off S-class mechanic, and it seems perfect to me from my time with it.
Custom Robo: Battle Revolution is a great competitive arena fighter. The game doesn’t have any random effects like items, it has extremely high character diversity, and it has great movement. Camping is a problem in the game, but we’re currently testing a banlist to change that. Look into the UA-cam channel Custom Robo Videos.
Yeah Funky Big Heads are the cause of the camping problem in the Gamecube version imo lol. And Facro but that is pretty much an exploit.
Subscribed!!
I recently got into Pokken (partly how I found this video) and even though it's quite simplistic, its 3D mode is a good example of how one one can make 3D competitive.
Some of the stuff that Pokken does that these games don't do:
- You always face your enemy*. For obvious reasons, this makes it easier to hit your opponent. It also makes all movement a reaction to your opponent's movement, which limits ambiguous movement a bit.
- The 3D mode is built around around projectiles/long ranged attacks*. This removes the ability to run away indefinitely.
- The hitboxes are really wide or multihit (the point is they cover more options which compensates for having extra defensive options, so you can pressure opponents without needing hard reads and stage control actually becomes a thing at the edges of the stage).
*Arms also does this.
The balance of the game relies a bit on forced transitions, so substituting forced transitions with combos could completely break the balance of the game (otoh substituting every forced transition with a Melee-esque tech-chase situation could be fun). Also, the fighting mechanics of Pokken are a bit shallow. The point is, the Pokken and Arms styles are where we'd likely find a really fun, nuanced 3D fighter.
Another solution is to encourage players to go towards a certain part of the map. Maybe the center charges your super or outside the stage does damage. Having an objective works well in the FPS genre, fighting games should be allowed to add them too (in fact platform fighters can be seen as traditional fighters with a Sumo-esque objective)!
I highly suggest you check out Gotcha Force, specifically the Tournament VS edit of it. It's another arena fighter made by Capcom for the Gamecube, however with a gacha take on the genre. It uses a team building "cost system" where each character costs a certain amount depending on how strong they are, and you build teams up to 1000 points based on this cost. The game has 104 legal characters to play as and almost each and one of them are very unique and fun to play as. The game rewards the player for great okizeme and has really engaging 3D-platformer physics and mechanics built into the characters, however you can also play as flying characters that use a unique flying movement system.
You can check competitive matches of it on my channel. I hope you can join our community as there are only two active players atm... Very underated game
i was surprised to not see custom robo for the gamecube shown in the video, was it more niche than i thought?
I played a bit with Ehrgeiz and Destrega back in the day. Was damn fun.
Power Stone 2, Last Fight, Urban Reign, and Combat Core! Man I would so play these competitively at tourneys for sure! :D
TMNT Mutant Melee and Digimon All Star Rumble too
Great video, i have been thinking about and wanting an arena fighter with depth that works
What are your thoughts on Pokken, and what 3D fighters can learn from Pokken?
Check out the Custom Robo-series. So far it's the best of eliminating spamming and camping.
ARMS is also pretty good but the controls are a little too tanky and you always lock on to enemies, which makes it weird with more than two players and doesn't allow for out-of-the box-thinking strategies
Yo this was pretty educational
Has anyone experimented with War of the Monsters? I find it can be an interesting 1 life, 3 rounds game as long as you don't mind a resource focused fighting game (which could be boring for those looking for combo games).
it's been a while since i've played it but i do recall when playing with friends that you could just run away anywhere you wanted most of the time and if your projectile and long range special was good, there wasn't a lot of reason to approach. i do still have the game though so if i ever get a chance to play with someone interested in labbing it, i could look at it again, but i'm not expecting much going back into it. fun as hell game casually though.
Previous arena fighter games often featured top-down camera angles, focusing on the moving aspect and often being chaotic. I think it has a lot of potential that the old games had offer such as: tactics in moving, launching attacks, exploring and taking advantage of the terrain. But
Good Stuff
Great Video.
Please play and let me know what you think of:-
Groove Adventure Rave: Fighting Live / Rave Master for Nintendo Gamecube.
it's interesting? i'm not too fond of the power ups and weapon drop system and i feel like they edged more toward power stone 2, which is a game i think is overshadowed in terms of mechanics by the first power stone
1. press button do automatic combo
2. do big super
3. rinse and repeat
PvP, that won't work
Maybe against AI, but even then only on lower difficulties
There is a competitive Arena Fighter. Pokkén Tournament. Not focused much on the FGC, but the game does have it's own community and still have tournanents that you can check in the offical Pokémon channel.
i know of it, but i just don't think it hits that arena fighter sweet spot. it's much closer to a 3d fighter imo, though i think the uniqueness of it is a great help in shedding some light on more niche fighting games.
Im surprised Rumble Fighter didnt get mentioned. It's basically the spiritual successor of Power Stone and currently is the longest running supported Arena Fighter.
What do you think about Pokken Tournament or Gundam Versus? you think they'll take Arena Fighters in the right direction?
i have seen this video a houndred of times
“Why do we never see a competitive arena fighter?”
Because people in the west aren’t taking the Gundam Extreme Versus series seriously. That game is the high bar.
People just don’t get it, do they?
They don’t even bother it being called an anime game at worst.
Honestly, all of these games look awkward to control with the weird isometric views and changing camera angles. Even in the Power Stone footage the movement of both characters looks really stiff to me.
This video is pretty old and I don't think it properly articulates my complete thoughts on arena fighters like I'd want it to. I'd agree that the isometric view can add some awkwardness but in my general experience, it only becomes an overall apparent negative when the game focuses too much on aerial combat. Your ability to to decipher depth when aerial combat is prevalent becomes nigh irrelevant when there are very little visual cues given by the game. While I do think One Piece: Grand Adventure's camera is easier to read and more functional, the isometric view does come with what I believe to be overall benefits especially when this genre typically can reward use of the environment that you fight in.
Power Stone's stiffness comes from both it's deliberate design and dated controls. Most of the actions are quite committal like for example, the directional jump can't have it's trajectory changed once initiated. It can be viewed as a negative given the typical fluidity (sometimes too fluid) of arena fighters but it gives decisions more weight. The major factor in its stiffness is due to the 8-directional movement and actions automatically targeting opponents.
I wouldn't say any of these games themselves have the potential to be large competitive arena fighters. Despite my appreciation of One Piece: Grand Adventure, I can't deny its issues. I don't think any game in this video has that potential but I do think the latter examples give a decent foundation on how to approach making something in this subgenre competitively viable.
Imagine a fully fledged competitive oriented Shrek SuperSlam remake
What about Psychic Force?
what do you think of Pokken Tournament and Final Fantasy: Dissidia?
I think one of the few arena fighting games that are doing fairly well is For Honor. Despite its rough launch, the game did get better with dedicated servers, balancing, and new heroes to come. I wonder what your thoughts are on this game?
Pretty accurate in the argument of campiness, really. But alas, A HUGE INCOMING essay with that shit.
Though of course, a lot of 1-on-1-styled arena fighters (Virtual On, Touhou Koubutou and Naruto Storm) are way more balanced in this regard, since there's an 'axis' that doesn't get defied in most cases akin to how the dives in Power Stone and the dashes in Grand Battle 3, Rush and Adventure work.
Though in the case of VO and Touhou, those arena fighters are more akin to a 3rd-person shooter with independent attack buttons that change based on character proximity; Touhou Koubutou is also said by some people like some of my friends to have very fluid movement options at least.
However, the other examples of those arena fighters (Shrek and Tom & Jerry) tend to be built for multiple players more than 2 to be on-field at once. As a result, a lot of fuckery tends to happen in terms of campiness (since those games don't have a form of 'axis' that's commonly made use of through a form of lock-on system).
Smash Bros. as a 2D arena fighter as some people will call it (or platform fighter, whatever you pick) is at least balanced with having mainly the Y and X-axis be the main areas of movement, so camping isn't as strong (and the Z-axis is far too subtle of an element).
Even then, Dissidia NT and the Gundam Versus series plays with this quite well. Not too sure about Gundam Versus, but in the case of Dissidia NT, the dash when you don't touch the control stick and when locked-onto someone is significantly more faster than the standard controllable one (called a Seeking Dash), so it makes defying the 'axis' between you and your foe a bit harder. That, and there are tools that can effectively punish sidestep abuse like in Gundam.
However, even then there's issues with NT having situations where ganging up on a single target 2 v 1 is a recurring issue with no in-engine penalty. Smash Bros in that sense still has that same problem, though Gundam Versus seems to have been more built around the team play more effectively than NT has.
Then again, us American players given how seriously we even take League of Legends in our infrastructure compared to Europe or Korea are not ones to even enjoy the teamplay aspect of NT or Gundam Versus as much as Japan has (hence why they enjoyed solid success as arcade titles for a given amount of time as arcade culture is pretty much dead here in the US). That, and Dissidia NT's movement options aren't as versatile as say, Naruto Storm, given how laggy on recovery some of them are with very few cancel mechanics (Sephiroth is the only character in NT with a legit-dash cancel mechanic in mind).
Furthermore, many anime arena fighters barring Naruto Storm (which has plenty of tech that can render this useless) have the issue of camp guarding, especially if you can block without causing your guard to deteriorate on its own, which pretty much forces your foe to try and directly contest you to even break through your defenses.
The 2D arena fighters/platform fighters Jump Super Stars and Jump Ultimate Starts imho suffered from this due to their guard break moves being far too slow and easy to just run away from and stuff (with the aforementioned issue of your guard durability only lowering from being directly attacked; and this is barring the fact that push blocking exists).
Even then like in Naruto Storm, you mainly need some broken advanced combos + strong overpowered moves and assists to even bypass one's guard anyways (even though Naruto Storm in most of the older games involves more technical use and specific assist combos with a whole lost meta of its own before Storm 3 ruined a lot of it).
At least in several of the anime arena fighters developed by Spike Chunsoft in the mid-to-late 2010s (J-Stars Victory Vs., One Piece Burning Blood and Jump Force) along with Kill la Kill IF (developed by A+ Games and PUBLISHED by Arc System Works, PUBLISHED) and My Hero Academia One's Justice 1 and 2 (developed by Byking), each of these games had some good ideas when broken down on their own, but ultimately, were held back by several other things.
First off, J-Stars is once again more on teamplay while having wonky and laggy movement mechanics (and laggy string finishers) with the 'axis' between you and a foe flickering between non-existent to at least being there (along with no intentional escape mechanics outside of assists bailing you out). The mechanic allowing you to mask your attack startup (depending on what move you input) with your forward step animation (be at the very edge of 'yellow lock-on range radius' from your foe) at least allows moves to properly be committal and confirm properly, though the sidestep mechanics can get really cheesy against a lot of specific moves at times (slower sidestep characters can barely even take advantage of this).
Even then, J-Stars and One Piece Burning Blood have tracking on their guard break attacks (though not all of them mainly in the former game can work as hit confirms), which really adds a bit more unique active-time-RPS to their neutral. Though for OPBB, they have both light guard breaks (faster but no tracking) and heavy guard breaks (slower but have sidestep tracking) to further the mixup flow. J-Stars' guard breaks while also being stuffed by fast attacks, can also be Just Guarded against, so they have a balanced form of counterplay and use when looking at them on their own imho.
And of course, the combo system in J-Stars, Burning Blood and Jump Force is quite solid in all honesty. The former two involve actually taking advantage of linking several specific attacks into each other to finish it off with your primary special-cancel-able bnb (and so far only Killua's autocombo Square string finisher has a use for combos), while the latter mainly involves taking advantage of 4-different grounded-strings you can chain (3 being being from your Rush Attack button in the form of X/Square, and 1 being your Heavy Attack with Y/Triangle).
Sadly, tracking guard breaks (hold X/Square or Y/Triangle for a Smash Attack) are absent in Jump Force as only Rush Attacks have some tracking, and throws (B/Circle) also have no tracking and lead into nothing when landed (Naruto Storm's grab attacks are far more versatile). Hell, combo'ing into throws off of specific inputs of your strings causes the hitbox to disappear as well.
While yes, there is chip damage in both Burning Blood and Jump Force (to make up for lack of stamina management tied to guard durability in J-Stars which makes resource management very important in that game), the former game is ultimately is very campy and more defensive than J-Stars or Burning Blood, on top of assists being used by holding down the Switch/Tag button which makes them unwieldy to use in real-time. Kaiba is also one of the few characters with the best Heavy Smash in the game due to Blue-Eyes' sheer size making up the hitbox of his first Y/Triangle string input as opposed to having any tracking (meaning you can punish backsteps with it too).
However, Jump Force and Burning Blood also suffer from a problem that involves the long string animations that cause them to easily be bait for their defensive mechanics; they both have a mechanic that is basically a 'while-getting-damaged-parry' that works like a combo-breaker-burst (Flash Counter in Burning Blood, and High-Speed Counter in Jump Force) which makes offense a bit more dangerously committal than it should be.
Flash Counter however, requires frame-perfect-timing akin to the KnJ/Substitutions in older Naruto UN games before Storm Gens, and High-Speed Counters while also dealing damage to your foe, require a resource. At least in Naruto Storm Gens onwards, the Sub/KnJ gauge functions with the same value as a combo-breaker-burst despite how much easier it is to use (spamming it will cause the gauge to refill far slower, forcing you to be frugal).
In fact, even though Naruto Storm is a game where there's a huge bevy of cancel options on your basic attack string (ninja move AKA the dodge sidestep, jump cancelling, chakra loading with Y/Triangle during the string, or cancelling into guard so you can also input a grab), it also suffers from the same string design for a lot of characters which should've been discarded as it's stuff that just leads into being KnJ/Sub bait against competent players, along with its long-to-reach finishers being flash and spectacle that leads into a far-away knockdown that offers nothing when there's more versatile cancel options to discover.
Even then, there are some of these arena fighters that tend to have attack strings that are too long that may have been haphazardly designed and with several of its mid-inputs not being as versatile as in other arena fighters like Storm or Gundam Versus. While KLK IF has better designed independent attack inputs akin to Virtual On, Touhou Koubutou and Dissidia NT, it suffers from a form of braindead-ness that allows for 5k combos to be far too easy to access by just mashing, along with less optimal TAS-level movement options compared to Smash Bros. Melee/DX or Budoukai Tenka'ichi 2.
And while One's Justice 1 and 2 also have smaller attack strings, and a level of active-RPS in the form of their yellow and red moves, their attack selection is still rather limiting given the face attack buttons amount to "basic attack, and 2 special hotkeys" (Alpharad, that alone doesn't make it more competitive than Jump Force, you know).
And honestly, in regards to the type of arena fighters also mentioned in this video, it's hard to try and truly compare every single one of these with a blanket statement since they all fit under multiple ends of the spectrum/diagram. Each one of these kinds of arena fighters stand out on their own very akin to a good number of 2D-HADOOOOOOUKEN-input fighting games.
Anyway, that's all I have to say....sorry if it's too long. : P
I may not be into 3rd person arena fighters as much as I am into ones like Power Stone but I've always had a spot in my heart for J-Stars. It's probably my favorite 3rd person arena fighter due to the combo system and serviceable neutral. It's incredible that every time I've booted the game to grind out some combos, I find some new tight links and it's just a combo system that hasn't really been replicated since in another arena fighter. It looks and feels janky as all hell but if I had to pick a system to refine, I'd have to pick J-Stars'. I remember I was really excited for Jump Force because I was hoping it was going to be the refinement of J-Stars I'd been wishing for, possibly focused on 1v1s and had the speed tweaked properly for it but after seeing gameplay and hearing some opinions from some friends who gave it a go, I never ended up giving it a shot myself. From what I've seen about the OPM arena fighter, it's not getting much better, lol.
@@ProviderOfSouls yeah the OPM arena fighter looks like a HUGE step down from OPBB.
And while I've played a shit ton of J-Stars on my Vita, I still find that game to be held back by a lot of shit. And when it comes to being able to clear the Arcade Mode Ultimate Difficulty with a fast record with no deaths, some iconic fan favorites really struggle to output enough consistent damage due to their kit. Even with a character like Gon who can output a crapton of damage with simple bnbs while powered up by his Kou (Stiffness), I have to be on a high of making really good reads thanks to the jacked up brutal AI, and gang-up damage being absolutely destructive when the AI enemies zero-in on you for a massive punish.
(I'm the guy named SneaselSawashiro on discord btw : P)
@@Abigdummy4life Completely forgot that game's single player existed and memories of those terrible and unfair 1v3 missions suddenly resurfaced. Probably a reason I forgot about the J-Stars single player modes lol.
@@ProviderOfSouls also, to further elaborate on Storm 4, LS (Leader Switch) pretty much screws up the said axis when you can just invalidate a lot of the directed offense by just tagging out. Storm Gens was the last best Naruto Storm game before the story-gameplay-focused shift as of Storm 3.
Have you tried Gundam Extreme VS Maxi Boost? That’s a pretty competitive arena fighter.
Pokken Tournament is fun as well as Combat Core (currently on Switch and steam)
Hahah I wish pokken was on steam
I've always liked the idea of a top down arena fighter that rellies entirely on ring out for kills, kinda like smash but it's an arena fighter not a platform fighter and there's no percent.
I highly suggest you Check out Combat core the main idea of the game is being a competitive arena fighter
i'm not too sure on the game being made on a competitive arena fighter, but if it is being made for that reason, the game (from what i've seen and other people into competitive arena fighters have told me) is quite casual and lacking in a lot of depth that you would need in a competitive game.
Also do a video on the greatest (worst) arena fighter of all time Simpsons Wrestling
The Tenkaichi series was very close to being competitively viable imo. But it had a few major problems holding it back. You could abuse camping. Running away and powering up was a viable option. Some finishers didn't do enough damage so you'd have to use the same ones over and over, and lastly you had giant characters that were immune to rush moves.
Running away and charging ki is not really viable, considering one singular ki blast requires you to stop charging and react
Then, in Tenkaichi 3 close combat, you want your ki to be lower than the opponents, because of how the Z-Counter works.
Blast 2s a.k.a. Supers can't be spammed, as they are easy to evade, you need good setups to make them effective, otherwise they just won't connect against a good player.
Giant characters, while not being hitstunned by regular melee or ki blasts, are also very big, very slow, and most of their Rush Strings can simply be blocked by mashing he guard button. Giants have bad Blast 2s and an even worse moveset, their size and slowness also makes their positioning almost always at a disadvantage, so they're trash. The exception being Great Ape Baby, as at least his Supers are actually good
Tenkaichi 2 has a whole cancelling system, flanking via slides, counters, setups, guarding in 5 directions and so on, it isn't just Tenkaichi 3 in worse, as many try to make it out to be
The main problem with it is the balancing. I mean, Kid Trunks' Lift Strike in BT2 taking out more than an entire Health Bar? Tenkaichi 3s Perfect Form Cell basically making half the roster his bitch? Really dumb if ya ask me. Aside from that tho, I'd say the Tenkaichi 2 and 3 are one of the best arena fighters
If they use split screen so each character has a camera, is that still an arena fighter?
I feel like Ehrgeiz if rebooted could make for an interesting competitive Arena Fighter.
overgrowth is a good example of an arena fighters game which is balanced. it is not a polished game but it has a very good mechanic system
Would soul calibur and tekken count as arena fighters? If no, then what makes them different from other arena fighters?
tekken and soul calibur are what i'd just call 3d fighting games since your character is forced to face your opponent's character, while arena fighters typically give entirely free movement in an environment that's not usually suited for normal fighting games as it can be interacted with and sometimes has a huge impact on entire characters and how they play. take for instance in power stone, there are a ton of tables you can slide over and pick up to throw at your opponent, poles you can jump and climb on, walls you can jump off of and do character specific wall attacks off of, stages with heights non consistent through the whole level, etc. most importantly though is your movement isn't locked to your opponent, and you could turn whatever direction you'd like and start moving towards that direction
ProviderOfSouls This makes a lot of sense. The free movement kind of makes it look like Smash Bros on a 3D plane. I find it interesting that the genre is defined by it's free movement, yet its free movement is also one of its main weakness, due to it leading to uncompetitive camping, yet I don't think other fighting games come close in having an environment that's as interactable as a good arena fighter. Like you mentioned, characters can do tricks on polls and do special wall attacks that separates them from other games. I wonder if arena fighters should borrow from other successful 3D games like Kindgom Hearts or Mario 64.
so far the only arena fighter formula that seems to have worked is "free but limited", where you still have your free movement but things such as your dashes in one piece can only target your opponent, or like in power stone where just about all of your move seek out the direction your opponent is. i don't want to rule out any other formula not working just because we haven't seen one with entirely free movement be competitively viable, but the evidence stacks against it and a lot of criteria would have to be met in other parts of the game to make it work imo, such as stages not allowing high ground camping, limiting air options and other things that just take away from the uniqueness of even having an arena fighter in the first place. i think the free but limited formula would be the best approach if a competitive arena fighter were to developed as so far, it's the only one that has worked.
Some examples of an entirely free movement arena fighter set Vs. the Free but Limited set:
It's very beneficial in Shrek SuperSlam to camp because nothing you do forces you to fight the player, and both players do just that in this sped up match, causing it to drag - ua-cam.com/video/nbSawQ-h5RQ/v-deo.html
One Piece: Grand Adventure in this time stamp at 13:55 shows an aggressive character stomping a zoning character because he was given the tools and approach options to do so, and he is rewarding for playing aggressively because he can build his meter more quickly which will allow him to use his Greatest Impact, an assist that makes his pressure even stronger (excuse the weeb music) - ua-cam.com/video/0y3o-XqBXD4/v-deo.html
a new Godzilla, Powerstone, heck i’d take anything
There seems to be a ton of balancing issues with these games. Fighting in matches should be rather simple but devs for these games screw up either in several places or all over the place. It should as simple as not all characters mash one button for their normal combo, if quarter-circles cant be put in, just give their moves different buttons as strings with even simulataneous buttons in the mix and have that different for each character. Supers should be dependent on how much meter u have and that can be a simultaneous press (say like A+B+Z) and possibly you can choose from a few different Supers or sets of Supers before a match (with few being unblockable, as long as not all the characters have that). From there, vary up everyone's walk and run speeds with a roster of unique characters (think One Piece or J-stars there), give it an overviewing camera, have a way to Burst out of combos with its own meter that builds over time and that should be it.
For Honor is a PvP battle game that is perhaps the closest thing to a fighting game in a 3d arena.
I'm not sure why but games Twisted Metal and Vigilante 8 kinda remind me of arena fighters, especially when it comes to deathmatch multiplayer gameplay...
What are your thoughts on Pokkén
No Max Anarchy/Anarchy Reigns?
Bruh, you never mentioned Custom Robo competitive scene? We have a competitive scene too. And our camera does not have depth perception issues.
I feel triggered :sadface:
Never forget Kill la Kill IF.
Pokken tournament is calling
Have you played in LASTFIGHT?
imo i think the closest we have to competitive arena fighters are Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Dead or Alive. I am aware that movement isn't really free as you are still forced to face your opponent and blocking is still the same like in traditional fighters. But you do have that 3D grid to move around with
Well those aren't actually arena fighters, they're 3D fighters. The line can sometimes be difficult to make out depending on the design of the game but the purpose of arena fighters is full 360 degrees movement in an arena that can consist of drop offs, interactive walls, different heights in the level, etc. While OPGA might have a similar camera to Tekken, my ability to turn around and walk away from my opponent and jump to a higher plane in the stage is what makes it an arena fighter. There's more emphasis in the arena you're fighting in, hence the name 'arena' fighter.
@@ProviderOfSouls oh i see. Well i also want to say for future arena fighters to be competitive there should be a way to turn items off. Devs can add whatever flashy mechanics they so please as long as its balanced enough, but as Smash player I agree completely having to use items in general really takes away the fun and ruins matches. the potential in these kind of games being competitive are indeed large.
i just want a sequel to marvel nemesis man
Custom Robo is my favorite arena fighter, but there isn’t a competitive scene for it when there should be one.
There is a competitive scene though. I am the head admin of the largest Custom Robo Discord server. Look at reddit Custom Robo and click on the link.
We are planning on a world online tournament for a CR inspired game the Japanese community has built.
I feel like sonic gather battle could have worked if it wasn't ransomware.
iT'LL BE A GRAND BATTLE!
Have you played war of the monsters?
yes, it was actually one of my childhood games and some of my friends even got netplay working for it via hamachi and pcsx2.
Do you think twisted metal counts as an arena fighter?
No Eyes Over Heaven mention?
I’m five years late to this but the Naruto area fighter was fucking awesome except that only 4 characters were good enough to play competitively once you got good enough with friends.
Pokken was well balance cause of the phase system ,cool game
I'd like to mention castlevania judgement for the wii its third person but its got good combos zoning isn't viable pretty fast paced
Technically pokken tournament aswell because you start in a 3d anera style called field phase but there is also duel phase which is 2.5d also zatchbell mamoto battles has full 3d movement even though it's on a 2d view
me and the boys tried judgement, it seems to favor running away a bit too much which is a shame since the only thing that makes it like that is the dodge, which shouldn't cover so much distance with some characters since it can be used to retreat over and over. block pressure, character diversity and whatnot were all pretty good for an arena fighter though.
Soul calibur is an arena fighter that I would have to see on this list
Try kill la kill if or storm 4
Ever heard of tenkaichi 3?
I'm still wondering why doesn't capcom make powerstone 3 or give powerstone 2 online for us. Me and my friends love that game to death. They have a game that could give make they money out this world.
thanks for bringing to my attention that free movement reduces the skill to play arena fighters
I think the items were there to try and punish players who just ran away.
Yep. The main issues- Camping, lack of viability, lack of character diversity, combo potential, etc.
Mighty Fight Federation could finally be the first true legit competitive arena fighter!
Lost saga was a fun arena fighter, but you need to dip time and money if you wanna get skills/characters
Are games like Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm not considered arena fighters?
typically when i mention arena fighters, i'm referring to more classic games of the 3d free movement genre like power stone and one piece grand adventure. behind the back camera games lack a great local playing field unless they take the bt3 approach and give both players a screen split down the middle, but at that point, why not just give an even camera that both players can work with on one screen. they work great online when the screen only belongs to you but looking at a local tournament environment, i think it'd be better off with the classic arena fighter camera.
Interesting, I'm trying to make a fan game that's 3D and I just wanted to have the characters spaced out and more focused on 3D movement but it seems like I'll have to look at a lot of examples to get that right mix.
Isn’t xenoverse a arena fighting game?
don't worry guys, i'm cooking. no one is doing THAT game, so i took matter in my own hands
Power Stone 2 should be ported to Switch.
Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm franchise was pretty good for the gendra back in the days...
Kill la kill If
KLK IF?
Ez. Its called smack studio.
Isn't human fall flat an arena fighter?
Technically pokken is partially an arena fighter
The problem is that there are multiple sub genres of arena fighter; you have the blatant Power Stone ripoffs, you have the anime fighters, the more realistic ones, etc.