You guys should seriously have your own reality show or discovery channel show about photography and it's industry. Whether u both agree or disagree about how the industry and some companies should more forward in the future, u guys are THE BEST informative and entertaining photography hosts I've ever seen. Everything I've done and purchased for my life and business came from your thumbs up or thumbs down. Much appreciated, always!
and these guys keep it so real. They don't try to protect certain brands just to push sales at their store. They honestly tell you which brands they think are under-performing and aren't afraid to bash cameras that deserve it. Awesome!
I think you already said what would be the winner option. Create a highend mirrorless camera that out of the box can support the whole existing lenses, no one would buy a sony or a fuji if he is already heavily invested in Canon gear and can re purpose the gear he already owns.
I dont get this at all ! . just any current high end DSLR in liveview mode is exactly what you and the guy in the Vid is suggesting. seems so redundent we already have that functionality what extra does it does it give us? an EVF?
tobi foong the point is having a much smaller body and faster focus. if you can use your old lenses then you can transition without a huge expense. The era of huge DSLR bodies is over. Only specialized PROs need the D4s and 1DX and such. the rest of us prefer to carry something like the sony a6000 in size.
***** Don't agree with you at all about "Only specialized PROs need the D4s and 1DX and such. the rest of us prefer to carry something like the sony a6000 in size."
You guys have, by far, the best camera reviews on UA-cam. Great discussions and field tests with entertaining personalities while still being really informative. Keep up the awesome work!
1. Pentax has weather sealed cameras. They still cannot crack Canon/Nikon dominance. 2. Fujifilm has one weather sealed camera. At the same time Fujifilm has lousy video despite being a mirrorless camera. Also, all sales of Fujifilm combined are barely a blip on Canon's radar. Here are some problems with mirrorless cameras (and I have been mirrorless for quite a while): 3. Lenses are overpriced. They use a lot less glass than Canon/Nikon FF offerings, yet within the range of what most people buy, C/N's lenses are cheaper and better made. 4. Video is not consistent. Panasonic and Sony implements good video. Fuji and Olympus do not (Canon's 70D beats any that those two brands offer despite being an SLR). 5. As soon as you get to APS-C size, longer bright lenses (if you can find any, good luck) weight the same as SLR's lenses, and weight and size advantage disappears. In fact, with less ergonomic and smaller bodies, there is now an imbalance. 6. Most people still prefer an optical viewfinder. What I would love to see is Panasonic G7 (same exact form factor as G6) but with GH4 sensor. Alas, Panasonic purposely crippled G6 with an old sensor and thus killed the camera. Now there are rumors the G line is dead. I don't want GH*. Way too big and heavy. Might as well get a Nikon D7100 or similar. Video does not matter that much to me.
mountainhobo 1. Waterproof is not weather sealed. It means taking it under water and maintaining functionality. See the AW1 for an example of a waterproof camera. 2. What the christ does it matter what Fuji's sales are? They kick ass because of the products they release and the support they provide to their customers. 3., 4., 5. How did my statement make you think I was debating the benefits of mirrorless vs. DSLRs? 6. Evidence? Of all the pictures being taken these days, I'm willing to put money on Live View being the overwhelming method used for composition. Does that make Live View better? No, of course not, but that doesn't mean it's not true. As far as the rest of your reply goes, I'm confused as to why it's even a reply to my comment.
tgmwright "As far as the rest of your reply goes, I'm confused as to why it's even a reply to my comment." Not just in that respect, I think. "What the christ does it matter what Fuji's sales are?" I see. It kicks ass, just doesn't sell much. Got it. You advise Canon and Nikon to do something, supposedly similar to Fujifilm (NOT Fuji) - because Fujifilm "kicks ass". Guess what, Canon and Nikon are businesses, and quite successful. You want them to take a loss so they can "kick ass"? That's hobby, not business.
mountainhobo Did you watch the same video I did? I don't remember hearing anything about being limited to "fiscally responsible decisions" we'd like Nikon and Canon to make. Dropping "film" at the end of Fujifilm probably isn't going to confuse anyone reading my comment. The guys in the video even refer to the company as "Fuji", and I'm fairly certain they weren't talking about the mountain, so get the fuck down from your soap box. And if you're really going to dispute FujiFILM's current lineup being a design success and their kickassery because they're not selling as many units as Nikon and Canon, you're probably the same moron who thinks Apple's computers don't "kick ass" because of their small market share in the consumer and corporate world. Good luck making that argument. Now, sit down.
I hope these "After Dark" shows continue. This topic in particular is very interesting and much needed. So far, the average Joe would still pick up a Canon or Nikon because of the name, but people with more knowledge about recent innovations have been moving elsewhere (even if they still have a Canon or Nikon, too). I've owned non-professional Nikon and Canon cameras, and I loved them at the time (and still love them)...but even 4 years ago, when the Sony A55/A33 and NEX 5/3 came out, I knew that things were changing. (The development of micro four-thirds by Panasonic and Olympus was also a milestone.) I became a fan of Sony years before buying a Sony. (I now have a Sony A77 Mark II.) I wish their NEX-like series had in-body image stabilization. If they had that, then I'd definitely get one in the future. As things are, Olympus has some interesting cameras, even if they have slightly smaller sensors. I'm not sure what kind of mirrorless I'd get. However, just with SLR-style cameras, the Sony A77 Mark II has amazing autofocus and beautiful image quality. It also has "Eye Autofocus" and a slew of other features. For a job, I used a Canon DSLR and I hate that in "live view" mode, the focusing is so slow. (It's not the dual-pixel one, though, so newer Canon cameras might be better.) I hate having "live view" work differently from the "viewfinder" mode. With my Sony, I'm blown away, and I feel that it is the best APS-C camera out there (and I prefer APS-C to full-frame anyway). I do hope you do a review on the A77 Mark II soon.
Yes, Sony ar eputting out some great stuff lately. I tested out the A6500 at a photography show recently and it rocks! Very fast AF, good EVF, great tracking and burst mode. I just bought a Sony HX400V bridge camera (mainly for wildlife) which is lovely so far. The images are sharp and colours lovely (it has a Zeiss lens) reaching to 1200mm (equiv) optical zoom and fits in a small bag with all my filters, batteries & tiny Sony microphone for if want to shoot video too-great little set-up.
Unfortunately the fuel that drives innovation has traditionally come from pocket cameras. With every young person now having a quality P&S camera already built into their phone, that income well has dried up....
I agree, and not just "young" people! I'm holding of buying the Sony rx 100 iii until a few weeks when the new Samsung note4 is announced. Spec should be at least 16mp, image stabilised, shoot 4k video and have a 2k screen display. ..hello! ! sure, it won't have that extra bit of zoom reach or the fast 2.8 but with the awesome camera and photo apps out there now I can produce an image that's very close! So, now I need I MF sensor in a small body that can shoot 7fps and do 4k video. ...Thanks ;-)
Jaime Loyola No offence, but the next Samsung I guarantee will not match up to the RX100MK3. There will be no 1-inch sensor, no Zeiss lens that zooms, not to mention at a constant f/2.8 aperture. The quality difference will be huge. 4K and 2K display has nothing to do with the final product of the image.
Yeah until pocket cameras and cellphones start coming with an adjustable lens and all sorts of other features that pros have I don't see the market for pro cameras going south that quickly.
TimothyLawTV it will be no match in terms of IQ, but considering that he can shoot decent image quality or footage, edit it on the same device and upload it fast using the same device, watch it on the same device and share it with others on the same device, phones are becoming dominant.
One of the reasons I bought a mirrorless camera was the drastically smaller body and lens size. The best camera isn't the one with the best image quality, it's the one that's on you most often. A mirrorless is far more portable than a clunky DSLR...
good chat interesting to see where both companies go now. I agree that the C series video camera are probably a bit out of reach for the users who used t2i and t3i for video, the problem is for the money they're not that advanced, certainly when the higher end C models start to fringe on the price brackets of great video cameras like the F5 etc.
Nikon and canon need to do massive repricing and refreshing of their product line in order to adjust for the changes in camera technology. completely get rid of the 1/2.3 inch sensor cameras. replace that line with $200 or less micro 4/3 sensor cameras (micro 4/3 cameras have a very low BOM cost in the $100 range). This will bring back the entry level market from the smartphones. For the people looking for more, sell more reasonably priced APS-C sensor DSLR's ($300-500 range for cameras at the level of the D7100. then for full frame, Price them starting at around $700 for something at the level of the D610, and go up from there. Aside from most professionals, the vast majority of the market is comprised of people who are more basic and would like better quality but are perfectly willing to settle for a smartphone camera if they cannot get a camera with far better quality for a more reasonable price. They just have to accpet that the sub $1000 market will no longer net them a 500%+ profit margin if they want to sell many cameras.
I agree with you but the camera companies like to charge the max customers will be willing be pay even if that is more than what the majority will pay.
Pricing cameras based on the BOM cost ignores all the cost of doing business such as design, manufacturing costs, offices, advertising, logistics etc. A D610 for $700 is completely unprofitable, no matter how many they sell.
In 2014 the optical autofocus phase detection of dSLR cameras was amazing but the electronic hybrid autofocus of mirrorless had began to be very competitive even for professional work. In 2014 the domination of mirrorless cameras wasn't clear yet.
can we get an update of this video for 2016? why don't can/nik make a full frame mirrorless like A7RII with a version of the LA-EA4 to keep their glass useable? imagine if they shipped mirrorless full frame bodies packaged with an adapter as standard?
The solution is simple. Canon and Nikon should build compact mirrorless camera bodies with the same mounts that they use today but with short flange distances, for compactness. Each body would have what amounts to a telecentric optical system that would allow focus with their current DSLR lenses. This optical system could be designed for easy toolless removal so as new mirrorless lenses are designed, maximum optical benefit could be achieved. One benefit of optics in the body would include significantly easier cleaning, and what dust remained would of little consequence - like dust on a lens' front element, it is not generally noticeable on the final image.
I repair Canon lenses for a living here in Oz. Q-what camera do I use? A-Fuji X system. I think that says a lot about what Canon has to offer in the mirrorless market. Canon and Nikon have been way cautious in protecting there DSLR market by producing crap mirror less shit box cameras,in my opinion anyway. You guys came up with some great ideas over a few beers,maybe you should send a crate or 2 over to Japan,you never know it might work for them as well.
OK. You can shoot video at 4K with for example the Panasonic GH-4 when is there going to be a HDTV or a computer screen available to display that kind of resolution?
Isn't it possible to reduce the flange distance and increase the sensor size at the same time to make something like the Sony A7 with regular apsc lenses?
Next big thing? Maybe a mirrorless with an integrated (or just optional) Speedbooster that works with current lenses + a new line of lenses, for everybody who doesn't allready have lenses from Canon/Nikon or wants a smaller lens.
I have been sitting on the sidelines for almost a year to see how this all plays out. Bottom line, all the innovation and forward thinking is happening with mirrorless. DSLR still has full-frame nailed (and a slight but ever-shrinking lead in focus and low-light performance) but for anything short of a full pro setup they are losing ground. It's almost like they had a meeting and decided how to carve up the market. Sony made a big splash with their full-frame models and is relying on brand recognition (and Zeiss glass) for the mass-market appeal. Panasonic decided to go after broadcast-quality video where many think they now rival the "big boys". Olympus went for focus and burst speed stats combined with DSLR/SLR looks. Fuji decided to focus (unavoidable pun) on image quality and rangefinder retro backed with some pretty amazing lenses. Fuji took that one step further by coming out with the X100, the S and now T. I know over a dozen pros who are using this as a backup and for street shooting. This got them more integrated and accepting of the mirrorless format. Brilliant strategy. Canon and Nikon are in a pickle. Continue with their "circle the wagons" approach will only lead to further erosion. (Sorry guys, but incremental improvements just aren't cutting it anymore) Push whatever boundaries remain (for DSLR) will move them further away from the entry and enthusiast level. Jump on board with mirrorless and they will be seen as followers not leaders... and that is exactly what they should do until their superior resources allow them to catch and pass the competition. Or abandon the low and mid-range end of the market and throw everything at full-frame and video. What am I going to do? After giving serious consideration to the D7100 my order for an X-E2 went in a few days ago. That sweet 18-55 "kit" lens combined with the awesome primes and this ridiculous new 50-140 continuous f/2.8 coming out means this system and format are on the move and only getting better. Remember, the best camera is the one you have with you.
What should Canon and Nikon do. Hmmm. Thom Hogan has a lot of great ideas so I'm gonna steal a few. - Here's an original. Make an native mount mirrorless body, and come out with some lenses that have optical elements in the space that would have been occupied by the mirror box. - Beef up your DX lens maps. No reason for Fujifilm to have beat you to the punch in like 2 years of their mirrorless cameras' existence. Fast wide primes and some fast, high quality zooms with IS and all that good stuff. - Drastically improve workflow. Novices (like me) sometimes want to get pics from our cameras to FB or IG as quickly as possible. Professionals NEED to get pictures back to servers as quickly as possible - Make sequels to the 7D and D300s... the guys with them on DPReview won't shut up about wanting them and they have money for them. - Make a no-frills FX body under $1000. It should have video and WiFi and all that, but it should be made to pull noob consumers (like me!) into the FX fold. Bonus points if it's mirrorless. Canon would have the leg up here with their OSPDAF (though with Sony making Nikon's sensors they are pretty much neck and neck). - Get out of the compact camera game and into the cameraphone game. Use Android as the OS and get ahead of the curve with sensor array technologies. I think it takes 9 1/2.3" sensors to add up to the area of a DX sensor (something like that). They could boost the light transmission by having sensors only focus on collecting 1 color or just luminance or just focus, etc.Lot of potential there. There's so much they can do. They are stuck in the 90s with their progression and workflow. They both kind of need to upend their whole strategies and get with the times.
what would be cool is for canon to build a panasonic gh4 style mirrorless camera. It would be a canon rebel style body with modern 70d/t5i sensor, evf, twist flip lcd, side sd card slot, etc. Plus hoping the cheaper plastic rebel body is gonna be cheaper to make than the eos m metal body. Then later down the road, canon could extend the cinema line by adding ef-m mount on the cinema cameras. The shorter flange distance will allow for better adoption of legacy lenses. The mount should be continued as the existing lenses are very good. Basically, people want a better canon mirrorless body. As far as nikon is concerned, they need to move from the 1 system to a apsc system with a shorter flange distance mount. Then an adapter to adapt nikon slr glass. The tech behind the nikon 1 system can be used to improve the apsc nikon mirrorless. Also, NOTE to others, that please dont have an expensive add-on EVF for their future bodies unless it will be included in the kit.
So you ask what should Nikon and Canon do? I'm ready to dump my D700 as soon as a comparable mirrorless system enters the market. But it has to give me the same quality images, it has to have 3-4 lenses to go with it (or allow me to use my Nikkor lenses). But most importantly: it has to allow me to control it with the ease I can now control my Nikon without ever moving the camera from my eye. No important controls on a touch screen, thank you. And I don't know if I could live without a viewfinder. What am I saying? Of course I couldn't live without a viewfinder. I am looking for something light that would at the same time allow me to downgrade my sturdy tripod to something less heavy as well.
Variable flange mount is the key- offer new smaller lenses for new smaller bodies and use the variation to use the current DSLR lenses for those who opt to.
whats about the pentax Q System? You have a new small System with new Lenses and also the posibillity to use the big K-Mount lenses. Isn't that what you want?
I absolutely agree with two of your points regarding Nikon. First-> Make a variable flange distance mirrorless camera design for compatibility with existing DX and FX Nikkors without an adapter*. Second-> If Nikon makes this mirrorless camera an all-magnesium, X-T1 / FM2 style body done the right way(not like a Df) with good AF, MF and video Nikon would sell a ton of them. I would also add one more important idea that I have. If Nikon added in-body image stabilization to this camera then you would have VR on every Nikkor lens ever made!! Think about it. All of your 20+ year old Nikkor AI-S lenses would now be image stabilized! And even your newer AF and AF-S lenses without VR would now be stabilized. That would be awesome!!! (*Note: Nikon could emulate the pop-out lens design of the old Rollei TE 35mm pocket camera for the variable flange distance mechanism.)
When the next-gen curved Sensor technology becomes big, the lenses will be simpler to design, smaller and cheaper to produce. Hopefully, this will appear at Photokina
Great discussion! I am not a pro but agree big time with Jordan! I use a Canon 6D with quite a few mid-line lenses and shoot 80/20% photo/video. I actually love the body size and ergonomics, especially compared to my GH2, but would greatly appreciate the advantages mirrorless could bring. If canon could put in a good EVF and have decent contrast-detect focusing with face detection and focus peaking and a tilt-touch screen, I'd upgrade in a heartbeat. Maybe call it a 6M and improve wi-fi while they're at it. If I had this camera I would also be quicker to upgrade my 50/1.8 lens to a 50L. This is why I am very intrigued by the Samsung NX1. If the execution is good and has useable ISO 6400 and they add some f/1.4 lenses in a useful range in the next year, I could see me dropping Canon.
I'm still shooting my d200 its old and heavy. I want something new but nothing appeals to me yet . No D400 the D610 is not what I want maybe the new full frame that will be announced in September will be what I'm looking for. I also need a lighter system. I just got back from a hike into the mountains and I must be getting old I all most died carrying heavy gear I need a light camera hiking system any ideas?
This was a terrific conversation guys and something I think all of us videographers and photographers are thinking about. I own the Canon 70D and recently upgraded my lens to the Canon 24-70mm L series ii lens. The addition of this very expensive lens (way more expensive than the camera itself!) gave me the best possible images from this camera. I am a vocal coach and use the camera to film my students in performances as well as youtube tutorials that I am producing. The camera is terrific, especially in terms of auto-focus. But the fact that Canon seems to have purposely left a head-phone jack off the camera is just ludicrous!! The "suits" at Canon must be Hell-bent on forcing customs to purchase their C-100, 300 and 500 series, yet they are completely over-looking the semi-professional market. I am tempted to "jump ship" and head on over to Panasonic for the GH4. But, I am hoping against hope that the "suits" at Canon will get it together and give us tight budgeted video guys everything we want and love about Canon!
Coming from someone who went from a nikon system (D800, and some 2.8 glass) to the sony NEX system, I think they should meet in the middle between the A7 series and the GH4. I'm actually thinking about going back to DSLR's (which will be stupidly expensive), and the reason is purely ergonomics. Without the real-estate on the body itself, its very hard to make a camera that is easy to hold and use all day long. Going into the menus to change common settings (autofocus settings, bracketing etc) is annoying. And yes you can customize buttons on the outside, but it's very cramped and you can't pick up any other camera and just use it without customizing it. It doesn't help that Sony's menus are atrocious. But if Nikon and cannon would make a camera that is backward compatible, and the size of a GH4, with all the external controls of a DSLR, I think it would be a complete success.
I want a 70D with Ibis 4k no aa filter headphone or blue tooth for audio monitoring. ProRes. And clean hdmi out!! A hybrid viewfinder would be awesome!! Maybe Pentax will build this in their K-3 II!!!
I think there are two types of photographers buying cameras today- Those that shoot mirrorless now and those that will shoot mirrorless in the future. Panasonic GH4 and the Sony A6000 have overcome the main issue voiced with DSLRs vs Mirrorless--that of focusing speeds. So we can keep trying to find reason to buy the bulkier more expensive DSLR, but in the end, mirrorless will be the only choice. It's like 35mm SLR or twin lens reflexes. There will always be hold-outs, but there is also a clear winner. If Nikon and Canon would come up with a system that cooperates (including mount) with other major brands, let say like micro four thirds, or a FF mirrorless like the Sony, they would be eating a little crow, while laughing all the way to the bank! Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji and Sony all make cameras that perform great and have a huge range of options. Right now ergonomics and whether your main interest are in video or still make the difference in your mirrorless choice. Nikon could compete and they are going to have to wake up and compete in the mirrorless market if the want to survive. This is my opinion, please no nasty comments. Thanks
I don't know what Canon and Nikon should do, but I know what I like in a camera. I liked the ergonomics of my Nikon F401x and F801s mounted with 50mm f/1.8 lenses. Easy to cary, good grip, that wide instead of deep. Large viewfinder, much better and brighter than the newest Canon ?D and Nikon D?. Not too heavy, but heavy enough to give a steady shot. Durable, so I never had them in a bag, but I always had them with me for great pictures. Now I use my iPhone for that, and my pictures are not that great. Simple buttons, no hassle, just shooting pictures. For video I liked Sony DV-CAM. I had a DCR-PC103E shooting PAL. It always focused. Quickly and accurately. The sound was great, something all my DSLR, GoPro's and bullit-cam's don't have. It's like sound don't matter any more, now that people listens to crappy MP3 from smartphone speakers. And a lot of video now is a music video, using a tune instead of the sound from the recording. The DV-CAM's were quick to shift exposure when going in and out of different light situations, I had a screen, so I knew what I was recording and headphone jack so I knew what kind of audio I had. The tape's was the cheepest form of backup. That is overlooked today. Sometimes you record something, that has no meaning at the time of recording, but gives great meaning 5 years later. We don't save video any more. It craves to much harddisk space and extra backup. It was small enough to fit in a jacket pocket and there were great wide-angle lenses to mount in front. If that can be done in camera's today, I will buy them. I think Fuji get's it right soon. Or maybe Panasonic or Sony. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in the night :-)
I was an avid Leica user, but in the digital age, the weak link is the mechanical tolerance in the rangefinder system. Back-focus and front-focus mis-calibrations kill the system. It's a deal killer to have to send bodies and lenses off to Germany just so they work together. So, I switched back to Nikon (while also picking up a Sony RX1R). Here are my thoughts... With Nikon I have bought Otus and a couple of other ZF.2 lenses that give me 21-135 range in primes. Fine. With the D810, the quality is outstanding. Back to DSLR gives me the option of zoom too, and VR, which is great. But big. I like the D810 big bright OVF, and I don't like my RX1R's EVF... yet. So, where is my roadmap? The advantage of the EVF is a true view of what the sensor 'sees', along with peaking and zebras. Ultimately EVF quality may really mimic OVF, and then I won't miss OVF. Goodbye Nikon. Or, Nikon do what Jordan suggests - give me EVF, or hybrid. Ultimately, when EVF gets through another generation or two, the mirror box will be a 100% liability (shake). Keep the professional build values of the D810 / D4S, but offer a no-mirror EVF option.... or come up with their own A7-like mirrorless. But as Jordan makes the point, if you have a big Nikon lens, the big Nikkor lens is balanced, so it isn't a space/size issue. But I will predict this... if Nikon hasn't figured it out by the time Sony has a full A7 system that includes super-telephotos supported by high accurate bursts, specialty wide angles, macros, and tilt-shifts, then Nikon is Titanic. It will take a while to go down, but it will. It may yet come up with a new mount and a new mirrorless system that is serious, but in the interim it needs a a serious, viable mirrorless body for its F-mount Nikkor glass. A good discussion you guys. Just a pity it didn't end in an arm wrestle. next time...
I would love to be able to continue to use my canon flashes & lenses with Mirrorless technology. Canon & Nikon should improve on areas where Mirrorless is weak: 1. Off camera speed lights (current panasonic & olympus flashes are toys compared to top canon & nikon flashes), 2. Studio flash. It is a huge advantage to have an optical viewfinder with a lens that opens up aperture to focus when using studio flash. Try doing that with MFT - you end up looking at a black viewfinder when you're in manual mode with dim modelling lights, 3. Focus tracking for sports. I realize sony is closing the gap with DSLRs on this. So Canon & Nikon, offer Mirrorless models that work with your existing lenses & flash, but improve on every Mirrorless weakness you can think of. Your companies have the resources to do it. BTW I am currently running both Canon DSLR & MFT rigs.
I'm fine with DSLR size camera. To properly support video, they should implement a hybrid view finder that switch from prism to EVF on mirror up for video mode.
I seriously loved this segment. I was on the edge of my seat listening to the both of you talk. Here is my dilemma: I own a Fuji X100S. I hate the slow auto-focus and the fact does not focus well in low ambient light situations. On top of this, I'm in LOVE with Profoto gear, namely the B1 and B2 lighting systems. Sure, this is expensive gear and, more importantly, Profoto works only with Canon and Nikon. Doh! I'm screwed. In addition, I love mirrorless cameras and I hate how big and clumsy DSLR's are. I also would love to upgrade my Fuji to the Sony A7 series cameras, but I can't, because Profoto does not support TTL with Sony. I am held in this cruel game of waiting. Is Profoto ever going to support Fuji on Sony? Will Nikon or Canon make a mirrorless camera worthy of using Profoto equipment? There are no answers, only questions. I am but a fish caught in the net of an empty wind.
I am a fan, and I am so glad that Chris and Jordan would be so brave to ask the big question, " Why is the King naked? " I also enjoy the "between the line" where they talked about the Nikon Df, D810 and then Canon 5D mk4. That is exactly what I think about them too, Good Job !! As for the question if we need the "mirror box" and how they called the new mirror-less camera, small size camera. I just put a Nikon F3, a Nikon FM, a Sony a7R and a Sony a7S together, they are about the same size !! So, I would rather call these mirror-less camera, "the size that works, and the size that we are used to." If Nikon did listen to Chris from the 2012 X'mas video, and made the Nikon Df the size of a Nikon FM, with tools to manual focus, weather it a mirror-less or DSLR, we would not have need for this video and discussion here... In my view, unless you are so rich that you can afford the Zeiss Otus 1.4/55, the Zeiss ZE and ZF lens are the best lens for the Nikon and Canon camera, and I think they know it... that is why there is no way you can use the ZE and ZF lenses properly, even on your most expensive "pro" camera !! No manual focus tools !! and you need to micro focus tune your camera for each lens.. ? hello? I had a Zeiss ZF 2/35 and ZF 3,5/18 for my Nikon D800. And guess what I am now using? a Sony a7R !! because the D800 is wasting the lenses !! At the end, I sold the D800 to get a Sony a7S !! the one thing, I like about the Sony a7 series is that they don't mind you go back to use your old legendary lens, may it be Nikon mount, Canon mount, or Contax mount, knowing that their current FE Zeiss or G lens are just as good and much more convenience.... also at a very good price too. Last month, I went to a wedding with my Sony a7R, a 55mm f/1.8 and a 35mm f/2.8 lens. There were a few other so called "pro photographers" there as well, wearing their so called "pro camera" and a tons of long lens around their waists. You know how people like to "wear" their gears? But at the end, nothing can come close to the photos I took, sharpness wise; colour wise; and resolution wise. I think one of them was switching camera soon after.... Mind you, I had been hating Sony for the longest time since the early 1990's.. until I tried the Sony RX100. I had to say sorry to my friends, because they all hate Sony... but after looking at the quality of the photo the RX100 takes, I was down on knees. I had to put down my pride. I hope Nikon and Canon would do the same, cause like Chris and Jordan said, "Pride" is all that Nikon and Canon got left... and that will drag them to the bottom of the ocean !!
Even thou canon gets much beating for crippling cameras and selling sensors thats not good enough compared to what people wish they sold, I think they do a few things right. There is always a balance in new tech and what/when to sell it, to get the most out of it, and what is most important. Making and selling cameras tailored to specific genres like wildlife, lowlight, allrounder, landscape, streetphoto, sport etc makes for great sales. Every different forum/community will love that one camera and reccomend it to others that share same love. The 7d II are made for wildlife and sports. Buffer, crop, great af, high fps is what stands out, and thats what matters the most for sport and wildlife. 70d is for video with low budget, 1dx is a allround king and 5dIII is a lighter version of it. In my opinion they would benefit of reducing the mp on the 6d to make it a even stronger lowlight camera and introduce a landscape king! 6d has great af in lowlight and great lowlight sensor, but it could be made more spesific/stronger. And a pro landscape camera with a superb sensor and 4k vid. High DR and lowlight performance. No need for high buffer and frames per second in stills. And keep on making the top 1D cameras the great at all option.
I had the option to buy either a Olympus EM-1 or Canon 70d, I choose the 70d because of the lens selection, but I wanted the EM-1 more. I think Nikon should make a kick butt 4/3 camera like the EM-1 (mini Df), and Canon needs to take the amazing 70d censor and put it into an Eos-M body with two more dials, bigger battery, give away the adapter for the rest of canon's SLR lenses, and it would fly off the shelves quicker than the Fuji XT1 did. Either way Canon and Nikon, JUST DO SOMETHING. Good episode Chris and Jordan!
The problem for me as an event photographer is and always has been; I shoot five to six hundred photos per event. mostly in badly lit tungsten carbide of fluorescent light conditions. Run and gun. I need a low light camera that focuses every time in poor lighting conditions. Since the d700 no camera has met my needs. Albeit that the new d810 hold promises that are yet to be realized I found the the d600 d610 to be woefully inadequate. The d800 d800e both had problems from the get go. Here is my perfect camera. Full frame mirrorless 24-28 mp sensor with a huge bright hybrid viewfinder, native ISO of 50 extremely good at 6000-12,000 ISO that shoots at least 6-7 fps. As many cross type sensors as you can pack into the sensor. A sturdy flip and turn 3.5 inch screen that is touch sensitive, with wireless connectivity and while we are at it throw in a wireless trigger system. High speed sync to 320, shutter speeds up to 1/8000.Package that to fit all my pro glass at a equal weight of the new.d800 and I would be in.with both guns blazing.
Olympus could be a kind of a role model für both Canon and Nikon. In a positive as well as in a negative way. Oly did the switch from a DSLR system (Olympus E) to a mirrorless System a few years ago, without changing sensor size. I think its quite obvious what worked and what didnt with the switch: - The mft cameras are amazing - but they were not when mft started. Until the E-M5 they didnt have a real replacement for a DSLR. - The lenses can be adapted but it has always been a quirky thing. Its getting better, but still the transition was NOT smooth. For a new system without a mirror box, smaller lenses are possible and should be constructed. I think it is okay to leave behind the old cameras in that they wont support the new lenses. But using an adapter and a hybrid focussing system to allow the new cameras to support the old lenses should be posible. Thats what they should be doing: - hybrid focussing system - a (working!) way to adapt old lenses - get rid of the mirror box in the long run, maybe make a transition model that has a mirror box and a hybrid viewfinder I see absolutely no reason why anone would stick with a mirror when buying a new camera today. Picture quality has NOTHING to do with whether you have a mirror in there or not,its all about the sensor and lens. And with the new EVFs which really deliver on the old promise (D)SLRs dont really fulfill, namely WYSIWYG, why stick to such a backward system?
Chris, Jordan,... you're basically saying that Canon and Nikon should make thier own version of a K-01, but without the compromises in the K-01's shipped firmware. (And possibly with an adapter or variable flange distance mechanism.) Have you guys played with it with the current firmware? And do read what we've boiled down to for the necessary firmware changes on the PentaxForum, as CaNikon would need to include those too.
The more mirror less cameras I'm seeing, the more I want one. I'm tired of carrying my SLRs and sometimes I settle just for an iPhone pic because I know it's just images to share socially. I've made a compromise and started carrying a rebel body with a 50 plastic 1.8 lens, and yea that sucks. I'm considering getting the pan-cake 40mill lens just to have a smaller form factor, which will make it easier to carry my camera around. I think SLRs have their place, and when I'm dong a paid gig, I use my 6D and have no prob with that. But like most photogs, I like to take my camera everywhere, but it seems so inconvenient when I see other shooters with their Leicas and other mirror-less options. There's a market for mirror-less full frame, Canon needs to embrace it, and jump ahead of the comp with touch screens, wifi capabilities and maybe even some in camera app options.
the Sony A7 with metabones and a canikon prime is tiny and awesome. I've had a few photogs go from FF DSLRs to M43/FF/Fujifilm and are content simply because it's not as damn heavy.
Chris, the size thing is not a problem, no need to make things so tiny, they won't be much better (or better at all) to hold and operate. It's better to make cameras good to hold for photographers, and let people alter the ergonomics for when you're doing a lot of video. I agree with Jordan here. And the Pentax K-01 is not as bad as you say, it's great image quality, great build quality, but horrible video quality, yes manual settings, but the video has no details. Should have had a viewfinder, but the LCDVF worked pretty well for me.
In a nutshell: 1) Photographers want large sensors & more pixels (like D800, 5DMiii, etc.) 2) Videographers want fast sensors & 4K (like GH4, A7s, BlackMagic, etc.) 3) ALL want a lower price point 4) WINNER for Photography? Canon & Nikon 5) WINNER for Videography? Sony & Panasonic If you could give me a hybrid of the GH4 & the A7s (large sensor, internal 4K, in a compact body, fast AF) I'd buy it. Of course I'm speaking more from a videographers point of view.
I had a Nikon DSLR, but after a summer of sailing, cycling and hiking up mountains I knew I needed something smaller that still took better pictures than a compact like a Canon G. I got a NEX-6 and ended up selling the DSLR because it just does everything as well for half the size. Having made that switch I can't imagine going back to optical viewfinders either - anyone who goes into a shop and looks down a Fuji XT-1 EVF will understand. At the point of switch I was a 'Nikon user' - there were three DX Nikon DSLRs in the house. Had there been a compact Nikon mirrorless available with decent DX lens compatablilty (autofocus adaptor, even if that would cost $100 and mimic the flange bulk) it would have been extremely hard for another manufacturer to get my business. Since Nikon had nothing to offer me, I went Sony, and 7 e-mount lenses later Nikon have lost a good paying customer and Sony have got an invested user (provided they can bring themselves to release an A7000 but that's another story). I would love to meet someone from Nikon, just so I could tell them 'look, I wanted to stick with you guys, I really did, you could have had my money but you turned it down'.
What Should Canon and Nikon Do? I think this discussion will be of wonderful, if DigitalRevTv and camerastore team up together and make a discussion video about it !.
I think Nikon has the right idea for mirrorless at this point in time. I bought into the 1 system when it came out and I like how it's grown. It's not a "pro" solution, but as far as I can tell mirrorless tech isn't really there yet in comparison to DSLR's. So, by keeping the sensor small and thereby keeping the glass small it's a great system for people wanting more than their cell phone camera but not wanting the bulk of a DSLR. For the pro's who want top quality, they are better off sticking to the DSLR's anyway. Sony and Fuji have shown that big sensors in little cameras can be done, but neither offer a full package.
Also canon and nikon should add peaking and zebra with custom color selection for the peaking to their new semi pro or even full pro mirrorless bodies.
TheCameraStoreTV its so embarrassing, that they do the salami tactics... Zebra, peaking and changeable audio levels into the nikon during recording. Even canon can do it :-)
Fionn-Gorilla with nikon, its kind of understandable since they release new models much quicker than canon and they often update the entire lineup. So they will try and keep one or two features saved for the next iteration but canon has no real excuse. They should have had both peaking and zebra on the 70d.
I had always thought that Nikon went the wrong way with the Series 1. How about a Series 2? A mirrorless camera system with a DX or FX sensor but with a new series of lenses designed around a shorter lens mount to film plane distance. Then all that's needed for people like me who has a significant investment in lenses is to get an adapter that would allow me to use any lens that I currently own with this camera. Small and compact when used with native lenses designed to work with this system and yet still retaining the backwards compatibility that Nikon is famous for.
I think you guys hit the nail on the head. With Canon in-particular, it's a combination of pride and not wanting to eat into the DSLR sales. It's quite ironic because the very fact they are doing nothing in the mirrorless market (EOS-M is a joke as it currently stands) means they are losing DSLR sales. I wonder what it will take for them both to swallow their pride and get their head out of the sand. I think part of the problem is that the EOS-M series and Nikon 1 series are doing quite well in Japan (last time I checked), so there's less incentive for them to 'rock the boat'.
I've been waiting forever for Canon and Nikon to make mirrorless cameras in the same quality-range as Sony have done with NEX (or Alpha now) and the A7-series. I feel like Sony is really on to something with these systems, but the reason why I am still reluctant to buy is the extremely limited selection of lenses, without using an adapter. Especially when it comes to 3rd party lens makers like Sigma, that is making so many high quality lenses with their new art-series. My dream camera would be something like an A7, with 2x the battery life, touch screen (mostly for live view focus), sensor shift stabilizer and the lens selection that Canon and Nikon has, without having to use and adaptor. I've been extremely close to getting an A7 but it still feels like something in the beta-stage. They are definately on to something, but I think they need to advance one or two generations with the camera bodies, and more lenses need to be available without adaptors, especially from companies like Tamron and Sigma. I really wish that Canon and Nikon would get into this market as well, as competition is always good for pushing the boundaries, and it would probably encourage the 3rd party lens makers to get into the mirrorless lens market if they have the biggest brands there to make products for.
I agree with Jordan, I don't need a smaller Canon body but I want to put my EF lenses directly onto a mirrorless body that has all the features of an SLR. I'm already noticing many long-time Canon shooters selling up and buying mirrorless, mainly Fujifilm. If Canon don't stem the flow soon, they may find themselves with a decreasing market share.
i don't care what they'll do. i sold my 5DII and 5 lenses. Bought a Panasonic GH4 with two X-lenses and a new Mac Pro 8-core for the money and i must say; i couldn't be happier ! I have tons of fun with the GH4. Brilliant video quality and who cares about that little edge in quality over mirror-less regarding stills. Color correct people !! That edge is a lot smaller than you expect, believe me !
I want Nikon to make a full frame version of the GH4 with 70D style focus technology, short flange distance for people who want to use it with whatever proprietary compact lenses they want to build for it. AND a full featured adapter that would allow you to use good ole' standard Nikon lenses (the ones with stepping motors in them anyway, Nikon has those, right?) with proper autofocus and whatnot. Can that really be that hard for them? Maybe... Lol Or maybe the 5DMkIV will do all of that except the short flange distance -- like Jordan mas trying to say I think... Remind me again why we need mirror boxes? Seriously I'm drawing a blank on what the advantage is these days.
I would really like to see Canon use their Radio trigger system and implement a completely enclosed flash studio system, I grew up using Canons and so once I brought together my lens and body system and started using strobes and all that, I started buying third party gear and stopped caring about Canon products... the new 600EX-RT came out? I already have studio strobes, and I have pocket wizards, Chinese triggers, skyports for my Elinchrom lights. What I WANT to see... Canon triggers, or better yet, built in triggers... the 600EX-RT with modifiers built specifically for flash heads by Canon. I wanna see in-menu flash controls... Because I found myself spending up to $4000 on Elinchrom lights, stands, modifiers and battery packs so I can shoot outdoor weddings... I don't need all that power... but imagine taking a few small Canon flash units, for half the price and 10% of the weight and size and I can do the same job. My point is, what Canon and Nikon are missing out on is - if they want to rule the SLR world, then RULE it - not just with bodies and lenses, but with SYSTEMS. You have Nikons and want to start shooting studio or flash? Stay in the family. The offerings by both companies leave a lot to be desired (not in terms of power) but in terms of useability. Im actually excited Canon implemented radio triggers in their own units now. Its a small thing but its super important for someone like me who does a lot of outdoor photo sessions, and the price of an Elinchrom light, stand, modifier, battery pack is more than double the price of a Canon flash with the same extras and for about the same gain number as some expensive strobes... I would like to see more from that.
Even something as small as adding in 50p @1080 would help the cause, sick of being stuck with 720p for slow mo on my 5D mk iii when an old go pro trumps it.... Hell my iPhone does better slo-mo...
Great video, as every TCS upload! One thing you guys missed to touch on : The threat from Sony, which is innovating at a faster pace! I think Canon/Nikon should take a leaf from what Sony did with A7/A7R/A7s - Create a full frame in a mirrorless body, but retain their lens mounts (something that Sony failed to do) and keep the pricing towards $1200-$1500. I can imagine Canon Full frame mirrorless body with Pancake lens and it will be an impulse buy for me!
Mirrorless is a good move. You can adapt almost any other lens mount to a mirrorless mount. I also want to see more in their cinema line like a cinema camera with their full frame sensor or one that shoots 2k Raw or 4k internally, like a C400 or C600.
The variable flange distance idea is a good one. To kind of be flexible in using F-mount lenses and newer lighter mirrorless ones. In the DSLR category the Df was a good idea, although it came out half-assed in my opinion. It should have had a bigger and birghter viewfinder rather than the adaptation of the D800/e incorporated. Also Nikon should have included different focusing screens (especially with the price they charged for the Df) that help with manual focusing better and not 3rd party ones that cut down the amount of light entering, but a legit Nikon made screen for it.
Have not switched to mirrorless because of the lack of available lenses, plus hesitant about the smallish formfactor (big hands). I guess the idea of just taking the mirrorbox out and switching to EVF is not that silly....
I enjoyed the show, but I also agree with the premise that it would be better to build a system that allows for use (minus the adapter) of the current gear that has been invested in, rather stayed totally from scratch. Btw, photography is still an art that requires light and a "tool" to paint that light in order to create great art and knowledge for using it! Whether you're using a pin hole camera or a Hasselblad, find what's best for your situation! Once last thought, but apparently the 5 Mark I I wasn't so bad, since a entire Season of House was shot using it! Gear heads sometimes lean on technology more than the art, which is why the perception is that cameras no take pictures rather than people! IMO
I agree with Jordan, same fantastic Nikon bodies (with a rotating lcd screen) with a hybrid style EVF, a simple switch and you can choose if you'd like an optical or electronic viewfinder.
Canon should make a mirrorless camera that is: - high end (high end features, IQ, etc...) - compact - inexpensive - looks nice (rangefinder style???) - supports traditional lenses via an inexpensive adapter - has at least 10 native lenses sony is already doing this... and they are having A LOT of success.
I don't need a mirror-less system or a smaller/lighter body either. The 5D III is pretty much perfect for me. But I wish Canon could improve the dynamic range of their SLR sensors by a f-stop or two.
Cool discussion. Couldn't help but think of Pentax in this also, as they seem to be along the same lines as the main two. For me the lack of competitive video implementation is really hurting the big names. As magic lantern has shown, these guys are already producing decent hardware, they just need to make better use of it with their software. Mirrorless with official autofocus capable adapters seems the most sensible way to allow users to keep their existing lens investments. And the speed booster option is a winner also, if official provided also...
I have a 5D Mark III, I don't see myself switching to a new camera after 2 years. I'm waiting to see what comes out in a year or 2. I would like a compact A7 or similar full frame but I want the matching compact lenses for it. Makes no since from a photography standpoint to put DSLR lenses on a compact body.
I've been shooting Photos and Videos on my Canon T3i for 5 years and I hacked it with Magic Lantern 2 years ago. As much as i love my T3i, its been incredibly good to me, I just can't keep going with Canon. Especially ever since the GH4 came out theres no reason for me to stay with Canon.
i'm a nikon user and what i think that is a pain in the ass with most of the nikon bodies is that you can't change your aperture while filming video and not seeing a preview result in lv... it's ok if you have a lot of D, Ais or older lenses, but GG G lenses
Chris, when Canon or Nikon create a mirror-less body that can use fast lenses with a full frame sensor then I'm all in. Smaller sensors just can't print large images right out the box like FF can; nor produce the same BOKEH as fast FF glass. Show me a mirror-less combo that can produce the same spectrum of image characteristics like the 5D3/1DX or D810/D4s with an 50 or 85mm f1.2 or f1.4 and we'll talk, but you can't other than the Sony's A7's. You just can't get a smaller lens to duplicate what a larger diameter lens can, it's simple physics, bigger diameter more light gathering, smaller less light. And, some of us don't have girly hands or want tinny cameras, we have big hands...and enjoy using, having at the ready, all settings, more freedom to create, not limited.
Great topic! It's not just the mirrorless dilemma but as Stu Maschwitz likes to say, 'are these companies giving us all they can?' The answer is obviously no. For example, think of a Canon camera out of the box and then think of it with Magic Lantern turned on. Cameras are just tech in a box and their tech right now isn't as good as it should be.
Yay Jordan! Give me an FX sensor F-mount mirrorless body with articulating touch display and an excellent EVF. Do a DX version for a lower entry price. On-sensor phase-detect is the future with full image area coverage. The lenses to cover the format aren't going to get significantly smaller or lighter with a new mount. And while Nikon's at it, fill in the missing DX range equivalents for folks who see that format as a sweet spot.
NIKON/CANON should come out with full frame mirrorless camera, like the Sony 7 series. Modern age equivalent of classic LEICA M. Offer an entry level 12mp model around $1000. Most people who have lots of NIKON/CANON /Contax/Zeiss/Pentax/LEICA/etc lenses will buy a body to fit their old/new/other brand lenses with adapters. I have NIKON DSLRs and I have manual Contax/Zeiss lenses that will not fit NIKON DSLRs even with adapters (due to the depth of the mirror box) . Mirrorless will not have such a problem due to the lack of the mirror box. All other brand of lenses can be used with adapters. Like SONY did NIKON/CANON can make an adapter for their current AF lenses that is fully functional. I think it is a matter of time before they bow to market pressure, or let SONY/FUJI eat their lunch !!!
I agree with Jordan. I think the future is mirrorless in a DSLR form factor, utilizing everyone's vast pre-existing investment in lenses and accessories.
What they should do: 1- Stop castrating cameras (Olympus m43 systems barely cripples their line) 2- The idea of fast contrast detect on dSLR is close to impossible, the lenses clearly weren't made for that kind of AF system in mind and yes, phase detection on a body of 20mp+ is terrible. I have no idea where AF system are headed for dSLR, I have to shoot closed down all the time to get something out. 3- Magic Lantern in itself is proof that Canon doesn't give a F... to its mid-to-low userbase. Both of them should push camera firmwares to a more modern way to support "manual focus", live view assist modules, optical viewfinder assist modules 4- interchangeable viewfinder screen for all bodies.
Nikon did one thing that is probably one of the most revolutionary thing with the D810: they promised a SDK (software developer kit). (for programmers to develop apps for the d810) But the problem is, they didn't released it yet and probably they will neglect it. As they did with video in the nikon d90... Nobody needs an "unofficial" magic latern if there is an official SDK! So please, camera manufacturer, release SDKs and let us develop apps. Just look what apps did to the smartphone industry. Back in the old days with Nokias, there were no apps (at least for the mainstream) and the phones were not so capable... Apps are incredible!
Great video. Fun conversation with good points. You could argue Canon's EF-M system and Nikon's V system were the same as Canon dumping FD and going EOS. To your point they were just copying others and didn't put heart into it, likely to protect their DSLR's.
You guys should seriously have your own reality show or discovery channel show about photography and it's industry. Whether u both agree or disagree about how the industry and some companies should more forward in the future, u guys are THE BEST informative and entertaining photography hosts I've ever seen. Everything I've done and purchased for my life and business came from your thumbs up or thumbs down. Much appreciated, always!
Thanks Thomas! You keep watching, we'll keep trying to keep it fun and informative!
Jordan @ TCSTV
and these guys keep it so real. They don't try to protect certain brands just to push sales at their store. They honestly tell you which brands they think are under-performing and aren't afraid to bash cameras that deserve it. Awesome!
I think you already said what would be the winner option.
Create a highend mirrorless camera that out of the box can support the whole existing lenses, no one would buy a sony or a fuji if he is already heavily invested in Canon gear and can re purpose the gear he already owns.
Very well said. I agree totally!
I dont get this at all ! . just any current high end DSLR in liveview mode is exactly what you and the guy in the Vid is suggesting. seems so redundent we already have that functionality what extra does it does it give us? an EVF?
tobi foong the point is having a much smaller body and faster focus. if you can use your old lenses then you can transition without a huge expense. The era of huge DSLR bodies is over. Only specialized PROs need the D4s and 1DX and such. the rest of us prefer to carry something like the sony a6000 in size.
I don't think a tiny mirrorless camera would work with big lenses, there's this thing called physics which people seem to be forgetting about.
***** Don't agree with you at all about "Only specialized PROs need the D4s and 1DX and such. the rest of us prefer to carry something like the sony a6000 in size."
You guys have, by far, the best camera reviews on UA-cam. Great discussions and field tests with entertaining personalities while still being really informative. Keep up the awesome work!
What should Canon and Nikon do? Make all their cameras waterproof. ALL OF THEM.
Who cares what they do, as long as Fuji keeps kicking ass.
1. Pentax has weather sealed cameras. They still cannot crack Canon/Nikon dominance.
2. Fujifilm has one weather sealed camera. At the same time Fujifilm has lousy video despite being a mirrorless camera. Also, all sales of Fujifilm combined are barely a blip on Canon's radar.
Here are some problems with mirrorless cameras (and I have been mirrorless for quite a while):
3. Lenses are overpriced. They use a lot less glass than Canon/Nikon FF offerings, yet within the range of what most people buy, C/N's lenses are cheaper and better made.
4. Video is not consistent. Panasonic and Sony implements good video. Fuji and Olympus do not (Canon's 70D beats any that those two brands offer despite being an SLR).
5. As soon as you get to APS-C size, longer bright lenses (if you can find any, good luck) weight the same as SLR's lenses, and weight and size advantage disappears. In fact, with less ergonomic and smaller bodies, there is now an imbalance.
6. Most people still prefer an optical viewfinder.
What I would love to see is Panasonic G7 (same exact form factor as G6) but with GH4 sensor. Alas, Panasonic purposely crippled G6 with an old sensor and thus killed the camera. Now there are rumors the G line is dead. I don't want GH*. Way too big and heavy. Might as well get a Nikon D7100 or similar. Video does not matter that much to me.
***** uses the word "ignorant" in an ignorant statement. Ironic.
mountainhobo
1. Waterproof is not weather sealed. It means taking it under water and maintaining functionality. See the AW1 for an example of a waterproof camera.
2. What the christ does it matter what Fuji's sales are? They kick ass because of the products they release and the support they provide to their customers.
3., 4., 5. How did my statement make you think I was debating the benefits of mirrorless vs. DSLRs?
6. Evidence? Of all the pictures being taken these days, I'm willing to put money on Live View being the overwhelming method used for composition. Does that make Live View better? No, of course not, but that doesn't mean it's not true.
As far as the rest of your reply goes, I'm confused as to why it's even a reply to my comment.
tgmwright "As far as the rest of your reply goes, I'm confused as to why it's even a reply to my comment."
Not just in that respect, I think.
"What the christ does it matter what Fuji's sales are?"
I see. It kicks ass, just doesn't sell much. Got it.
You advise Canon and Nikon to do something, supposedly similar to Fujifilm (NOT Fuji) - because Fujifilm "kicks ass". Guess what, Canon and Nikon are businesses, and quite successful. You want them to take a loss so they can "kick ass"? That's hobby, not business.
mountainhobo Did you watch the same video I did? I don't remember hearing anything about being limited to "fiscally responsible decisions" we'd like Nikon and Canon to make.
Dropping "film" at the end of Fujifilm probably isn't going to confuse anyone reading my comment. The guys in the video even refer to the company as "Fuji", and I'm fairly certain they weren't talking about the mountain, so get the fuck down from your soap box.
And if you're really going to dispute FujiFILM's current lineup being a design success and their kickassery because they're not selling as many units as Nikon and Canon, you're probably the same moron who thinks Apple's computers don't "kick ass" because of their small market share in the consumer and corporate world. Good luck making that argument.
Now, sit down.
I hope these "After Dark" shows continue. This topic in particular is very interesting and much needed. So far, the average Joe would still pick up a Canon or Nikon because of the name, but people with more knowledge about recent innovations have been moving elsewhere (even if they still have a Canon or Nikon, too). I've owned non-professional Nikon and Canon cameras, and I loved them at the time (and still love them)...but even 4 years ago, when the Sony A55/A33 and NEX 5/3 came out, I knew that things were changing. (The development of micro four-thirds by Panasonic and Olympus was also a milestone.) I became a fan of Sony years before buying a Sony. (I now have a Sony A77 Mark II.) I wish their NEX-like series had in-body image stabilization. If they had that, then I'd definitely get one in the future. As things are, Olympus has some interesting cameras, even if they have slightly smaller sensors. I'm not sure what kind of mirrorless I'd get. However, just with SLR-style cameras, the Sony A77 Mark II has amazing autofocus and beautiful image quality. It also has "Eye Autofocus" and a slew of other features. For a job, I used a Canon DSLR and I hate that in "live view" mode, the focusing is so slow. (It's not the dual-pixel one, though, so newer Canon cameras might be better.) I hate having "live view" work differently from the "viewfinder" mode. With my Sony, I'm blown away, and I feel that it is the best APS-C camera out there (and I prefer APS-C to full-frame anyway). I do hope you do a review on the A77 Mark II soon.
Yes, Sony ar eputting out some great stuff lately. I tested out the A6500 at a photography show recently and it rocks! Very fast AF, good EVF, great tracking and burst mode. I just bought a Sony HX400V bridge camera (mainly for wildlife) which is lovely so far. The images are sharp and colours lovely (it has a Zeiss lens) reaching to 1200mm (equiv) optical zoom and fits in a small bag with all my filters, batteries & tiny Sony microphone for if want to shoot video too-great little set-up.
Unfortunately the fuel that drives innovation has traditionally come from pocket cameras. With every young person now having a quality P&S camera already built into their phone, that income well has dried up....
I agree, and not just "young" people! I'm holding of buying the Sony rx 100 iii until a few weeks when the new Samsung note4 is announced. Spec should be at least 16mp, image stabilised, shoot 4k video and have a 2k screen display. ..hello! ! sure, it won't have that extra bit of zoom reach or the fast 2.8 but with the awesome camera and photo apps out there now I can produce an image that's very close! So, now I need I MF sensor in a small body that can shoot 7fps and do 4k video. ...Thanks ;-)
Jaime Loyola No offence, but the next Samsung I guarantee will not match up to the RX100MK3. There will be no 1-inch sensor, no Zeiss lens that zooms, not to mention at a constant f/2.8 aperture. The quality difference will be huge. 4K and 2K display has nothing to do with the final product of the image.
Yeah until pocket cameras and cellphones start coming with an adjustable lens and all sorts of other features that pros have I don't see the market for pro cameras going south that quickly.
TimothyLawTV it will be no match in terms of IQ, but considering that he can shoot decent image quality or footage, edit it on the same device and upload it fast using the same device, watch it on the same device and share it with others on the same device, phones are becoming dominant.
One of the reasons I bought a mirrorless camera was the drastically smaller body and lens size. The best camera isn't the one with the best image quality, it's the one that's on you most often. A mirrorless is far more portable than a clunky DSLR...
good chat interesting to see where both companies go now. I agree that the C series video camera are probably a bit out of reach for the users who used t2i and t3i for video, the problem is for the money they're not that advanced, certainly when the higher end C models start to fringe on the price brackets of great video cameras like the F5 etc.
Do you visit the Photokina?
Nikon and canon need to do massive repricing and refreshing of their product line in order to adjust for the changes in camera technology. completely get rid of the 1/2.3 inch sensor cameras. replace that line with $200 or less micro 4/3 sensor cameras (micro 4/3 cameras have a very low BOM cost in the $100 range). This will bring back the entry level market from the smartphones.
For the people looking for more, sell more reasonably priced APS-C sensor DSLR's ($300-500 range for cameras at the level of the D7100. then for full frame, Price them starting at around $700 for something at the level of the D610, and go up from there.
Aside from most professionals, the vast majority of the market is comprised of people who are more basic and would like better quality but are perfectly willing to settle for a smartphone camera if they cannot get a camera with far better quality for a more reasonable price. They just have to accpet that the sub $1000 market will no longer net them a 500%+ profit margin if they want to sell many cameras.
I agree with you but the camera companies like to charge the max customers will be willing be pay even if that is more than what the majority will pay.
Pricing cameras based on the BOM cost ignores all the cost of doing business such as design, manufacturing costs, offices, advertising, logistics etc. A D610 for $700 is completely unprofitable, no matter how many they sell.
cheng2006 well what is the use if the future is not bright for them and smartphones are becoming better.
EOS M with dual pixel
Nikon ff Mirrorless with new mount, but has to come with AF enabled F mount adapters.
In 2014 the optical autofocus phase detection of dSLR cameras was amazing but the electronic hybrid autofocus of mirrorless had began to be very competitive even for professional work.
In 2014 the domination of mirrorless cameras wasn't clear yet.
Will you be at Photokina in september?
can we get an update of this video for 2016?
why don't can/nik make a full frame mirrorless like A7RII with a version of the LA-EA4 to keep their glass useable? imagine if they shipped mirrorless full frame bodies packaged with an adapter as standard?
This video is as relevant as ever today. I can't believe you uploaded this in 2014!!
The solution is simple. Canon and Nikon should build compact mirrorless camera bodies with the same mounts that they use today but with short flange distances, for compactness. Each body would have what amounts to a telecentric optical system that would allow focus with their current DSLR lenses. This optical system could be designed for easy toolless removal so as new mirrorless lenses are designed, maximum optical benefit could be achieved. One benefit of optics in the body would include significantly easier cleaning, and what dust remained would of little consequence - like dust on a lens' front element, it is not generally noticeable on the final image.
I repair Canon lenses for a living here in Oz.
Q-what camera do I use? A-Fuji X system.
I think that says a lot about what Canon has to offer in the mirrorless market.
Canon and Nikon have been way cautious in protecting there DSLR market by producing crap mirror less shit box cameras,in my opinion anyway.
You guys came up with some great ideas over a few beers,maybe you should send a crate or 2 over to Japan,you never know it might work for them as well.
OK. You can shoot video at 4K with for example the Panasonic GH-4 when is there going to be a HDTV or a computer screen available to display that kind of resolution?
will you be at photokina in cologne ?
Isn't it possible to reduce the flange distance and increase the sensor size at the same time to make something like the Sony A7 with regular apsc lenses?
Next big thing? Maybe a mirrorless with an integrated (or just optional) Speedbooster that works with current lenses + a new line of lenses, for everybody who doesn't allready have lenses from Canon/Nikon or wants a smaller lens.
I have been sitting on the sidelines for almost a year to see how this all plays out. Bottom line, all the innovation and forward thinking is happening with mirrorless. DSLR still has full-frame nailed (and a slight but ever-shrinking lead in focus and low-light performance) but for anything short of a full pro setup they are losing ground.
It's almost like they had a meeting and decided how to carve up the market. Sony made a big splash with their full-frame models and is relying on brand recognition (and Zeiss glass) for the mass-market appeal. Panasonic decided to go after broadcast-quality video where many think they now rival the "big boys". Olympus went for focus and burst speed stats combined with DSLR/SLR looks. Fuji decided to focus (unavoidable pun) on image quality and rangefinder retro backed with some pretty amazing lenses. Fuji took that one step further by coming out with the X100, the S and now T. I know over a dozen pros who are using this as a backup and for street shooting. This got them more integrated and accepting of the mirrorless format. Brilliant strategy.
Canon and Nikon are in a pickle. Continue with their "circle the wagons" approach will only lead to further erosion. (Sorry guys, but incremental improvements just aren't cutting it anymore) Push whatever boundaries remain (for DSLR) will move them further away from the entry and enthusiast level. Jump on board with mirrorless and they will be seen as followers not leaders... and that is exactly what they should do until their superior resources allow them to catch and pass the competition. Or abandon the low and mid-range end of the market and throw everything at full-frame and video. What am I going to do? After giving serious consideration to the D7100 my order for an X-E2 went in a few days ago. That sweet 18-55 "kit" lens combined with the awesome primes and this ridiculous new 50-140 continuous f/2.8 coming out means this system and format are on the move and only getting better.
Remember, the best camera is the one you have with you.
What should Canon and Nikon do. Hmmm. Thom Hogan has a lot of great ideas so I'm gonna steal a few.
- Here's an original. Make an native mount mirrorless body, and come out with some lenses that have optical elements in the space that would have been occupied by the mirror box.
- Beef up your DX lens maps. No reason for Fujifilm to have beat you to the punch in like 2 years of their mirrorless cameras' existence. Fast wide primes and some fast, high quality zooms with IS and all that good stuff.
- Drastically improve workflow. Novices (like me) sometimes want to get pics from our cameras to FB or IG as quickly as possible. Professionals NEED to get pictures back to servers as quickly as possible
- Make sequels to the 7D and D300s... the guys with them on DPReview won't shut up about wanting them and they have money for them.
- Make a no-frills FX body under $1000. It should have video and WiFi and all that, but it should be made to pull noob consumers (like me!) into the FX fold. Bonus points if it's mirrorless. Canon would have the leg up here with their OSPDAF (though with Sony making Nikon's sensors they are pretty much neck and neck).
- Get out of the compact camera game and into the cameraphone game. Use Android as the OS and get ahead of the curve with sensor array technologies. I think it takes 9 1/2.3" sensors to add up to the area of a DX sensor (something like that). They could boost the light transmission by having sensors only focus on collecting 1 color or just luminance or just focus, etc.Lot of potential there.
There's so much they can do. They are stuck in the 90s with their progression and workflow. They both kind of need to upend their whole strategies and get with the times.
What'S your opinion about Lytro?
what would be cool is for canon to build a panasonic gh4 style mirrorless camera. It would be a canon rebel style body with modern 70d/t5i sensor, evf, twist flip lcd, side sd card slot, etc. Plus hoping the cheaper plastic rebel body is gonna be cheaper to make than the eos m metal body.
Then later down the road, canon could extend the cinema line by adding ef-m mount on the cinema cameras. The shorter flange distance will allow for better adoption of legacy lenses.
The mount should be continued as the existing lenses are very good. Basically, people want a better canon mirrorless body.
As far as nikon is concerned, they need to move from the 1 system to a apsc system with a shorter flange distance mount. Then an adapter to adapt nikon slr glass. The tech behind the nikon 1 system can be used to improve the apsc nikon mirrorless.
Also, NOTE to others, that please dont have an expensive add-on EVF for their future bodies unless it will be included in the kit.
So you ask what should Nikon and Canon do? I'm ready to dump my D700 as soon as a comparable mirrorless system enters the market. But it has to give me the same quality images, it has to have 3-4 lenses to go with it (or allow me to use my Nikkor lenses). But most importantly: it has to allow me to control it with the ease I can now control my Nikon without ever moving the camera from my eye. No important controls on a touch screen, thank you. And I don't know if I could live without a viewfinder. What am I saying? Of course I couldn't live without a viewfinder. I am looking for something light that would at the same time allow me to downgrade my sturdy tripod to something less heavy as well.
I would like a canon 7D mkii with the focus system of the 70D. Also 4K video. 96fps. New processor and No AA filter.
I am not to difficult!
Variable flange mount is the key- offer new smaller lenses for new smaller bodies and use the variation to use the current DSLR lenses for those who opt to.
whats about the pentax Q System?
You have a new small System with new Lenses and also the posibillity to use the big K-Mount lenses.
Isn't that what you want?
I absolutely agree with two of your points regarding Nikon. First-> Make a variable flange distance mirrorless camera design for compatibility with existing DX and FX Nikkors without an adapter*. Second-> If Nikon makes this mirrorless camera an all-magnesium, X-T1 / FM2 style body done the right way(not like a Df) with good AF, MF and video Nikon would sell a ton of them. I would also add one more important idea that I have. If Nikon added in-body image stabilization to this camera then you would have VR on every Nikkor lens ever made!! Think about it. All of your 20+ year old Nikkor AI-S lenses would now be image stabilized! And even your newer AF and AF-S lenses without VR would now be stabilized. That would be awesome!!! (*Note: Nikon could emulate the pop-out lens design of the old Rollei TE 35mm pocket camera for the variable flange distance mechanism.)
When the next-gen curved Sensor technology becomes big, the lenses will be simpler to design, smaller and cheaper to produce. Hopefully, this will appear at Photokina
Great discussion! I am not a pro but agree big time with Jordan! I use a Canon 6D with quite a few mid-line lenses and shoot 80/20% photo/video. I actually love the body size and ergonomics, especially compared to my GH2, but would greatly appreciate the advantages mirrorless could bring. If canon could put in a good EVF and have decent contrast-detect focusing with face detection and focus peaking and a tilt-touch screen, I'd upgrade in a heartbeat. Maybe call it a 6M and improve wi-fi while they're at it. If I had this camera I would also be quicker to upgrade my 50/1.8 lens to a 50L.
This is why I am very intrigued by the Samsung NX1. If the execution is good and has useable ISO 6400 and they add some f/1.4 lenses in a useful range in the next year, I could see me dropping Canon.
You guys have the best photo/video channel, thanks for keeping me entertained.
"If you don't cannibalize yourself, someone else will," - Steve Jobs
From Nikon & Canon? A digital rangefinder with an M-Mount.
Now, that I would jump on in a heartbeat, provided Nikon and Canon made lenses for them. There is no way I can justify Leica prices.
Exactly what I was thinking. Leica need some real competition.
I'm still shooting my d200 its old and heavy. I want something new but nothing appeals to me yet . No D400 the D610 is not what I want maybe the new full frame that will be announced in September will be what I'm looking for. I also need a lighter system. I just got back from a hike into the mountains and I must be getting old I all most died carrying heavy gear I need a light camera hiking system any ideas?
This was a terrific conversation guys and something I think all of us videographers and photographers are thinking about. I own the Canon 70D and recently upgraded my lens to the Canon 24-70mm L series ii lens. The addition of this very expensive lens (way more expensive than the camera itself!) gave me the best possible images from this camera. I am a vocal coach and use the camera to film my students in performances as well as youtube tutorials that I am producing. The camera is terrific, especially in terms of auto-focus. But the fact that Canon seems to have purposely left a head-phone jack off the camera is just ludicrous!!
The "suits" at Canon must be Hell-bent on forcing customs to purchase their C-100, 300 and 500 series, yet they are completely over-looking the semi-professional market. I am tempted to "jump ship" and head on over to Panasonic for the GH4. But, I am hoping against hope that the "suits" at Canon will get it together and give us tight budgeted video guys everything we want and love about Canon!
It will be very interesting to see what happens to GH4 sales if an active Speed Booster for EF lenses came out...
Jordan @ TCSTV
TheCameraStoreTV And now that Metabones has announced one, things just got more difficult for Canon.
Jordan @ TCSTV
Coming from someone who went from a nikon system (D800, and some 2.8 glass) to the sony NEX system, I think they should meet in the middle between the A7 series and the GH4. I'm actually thinking about going back to DSLR's (which will be stupidly expensive), and the reason is purely ergonomics. Without the real-estate on the body itself, its very hard to make a camera that is easy to hold and use all day long. Going into the menus to change common settings (autofocus settings, bracketing etc) is annoying. And yes you can customize buttons on the outside, but it's very cramped and you can't pick up any other camera and just use it without customizing it. It doesn't help that Sony's menus are atrocious. But if Nikon and cannon would make a camera that is backward compatible, and the size of a GH4, with all the external controls of a DSLR, I think it would be a complete success.
I want a 70D with Ibis 4k no aa filter headphone or blue tooth for audio monitoring. ProRes. And clean hdmi out!! A hybrid viewfinder would be awesome!! Maybe Pentax will build this in their K-3 II!!!
I think there are two types of photographers buying cameras today- Those that shoot mirrorless now and those that will shoot mirrorless in the future. Panasonic GH4 and the Sony A6000 have overcome the main issue voiced with DSLRs vs Mirrorless--that of focusing speeds. So we can keep trying to find reason to buy the bulkier more expensive DSLR, but in the end, mirrorless will be the only choice. It's like 35mm SLR or twin lens reflexes. There will always be hold-outs, but there is also a clear winner. If Nikon and Canon would come up with a system that cooperates (including mount) with other major brands, let say like micro four thirds, or a FF mirrorless like the Sony, they would be eating a little crow, while laughing all the way to the bank!
Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji and Sony all make cameras that perform great and have a huge range of options. Right now ergonomics and whether your main interest are in video or still make the difference in your mirrorless choice. Nikon could compete and they are going to have to wake up and compete in the mirrorless market if the want to survive.
This is my opinion, please no nasty comments. Thanks
plz do review of alpha 77 mark 2
I don't know what Canon and Nikon should do, but I know what I like in a camera. I liked the ergonomics of my Nikon F401x and F801s mounted with 50mm f/1.8 lenses. Easy to cary, good grip, that wide instead of deep. Large viewfinder, much better and brighter than the newest Canon ?D and Nikon D?. Not too heavy, but heavy enough to give a steady shot. Durable, so I never had them in a bag, but I always had them with me for great pictures. Now I use my iPhone for that, and my pictures are not that great. Simple buttons, no hassle, just shooting pictures. For video I liked Sony DV-CAM. I had a DCR-PC103E shooting PAL. It always focused. Quickly and accurately. The sound was great, something all my DSLR, GoPro's and bullit-cam's don't have. It's like sound don't matter any more, now that people listens to crappy MP3 from smartphone speakers. And a lot of video now is a music video, using a tune instead of the sound from the recording. The DV-CAM's were quick to shift exposure when going in and out of different light situations, I had a screen, so I knew what I was recording and headphone jack so I knew what kind of audio I had. The tape's was the cheepest form of backup. That is overlooked today. Sometimes you record something, that has no meaning at the time of recording, but gives great meaning 5 years later. We don't save video any more. It craves to much harddisk space and extra backup. It was small enough to fit in a jacket pocket and there were great wide-angle lenses to mount in front. If that can be done in camera's today, I will buy them. I think Fuji get's it right soon. Or maybe Panasonic or Sony. Thanks for sharing your thoughts in the night :-)
I was an avid Leica user, but in the digital age, the weak link is the mechanical tolerance in the rangefinder system. Back-focus and front-focus mis-calibrations kill the system. It's a deal killer to have to send bodies and lenses off to Germany just so they work together.
So, I switched back to Nikon (while also picking up a Sony RX1R). Here are my thoughts...
With Nikon I have bought Otus and a couple of other ZF.2 lenses that give me 21-135 range in primes. Fine. With the D810, the quality is outstanding. Back to DSLR gives me the option of zoom too, and VR, which is great. But big. I like the D810 big bright OVF, and I don't like my RX1R's EVF... yet.
So, where is my roadmap? The advantage of the EVF is a true view of what the sensor 'sees', along with peaking and zebras. Ultimately EVF quality may really mimic OVF, and then I won't miss OVF. Goodbye Nikon.
Or, Nikon do what Jordan suggests - give me EVF, or hybrid. Ultimately, when EVF gets through another generation or two, the mirror box will be a 100% liability (shake). Keep the professional build values of the D810 / D4S, but offer a no-mirror EVF option.... or come up with their own A7-like mirrorless. But as Jordan makes the point, if you have a big Nikon lens, the big Nikkor lens is balanced, so it isn't a space/size issue.
But I will predict this... if Nikon hasn't figured it out by the time Sony has a full A7 system that includes super-telephotos supported by high accurate bursts, specialty wide angles, macros, and tilt-shifts, then Nikon is Titanic. It will take a while to go down, but it will. It may yet come up with a new mount and a new mirrorless system that is serious, but in the interim it needs a a serious, viable mirrorless body for its F-mount Nikkor glass.
A good discussion you guys. Just a pity it didn't end in an arm wrestle. next time...
I would love to be able to continue to use my canon flashes & lenses with Mirrorless technology. Canon & Nikon should improve on areas where Mirrorless is weak: 1. Off camera speed lights (current panasonic & olympus flashes are toys compared to top canon & nikon flashes), 2. Studio flash. It is a huge advantage to have an optical viewfinder with a lens that opens up aperture to focus when using studio flash. Try doing that with MFT - you end up looking at a black viewfinder when you're in manual mode with dim modelling lights, 3. Focus tracking for sports. I realize sony is closing the gap with DSLRs on this.
So Canon & Nikon, offer Mirrorless models that work with your existing lenses & flash, but improve on every Mirrorless weakness you can think of. Your companies have the resources to do it.
BTW I am currently running both Canon DSLR & MFT rigs.
I'm fine with DSLR size camera. To properly support video, they should implement a hybrid view finder that switch from prism to EVF on mirror up for video mode.
What I want is a SONY A7 without the EVF, a6000/EM-1's AF and Fuji-X's lens lineup.
I seriously loved this segment. I was on the edge of my seat listening to the both of you talk.
Here is my dilemma: I own a Fuji X100S. I hate the slow auto-focus and the fact does not focus well in low ambient light situations.
On top of this, I'm in LOVE with Profoto gear, namely the B1 and B2 lighting systems. Sure, this is expensive gear and, more importantly, Profoto works only with Canon and Nikon. Doh! I'm screwed.
In addition, I love mirrorless cameras and I hate how big and clumsy DSLR's are. I also would love to upgrade my Fuji to the Sony A7 series cameras, but I can't, because Profoto does not support TTL with Sony. I am held in this cruel game of waiting. Is Profoto ever going to support Fuji on Sony? Will Nikon or Canon make a mirrorless camera worthy of using Profoto equipment? There are no answers, only questions.
I am but a fish caught in the net of an empty wind.
Canon 5D Mark 4 should have 4K option, 7D video focus, option for both 22 & 36 mp, 120 p slow mo at 1080.
I am a fan, and I am so glad that Chris and Jordan would be so brave to ask the big question, " Why is the King naked? "
I also enjoy the "between the line" where they talked about the Nikon Df, D810 and then Canon 5D mk4. That is exactly what I think about them too, Good Job !!
As for the question if we need the "mirror box" and how they called the new mirror-less camera, small size camera. I just put a Nikon F3, a Nikon FM, a Sony a7R and a Sony a7S together, they are about the same size !! So, I would rather call these mirror-less camera, "the size that works, and the size that we are used to."
If Nikon did listen to Chris from the 2012 X'mas video, and made the Nikon Df the size of a Nikon FM, with tools to manual focus, weather it a mirror-less or DSLR, we would not have need for this video and discussion here...
In my view, unless you are so rich that you can afford the Zeiss Otus 1.4/55, the Zeiss ZE and ZF lens are the best lens for the Nikon and Canon camera, and I think they know it... that is why there is no way you can use the ZE and ZF lenses properly, even on your most expensive "pro" camera !! No manual focus tools !! and you need to micro focus tune your camera for each lens.. ? hello?
I had a Zeiss ZF 2/35 and ZF 3,5/18 for my Nikon D800. And guess what I am now using? a Sony a7R !! because the D800 is wasting the lenses !! At the end, I sold the D800 to get a Sony a7S !!
the one thing, I like about the Sony a7 series is that they don't mind you go back to use your old legendary lens, may it be Nikon mount, Canon mount, or Contax mount, knowing that their current FE Zeiss or G lens are just as good and much more convenience.... also at a very good price too.
Last month, I went to a wedding with my Sony a7R, a 55mm f/1.8 and a 35mm f/2.8 lens. There were a few other so called "pro photographers" there as well, wearing their so called "pro camera" and a tons of long lens around their waists. You know how people like to "wear" their gears? But at the end, nothing can come close to the photos I took, sharpness wise; colour wise; and resolution wise.
I think one of them was switching camera soon after....
Mind you, I had been hating Sony for the longest time since the early 1990's.. until I tried the Sony RX100. I had to say sorry to my friends, because they all hate Sony... but after looking at the quality of the photo the RX100 takes, I was down on knees. I had to put down my pride.
I hope Nikon and Canon would do the same, cause like Chris and Jordan said, "Pride" is all that Nikon and Canon got left... and that will drag them to the bottom of the ocean !!
Even thou canon gets much beating for crippling cameras and selling sensors thats not good enough compared to what people wish they sold, I think they do a few things right. There is always a balance in new tech and what/when to sell it, to get the most out of it, and what is most important. Making and selling cameras tailored to specific genres like wildlife, lowlight, allrounder, landscape, streetphoto, sport etc makes for great sales. Every different forum/community will love that one camera and reccomend it to others that share same love. The 7d II are made for wildlife and sports. Buffer, crop, great af, high fps is what stands out, and thats what matters the most for sport and wildlife. 70d is for video with low budget, 1dx is a allround king and 5dIII is a lighter version of it. In my opinion they would benefit of reducing the mp on the 6d to make it a even stronger lowlight camera and introduce a landscape king! 6d has great af in lowlight and great lowlight sensor, but it could be made more spesific/stronger. And a pro landscape camera with a superb sensor and 4k vid. High DR and lowlight performance. No need for high buffer and frames per second in stills. And keep on making the top 1D cameras the great at all option.
Call me stupid. But are mirrorless cameras pretty much like the old rangefinder style cameras? Such as a Mamiya 6?
A working layered sensor is what can bring enthusiasts back to the big guys. That would be a huge innovation (for them).
I had the option to buy either a Olympus EM-1 or Canon 70d, I choose the 70d because of the lens selection, but I wanted the EM-1 more. I think Nikon should make a kick butt 4/3 camera like the EM-1 (mini Df), and Canon needs to take the amazing 70d censor and put it into an Eos-M body with two more dials, bigger battery, give away the adapter for the rest of canon's SLR lenses, and it would fly off the shelves quicker than the Fuji XT1 did.
Either way Canon and Nikon, JUST DO SOMETHING. Good episode Chris and Jordan!
The problem for me as an event photographer is and always has been; I shoot five to six hundred photos per event. mostly in badly lit tungsten carbide of fluorescent light conditions. Run and gun. I need a low light camera that focuses every time in poor lighting conditions. Since the d700 no camera has met my needs. Albeit that the new d810 hold promises that are yet to be realized I found the the d600 d610 to be woefully inadequate. The d800 d800e both had problems from the get go.
Here is my perfect camera. Full frame mirrorless 24-28 mp sensor with a huge bright hybrid viewfinder, native ISO of 50 extremely good at 6000-12,000 ISO that shoots at least 6-7 fps. As many cross type sensors as you can pack into the sensor. A sturdy flip and turn 3.5 inch screen that is touch sensitive, with wireless connectivity and while we are at it throw in a wireless trigger system. High speed sync to 320, shutter speeds up to 1/8000.Package that to fit all my pro glass at a equal weight of the new.d800 and I would be in.with both guns blazing.
Olympus could be a kind of a role model für both Canon and Nikon. In a positive as well as in a negative way.
Oly did the switch from a DSLR system (Olympus E) to a mirrorless System a few years ago, without changing sensor size. I think its quite obvious what worked and what didnt with the switch:
- The mft cameras are amazing - but they were not when mft started. Until the E-M5 they didnt have a real replacement for a DSLR.
- The lenses can be adapted but it has always been a quirky thing. Its getting better, but still the transition was NOT smooth.
For a new system without a mirror box, smaller lenses are possible and should be constructed. I think it is okay to leave behind the old cameras in that they wont support the new lenses. But using an adapter and a hybrid focussing system to allow the new cameras to support the old lenses should be posible.
Thats what they should be doing:
- hybrid focussing system
- a (working!) way to adapt old lenses
- get rid of the mirror box in the long run, maybe make a transition model that has a mirror box and a hybrid viewfinder
I see absolutely no reason why anone would stick with a mirror when buying a new camera today. Picture quality has NOTHING to do with whether you have a mirror in there or not,its all about the sensor and lens. And with the new EVFs which really deliver on the old promise (D)SLRs dont really fulfill, namely WYSIWYG, why stick to such a backward system?
Chris, Jordan,... you're basically saying that Canon and Nikon should make thier own version of a K-01, but without the compromises in the K-01's shipped firmware.
(And possibly with an adapter or variable flange distance mechanism.)
Have you guys played with it with the current firmware?
And do read what we've boiled down to for the necessary firmware changes on the PentaxForum, as CaNikon would need to include those too.
The more mirror less cameras I'm seeing, the more I want one. I'm tired of carrying my SLRs and sometimes I settle just for an iPhone pic because I know it's just images to share socially. I've made a compromise and started carrying a rebel body with a 50 plastic 1.8 lens, and yea that sucks. I'm considering getting the pan-cake 40mill lens just to have a smaller form factor, which will make it easier to carry my camera around.
I think SLRs have their place, and when I'm dong a paid gig, I use my 6D and have no prob with that. But like most photogs, I like to take my camera everywhere, but it seems so inconvenient when I see other shooters with their Leicas and other mirror-less options. There's a market for mirror-less full frame, Canon needs to embrace it, and jump ahead of the comp with touch screens, wifi capabilities and maybe even some in camera app options.
Canikon should join micro 4/3 if they want a slice of mirrorless market....but they dont want to hurt their prides I am guessing
the Sony A7 with metabones and a canikon prime is tiny and awesome. I've had a few photogs go from FF DSLRs to M43/FF/Fujifilm and are content simply because it's not as damn heavy.
Chris, the size thing is not a problem, no need to make things so tiny, they won't be much better (or better at all) to hold and operate. It's better to make cameras good to hold for photographers, and let people alter the ergonomics for when you're doing a lot of video. I agree with Jordan here.
And the Pentax K-01 is not as bad as you say, it's great image quality, great build quality, but horrible video quality, yes manual settings, but the video has no details. Should have had a viewfinder, but the LCDVF worked pretty well for me.
I'm still wondering why bluetooth and wifi aren't standard for Nikons yet?
In a nutshell:
1) Photographers want large sensors & more pixels (like D800, 5DMiii, etc.)
2) Videographers want fast sensors & 4K (like GH4, A7s, BlackMagic, etc.)
3) ALL want a lower price point
4) WINNER for Photography? Canon & Nikon
5) WINNER for Videography? Sony & Panasonic
If you could give me a hybrid of the GH4 & the A7s (large sensor, internal 4K, in a compact body, fast AF) I'd buy it. Of course I'm speaking more from a videographers point of view.
I had a Nikon DSLR, but after a summer of sailing, cycling and hiking up mountains I knew I needed something smaller that still took better pictures than a compact like a Canon G. I got a NEX-6 and ended up selling the DSLR because it just does everything as well for half the size. Having made that switch I can't imagine going back to optical viewfinders either - anyone who goes into a shop and looks down a Fuji XT-1 EVF will understand.
At the point of switch I was a 'Nikon user' - there were three DX Nikon DSLRs in the house. Had there been a compact Nikon mirrorless available with decent DX lens compatablilty (autofocus adaptor, even if that would cost $100 and mimic the flange bulk) it would have been extremely hard for another manufacturer to get my business. Since Nikon had nothing to offer me, I went Sony, and 7 e-mount lenses later Nikon have lost a good paying customer and Sony have got an invested user (provided they can bring themselves to release an A7000 but that's another story).
I would love to meet someone from Nikon, just so I could tell them 'look, I wanted to stick with you guys, I really did, you could have had my money but you turned it down'.
What Should Canon and Nikon Do?
I think this discussion will be of wonderful, if DigitalRevTv and camerastore team up together and make a discussion video about it !.
I think Nikon has the right idea for mirrorless at this point in time. I bought into the 1 system when it came out and I like how it's grown. It's not a "pro" solution, but as far as I can tell mirrorless tech isn't really there yet in comparison to DSLR's. So, by keeping the sensor small and thereby keeping the glass small it's a great system for people wanting more than their cell phone camera but not wanting the bulk of a DSLR. For the pro's who want top quality, they are better off sticking to the DSLR's anyway. Sony and Fuji have shown that big sensors in little cameras can be done, but neither offer a full package.
how could you not mention the gh4 once -_- derps
Also canon and nikon should add peaking and zebra with custom color selection for the peaking to their new semi pro or even full pro mirrorless bodies.
Nikon added Zebra with the D810. Why they didn't also add peaking, no one will ever know...
Jordan @ TCSTV
TheCameraStoreTV its so embarrassing, that they do the salami tactics... Zebra, peaking and changeable audio levels into the nikon during recording. Even canon can do it :-)
Fionn-Gorilla with nikon, its kind of understandable since they release new models much quicker than canon and they often update the entire lineup. So they will try and keep one or two features saved for the next iteration but canon has no real excuse. They should have had both peaking and zebra on the 70d.
Pretty sure zebras and peaking are available on Canon through Magic Lantern.
Looking forward to drone videos, hope that black one can lift Sony A6000/NEX-6 with power zoom lens.
I had always thought that Nikon went the wrong way with the Series 1. How about a Series 2? A mirrorless camera system with a DX or FX sensor but with a new series of lenses designed around a shorter lens mount to film plane distance. Then all that's needed for people like me who has a significant investment in lenses is to get an adapter that would allow me to use any lens that I currently own with this camera. Small and compact when used with native lenses designed to work with this system and yet still retaining the backwards compatibility that Nikon is famous for.
I think you guys hit the nail on the head. With Canon in-particular, it's a combination of pride and not wanting to eat into the DSLR sales. It's quite ironic because the very fact they are doing nothing in the mirrorless market (EOS-M is a joke as it currently stands) means they are losing DSLR sales. I wonder what it will take for them both to swallow their pride and get their head out of the sand. I think part of the problem is that the EOS-M series and Nikon 1 series are doing quite well in Japan (last time I checked), so there's less incentive for them to 'rock the boat'.
I've been waiting forever for Canon and Nikon to make mirrorless cameras in the same quality-range as Sony have done with NEX (or Alpha now) and the A7-series. I feel like Sony is really on to something with these systems, but the reason why I am still reluctant to buy is the extremely limited selection of lenses, without using an adapter.
Especially when it comes to 3rd party lens makers like Sigma, that is making so many high quality lenses with their new art-series. My dream camera would be something like an A7, with 2x the battery life, touch screen (mostly for live view focus), sensor shift stabilizer and the lens selection that Canon and Nikon has, without having to use and adaptor.
I've been extremely close to getting an A7 but it still feels like something in the beta-stage. They are definately on to something, but I think they need to advance one or two generations with the camera bodies, and more lenses need to be available without adaptors, especially from companies like Tamron and Sigma.
I really wish that Canon and Nikon would get into this market as well, as competition is always good for pushing the boundaries, and it would probably encourage the 3rd party lens makers to get into the mirrorless lens market if they have the biggest brands there to make products for.
I agree with Jordan, I don't need a smaller Canon body but I want to put my EF lenses directly onto a mirrorless body that has all the features of an SLR. I'm already noticing many long-time Canon shooters selling up and buying mirrorless, mainly Fujifilm. If Canon don't stem the flow soon, they may find themselves with a decreasing market share.
A hybrid SLR-EVF camera is probably a dream for action photographers who also like shooting other stuff.
i don't care what they'll do. i sold my 5DII and 5 lenses. Bought a Panasonic GH4 with two X-lenses and a new Mac Pro 8-core for the money and i must say; i couldn't be happier ! I have tons of fun with the GH4. Brilliant video quality and who cares about that little edge in quality over mirror-less regarding stills. Color correct people !! That edge is a lot smaller than you expect, believe me !
I want Nikon to make a full frame version of the GH4 with 70D style focus technology, short flange distance for people who want to use it with whatever proprietary compact lenses they want to build for it. AND a full featured adapter that would allow you to use good ole' standard Nikon lenses (the ones with stepping motors in them anyway, Nikon has those, right?) with proper autofocus and whatnot. Can that really be that hard for them? Maybe... Lol
Or maybe the 5DMkIV will do all of that except the short flange distance -- like Jordan mas trying to say I think... Remind me again why we need mirror boxes? Seriously I'm drawing a blank on what the advantage is these days.
I would really like to see Canon use their Radio trigger system and implement a completely enclosed flash studio system,
I grew up using Canons and so once I brought together my lens and body system and started using strobes and all that, I started buying third party gear and stopped caring about Canon products... the new 600EX-RT came out? I already have studio strobes, and I have pocket wizards, Chinese triggers, skyports for my Elinchrom lights.
What I WANT to see... Canon triggers, or better yet, built in triggers... the 600EX-RT with modifiers built specifically for flash heads by Canon. I wanna see in-menu flash controls... Because I found myself spending up to $4000 on Elinchrom lights, stands, modifiers and battery packs so I can shoot outdoor weddings... I don't need all that power... but imagine taking a few small Canon flash units, for half the price and 10% of the weight and size and I can do the same job.
My point is, what Canon and Nikon are missing out on is - if they want to rule the SLR world, then RULE it - not just with bodies and lenses, but with SYSTEMS. You have Nikons and want to start shooting studio or flash? Stay in the family. The offerings by both companies leave a lot to be desired (not in terms of power) but in terms of useability. Im actually excited Canon implemented radio triggers in their own units now. Its a small thing but its super important for someone like me who does a lot of outdoor photo sessions, and the price of an Elinchrom light, stand, modifier, battery pack is more than double the price of a Canon flash with the same extras and for about the same gain number as some expensive strobes... I would like to see more from that.
Even something as small as adding in 50p @1080 would help the cause, sick of being stuck with 720p for slow mo on my 5D mk iii when an old go pro trumps it.... Hell my iPhone does better slo-mo...
Great video, as every TCS upload!
One thing you guys missed to touch on : The threat from Sony, which is innovating at a faster pace!
I think Canon/Nikon should take a leaf from what Sony did with A7/A7R/A7s - Create a full frame in a mirrorless body, but retain their lens mounts (something that Sony failed to do) and keep the pricing towards $1200-$1500. I can imagine Canon Full frame mirrorless body with Pancake lens and it will be an impulse buy for me!
Mirrorless is a good move. You can adapt almost any other lens mount to a mirrorless mount. I also want to see more in their cinema line like a cinema camera with their full frame sensor or one that shoots 2k Raw or 4k internally, like a C400 or C600.
The variable flange distance idea is a good one. To kind of be flexible in using F-mount lenses and newer lighter mirrorless ones.
In the DSLR category the Df was a good idea, although it came out half-assed in my opinion. It should have had a bigger and birghter viewfinder rather than the adaptation of the D800/e incorporated. Also Nikon should have included different focusing screens (especially with the price they charged for the Df) that help with manual focusing better and not 3rd party ones that cut down the amount of light entering, but a legit Nikon made screen for it.
did you fight after recording this footage dudes? :)
Have not switched to mirrorless because of the lack of available lenses, plus hesitant about the smallish formfactor (big hands). I guess the idea of just taking the mirrorbox out and switching to EVF is not that silly....
I enjoyed the show, but I also agree with the premise that it would be better to build a system that allows for use (minus the adapter) of the current gear that has been invested in, rather stayed totally from scratch. Btw, photography is still an art that requires light and a "tool" to paint that light in order to create great art and knowledge for using it! Whether you're using a pin hole camera or a Hasselblad, find what's best for your situation! Once last thought, but apparently the 5 Mark I I wasn't so bad, since a entire Season of House was shot using it! Gear heads sometimes lean on technology more than the art, which is why the perception is that cameras no take pictures rather than people! IMO
I agree with Jordan, same fantastic Nikon bodies (with a rotating lcd screen) with a hybrid style EVF, a simple switch and you can choose if you'd like an optical or electronic viewfinder.
Canon should make a mirrorless camera that is:
- high end (high end features, IQ, etc...)
- compact
- inexpensive
- looks nice (rangefinder style???)
- supports traditional lenses via an inexpensive adapter
- has at least 10 native lenses
sony is already doing this... and they are having A LOT of success.
I don't need a mirror-less system or a smaller/lighter body either. The 5D III is pretty much perfect for me. But I wish Canon could improve the dynamic range of their SLR sensors by a f-stop or two.
Cool discussion.
Couldn't help but think of Pentax in this also, as they seem to be along the same lines as the main two.
For me the lack of competitive video implementation is really hurting the big names. As magic lantern has shown, these guys are already producing decent hardware, they just need to make better use of it with their software.
Mirrorless with official autofocus capable adapters seems the most sensible way to allow users to keep their existing lens investments. And the speed booster option is a winner also, if official provided also...
I have a 5D Mark III, I don't see myself switching to a new camera after 2 years. I'm waiting to see what comes out in a year or 2. I would like a compact A7 or similar full frame but I want the matching compact lenses for it. Makes no since from a photography standpoint to put DSLR lenses on a compact body.
I've been shooting Photos and Videos on my Canon T3i for 5 years and I hacked it with Magic Lantern 2 years ago. As much as i love my T3i, its been incredibly good to me, I just can't keep going with Canon. Especially ever since the GH4 came out theres no reason for me to stay with Canon.
i'm a nikon user and what i think that is a pain in the ass with most of the nikon bodies is that you can't change your aperture while filming video and not seeing a preview result in lv... it's ok if you have a lot of D, Ais or older lenses, but GG G lenses
Chris, when Canon or Nikon create a mirror-less body that can use fast lenses with a full frame sensor then I'm all in. Smaller sensors just can't print large images right out the box like FF can; nor produce the same BOKEH as fast FF glass. Show me a mirror-less combo that can produce the same spectrum of image characteristics like the 5D3/1DX or D810/D4s with an 50 or 85mm f1.2 or f1.4 and we'll talk, but you can't other than the Sony's A7's. You just can't get a smaller lens to duplicate what a larger diameter lens can, it's simple physics, bigger diameter more light gathering, smaller less light. And, some of us don't have girly hands or want tinny cameras, we have big hands...and enjoy using, having at the ready, all settings, more freedom to create, not limited.
Great topic!
It's not just the mirrorless dilemma but as Stu Maschwitz likes to say, 'are these companies giving us all they can?' The answer is obviously no. For example, think of a Canon camera out of the box and then think of it with Magic Lantern turned on. Cameras are just tech in a box and their tech right now isn't as good as it should be.
Yay Jordan! Give me an FX sensor F-mount mirrorless body with articulating touch display and an excellent EVF. Do a DX version for a lower entry price. On-sensor phase-detect is the future with full image area coverage. The lenses to cover the format aren't going to get significantly smaller or lighter with a new mount. And while Nikon's at it, fill in the missing DX range equivalents for folks who see that format as a sweet spot.
Thanks, member of the-team-who-knows-where-thing-are-going!
Jordan @ TCSTV
NIKON/CANON should come out with full frame mirrorless camera, like the Sony 7 series. Modern age equivalent of classic LEICA M. Offer an entry level 12mp model around $1000.
Most people who have lots of NIKON/CANON /Contax/Zeiss/Pentax/LEICA/etc lenses will buy a body to fit their old/new/other brand lenses with adapters.
I have NIKON DSLRs and I have manual Contax/Zeiss lenses that will not fit NIKON DSLRs even with adapters (due to the depth of the mirror box) . Mirrorless will not have such a problem due to the lack of the mirror box. All other brand of lenses can be used with adapters. Like SONY did NIKON/CANON can make an adapter for their current AF lenses that is fully functional.
I think it is a matter of time before they bow to market pressure, or let SONY/FUJI eat their lunch !!!
I agree with Jordan. I think the future is mirrorless in a DSLR form factor, utilizing everyone's vast pre-existing investment in lenses and accessories.
What they should do:
1- Stop castrating cameras (Olympus m43 systems barely cripples their line)
2- The idea of fast contrast detect on dSLR is close to impossible, the lenses clearly weren't made for that kind of AF system in mind and yes, phase detection on a body of 20mp+ is terrible. I have no idea where AF system are headed for dSLR, I have to shoot closed down all the time to get something out.
3- Magic Lantern in itself is proof that Canon doesn't give a F... to its mid-to-low userbase. Both of them should push camera firmwares to a more modern way to support "manual focus", live view assist modules, optical viewfinder assist modules
4- interchangeable viewfinder screen for all bodies.
Nikon needs an "fm2-esc" camera? Have you heard of the Nikon Df?
Nikon did one thing that is probably one of the most revolutionary thing with the D810: they promised a SDK (software developer kit). (for programmers to develop apps for the d810)
But the problem is, they didn't released it yet and probably they will neglect it. As they did with video in the nikon d90...
Nobody needs an "unofficial" magic latern if there is an official SDK!
So please, camera manufacturer, release SDKs and let us develop apps.
Just look what apps did to the smartphone industry. Back in the old days with Nokias, there were no apps (at least for the mainstream) and the phones were not so capable...
Apps are incredible!
Jordan's right!
Great video. Fun conversation with good points. You could argue Canon's EF-M system and Nikon's V system were the same as Canon dumping FD and going EOS. To your point they were just copying others and didn't put heart into it, likely to protect their DSLR's.
"you're cute and you're angry" ... best comment .. lol .. great discussion.