Hey! Thanks for the response. Always appreciate insights. Here's a few counter points: 1. Game length: The average Deadlock game is probably much closer to 35 minutes right now. I don't think anyone has the stats other than Valve, but I'm willing to bet that's the case with the current patch. Therefore, the comparison to Dota still stands (IMO). 2. Cooldown reduction stacking: It does stack diminishingly. It's not 10 + 10 = 20. You can buy cooldown and see this yourself. Sup CD = 24%. Sup CD + Spiritual Overflow = 35% (despite it being 24 + 15). It's just not nearly enough. Also, sidenote: Pocket ult is OP, even if debuff remover removes it, but that's a whole other topic LOL. Appreciate the response! Curious to see if the devs will address this.
Yeah, I think your right the game lengths have felt a bit longer after the change with the weakened patron reducing spawn times so not as easy to just instantly end the game. I would be interested to see the actual time change on that, but I think you may be right there. Lol I guess thats my bad completely, I should of just went in and tested how the CDR stacks from multiple items before suggesting diminishing returns as potential solution if they are already doing it and its still is an issue. Pockets entire kit feels broken in the correct hands lol (Not my hands but some peoples)
imagine spamming Pocket ult with good CD red + a bit duration and just spend like around 5-6k for it. even if 2 ppl buy remover, its so worth (imagine you force them to buy more, like 4 or 5 removers. its just make them lose so much even with even net Worth) . if they don't buy it its basically free time to farm around cuz you just lock their teamfight option or already won the fight cuz half of them needed to retrieve. 50 Sec CD Affliction and without duration its like 20sec. if you buy Imp Duration + Arcane Dash its goes 29 sec with 50Sec CD which is disgusting. (Note: I ONLY buy imp duration for that build. rest of the items literally core Pocket items such as arcane/imp CD/ enc Barrier/ leech/ kevlar...)
Another thing that is prob worth considering is the fact dota2 only has 6 item slots to fill compared to 16 item slots in deadlock. However, even then one item in dota2 is not quite the same as 1 item deadlock because there are so much more component items in dota2. Example: Dota2 to build a Manta Style you need to buy 5 items (Blade of Alacrity, Band of Elvinskin, Yasha(recipe), Diadem, Manta Style(recipe)) which is kind of like a bunch of 500/1250 items combine into one slot. Deadlock does not have many component items at all and the few that do build into upgrades, it's just a single component to upgrade. Lol I know it's going to sound contradictory, but I am not sure exactly how I feel about this point either now that I have typed it out, but another factor to consider. To be clear I do think the way Dota2 does CDR makes more sense than Deadlock. Either way we will have to see what the devs end up going with and the game will change and evolve over time regardless the same way Dota2 does.
Just to add to your explanation for people who didn't know this yet, like myself, since 24% + 15% is (approximately) 35%, that means that CD stacks starting with the lower reduction first to better balance the stack. Opposite this, I would assume that buffs stack in an opposite fashion? 10 + 10 would actually be a 19% reduction = 100% * (100% - 10%) = 90%. Now 90% * (100% - 10%) = 81%. This gives you a 19% reduction. 24 + 15 would be about a 35% reduction = 100% * (100% - 15%) = 85%. Now 85% * (100% - 24%) = 64.6%. This gives you a 35.4% reduction.
I hate how neither of you brought up the slot value comparison with Deadlock and Dota. With deadlock you have 16 potential slots for items each with their own stats and effects, while in Dota you only have 6 slots (and 1 neutral item usually with marginal benefits equivalent to on average half a slot in stats). This means that picking up CDR in dota has a much larger impact on both your itemization and economy. Whereas in deadlock getting CDR is so easy to incorporate without limiting your other options and not sacrificing too much farm on that one stat that everyone can do it.
Have no idea why this video exists when in the middle of the video you just agree that cooldowns are too short and should be longer. You just agree with every normative claim Deathy makes but are for some reason hesitant to just admit its an issue currently.
A good solution is changing the cooldown items to give less stats. You need to actually trade in potential damage for lesser cooldowns. Right now if you full on go for cdr, you just get it as a by product of other items.
Deadlock matches now last on average 30-35 minutes after the recent patch due to the respawn changes when the 1st patron dies, so both Dota and DL have close match times. I would personally just lessen the number of items that give CDR, but I wouldn't take them out of statues. Statues are a way for heroes to scale when there are no item slots. Also, their bonuses are minute unless someone is intentionally seeking them, not to mention that CDR buff is 1/6 other buffs to be dropped from a statue IF that statue drops a buff. Also, CDR already has diminishing returns its difficult to go above ~50% even with all items.
This is interesting because i agree with the point of comparison of games isn't fair. I played Dota and it's not just cooldown but also mana management as well to consider and the point with time is good too. I played Pokemon unite and it's purely cooldowns on a 10 minute game and a cooldown buff or nerf changes pokemon viability in metas. Unite imo has it's own issue with CC in a short game. Despite similarities, that's not a good comparison too. The other point i like you said is how you can counter Pocket's ult because any character can be countered to not have access or significance with their ult and would assume the whole importance is the ult. I don't play Pocket purely for ult, it's the whole kit. i played Bebop for his ultimate and didn't see the power of his bombs. beginners saw Seven ult and thought that was the strongest. This has to assume the ultimate is that powerful. Some kits in other characters lack cooldown but the items significantly helps and needed but makes everyone else even better at the same time. It's an interesting discussion because I very much understand his points but some things im not to sure about.
maybe if they took out all of the minus cooldown on the skills upgrades this could be fixed without changing the items, or else DR seems to be the best solution indeed especially since lots of choices for CDR would be great for builds variability with CDR
Comparing it to dota is flawed as mana itself isnt accounted for. In dota you can get stuff to improve your mana pool which is also related how often you can spam an ability. CD in general are lower in DOTA so getting more mana is equal to reducing mana. The state of CDR doesn't really seem an issue. The game is suppose to ramp up. Everyone should be godly at the end. People always talk about nerfing but by nerfing one thing you are doing the equivalent of buffing everything else. As long as every hero is presented a similar outcome of being OP (which makes it not over powered by definition) it shouldn't matter. Like we are talking about 50k+ soul builds here. If anything a solution would be to nerf the value of every item slot across the board. But what's the point of that? Having you feel as strong as a 30m build now at 50m? People should be popping off at end game and you should be countering. Real opinion. This all gets watered down by more heroes. Every hero OP in their own way it wont matter.
Im a middling rank rn so i may be wrong here. But i dont really see a massive problem necessarily with the state of the game right now. I dont think there being a massive amount of cdr has really made my games worse or feel worse. Im just wondering how much of this anti cdr thing is stats nerds looking at numbers and thinking they are too high and too prevalent instead of reflecting on the state of the game as it is.
lol you may be right and thats why deathy did say maybe we are just in a high mmr bubble and really its perfectly fine, but yeah its good to hear feedback from all skill ranges
Hey! Thanks for the response. Always appreciate insights. Here's a few counter points:
1. Game length: The average Deadlock game is probably much closer to 35 minutes right now. I don't think anyone has the stats other than Valve, but I'm willing to bet that's the case with the current patch. Therefore, the comparison to Dota still stands (IMO).
2. Cooldown reduction stacking: It does stack diminishingly. It's not 10 + 10 = 20. You can buy cooldown and see this yourself. Sup CD = 24%. Sup CD + Spiritual Overflow = 35% (despite it being 24 + 15). It's just not nearly enough.
Also, sidenote: Pocket ult is OP, even if debuff remover removes it, but that's a whole other topic LOL. Appreciate the response! Curious to see if the devs will address this.
Yeah, I think your right the game lengths have felt a bit longer after the change with the weakened patron reducing spawn times so not as easy to just instantly end the game. I would be interested to see the actual time change on that, but I think you may be right there.
Lol I guess thats my bad completely, I should of just went in and tested how the CDR stacks from multiple items before suggesting diminishing returns as potential solution if they are already doing it and its still is an issue.
Pockets entire kit feels broken in the correct hands lol (Not my hands but some peoples)
imagine spamming Pocket ult with good CD red + a bit duration and just spend like around 5-6k for it. even if 2 ppl buy remover, its so worth (imagine you force them to buy more, like 4 or 5 removers. its just make them lose so much even with even net Worth) . if they don't buy it its basically free time to farm around cuz you just lock their teamfight option or already won the fight cuz half of them needed to retrieve.
50 Sec CD Affliction and without duration its like 20sec.
if you buy Imp Duration + Arcane Dash its goes 29 sec with 50Sec CD which is disgusting.
(Note: I ONLY buy imp duration for that build. rest of the items literally core Pocket items such as arcane/imp CD/ enc Barrier/ leech/ kevlar...)
Another thing that is prob worth considering is the fact dota2 only has 6 item slots to fill compared to 16 item slots in deadlock. However, even then one item in dota2 is not quite the same as 1 item deadlock because there are so much more component items in dota2.
Example: Dota2 to build a Manta Style you need to buy 5 items (Blade of Alacrity, Band of Elvinskin, Yasha(recipe), Diadem, Manta Style(recipe)) which is kind of like a bunch of 500/1250 items combine into one slot.
Deadlock does not have many component items at all and the few that do build into upgrades, it's just a single component to upgrade.
Lol I know it's going to sound contradictory, but I am not sure exactly how I feel about this point either now that I have typed it out, but another factor to consider.
To be clear I do think the way Dota2 does CDR makes more sense than Deadlock.
Either way we will have to see what the devs end up going with and the game will change and evolve over time regardless the same way Dota2 does.
Just to add to your explanation for people who didn't know this yet, like myself, since 24% + 15% is (approximately) 35%, that means that CD stacks starting with the lower reduction first to better balance the stack. Opposite this, I would assume that buffs stack in an opposite fashion?
10 + 10 would actually be a 19% reduction = 100% * (100% - 10%) = 90%. Now 90% * (100% - 10%) = 81%. This gives you a 19% reduction.
24 + 15 would be about a 35% reduction = 100% * (100% - 15%) = 85%. Now 85% * (100% - 24%) = 64.6%. This gives you a 35.4% reduction.
I hate how neither of you brought up the slot value comparison with Deadlock and Dota. With deadlock you have 16 potential slots for items each with their own stats and effects, while in Dota you only have 6 slots (and 1 neutral item usually with marginal benefits equivalent to on average half a slot in stats). This means that picking up CDR in dota has a much larger impact on both your itemization and economy. Whereas in deadlock getting CDR is so easy to incorporate without limiting your other options and not sacrificing too much farm on that one stat that everyone can do it.
@@p1ayM0NKEY this is true, very good point actually
Have no idea why this video exists when in the middle of the video you just agree that cooldowns are too short and should be longer. You just agree with every normative claim Deathy makes but are for some reason hesitant to just admit its an issue currently.
A good solution is changing the cooldown items to give less stats. You need to actually trade in potential damage for lesser cooldowns. Right now if you full on go for cdr, you just get it as a by product of other items.
Deadlock matches now last on average 30-35 minutes after the recent patch due to the respawn changes when the 1st patron dies, so both Dota and DL have close match times. I would personally just lessen the number of items that give CDR, but I wouldn't take them out of statues. Statues are a way for heroes to scale when there are no item slots. Also, their bonuses are minute unless someone is intentionally seeking them, not to mention that CDR buff is 1/6 other buffs to be dropped from a statue IF that statue drops a buff. Also, CDR already has diminishing returns its difficult to go above ~50% even with all items.
This is interesting because i agree with the point of comparison of games isn't fair. I played Dota and it's not just cooldown but also mana management as well to consider and the point with time is good too. I played Pokemon unite and it's purely cooldowns on a 10 minute game and a cooldown buff or nerf changes pokemon viability in metas. Unite imo has it's own issue with CC in a short game. Despite similarities, that's not a good comparison too. The other point i like you said is how you can counter Pocket's ult because any character can be countered to not have access or significance with their ult and would assume the whole importance is the ult. I don't play Pocket purely for ult, it's the whole kit. i played Bebop for his ultimate and didn't see the power of his bombs. beginners saw Seven ult and thought that was the strongest. This has to assume the ultimate is that powerful. Some kits in other characters lack cooldown but the items significantly helps and needed but makes everyone else even better at the same time. It's an interesting discussion because I very much understand his points but some things im not to sure about.
Where are these 25 minute games google speaks of???
totally understand u, most of my games are 40+ min
@ yeah and those are relatively fast ones lol
maybe if they took out all of the minus cooldown on the skills upgrades this could be fixed without changing the items, or else DR seems to be the best solution indeed especially since lots of choices for CDR would be great for builds variability with CDR
Comparing it to dota is flawed as mana itself isnt accounted for. In dota you can get stuff to improve your mana pool which is also related how often you can spam an ability. CD in general are lower in DOTA so getting more mana is equal to reducing mana. The state of CDR doesn't really seem an issue. The game is suppose to ramp up. Everyone should be godly at the end. People always talk about nerfing but by nerfing one thing you are doing the equivalent of buffing everything else. As long as every hero is presented a similar outcome of being OP (which makes it not over powered by definition) it shouldn't matter. Like we are talking about 50k+ soul builds here. If anything a solution would be to nerf the value of every item slot across the board. But what's the point of that? Having you feel as strong as a 30m build now at 50m? People should be popping off at end game and you should be countering. Real opinion. This all gets watered down by more heroes. Every hero OP in their own way it wont matter.
Im a middling rank rn so i may be wrong here. But i dont really see a massive problem necessarily with the state of the game right now. I dont think there being a massive amount of cdr has really made my games worse or feel worse. Im just wondering how much of this anti cdr thing is stats nerds looking at numbers and thinking they are too high and too prevalent instead of reflecting on the state of the game as it is.
lol you may be right and thats why deathy did say maybe we are just in a high mmr bubble and really its perfectly fine, but yeah its good to hear feedback from all skill ranges
I have to wonder if the commonality of cooldown reduction is contributing to the short round times...
For sure it is, allows near constant team fighting later on and one team getting wiped then you can end the game
put a cap on certain stats like smite does
Good video, thanks for the insight
Very hard to hear him talking lol
is it to quiet? or is because i have him on 2x speed?
@garvesgaming mostly volume, 2x speed doesn't help though.
@@garvesgaming his volume is lower than yours.
@@Mark-vr7pt ah ok that is my bad, first time I did a response video n didn't want it to be way to long sorry bout that