Yes, not introducing stress by clamping is important. The live center on the lathe or the magnetic chuck on the surface grinder can do the same, bending the part into the "correct" shape while machining and spring back after release
Moldmaker trick: Shim it. With the part on the vacuum chuck/mag-plate, indicate it at various points to see where it moves, and shim under those points. Then when you re-clamp on it, it has support.
Surburban tool has an excellent video on dealing with the bowing with surface grinding using residual magnetism, to eliminate the issue of pulling bowed parts flat
I love to see dedication! I always took raw stock, laud it on a surface plate and used my indicator to measure the rocking, then for OP1 I placed shim stock underneath it in the places I marked. In metal it is sometimes difficult to hold flatness, as you remove material it creates stress and removes a layer of grain structure that is holding the material in it's current shape. But little by little flipping it over, you can sneak up on it and BOOM💥 flatness is attained. Ha ha yes I said BOOM 💥
Im sure it goes both ways. Been doing aerospace work for 7+ years now, where seeing a +/- 0.0002" tolerance on a mill isnt too rare, and you start to get into the "Gotta keep the spindle idle when i go on lunch else it'll cool down and cut a few tenths less depth" etc etc. Sometimes makes you wish you could experience OPEN tolerances.. xD
@jamie allen I use to do high precision batch work...1000 job runoffs of jobs that weighed about half a pound...now most jobs are multiple tonnes with the heaviest been 51
I've machined long and thin plate parts, my boss has always been the type of person to want to apply a lot of pressure to hold it down and every time I release the part it bends upwards. The key is to machine without pressure. Great video.
One thing you should mention is that the "scale" or finish from the supplier holds a stronger memory than the rest of the material. I always "qualify" my stock by facing one side and getting square edges. This ensures that when you flip it you face it off and it can relax this stress from the scale. You will have much better luck doing this especially on flat plate stock. Since the grain lines are along the length of the plate if there is stress it will move a lot. Round stock has cylindrical grain lines and is super stable. Also if you need flatness you can hot glue around the profile of the part. If you face the fixture super flat. you can then scotch bright it for more surface area and then clean with acetone. If there is zero coolant/greese and the fixture is prepared this way you would be amazed at how much hot glue can hold on to. 3m makes some crazy foam double sided tape that i used to use. I would face off a 12" x 12" plate going 12000rpm's at 200ipm cutting .025-.05 deep with a 50% step over and the plate wouldn't move! It blew my mind every time i did it. You can get things so flat with glue and tape since there is zero pressure. I have gotten copper plates as flat as .0001 over about an area 1" x 1".
I'm working in aerospace industry as well and those techniques have been bread and butter for many years now👍 I remember as a young trainee when I first discovered that when milling the surface of relatively long flat piece of steel like 6 x 1 x 0.25 of an inch in a vice across the short edge with multiple cuts over the whole surface instead of one long cut across the long edge does not made the part bend. Those plates have inner fibers in particular direction and that's the magic.
This is one of the first things I learned as a machinist. My mentor taught me these exact things, especially the part about using vaccume fixture to make thin plates flat. Gotta keep it in a free state.
I am a mechanical design engeneer and one "trick" that I like to help out the machinist is to put a big chamfer on the part if that does not mess up the function or design. Than in machining the part can be hold with those small dovetails or mitee-bites clamps. The chamfer operation removes the dovetail or the clamping marks and there is no need to deck the part of at all.
torque wrenches are incredibly important for repeatability and accuracy. even for parts that aren't thin at all. i had small part, second op. little rectangle with 2 holes in it, and depending on how i clamped it i would actually get about .05 mm of difference, it was a pretty loose tolerance, like .2 mm but finding a way to clamp the part down consistently helped me get it within about .005 mm every time
Nice. I really like the dovetail work holding. I’ve found that of all the skills to learn with both cnc and manual machining, work holding is the keystone of it all. Having confidence that the part will stay put always makes a huge difference for me while I’m programming and eases the anxiety when I hit start for the first time on a new part. I’m always looking for new ideas and especially ones that can be standardized. Spend more mental energy on the best way to cut the part than just trying to hold it!
I came into being machinist from a production CNC setup operator. I was fortunate to come into a startup evolving situation, my old crap worked, but now as we evolve, our requirements are precise. I have got a really good feel for flat large sheets. I got a good feel and learned tedious methods, and sometimes it's just not possible, and you must send it to the grinders / lappers. Good video!
I appreciate your videos very much. When I was an apprentice toolmaker in the late 80's I had to find these "tricks of the trade" out from the senior tool and die makers in the toolroom I worked in. We had one Maho CNC Mill that I was sent to school to learn programming for (since I was a young guy). Today I manage a small CNC shop for a small manufacturer. I design and develop all the machining operations myself, using some of these methods you are describing. Dealing with stresses in materials and maintaining flatness on parts is always a concern. The only problem I have with your video instructions is your use of the word "perfect". All of us with experience in the industry know that nothing is perfect in the machining world. Even down to the micron there will always be some variation from the required size.
Doing this right now as I make fixtures, made a pocket for miteebite pitbulls, clamp in the 6061 flat bar stock, surface, flip, surface, usually flat within a thou.
Double sided tape also works well. First, indicate part. It will most likely have a concave side and a convex side. Lay part on its concave side, make sure not to push plate down when setting on tape. Leave for a few minutes to help the tape adhesive set. Machine untill all low spots are removed. Flip and repeat. If done correctly 2-3 thou is easily achievable and 1 thou can be reached after a few flips. My plate was aluminum 12x18x.25 inch.
The best way to flatten aluminum stock ? Double sided tape . .001 flatness? How about .0004 or better . And a hell of a lot easier than setting up all those clamps. I once machined a 25x25” 7075 plate down from 1.5” stock to 30mm +- .01mm flat and parallel within .01mm with sticky tape. Also I use 2 machined risers, and not the table as there is too much surface area to get in the way. Flipping the part at least 10 times also is the key. All day process but faster than sending for grinding. Also the tool ? A 2” shear hog. Shell mills (depending on insert geo) tend to have too much surface pressure and can push the material around if not supported the entire surface.
I've done some questionable things using cloth double sided tape, but with a little experience and the right cutter geometry works the charm. A bit of daring, experience and a hawkeye are key to keeping it relatively safe when using things like a 30 inch flycutter.
When machining for flatness you are using the right clamps but there is one thing everyone needs to do is cut at 45 degree angle on your final cleanup pass, this well give flatness to .0002 - .0003 in flatness, just as note I have over 42 years programming experience, I can also machine thin metal parts to .010 -.015 thick in 3D shapes I have a process for that too.
Can you talk about machining thin walled cylinders on a lathe. I'm learning the lathes and have this problem. Material=Stainless steel OD=5.3" ID=5" Already tried lowering pressure Chuck.
@@mightydeathlash2867 Machine the ID first then put a arbor in the the bore then machine the OD. Just programmed and machined a few lathe parts with a wall thickness of .020. Parts came out perfect.
I think this is a superstition that is being proliferated by old manual guys. Since prototraks moved smoother when using both axes. I have gotten plate flat moving in x or y. I have not seen any difference. It's superstition. There is no evidence for that. If that was the case then the plate would bow as you are cutting in x or y alone. What difference does it make if you are still entering the cut and it takes a while of going back and forth across the entire part. You are still progressively machining it from one side to the other. The idea behind it is rubbish. There may be a benefit to machining from two different orientations based off of scallops alone but saying its better than moving in x or y makes me laugh.
Good advice, one of my customers has a few parts they needs held within a couple tenths flat. The rough/rough, finish/finish method is exactly how I get parts to print.
Very similar to how one would deal with tight tolerances when surface grinding. The heat will build up in the ends causing the piece to bow. A chiller will help but you still have go super slow at the end to avoid warping the piece. Patience is a valuable skill to have.
Awesome Advice you guys, you are definitely the Best at what you do and any person that wants to learn can learn from your unselfish advice . 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❤️👍👍👍👍👍
I used to machine 24 inch rings on a lathe with difference in ID vs Od was only about 2 inches. They were 3/4 inch thick and loved to vibrate under any kind of load. I figured out that changing the Rpm up and down during cut would actually stop the chatter and give a good finish. Not sure why it worked, it was terrible for the insert but it fixed the problem lol. Needless to say the boss was shocked but it ended up becoming part of the process.
The cheapest and most efficient way to flat skim cut 3/8" (1cm) or thicker aluminum plate metal is to glue it using cloth backed double sided tape. (Holding power is dependent on a number of factors; surface area, cutting tool type, material hardness and adhesive sheer. Also very handy holding technique when the stock is larger than the machine bed) Thinner materials can be superglued over a tape bed. There are other double-sided tape options that can allow thin aluminum sheet to be machined very thin. (fairly common method used in the aircraft industry) [ Usage history: On section and final aircraft assembly, interface unions between jigged assemblies have specifications (gapage) for min-max gap allowances to control distortions and stress. Our shop specialized in providing custom shims to meet those mechanical specifications to fit within the fixture targets and torque tolerances.]
With parts that have large surface areas you can use a weak contact adhesive to hold the part to the table. I have done thin Aluminium parts using this method and it works quite well provided you keep in mind the cutting forces.
I had to make a fixture plate right on a Mori Mill because the owner didn't have any other mills or money to buy one. I had to extend the X and Y axis and reset the parameter settings to accommodate the extra travel. And this was after I had to repair and put the machine together after it was still in crates after he bought it used. After all was said and done, I made a plate within .0002 flatness and with all the bolt holes he needed. He was very happy but I had to move on.
Nice to hear you talk about this, as I have a lot of experience in machining tricky stuff, as in keeping jobs in spec. Now a programmer I know the experience this takes so it’s good to see you talk about this kind of stuff. Levels to this game
perfect advise. i just had to lathe a very thin part (wall thinkness 0,04mm on 45mm length) and it was horrible. i was ab´le to get the 5 parts done but it took me way to long to do them. i'm not a lathe expert so i struggled a lot. had to make a piece of brass which i i could fit inside my part so it wont vibrate, still it was horrible and i lost a lot of money on those part.
When using a vice verses the dovetail I understand their is a lot more holding force because the same force is on a much smaller surface. If deep in a vice the pressure is spread out over more surface. So when using a dovetail is their a rule of thumb for starters if we are using a torque wrench in relation to the ability to hold the part in place.
You're confusing force and pressure. Changing the size of the clamping area doesn't change the force at all. Just because you're using a dovetail, with smaller surface area, doesn't mean there is more holding force, it's just an increase in pressure. It all depends on how much force you're exerting. Clamping something in a vise vs dovetail jaws (in the same vise with the same torque applied to the handle) will have the same force on both clamping methods. Only the clamping pressure will change. So no, there's not "a lot more holding force [on the dovetail]." Refer to the manufacturer's documentation for clamping torque. Leverage must also be considered. A 3" tall part in a dovetail will have more leverage than if it's buried in 2" deep vise jaws. 2.900" in the dovetail vs 1.000" in the vise. That's the main thing to consider.
Clamping large plate is tough. Apples and oranges comparison, but I've machined 1/4 degree wedges out of 12ga sheet metal for Cirrus Aircraft. Those were thin parts. Enjoy all your videos. Thanks.
I have a part with a flatness tolerance of +/- 0.01mm and im using double sided sticky tape as its stainless so the mag bed wouldn't work and we tried holding through the holes how he said and it worked but not very well, the sticky tape seems to be working though
I wonder. Would super-glue work in this situation? If you super glue the plate on another thicker plate, and then let it rest. Wouldn't the plate keep it's bow. And also the bow would get filled by the glue while it's still liquid, right? Is super glue not strong enough for the job? Or is the resulting mess just not worth it in general?
Thank you so much for this video. I have a thin wall part (circular part similar to a watch face) currently in the shop. The final wall thickness being 0.4mm (+/-0.025). We had quite a few test pieces with holes in the middle due to part deflection on clamping. Still trying to solve it. The main problem with the part is that there is very little material to clamp onto. The final thickness has to be achieved from a blank which has just about 0.5mm straight edge on its circumference. Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Ive used vacuum plates alot they are a pain have to be careful not to push to hard otherwise bye bye part. I tryed explaining this situation to my boss that when you clamp on vice it bows in the middle we mainly done alu and delorin some parts had to be 2mm exact was a pain in the ass trying not to make bananas. Also if your not pushing to much double sided sticky tape works well used it on a custom camera housing and made a block to stick it to.
I recently had to cut an aluminum plate 6061 flat starting 1" thick down to .680 with lighting pockets .600 deep 2 feet long 1.5 feet wide. What is the best way to process a job in the fastest way possible? Should I have roughed the pockets early in the beginning? I got the plate done, but it took me a long time cutting. O10 per-side until it was flat. What's the trick?
Try to achieve flatness to couple of thousands when your brand new machine DNM6700 is measuring 0.002" out across the Y axis and told it's within manufacturers tolerance.
It’s good. Right now I am focused on teaching the most people possible on a great software and so Mastercam has the most users etc. Mastercam also made a Titan deal for multiaxis software with the post etc for $160 which is great for many who would never have learned otherwise.
You beat me to it. If you give all the important features you have to machine some allowance you can machine everything perfect in accordance with the flat top and bottom surfaces.
True, but even a magnetic chuck table can allow for spring in the material as well. Phil Kerner did a video about this a while ago talking about a part that needed to be flat to .001. So they put it on the grinder of course because that's the proper machine for tight flatness tolerances but they wasted and scrapped parts with the parts bowing out after the magnet was released. He put the part of the milling machine and it was done and to spec with a different working holding strategy.
Isn´t the stress by clamping down with the mighty-bites still there at least at the edges? So if one edge of the Material was bowed up naturaly, it would still be clamped down and spring up again after machining. Sure better than vacuum, bit still not great, right?
This is why he uses an indicator. You clamp it until the indicator starts to move, and always make sure it move less than the tolerance. When you release the part and it springs back, the spring back is less than spec.
Stuart is a shop supervisor at a CNC Shop in California. He is doing great. Because of a family situation he had to move back… He is a great friend and still a part of our family.
gggrrr ^^ im so jealous about your chance to be professional at that level in italy, tuscany everybody work with this mentality "tira a far ciccia" "pulls to make meat\flesh" dont waste time, just produce and ship out they dont think about exellence and then there are problems like unpaid works LoL
It's a KIND day when a KINDRED has a problem that is solved by REAL people with REAL jobs in the REAL world ,that's a KKRRR DAY 🤓 keep on keeping on Titan 🎨⚓
Yes, not introducing stress by clamping is important. The live center on the lathe or the magnetic chuck on the surface grinder can do the same, bending the part into the "correct" shape while machining and spring back after release
Moldmaker trick: Shim it.
With the part on the vacuum chuck/mag-plate, indicate it at various points to see where it moves, and shim under those points. Then when you re-clamp on it, it has support.
Surburban tool has an excellent video on dealing with the bowing with surface grinding using residual magnetism, to eliminate the issue of pulling bowed parts flat
I love to see dedication!
I always took raw stock, laud it on a surface plate and used my indicator to measure the rocking, then for OP1 I placed shim stock underneath it in the places I marked.
In metal it is sometimes difficult to hold flatness, as you remove material it creates stress and removes a layer of grain structure that is holding the material in it's current shape.
But little by little flipping it over, you can sneak up on it and BOOM💥 flatness is attained.
Ha ha yes I said BOOM 💥
I do enjoy the heavy engineering I do now but I also miss the high precision stuff at times
Im sure it goes both ways. Been doing aerospace work for 7+ years now, where seeing a +/- 0.0002" tolerance on a mill isnt too rare, and you start to get into the "Gotta keep the spindle idle when i go on lunch else it'll cool down and cut a few tenths less depth" etc etc. Sometimes makes you wish you could experience OPEN tolerances.. xD
@jamie allen I use to do high precision batch work...1000 job runoffs of jobs that weighed about half a pound...now most jobs are multiple tonnes with the heaviest been 51
I've machined long and thin plate parts, my boss has always been the type of person to want to apply a lot of pressure to hold it down and every time I release the part it bends upwards. The key is to machine without pressure. Great video.
One thing you should mention is that the "scale" or finish from the supplier holds a stronger memory than the rest of the material. I always "qualify" my stock by facing one side and getting square edges. This ensures that when you flip it you face it off and it can relax this stress from the scale. You will have much better luck doing this especially on flat plate stock. Since the grain lines are along the length of the plate if there is stress it will move a lot. Round stock has cylindrical grain lines and is super stable. Also if you need flatness you can hot glue around the profile of the part. If you face the fixture super flat. you can then scotch bright it for more surface area and then clean with acetone. If there is zero coolant/greese and the fixture is prepared this way you would be amazed at how much hot glue can hold on to. 3m makes some crazy foam double sided tape that i used to use. I would face off a 12" x 12" plate going 12000rpm's at 200ipm cutting .025-.05 deep with a 50% step over and the plate wouldn't move! It blew my mind every time i did it. You can get things so flat with glue and tape since there is zero pressure. I have gotten copper plates as flat as .0001 over about an area 1" x 1".
I'm working in aerospace industry as well and those techniques have been bread and butter for many years now👍
I remember as a young trainee when I first discovered that when milling the surface of relatively long flat piece of steel like 6 x 1 x 0.25 of an inch in a vice across the short edge with multiple cuts over the whole surface instead of one long cut across the long edge does not made the part bend. Those plates have inner fibers in particular direction and that's the magic.
This is one of the first things I learned as a machinist. My mentor taught me these exact things, especially the part about using vaccume fixture to make thin plates flat. Gotta keep it in a free state.
I am a mechanical design engeneer and one "trick" that I like to help out the machinist is to put a big chamfer on the part if that does not mess up the function or design. Than in machining the part can be hold with those small dovetails or mitee-bites clamps. The chamfer operation removes the dovetail or the clamping marks and there is no need to deck the part of at all.
torque wrenches are incredibly important for repeatability and accuracy. even for parts that aren't thin at all. i had small part, second op. little rectangle with 2 holes in it, and depending on how i clamped it i would actually get about .05 mm of difference, it was a pretty loose tolerance, like .2 mm but finding a way to clamp the part down consistently helped me get it within about .005 mm every time
Nice. I really like the dovetail work holding. I’ve found that of all the skills to learn with both cnc and manual machining, work holding is the keystone of it all. Having confidence that the part will stay put always makes a huge difference for me while I’m programming and eases the anxiety when I hit start for the first time on a new part. I’m always looking for new ideas and especially ones that can be standardized. Spend more mental energy on the best way to cut the part than just trying to hold it!
I came into being machinist from a production CNC setup operator. I was fortunate to come into a startup evolving situation, my old crap worked, but now as we evolve, our requirements are precise. I have got a really good feel for flat large sheets. I got a good feel and learned tedious methods, and sometimes it's just not possible, and you must send it to the grinders / lappers. Good video!
I appreciate your videos very much. When I was an apprentice toolmaker in the late 80's I had to find these "tricks of the trade" out from the senior tool and die makers in the toolroom I worked in. We had one Maho CNC Mill that I was sent to school to learn programming for (since I was a young guy). Today I manage a small CNC shop for a small manufacturer. I design and develop all the machining operations myself, using some of these methods you are describing. Dealing with stresses in materials and maintaining flatness on parts is always a concern. The only problem I have with your video instructions is your use of the word "perfect". All of us with experience in the industry know that nothing is perfect in the machining world. Even down to the micron there will always be some variation from the required size.
Doing this right now as I make fixtures, made a pocket for miteebite pitbulls, clamp in the 6061 flat bar stock, surface, flip, surface, usually flat within a thou.
Double sided tape also works well. First, indicate part. It will most likely have a concave side and a convex side. Lay part on its concave side, make sure not to push plate down when setting on tape. Leave for a few minutes to help the tape adhesive set. Machine untill all low spots are removed. Flip and repeat. If done correctly 2-3 thou is easily achievable and 1 thou can be reached after a few flips. My plate was aluminum 12x18x.25 inch.
The best way to flatten aluminum stock ? Double sided tape . .001 flatness? How about .0004 or better . And a hell of a lot easier than setting up all those clamps. I once machined a 25x25” 7075 plate down from 1.5” stock to 30mm +- .01mm flat and parallel within .01mm with sticky tape. Also I use 2 machined risers, and not the table as there is too much surface area to get in the way. Flipping the part at least 10 times also is the key. All day process but faster than sending for grinding. Also the tool ? A 2” shear hog. Shell mills (depending on insert geo) tend to have too much surface pressure and can push the material around if not supported the entire surface.
I've done some questionable things using cloth double sided tape, but with a little experience and the right cutter geometry works the charm. A bit of daring, experience and a hawkeye are key to keeping it relatively safe when using things like a 30 inch flycutter.
When machining for flatness you are using the right clamps but there is one thing everyone needs to do is cut at 45 degree angle on your final cleanup pass, this well give flatness to .0002 - .0003 in flatness, just as note I have over 42 years programming experience, I can also machine thin metal parts to .010 -.015 thick in 3D shapes I have a process for that too.
Can you talk about machining thin walled cylinders on a lathe. I'm learning the lathes and have this problem.
Material=Stainless steel
OD=5.3"
ID=5"
Already tried lowering pressure Chuck.
@@mightydeathlash2867 Machine the ID first then put a arbor in the the bore then machine the OD. Just programmed and machined a few lathe parts with a wall thickness of .020. Parts came out perfect.
@@luisbautista8229 I really appreciate your input, thank you.
I think this is a superstition that is being proliferated by old manual guys. Since prototraks moved smoother when using both axes. I have gotten plate flat moving in x or y. I have not seen any difference. It's superstition. There is no evidence for that. If that was the case then the plate would bow as you are cutting in x or y alone. What difference does it make if you are still entering the cut and it takes a while of going back and forth across the entire part. You are still progressively machining it from one side to the other. The idea behind it is rubbish. There may be a benefit to machining from two different orientations based off of scallops alone but saying its better than moving in x or y makes me laugh.
I love these videos. I havn't been on a machine in going on 7 years. I miss it so.
U wanna job?
Good advice, one of my customers has a few parts they needs held within a couple tenths flat. The rough/rough, finish/finish method is exactly how I get parts to print.
Very similar to how one would deal with tight tolerances when surface grinding. The heat will build up in the ends causing the piece to bow. A chiller will help but you still have go super slow at the end to avoid warping the piece. Patience is a valuable skill to have.
Awesome Advice you guys, you are definitely the Best at what you do and any person that wants to learn can learn from your unselfish advice . 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❤️👍👍👍👍👍
Double sided tape and even super glue in some cases for surface grinding and light machining works a treat.
this is pure GOLD
I used to machine 24 inch rings on a lathe with difference in ID vs Od was only about 2 inches. They were 3/4 inch thick and loved to vibrate under any kind of load. I figured out that changing the Rpm up and down during cut would actually stop the chatter and give a good finish. Not sure why it worked, it was terrible for the insert but it fixed the problem lol. Needless to say the boss was shocked but it ended up becoming part of the process.
The cheapest and most efficient way to flat skim cut 3/8" (1cm) or thicker aluminum plate metal is to glue it using cloth backed double sided tape.
(Holding power is dependent on a number of factors; surface area, cutting tool type, material hardness and adhesive sheer. Also very handy holding technique when the stock is larger than the machine bed)
Thinner materials can be superglued over a tape bed. There are other double-sided tape options that can allow thin aluminum sheet to be machined very thin. (fairly common method used in the aircraft industry)
[ Usage history: On section and final aircraft assembly, interface unions between jigged assemblies have specifications (gapage) for min-max gap allowances to control distortions and stress. Our shop specialized in providing custom shims to meet those mechanical specifications to fit within the fixture targets and torque tolerances.]
With parts that have large surface areas you can use a weak contact adhesive to hold the part to the table. I have done thin Aluminium parts using this method and it works quite well provided you keep in mind the cutting forces.
I had to make a fixture plate right on a Mori Mill because the owner didn't have any other mills or money to buy one. I had to extend the X and Y axis and reset the parameter settings to accommodate the extra travel. And this was after I had to repair and put the machine together after it was still in crates after he bought it used. After all was said and done, I made a plate within .0002 flatness and with all the bolt holes he needed. He was very happy but I had to move on.
Nice to hear you talk about this, as I have a lot of experience in machining tricky stuff, as in keeping jobs in spec. Now a programmer I know the experience this takes so it’s good to see you talk about this kind of stuff. Levels to this game
perfect advise. i just had to lathe a very thin part (wall thinkness 0,04mm on 45mm length) and it was horrible. i was ab´le to get the 5 parts done but it took me way to long to do them. i'm not a lathe expert so i struggled a lot. had to make a piece of brass which i i could fit inside my part so it wont vibrate, still it was horrible and i lost a lot of money on those part.
I been machine swiss lathes for 20 yrs and still would love to work for this company
When using a vice verses the dovetail I understand their is a lot more holding force because the same force is on a much smaller surface. If deep in a vice the pressure is spread out over more surface. So when using a dovetail is their a rule of thumb for starters if we are using a torque wrench in relation to the ability to hold the part in place.
You're confusing force and pressure. Changing the size of the clamping area doesn't change the force at all. Just because you're using a dovetail, with smaller surface area, doesn't mean there is more holding force, it's just an increase in pressure. It all depends on how much force you're exerting. Clamping something in a vise vs dovetail jaws (in the same vise with the same torque applied to the handle) will have the same force on both clamping methods. Only the clamping pressure will change. So no, there's not "a lot more holding force [on the dovetail]." Refer to the manufacturer's documentation for clamping torque. Leverage must also be considered. A 3" tall part in a dovetail will have more leverage than if it's buried in 2" deep vise jaws. 2.900" in the dovetail vs 1.000" in the vise. That's the main thing to consider.
Clamping large plate is tough. Apples and oranges comparison, but I've machined 1/4 degree wedges out of 12ga sheet metal for Cirrus Aircraft. Those were thin parts.
Enjoy all your videos.
Thanks.
You are max 99,9% perfect flat. You lift the tool during processing. Thus, the accuracy of the machine gives it a great influence.
Yeah usually when we get something with parallel and flatness callouts like that we have it surfaced ground it’s just easier
Dude, Well Done.
I have a part with a flatness tolerance of +/- 0.01mm and im using double sided sticky tape as its stainless so the mag bed wouldn't work and we tried holding through the holes how he said and it worked but not very well, the sticky tape seems to be working though
I wonder. Would super-glue work in this situation?
If you super glue the plate on another thicker plate, and then let it rest. Wouldn't the plate keep it's bow. And also the bow would get filled by the glue while it's still liquid, right?
Is super glue not strong enough for the job? Or is the resulting mess just not worth it in general?
A dial indicator in the middle! Holy shit I want to dance I'm so happy to learn this. How on earth I've never thought of that. Woo hoo! 😅😅😅👍👍
I remember surfacing 16x16 1/4 6061 on double face tape. No coolant. 0.001 at a time. Fun times. It would float on the marble i could spin it.
Machinists get up early. 2500 views by 6 am.
We all start at 430.
It's true
It's worldwide friends. I watch from Turkey here 3.40 pm.
Thanks for the support and watching. Have a Blessed Day🤙
@4:40 "Re Titan" 😎 As always awesome videos with real world usable tips! 😁
Thank you so much for this video. I have a thin wall part (circular part similar to a watch face) currently in the shop. The final wall thickness being 0.4mm (+/-0.025). We had quite a few test pieces with holes in the middle due to part deflection on clamping. Still trying to solve it. The main problem with the part is that there is very little material to clamp onto. The final thickness has to be achieved from a blank which has just about 0.5mm straight edge on its circumference.
Would love to know your thoughts on this.
Join our Facebook private group and tag me into the post and I will give my thoughts. Not sure if you can share pictures. Many others will help also.
@val milos Machinist's are often the recipient of bad engineering.
Take that job and send it back. Lol done
Ive used vacuum plates alot they are a pain have to be careful not to push to hard otherwise bye bye part. I tryed explaining this situation to my boss that when you clamp on vice it bows in the middle we mainly done alu and delorin some parts had to be 2mm exact was a pain in the ass trying not to make bananas. Also if your not pushing to much double sided sticky tape works well used it on a custom camera housing and made a block to stick it to.
I recently had to cut an aluminum plate 6061 flat starting 1" thick down to .680 with lighting pockets .600 deep 2 feet long 1.5 feet wide. What is the best way to process a job in the fastest way possible? Should I have roughed the pockets early in the beginning? I got the plate done, but it took me a long time cutting. O10 per-side until it was flat. What's the trick?
I like the dovetail idea. What do you think about the need to let some materials like aluminum relax for a few days after roughing prior to finishing?
That scratch in the fresh stock hurts my heart
A Blanchard makes quick work of those operations!
Try to achieve flatness to couple of thousands when your brand new machine DNM6700 is measuring 0.002" out across the Y axis and told it's within manufacturers tolerance.
Great tips! Thanks for sharing your noledge!
Hints for thin wall on the lathe, please. Both parallel and angled.
Machining now 36yrs, we do this on a daily basis, just tape it!
I know all these tricks but I continue to watch because I don't know all of THE tricks. After 20 years I've learned that you're never done learning.
ARCONIC. that was my old company. They were Howmet when I left
I prefer Interapid indicators, but Mitutoyo will do if you can't afford Swiss made. 😂
When I first got into machining, I never realized how difficult it is to reach flatness.
One question, how are you going to release that part from the super glue without leveraging and damaging?
Hi Titan, I have a question. ¿What do you think about Siemens Nx and why you dont use it?
maybe price is the answer?
It’s good. Right now I am focused on teaching the most people possible on a great software and so Mastercam has the most users etc. Mastercam also made a Titan deal for multiaxis software with the post etc for $160 which is great for many who would never have learned otherwise.
I've never seen the clamps shown at the start of the video. What are they called and who makes them?
Surface grinder and magnetic table on milling machine will be less tricky
You beat me to it. If you give all the important features you have to machine some allowance you can machine everything perfect in accordance with the flat top and bottom surfaces.
True, but even a magnetic chuck table can allow for spring in the material as well. Phil Kerner did a video about this a while ago talking about a part that needed to be flat to .001. So they put it on the grinder of course because that's the proper machine for tight flatness tolerances but they wasted and scrapped parts with the parts bowing out after the magnet was released. He put the part of the milling machine and it was done and to spec with a different working holding strategy.
On the first part, why didn't you clamp it at the centre-line, or close to it? Less bowing for the same amount of clamping..
Isn´t the stress by clamping down with the mighty-bites still there at least at the edges? So if one edge of the Material was bowed up naturaly, it would still be clamped down and spring up again after machining. Sure better than vacuum, bit still not great, right?
This is why he uses an indicator. You clamp it until the indicator starts to move, and always make sure it move less than the tolerance. When you release the part and it springs back, the spring back is less than spec.
The mitee bits don't clamp down. They push sideways.
@@TritonTv69420 as far as i know, that's not true. They do both.
try T.I.G. welding on 1/16th stainless.
what if u have holes to do and even x and y to make it on measure ?
We have to shim thin parts when we grind them on a blanchard. The new guy didn't know. They looked flat until he demagnetized the table. 😂
Dont you pack or shim the plate underneath before clamping?
No just leave it in its free state and put minimal pressure from the sides…
I dont tend to do much production work. I'm in the heavy machining trade using Correa with heidenhein controls but I'm a fan of your work.
All the way across the pond in England by the way 😁🤩
Thanks …. Good stuff …
Nice work
I’m surprise to here him say that .001 flat and parallel is “perfect”. At my shop we routinely hold .0002” over 45”.
BOOM BOOM BOOM
What are those clamps called?
01:00 where is he right now??? Nowadays we can't see him in ur shop...
Stuart is a shop supervisor at a CNC Shop in California. He is doing great. Because of a family situation he had to move back… He is a great friend and still a part of our family.
@@TITANSofCNC Tnq Mr. titan... Pls add subtitle(in english)in ur videos..
I feel bad for the bearings whenever i see the table moving back and forth rapidly
Woooooow. That’s next level……
I feel educated
gggrrr ^^
im so jealous about your chance to be professional at that level
in italy, tuscany
everybody
work with this mentality
"tira a far ciccia"
"pulls to make meat\flesh"
dont waste time, just produce and ship out
they dont think about exellence
and then there are problems like unpaid works
LoL
3/8" tool doing 4.4in³/min. you could do that on a tormach, except this is a DMG.......
BOOM!
But why not just surface grind it parallel then machine from there
Wrong you can put shims in the bowed area then suck down
every time you say something with 18thousends I dont have any feeling for how much that is. sure I could look it up 0.018in in mm but who does that?
This video is more about FLAT parts than THIN parts...
MIC 6 is supposed to be FLAT, and DEAD. If it's not, send it back... The stuff cost too much to not get what you're paying for.
Materral.
Boom
It's a KIND day when a KINDRED has a problem that is solved by REAL people with REAL jobs in the REAL world ,that's a KKRRR DAY 🤓 keep on keeping on Titan 🎨⚓
now try with some shitty stainless steel that bends in every direction possible if you remove 0.1mm