Dude... Just the concept of where the slack should go is fundamental. I didn't know how to ask that kind of top-level question for ever. I appreciate the broad and specific info. Amazing
Beginner here. Thanks so much for your videos, I've watched them all! This video inspired me to buy a stageblock with both enough mic inputs and monitor outputs (we use separate buses with active wedges) to clean up the upstage mess and it worked so much better. We then put through the multi cable under the podium. Now we need to get shorter mic cables as previously we would run all lines separately to the mixer in a big taped off line.
I need every single musician I know to watch this video. I think all of us have been guilty of making unnecessary messes with cabling (sometimes on those throw-and-go shows I still find myself not taking the proper time to make it clean-bad habit I know), and these concepts are dead simple and, as you said, don’t cost a dime. Honestly, they’ll save you money in the long run when your cables aren’t getting destroyed from people tripping and stepping on them constantly.
I can't thank you enough for making all these videos. I highly recommend anyone doing stage hand work or sound to watch this channel- great training vid for new hires as well
A "clean" stage also helps your cables last longer due to not being walked on. Walking on "coiled" cable increases the potential for damage to the cable.
Thanks again Alan, all your videos have so much useful information. I now use aux fed subs all the time, send my vocals pre EQ to the monitors and EQ my kick drum following your advice. I also played with the reverb decay time for a nicer drum effect. You’re one of the good things that came out from the COVID shut down! Sergio
Thanks for these tips. As a hybrid user (digital mixer for FoH, analog mixer for multimedia, and snakes) it help me manage cables, especially for drums and wired mic for vocals. Not clean as yours but it helps managing to minimal as it should be. Its fun to watch your videos and implement it as max as I can.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Hy Alan, would you like to make video about measurement for accoustic?? I just wanna bought Behringer measurement mic and using it, some people just doing it on their X32 because it has the feature, how about XR18?? Did I need to measurement it from my Speaker Manangement System?? Thnaks. Did you have some instagram or social media??
We have individual "snakes" for every performer, mic, DI, and monitor cables zip-tied together, labeled, and color coded. Works great until one of the XLR's goes bad.
I'm going to try and do some more of these general production tips videos now that things are hopping again on the calendar. It's giving the opportunity to see things I think would make good topics, and there should be some opportunities to grab some show video eventually when it's not a hectic in/up/out schedule like many things are right now.
Great video, thanks! What about power cabling? Didn't see much of it in this video.. Do your power cabling before signal cabling? Can you run power and mic/line cables alongside each other with no risk of inducing hum etc..? Tips from a pro is always appreciated! :)
While I wouldn't place the snake on top of the PD, I wouldn't sweat running standard AC and mic cables together when that is the most practical option. For years people have been marrying the FOH multipair snake to an AC cable with no issues. While 'best practices' is to keep AC and mic lines separate, reality is for a modern system with balanced mic lines you're not very likely to have an issue with stage AC and mic cables when aesthetics and practicality come into play.
Balanced signals like XLR won't give any problem but mono unbalanced signals like those on guitar cables may pick up interference especially when the cable is extra long and coiled. Best option is use a DI for these signals.
Most of this is true, however, I run AC power from one side of the stage, and run audio from the other side keeping the cable overlaps at a 90 degree angle to minimize induction fed AC hum in the audio lines. This is more important with the mic cables than line level from the snake to amps. Yes, it is more work, but the less hum introduced, the less you have to EQ it out. Another tip, use as many wall outlets you can find, it will give you less headache later and make blowing a breaker less likely. Always tape the cables down, this prevents tripping and possibly pulling your and the bands expensive equipment to the ground. Use color coding with numbers or initials of band members for your tape at BOTH ends of your run for, AC power, MIC cables, return to amp cables, and low signal from instruments, if there is an issue, it helps with troubleshooting. Wireless is a great way to minimize cable runs, use for vocals. Use wired for instrument miking since they are stationary. Just my two cents worth.
While it's good practice to not run mic lines and AC together, in reality there's little point in it when avoiding it causes logistical issues. While I wouldn't run mic lines thru dimmer-beach, I wouldn't sweat running DS mic lines and DS power parallel to each other. I wouldn't make big coils of AC per se'... but straight, parallel runs, are rarely if ever a real-world problem. Only a theoretical one. Concerts, large and small, have ran their analog snakes together with power married to the snake cable for years. The biggest tours have done and do it that way every single day. From one circuit of power to multiple circuits, even 3phase... all married to the snake cable. If 40 pr... 60 pr... and even many more multi-pair channel snakes can coexist with power cables literally bound to that same cable for 200'-300' feet at an arena show, then running a few DS mic cables along the edge of the stage beside a power cable will simply, rarely if ever, create any kind of problem.
Talking about wireless, sometimes bodypack transmitters (the black boxes that're typically used with lavalier mics) are better substitute of DI boxes if they're fitted with 1/4" TS adapter cables. No wiring mess, no movement restraints, perfect ground noise isolation. They're especially suitable for acoustic guitarists and Keytar players, enabling them to move freely across the whole stage while playing.
Thanks! I think I probably should do one along the same lines about band changeovers, and how musicians and techs can get on/off the stage efficiently. Festival patches... stage zones... Not breaking things like drums down on stage...
It’s the basics that are the most important. There are some very fancy, expensive, impressive looking/ sounding tools that are rendered a lot less necessary by applying good setup, good cable wrapping, good gain staging, good speaker setup and understanding of phase, etc. I’m going to use this video for my students for sure.
alan - did you check fan direction for qsc and crown?... the qscs might be drawing in hot air... just a thought. Also I use white Etape for labelling, i seems to leave the least amount of residue if accidentally left on.
The amps are front to rear cooling. Exhaust on rear. Open back rack. That's really on the rack that has mixed amp brands in it. I was going to load it with all Crown, but never got that prject completed. I keep white e-Tape in my Pelican, and a spike tape of different colors... along with a good collection of Sharpies! :) Board tape works well for not leaving residue too... But part of that might be it finally comes off on its own when used on cable ends that get used frequently... wet... hot... cold... touched... ;)
I/O Rack Panel or knockout rack panel- Look for this: Penn-Elcom R1273/2UK Rack Panel For EP/XLR or Middle Atlantic Products UNI-1 Universal Knockout Panel PartsExpress.com should have these or similar.
Hi Allan, not sure if this is something you’ve done already but would you be able to give your take on how you would split your signal to use the XR18 as an in ear mixing system while sound also goes to FOH?
@@AlanHamiltonAudio that would be so great! I’m torn between the art S8, the behringer MS8000 and a seismic audio snake so I can’t wait to see your feedback! Thanks for all of the helpful tips!
Lots of options depending on the application. I'd only use gaffa tape for taping cables across paths. Even then, ideally use a rubber mat, cable ramp or carpet tile and tape that to the floor. I don't like gaffa tape touching cables if it can be avoided. I'd also recommend holding the cable down with your foot while pulling the tape up when removing it. It stops the tape wrapping round the cable - no ones ever going to stop and remove the tape when that happens. Electrical tape is good for marking desks for a show or two. You can also get label printers for installs, or magnetic labels for common channel names. Of course, digital desks are great if you have the budget. Masking tape is bad as it doesn't come off. For storing cables, I love velcro cable ties, or even releasable cable ties. They probably only last a year or two, but less mess. Better quality tapes leave less goo, but its never really a permanent option. 3m or scotch are probably best.
Use 3M (matt) tape. Many venues won't let you tape down with anything else, and yes if you aren't some massive staging outfit try and reroll/recycle as much of the long runs as possible. It'll usually be sticky enough for another use. The cost of tape adds up.
Howdy... Consider using coloured tape for cable marking, 2 bands of tape can give 100 unique identifiers that can be read from a great distance. Radio is a mighty fine tool for tidying cables. Offense is the best from of defense. At 1:37 the engineer failed to complete the task. Kicking the rats nest under the case tidies up nicely. One of these suggestions isn't like the others, one of these suggestions isn't the same..... 0:54 yay XR18, boo Behringer are being stubborn about implementing dual mono eq on main output.
Well, kicking the rat's nest of cables under a case (or some soft goods) at 1:37 might've seemed to be an answer to making that 'look' neater, but the rat's nest is still there when done that way. It's not just about looks. It's very hard to troubleshoot a line when it travels into a rat's nest like that. That's why the advice in the video is to start pinning at the snake and take the slack to the source (mic, DI...). That way there's isn't that growing rat's nest at the snake in the first place. And just one neat coil near the mic or DI. Plus, if anything is likely to move and need the slack, it's the mic or DI... not the snake. Without the excess slack at the snake, not only do you then not need to hide it, but you avoided it entirely. And if you need to chase a line back to the snake, it's much easier to sort it out when it's not inter-mingled with 20-30 other mic cables with all of their slack living at the snake. Tape is a great idea for marking lines.
You can’t insert a dual mono eq on mains on xr18? I’ve only used one a little bit, but I know on the x32 the dual eq in the fx rack can be routed for the mains. Maybe xr18 doesn’t have that option, but I thought they had the same effects selection, just 4 rack slots instead of 8.
@@mrufino1 XAir app dosent show fx insert for bus or main. Mixing Station app shows it, but there is no way to set each channel separately. If I reassign one channel of the fx rack to an input, the entire fx disappears from the main. Of note, I had a look at the api regarding valid control sentences, for main bus there is only 1 set of geq values (ie stereo only)
@@dougaltolan3017 weird, I didn’t realize that. Good to know. I was using mixing station when I used the xr18, but didn’t look at the fx rack at all. Does the xr18 have matrix mixes? If so, you could use matrixes for your main (which is what I do on mixers that allow it) rather then feeding matrixes from a main. In that case you might be able to use dual mono. I don’t come across the need for separate channels of eq on my mains, but everyone has different processes that work for them and always good to learn about other people’s workflows to get new ideas. I did accidentally have a dual mono eq on my mains when using an x32 and realized eventually that I wasn’t digging the sound I was getting because I was only affecting one side of the PA…I didn’t realize at the time the dual eq didn’t link channels if they were from the same send (which is the point). Thankfully it was a learning experience.
Have you ever experienced any issues with running mic cables, speaker cables, and AC/power cables in close proximity/parallel to each other? According to the classic Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, if mic cables (low-level signals) have to intersect speaker or AC cables (high-level signals), they should intersect at 90-degree angles to prevent noise from being introduced into the mic lines. That would make what you are suggesting here (2 cable paths for all on-stage cabling) virtually impossible.
In the real world of live audio, running mic cables and AC cables together happens all of the time. And these days you even find pre-built power and audio or power and DMX cables (both cables permanently married to each other) easily available. While in a theoretical sense, it's possible that having power and mic lines running together can cause noise, in a practical sense it's either negligible or non-existent in normal circumstances. I also need to make the point that we're talking about balanced and shielded cables (like pro XLR mic lines) and not instrument cables here as well. With speaker cables, while not balanced nor shielded, the signal being sent down the cable to passive speakers is not the same as a low level instrument cable. So again, it becomes a non-issue. At this point, you can look at a lot of concert history since large scale concert touring and production became a thing (from clubs to arenas to stadiums) some 50 years ago, and one constant you'll see is huge multipair cables with MANY channels of mic/DI lines coming from the stage to FOH. Easily 300'... And married to that cable will be a large AC feed for FOH. Not just one circuit either... 2, even 3 circuits... even 3 phase. And other lines running down that same path, like video, coms, DMX... Obviously, digital is now a factor to be considered and those behemoth multipair snake cables aren't the only way that audio signals are transferred from the stage to FOH these days... But the point still remains. So if 300'+ of mic lines carrying everything from the stage to FOH can be ran cleanly from the stage to FOH with AC in that same parallel path, then a few feet onstage isn't going to make any difference. Now, this is different than setting a coil of mic line and a poorly shielded DI on top of a tube bass amp. Or putting your snake box on top of the dimmer rack (or directly beside it). And I'm sure some people have done that, gotten noise, then in moving things around, they 'fixed' that problem by rerouting a bunch of cables. But it wasn't the cables running parallel to an AC line that was the actual issue but in rerouting the cables they also moved the things that WERE causing the noise symptom. So, the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook is not wrong, in a theoretical sense. But it's also not practical in real-world applications in this case either. When chasing down a noise, it's something to keep in mind I suppose, but in years of production work the number of times that I've ran into it being because of AC and audio cables running parallel is zero. In this case, the Yamaha handbook needs to add some caveats that address real-world and typical situations.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you so much for the thoughtful and thorough response! I always thought it seemed very impractical to cross high and low-level lines perpendicularly, and I've run such cables parallel and even bundled together in the past without an issue. Heck, they even make "powered snake" cables with mic and speaker lines in the same multi-core cable (which may not be a best practice, but I digress), and I've always thought that would be a huge no-no according to the Yamaha book. In any case, I'm pretty much a hobbyist when it comes to live sound, so I was curious to get some real-world advice from someone with a lot more experience than myself. Thanks again!
I prefer to use electrical tape. When it gets old, it's easier to remove the remnants than with board (artist's) tape or gaff tape. (Don't stretch electrical tape when applying.)
At 2:18 you have a speakon patchbay. Who knows how to build these or where I can order them already soldered so I can just connect to the back of the amp and mount it in the rack
I've been working on some shots for a video about making a Speakon patchbay. It has XLR inputs that don't require soldering, but the Speakon outputs do require soldering... or you can use crimp style disconnects. Like these: www.parts-express.com/Neutrik-NLFASTON-100-pcs.-Faston-Non-insulated-Quick-Disconnects-0.187-for-speakON-powerCO-092-2438?gadid=499069947558&gclid=Cj0KCQjworiXBhDJARIsAMuzAuzK98rZb5klXw5HKsKFmFvnUlkAgMI1Epo6O9tBqS7MqBTvJWJ1_OYaAuPSEALw_wcB I mention the I/O panel in this video below and link to the XLR connectors and generic panel in the text below that video. So it gives you a bit better look at it (it might 100% identical to the panel in the video above, but same basic idea): ua-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/v-deo.html
Regarding starting your cable at the mixer or snake position. While this is true with a regular coiled cable setup, when you use, and you should, Over/under coiling option you would start at the instrument position.
It's true whether the cable is over-undered or not. You don't want all of the slack landing at the snake in most cases. Nor do you want all of the speaker cable slack living at the amp rack(s). If it was one cable it wouldn't matter too much... but the amp rack and snake (and subsnakes) are choke points where a whole series of cables will be landing. If all those cables end up there with all of their slack, it creates a mess. Plus, neither the amp rack(s) or snake(s) are likely to move, yet the speakers might be flying out and need the slack, and the mics and backline could get moved before everything is finalized. And that could also lead to wedges or sidefills getting moved. So that is where the slack needs to be. You can certainly stand at the mic and toss the cable out to unroll it if you want... but you grab the loose end and take it to the snake and backtrack to the mic or DI so the slack lives there by itself.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I know that... The concept with an over/under cable is to grab the end of the cable and move with it, in this case moving towards the snake which results in the same result. Over/under is standard in Japan and EU. My point being when you say start at the snake or mixer then this is not always the case. Coiled slack cable at the instrument is more accurate.
@@KimonoEtrange Yes, the goal is to have the slack not live at the snake or amps. That is a bad habit some people have and your reply could've been interpreted as telling them it was always OK to have all of the slack at the snake(s) or amp(s). As you probably know, some people can read or be shown 100 things telling them a proper end goal, but if they read even one thing that SEEMS to tell them their way is OK, then they will continue to do it their way, even if a mess of cables all intermingled at one chokepoint is the result.
Much of this take no more time to do it right than to do it wrong or without thought. And, many times it's ultimately taking longer to rush things because the resultant mess complicates things as setup goes along and slows you down. Example, wrong cable connected to a channel and you're hovering over the snake cable with the correct cable... But what IS connected to your channel? If everything is neat and orderly, it's generally easy to chase that wrong cable down and get it where it really goes. If it's in a mess of cable spaghetti, you have to decipher it. Many times double and triple-checking because you're still not sure you have the right cable and it didn't get crossed up somewhere. Meanwhile, it's just as quick to start at the snake as it is to start at the mic, but starting at the snake and taking slack to the mic or DI eliminates a rat's nest of cables eventually living at the snake (or mixer). And finally, having a consistent system for cable paths will also be quicker since everyone knows to do it every time. Maybe the first few times will be slower as old habits die hard, but ultimately the neater system will be quicker and easier to troubleshoot making it even faster in some situations.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio ur right but as ur saying about misconnection of cables i doubt. Because each and every cables are marked,tagged or number so don't need to hovering but i totally agree that work must be clean
Yes, cable paths should be condensed to minimize multiple runs (as few as logistically possible), and minimize or eliminate cables being subjected to foot traffic. Cable ramps, rugs, and/or gaffer's tape properly dressing cables where foot traffic can't be avoided.
Alan, this is a great refresher for those of us who are really getting back to work...
Thanks!!
Your welcome.
Dude... Just the concept of where the slack should go is fundamental. I didn't know how to ask that kind of top-level question for ever. I appreciate the broad and specific info. Amazing
Thanks!!
Beginner here. Thanks so much for your videos, I've watched them all! This video inspired me to buy a stageblock with both enough mic inputs and monitor outputs (we use separate buses with active wedges) to clean up the upstage mess and it worked so much better. We then put through the multi cable under the podium. Now we need to get shorter mic cables as previously we would run all lines separately to the mixer in a big taped off line.
Thanks for watching and commenting! :)
I need every single musician I know to watch this video. I think all of us have been guilty of making unnecessary messes with cabling (sometimes on those throw-and-go shows I still find myself not taking the proper time to make it clean-bad habit I know), and these concepts are dead simple and, as you said, don’t cost a dime. Honestly, they’ll save you money in the long run when your cables aren’t getting destroyed from people tripping and stepping on them constantly.
I can't thank you enough for making all these videos. I highly recommend anyone doing stage hand work or sound to watch this channel- great training vid for new hires as well
Thank you! :)
Got a small gig coming up so this was super helpful to watch. Thank you!!
Good luck!! Thanks for commenting!
A "clean" stage also helps your cables last longer due to not being walked on. Walking on "coiled" cable increases the potential for damage to the cable.
Definitely, not to mention tripped over and/or yanked on as they get caught on other cables and pieces of gear.
Great point.
Thank you! This should be automatic for audio folks, but it seems to be at a premium. Attention to detail separates the pros from the pretenders.
Thanks again Alan, all your videos have so much useful information. I now use aux fed subs all the time, send my vocals pre EQ to the monitors and EQ my kick drum following your advice. I also played with the reverb decay time for a nicer drum effect. You’re one of the good things that came out from the COVID shut down!
Sergio
Glad to help! :)
Thanks for these tips.
As a hybrid user (digital mixer for FoH, analog mixer for multimedia, and snakes) it help me manage cables, especially for drums and wired mic for vocals.
Not clean as yours but it helps managing to minimal as it should be.
Its fun to watch your videos and implement it as max as I can.
Glad the videos help! Thanks for watching and commenting! :)
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Hy Alan, would you like to make video about measurement for accoustic??
I just wanna bought Behringer measurement mic and using it, some people just doing it on their X32 because it has the feature, how about XR18??
Did I need to measurement it from my Speaker Manangement System??
Thnaks.
Did you have some instagram or social media??
We have individual "snakes" for every performer, mic, DI, and monitor cables zip-tied together, labeled, and color coded. Works great until one of the XLR's goes bad.
Usually the time saved in all of the setups and strikes for organization like that makes the maintenance days worth it.
I love this channel. If you get time, can you make a tutorial soon giving some tips on how to EQ the master bus in a live setting
Thanks for the suggestion! I will write it down so I don't forget.
Love this type of video, Alan. Thanks!
I'm going to try and do some more of these general production tips videos now that things are hopping again on the calendar. It's giving the opportunity to see things I think would make good topics, and there should be some opportunities to grab some show video eventually when it's not a hectic in/up/out schedule like many things are right now.
I recommend electrical tape instead of gaff or board tape. If left on for a long time, e-tape remnants are much easier to remove.
Thanks Alan, this is really good
You're very welcome
These videos are absolute gold 😎👍🍻Cheers 🍻
Thanks! 🙂
Great video, thanks! What about power cabling? Didn't see much of it in this video.. Do your power cabling before signal cabling? Can you run power and mic/line cables alongside each other with no risk of inducing hum etc..? Tips from a pro is always appreciated! :)
While I wouldn't place the snake on top of the PD, I wouldn't sweat running standard AC and mic cables together when that is the most practical option. For years people have been marrying the FOH multipair snake to an AC cable with no issues. While 'best practices' is to keep AC and mic lines separate, reality is for a modern system with balanced mic lines you're not very likely to have an issue with stage AC and mic cables when aesthetics and practicality come into play.
Balanced signals like XLR won't give any problem but mono unbalanced signals like those on guitar cables may pick up interference especially when the cable is extra long and coiled. Best option is use a DI for these signals.
Most of this is true, however, I run AC power from one side of the stage, and run audio from the other side keeping the cable overlaps at a 90 degree angle to minimize induction fed AC hum in the audio lines. This is more important with the mic cables than line level from the snake to amps. Yes, it is more work, but the less hum introduced, the less you have to EQ it out. Another tip, use as many wall outlets you can find, it will give you less headache later and make blowing a breaker less likely. Always tape the cables down, this prevents tripping and possibly pulling your and the bands expensive equipment to the ground. Use color coding with numbers or initials of band members for your tape at BOTH ends of your run for, AC power, MIC cables, return to amp cables, and low signal from instruments, if there is an issue, it helps with troubleshooting.
Wireless is a great way to minimize cable runs, use for vocals. Use wired for instrument miking since they are stationary.
Just my two cents worth.
While it's good practice to not run mic lines and AC together, in reality there's little point in it when avoiding it causes logistical issues. While I wouldn't run mic lines thru dimmer-beach, I wouldn't sweat running DS mic lines and DS power parallel to each other.
I wouldn't make big coils of AC per se'... but straight, parallel runs, are rarely if ever a real-world problem. Only a theoretical one.
Concerts, large and small, have ran their analog snakes together with power married to the snake cable for years. The biggest tours have done and do it that way every single day. From one circuit of power to multiple circuits, even 3phase... all married to the snake cable.
If 40 pr... 60 pr... and even many more multi-pair channel snakes can coexist with power cables literally bound to that same cable for 200'-300' feet at an arena show, then running a few DS mic cables along the edge of the stage beside a power cable will simply, rarely if ever, create any kind of problem.
Talking about wireless, sometimes bodypack transmitters (the black boxes that're typically used with lavalier mics) are better substitute of DI boxes if they're fitted with 1/4" TS adapter cables. No wiring mess, no movement restraints, perfect ground noise isolation. They're especially suitable for acoustic guitarists and Keytar players, enabling them to move freely across the whole stage while playing.
1:36 when he just tossed the slack on top of the snake head 😆
I think he had too much fun doing that... LOL
great video very informative
Thanks!
Very basics but SUPER important to burn into your brain for this industry
Thanks! I think I probably should do one along the same lines about band changeovers, and how musicians and techs can get on/off the stage efficiently. Festival patches... stage zones... Not breaking things like drums down on stage...
@@AlanHamiltonAudio that’s a nice idea, it’s a bit niche ok but for us begineers in this job it’s great to have this !
It’s the basics that are the most important. There are some very fancy, expensive, impressive looking/ sounding tools that are rendered a lot less necessary by applying good setup, good cable wrapping, good gain staging, good speaker setup and understanding of phase, etc.
I’m going to use this video for my students for sure.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio And band member parking flow w/o a traffic jam. -) I like to have 2nd carpet off stage to pre stage drum kit.
Thank you
alan - did you check fan direction for qsc and crown?... the qscs might be drawing in hot air... just a thought. Also I use white Etape for labelling, i seems to leave the least amount of residue if accidentally left on.
The amps are front to rear cooling. Exhaust on rear. Open back rack. That's really on the rack that has mixed amp brands in it. I was going to load it with all Crown, but never got that prject completed.
I keep white e-Tape in my Pelican, and a spike tape of different colors... along with a good collection of Sharpies! :)
Board tape works well for not leaving residue too... But part of that might be it finally comes off on its own when used on cable ends that get used frequently... wet... hot... cold... touched... ;)
What is the proper name for the bottom rack piece that connect from the power amps to the front panel to hook up monitors and mains. Thanks
I/O Rack Panel or knockout rack panel-
Look for this: Penn-Elcom R1273/2UK Rack Panel For EP/XLR
or Middle Atlantic Products UNI-1 Universal Knockout Panel
PartsExpress.com should have these or similar.
How do you change your last name to Audio? I wanna be Vinnie Video!
Hi Allan, not sure if this is something you’ve done already but would you be able to give your take on how you would split your signal to use the XR18 as an in ear mixing system while sound also goes to FOH?
I've been working toward mocking a setup together for a video to show exactly that.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio that would be so great! I’m torn between the art S8, the behringer MS8000 and a seismic audio snake so I can’t wait to see your feedback! Thanks for all of the helpful tips!
ua-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/v-deo.html
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I saw it the second you released it! Was exactly what I was picturing in my head
the gaffers tape leaves a horrible residue after long usage... any way to prevent this?
About any tape will leave residue if you plan to leave it a long, long time before removing.
Lots of options depending on the application.
I'd only use gaffa tape for taping cables across paths. Even then, ideally use a rubber mat, cable ramp or carpet tile and tape that to the floor. I don't like gaffa tape touching cables if it can be avoided. I'd also recommend holding the cable down with your foot while pulling the tape up when removing it. It stops the tape wrapping round the cable - no ones ever going to stop and remove the tape when that happens.
Electrical tape is good for marking desks for a show or two. You can also get label printers for installs, or magnetic labels for common channel names. Of course, digital desks are great if you have the budget. Masking tape is bad as it doesn't come off.
For storing cables, I love velcro cable ties, or even releasable cable ties. They probably only last a year or two, but less mess.
Better quality tapes leave less goo, but its never really a permanent option. 3m or scotch are probably best.
Use 3M (matt) tape. Many venues won't let you tape down with anything else, and yes if you aren't some massive staging outfit try and reroll/recycle as much of the long runs as possible. It'll usually be sticky enough for another use.
The cost of tape adds up.
Next time I’m down I’d like for you to check out my rig. I think you’ll dig what I’m doing..
Cool! :)
Yes. This!
When i set up a delay line should i use an audio matrix or a mixbus?
Howdy...
Consider using coloured tape for cable marking, 2 bands of tape can give 100 unique identifiers that can be read from a great distance.
Radio is a mighty fine tool for tidying cables. Offense is the best from of defense.
At 1:37 the engineer failed to complete the task. Kicking the rats nest under the case tidies up nicely.
One of these suggestions isn't like the others, one of these suggestions isn't the same.....
0:54 yay XR18, boo Behringer are being stubborn about implementing dual mono eq on main output.
Well, kicking the rat's nest of cables under a case (or some soft goods) at 1:37 might've seemed to be an answer to making that 'look' neater, but the rat's nest is still there when done that way. It's not just about looks. It's very hard to troubleshoot a line when it travels into a rat's nest like that. That's why the advice in the video is to start pinning at the snake and take the slack to the source (mic, DI...). That way there's isn't that growing rat's nest at the snake in the first place. And just one neat coil near the mic or DI. Plus, if anything is likely to move and need the slack, it's the mic or DI... not the snake.
Without the excess slack at the snake, not only do you then not need to hide it, but you avoided it entirely. And if you need to chase a line back to the snake, it's much easier to sort it out when it's not inter-mingled with 20-30 other mic cables with all of their slack living at the snake.
Tape is a great idea for marking lines.
You can’t insert a dual mono eq on mains on xr18? I’ve only used one a little bit, but I know on the x32 the dual eq in the fx rack can be routed for the mains. Maybe xr18 doesn’t have that option, but I thought they had the same effects selection, just 4 rack slots instead of 8.
@@mrufino1 XAir app dosent show fx insert for bus or main.
Mixing Station app shows it, but there is no way to set each channel separately. If I reassign one channel of the fx rack to an input, the entire fx disappears from the main.
Of note, I had a look at the api regarding valid control sentences, for main bus there is only 1 set of geq values (ie stereo only)
@@dougaltolan3017 weird, I didn’t realize that. Good to know. I was using mixing station when I used the xr18, but didn’t look at the fx rack at all. Does the xr18 have matrix mixes? If so, you could use matrixes for your main (which is what I do on mixers that allow it) rather then feeding matrixes from a main. In that case you might be able to use dual mono. I don’t come across the need for separate channels of eq on my mains, but everyone has different processes that work for them and always good to learn about other people’s workflows to get new ideas. I did accidentally have a dual mono eq on my mains when using an x32 and realized eventually that I wasn’t digging the sound I was getting because I was only affecting one side of the PA…I didn’t realize at the time the dual eq didn’t link channels if they were from the same send (which is the point). Thankfully it was a learning experience.
@@mrufino1 Yeah I do seem to be the weird one. I currently mix in a very asymmetrical room. Paned windows one side, bar alcove the other.
Have you ever experienced any issues with running mic cables, speaker cables, and AC/power cables in close proximity/parallel to each other? According to the classic Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, if mic cables (low-level signals) have to intersect speaker or AC cables (high-level signals), they should intersect at 90-degree angles to prevent noise from being introduced into the mic lines. That would make what you are suggesting here (2 cable paths for all on-stage cabling) virtually impossible.
In the real world of live audio, running mic cables and AC cables together happens all of the time. And these days you even find pre-built power and audio or power and DMX cables (both cables permanently married to each other) easily available.
While in a theoretical sense, it's possible that having power and mic lines running together can cause noise, in a practical sense it's either negligible or non-existent in normal circumstances. I also need to make the point that we're talking about balanced and shielded cables (like pro XLR mic lines) and not instrument cables here as well.
With speaker cables, while not balanced nor shielded, the signal being sent down the cable to passive speakers is not the same as a low level instrument cable. So again, it becomes a non-issue.
At this point, you can look at a lot of concert history since large scale concert touring and production became a thing (from clubs to arenas to stadiums) some 50 years ago, and one constant you'll see is huge multipair cables with MANY channels of mic/DI lines coming from the stage to FOH. Easily 300'... And married to that cable will be a large AC feed for FOH. Not just one circuit either... 2, even 3 circuits... even 3 phase. And other lines running down that same path, like video, coms, DMX...
Obviously, digital is now a factor to be considered and those behemoth multipair snake cables aren't the only way that audio signals are transferred from the stage to FOH these days... But the point still remains.
So if 300'+ of mic lines carrying everything from the stage to FOH can be ran cleanly from the stage to FOH with AC in that same parallel path, then a few feet onstage isn't going to make any difference.
Now, this is different than setting a coil of mic line and a poorly shielded DI on top of a tube bass amp. Or putting your snake box on top of the dimmer rack (or directly beside it). And I'm sure some people have done that, gotten noise, then in moving things around, they 'fixed' that problem by rerouting a bunch of cables. But it wasn't the cables running parallel to an AC line that was the actual issue but in rerouting the cables they also moved the things that WERE causing the noise symptom.
So, the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook is not wrong, in a theoretical sense. But it's also not practical in real-world applications in this case either.
When chasing down a noise, it's something to keep in mind I suppose, but in years of production work the number of times that I've ran into it being because of AC and audio cables running parallel is zero.
In this case, the Yamaha handbook needs to add some caveats that address real-world and typical situations.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you so much for the thoughtful and thorough response! I always thought it seemed very impractical to cross high and low-level lines perpendicularly, and I've run such cables parallel and even bundled together in the past without an issue. Heck, they even make "powered snake" cables with mic and speaker lines in the same multi-core cable (which may not be a best practice, but I digress), and I've always thought that would be a huge no-no according to the Yamaha book. In any case, I'm pretty much a hobbyist when it comes to live sound, so I was curious to get some real-world advice from someone with a lot more experience than myself. Thanks again!
I prefer to use electrical tape. When it gets old, it's easier to remove the remnants than with board (artist's) tape or gaff tape. (Don't stretch electrical tape when applying.)
E-tape is good too. White, gray are easy to write on/see writing with a black sharpie, and don't shine like a yellow or red piece of e-tape.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I sometimes like to augment numbers with the EIA color code, though this does cause issues with number visibility.
At 2:18 you have a speakon patchbay. Who knows how to build these or where I can order them already soldered so I can just connect to the back of the amp and mount it in the rack
I've been working on some shots for a video about making a Speakon patchbay. It has XLR inputs that don't require soldering, but the Speakon outputs do require soldering... or you can use crimp style disconnects. Like these:
www.parts-express.com/Neutrik-NLFASTON-100-pcs.-Faston-Non-insulated-Quick-Disconnects-0.187-for-speakON-powerCO-092-2438?gadid=499069947558&gclid=Cj0KCQjworiXBhDJARIsAMuzAuzK98rZb5klXw5HKsKFmFvnUlkAgMI1Epo6O9tBqS7MqBTvJWJ1_OYaAuPSEALw_wcB
I mention the I/O panel in this video below and link to the XLR connectors and generic panel in the text below that video. So it gives you a bit better look at it (it might 100% identical to the panel in the video above, but same basic idea):
ua-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/v-deo.html
doesn't matter how neat you make a stage, the musicians sitting up and tearing down will turn everything into a snarled mess, they just don't care.
Regarding starting your cable at the mixer or snake position. While this is true with a regular coiled cable setup, when you use, and you should, Over/under coiling option you would start at the instrument position.
It's true whether the cable is over-undered or not. You don't want all of the slack landing at the snake in most cases. Nor do you want all of the speaker cable slack living at the amp rack(s). If it was one cable it wouldn't matter too much... but the amp rack and snake (and subsnakes) are choke points where a whole series of cables will be landing. If all those cables end up there with all of their slack, it creates a mess. Plus, neither the amp rack(s) or snake(s) are likely to move, yet the speakers might be flying out and need the slack, and the mics and backline could get moved before everything is finalized. And that could also lead to wedges or sidefills getting moved. So that is where the slack needs to be.
You can certainly stand at the mic and toss the cable out to unroll it if you want... but you grab the loose end and take it to the snake and backtrack to the mic or DI so the slack lives there by itself.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio I know that... The concept with an over/under cable is to grab the end of the cable and move with it, in this case moving towards the snake which results in the same result. Over/under is standard in Japan and EU. My point being when you say start at the snake or mixer then this is not always the case. Coiled slack cable at the instrument is more accurate.
@@KimonoEtrange Yes, the goal is to have the slack not live at the snake or amps. That is a bad habit some people have and your reply could've been interpreted as telling them it was always OK to have all of the slack at the snake(s) or amp(s).
As you probably know, some people can read or be shown 100 things telling them a proper end goal, but if they read even one thing that SEEMS to tell them their way is OK, then they will continue to do it their way, even if a mess of cables all intermingled at one chokepoint is the result.
Ever crew would do this if they had time to adjust.many shows dont have proper time management.
Much of this take no more time to do it right than to do it wrong or without thought. And, many times it's ultimately taking longer to rush things because the resultant mess complicates things as setup goes along and slows you down. Example, wrong cable connected to a channel and you're hovering over the snake cable with the correct cable... But what IS connected to your channel? If everything is neat and orderly, it's generally easy to chase that wrong cable down and get it where it really goes. If it's in a mess of cable spaghetti, you have to decipher it. Many times double and triple-checking because you're still not sure you have the right cable and it didn't get crossed up somewhere.
Meanwhile, it's just as quick to start at the snake as it is to start at the mic, but starting at the snake and taking slack to the mic or DI eliminates a rat's nest of cables eventually living at the snake (or mixer).
And finally, having a consistent system for cable paths will also be quicker since everyone knows to do it every time. Maybe the first few times will be slower as old habits die hard, but ultimately the neater system will be quicker and easier to troubleshoot making it even faster in some situations.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio ur right but as ur saying about misconnection of cables i doubt. Because each and every cables are marked,tagged or number so don't need to hovering but i totally agree that work must be clean
So extreme
☮️❤️🎵
Not audience walked on coiled microphone wire if walked on it cause accident to audience
Yes, cable paths should be condensed to minimize multiple runs (as few as logistically possible), and minimize or eliminate cables being subjected to foot traffic. Cable ramps, rugs, and/or gaffer's tape properly dressing cables where foot traffic can't be avoided.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thanks for commenting