Demystifying XR18 Channel Send & Output Tap Points | Monitor setting | Mixing Station and X-Air Edit
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Behringer XR18 & Midas MR18 Monitor Tap Points Explained. When setting up stage monitor feeds, for IEMs or wedges, tap points are used to make sure you are sending the exact parts of the signal chain you want going to a monitor mix or other feed. With digital audio consoles, it's not just post fader and pre fader options, but other options within those main options. Knowing and understanding the signal chain and what and where the pick points are tapping the mixer channel signal chain can aid in decision making and better monitor mixes. This is especially important when monitors are from a Front of House console where there is also the house mix to consider.
Shown using: Mixing Station and X-Air Edit
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There seems to be some confusion surround tap points on the X-Air stuff, and some consistent mistakes being made, so someone requested this video to talk about that.
I used both X-Air Edit AND Mixing Station to demonstrate the points in this video.
I have broken the video down into 3 sections. The first part is about the channel sends. I get the feeling that people have a general understanding of that part, but it's leading to mistakes in output routing options because the two parts and options of the console are so similar yet SO different. All leading people to get confused between those two areas. So I didn't want to explain every last details about channel sends at the front of the video ( where I think there's a general handle by most people on that part... at least somewhat), rather than going over the main points on that and then leading into a section on the output section tap points and making sure the overall big picture was being addressed and explained.
Then the 3rd section of the video begins to get more into finer details of that bigger picture that the first 2 sections (hopefully) have people understanding better in the first place. That way it all (hopefully) allows it to make more sense when I talk about those small details and considerations to think about when setting the tap points. Not just the "how" but the "why".
The tap point chart I created is available on the free tier of the Patreon site:
www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio
🎤Sweetwater Affiliate Links:
Behringer XR18 Digital Mixer at Sweetwater Sound:
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Midas MR18 Digital Mixer at Sweetwater Sound:
imp.i114863.net/NKjKM1
Midas M32R digital mixer on Sweetwater-
sweetwater.sjv.io/bavBkm
📦Amazon Affiliate Links:
🔊Items Used to Make This Video-
FDUCE SL40 Vocal Dynamic Podcast Microphone on Amazon:
amzn.to/408xlf3
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amzn.to/3z9MHny
Canon M50 MkII Camera on Amazon:
amzn.to/3z6c8X5
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www.patreon.com/AlanHamiltonAudio
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🎶🔊Other Channel Videos-
Behringer X-Air FX Rack Explained:
ua-cam.com/video/TV5ClH_MWrU/v-deo.html
Behind the Soundboard - Soundchecking the Band:
ua-cam.com/video/iCzNO4lCyAs/v-deo.html
5 Tips for Mixing Live Vocals:
ua-cam.com/video/oP4sdpkkNhY/v-deo.html
3 Tips For Aspiring Live Audio Engineers:
ua-cam.com/video/tEX2Prwfh-g/v-deo.html
Building an IEM Rig With the Behringer XR18 or Midas MR18:
ua-cam.com/video/xT9gTBFxvZk/v-deo.html
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ua-cam.com/video/6iwW5_Ia9Uc/v-deo.html
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Just hooked up my XR18 and your videos with clear explanations and diagrams have helped immensely! Thank you! God Bless you!
Thanks! Glad they help!
REALLY appreciate toggling between Xedit and Mixing Station!
Thanks!
great job explaining this. really appreciate you uploading this video
Thank you!
G'Day, Thanks for making this video. I am slowly getting the jist of the XR18. I am a analog tragic, starting gig mixing in 1986. This is my first digital desk for a small PA setup. 4 Bins and F/B. Getting lots of great information from your videos. Thanks once again. Regards PW. Australia.
Thanks for watching and commenting! I'm glad the videos are helpful. Always good to hear! :)
Great info! Thanks for making this.
Thanks! :)
Thanks!!!
Nice graphical descriptions, thanks for posting.
Glad you liked it!
Si vous plaît grand frère donne moi la tradition de cette vidéo en français
@@djaholeon.com1 Sous-titres français ajoutés
Totally grasped it this time. Since my DJ board is on 15-16 and subs are on aux, I want the channel sends to the subs Pre-eq so any changes I make with board don't affect the subs.
It was completely frustrating not knowing why my changes day to day were causing the subs to change as well. Really appreciate these videos.
Thanks!
Important thing about having a fader available (be it in the mixer page of the mix you've selected or in the "sends" tab of a channel (that's how it works i the Mixing Station app)) when your tap point is a "subgroup" :
- when in a subgroup the channel is sent to unity to the bus, so the fader doesn't do anything
- but if you switch back to another tap point (that is not a subgroup), then that fader value is gonna matter
- so even when you're in a subgroup, the fader is there for you to see and adjust the send level BEFORE switching back to another tap point (that is not a subgroup)
Explained to me today by David Schuman from Mixing Station.
I am so happy to be a subscriber, ive learned almost everything from your tutorials
It would be great if you could also do tutorials on ultranet & P16-M's
I use 4 of them & they are absolutely fantastic, but im having a hard time getting fx to them, i know its user error, on the in/out page, ive tried fxL & or fxR, it kinda works, but it seems to cut the volume in half, so if i move all the vocals to either main L or R, it works, but my singers dont have individual mixes from there P16-M, which is pointless to have them in the 1st place, now me & my singers dont mind not have fx in our P16-M's, but it would be nice to have
Again, i really appreciate your tutorials
Great stuff
Thanks. I'll have to see if I can figure out a way without owning a P16M.
So... Ultranet gives you 16 channels. You have to find a way to fit everything into those 16 channels. Some bands don't even need 16 channels so they have leftover Ultranet channels to work with.
Some people are using all 16 input channels (or more on an X32...etc...) and so they have to find tricks to make things work. Like sending the drums to a submix and then sending the drum subgroup to an Ultranet channel where there's then just the full kit on a monitor channel. Or some version of that... like all the toms and OH's are subgrouped and the kick and snare remains separate. Or maybe only the kick and snare get sent to the P16 in the first place.
That way, unused inputs, or extra/unneeded (in mons) inputs, are not sent or condensed for the P16.
If there is one keyboard player with multiple keys, then maybe the keys are what is subgrouped. Or for a stereo keyboard only the left out key feed is sent to the P16.
So to get FX into the P16, there needs to be at least one open ultranet channel.
How are you doing the FX into Ultranet now?
What I'd do is dedicate one FX slot to being the main vocal verb. That simplifies things if you don't need multiple FX slots feeding your Ultranet channels. If you don't need/want delay too then you're going to need at least 2 Ultranet channels opened up... somehow (see above).
I would skip the idea of monitoring the reverb or delay in stereo IF at all possible. Mono should be fine, and especially if you don't get used to anything else.
Let's say FX3 is the main vocal verb and FX4 is the vocal delay.
Go into the mixer's Routing and get to Ultranet routing. You could use whatever Ultranet channels you have open, but for sanity, let's say FX can be the last channels. Ultranet 15 and 16. Assign FX 3L to channel Ultranet 15. Assign FX4L to Ultranet 16.
Make sure they are tapped at some point PRE FADER. To be safe, I'd say either INPUT or PRE EQ. Whether you want +Mute or not is another question. If you don't ever mute the FX in the house it doesn't even matter. If you have a soundperson that is Johnny on the spot and always muting FX perfectly between songs, then + Mute is great. If they get distracted, or if you're mixing onstage and get distracted and forgotten, then + Mute could mean you sometimes have a reverb feed in your P16 and sometimes don't (assuming it is the FX returns where the FX gets muted between songs). So NOT + mute is an option in that case. Then you ALWAYS have reverb/delay in your P16. And if talking with it on bothers you, then you'd have to mute it yourself.
If you do this method and don't have enough reverb/FX level available to you in the P16, then it has to be a mixing/gain staging issue.
It's hard telling you where to look since that could come at multiple points in the mixer. I can tell you what I do- I don't even change the INPUT level or OUTPUT level of the Effect itself in the FX rack of the Behringer stuff. I leave it at the default. The default is essentially where I'd set the stuff if I have a physical unit in front of me versus GUI. So if you're changing those, I'd put those back to their default settings.
This will impact your house settings though and so they will need to be readjusted elsewhere to compromise.
I also suggest leaving the main (master) FX send for each FX feed on the mixer at unity.
Then bring up the effect on the FX send in each channel of the vocals... until you hear what you need in the house.
This (I would think) should be plenty signal for the P16 to work with. Since I don't have a P16 to test, I can't say if something else might be going on that I'm missing.
In theory, you could even run the vocal channel FX send even higher (as long as you aren't clipping the input of the FX unit) and reduce the FX return fader to rebalance things in the house.
Since I said to tap the FX Returns at a point pre fader, then reducing the mixer FX return(s) is not going to change the signal getting to the P16. And turning UP the vocal channel FX send HAS to send more level to the effect, back to the return, and thus to the P16.
(Example) IOW, the signal chain could be sending 6dB MORE reverb on the channel FX send than you want to hear in the house from that channel FX send, to the master FX bus, to the input of the vocal reverb, and back to the FX Send. And tapped at a point pre fader, the P16 would be getting a 6dB hotter reverb sent to it. Then reducing the FX Return fader 6dB would lower that vocal FX 6dB in the house. Which gets it back to the same balance as you had in the house to begin with in this example.
This assumes once you realigned your gain staging in the FX send signal chain, that you still aren't getting enough level at the P16.
That doesn't seem like it should be the case in the first place, assuming everything is like I first described it, or is changed to how I described it... But even if it would still be too low, that would be the quick fix to that issue.
If you're tapping the Ultranet FX Return POST FADER then that could be an issue, especially if you're not running the FX Return faders at unity normally.
Also, if you've choked back the master FX bus send fader then THAT will also be choking back the level in the signal chain and that will then take away level that you'd be tapping from to send to the P16. Another reason to have the master FX bus sends at unity.
I'd also make sure you're using the FX as send and return effects and not trying to INSERT them. You definitely don't want to insert them for the house, though there MIGHT be a way to insert a reverb as a P16 ONLY reverb. But you'd lose that reverb for the house and need it dedicate to the P16, and risk a configuration error that could have negative impacts for the house and overly complicate something that is probably not a necessary method anyway. Plus, without a P16 I can't test this alternate method anyway... so there could be a dead end I'm not thinking about if I even tried to send you down this path. So I'd stick to the tried and true method, and then if that's not working, chase down with something is off in the signal chain.
Off the top of my head, I think a vocal (reverb) channel FX send would ride around -10dB when I'm mixing in a typical situation. That is with the Effect itself at the default settings and that master FX bus send at unity. And the channel FX return at unity for the sound check.
I'm more likely to use the vocal FX return to adjust overall reverb (song to song) than the channel FX send, once I have it set at soundcheck (or within a song or two) and have a balance between singers that I like.
I never even touch the master FX bus sends. Those go to unity and I leave them there in every scene I create.
How far off is any of this from what you've tried? Or is it what you're doing?
@AlanHamiltonAudio Hey Alan, i hate to say this, but i give up, im not a quiter, but in this case, i cant figure it out
My front of house sounds & signals are fantastic, with reverb & delay coming through nicely, the gains are all set up where everything is nice & clear
Even all 4 of the P16's are running great, each of us musicians have dialed in our mixes to where each of us are very happy, even our USB recording into Reaper daw is working out great, we can record & play it back & hear through FOH & in our P16's (Thank You For That Tutorial)
Now getting any kind of fx ie reverb & or delay, its just not happening, i just sat down infront of my xair edit software infront of my mic with my headphones on for like an hour this morning & i just cant get it there, i can! get reverb in, but just that, the entire signal is lost accept the reverb itself, 1st off, we use channels 1 to 11, our vocal mics are 5 to 8, mine being number 8
On the in/out routing page in the ultranet part, our channels are on a diagonal patern like it should be, so when i take my channel (8) & move it to fxL & i go back & click on fx1 on the main page & turn it up on my channel, i get the reverb, but thats it, i dont get the full signal like i did when its in its diagonal pattern, so, in the ultranet routing page, theres a preset of 1/8 effects, when i click that, it automatically changes the diagonal pattern, but that being said, the reverb & full signal are there, its fantastic, the reverb & delay are great, but, its only on my P16, not the other 3, im like WTF, ive tried all the different tap points in the ultranet routing page, on the main page, everything, i just cant seem to figure it out, so that being said, im happy having a nice clean clear signal in mine & the others P16's
& with out you here looking at everything im doing & seeing for yourself, plus you not having any P16's, its next to impossible for you to trouble shoot
But i find myself a pretty smart guy that can usually figure stuff out, but this, i cant 😭😫
But thanks for taking the time to try & help me, i really appreciate it
I love your videos & ive learned so much from them
But if your able at some point to recreate what im going through & you can figure it out
Please share your findings
Thanks again
@@KENNETHCOOPER55 Can you email me or message me your scene to look at and see if I see anything that might be giving you issues? There's an email on the About page of the YT channel here.
Hi Al!
Hey Hunter! :)
did u ever try and record xr18 xlr outs into a difrent audi interface set to -4dbu or recording device ? it comes out less compressed and louder than if using the usb record dont understand why xlr output limited at -3.5 db but comes into other interface at-1.5 db with interface set at -4dbu
How can I plug a Samson expedition speaker to a xair aux out? My assignment says to connect a 1/4 unbalanced cable to a 1/8 adapter but neither end would fit a aux
Thanks so much for the information, we appreciate you going in depth.
I’m wondering if you can help me problem solve something though that was not addressed.
Our band is using Mixing Station with a Behringer digital PA. All the channels seem to sound fine except the one that’s processing my guitar signal. it sounds fizzy and thin. No matter how we’ve adjusted the parameters in my channel, we can’t seem to get rid of that sound. It’s truly not representative of the amplifier. We have tried this both going direct and using a microphone.
I can’t help but think there is something turned on in the parameters of my particular channel, that is causing this to happen.
Have you ever experienced this, and if so, do you have any idea how I might go about correcting it?
Thanks for your time!
Well, my first thought is a bad mic cable. Do you always use the same mic cable? If the mic cable is 'one-legged' you'll get weak, thin sound. And it wouldn't matter if it was a DI or mic connected to it.
If it happens with multiple mic cables, then that pretty much rules that out.
Are you sending the guitar channel to a subgroup? Maybe not even intentionally. If so maybe something is going on with the EQ in the subgroup. Or maybe you're sending it to a subgroup with something inserted on the subgroup, PLUS sending it direct to the L-R and creating a latency (cancellation) issue between the two signal paths?
Do you have something like a chorus or reverb or other time-based FX inserted on the guitar channel from the FX rack? THAT would explain a weak signal because many of those don't have a wet/dry balance control. Without that, you only get the wet signal and no dry signal.
If you connect a known good mic to the guitar channel, does it sound fine? Even with the low cut off, EQ off, compressor off, and gate off... with the signal directly routed to the L-R and nowhere else? Or a known good mic and cable (like moving the lead singer's mic there)....
Have you tried moving your guitar input to another channel? I hate to say there's a hardware problem with the mixer, but if that one channel always sounds weak no matter what you're connecting to it, and if it sounds weak even with everything turned off on that channel, while moving those things to another channel and they're fine.. That could be telling...
OTOH, if the problem follows the guitar rig... no matter the channel then the problem must be something else. Which is one place that bad mic cable issue would always rear its head.
I guess another possibility would be if that guitar channel was NOT routed to L-R, or is running thru a DCA that is turned way down, or routed to an mix bus output that is also feeding L-R itself while the guitar is NOT feeding L-R (either directly or via a subgroup). Things where you're not hearing what you think you're hearing, or should be hearing, depending on the circumstance.
Of course, you can always save your scene, then initialize the console and check that guitar channel when you're starting from scratch. Out of the box the mixer is configured for what is a normal live sound configuration. So if you have any gremlins lurking in a misconfiguration, this would certainly eliminate that. If all is suddenly good, then you know you have a gremlin in your channel config/routing on the band scene.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thank you so much for taking the time to share that! Your expertise is greatly appreciated. I’m going to share the information you shared with our sound tech and see if he can use it to do some problem-solving. Once again, you taking the time to do that really matters, I have been baffled by the issues, but some of the things you suggest make a lot of sense. I think we can rule out simple things like cables and mics, we’ve used different ones. The more complex workings of Mixing Station though is something that’s new to us, and your information greatly opened up the possibilities for resolving it. Have a great day!
What tap point should I use if I’m using the Behringer xr18 for FOH but also trying to control everyone’s IEM without affecting the FOA. Where a 3 piece band usually do small gigs. Thank you
For the channel send the 'safest' setting is PRE-EQ. Post EQ will get you the FOH channel EQ in your ears, and that could certainly be fine and worth a try. But everyone needs to understand that if they start making changes to the channel EQ for their ears, it impacts FOH too. Pre-EQ leaves you 'stuck' with a flat EQ for your ears, but that means you're not 'stuck' with FOH channel EQ settings, or hearing the FOH engineer change channel EQ settings. If you have a FOH EQ tweaker, having PRE-EQ channel sends for mons could be better for that reason alone.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio Thank you🤟🏽
Greetings and thank you for your awesome tutorial videos here! I just recently purchased an XR18 and have been going through the learning curve of moving from the analog live mixing world to digital. Your explanations regarding this system are invaluable. One thing I wanted to ask you, if you could be so kind, is in regards to the X Air app for mobile (I'm on Android.) I downloaded the X Air Edit app for PC and it's great. However, the mobile version is confusing as it appears that full access to all the functions of the XR18 aren't available, i.e. there doesn't appear to be a full mix view available. What I'm seeing is something that appears to be more specific to individual musicians being able to control a monitor mix from the stage. This is not a good solution for me as I'm looking to be able to do a full front-of-house mix from my tablet via the app, and I need to be able to access and control the same functions as on the PC app. Do you have any additional information on this? Sorry to ask here but I didn't see anything regarding this anywhere...a bit odd since it seems to be a logical concern. It's one of the main reasons I went with this system. Thank you for any feedback you can provide. (The mobile app in the Play store is called "X Air Q" - there is no "X Air Edit" for mobile.)
X-Air Q is for band members to control their own mon mix. So it limits what they have access to. (Or said another way, it limits what they can mess up! ;) ).
I think the app you want is just called X-Air.
I always use Android and I've been using Mixing Station (which is a 3rd party app). If you're not already used to the standard app, I'd recommend using Mixing Station. It's very similar, but way more powerful in the customizations you can make. Mixing Station is available for Apple iPad, Mac, PC, and Android.
@@AlanHamiltonAudio thanks for your quick reply. Actually, the "X Air" app for Android doesn't exist on the Play Store anymore. I did just locate an app called "MX Mix" which appears to offer the full view solution. But I also had already downloaded Mixing Station, too - just haven't taken the time yet to set it all up as it appears to be something you have to build from scratch? I do like the X Air Edit app for PC - that's exactly the kind of GUI I was hoping for on the tablet app. Again, thanks for all the great videos. It's very helpful!
@@DavidOxford606 I think the default Mixing Station view is fine. Unless something has changed, you don't have to build anything from scratch. Just choose the XR18 and connect to it and it should be ready to go.
Our X18 EQ section will not allow us to change to a low cut or anything else. It seems stuck on one wave and can't be adjusted. What could cause this? Thank you Sir
Are you sure you're actually connected to the mixer? But even with that theory, being in demo mode instead of actually being connected, I'd think it would appear to be working. So, I'm kind of stumped. Never have heard of anyone having this problem before.
You do mean that you can't change the setting(s) at all... versus you can change it but you can't hear any change?
My main out is left or right heavy. I thought that was a faulty mixer. But when I do Master LR output from the 6 buzzes, that does the same one side heavy also. How can I fix that, please.
Check your FX rack... Look for having a dual effect inserted somewhere when you meant to have stereo. Or vice versa maybe. Also, look for anything inserted that should've been used differently, or you didn't know was there.
This video is about the FX Rack: ua-cam.com/video/TV5ClH_MWrU/v-deo.html
The next thing I'd look at is the Bus masters... make sure one of you monitor mixers, stream mix, etc. isn't accidentally assigned to FOH.
Also, pay attention to any subgroups you might be using and check the panning there.
The double-assigned bus issue is explained here:
ua-cam.com/video/x9wciA2wFd0/v-deo.html
Behringer's own tap point diagram is actually correct for USB inputs but, as you point out, is wrong for analog inputs.
Why would Behringer do this?
Why would they not allow us to send analog inputs pre HPF to the aux outputs? But USB inputs are allowed to go pre HPF.
It's probably a 'safer' setting to capture the HPF for any monitor send, stream feed send, etc... (no matter what tap point is chosen). It also captures the polarity setting (which I tested via a null test with a mono signal). So, I can speculate on 'why' they might do it... but I don't have any idea why it's not better documented. I'm sure there are people with applications where they might not want the HPF captured in a send for whatever reason.
But there could also be a user-base argument made that the majority of users will want the HPF captured in any feeds, even if they don't understand or realize that for whatever reason. But that still leaves the question wide open as why it isn't better documented. At least anyone wanting it any other way could know it isn't possible except using dual inputs and not utilizing the HPF on one of them. Or not using the HPF for FOH in the first place. But that's normally a bad practice to not use properly, even if conservative, HPF settings in the system.
Behringer go out of their way to make things complicated. Why would you call a monitor send a aux on the unit, group them all together under the name, sends, and then call them buses? This is just bad design.