“They built roads, they tried to establish trade routes, but in the end it all failed. The argonians didn’t want it in the first place, and then it just became a prison state” I never realized Black Marsh was supposed to be an analogue of Australia.
Argonians living in Morthal makes more sense to me. Since Hjaalmarch is mostly marshland it seems like a better place for them to live as it's the closest environment in Skyrim to Black Marsh
@@ltloxa1159 Assuming that, and the 1/10th of an ok salary thing, it would be really hard for them to gather enough resources to make a trip to black marsh. Whose boat would take them (considering the prejudice)? Wouldn't their Nord bosses try to have them arrested? Would they risk passing through Morrowind (broken as it is) and get recaptured as slaves? The other way by boat it's almost a full circle around Tamriel (and goes through AD territory). The "safest" option I think would be going to Riften (maybe getting some help from the fellow Argonians there) and trying to cross the mountains into Cyrodil and then through nibenese lands to Argonia. But even then such a trip would have its risks.
yeah the Civil War in TES V: Skyrim's *can be* pretty controversial (kinda like picking between team Cap and team Iron Man in MCU's 2016 Captain America: Civil War) and hard choice to pick (there's always the 3rd neutral option too of course thankfully) *for some* , but it's honestly starting to become kind of a toxic debate lol, plus politics *can be* pretty boring and stressful. i love this game so much too, except when it freezes and crashes 😡😡😤😤
It’s almost as if they grew up from when they were 15 and bought a Mature game. As you grow up you learn to have some introspection on old views you had and you reevaluate.
I like how the Skyrim civil war reflects wars in the real world. We all see wars from a biased perspective, enforcing a "we are the good guys, and they are the bad guys" perspective. In Skyrim you learn of the war from a perspective that lies somewhere in the middle. That's why it's so easy to make an argument for either side.
I don't know. The one in Ukraine seems pretty black and white, yet people try to push the narrative that it's not as if Russia has ever been the good guys.
@@notforgotten3685 Alderaan didn't want to be part of the Galatic Empire and look how it turned out for them. UK was big part self sabotage from an inept leader and that the EU wanted to make an example to scare others from leaving, the whole thing made me respect the EU even less.
I think it often gets swept aside due to the oversimplification of the civil war in the fandom, but BSG did a really incredible job building a complex conflict that had no truly “correct” winner. A really solid argument could be made for either side and they don’t get enough credit for the amount of layers there are to consider in your decision
It amazes me so many people missed the subtleties. For example, the are a lot of pro Stormcloak players who don't see an issue with ultranationalism faction mistreating the other races.
@Sanguine I feel like you are they type of person who would applaud putting the Japanese Americans in internment camps, because there were spies that mapped out Pearl Harbor. "The Japanese were even more racist against other Asians".
@@badluck5647 I feel like you are the type of person who would applaud putting those "reactionary" people who think Einstein was right into chinese death camps, because they don't share your opinion. Nice ad hominem by the way. Maybe next time you should consider that this is a game world, not the real world. Sanguine is right, they are almost all xenophobic. The Empire was basically the only thing that "forced" them to be open.
Quite so. Which side of the civil war I join comes down to the values of the character I'm playing. Do they care more about the totalitarian persecution going on, Thalmor agents going around like the Gestapo, openly dragging thought criminals off to torture while the Empire considers this a price worth paying to avoid open war with the Dominion? Or do they care more about Stormcloak xenophobia versus Imperial cosmopolitanism? Do they believe that the Empire is ultimately a dying force? Or do they think the Empire is the most viable way to eventually push back the Dominion? Do they think Skyrim can stand alone against the Empire and the Dominion? Or do they think the Stormcloak project is ultimately doomed? Or do they think, even if it _is_ doomed, it's better to go out fighting the Thalmor to the last, than a peaceful but slow decline? In the end it comes down to roleplaying.
@@goblez5900 imperial bias? For most of the game we are shown/told about the imperials being bad and storm cloaks good! Imperials Tring to execute you Empire working with the dominion Empire subjugation locals Empire banning talos worship Imperials arresting stormcloak supporters Thalmor arresting talos worshipers And all we are told is storm cloaks want it to stop And yet the Empire is still the most popular choice. Because It's not until alot of further digging that you learn the Imperials arnt the big bad guys and the storm cloaks arnt the good guys (no one is).
@@martinhill9561 hence why you slaughter him but legit fuck the blades they literally do nothing for me and then ask me to kill the cool dragon who helped me kill his brother like tf I will happily never talk to you weirdos ever again
I agree entirely, the political prestige the empire would get from that would overwhelming. The literal saviour of all humanity from the Dragon Wars, the direct (now eldest) son of the main god of the Imperial Cult. If I was some farmer in the empire I'd pledge my life to him in a heartbeat.
The obviously manipulated the entire thing. I don't think they turned Ulfric but they broke his faith in the empire. They made the Empire ban Talos worship to turn some of the Nord people against the Empire. They made the Empire surrender Hammerfell lands to turn the Redguards against the Empire. Who knows what they have done in Highrock. Their intent was the fracture the Empire, and it worked.
THIS. Honestly, what I really want is the option to bop Ulfric and Tullius over the head with rolled up newspapers until they realize that the Thalmor are their actual enemies and maybe they should stop killing each other because the main thing that accomplishes is making the Thalmor very, very happy.
@@asraarradon4115 only thing with this is i lowkey think that the hammerfell breakoff was a deliberate move against the thalmor since terrain wise hammerfell is much harder to control and the empire had already drained much of the thalmors most valuable and important assets, letting the the redguards bleed out the high elves for a little longer after the imperials had already pushed them back and stopped their assaults advance. obvs the redguards would definitely see the greater benefits of independence, but just the demeanor of the emperor when you meet him and the background on the Great War seems like that may have been a calculated move to benefit the empire in the long run
@@CatHasOpinions734 Tulius does realize the Thalmor Threat. After addressing the troops after killing Ulfric. He states they'll have to fight again. However, he needs to put down this rebellion to secure The Empire's territory. Try defending your lands with a rebellion on your hands. It will not go well for you and what else is a Empire suppose to do? Let the rebellion happen that'll weaken them in the future? No.
People wanting to rule their own land and defend their home against foreign forces that have outlawed their primary deity... It's hard to not empathize with the Stormcloaks. Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must." Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed." Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn." Ulfric is one big dick dude.
You've fallen for the populist rhetoric brother. Stop worshipping Aludin (or whatever you fucks do up there north of Bruma) and rejoin the Red Diamond.
It's really not all that difficult once you learn that Ulfric's the reason why the ban is being enforced. And when you learn of the fact that you can still worship Talos even if the Empire wins.
One thing I've never heard mentioned about the civil war is that all of the Stormcloak holds are pretty economically run down or "shadows of their former selves" in some way. We have Windhelm which despite being a major port city akin to Solitude, isn't economically booming nearly as much and the place just seems run down and has more poverty in general. Riften used to be a lot more massive prior to it burning down around a century earlier and we all know what happened to Winterhold. Dawnstar seems to be the only stormcloak hold that's stable but it's only a minor hold. Realizing this made me think that one of the reasons those particular holds joined Ulfric is maybe due to economic reasons, if the capital is brought back to Windhelm than maybe Ulfric would benefit the eastern holds in the same way that the Empire benefits the western holds.
If you check the conversations between the NPCs at the Blue Palace in Solitude you will see that imperial holds aren't doing any better, because the empire is leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower with taxes and the like. Which is one of the many reasons why Stormcloaks are rebelling as mentioned by both Ulfric and Ralof.
@@paladinheadquarters7776 because the empire is a corrupt husk of decaying flesh rebel my dear nords the redguards wait eagerly for your victory and allegiance
@@paladinheadquarters7776 Well for one as I mentioned in my other comment, the empire is apparently leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower as proven by the conversations at the Blue Palace in Solitude. Thus "strengthening" the empire weakens Skyrim substantially. Secondly the empire is the very reason why humans are in this mess. Nobody trusts or should trust the empire anymore because nobody wants a second White Gold Concordat. Finally thanks to the White Gold Concordat the empire is now infested with Thalmor agents throughout its provinces. These agents are now able to easily undermine, sabotage and destroy the empire from within by various means (many of which we see in-game), making the whole point of strengthening the empire moot. The only hope the humans have now is to make new states that aren't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat and that also means destroying the empire in the process. Especially since at this moment the empire allows Thalmor influence to spread throughout Tamriel thanks to the White Gold Concordat, thus weakening the empire at this point also weakens Thalmor influence on Tamriel.
Well as an emerging faction they don’t have any trade partners, say the Stormcloaks win. Who would actually trade with them? They hate foreigners, everyone else doesn’t like nords. I can’t imagine high rock would tolerate them because they kill reachmen who are Bretons. The Empire is the only way they have access to trade and I think it’s less economically beneficial to cut ties.
True @Luke Hart. If you think about it, the internal power struggle seems to be the real mechanic of Skyrim. The Civil War, The Dark Brotherhood, The Thieves Guild, The Cydna Mine Incident in Markarth, the Dawnguard vampire questline, even the main questline; all have elements of an internal power struggle.
I always looked at it like I was choosing the lesser of two evils when I chose the empire, but the emperor wasn’t fit to lead anymore so we take him out.
I enjoyed the idea of red guards teaming with a fractured nord populace. Would love to hear this expanded upon in the next episode! Cheers love the content as always.
@@louditalian1962 ? you gotta build your characters background and make it make sense, if anything its the opposite of lazy. Compared to, I like red more than blue
Even then, I have a hard time siding with the empire on any of my characters. The empire came this close to executing you for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think something like that would give even the most patriotic pro-cyrodil Imperial a bit of a crisis of allegiance.
@@cptndunsel2670 damn straight. The Mede Empire are corrupt as hell, perfectly fine with attempted murder, get along with knife eared Nazi's, has Maven a.k.a female Al Capone as an asset and would make that moron Elisif the queen which would make Skyrim into a complete joke
Honestly, what gets me the most is sadly the intro of the game. I know from a strictly baseline perspective, the Imperials are instantly dislikable simply because they try to murder the player - but it's really telling of what they're doing to Skyrim. They don't care about your race or who you actually are. They suspected you of being Stormcloak and thus you're sent to the block. I can only imagine how many innocent people in Skyrim suffered the same fate simply because of circumstance. I don't think it's right that the Empire are going "scorched-earth" on the Nords to solve the issue.
Bruh are you seriously saying that a Legion captain taking some drastic measures because she doesn't want to hold up the execution of Ulfric Stormcloak himself means that they'd behave like that normally?
@@dutchpatriot17 Yeah, because that captain couldn't have taken one minute to say "Hmm. Let's put this one prisoner on the side for a moment" would have held up Ulfric's execution.
Funny how although fictional all these dilemmas are still present in the real world at this time People's opinions are greatly influenced by who delivers the news even if otherwise they wouldn't agree of who is the bad or good
I think it'd be interesting if each country in Tamriel became independent I'd prefer that makes for interesting lore or reunification of the Empire a new Septim Emperor like an unknown descendant of Martin but that's too optimistic and unlikely.
That would result in another Interregnum like in Arena or ESO, which is profitable for many people.. War hawks, bandit lords, necromancer cabals, opportunistic warlords.. Not too good for the common man, I do think. But it would be an interesting setting, yes.
@@maestrol6771 The reason why the Interregnum happened is because Cyrodiil collapsed leaving a huge power vacuum in the center of Tamriel. We don't need an empire for peace in Tamriel so long as Cyrodiil remains stable.
@@teyrncousland7152 Well, why Cyrodiil? I mean, yes it's in the center, so that's a huge point, but if Cyrodiil is in a position where "if we fall, all of Tamriel will scramble for power there", then perhaps that's why the Imperials always start, well, an Empire, to protect the heartland as well as keep stability. Of course, the other Provinces aren't necessarily gonna be starting wars for Cyrodiil, since not all of them are interested in having even larger Provinces, so that's also a good debate. Hell, Summerset isn't even on the mainland, and when they made a Dominion to keep themselves protected and seperate from human rule, but that didn't stop the humans from invading Summerset and annihilating the Altmer for no reason but "muh conquest".
@@thalmoragent9344 You are correct. A stable Cyrodiil isn't going to keep the peace on Tamriel. In fact the empire's weren't really effective in keeping the peace either. At this point we might just as well let all the provinces be independent and decide their own future, I just don't like it when one of them dominates the others. If chaos is the cost of freedom, so be it.
@@teyrncousland7152 Independence for the provinces of Tamriel, returning everything to just constantly warring states. But if I know the Tamrielic races, they'll always have some reason to hate each other. Slavery, genocide, all sorts of hatred run deep. So, yes, chaos is the greatest cost of freedom. Is that a good thing? I can't really answer that.
One thing that I always have an issue with is that everyone against the stormcloaks say they discriminate against the argonians and the dark Elves, when that's not exactly true. 200 years ago the Red Mountain erupted. 200 years they have been living in Windhelm. That's generations and generations of Nords. So then invaders come to Skyrim to force their laws and ways of life on the people of skyrim and the Elves in Windhelm don't help the local militia fighting against the invaders. "Skyrim is for the Nords" refers to Skyrim is for it's people and not the Empire. Any race can join the stormcloaks. You being dragonborn when recruited until the very end means that you weren't recruited for your magic powers but because you're willing to fight off the invaders. Argonians and Dark Elves are being separated to keep them from fighting. The dark Elves enslaved the argonians for so long and then recently the argonians started fighting back since morrowind had been weakened. If Ulfric was racist, there wouldn't be any Elves or argonians in windhelm. High Elves own shops in Windhelm. If he was racist, they wouldn't own a shop in his hold, let alone his city. The only two people showing any sort of hostilities toward Elves is the Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored, a brother of someone important but a nobody himself and a homeless veteran (so another nobody). It's the Shatter-Shield's business practices that makes the argonians lives hell, not the Stormcloaks.
The White Gold Concordat could be rather easily circumvented by putting more of an emphasis on the traditional pantheons. Talos worship outlawed? Okay let’s worship Shor/Shezzar/Sheor, Pelinal, Kyne, etc and stick together for now.
The white-gold concordat wasn’t that bad, the Thalmor paid chests of gold for a Talos ban and some territory in Hammerfel that they lose soon after, we know the empire wasn’t strict on the ban so essentially they got to walk away with tons of money and they let all their red guard legionnaires go home to fight the Thalmor and win.
@@sercravenmohead3631 Well, the Empire lost Hammerfell though, so... as well as half of Skyrim in rebellion now. The Empire is falling apart at the seams, and the Concordat is to blame for multiple Factions
@@thalmoragent9344 Hammerfel is independent but they are in good terms with the Empire, and half of Skyrim is still loyal. Tulius practically won at the beginning of the game but because of Alduin, Ulfric escaped. I still think Tulius will win the war, the loyalist holds are more wealthy.
@@sercravenmohead3631 Skyrim may hold out, but Hammerfell getting half of itself sold out for the sake of Cyrodiil is why some are bitter. The Crowns especially are gonna be pissed, the ones who don't like the Empire/pro Yokudan ones
I wish more people would entertain the idea of the dragonborn making a grab for the ruby throne. The thing that kept the septim dynasty going was the boon of akatosh, from the amulet of kings and the dragonblood. My headcanon has always been the stormcloaks winning, ulfric becoming high king, the emperor being assassinated, and the dovahkiin marching on cyrodiil and claiming the protection of akatosh, and going on to drive the thalmor back
same. Also im interested if dragonblood causes power hunger for the Dragonborns since miraak & tiber seemed to be quite interested in different kinds of power
YESS!! I also have this head-canon. The Dragonborn rstores The Blades (after putting them in their place of course, Parthurnax remains alive), and he will claim his akatosh given right to the ruby throne. He has the back up of The Blades, the consent of the Greybeards, and Dragon as firepower. Plus Skyrim at his back. The assassination of the Empedor (whether it was the drsginborn himself or someone else would be irrelevant) exposes the weakness of the empire. A weak Emperor, with a weak protection detail. Its time for strength!
No, the Last Dragonborn will vanish as do all other The Elder Scrolls protagonists. If not, then all sorts of tomfoolery will occur. I think it's safe to say that the DB is one of the most powerful mortals in Mundus, surpassed only by actual divine beings. The Bend Will shout alone is already game-over for anyone who dares to challenge them. Just all other protagonists before the DB, they will be remembered for the main quest, and that's it.
I have a feeling that these 3 are gonna end up in ES6 as their favorite race and being those critical view in like a cosmic library with a ton of elder scrolls and historic tomes from like before the first era to current lol
The ideal resolution to the war is if skyrim gains independents but signs a coalition agreement with the empire that promises to provide aid in the war efforts against the Thalmor
I think that it would be easier for the Stormcloaks to rule Skyrim than the Empire because, as you said, Skyrim is pretty split in terms of alliance between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. But the Stormcloaks are far more radical in their beliefs than most Imperial supporters in general. They care a lot more about what they believe in and will go to more extreme extents to ensure their freedom, I would think.
But ironically, SKyrim isn't just for the Nords. There are the Reachmen, the Skaal, and of course the other races that reside in Skyrim, but would be oh so proper-fucked if Ulfric was high king. You could 99.9% expect him to commit at least one genocide, and then inevitably wage war with the Thalmor (who are still aligned with the Empire) and just plunge Skyrim into military and economic collapse. The real question is not who should rule Skyrim, but is making Talos a god worth invoking the wrath of the Thalmor (and other non-nord races) and appeasing the Stormcloaks? If the Nords get Talos, then the HIst, the Khajiti pantheon, the Yokudan pantheon, all of it should be included and then Tamriel would be a land of free worship.
The Stormcloaks are also willing to indiscriminately bombard Whiterun’s inner city, quoted by Balgruuf “They are using fire shot, they aren’t aiming for the walls”. Also, they pillaged neutral village of Karthwasten. Stormcloaks are lawless barbarians, any nord with common sense knows the Thalmor are the true enemy and they know the Empire is going to fight them again. Evidence in Tulius dialogue and Legate Rikke as well as the Thalmor dossiers that prove they support the Stormcloaks so they can weaken the Empire.
@@definitelynotsigjirI disagree. The tendency is that the empire is gonna collapse, either way. The thalmor are just one little place though, Free Volenfell, Free skyrim, and Cyrodill can obliterate summerset isle. I just accept the empire's decadence, cause since the emperor's sacrifice in oblivion, the empire started to die. Emperor Titus Mede in skyrim just proves that the empire in skyrim is gonna destroy the hole land. Ulfric have a small territory, compared to the empire, but it is a new militia. Ulfric is like Lenin. If the stormcloaks win in the Civil War, the border's path is clean for the empire to pass, but the empire can't send troops, because they have their own borders to protect, that are even closer to Summerset Isles. High rock is the last place that the empire is gonna have hands on. I actually don't like the empire, cause they have a specific bloodline of vampires that don't have the eyeglow, which camouflages them inside the empire's court. Each province needs it's own empire. It can be... more interesting in my opinion.
Yep alvor at the start of the game said it perfectly. "People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim." "We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."
On Stormcloaks allying with the Dunmer. Doesn't have to be all of the Great Houses. Just Redoran. They're both Warrior cultures and Redoran is the de facto leader of both Solstheim and Morrowind as whole, and their primary power base is the area of Morrowind closest to Skyrim.
The Dunmer have their own prejudices and racism, including those against the Nords. Though at this point, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." does come to mind and could benefit both against the Thalmor.
@@LadyCoyKoi Eh, what do Dunmer gain here against the Thalmor? They never warred with the Dominion in the Great War, and are on the opposite side of the Continent. And if the Towers theory is correct, then Red Mountain is no longer a goal, it's deactivated
I think that people blame Ulfric for the executions of the townspeople/forsworn/forsworn supporters during the Markarth incident, but the Jarl was likely the one responsible for those executions. I can’t remember if this is stated in game or in some book/note, but I’m hesitant to pin the blame for all of that on Ulfric.
@@thalmoragent9344 If that guilt by association is to be applied to Ulfric then all the Imperials presiding at Helgen for our own execution would be guilty.
@@thalmoragent9344 The Forsworn are by no means innocent, as for the townspeople yes they're innocent so long as they weren't helping the Forsworn. However, Nepos the Nose makes it quite clear that it was the Forsworn who were executed by Ulfric. The supposed murders of the townspeople are blamed on the "Jarl" which was not Ulfric and would have been Hrolfdir or Igmund. Hadvar would be guilty since he stood by and did nothing as we were marched to the block. As for the Empire they planned on killing an illegal migrant and a horse thief as if they were enemies of the state, hardly worth executing someone for that.
When killing Ulfric at the end of the Civil War questline, Lydia yelled "You call yourself a Nord?!" at Ulfric. Never heard such a low blow in my life!
HOW DARE YOU KILL ULFRIC!!! I always side with the Stormcloaks because so many Imperial Sympathizers are corrupt and a few are even at the Thalmor Embassy. The only Imperial Jarl I wish could be spared is: Balgruuf.
@@kingclint2382 Her savagery is fine, though I personally by the time I do the Civil War Questline have Serana as follower and Lydia as a Steward for my Falkreath House.
One cannot deny the awesomeness of Vladimir Kulich (voice of Ulfric Stormcloak) in Skyrim. Whenever I rewatch this scene in the 13th Warrior, I envision Ulfric Stormcloak here in his final battle against the Reachmen. Have a go: ua-cam.com/video/-e9bZD86s3g/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Snugglefoots And yes, Ulfric is in fact not an enemy of the Empire, when it is true and just. He is fighting for Tiber Septim's name in the spirit of that more ancient and honorable dominion.
I would like you guys to talk about the ESO factions cause I loved each factions campaign and even made a full on argument for each faction and their values to end goals to determine my faction of choice. If you guys want I would be down to write out all the parts for y'all to review during the podcast. I think it's fun to talk about factions cause it helps us get into deeper concepts and I love to see everyone's level of reasoning. Cause it took me a year of playing the game fully and truly picking my fav faction when comparing their pros and cons.
An interesting note. When you get into Sovngarde, you will find both Stormcloaks and Imperials Solders and even their Leaders there, that strongly implies that one side isn't less Honorable than the other, at least by Nordic Standards of Honor. Seeing that Ulfric use claims of Nordic Tradition as a rallying cry, there is a lot to think about seeing that the Actual Nordic Gods (Not the 9/8 that was thought up by the Imperials) view both sides more or less the same
I can see three scenarios going forward into TES VI: a) Each province is independent, Empire crumbles. b) The Aldmeri Dominion conquers the other provinces, de facto becoming the new empire. c) Empire consists of Cyrodil, Skyrim and Highrock and is severely weakened.
1:05:11 Yes, I think it's still the same Empire. Just because it doesn't have the same dynasty doesn't mean it isn't the same empire. England have been ruled by many dynasties, have gone through many reformation, and a lot of cultural and technological change but people still considered it as the same England in the medieval times. And i haven't even mention the fact that the only change the Empire has is just territorial and what dynasty rule it; while the culture, law, and technology remain unchanged
the loss of the dragon blood emperor harms overall state identity. The worst thing to have been happening is the continuation of the empire and not the start of a republic. But weird thing is that cyrodill had counties with massive autonomy in oblivion, and each area boasts a unique culture sometimes tied closely to the neighboring provinces. The mede dynasty was famously founded by the conquest of cyrodiil, and it would seem like a natural progression for another fu civil war to unfold after the dark brotherhood assassination. The decades of talos ban have eroded the religious plight with youth, but i bet that most agree it is horrible having thalmor walking around. I'd imagine that massive midnight raids in the past have given insurgency movements in the province more legitimacy, (like those once done in afghanistan) and the reason the stormcloaks are able to push back so much is thanks to them. The empire has extremely proficient censors so we wouldn't hear much in skyrim if it meant that it would lead to more rebellion.
Can you guys do a podcast on Molag Bal? I would love to see his nature explored and solved by you guys. I just got done watching a video on a Skyrim mod called “Vigilant,” and some of the voice lines by Sheogorath helped flesh out the essence of his nature: Molag Bal. Fire-Stone. An ugly beast of Sithis. One who is burnt by stone, who burns his own soul-never finding respite. A jealous Daedra, who spites creation because he cannot die (return to Sithis) and find requiem.
Idk guys, I've binged this podcast over the last 2-3 weeks and 1 episode a week ain't cutting it anymore lol. Thanks for the amazing content guys, this kind of lore channel is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Super pumped for you 3 to hit 1mil subs sometime in the near future!
Honestly the biggest issue with all of this discussion is it’s very high level, we only get a few perspectives from random individuals and often they are very much an embodiment of a really one-sided mindset. I’d love to have had the opportunity to know what some of the elves and non-human races think of the whole situation. Often people you speak to are only interested in their own circumstances, dark elves in Windhelm being an exception due to their circumstances being a result of the civil war. Do imperialised elves care about Tiber Septim or what he did to their homelands or do they just want to live a life like many of the other races. I want to see the fall of the Cyrodillic empire and the rise of new powers so for me it would be way more interesting to see a Stormcloak victory then ES6 takes place after Ulfric’s death and we hear of a very different Skyrim who has won their independence but then realised they have many ‘foreigners’ who consider themselves citizens of Skyrim so we see a nation that has evolved in an unexpected way with a surprisingly diverse idea of what it means to be a true Son or Daughter of the land.
I imagine some of the Elves would see it as a practicality. I doubt Altmer or Bosmer would ever worship Talos, a human God, and one who had committed atrocities against their homeland relatively recently, however, any Altmer on Summerset or so may move to Cyrodiil for purely business reasons, as there's no point in letting humans explore and take in all they know of Summerset if they can't explore the other Provinces themselves, and if an Altmer couple has a kid on the mainland, then that kid grows up with some traditional Elven ideals, like Auriel instead of Akatosh, and they're only living in Mundus because of the Human gods... however are less staunch in their supremacy mindset than say, the Thalmor of course. So I imagine a lot of "Queen Ayrenn" type of Altmer are in Tamriel, so they know their history, acknowledge their origins and all that, but don't harbor hatred/animosity towards humans, and simply travel and live in Tamriel to make a living. Of course, that's the main way I'd assume many Altmer would approach it, I'm sure some would not like humans but soften up, or just view things the same they always do, but saw better opportunities out of Summerset. Some may not care as much, but I don't see many Mer really worshipping Talos at all, in all honesty. I see him as a purely human worshipped God, but that may just be me.
@@thalmoragent9344 i feel like the altmer are like china or successful north koreans where they project nobility, order and prestige to outside world but then when you find individuals outside the island they criticise the island as a stuffy, rigid society of tyrants ruling the masses and joy of escaping the hellhole that is summerset for freedom in tamriel
@@Angelo-nd4lg Eh, but then again, that may be more modern Summerset, under the radical Thalmor of this Dominion. Some other Mer did leave back in the Merethic Era to expand and spread upon Tamriel, like the Direnni and Aylieds to name a couple, so you're right that some may want to leave, but they kept their old ways regardless, so we may both be right in that respect
Well for the beast races they are probably pro-Imperial because of their anti-slavery stance, House Hlaalu I believe is the pro-Imperial dunmer house that likes trading with the Empire. The Orcs are probably happy because the Empire accepts everyone in society it’s a great opportunity for some that don’t want to live in a clan anymore.. ect I just think anyone in Tamriel that is tired of the same dogmatic shit get to live in a more modern and free society.
@@sercravenmohead3631 Eh, the Orcs just wanted their own place, and the Orcs may be accepted as Shock Troopers. The Empire doesn't really accept or respect all orcs, outside of, ya know, the occasional Heavy Imperial Trooper or Smith, but even then, plenty of strongholds existed even during the Empire
As an Irishman I always find myself sympathising with the stormcloaks. Ireland was colonised by Britain for 800 years so a big part of Irish culture is hatred for imperialism. However, although I sympathise and relate more to the stormcloakes,I always side with the imperials because there is ultimately a bigger picture being the Dominion.
Well no its more like 850 years and the Normans. Britain didn't exist. And to treat 1160s 'Britain' as 1 political entity is just ignorant. There were still Norse kingdoms in the British Isles on both Ireland and Britain at the time. Also gotta point out that the Normans we invited as mercenaries by the deposed King of Leinster to help reclaim his throne. And that he proper invasion by the Anglo-Normans was authorised and funded by the Catholic Church.
Skyrim is easily capable of defending itself from the thalmor. Rough mountainous terrarin on 3 sides that would be hellish to march an invading army through, and a stormy, iceberg laden sea to the north. Fortify the mountain passes and shut down the lighthouses along the sea of ghosts, and no amount of thalmor would be able to get through.
I think the reason so many people see the storm cloaks as the “bad guys” (including myself when I first played the game) is that their negative aspects are much more visible in game. You can see their racism played out in the world. With the Imperials it’s mostly the lore and the background narrative that brings their flaws to life. Also, the Thalmor being a separate entity from the Empire, makes it easier to ignore the religious persecution when siding with the Imperials. As a result the imperials seem more “good” on the surface, and the immediate (although flawed) conclusion is that they are the good guys.
They have no choice but to enforce the talos worship. The assessment isn’t flawed. The empire winning and fast with minimal casualties bring the best results
@@momsaid forced or not, that DOESN'T mean it's right that the empire is prohibiting Talos worship. heck, even Alvor, Hadvar's uncle in Riverwood, an empire supporter, says the empire was WRONG to ban Talos worship. that's NOT true, the assessment is INDEED *very* flawed, BOTH, the Stormcloaks AND the Empire have their pros and cons, which is why this is a civil war, and have some fleshed out characters like the main leaders from both sides, Legate Rikke & General Tullius, and Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak & Galmar Stone-Fist. otherwise, if it was so obvious to which side is correct, Bethesda would've never even gave us the option to join the Stormcloaks. a controversial and sad war with former friends/allies fighting each other but BOTH having justifiable reasons why they're fighting each other. but at the end, they both know they must prepare against Thalmor and their rule, it's just that one is also against imperial rule. that's also false, the empire winning wouldn't really change much, there would still be rampant Talos worshipping persecution (whereas the exact OPPOSITE would happen with a Stormcloak victory), and the Stormcloaks or another rebellion similar to them would most likely be back for revenge against the imperials (rightfully so). Tullius himself says something like that at the end of the empire quest line i believe of "i hope we didn't just create a Martyr". the SAME exact thing could be said tho with the Stormcloaks winning quickly and with minimal casualties, plus at least with Skyrim being independent, the entire province wouldn't have to abide by the White Gold Concordant anymore, which is a very GOOD thing 🐻💙💪
There is no cons to choosing the empire. Less imperials and Nords die and once the empire wins they can go back to worshipping talos in secret until they can garner enough power for an imperial victory over the thalmor. If the Stormcloaks win they just never stop fighting and even if they remain independent the people never know peace and so have no chance at real freedom. There’s only one outcome with potential positive long term results If the Stormcloaks were stronger maybe but they can’t even fight a tiny part of the imperial force
You’re right. I personally find the Imperials in Skyrim (not the ones canon throughout the whole of TES lore, just Skyrim) pretty weak and one dimensional.
@@momsaid Also at least we know that the empire is a conquesting power. Ulfric gives me some Brexit-y vibes that he’s only pushing for independence because he wants to be in control of Skyrim himself
We can talk about how one side winning would be better for ever without getting anywhere. But the narrative in-game clearly says that the Thalmor do not want either side to win and see a victory for Stormcloaks as an equally negative outcome for their goals as an Imperial victory.
It’s equally bad because it complicates things. Not because the Nords could win. If they can barely beat the empire they aren’t going to beat the thalmor
@@momsaid Yeah, this is what I always bring up. "bUt TeH tHaLmOr DoN't WaNt TeH sToRmClOaKs To WiN!" This does NOT mean it would be equally bad for them. Empire is the clear better choice if you want to stop the Thalmor.
Agree, they’re definitely not the same outcome. It’s like if Scotland kicked off and then went to war with like the Russia or something after they won. Yeh it’s going to be annoying for Russia but it’s going to be a lot less costly than Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India ect. All bowling in at the same time. The analogy could be used with Texas going to war with Russia. It’s not going to be as deadly as a United..err.. United States. It would literally just be like WW2 were Britain was on its own fighting. It held it’s own, yeh but it didn’t get anywhere until all the others joined in.
Yeah duh because if they both don’t win they keep fighting and weaken each other. It doesn’t mean the Stormcloaks winning isn’t a massively better result for them, it means it’s not quite as good as if they keep fighting and spending resources and lives fighting each other and wasting more
I think one of the major things about Jarl Ulfric’s “Liberation” of western Skyrim would set a precedent of succession via civil war. Assuming ulfric wins, and he dies a few years down the line, what is to stop multiple jarls from claiming the throne, and violently conquering the other holds to place jarls willing to support them in the moot to achieve this?
moral of the story: a great warrior isn't always a good king. if ulfric had've advised torig instead of killing him, skyrim would have had a much stronger position. I think ulfric wanted control and vengeance for the great war; damn the consequences.
@@23Raind that's a failure of information gathering, then, because literally all it takes to get that information is to ask a few of the people who know him. "Not public" is very different from "being kept secret", and anyone who doesn't bother to do basic reconnaissance and information gathering about something this historically important isn't qualified to rule. The LDB, with no skill in speech, has a trivially easy time getting this info. Any half-decent intel agent would have been able to do so, and this was supposedly something Ulfric planned and prepared for. It's one thing if he knew and just decided that the cultural tradition of solving disputes with combat was more important than seeking a diplomatic solution, which for cultural reasons could be seen as bad PR. But if it's actually the case that he would have been OK with a diplomatic solution and the only reason that didn't happen is because he didn't realize Torygg would have been willing to listen, then that means countless citizens of Skyrim died because he failed to do his homework.
@@23Raind fair enough, I just thought it was an interesting discussion and after all, people (like me) are still actively discovering this video. But there's obviously no need to respond if you don't want to.
@@Angelo-nd4lg I'm not sure how "homework" is relevant to that suggestion, there's no suggestion that Torygg didn't know any of that, Ulfric was being very loud about it. As for why he wouldn't say that, Ulfric challenged him publicly and their combat was public, there's no indication that they ever had a chance to speak privately. And saying any of that publicly while in court would have been tantamount to a declaration of war against the Thalmor, which would be incredibly reckless to do without any forethought or planning.
I personally got a huge problem with Skyrim in the Role Playing department. I think that more options and outcomes are missing. For example, a post civil war quest against the Thalmor is something that would greatly benefit the game. Or options for you to force a more welcoming, less racist attitude from Ulfric & Company in case you side with them. Or options for you to stop public executions and force some historic repair from the Empire (Angi's family assassinations and her persecution by the empire come to my mind).
The xenophobia of the Stormcloaks and the religious persecution by the Empire is part of what makes the choice of sides more compelling. The point is supposed to be where each side is neither all good or all bad.
I can't believe im just now discivering that you guys have a podcast. I've enjoyed your content for YEARS - excuse me while I lock myself into my Skyrim lair and listen to all your podcasts now Love you guys
People seem to forget about the Nord Empire back in the first/second era. The Nords had absolutely no problem defending themselves or even conquering Elves or other Humans all through history. They were only stopped because of the First Council. A Stormcloak victory could allow the Nords to return to this strength outside of Imperial control.
@@dutchpatriot17 They weren't stomped, they declined due to the War Of Succession and the Stormcloaks aren't the ones who signed the WGC, so who's really pathetic here?
A lot of their enemies were divided internally, the Nordic Empire was the first unified kingdom of men. When they fought the Direnni in Highrock the nords actually had support of most of the Bretons. In Morrowind they fought the Chimer and Dwemer but there was a lot of internal rivalries but even still they couldn’t take Vvardenfel, The Dwemer United with the Chimer and eventually drove out the nords. We know the nords helped out the Alessian rebellion against the Ayleids, again they were divided into city states and some of them were actually aiding the races of men.
The first nordic empire was made of atmorans the mystical dudes that slain an entire race of elves. The stormclacks defeated at water crossing by tulius they are such a weak faction that they are dependent on the Dragonborn(player character never take sides on the lore for obvious reasons) or a plot armor to work, the nordic provinces that support the empire are far more powerful than the stormclacks, the stormclacks can not unify skyrim and if the empire was directly involved in the war by just sending one legion ulfric's head would be on a pike. They are a cursed faction that the only thing they are doing is helping the thalmor by destroying skyrim.
@@rafaelexel93 The Altmorans had already left by the time High King Harald declared Skyrim an independent realm from Altmora and that was long before the Nords started creating their empire under High King Vrage. So learn the lore before you speak. Bruh Ulfric and his Stormcloaks escaped Tullius plenty of times before Tullius got lucky at Darkwater Crossing and killing Ulfric wouldn't end the war. Instead it would make him a martyr and would rally a lot more Nords under Galmar Stone-Fist. Both sides need the Dragonborn to win. The imperial holds are being drained of their resources and manpower by the empire, so they aren't doing any better than the Stormcloaks, plus the imperials aren't getting any reinforcements because according Tullius the empire already abandoned Skyrim and they don't care about the outcome of the civil war as they see it as a sideshow before the main event and in that case Skyrim has every right to stand up for itself, especially since it's the Imperials who are destroying Skyrim with their Thalmor masters and the Stormcloaks are saving it from both. In any case your criticisms on Stormcloak strength are irrelevant because you only judge their efforts during the civil war and you fail to see their potential after they win, in which case not only will they reform but also create new armies and without the empire leeching from it Skyrim will be able to use its own resources and manpower to become the powerhouse it always was in lore. It will certainly be more powerful than the empire eventually because it won't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat which allows Thalmor agents to infest the empire and destroy it from within.
The idea of going "Oh, Elenwin, these dragons sure are a problem, huh? It's such a shame you and your Thalmor guard got SLAUGHTERED by one so close to the summit!" and then just killing all of them is very appealing to me. I don't think Tullius would actually do much more than be slightly irritated with the paper work he would then have to carefully word, and Ulfric would be pleased as punch for this to happen. It'd make for a much better negotiation. It's not like they couldn't just go on with "conflict" to start to slowly funnel more and more Thalmor into a difficult-to-breach-and-difficult-to-escape kill zone where it would be equally as hard to get a proper communication line to to get more realistic details about the "conflict" that is actually there.
The Thalmor would catch on if more people went missing and they realized the Empire was taking note, nor are the Skyrim based Thalmor responding much at all, and the infiltration of the Embassy would also be big news to the Dominion. They could stop sending Thalmor there all together, but then you have less chance to spy on then or reas Dossiers on "Assets"
@@thalmoragent9344 That assumes there's an accurate reporting system, of which the Thalmor would not have reason to question up to that point. If over all the the conflict appears to be equally ramped up across the board, it would still look like a minimal presence. Either they keep sending their people in based on ratios lost vs. the enemy losses, they ramp it up to try to enforce it with a more hands-on approach, or they send fewer people in to try to enforce a ban. All of those things are a plus to this kind of misinformation campaign. If the Empire and Stormcloaks are still going with the "business as usual" war and the empire APPEARS to be putting honest effort into enforcement and APPEARS to be taking great losses, there's no precedent for proclaiming Great War 2.0 because it still APPEARS to be following the script. The crux of the conflict for the Empire/Stormcloak conflict is a ban on Talos worship, the crux of the Thalmor actually being present is to fan the flames. That's an important distinction of conflict that can be manipulated to make a bigger headache for the Thalmor resource-wise. It'd take a great deal or work to set up and run with, and it would be a risk, but it can be done. Failure of this plan only means the war is on again properly, which is an inevitability regardless, and the Empire isn't out Stormcloak backing anymore.
@@YourWaywardDestiny Yeah, but either way, they wouldn't be signing anything together since Talos Worship would still be banned, and overall, the Empire and Stormcloaks would still be at odds and fighting. Once Alduin is done for, then the war would be "business as usual", so your plan only works during the Dragonborn's request of a halt in the war, and once the Dragon War is over, then you'd see the 2 sides fighting all the same. Your plan sounds interesting and could work if applied very carefully, but even then, time is a big factor, and many Stormcloaks and Legionarries aren't gonna be too happy about suddenly being "buddy buddy" given they were just killing each other the day before and Talos Worship is still banned.
@@thalmoragent9344 I think you're thinking way more bureaucratically than I initially was. It's more like a Gentleman's agreement after a nice looong summit of talk for the higher ups to start casually deciding that maybe shifting troop movement around and rewording some key propaganda and possibly accidentally-on-purpose revamping their record keeping at an *inopportune* moment miiiight have some attractive up sides. I don't think Tullius would get clearance for anything so drastic as an actual permanent agreement in the first place, so it'd all have to be an under-the-table deal, and he wouldn't want to risk sending information like that to Cryodiil. And Ulfric, for as much as he's a bit slimy, is a Nord with honor who would at least like to project he's better than a piece of paper with a name on it. There's still actual conflict involved at least initially, just slowly turning the tides of who is wasting what and where. The only time they'd really be signing anything is if it started to go too far south and the second great war was officially declared. As much as the Stormcloaks dislike the Empire giving into the Aldmeri Dominion, I'm guessing they'd still sign on (albeit with a boatload more more legal fine print) to go to war with the Altmer. Nords just be like that with elves.
One thing about the Civil War - that I don't think was brought up but I haven't finished the video yet - is that I usually prefer the Imperial aligned Jarls vastly to the Stormcloak aligned ones. Balgruuf stands out in that regard, and Vignar Gray-Mane is likeable but doesn't seem to be the best ruler lmao when it comes to Whiterun.
@@garpogods8323 Honestly? I'd rather have Maven using political influence to make herself more powerful than an actually incompetent Layla Law-Giver just listening to sweet whispers from her wholly corrupt entourage and taking everything at face value. At least Maven will know the true going ons of the city, and anything that is an actual threat to citizens is probably going to be a threat to her mead empire as well.
@@deadseven3474 Honestly agreed, I hate Maven but her becoming Jarl just tells everyone who is actually in charge. Layla is infuriating as a Jarl, at least with Maven in charge there's the hope that she loses some influence as a consequence.
@@deadseven3474 personally just always had the impression her connections to the Guild and Brotherhood may eventually be setting up "accidents" for the next High King and thier rule.
@@deadseven3474 Incompenent leader is better than a compenent a**hole. Besides, in my playtrough Maven ordered the death of my family to the DB and at the start of the game they were going after me...thus I was trying to cross the border to escape. My character hates her. And unless you role-play, you're not really playing the game.
I am 2 years late with this theory, because I am listening to all of the episodes of the podcast again for the fifth time. Nonetheless, as evidenced by the initial concept which Michael reads at 24:35 and some of the assessments made by Scott earlier in the episode, there was initially meant to be a strong Asian influence, specifically Chinese, for the Imperials in The Elder Scrolls. My personal theory is that the Nibenese, given the obvious Asian name, would have had this heavy influence from China, whereas the Colovians would maintain more of a Byzantine and Roman influence and culture. The Nibenese would have likely inhabited the portion of Cyrodiil which is covered in jungle, closer to Valenwood and Elsweyr, and the Colovians would have inhabited the grasslands which we are familiar with from TES V: Oblivion. Of course, when the idea of a jungle Cyrodiil was ditched and explained away with Tiber Septim transforming the province, this was probably a reason for the Nibenese becoming simply Colovians and losing their unique culture. However, I think the main reason for this decision to make all of the Imperials simply Romans (Colovians) was because of Akavir and the fact that all of the Chinese influence had already (or perhaps it had been decided around the time the game was being made) been given to the Akaviri. They did not want the Imperials to have the same cultural influence as the Akaviri, and so decided to do away with this concept for the Nibenese and Cyrodiil as a whole. As we see with the Blades in The Elder Scrolls V: Oblivion, this Asian/Chinese influence which had been the concept for the Imperials had instead been transported to them by another race (the Akaviri/Tsaeci), and I would argue that the use of the katana and the armour motif of the Blades was originally meant to be the Imperial armour and weapons of the Nibenese and have nothing to do with the Tsaeci.
Alright bois so I've just absolutely binged watched ALL your podcasts in three weeks. The only thing that sucks about it is that I now have to wait a week between episodes. Keep up the great work, love y'all!
I feel like the storm cloak ending will be canon because it makes for a much more interesting political scene come ES6. The second Great War is coming 🔥
@@smithingbear7522 True they’ll more than likely go with season unending as the cannon. I just hope not bc then it kinda takes away from the endings we experienced as players IMO
@@maxgoss5653 I'm thinking they'll say something happened but they won't describe what happened so that any ending to those quests could feasibly happen.
If they actually confirm an ending it would probably be the one that would have happened without the Player Character there. So imperial if it happens.
Running devils advocate for the murder of Toryg, it's easy to look back in hindsight as the player & see that Toryg was a big fan of Ulfric & probably would have given him what he wants; but Ulfric didn't know that. From Ulfric's perspective he's been betrayed by the empire, the people of Skyrim are being oppressed and there's a weak boy sat on the throne.
Also Ulfric would need to share more power and discuss things with someone he probably saw as a tainted nord. Another thing, the need for a conflict presses the envelope on radicalization. Ulfric is a cult of personality.
What if a nord dragonborn joined the storm cloaks gained fame fighting, monsters, thalmor and imperials. Somewhere along the way Ulfric dies in battle the dragon born becomes the new storm cloak leader. The dragon born starts to garner support to become high king and starts advancing into western skyrim. Meanwhile the dark brotherhood assassinate the emperor and kill the elder counsel member who hired them. The chaos allows the dragon born to push the advantage across skyrim assault the Thalmor embassy and take Haafingar hold. A moot is then held if the player has kissed enough Jarl ass they become high king. Alternatively if the dragonborn joined the legion a similar thing could happen except you can garner favor with imperial generals. You gain fame as dragonborn and the empire starts taking land in Eastern Skyrim. Delphine discovers your identity as dragonborn and seeks you out. You start covertly hunting down thalmor and their supporters. You use the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric to discredit him and the storm cloaks start losing support. After the assassination of Titis Meade Ulfric decides to challenge the dragonborn I'd imagine him saying I'll match my thu'um against yours or something. The dragonborn then defeats Ulfric in nord combat reforms the blades and makes a bid to become emperor.
@ABCDEFG yes but the basis of the entire civil war is that the Empire interpreted it as murder. Also Ulfric knew full well that it wasn't a fair challenge, Toryg didn't stand a chance against him & Ulfric knew that full well.
17:21 This sounds like Ulfric’s big speech to Galmar when you first enter the Palace of the Kings. “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”
I see a lot of similarities between Skyrim civil war and Pellopennesian/Ancient Greek civil war (431 - 405 BCE) between Spartan aka Stormcloak and Athen aka The Empire. Both happened after a great war against foreign invasion (Aldmeri Diminion / Persian Empire). Both use the classic Red vs Blue to represent each side (though in Skyrim, the colors are switched). And both civil wars was sponsored by the invaders behind the screen. If Bethesda really use Pellopennesian war as reference, then we know who won this war, spoiler alert its Spartan aka Stormcloak.
SAME. Sometimes I wonder if people who believe that Ulfric is a SeCrEt AgEnT had read the entire dossier... or if they are just stupid. There are plenty of reasons to criticise Ulfric, why stick to some conspiracy theories?
Except for the fact that Ulfric's status as asset predates the civil war. As a matter of fact, at present he's listed as both an uncooperative and dormant asset. Ulfric's status as asset comes from the Great War. The entire Market Incident is where he proved his value to the Thalmor. Man literally had direct contact with the Thalmor up until his arrest at Markarth.
@Sanguine Nope. The torture was during the Great War. Ulfric established direct contact after the Great War, and remained cooperative to said contact until his arrest at Markarth. The whole Markarth Incident is a direct result of Ulfric's collaboration with the Thalmor.
I feel like a podcast episode between 3 lore masters debating who the strongest TES protagonist is would be amazing to listen to. Regardless of that keep up the great work guys, your content is awesome. CHRIST IS KING
@@theone2762 Idk about “for sure”. The HoK is a Daedric Prince and TLD can pause time with his voice alone. None of these individuals are pushovers in the slightest. CHRIST IS KING
@@basedautist3761 yeah I kinda forget about HoK becoming Sheogorath, that could be helpful. But, well that means that HoK kinda is capable of no one know what, and so I'm not sure if stopping time can help you in fighting with someone who can change you into a sweetroll at will.
@@theone2762 HoK mantling Sheogorath is huge, but Nerevarine defeated multiple demi-gods and TLB defeated the World Eater and prevented the next Kalpa from initiating. The one thing I will say is that TLB being able to stop time with his voice is absurdly powerful. You can have all the amazing spells and potential buffs allotted to the other combattants but if time stops the moment the fight begins and TLB hits you before you can activate them, you’ll probably die. I’m not sure if that matters against HoK considering he effectively became a Daedric Prince. It really depends on how Alduin scales to the Daedric Princes. Edit: Although it is only in game, the Slow Time shout affects everything in the world around you. This includes the many Daedric entities you encounter in Skyrim. I’m not sure if that should be considered a gameplay concession or not, but based on the lore behind the Thu’um I don’t think it’s crazy to say a strong enough user could affect Daedric Princes with it.
@@basedautist3761 the problem with Alduin is that he's technically a god and he should be able to stop time and kinda use any other shout as well and only reason he doesn't is that so we as a player had a chance facing him.
@FudgeMuppet, I have two questions 1. Is there any way for a mortal to permanently kill a Daedric Prince? (Lore wise) 2. Can the Daedric Princes know fear?
1. No, no daedra can be really killed, their essence just get sent to waters of obliviin and then they are getting reborn. 2. Yes. Read "spirit of daedra", I guess it was the book. It says something like: " Scamps don't think much and feel much fear, vermai don't think at all and don't feel any fear and dremora think deeply and feel deep fear" I guess daedra Lords think even deeper than dremora so guess yourself what comes from it.
1. I believe, one can kill a Deadric prince by slaying their avatar in their realm, and then destroying or claiming their realm as well, as that is an aspect of them. 2. Yes I don't know too much about it, but i think mortals (with the help of Meridia) kill an Avatar of Molag Bal in ESO, and there is some talk about how this makes him dangerously vulnerable. and then with Jygallag and the Hero of Kvatch, you free Jygallag by claiming his realm that bears the curse of Seogorath. so if one were to destroy the Avatar, and then claim or destroy the realm where they will be reborn, one would in essence destroy the Deadric Prince. in the act of claiming however, some... undesired. traits would certainly rub off, leading the claimer to most likely assume the role of the slain prince in a process similar to mantling.
I wouldn't say stormcloaks as a whole are xenophobic, even ulfric himself asks bretons of high rock to help but their don't reply, I think with nords you have to earn their respect they dont just give it. once you have earned their respect they will leave you alone this is even implied by niranye a high elf.
Exactly as a redguard traveling tamriel the stormcloaks accept my plea of service with no issues but a little test but those imperials just want to take my head
I remember that in the Jagged Crown quest Ralof says that he had heard some bad things about Ulfric and had been quite disappointed but still wouldn't quit the Stormcloaks. As being the Thalmor asset is probably well guarded secret, I think that he was talking about the racism towards other races. Remember that no matter your race, you are always considered a friend by Ralof. While Ulfric and most of the Nords in Windhelm may be xenophobic, I think it can't be applied to ALL of the Stormcloaks. Most of them are probably people feeling betrayed by the Empire, hoping that as an intependent kingdom Skyrim would be much better place to live. That's why I think most people judging the Stormcloaks are pretty unfair. Right, Ulfric is an asshole when it comes to how he acts or how he treats non-human races. But the Stormcloaks as an army are full of brave men who wish to liberate their people from Thalmor's oppression. Even Tullius and Rikke understand and respect that, although obviously they stay loyal to the Empire and fight the rebels.
@@ezraefraimbies9770 also ulfic is most likely unaware of being a thalmor asset like let's be honest he would hate to be used as a thalmor asset and if he knew he would like do something about it
@@danielshore1457 I side with the Empire and I also think that he would and should be pretty pissed about learning to be a Thalmor asset, but honestly, the fact that Ulfric lets the High Elf merchant hang out in the city but makes the Dunmer sit in the slums, the Argonians stay out in the East Empire Bunkhouses because they're not liked by the Nords of the city, and Khajiit are completely banned from the city just like the rest of Skyrim is kinda weird. Why is there no extreme racism towards the High Elves according to the merchant, who lead the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor? It's always sat weird with me idk why, maybe it literally is that they look more like humans than the other races I listed
I'm a Skyrim baby and initially joined Ulfric and his rebellion. It was then I realized something was wrong with my decision. Thus delving into the TESLore commenced. A United Empire is the best route to go in the big picture.
I thought the war as a backdrop was interesting from the beginning, but it's amazing how it just improved with age. It's so incredibly nuanced, no answer is the right one, except that one side must win over the other. Personally I've shifted from Empire to Stormcloaks over the years, but I don't begrudge anyone for staying Empire.
@Sanguine Gameplay limitations are the reason for that. For example, most of the cities you see are supposed to be much bigger than you see in gameplay. They did better with that in ESO but I think it's easier in a MMO than a RPG. Even the civil war in the game was supposed to be much bigger because you can see a lot of it on cut content. It's very hard to depict everything perfectly without causing a nuclear explosion on PCs and consoles. I am Obi Juan Quenobi, leading skooma dealer in Tamriel, and thank you for attending my TED talk.
@Sanguine Tbh the LDB would give the tribunal a run for there money, the thu’um is one of the most busted abilities in the ES universe. Keep in mind LDB knows Bend Will and dragonrend. He or she absorbed Miraak’s soul which in tail means he absorbed all of miraaks knowledge on the thu’um and his powers/abilities on the thu’um as well. With all that said where looking at an individual who can challenge lesser to normal like gods and can take over entire armies by making them his or her own.
I kinda lean into the Stormcloak side for the solid reason that both in Elder Scrolls lore and in real life history, Empires after they reach a specific point only crumble and fall. The Septim Empire will never be the same Empire that it once was, you can think it like the Empire it is based on, the Roman Empire. It will keep crumbling and crumbling. So I think that it is better to jump ship than drown with it. But saying this I have a conspiracy theory that I haven't seen anyone really discuss, what if Aldmari Dominion pretended to lose Hammerfell. Like what if they decided that "Instead of committing 100% and waste years trying to conquer them, why don't we let them have their brief independence and that way we can have people thinking they stop us solo and rebel against their Empire."
Bethesda did a fairly good job at making both factions equally unlikable. That being said, I typically side with the Stormclocks because I like their rebellious nature and dislike authority. Not to mention, the empire is crumbling and only but a shell of what it used to be.
You hit it perfectly, Bethesda made them both equally unlikeable! You literally have to choose between a group with open racists in it vs a group that is enabling the genocide of a religious group!
It's hard not to sympathize with the storm cloaks but the idea that they could hold off the Thalmor alone when the empire couldn't do it united is also hard to believe.
You also have to consider that if the Dragonborn we’re to side with the storm cloaks the Thalmor would not stand a chance. Also along with the terrain of Skyrim that’s probably part of the reason the Thalmor lost Hammerfell.
@@FazeParticles Stormcloaks arent really guerrilla fighter, now are they? Way more for open combat as that is honerable and leads to Valhal... I mean Sovengarde.
If the Stormcloaks are able to do hit and run operations, not get caught in drawn out fights and just be enough of a pain to hold out, they got a decent chance since if they hide their allegiance, you wouldn't be able to tell. Doe that goes out the Window if the Thamlor just goes in with it full magical front but that seems unlikely unless they really need something
@@Littleeqb the dragoborn is most likely going to be a non factor. Can't really have new story's with characters that strong around, it's partly why the neverine wasn't in Morrowind during the oblivion crisis
Redguards: "The White-Gold Concordant is injust and our provinces can survive on our own with ease." Nords: "Agree. Elves must not dictates the fate of Men." Empire: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
The difference is that the Redguards didn't wage war with the Empire, they kept fighting and seceded from the Empire, renounced by Titus Mede the second himself.
@@sleepykhajiit1875 Yeah, so why doesn't Ulfric "take our want to the Dominion" instead of fighting the Empire? They could've done what Hammerfell did, but just stead fought the Empire. The Empire didn't invade Skyrim, if I recall correctly, Skyrim joined this Empire willingly under Tiber Septim, and they were in the Empire when the Great War started. The Empire didn't do any invading. The Stormcloaks are rebelling against the Empire, not defending it from invaders, considering many of them were actually in the Legions as well... so 🤷🏿
As while they agree that elves aren't that good, they would very much disagree about Shor (AKA, Lorkhan). The comparison to Shor for the Redguards is Sep. Redguards don't like Sep.
It is interesting to see how often people - myself included, no doubt, I"m not immune to this - project their current situations and ideals onto what they see in the situation in TESV. For example, making decisions about the Civil War, choosing a side based on the perceived evils of racism being exerted by the Stormcloaks. It's a different world, where different races treat each other differently; it's not modern, industrialized Western cultures where everyone has air conditioning, access to the internet, and modern dentistry, after all. Passing judgement on characters for behaving in ways that are incongruent with how you were raised because they lived in an entirely different culture is rampant, and admittedly difficult to avoid.
I would like to bring up a tactical fumble made by ulfric and tulius. The use of magic in their ranks are highly limited. Even bandit camps will usually have at least one mage in their midst, and that mage can be a huge pain to deal with.
I’d say both are equal. The 3 things I love about the imperials are Jarl Balgruuf, Hadvar, and the Whiterun guards, and the 2 things I love about the stormcloaks are not being friends with the thalmor and being blue instead of red.
The marshy hot springs to the south of Windhelm would be a great place to plant a Hist tree. The way the Stormcloaks are portrayed in game is a huge missed opportunity. The Nords' desire to name their own kings and to worship their old gods could be a compelling reason for the Civil War. But it would be very interesting if in order to fight the war that Ulfric, being a shrewd diplomat, had to ally with the Argonians and the Dunmer and put aside old prejudice. He promises the Argonians the lightly inhabited marsh lands of Morthal and conquers Solstheim on behalf of the Dunmer. The ultimate irony of Ulfric could be that in order to escape the control of the Empire and restore the old Nord way of life he needs to become like them and gift land and political semiautonomy to lizard men and Daedra worshippers.
There are big ol fuck off statues of Azura and Boethia to the north and south of Windhelm respectively. I don't think Daedra worship would actually be that big of a problem for him. He lets Dunmer in but not Argonians cause slavery. Dosent let Kats in cause dominion owns them. Separates Nords and Dunmer cause slavery and the false Tribunal made Shor perma dead.
@@dutchpatriot17Such is the battle of winning hearts and minds. The Imperials also committed executions without a trial. Also didn't help that Gen Tullias was seen speaking with the Thalmor upon arriving to Helgen. In a hypothetical scenario, it'd be pretty dumb siding with the Imperials.
Late to the party, but it's an interesting topic so I'll add my two septims. On religion and Imperialisation: Tiber Septim is (allegedly) of Nord descent, and became the Ninth Divine in the Imperial pantheon as Talos (though he should've been called Ysmir in Skyrim) I think of him both facilitating the imperialisation and the distinguishness (you know what I mean) of Skyrim and the nords: as Talos he is the face of the Empire and what it has accomplished, and also Ysmir he is the Dragonborn God Talos, the Dragonborn Conquering Son, the first new god of this cycle ("_the end of a cycle is said to be preceded by the Dragonborn God, a god that did not exist in the previous cycle but whose presence means that the current one is almost over"_ - excerpt from Skyrim design documents). He exists appropriately in both cultures. However, I do also believe the imperialisation is a detriment to the Nord people because the Nine Divines pantheon is one where Elf and Man are joined, and important aspects of gods are lost to placate the other side. What Ulfric means with "the old ways" I have no idea, since he is so hung up on Talos that I suspect he doesn't even heed the others. From a political point of view though, or a long term at least, then the Empire is the favourite simply because it would breed trade and peace... although, that may be for naught, since the End is near and the next cycle is soon about to begin.
I always took it that like the empire has been in control of skyrim so much that the nords have forgotten the worship of their old gods etc. Now I think when Ulfric says return to old ways he means that. I do hate how like people only see stormvloaks as racist when like from actual stormvloaks we don't see that much racism, we see nords being racist but that doesn't mean stormvloaks are racist. And I would say that Ulfric has a very justifiable reason to hate elves
Talos is the Shezzarine Hjalty Earlybeard and was no Nord. In this shezzarine He become Emperor. And Hjalti earylbeard was Born in Alcair, so probably breton or half Breton. His father have also a Nord Name, but wie dort now his mother.
I have a suggestion for you - Start a new playthrough with an Alternative start mod. Playthrough the various guilds without having dragon shouts. The difference its made to my playthrough is immense. You can play the majority of Dawnguard DLC, but Whirlwind Sprint is required later. It really helps you feel like you're "normal" character in the game, and not some demigod. Also, characters such as Mercer Frey's skepticism feel much more justified.
Well, you use shouts anywhere outside of combat? I mean, play factions without Thu'um is like normal playing for me, I rarely use the voice anywhere in unmodded game. Like when you don't have enemies with a ton of health and armor and stuff you only use fus to dah to throw some bandit from the top of the mountain/tower/whatever.
@@theone2762 People don't start referring to the Dragon Born until you've killed the first dragon at the tower. Faction leaders are skeptical of you until later in their respective questlines. They see you as a normie that "has potential" instead of a demi god having potential. The difference to immersion is infinitely better.
Personally, I believe any ruling power that allows a foreign power to round up and torture its citizens for religious reasons (or does that itself) has lost the right to govern. And if you say the Nords could just pray to Talos in secret, ask yourself if this is something you truly believe to be acceptable.
Acceptable? No absolutely not but this is the elder scrolls and you're going to be sacrificing some morality regardless of who you choose, hell even Tiber septum himself was a huge warmongering asshole. I just think the empire has a slightly better chance of surviving the thalmor, but honestly Skyrim seems fucked either way
@@23Raind you'd be sacrificing a lot either way. I didn't say anything about the racism because it's going to exist either way and doesn't factor into my decision and the evil politician thing goes both ways. Also the land was already ruled by people who thought they want what's best for Skyrim and boiling down the empire to people just trying to line their own pockets is dumb because the Nords fighting for the empire do care about Skyrim. And while I do agree that Talos us worshiped by many he obviously means more to the Nords and many only worshiped him because he became Talos after conquering many lands and killing a shit ton of people in his way. And I agree that the thalmor are a threat to everybody, but without the empire all Skyrim has to defend itself is a faction of rebels led by the guy it only took Tulius a couple months to defeat. I'm all for a free Skyrim but I don't trust the stormcloaks to defend it against the dominion and as dying and fucked as I think the empire is I think they have the best chance at survival. That's not to say the stormcloaks don't have a chance tho I'm not really that against them as much as I just think the empire has a slightly better chance.
@@Extradecentskeleton I feel like people underestimate the stormvloaks like if we were to go by actual lore stated then they could put up a pretty good fight against the thalmor as the only invasion the aldmeri dominion could have is by sea which if we follow lore than the only expert navigators of the sea of ghosts? Nord raiders
That's the biggest issue I have with the civil war Questline, ever since I learned a bit more about the Lore of the Elder Scrolls. Since I discovered the dosier the Thalmor had on Ulfric in their embassy, I always wanted to go to Ulfric and show this dosier to him, show him, how he unintensionally plays the Thalmor right in the hands, and maybe persuade him to secretly take up diplomacy with Tullius, to at least get them to agree on a ceasefire, but preferably convince both, that it'd be more beneficial to secretly plot against the Thalmor.
“They built roads, they tried to establish trade routes, but in the end it all failed. The argonians didn’t want it in the first place, and then it just became a prison state” I never realized Black Marsh was supposed to be an analogue of Australia.
Black Marsh is also like Australia in the aspect that everything in nature wants to kill you.
😂
I think for Australia it’s more in the reverse. Prison state to building roads and instead of it failing it actually succeeded. 🇦🇺
Australia is basically a prison colony right now... so full circle... 😔
Sounded more like Afghanistan to me.
Argonians living in Morthal makes more sense to me. Since Hjaalmarch is mostly marshland it seems like a better place for them to live as it's the closest environment in Skyrim to Black Marsh
I assumed they were slaves or descendants of slaves who arrived at the same time as the Dunmer.
@@ltloxa1159 Assuming that, and the 1/10th of an ok salary thing, it would be really hard for them to gather enough resources to make a trip to black marsh.
Whose boat would take them (considering the prejudice)? Wouldn't their Nord bosses try to have them arrested? Would they risk passing through Morrowind (broken as it is) and get recaptured as slaves? The other way by boat it's almost a full circle around Tamriel (and goes through AD territory).
The "safest" option I think would be going to Riften (maybe getting some help from the fellow Argonians there) and trying to cross the mountains into Cyrodil and then through nibenese lands to Argonia. But even then such a trip would have its risks.
@@DanSujão Hey you, you're finally awake. You were trying to cross the border, right?
Yeah no, going through Riften ain't the brightest idea either.
true that, it would have been interesting to find a small agonian only encampment out in the marshes or something.
There is a swamp south of windhelm for the argonians they probably go to the city for work which is probably in demand for an aquatic race
Over a decade later and we're still debating this question. God I love this game.
If only the user interface didn't suck so much.
yeah the Civil War in TES V: Skyrim's *can be* pretty controversial (kinda like picking between team Cap and team Iron Man in MCU's 2016 Captain America: Civil War) and hard choice to pick (there's always the 3rd neutral option too of course thankfully) *for some* , but it's honestly starting to become kind of a toxic debate lol, plus politics *can be* pretty boring and stressful. i love this game so much too, except when it freezes and crashes 😡😡😤😤
It’s almost as if they grew up from when they were 15 and bought a Mature game. As you grow up you learn to have some introspection on old views you had and you reevaluate.
pshhh there's no debate clearly... ughh.. clearly the... empire.. but the Storm cloaks get a really bad wrap... shit, I'll get back to you
@@pistolero9836get a mod for it, the ui is made for a controller of course it sucks on keyboard
I like how the Skyrim civil war reflects wars in the real world. We all see wars from a biased perspective, enforcing a "we are the good guys, and they are the bad guys" perspective. In Skyrim you learn of the war from a perspective that lies somewhere in the middle. That's why it's so easy to make an argument for either side.
I don't know. The one in Ukraine seems pretty black and white, yet people try to push the narrative that it's not as if Russia has ever been the good guys.
As someone that is EU skeptic I do feel allot for the Stormcloaks, but that is my bias coloring how I look at the game.
I can't stand the Thalmor, and my latest PC, an Altmer, joined Ulfric! Much fun.
@@TFAricHow can you still be so EU skeptic when you see how well that turned out for the UK? 😂
@@notforgotten3685 Alderaan didn't want to be part of the Galatic Empire and look how it turned out for them.
UK was big part self sabotage from an inept leader and that the EU wanted to make an example to scare others from leaving, the whole thing made me respect the EU even less.
I think it often gets swept aside due to the oversimplification of the civil war in the fandom, but BSG did a really incredible job building a complex conflict that had no truly “correct” winner. A really solid argument could be made for either side and they don’t get enough credit for the amount of layers there are to consider in your decision
Though they could’ve done better honestly.
It amazes me so many people missed the subtleties. For example, the are a lot of pro Stormcloak players who don't see an issue with ultranationalism faction mistreating the other races.
@Sanguine I feel like you are they type of person who would applaud putting the Japanese Americans in internment camps, because there were spies that mapped out Pearl Harbor. "The Japanese were even more racist against other Asians".
@@badluck5647 I feel like you are the type of person who would applaud putting those "reactionary" people who think Einstein was right into chinese death camps, because they don't share your opinion. Nice ad hominem by the way. Maybe next time you should consider that this is a game world, not the real world. Sanguine is right, they are almost all xenophobic. The Empire was basically the only thing that "forced" them to be open.
Quite so. Which side of the civil war I join comes down to the values of the character I'm playing. Do they care more about the totalitarian persecution going on, Thalmor agents going around like the Gestapo, openly dragging thought criminals off to torture while the Empire considers this a price worth paying to avoid open war with the Dominion? Or do they care more about Stormcloak xenophobia versus Imperial cosmopolitanism? Do they believe that the Empire is ultimately a dying force? Or do they think the Empire is the most viable way to eventually push back the Dominion? Do they think Skyrim can stand alone against the Empire and the Dominion? Or do they think the Stormcloak project is ultimately doomed? Or do they think, even if it _is_ doomed, it's better to go out fighting the Thalmor to the last, than a peaceful but slow decline? In the end it comes down to roleplaying.
*plays argonian*
“I have no horse in this race”
They've actually got lizard horses, you can you them in ESO.
Let the Hist guide you
You are the horse in this race ....
"I have no horse in this race."
- Lokir of Rorikstead
@Sanguine Jesus Christ, that's nasty. :D
If they had kept more of the old Nord religion intact, at least in eastern Skyrim, the Stormcloak cause would be more compelling.
Yeah, I have a feeling even the devs had an Imperial bias. I still love the Stormcloaks tho
They’d be more compelling if the Thalmor wasn’t secretly supporting them.
@@goblez5900 imperial bias? For most of the game we are shown/told about the imperials being bad and storm cloaks good!
Imperials Tring to execute you
Empire working with the dominion
Empire subjugation locals
Empire banning talos worship
Imperials arresting stormcloak supporters
Thalmor arresting talos worshipers
And all we are told is storm cloaks want it to stop
And yet the Empire is still the most popular choice.
Because It's not until alot of further digging that you learn the Imperials arnt the big bad guys and the storm cloaks arnt the good guys (no one is).
@@goblez5900 My memory is a little fuzzy, did the Thalmor want Ulfric to win or did they just want to keep the war going
@@sercravenmohead3631 they're not secretly "supporting"
Parthurnax should be emperor. He just seems so nice.
When you realize he has a better claim to the throne than almost everyone but you
yes
@@martinhill9561 hence why you slaughter him but legit fuck the blades they literally do nothing for me and then ask me to kill the cool dragon who helped me kill his brother like tf I will happily never talk to you weirdos ever again
I'd side with him
I agree entirely, the political prestige the empire would get from that would overwhelming. The literal saviour of all humanity from the Dragon Wars, the direct (now eldest) son of the main god of the Imperial Cult. If I was some farmer in the empire I'd pledge my life to him in a heartbeat.
Don’t let this distract you from the true threat: the Thalmor.
The obviously manipulated the entire thing. I don't think they turned Ulfric but they broke his faith in the empire. They made the Empire ban Talos worship to turn some of the Nord people against the Empire. They made the Empire surrender Hammerfell lands to turn the Redguards against the Empire. Who knows what they have done in Highrock. Their intent was the fracture the Empire, and it worked.
THIS. Honestly, what I really want is the option to bop Ulfric and Tullius over the head with rolled up newspapers until they realize that the Thalmor are their actual enemies and maybe they should stop killing each other because the main thing that accomplishes is making the Thalmor very, very happy.
@@asraarradon4115 only thing with this is i lowkey think that the hammerfell breakoff was a deliberate move against the thalmor since terrain wise hammerfell is much harder to control and the empire had already drained much of the thalmors most valuable and important assets, letting the the redguards bleed out the high elves for a little longer after the imperials had already pushed them back and stopped their assaults advance. obvs the redguards would definitely see the greater benefits of independence, but just the demeanor of the emperor when you meet him and the background on the Great War seems like that may have been a calculated move to benefit the empire in the long run
What about Thalmor puppet states like the Empire?
@@CatHasOpinions734 Tulius does realize the Thalmor Threat. After addressing the troops after killing Ulfric. He states they'll have to fight again. However, he needs to put down this rebellion to secure The Empire's territory. Try defending your lands with a rebellion on your hands. It will not go well for you and what else is a Empire suppose to do? Let the rebellion happen that'll weaken them in the future? No.
FudgeMuppet: brings up imperial vs stormcloak debate
Me: Ahhh shit here we go again
I hear you cap'n
I like how you guys stay on topic, and never stray to far, and when you do get off topic, you easily get back on track.
They the greatest to ever do it
People wanting to rule their own land and defend their home against foreign forces that have outlawed their primary deity... It's hard to not empathize with the Stormcloaks.
Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."
Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."
Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."
Ulfric is one big dick dude.
Big Dick, former known in the Imperial Legion as Bigus Dickus, is, indeed, as they say, a big dick dude.
Dude is definitely a very deeply written character. And very polarizing
@@birdnoir5841 😂
You've fallen for the populist rhetoric brother. Stop worshipping Aludin (or whatever you fucks do up there north of Bruma) and rejoin the Red Diamond.
It's really not all that difficult once you learn that Ulfric's the reason why the ban is being enforced.
And when you learn of the fact that you can still worship Talos even if the Empire wins.
One thing I've never heard mentioned about the civil war is that all of the Stormcloak holds are pretty economically run down or "shadows of their former selves" in some way. We have Windhelm which despite being a major port city akin to Solitude, isn't economically booming nearly as much and the place just seems run down and has more poverty in general. Riften used to be a lot more massive prior to it burning down around a century earlier and we all know what happened to Winterhold. Dawnstar seems to be the only stormcloak hold that's stable but it's only a minor hold.
Realizing this made me think that one of the reasons those particular holds joined Ulfric is maybe due to economic reasons, if the capital is brought back to Windhelm than maybe Ulfric would benefit the eastern holds in the same way that the Empire benefits the western holds.
If you check the conversations between the NPCs at the Blue Palace in Solitude you will see that imperial holds aren't doing any better, because the empire is leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower with taxes and the like. Which is one of the many reasons why Stormcloaks are rebelling as mentioned by both Ulfric and Ralof.
@@teyrncousland7152 why can’t they just try and strengthen the empire instead of causing more dead and division then?
@@paladinheadquarters7776 because the empire is a corrupt husk of decaying flesh rebel my dear nords the redguards wait eagerly for your victory and allegiance
@@paladinheadquarters7776
Well for one as I mentioned in my other comment, the empire is apparently leeching Skyrim's resources and manpower as proven by the conversations at the Blue Palace in Solitude. Thus "strengthening" the empire weakens Skyrim substantially.
Secondly the empire is the very reason why humans are in this mess. Nobody trusts or should trust the empire anymore because nobody wants a second White Gold Concordat.
Finally thanks to the White Gold Concordat the empire is now infested with Thalmor agents throughout its provinces. These agents are now able to easily undermine, sabotage and destroy the empire from within by various means (many of which we see in-game), making the whole point of strengthening the empire moot. The only hope the humans have now is to make new states that aren't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat and that also means destroying the empire in the process. Especially since at this moment the empire allows Thalmor influence to spread throughout Tamriel thanks to the White Gold Concordat, thus weakening the empire at this point also weakens Thalmor influence on Tamriel.
Well as an emerging faction they don’t have any trade partners, say the Stormcloaks win. Who would actually trade with them? They hate foreigners, everyone else doesn’t like nords. I can’t imagine high rock would tolerate them because they kill reachmen who are Bretons. The Empire is the only way they have access to trade and I think it’s less economically beneficial to cut ties.
I find it funny that you can side with the Empire and still kill the Emperor as the Listener for the Dark Brotherhood.
I love the theory that the emperor himself is the one who put the contract
Internal power struggle?
True @Luke Hart. If you think about it, the internal power struggle seems to be the real mechanic of Skyrim. The Civil War, The Dark Brotherhood, The Thieves Guild, The Cydna Mine Incident in Markarth, the Dawnguard vampire questline, even the main questline; all have elements of an internal power struggle.
I always looked at it like I was choosing the lesser of two evils when I chose the empire, but the emperor wasn’t fit to lead anymore so we take him out.
@@jakehouston7721
Meh I always see self-determination as quite ideal, so it's always Stormcloak for me.
Someone actually understands the word asset. Nice.
Plenty of people do. Unfortunately, these three don't.
@@dutchpatriot17 you again? Didn't you have some other dumb opinion from before?
@@SuperLumianaire Shouldn't you be insulting people again because you have a hard time forming arguments?
@Sanguine You ought to work on your writing skills, pal. Your interpunction is pretty poor.
@Sanguine Sure is a pity that you struggle to understand context, then.
I enjoyed the idea of red guards teaming with a fractured nord populace. Would love to hear this expanded upon in the next episode! Cheers love the content as always.
Wow.. last time i was in this early Torygg was still alive
Last time I was in this early, Glenroy and Captain Renault survived in the sewers.
Brilliant podcast guys, Bethesda are lucky to have people exploring and examining their undeveloped lore like this. Really engaging with it.
"When I think of who I'm siding with, it's from a roleplay perspective for my character."
I think that's the best way to go honestly.
That’s a lazy way of thinking. Like you don’t have a real thought.
@@louditalian1962 ? you gotta build your characters background and make it make sense, if anything its the opposite of lazy. Compared to, I like red more than blue
@@louditalian1962 its lazier character building to play every character as if they were yourself
Even then, I have a hard time siding with the empire on any of my characters. The empire came this close to executing you for the crime of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think something like that would give even the most patriotic pro-cyrodil Imperial a bit of a crisis of allegiance.
@@cptndunsel2670 damn straight. The Mede Empire are corrupt as hell, perfectly fine with attempted murder, get along with knife eared Nazi's, has Maven a.k.a female Al Capone as an asset and would make that moron Elisif the queen which would make Skyrim into a complete joke
Honestly, what gets me the most is sadly the intro of the game. I know from a strictly baseline perspective, the Imperials are instantly dislikable simply because they try to murder the player - but it's really telling of what they're doing to Skyrim. They don't care about your race or who you actually are. They suspected you of being Stormcloak and thus you're sent to the block. I can only imagine how many innocent people in Skyrim suffered the same fate simply because of circumstance. I don't think it's right that the Empire are going "scorched-earth" on the Nords to solve the issue.
Bruh are you seriously saying that a Legion captain taking some drastic measures because she doesn't want to hold up the execution of Ulfric Stormcloak himself means that they'd behave like that normally?
@@dutchpatriot17 Yeah, because that captain couldn't have taken one minute to say "Hmm. Let's put this one prisoner on the side for a moment" would have held up Ulfric's execution.
@@cptndunsel2670 That's totally irrelevant because, like I said, it's still just the decision of that one captain.
Funny how although fictional all these dilemmas are still present in the real world at this time
People's opinions are greatly influenced by who delivers the news even if otherwise they wouldn't agree of who is the bad or good
I think it'd be interesting if each country in Tamriel became independent I'd prefer that makes for interesting lore or reunification of the Empire a new Septim Emperor like an unknown descendant of Martin but that's too optimistic and unlikely.
That would result in another Interregnum like in Arena or ESO, which is profitable for many people.. War hawks, bandit lords, necromancer cabals, opportunistic warlords.. Not too good for the common man, I do think. But it would be an interesting setting, yes.
@@maestrol6771
The reason why the Interregnum happened is because Cyrodiil collapsed leaving a huge power vacuum in the center of Tamriel. We don't need an empire for peace in Tamriel so long as Cyrodiil remains stable.
@@teyrncousland7152
Well, why Cyrodiil? I mean, yes it's in the center, so that's a huge point, but if Cyrodiil is in a position where "if we fall, all of Tamriel will scramble for power there", then perhaps that's why the Imperials always start, well, an Empire, to protect the heartland as well as keep stability.
Of course, the other Provinces aren't necessarily gonna be starting wars for Cyrodiil, since not all of them are interested in having even larger Provinces, so that's also a good debate.
Hell, Summerset isn't even on the mainland, and when they made a Dominion to keep themselves protected and seperate from human rule, but that didn't stop the humans from invading Summerset and annihilating the Altmer for no reason but "muh conquest".
@@thalmoragent9344
You are correct. A stable Cyrodiil isn't going to keep the peace on Tamriel. In fact the empire's weren't really effective in keeping the peace either. At this point we might just as well let all the provinces be independent and decide their own future, I just don't like it when one of them dominates the others. If chaos is the cost of freedom, so be it.
@@teyrncousland7152 Independence for the provinces of Tamriel, returning everything to just constantly warring states. But if I know the Tamrielic races, they'll always have some reason to hate each other. Slavery, genocide, all sorts of hatred run deep. So, yes, chaos is the greatest cost of freedom. Is that a good thing? I can't really answer that.
Big thing for me to consider is the general feeling of both sides without knowing the larger scope. The gut feeling on a blind playthrough
Michael is slowly achieving Chim by shedding his hair which confines him while the rest continue to live in the dream.
He's going for the Bald Vivec cut 😳
One thing that I always have an issue with is that everyone against the stormcloaks say they discriminate against the argonians and the dark Elves, when that's not exactly true. 200 years ago the Red Mountain erupted. 200 years they have been living in Windhelm. That's generations and generations of Nords. So then invaders come to Skyrim to force their laws and ways of life on the people of skyrim and the Elves in Windhelm don't help the local militia fighting against the invaders. "Skyrim is for the Nords" refers to Skyrim is for it's people and not the Empire. Any race can join the stormcloaks. You being dragonborn when recruited until the very end means that you weren't recruited for your magic powers but because you're willing to fight off the invaders. Argonians and Dark Elves are being separated to keep them from fighting. The dark Elves enslaved the argonians for so long and then recently the argonians started fighting back since morrowind had been weakened. If Ulfric was racist, there wouldn't be any Elves or argonians in windhelm. High Elves own shops in Windhelm. If he was racist, they wouldn't own a shop in his hold, let alone his city. The only two people showing any sort of hostilities toward Elves is the Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored, a brother of someone important but a nobody himself and a homeless veteran (so another nobody). It's the Shatter-Shield's business practices that makes the argonians lives hell, not the Stormcloaks.
Literally almost everything you just stated is unsupported by the lore.
The White Gold Concordat could be rather easily circumvented by putting more of an emphasis on the traditional pantheons. Talos worship outlawed? Okay let’s worship Shor/Shezzar/Sheor, Pelinal, Kyne, etc and stick together for now.
@@23Raind They cannot worship shor bcause he is how nords view Lorkhan, he is the chief evil deity in elven pantheon
The white-gold concordat wasn’t that bad, the Thalmor paid chests of gold for a Talos ban and some territory in Hammerfel that they lose soon after, we know the empire wasn’t strict on the ban so essentially they got to walk away with tons of money and they let all their red guard legionnaires go home to fight the Thalmor and win.
@@sercravenmohead3631
Well, the Empire lost Hammerfell though, so... as well as half of Skyrim in rebellion now.
The Empire is falling apart at the seams, and the Concordat is to blame for multiple Factions
@@thalmoragent9344 Hammerfel is independent but they are in good terms with the Empire, and half of Skyrim is still loyal. Tulius practically won at the beginning of the game but because of Alduin, Ulfric escaped. I still think Tulius will win the war, the loyalist holds are more wealthy.
@@sercravenmohead3631
Skyrim may hold out, but Hammerfell getting half of itself sold out for the sake of Cyrodiil is why some are bitter. The Crowns especially are gonna be pissed, the ones who don't like the Empire/pro Yokudan ones
I wish more people would entertain the idea of the dragonborn making a grab for the ruby throne. The thing that kept the septim dynasty going was the boon of akatosh, from the amulet of kings and the dragonblood. My headcanon has always been the stormcloaks winning, ulfric becoming high king, the emperor being assassinated, and the dovahkiin marching on cyrodiil and claiming the protection of akatosh, and going on to drive the thalmor back
same.
Also im interested if dragonblood causes power hunger for the Dragonborns since miraak & tiber seemed to be quite interested in different kinds of power
@@DubiousFIN it's implied that dragons and by extension dragonborn have a drive to dominate and that can take many forms
YESS!! I also have this head-canon. The Dragonborn rstores The Blades (after putting them in their place of course, Parthurnax remains alive), and he will claim his akatosh given right to the ruby throne. He has the back up of The Blades, the consent of the Greybeards, and Dragon as firepower. Plus Skyrim at his back. The assassination of the Empedor (whether it was the drsginborn himself or someone else would be irrelevant) exposes the weakness of the empire. A weak Emperor, with a weak protection detail. Its time for strength!
No, the Last Dragonborn will vanish as do all other The Elder Scrolls protagonists. If not, then all sorts of tomfoolery will occur.
I think it's safe to say that the DB is one of the most powerful mortals in Mundus, surpassed only by actual divine beings. The Bend Will shout alone is already game-over for anyone who dares to challenge them.
Just all other protagonists before the DB, they will be remembered for the main quest, and that's it.
Sounds like Tiber Septim
My ideal headcanon is that the dragonborn goes on to become emperor, but Bethesda wont make that a thing obviously.
I love how they can compare religious persecution to being told that they can't have xbox that's somebody who's never faced any sort of persecution
I’m sure they haven’t been prosecuted, or at least not to the degree of others, but also that’s a joke so what’s your point?
Yeah, even in real life religious persecution is really serious. Imagine it happening in a world were most gods are actually and verifiably real.
Missed opportunity to draw a parallel with the Spanish Inquisition
I’ve been watching you guys for 5 years and I wanna say that I’m proud to be an elder scrolls reader❤️
You three really pulled out the wisdom for this one. You guys changed my view of this topic
This definitly needs a 2nd part. Great video and haircuts btw.
The hair styles progress from full to none in linear fashion
I like Scott's hair. I wish I could pull of a middle part. 😂
Haha the haircut comment was random but funny lol
I have a feeling that these 3 are gonna end up in ES6 as their favorite race and being those critical view in like a cosmic library with a ton of elder scrolls and historic tomes from like before the first era to current lol
The ideal resolution to the war is if skyrim gains independents but signs a coalition agreement with the empire that promises to provide aid in the war efforts against the Thalmor
I think that it would be easier for the Stormcloaks to rule Skyrim than the Empire because, as you said, Skyrim is pretty split in terms of alliance between the Empire and the Stormcloaks. But the Stormcloaks are far more radical in their beliefs than most Imperial supporters in general. They care a lot more about what they believe in and will go to more extreme extents to ensure their freedom, I would think.
But ironically, SKyrim isn't just for the Nords. There are the Reachmen, the Skaal, and of course the other races that reside in Skyrim, but would be oh so proper-fucked if Ulfric was high king. You could 99.9% expect him to commit at least one genocide, and then inevitably wage war with the Thalmor (who are still aligned with the Empire) and just plunge Skyrim into military and economic collapse. The real question is not who should rule Skyrim, but is making Talos a god worth invoking the wrath of the Thalmor (and other non-nord races) and appeasing the Stormcloaks? If the Nords get Talos, then the HIst, the Khajiti pantheon, the Yokudan pantheon, all of it should be included and then Tamriel would be a land of free worship.
The Stormcloaks are also willing to indiscriminately bombard Whiterun’s inner city, quoted by Balgruuf “They are using fire shot, they aren’t aiming for the walls”. Also, they pillaged neutral village of Karthwasten. Stormcloaks are lawless barbarians, any nord with common sense knows the Thalmor are the true enemy and they know the Empire is going to fight them again. Evidence in Tulius dialogue and Legate Rikke as well as the Thalmor dossiers that prove they support the Stormcloaks so they can weaken the Empire.
Ulfric is our comrade Lenin.
@@definitelynotsigjirI disagree. The tendency is that the empire is gonna collapse, either way. The thalmor are just one little place though, Free Volenfell, Free skyrim, and Cyrodill can obliterate summerset isle. I just accept the empire's decadence, cause since the emperor's sacrifice in oblivion, the empire started to die. Emperor Titus Mede in skyrim just proves that the empire in skyrim is gonna destroy the hole land. Ulfric have a small territory, compared to the empire, but it is a new militia. Ulfric is like Lenin. If the stormcloaks win in the Civil War, the border's path is clean for the empire to pass, but the empire can't send troops, because they have their own borders to protect, that are even closer to Summerset Isles. High rock is the last place that the empire is gonna have hands on. I actually don't like the empire, cause they have a specific bloodline of vampires that don't have the eyeglow, which camouflages them inside the empire's court. Each province needs it's own empire. It can be... more interesting in my opinion.
speaking of evil... Thalmor would literally destroy the world in their desire to transcend it.
Scott is Vivec, Drew is Almalexia, and Michael is Sotha Sil.
@@23Raind Yea and they’re doing podcasts now
Tullius: The Empire's gotta stay together or else we'll all be destroyed by the Thalmor
Ulfric: *Cope*
Based
Ha ha! the 69th like (noice)
Yep alvor at the start of the game said it perfectly.
"People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos. But was it worth tearing Skyrim apart, and maybe destroying the Empire? No, Ulfric will have a lot to answer for in the end. Nords have always supported the Empire, and the Empire has always been good for Skyrim."
"We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."
On Stormcloaks allying with the Dunmer. Doesn't have to be all of the Great Houses. Just Redoran. They're both Warrior cultures and Redoran is the de facto leader of both Solstheim and Morrowind as whole, and their primary power base is the area of Morrowind closest to Skyrim.
And they hate nords
The Dunmer have their own prejudices and racism, including those against the Nords. Though at this point, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." does come to mind and could benefit both against the Thalmor.
@@LadyCoyKoi
Eh, what do Dunmer gain here against the Thalmor? They never warred with the Dominion in the Great War, and are on the opposite side of the Continent.
And if the Towers theory is correct, then Red Mountain is no longer a goal, it's deactivated
@@thalmoragent9344 Hmm, that reasoning seems suspicious! You wouldn't happen to be a Thalmor agent, now would you?
@@mrcopycat2355
Perhaps... I may also know that Morrowind isn't in our primary Goals either 👀
I think that people blame Ulfric for the executions of the townspeople/forsworn/forsworn supporters during the Markarth incident, but the Jarl was likely the one responsible for those executions. I can’t remember if this is stated in game or in some book/note, but I’m hesitant to pin the blame for all of that on Ulfric.
I feel the same. That Jarl is a ruthless and sadistic ruler
Well, there's also the case to make that maybe Ulfric knew as well, but let it happen because he felt a "hard hand" was necessary, so it all depends.
@@thalmoragent9344 If that guilt by association is to be applied to Ulfric then all the Imperials presiding at Helgen for our own execution would be guilty.
@@folkvangr6417
The difference is that Ulfric would've stood by as dozens of innocents died, not one dude who was crossing the border illegally
@@thalmoragent9344 The Forsworn are by no means innocent, as for the townspeople yes they're innocent so long as they weren't helping the Forsworn. However, Nepos the Nose makes it quite clear that it was the Forsworn who were executed by Ulfric.
The supposed murders of the townspeople are blamed on the "Jarl" which was not Ulfric and would have been Hrolfdir or Igmund. Hadvar would be guilty since he stood by and did nothing as we were marched to the block.
As for the Empire they planned on killing an illegal migrant and a horse thief as if they were enemies of the state, hardly worth executing someone for that.
When killing Ulfric at the end of the Civil War questline, Lydia yelled "You call yourself a Nord?!" at Ulfric. Never heard such a low blow in my life!
based lydia
Damn, she ripped apart his soul without using soul tear.
HOW DARE YOU KILL ULFRIC!!! I always side with the Stormcloaks because so many Imperial Sympathizers are corrupt and a few are even at the Thalmor Embassy. The only Imperial Jarl I wish could be spared is: Balgruuf.
@@morrigankasa570 I like Ulfric too, but can we just appreciate Lydia's savagery 💀 here.
@@kingclint2382 Her savagery is fine, though I personally by the time I do the Civil War Questline have Serana as follower and Lydia as a Steward for my Falkreath House.
One cannot deny the awesomeness of Vladimir Kulich (voice of Ulfric Stormcloak) in Skyrim. Whenever I rewatch this scene in the 13th Warrior, I envision Ulfric Stormcloak here in his final battle against the Reachmen. Have a go: ua-cam.com/video/-e9bZD86s3g/v-deo.html&ab_channel=Snugglefoots
And yes, Ulfric is in fact not an enemy of the Empire, when it is true and just. He is fighting for Tiber Septim's name in the spirit of that more ancient and honorable dominion.
I would like you guys to talk about the ESO factions cause I loved each factions campaign and even made a full on argument for each faction and their values to end goals to determine my faction of choice. If you guys want I would be down to write out all the parts for y'all to review during the podcast. I think it's fun to talk about factions cause it helps us get into deeper concepts and I love to see everyone's level of reasoning. Cause it took me a year of playing the game fully and truly picking my fav faction when comparing their pros and cons.
I'm not gonna lie, this hands down was one of my favorite podcasts. Hope it comes back 🤞
An interesting note. When you get into Sovngarde, you will find both Stormcloaks and Imperials Solders and even their Leaders there, that strongly implies that one side isn't less Honorable than the other, at least by Nordic Standards of Honor. Seeing that Ulfric use claims of Nordic Tradition as a rallying cry, there is a lot to think about seeing that the Actual Nordic Gods (Not the 9/8 that was thought up by the Imperials) view both sides more or less the same
I can see three scenarios going forward into TES VI:
a) Each province is independent, Empire crumbles.
b) The Aldmeri Dominion conquers the other provinces, de facto becoming the new empire.
c) Empire consists of Cyrodil, Skyrim and Highrock and is severely weakened.
If the second were true they (thalmor) would already destroy the world.
I choose a)
1:05:11 Yes, I think it's still the same Empire. Just because it doesn't have the same dynasty doesn't mean it isn't the same empire. England have been ruled by many dynasties, have gone through many reformation, and a lot of cultural and technological change but people still considered it as the same England in the medieval times. And i haven't even mention the fact that the only change the Empire has is just territorial and what dynasty rule it; while the culture, law, and technology remain unchanged
I sometimes consider myself the Queen of England - people considering things don't automatically mean they're not wrong.
the loss of the dragon blood emperor harms overall state identity. The worst thing to have been happening is the continuation of the empire and not the start of a republic. But weird thing is that cyrodill had counties with massive autonomy in oblivion, and each area boasts a unique culture sometimes tied closely to the neighboring provinces. The mede dynasty was famously founded by the conquest of cyrodiil, and it would seem like a natural progression for another fu civil war to unfold after the dark brotherhood assassination. The decades of talos ban have eroded the religious plight with youth, but i bet that most agree it is horrible having thalmor walking around. I'd imagine that massive midnight raids in the past have given insurgency movements in the province more legitimacy, (like those once done in afghanistan) and the reason the stormcloaks are able to push back so much is thanks to them. The empire has extremely proficient censors so we wouldn't hear much in skyrim if it meant that it would lead to more rebellion.
@@23Raind oh yeah, i forgot about that
@Sanguine well i'm not counting the Anglo-Saxon anyway
Can you guys do a podcast on Molag Bal? I would love to see his nature explored and solved by you guys. I just got done watching a video on a Skyrim mod called “Vigilant,” and some of the voice lines by Sheogorath helped flesh out the essence of his nature:
Molag Bal. Fire-Stone. An ugly beast of Sithis. One who is burnt by stone, who burns his own soul-never finding respite. A jealous Daedra, who spites creation because he cannot die (return to Sithis) and find requiem.
Idk guys, I've binged this podcast over the last 2-3 weeks and 1 episode a week ain't cutting it anymore lol. Thanks for the amazing content guys, this kind of lore channel is EXACTLY what I was looking for. Super pumped for you 3 to hit 1mil subs sometime in the near future!
Honestly the biggest issue with all of this discussion is it’s very high level, we only get a few perspectives from random individuals and often they are very much an embodiment of a really one-sided mindset.
I’d love to have had the opportunity to know what some of the elves and non-human races think of the whole situation. Often people you speak to are only interested in their own circumstances, dark elves in Windhelm being an exception due to their circumstances being a result of the civil war.
Do imperialised elves care about Tiber Septim or what he did to their homelands or do they just want to live a life like many of the other races.
I want to see the fall of the Cyrodillic empire and the rise of new powers so for me it would be way more interesting to see a Stormcloak victory then ES6 takes place after Ulfric’s death and we hear of a very different Skyrim who has won their independence but then realised they have many ‘foreigners’ who consider themselves citizens of Skyrim so we see a nation that has evolved in an unexpected way with a surprisingly diverse idea of what it means to be a true Son or Daughter of the land.
I imagine some of the Elves would see it as a practicality.
I doubt Altmer or Bosmer would ever worship Talos, a human God, and one who had committed atrocities against their homeland relatively recently, however, any Altmer on Summerset or so may move to Cyrodiil for purely business reasons, as there's no point in letting humans explore and take in all they know of Summerset if they can't explore the other Provinces themselves, and if an Altmer couple has a kid on the mainland, then that kid grows up with some traditional Elven ideals, like Auriel instead of Akatosh, and they're only living in Mundus because of the Human gods... however are less staunch in their supremacy mindset than say, the Thalmor of course.
So I imagine a lot of "Queen Ayrenn" type of Altmer are in Tamriel, so they know their history, acknowledge their origins and all that, but don't harbor hatred/animosity towards humans, and simply travel and live in Tamriel to make a living.
Of course, that's the main way I'd assume many Altmer would approach it, I'm sure some would not like humans but soften up, or just view things the same they always do, but saw better opportunities out of Summerset. Some may not care as much, but I don't see many Mer really worshipping Talos at all, in all honesty. I see him as a purely human worshipped God, but that may just be me.
@@thalmoragent9344 i feel like the altmer are like china or successful north koreans where they project nobility, order and prestige to outside world but then when you find individuals outside the island they criticise the island as a stuffy, rigid society of tyrants ruling the masses and joy of escaping the hellhole that is summerset for freedom in tamriel
@@Angelo-nd4lg
Eh, but then again, that may be more modern Summerset, under the radical Thalmor of this Dominion.
Some other Mer did leave back in the Merethic Era to expand and spread upon Tamriel, like the Direnni and Aylieds to name a couple, so you're right that some may want to leave, but they kept their old ways regardless, so we may both be right in that respect
Well for the beast races they are probably pro-Imperial because of their anti-slavery stance, House Hlaalu I believe is the pro-Imperial dunmer house that likes trading with the Empire. The Orcs are probably happy because the Empire accepts everyone in society it’s a great opportunity for some that don’t want to live in a clan anymore.. ect I just think anyone in Tamriel that is tired of the same dogmatic shit get to live in a more modern and free society.
@@sercravenmohead3631
Eh, the Orcs just wanted their own place, and the Orcs may be accepted as Shock Troopers. The Empire doesn't really accept or respect all orcs, outside of, ya know, the occasional Heavy Imperial Trooper or Smith, but even then, plenty of strongholds existed even during the Empire
As an Irishman I always find myself sympathising with the stormcloaks. Ireland was colonised by Britain for 800 years so a big part of Irish culture is hatred for imperialism. However, although I sympathise and relate more to the stormcloakes,I always side with the imperials because there is ultimately a bigger picture being the Dominion.
Well no its more like 850 years and the Normans. Britain didn't exist. And to treat 1160s 'Britain' as 1 political entity is just ignorant. There were still Norse kingdoms in the British Isles on both Ireland and Britain at the time. Also gotta point out that the Normans we invited as mercenaries by the deposed King of Leinster to help reclaim his throne. And that he proper invasion by the Anglo-Normans was authorised and funded by the Catholic Church.
@@torinjones3221 You are saying that to a person from Ireland, they want nothing to do with us really
Apologies for what my ancestors did to screw you over
Except the Empire is a thalmor puppet state
Skyrim is easily capable of defending itself from the thalmor. Rough mountainous terrarin on 3 sides that would be hellish to march an invading army through, and a stormy, iceberg laden sea to the north. Fortify the mountain passes and shut down the lighthouses along the sea of ghosts, and no amount of thalmor would be able to get through.
Interesting what Michael said about Ulric hating that part of himself in the empire.. makes a lot of sense
I think the reason so many people see the storm cloaks as the “bad guys” (including myself when I first played the game) is that their negative aspects are much more visible in game. You can see their racism played out in the world. With the Imperials it’s mostly the lore and the background narrative that brings their flaws to life. Also, the Thalmor being a separate entity from the Empire, makes it easier to ignore the religious persecution when siding with the Imperials. As a result the imperials seem more “good” on the surface, and the immediate (although flawed) conclusion is that they are the good guys.
They have no choice but to enforce the talos worship. The assessment isn’t flawed. The empire winning and fast with minimal casualties bring the best results
@@momsaid forced or not, that DOESN'T mean it's right that the empire is prohibiting Talos worship. heck, even Alvor, Hadvar's uncle in Riverwood, an empire supporter, says the empire was WRONG to ban Talos worship. that's NOT true, the assessment is INDEED *very* flawed, BOTH, the Stormcloaks AND the Empire have their pros and cons, which is why this is a civil war, and have some fleshed out characters like the main leaders from both sides, Legate Rikke & General Tullius, and Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak & Galmar Stone-Fist. otherwise, if it was so obvious to which side is correct, Bethesda would've never even gave us the option to join the Stormcloaks. a controversial and sad war with former friends/allies fighting each other but BOTH having justifiable reasons why they're fighting each other. but at the end, they both know they must prepare against Thalmor and their rule, it's just that one is also against imperial rule. that's also false, the empire winning wouldn't really change much, there would still be rampant Talos worshipping persecution (whereas the exact OPPOSITE would happen with a Stormcloak victory), and the Stormcloaks or another rebellion similar to them would most likely be back for revenge against the imperials (rightfully so). Tullius himself says something like that at the end of the empire quest line i believe of "i hope we didn't just create a Martyr". the SAME exact thing could be said tho with the Stormcloaks winning quickly and with minimal casualties, plus at least with Skyrim being independent, the entire province wouldn't have to abide by the White Gold Concordant anymore, which is a very GOOD thing 🐻💙💪
There is no cons to choosing the empire. Less imperials and Nords die and once the empire wins they can go back to worshipping talos in secret until they can garner enough power for an imperial victory over the thalmor. If the Stormcloaks win they just never stop fighting and even if they remain independent the people never know peace and so have no chance at real freedom. There’s only one outcome with potential positive long term results
If the Stormcloaks were stronger maybe but they can’t even fight a tiny part of the imperial force
You’re right. I personally find the Imperials in Skyrim (not the ones canon throughout the whole of TES lore, just Skyrim) pretty weak and one dimensional.
@@momsaid Also at least we know that the empire is a conquesting power. Ulfric gives me some Brexit-y vibes that he’s only pushing for independence because he wants to be in control of Skyrim himself
We can talk about how one side winning would be better for ever without getting anywhere. But the narrative in-game clearly says that the Thalmor do not want either side to win and see a victory for Stormcloaks as an equally negative outcome for their goals as an Imperial victory.
As long as some one wins then it is a good thing.
It’s equally bad because it complicates things. Not because the Nords could win. If they can barely beat the empire they aren’t going to beat the thalmor
@@momsaid Yeah, this is what I always bring up. "bUt TeH tHaLmOr DoN't WaNt TeH sToRmClOaKs To WiN!" This does NOT mean it would be equally bad for them. Empire is the clear better choice if you want to stop the Thalmor.
Agree, they’re definitely not the same outcome. It’s like if Scotland kicked off and then went to war with like the Russia or something after they won. Yeh it’s going to be annoying for Russia but it’s going to be a lot less costly than Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India ect. All bowling in at the same time. The analogy could be used with Texas going to war with Russia. It’s not going to be as deadly as a United..err.. United States. It would literally just be like WW2 were Britain was on its own fighting. It held it’s own, yeh but it didn’t get anywhere until all the others joined in.
Yeah duh because if they both don’t win they keep fighting and weaken each other. It doesn’t mean the Stormcloaks winning isn’t a massively better result for them, it means it’s not quite as good as if they keep fighting and spending resources and lives fighting each other and wasting more
I think one of the major things about Jarl Ulfric’s “Liberation” of western Skyrim would set a precedent of succession via civil war.
Assuming ulfric wins, and he dies a few years down the line, what is to stop multiple jarls from claiming the throne, and violently conquering the other holds to place jarls willing to support them in the moot to achieve this?
moral of the story: a great warrior isn't always a good king. if ulfric had've advised torig instead of killing him, skyrim would have had a much stronger position. I think ulfric wanted control and vengeance for the great war; damn the consequences.
@@23Raind that's a failure of information gathering, then, because literally all it takes to get that information is to ask a few of the people who know him. "Not public" is very different from "being kept secret", and anyone who doesn't bother to do basic reconnaissance and information gathering about something this historically important isn't qualified to rule. The LDB, with no skill in speech, has a trivially easy time getting this info. Any half-decent intel agent would have been able to do so, and this was supposedly something Ulfric planned and prepared for.
It's one thing if he knew and just decided that the cultural tradition of solving disputes with combat was more important than seeking a diplomatic solution, which for cultural reasons could be seen as bad PR. But if it's actually the case that he would have been OK with a diplomatic solution and the only reason that didn't happen is because he didn't realize Torygg would have been willing to listen, then that means countless citizens of Skyrim died because he failed to do his homework.
@@23Raind fair enough, I just thought it was an interesting discussion and after all, people (like me) are still actively discovering this video. But there's obviously no need to respond if you don't want to.
@@CatHasOpinions734 why didnt torryg do his homework n tell ulfrik he supports him n also wants out of the empire n free talos worship?
@@Angelo-nd4lg I'm not sure how "homework" is relevant to that suggestion, there's no suggestion that Torygg didn't know any of that, Ulfric was being very loud about it.
As for why he wouldn't say that, Ulfric challenged him publicly and their combat was public, there's no indication that they ever had a chance to speak privately. And saying any of that publicly while in court would have been tantamount to a declaration of war against the Thalmor, which would be incredibly reckless to do without any forethought or planning.
Last time I was this early, Ysgramor still hadn't left Atmora.
I personally got a huge problem with Skyrim in the Role Playing department. I think that more options and outcomes are missing. For example, a post civil war quest against the Thalmor is something that would greatly benefit the game. Or options for you to force a more welcoming, less racist attitude from Ulfric & Company in case you side with them. Or options for you to stop public executions and force some historic repair from the Empire (Angi's family assassinations and her persecution by the empire come to my mind).
The xenophobia of the Stormcloaks and the religious persecution by the Empire is part of what makes the choice of sides more compelling. The point is supposed to be where each side is neither all good or all bad.
I can't believe im just now discivering that you guys have a podcast. I've enjoyed your content for YEARS - excuse me while I lock myself into my Skyrim lair and listen to all your podcasts now
Love you guys
The fact that Torig accepts based on the Sovngard idea backs up his wife's quest of Talos worship. It all contradicts what the Thalmor allow.
People seem to forget about the Nord Empire back in the first/second era. The Nords had absolutely no problem defending themselves or even conquering Elves or other Humans all through history. They were only stopped because of the First Council. A Stormcloak victory could allow the Nords to return to this strength outside of Imperial control.
And then said Empire got Goomba stomped back to Skyrim. The Stormcloaks are utterly pathetic at warfare.
@@dutchpatriot17
They weren't stomped, they declined due to the War Of Succession and the Stormcloaks aren't the ones who signed the WGC, so who's really pathetic here?
A lot of their enemies were divided internally, the Nordic Empire was the first unified kingdom of men. When they fought the Direnni in Highrock the nords actually had support of most of the Bretons. In Morrowind they fought the Chimer and Dwemer but there was a lot of internal rivalries but even still they couldn’t take Vvardenfel, The Dwemer United with the Chimer and eventually drove out the nords. We know the nords helped out the Alessian rebellion against the Ayleids, again they were divided into city states and some of them were actually aiding the races of men.
The first nordic empire was made of atmorans the mystical dudes that slain an entire race of elves. The stormclacks defeated at water crossing by tulius they are such a weak faction that they are dependent on the Dragonborn(player character never take sides on the lore for obvious reasons) or a plot armor to work, the nordic provinces that support the empire are far more powerful than the stormclacks, the stormclacks can not unify skyrim and if the empire was directly involved in the war by just sending one legion ulfric's head would be on a pike.
They are a cursed faction that the only thing they are doing is helping the thalmor by destroying skyrim.
@@rafaelexel93
The Altmorans had already left by the time High King Harald declared Skyrim an independent realm from Altmora and that was long before the Nords started creating their empire under High King Vrage. So learn the lore before you speak.
Bruh Ulfric and his Stormcloaks escaped Tullius plenty of times before Tullius got lucky at Darkwater Crossing and killing Ulfric wouldn't end the war. Instead it would make him a martyr and would rally a lot more Nords under Galmar Stone-Fist.
Both sides need the Dragonborn to win. The imperial holds are being drained of their resources and manpower by the empire, so they aren't doing any better than the Stormcloaks, plus the imperials aren't getting any reinforcements because according Tullius the empire already abandoned Skyrim and they don't care about the outcome of the civil war as they see it as a sideshow before the main event and in that case Skyrim has every right to stand up for itself, especially since it's the Imperials who are destroying Skyrim with their Thalmor masters and the Stormcloaks are saving it from both.
In any case your criticisms on Stormcloak strength are irrelevant because you only judge their efforts during the civil war and you fail to see their potential after they win, in which case not only will they reform but also create new armies and without the empire leeching from it Skyrim will be able to use its own resources and manpower to become the powerhouse it always was in lore. It will certainly be more powerful than the empire eventually because it won't handicapped by the White Gold Concordat which allows Thalmor agents to infest the empire and destroy it from within.
The idea of going "Oh, Elenwin, these dragons sure are a problem, huh? It's such a shame you and your Thalmor guard got SLAUGHTERED by one so close to the summit!" and then just killing all of them is very appealing to me. I don't think Tullius would actually do much more than be slightly irritated with the paper work he would then have to carefully word, and Ulfric would be pleased as punch for this to happen. It'd make for a much better negotiation. It's not like they couldn't just go on with "conflict" to start to slowly funnel more and more Thalmor into a difficult-to-breach-and-difficult-to-escape kill zone where it would be equally as hard to get a proper communication line to to get more realistic details about the "conflict" that is actually there.
"Oh, Durnehviir! Think you could do me a favor...?"
The Thalmor would catch on if more people went missing and they realized the Empire was taking note, nor are the Skyrim based Thalmor responding much at all, and the infiltration of the Embassy would also be big news to the Dominion.
They could stop sending Thalmor there all together, but then you have less chance to spy on then or reas Dossiers on "Assets"
@@thalmoragent9344
That assumes there's an accurate reporting system, of which the Thalmor would not have reason to question up to that point. If over all the the conflict appears to be equally ramped up across the board, it would still look like a minimal presence. Either they keep sending their people in based on ratios lost vs. the enemy losses, they ramp it up to try to enforce it with a more hands-on approach, or they send fewer people in to try to enforce a ban. All of those things are a plus to this kind of misinformation campaign.
If the Empire and Stormcloaks are still going with the "business as usual" war and the empire APPEARS to be putting honest effort into enforcement and APPEARS to be taking great losses, there's no precedent for proclaiming Great War 2.0 because it still APPEARS to be following the script. The crux of the conflict for the Empire/Stormcloak conflict is a ban on Talos worship, the crux of the Thalmor actually being present is to fan the flames. That's an important distinction of conflict that can be manipulated to make a bigger headache for the Thalmor resource-wise. It'd take a great deal or work to set up and run with, and it would be a risk, but it can be done. Failure of this plan only means the war is on again properly, which is an inevitability regardless, and the Empire isn't out Stormcloak backing anymore.
@@YourWaywardDestiny
Yeah, but either way, they wouldn't be signing anything together since Talos Worship would still be banned, and overall, the Empire and Stormcloaks would still be at odds and fighting. Once Alduin is done for, then the war would be "business as usual", so your plan only works during the Dragonborn's request of a halt in the war, and once the Dragon War is over, then you'd see the 2 sides fighting all the same. Your plan sounds interesting and could work if applied very carefully, but even then, time is a big factor, and many Stormcloaks and Legionarries aren't gonna be too happy about suddenly being "buddy buddy" given they were just killing each other the day before and Talos Worship is still banned.
@@thalmoragent9344 I think you're thinking way more bureaucratically than I initially was. It's more like a Gentleman's agreement after a nice looong summit of talk for the higher ups to start casually deciding that maybe shifting troop movement around and rewording some key propaganda and possibly accidentally-on-purpose revamping their record keeping at an *inopportune* moment miiiight have some attractive up sides. I don't think Tullius would get clearance for anything so drastic as an actual permanent agreement in the first place, so it'd all have to be an under-the-table deal, and he wouldn't want to risk sending information like that to Cryodiil. And Ulfric, for as much as he's a bit slimy, is a Nord with honor who would at least like to project he's better than a piece of paper with a name on it.
There's still actual conflict involved at least initially, just slowly turning the tides of who is wasting what and where. The only time they'd really be signing anything is if it started to go too far south and the second great war was officially declared. As much as the Stormcloaks dislike the Empire giving into the Aldmeri Dominion, I'm guessing they'd still sign on (albeit with a boatload more more legal fine print) to go to war with the Altmer. Nords just be like that with elves.
One thing about the Civil War - that I don't think was brought up but I haven't finished the video yet - is that I usually prefer the Imperial aligned Jarls vastly to the Stormcloak aligned ones. Balgruuf stands out in that regard, and Vignar Gray-Mane is likeable but doesn't seem to be the best ruler lmao when it comes to Whiterun.
I almost always choose Imperials as well, but it comes at the cost of Maven Black-Briar becoming Jarl of Riften.
@@garpogods8323 Honestly? I'd rather have Maven using political influence to make herself more powerful than an actually incompetent Layla Law-Giver just listening to sweet whispers from her wholly corrupt entourage and taking everything at face value. At least Maven will know the true going ons of the city, and anything that is an actual threat to citizens is probably going to be a threat to her mead empire as well.
@@deadseven3474 Honestly agreed, I hate Maven but her becoming Jarl just tells everyone who is actually in charge. Layla is infuriating as a Jarl, at least with Maven in charge there's the hope that she loses some influence as a consequence.
@@deadseven3474 personally just always had the impression her connections to the Guild and Brotherhood may eventually be setting up "accidents" for the next High King and thier rule.
@@deadseven3474 Incompenent leader is better than a compenent a**hole. Besides, in my playtrough Maven ordered the death of my family to the DB and at the start of the game they were going after me...thus I was trying to cross the border to escape. My character hates her. And unless you role-play, you're not really playing the game.
I am 2 years late with this theory, because I am listening to all of the episodes of the podcast again for the fifth time. Nonetheless, as evidenced by the initial concept which Michael reads at 24:35 and some of the assessments made by Scott earlier in the episode, there was initially meant to be a strong Asian influence, specifically Chinese, for the Imperials in The Elder Scrolls. My personal theory is that the Nibenese, given the obvious Asian name, would have had this heavy influence from China, whereas the Colovians would maintain more of a Byzantine and Roman influence and culture. The Nibenese would have likely inhabited the portion of Cyrodiil which is covered in jungle, closer to Valenwood and Elsweyr, and the Colovians would have inhabited the grasslands which we are familiar with from TES V: Oblivion. Of course, when the idea of a jungle Cyrodiil was ditched and explained away with Tiber Septim transforming the province, this was probably a reason for the Nibenese becoming simply Colovians and losing their unique culture. However, I think the main reason for this decision to make all of the Imperials simply Romans (Colovians) was because of Akavir and the fact that all of the Chinese influence had already (or perhaps it had been decided around the time the game was being made) been given to the Akaviri. They did not want the Imperials to have the same cultural influence as the Akaviri, and so decided to do away with this concept for the Nibenese and Cyrodiil as a whole. As we see with the Blades in The Elder Scrolls V: Oblivion, this Asian/Chinese influence which had been the concept for the Imperials had instead been transported to them by another race (the Akaviri/Tsaeci), and I would argue that the use of the katana and the armour motif of the Blades was originally meant to be the Imperial armour and weapons of the Nibenese and have nothing to do with the Tsaeci.
Alright bois so I've just absolutely binged watched ALL your podcasts in three weeks. The only thing that sucks about it is that I now have to wait a week between episodes. Keep up the great work, love y'all!
Drew's mustache looking cool af.
I feel like the storm cloak ending will be canon because it makes for a much more interesting political scene come ES6. The second Great War is coming 🔥
I doubt their going to confirm either ending of the questline as canon. That just isn't how Bethesda has been doing things with TES.
@@smithingbear7522 True they’ll more than likely go with season unending as the cannon. I just hope not bc then it kinda takes away from the endings we experienced as players IMO
@@maxgoss5653 I'm thinking they'll say something happened but they won't describe what happened so that any ending to those quests could feasibly happen.
@@smithingbear7522 I’m betting it’s season unending, the LDB is the ultimate anti dominion hero that thwarts the thalmors plans.
If they actually confirm an ending it would probably be the one that would have happened without the Player Character there. So imperial if it happens.
Running devils advocate for the murder of Toryg, it's easy to look back in hindsight as the player & see that Toryg was a big fan of Ulfric & probably would have given him what he wants; but Ulfric didn't know that. From Ulfric's perspective he's been betrayed by the empire, the people of Skyrim are being oppressed and there's a weak boy sat on the throne.
Also Ulfric would need to share more power and discuss things with someone he probably saw as a tainted nord. Another thing, the need for a conflict presses the envelope on radicalization. Ulfric is a cult of personality.
What if a nord dragonborn joined the storm cloaks gained fame fighting, monsters, thalmor and imperials. Somewhere along the way Ulfric dies in battle the dragon born becomes the new storm cloak leader. The dragon born starts to garner support to become high king and starts advancing into western skyrim. Meanwhile the dark brotherhood assassinate the emperor and kill the elder counsel member who hired them. The chaos allows the dragon born to push the advantage across skyrim assault the Thalmor embassy and take Haafingar hold. A moot is then held if the player has kissed enough Jarl ass they become high king.
Alternatively if the dragonborn joined the legion a similar thing could happen except you can garner favor with imperial generals. You gain fame as dragonborn and the empire starts taking land in Eastern Skyrim. Delphine discovers your identity as dragonborn and seeks you out. You start covertly hunting down thalmor and their supporters. You use the Thalmor dossier on Ulfric to discredit him and the storm cloaks start losing support. After the assassination of Titis Meade Ulfric decides to challenge the dragonborn I'd imagine him saying I'll match my thu'um against yours or something. The dragonborn then defeats Ulfric in nord combat reforms the blades and makes a bid to become emperor.
@ABCDEFG yes but the basis of the entire civil war is that the Empire interpreted it as murder. Also Ulfric knew full well that it wasn't a fair challenge, Toryg didn't stand a chance against him & Ulfric knew that full well.
17:21 This sounds like Ulfric’s big speech to Galmar when you first enter the Palace of the Kings. “I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”
I see a lot of similarities between Skyrim civil war and Pellopennesian/Ancient Greek civil war (431 - 405 BCE) between Spartan aka Stormcloak and Athen aka The Empire. Both happened after a great war against foreign invasion (Aldmeri Diminion / Persian Empire). Both use the classic Red vs Blue to represent each side (though in Skyrim, the colors are switched). And both civil wars was sponsored by the invaders behind the screen. If Bethesda really use Pellopennesian war as reference, then we know who won this war, spoiler alert its Spartan aka Stormcloak.
Interesting!
25:36 thanks for elaborate this.
I see far too much of people being "hUUrr durrr Ulfric is Thalmor agent cuz he's their asset" whenever this came out
SAME.
Sometimes I wonder if people who believe that Ulfric is a SeCrEt AgEnT had read the entire dossier... or if they are just stupid. There are plenty of reasons to criticise Ulfric, why stick to some conspiracy theories?
Not an agent, just a puppet dancing on strings unseen
Except for the fact that Ulfric's status as asset predates the civil war. As a matter of fact, at present he's listed as both an uncooperative and dormant asset.
Ulfric's status as asset comes from the Great War. The entire Market Incident is where he proved his value to the Thalmor. Man literally had direct contact with the Thalmor up until his arrest at Markarth.
@Sanguine Nope. The torture was during the Great War. Ulfric established direct contact after the Great War, and remained cooperative to said contact until his arrest at Markarth.
The whole Markarth Incident is a direct result of Ulfric's collaboration with the Thalmor.
Michael: “Perhaps a new emperor. Perhaps a better one”
Me: “perhaps the first galactic empire?” 🤣😂
Elisif: The Moot will decide your fate
Ulisif: I AM THE MOOT!
@@mrcopycat2355 🤣😂. I can’t. That’s hilarious. Love it.
I feel like a podcast episode between 3 lore masters debating who the strongest TES protagonist is would be amazing to listen to.
Regardless of that keep up the great work guys, your content is awesome.
CHRIST IS KING
Umm, nerevarine. For sure.
@@theone2762 Idk about “for sure”. The HoK is a Daedric Prince and TLD can pause time with his voice alone. None of these individuals are pushovers in the slightest.
CHRIST IS KING
@@basedautist3761 yeah I kinda forget about HoK becoming Sheogorath, that could be helpful. But, well that means that HoK kinda is capable of no one know what, and so I'm not sure if stopping time can help you in fighting with someone who can change you into a sweetroll at will.
@@theone2762 HoK mantling Sheogorath is huge, but Nerevarine defeated multiple demi-gods and TLB defeated the World Eater and prevented the next Kalpa from initiating.
The one thing I will say is that TLB being able to stop time with his voice is absurdly powerful. You can have all the amazing spells and potential buffs allotted to the other combattants but if time stops the moment the fight begins and TLB hits you before you can activate them, you’ll probably die.
I’m not sure if that matters against HoK considering he effectively became a Daedric Prince. It really depends on how Alduin scales to the Daedric Princes.
Edit: Although it is only in game, the Slow Time shout affects everything in the world around you. This includes the many Daedric entities you encounter in Skyrim. I’m not sure if that should be considered a gameplay concession or not, but based on the lore behind the Thu’um I don’t think it’s crazy to say a strong enough user could affect Daedric Princes with it.
@@basedautist3761 the problem with Alduin is that he's technically a god and he should be able to stop time and kinda use any other shout as well and only reason he doesn't is that so we as a player had a chance facing him.
Talos is love, Talos is life
Talos is TAAMMRIIEEEEELLLL
Everything is Lorkhan's fault. Whether you consider "everything" to be generally a good or a bad thing is a matter of perspective.
Damn it, Lorkhan…
Blessed Shor guide my blade so it may rest in the head of elves
@FudgeMuppet, I have two questions
1. Is there any way for a mortal to permanently kill a Daedric Prince? (Lore wise)
2. Can the Daedric Princes know fear?
1. No, no daedra can be really killed, their essence just get sent to waters of obliviin and then they are getting reborn.
2. Yes. Read "spirit of daedra", I guess it was the book. It says something like: " Scamps don't think much and feel much fear, vermai don't think at all and don't feel any fear and dremora think deeply and feel deep fear" I guess daedra Lords think even deeper than dremora so guess yourself what comes from it.
1. I believe, one can kill a Deadric prince by slaying their avatar in their realm, and then destroying or claiming their realm as well, as that is an aspect of them.
2. Yes
I don't know too much about it, but i think mortals (with the help of Meridia) kill an Avatar of Molag Bal in ESO, and there is some talk about how this makes him dangerously vulnerable.
and then with Jygallag and the Hero of Kvatch, you free Jygallag by claiming his realm that bears the curse of Seogorath.
so if one were to destroy the Avatar, and then claim or destroy the realm where they will be reborn, one would in essence destroy the Deadric Prince. in the act of claiming however, some... undesired. traits would certainly rub off, leading the claimer to most likely assume the role of the slain prince in a process similar to mantling.
I wouldn't say stormcloaks as a whole are xenophobic, even ulfric himself asks bretons of high rock to help but their don't reply, I think with nords you have to earn their respect they dont just give it. once you have earned their respect they will leave you alone this is even implied by niranye a high elf.
Exactly as a redguard traveling tamriel the stormcloaks accept my plea of service with no issues but a little test but those imperials just want to take my head
I remember that in the Jagged Crown quest Ralof says that he had heard some bad things about Ulfric and had been quite disappointed but still wouldn't quit the Stormcloaks. As being the Thalmor asset is probably well guarded secret, I think that he was talking about the racism towards other races. Remember that no matter your race, you are always considered a friend by Ralof. While Ulfric and most of the Nords in Windhelm may be xenophobic, I think it can't be applied to ALL of the Stormcloaks. Most of them are probably people feeling betrayed by the Empire, hoping that as an intependent kingdom Skyrim would be much better place to live. That's why I think most people judging the Stormcloaks are pretty unfair. Right, Ulfric is an asshole when it comes to how he acts or how he treats non-human races. But the Stormcloaks as an army are full of brave men who wish to liberate their people from Thalmor's oppression. Even Tullius and Rikke understand and respect that, although obviously they stay loyal to the Empire and fight the rebels.
Yeah these guys throw around “Xenophobic” “their racist” but they ignore the details and context.
@@ezraefraimbies9770 also ulfic is most likely unaware of being a thalmor asset like let's be honest he would hate to be used as a thalmor asset and if he knew he would like do something about it
@@danielshore1457 I side with the Empire and I also think that he would and should be pretty pissed about learning to be a Thalmor asset, but honestly, the fact that Ulfric lets the High Elf merchant hang out in the city but makes the Dunmer sit in the slums, the Argonians stay out in the East Empire Bunkhouses because they're not liked by the Nords of the city, and Khajiit are completely banned from the city just like the rest of Skyrim is kinda weird. Why is there no extreme racism towards the High Elves according to the merchant, who lead the Aldmeri Dominion and the Thalmor? It's always sat weird with me idk why, maybe it literally is that they look more like humans than the other races I listed
I'm a Skyrim baby and initially joined Ulfric and his rebellion. It was then I realized something was wrong with my decision. Thus delving into the TESLore commenced. A United Empire is the best route to go in the big picture.
I thought the war as a backdrop was interesting from the beginning, but it's amazing how it just improved with age. It's so incredibly nuanced, no answer is the right one, except that one side must win over the other. Personally I've shifted from Empire to Stormcloaks over the years, but I don't begrudge anyone for staying Empire.
This is probably one of my most favorite episodes of the podcast
Skyrim could defend against the empire, they have a godlike Dragonborn
Assuming the Dragonborn wouldn't disappear like the other Elder Scrolls PCs
@Sanguine Gameplay limitations are the reason for that. For example, most of the cities you see are supposed to be much bigger than you see in gameplay. They did better with that in ESO but I think it's easier in a MMO than a RPG. Even the civil war in the game was supposed to be much bigger because you can see a lot of it on cut content. It's very hard to depict everything perfectly without causing a nuclear explosion on PCs and consoles. I am Obi Juan Quenobi, leading skooma dealer in Tamriel, and thank you for attending my TED talk.
@Sanguine Tbh the LDB would give the tribunal a run for there money, the thu’um is one of the most busted abilities in the ES universe. Keep in mind LDB knows Bend Will and dragonrend. He or she absorbed Miraak’s soul which in tail means he absorbed all of miraaks knowledge on the thu’um and his powers/abilities on the thu’um as well. With all that said where looking at an individual who can challenge lesser to normal like gods and can take over entire armies by making them his or her own.
That’s if the Dragonborn helps them and not the Empire.
@@sercravenmohead3631the dragonborn wouldn't help the empire or the imperials and that's just facts
I kinda lean into the Stormcloak side for the solid reason that both in Elder Scrolls lore and in real life history, Empires after they reach a specific point only crumble and fall. The Septim Empire will never be the same Empire that it once was, you can think it like the Empire it is based on, the Roman Empire. It will keep crumbling and crumbling. So I think that it is better to jump ship than drown with it.
But saying this I have a conspiracy theory that I haven't seen anyone really discuss, what if Aldmari Dominion pretended to lose Hammerfell. Like what if they decided that "Instead of committing 100% and waste years trying to conquer them, why don't we let them have their brief independence and that way we can have people thinking they stop us solo and rebel against their Empire."
Bethesda did a fairly good job at making both factions equally unlikable. That being said, I typically side with the Stormclocks because I like their rebellious nature and dislike authority. Not to mention, the empire is crumbling and only but a shell of what it used to be.
The empire died with Martin
Stormcloaks are just another authority though.
Id definitely say both are unlikable, but the stormcloaks are openly racist so i always side with the empire.
You hit it perfectly, Bethesda made them both equally unlikeable! You literally have to choose between a group with open racists in it vs a group that is enabling the genocide of a religious group!
Bruh they're *HUGE* racists, that's why I always exterminate them.
Anytime i try to wrap my head around what the "right" side to pick would be, i just ask myself what the Thalmor would hate more.
I miss these podcasts, bring them back!
It's hard not to sympathize with the storm cloaks but the idea that they could hold off the Thalmor alone when the empire couldn't do it united is also hard to believe.
guerrilla armies often beat larger more advanced armies by attrition and morale.
You also have to consider that if the Dragonborn we’re to side with the storm cloaks the Thalmor would not stand a chance. Also along with the terrain of Skyrim that’s probably part of the reason the Thalmor lost Hammerfell.
@@FazeParticles Stormcloaks arent really guerrilla fighter, now are they? Way more for open combat as that is honerable and leads to Valhal... I mean Sovengarde.
If the Stormcloaks are able to do hit and run operations, not get caught in drawn out fights and just be enough of a pain to hold out, they got a decent chance since if they hide their allegiance, you wouldn't be able to tell.
Doe that goes out the Window if the Thamlor just goes in with it full magical front but that seems unlikely unless they really need something
@@Littleeqb the dragoborn is most likely going to be a non factor. Can't really have new story's with characters that strong around, it's partly why the neverine wasn't in Morrowind during the oblivion crisis
Redguards: "The White-Gold Concordant is injust and our provinces can survive on our own with ease."
Nords: "Agree. Elves must not dictates the fate of Men."
Empire: REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
RACIST NORDS /s
The difference is that the Redguards didn't wage war with the Empire, they kept fighting and seceded from the Empire, renounced by Titus Mede the second himself.
@@sleepykhajiit1875
Yeah, so why doesn't Ulfric "take our want to the Dominion" instead of fighting the Empire? They could've done what Hammerfell did, but just stead fought the Empire.
The Empire didn't invade Skyrim, if I recall correctly, Skyrim joined this Empire willingly under Tiber Septim, and they were in the Empire when the Great War started. The Empire didn't do any invading. The Stormcloaks are rebelling against the Empire, not defending it from invaders, considering many of them were actually in the Legions as well... so 🤷🏿
As while they agree that elves aren't that good, they would very much disagree about Shor (AKA, Lorkhan). The comparison to Shor for the Redguards is Sep. Redguards don't like Sep.
@@sleepykhajiit1875 Hammerfell didn't rebel, just refused to accept the Concordat.
The Empire isn't invading Skyrim, it's self defense.
It is interesting to see how often people - myself included, no doubt, I"m not immune to this - project their current situations and ideals onto what they see in the situation in TESV. For example, making decisions about the Civil War, choosing a side based on the perceived evils of racism being exerted by the Stormcloaks. It's a different world, where different races treat each other differently; it's not modern, industrialized Western cultures where everyone has air conditioning, access to the internet, and modern dentistry, after all. Passing judgement on characters for behaving in ways that are incongruent with how you were raised because they lived in an entirely different culture is rampant, and admittedly difficult to avoid.
I would like to bring up a tactical fumble made by ulfric and tulius. The use of magic in their ranks are highly limited. Even bandit camps will usually have at least one mage in their midst, and that mage can be a huge pain to deal with.
I’d say both are equal. The 3 things I love about the imperials are Jarl Balgruuf, Hadvar, and the Whiterun guards, and the 2 things I love about the stormcloaks are not being friends with the thalmor and being blue instead of red.
You three should try to bring on Young Scrolls for a podcast.
The marshy hot springs to the south of Windhelm would be a great place to plant a Hist tree. The way the Stormcloaks are portrayed in game is a huge missed opportunity. The Nords' desire to name their own kings and to worship their old gods could be a compelling reason for the Civil War. But it would be very interesting if in order to fight the war that Ulfric, being a shrewd diplomat, had to ally with the Argonians and the Dunmer and put aside old prejudice. He promises the Argonians the lightly inhabited marsh lands of Morthal and conquers Solstheim on behalf of the Dunmer. The ultimate irony of Ulfric could be that in order to escape the control of the Empire and restore the old Nord way of life he needs to become like them and gift land and political semiautonomy to lizard men and Daedra worshippers.
that's a tasty idea, story-wise
There are big ol fuck off statues of Azura and Boethia to the north and south of Windhelm respectively. I don't think Daedra worship would actually be that big of a problem for him. He lets Dunmer in but not Argonians cause slavery. Dosent let Kats in cause dominion owns them. Separates Nords and Dunmer cause slavery and the false Tribunal made Shor perma dead.
@@malice9720 Owns them through lies.
Defending the empire after they try to kill you for no reason is just the dumbest thing you can do
You're the kind of guy who'd join ISIS because one US captain made a bad call.
@@dutchpatriot17 And you are the kind of guy who would blow a cop to show what a good little subject you are
@@Kirasupporter1Got anything other than ad hominems? Course not.
@@dutchpatriot17Such is the battle of winning hearts and minds. The Imperials also committed executions without a trial. Also didn't help that Gen Tullias was seen speaking with the Thalmor upon arriving to Helgen. In a hypothetical scenario, it'd be pretty dumb siding with the Imperials.
@@swamp1138 The Thalmor were literally at Helgen to try and save Ulfric's ass, lol.
What about the third option: the Aldmeri Dominion? Yes. :)
Late to the party, but it's an interesting topic so I'll add my two septims.
On religion and Imperialisation: Tiber Septim is (allegedly) of Nord descent, and became the Ninth Divine in the Imperial pantheon as Talos (though he should've been called Ysmir in Skyrim) I think of him both facilitating the imperialisation and the distinguishness (you know what I mean) of Skyrim and the nords: as Talos he is the face of the Empire and what it has accomplished, and also Ysmir he is the Dragonborn God Talos, the Dragonborn Conquering Son, the first new god of this cycle ("_the end of a cycle is said to be preceded by the Dragonborn God, a god that did not exist in the previous cycle but whose presence means that the current one is almost over"_ - excerpt from Skyrim design documents). He exists appropriately in both cultures.
However, I do also believe the imperialisation is a detriment to the Nord people because the Nine Divines pantheon is one where Elf and Man are joined, and important aspects of gods are lost to placate the other side.
What Ulfric means with "the old ways" I have no idea, since he is so hung up on Talos that I suspect he doesn't even heed the others.
From a political point of view though, or a long term at least, then the Empire is the favourite simply because it would breed trade and peace... although, that may be for naught, since the End is near and the next cycle is soon about to begin.
I always took it that like the empire has been in control of skyrim so much that the nords have forgotten the worship of their old gods etc.
Now I think when Ulfric says return to old ways he means that. I do hate how like people only see stormvloaks as racist when like from actual stormvloaks we don't see that much racism, we see nords being racist but that doesn't mean stormvloaks are racist. And I would say that Ulfric has a very justifiable reason to hate elves
Talos is the Shezzarine Hjalty Earlybeard and was no Nord. In this shezzarine He become Emperor. And Hjalti earylbeard was Born in Alcair, so probably breton or half Breton. His father have also a Nord Name, but wie dort now his mother.
@@granockss9548 it's almost like I wrote "allegedly" somewhere...
Freedom is never free
Long live the Stormcloaks, may the cause never die till Skyrim is free.
I have a suggestion for you -
Start a new playthrough with an Alternative start mod.
Playthrough the various guilds without having dragon shouts. The difference its made to my playthrough is immense.
You can play the majority of Dawnguard DLC, but Whirlwind Sprint is required later.
It really helps you feel like you're "normal" character in the game, and not some demigod. Also, characters such as Mercer Frey's skepticism feel much more justified.
Well, you use shouts anywhere outside of combat? I mean, play factions without Thu'um is like normal playing for me, I rarely use the voice anywhere in unmodded game. Like when you don't have enemies with a ton of health and armor and stuff you only use fus to dah to throw some bandit from the top of the mountain/tower/whatever.
@@theone2762 People don't start referring to the Dragon Born until you've killed the first dragon at the tower.
Faction leaders are skeptical of you until later in their respective questlines. They see you as a normie that "has potential" instead of a demi god having potential.
The difference to immersion is infinitely better.
@@davelangton1217 well, maybe you're right, I've never payed much attention to how they see me in the game
ALL HAIL TALOS AND THE STORMCLOAKS!!!
Personally, I believe any ruling power that allows a foreign power to round up and torture its citizens for religious reasons (or does that itself) has lost the right to govern. And if you say the Nords could just pray to Talos in secret, ask yourself if this is something you truly believe to be acceptable.
It's better than losing thousands more conscripts in a hopeless war
Acceptable? No absolutely not but this is the elder scrolls and you're going to be sacrificing some morality regardless of who you choose, hell even Tiber septum himself was a huge warmongering asshole. I just think the empire has a slightly better chance of surviving the thalmor, but honestly Skyrim seems fucked either way
@@23Raind get them out skyrim for skyrim cyrodiil for cyrodiil no more empire
@@23Raind you'd be sacrificing a lot either way. I didn't say anything about the racism because it's going to exist either way and doesn't factor into my decision and the evil politician thing goes both ways.
Also the land was already ruled by people who thought they want what's best for Skyrim and boiling down the empire to people just trying to line their own pockets is dumb because the Nords fighting for the empire do care about Skyrim.
And while I do agree that Talos us worshiped by many he obviously means more to the Nords and many only worshiped him because he became Talos after conquering many lands and killing a shit ton of people in his way. And I agree that the thalmor are a threat to everybody, but without the empire all Skyrim has to defend itself is a faction of rebels led by the guy it only took Tulius a couple months to defeat. I'm all for a free Skyrim but I don't trust the stormcloaks to defend it against the dominion and as dying and fucked as I think the empire is I think they have the best chance at survival. That's not to say the stormcloaks don't have a chance tho I'm not really that against them as much as I just think the empire has a slightly better chance.
@@Extradecentskeleton I feel like people underestimate the stormvloaks like if we were to go by actual lore stated then they could put up a pretty good fight against the thalmor as the only invasion the aldmeri dominion could have is by sea which if we follow lore than the only expert navigators of the sea of ghosts? Nord raiders
That's the biggest issue I have with the civil war Questline, ever since I learned a bit more about the Lore of the Elder Scrolls.
Since I discovered the dosier the Thalmor had on Ulfric in their embassy, I always wanted to go to Ulfric and show this dosier to him, show him, how he unintensionally plays the Thalmor right in the hands, and maybe persuade him to secretly take up diplomacy with Tullius, to at least get them to agree on a ceasefire, but preferably convince both, that it'd be more beneficial to secretly plot against the Thalmor.