@@TonySopranoXXXXX Challenge accepted.😁 If Waid's _dogshit_ Daredevil run can be yeeted out of existence, PINO can be Stark-snapped even faster than that.
It’s like Batman’s parents coming back to life and revealing that Bruce was an obsessive compulsive since he was a toddler and they actually were planning to send him away but they got killed. NOT that I’m pitching such a horrible concept but that’s essentially what they did to THE PUNISHER.
@@EvandroACruz no one is saying that she should be ok with what he does. She shouldn’t be alive to begin with. She comes back as a modern, toxic bitch… yeah what a great story.
Huge Punisher fan. I stopped reading this run after issue #1 and the origin change. I actually really enjoyed the Matthew Rosenberg run that preceded where Punisher gets an Iron Man suit and acts exactly like the Punisher would given that opportunity. I loved the old school Garth Ennis, Mike Barron and Chuck Dixon Punishers and have a real soft spot for Greg Rucka's Rachel Cole-Ives Punisher stories. Anyone missing the real Punisher has plenty of great stories to chose from. This is one of the great and most popular Marvel characters of all time and those stories will always be in print or on digital. I'm also a man in my 50s proud to continue to wear a Punisher T-shirt. You guys are right. Nothing has changed except for Marvel not getting my money for new Punisher comics.
I have a question. I learned that in the ‘90s (or maybe very early ‘00s), there was an event called Double Edge. The theme was Frank, due to an enemy interfering with his memories, mistakenly thought Nick Fury had killed his family. He set out to kill Fury and seemingly did (except it turned out he hadn’t because reasons). My question was did Frank ever learn Nick hadn’t killed his family? I just wondered if that were ever resolved or if they just said, “Eh, who cares? On to the next big thing!”
Thank you for the defense of the Punisher character. I’ve seen all 3 of your Punisher videos. Good as well but one thing you could have commented on is one of the other reasons for his existence. He came to life at a time when our streets were filled with crime. Not too unlike today. Charles Bronson probably became a household name from the Deathwish movies playing a character not unlike Frank Castle. In real life we had Bernie Goetz, who many saw as a vigilante. We had the Mafia in NY. Punisher came to life in this environment. He killed bad guys. I believe in incarceration, not murder. But Punisher was fiction. Maybe revenge fantasy. I’m glad I still have my old Punisher books to go back to.
I think we have all read a news story where an obviously guilty criminal gets away with it or gets a light punishment. Describing Frank as a revenge fantasy is accurate. He can do what the Marvel Superheroes won't and what we can't.
Easily one of the most malicious things done in comics. This was specifically done to attack fans of the character. It was never about wanting to make a good or interesting story. This is Tom King levels of character assassination, and fan hate.
Absolutely correct. This was an attack on the character and the character's fans. It not only ruined Frank, it ruined his wife Maria as well. She was a kind, loving wife. Now she's a mean spirited, cruel woman. This story ruins the Punisher characters the way the Disney Star Wars movies ruin the Star Wars characters.
It's the fault of Marvel. Aaron didn't destroy Conan because the Conan people wouldn't let it happen. The Punisher didn't have such an advocate to shield him, though.
"Even Wolverine thinks the Punisher is bad!" Yes, the same Wolverine who split from the X-Men during Schism because he thought Scott was going to far with the formation of the new X-Force. Then he went on to form his own X-Force. While teaching kids at his own school not to kill but still continuing to himself because he's a huge hypocrite. Then he cries about it when Daken is brought back to life by Apocalypse. Also the fact that Logan has been alive for centuries longer than Frank means his body count is way higher since he's the best at what he does. Let's say Logan's killed 10 people a month for 150 years. That's at least 18,000 people. Wolverine is a bigger monster.
10 a month, tha...is to low, for wolverine, thats a slow day dealing with yakuza. Honestly most heroes have blood on their hands and have done much much worse than Frank,
@@ScienceJesus I wish they would separate it all into different universes so that was you can have the soy "Aaronverse" and a classic Marvel Universe. Then they can just wash their hands of all this.
So Frank’s wife was going to tell him that she wanted a divorce in front of their kids on a picnic. Most people that wear the Punisher logo, or Superman and Batman don’t read comics.
What pisses me off is that I never asked for this. I love the Punisher and have ready many good books over the years, but yet here we are...dissing the fans again. Marvel is shameful...
To repeat what I commented on Drunk 3PO's video on this topic... here goes. Rest in peace, Frank Castle. The Punisher, in my eyes, will never be what MARVEL turned him into. He'll always represent what it means to lose everything and to try to fight for what's right even if it means losing yourself in an eternal struggle against those that commit evil. His character, his symbol will forever help me through the broken road ahead... that, sometimes, it is the imperfect and, at times, the visceral nature of reality that the world needs to see and understand. A damaged soul in a heartless world filled to the brim with monsters. Instead of giving up, he pushed through... whatever means necessary. If that's not relatable, I don't know what is.
This! Right here! Sir you put into word exactly how I feel as well. Good to know I’m not alone!! Sometimes the only way thru something is going thru it. Just keep going.
If the punisher is so controversial then why is the John Wick franchise so popular? One could argue that the punisher and John Wick or essentially the same character when you think about it. The only difference between them is one is avenging the death of a puppy and they are the other is avenging the death of a family complete with a wife and kids.
The way to fix it is that it wasn't really his wife, but a Hand member masquerading as her, or a demon working for The Demon, and he returns to kill the hand for what they did.
That will of course probably happen at some point. But it’s the fact that they let it happen in the first hand and at the same time giving us this awful background on Frank that was never there before.
@@PapaMartyo4331 oh, I understand, they f**ked up here, but I'm giving them a way out. As for messing with his past, it's memory manipulation, never happened, like Jean grey brainwashing Bobby.
The best approach would be to totally ignore it. If they try to retcon it into something less bad, they would still make it all canon and by that import it into the next iteration of the character. Start the next Punisher run with Frank being undercover in South America for some time, trying to infiltrate some Narcos, implying, but not even mentioning, that this here wasn’t Frank. Maybe give the Hand the ability to conjure up „daemonic mirror beings“ that look like the original character, but are mentally distorted versions of the real being, though they still think they are the real thing. From there on any explanation for what is canon will sort itself out without making a fuss about it.
The amount of money this may have just cost Disney is nuts to think about. Instead of just doing a story where frank got rid of the skull cause people were doing things he didn't agree with using his symbol they just break the character beyond repair
Getting rid of the skull (especially his preferred way of fighting... firearms) is the same as giving eyesight to Daredevil or removing Spider-Man's ability to swing with his webs. So, the moment you start there... it's a slippery slope. And that's exactly what happened.
@@PsychoRavager there was a story where Tony Stark sorted out Daredevils eyes with extremis. It's insane getting rid of the skull with Disneys current financial woes. I can imagine people are lining up to buy that new logo on a t shirt...
@@Whalewraith, yehp. I know about that. And I've really fallen out of love for Western mainstream comics' structure, storytelling, and obsession with the multiverse. I've gotten into manga and anime more because of that, and I have no regrets with that decision. You get stories that, more often than not, have a start and an end. And I really have come to prefer it that way.
@Psycho_ Ravager the problem is what they did was so much worse then just getting rid of the skull or guns they literally had his dead wife come back destroy him and say she was leaving him before she died. My way was just get rid of the skull but keep everything else I mean it's not like you couldn't bring it back at some point and at least a story of frank dealing with his symbol being turned in to something he doesn't recognize at least sounds like a good character driven story
@@PsychoRavager I get that, I mainly buy back issues and the occasional mini series that gets my intrest. Enjoyed the 1st issue of w0rldtr33 & the murderworld mini series a few months back. That was basically Squid game with a cast of nobody's and it was pretty intresting to see who made it through.
The punisher needs to be sell of to a indie publisher because this is a huge middle finger Punisher fans and they don't care if the fans are upset, but at the same everyone knew this was going to happen as modern marvel trying to get rid of him. I hope Marvel goes out of business.
@@EvandroACruzas long as crime and drug trafficking continue to exist, the punisher will never be dated you, do you hear that right or do you just believe your own arguments?
I thought of something. Strange Tales Vol 2 issue 14 had The Punisher confront Cloak and Dagger because he had been falsely led to believe they were involved in drug trafficking. Cloak & Dagger were defended by Power Pack as well as a local priest, and Frank backed off because he realized that they must not be bad people if people like that were fighting on their behalf. Dagger mentioned reports of Frank shooting litterbugs and jaywalkers (part of a previous Punisher story), and he replied that he only did that because he had been drugged and manipulated by an enemy. There was also a comic (I think it was called Double Edge: Alpha) in which Frank accepted an offer of psychotherapy from Doc Samson while in SHIELD custody. Unfortunately an enemy tampered with the hypnotherapy session and led to Frank almost killing Nick Fury, so we don't know if it would have helped. My point is Frank, as murderous as he was, used to be portrayed as someone who had morals and generally understood when to back off, so this whole "You're the worst!" spiel isn't fitting (and this is coming from someone who never really liked the character). If they're going to have a warped depiction of The Punisher, they should make it funny like in Super-Hero Squad. Speaking of botched depictions, there was a New Avengers issue which had Jigsaw break Spider-Man's arm with ease. When fans complained, it was revealed that the artist who drew the scene had no idea who Jigsaw was, but thought, "He looks tough, I bet he has super-strength!" It's not a good sign when the people who make the comic can't be bothered to research the characters.
I felt Garth Ennis was the one who made Frank a psycho. Even though the older Punsher stories had some real crap plots, the old stuff was the Punisher I liked. Each story a mission in the war on crime.
Jason aaron is great at annihilating every thing you love about your favorite characters l. He did it with thor and his lore even when he was off the run. He did it with she hulk on the avengers. He even did it to the other avengers and entities like star brand and pheonix to name a few in that run. Now he did it to punisher. I'm sad but not surprised. Be thankful hes gone and hope he doesn't return to marvel for a long time.
I'm absolutely speechless as to what Disney and Aaron has done to the Punisher. These are sad times. Arguably one of the most pathetic moments -- and there is a lot in modern Marvel -- since Rogers said Hail Hydra.
I was mortified when they made Steve Rogers into a Nazi... Up until that point, he was the moral compass of The Avengers if not the entire Marvel franchise.
Thing about that is, Captain America, Hydra Sleeper could actually have made for a compelling storyline but if you're going to pull a wild stunt like that that shakes the character to the core, you need the faith of the readers and Marvel has gone out of their way for years pissing that all down the drain. They're still acting like they don't actually need us to read the comicbooks. I think they're in for a rude awakening once the capeshit genre winds down at the movies over the next year. It's gonna be fun once the layoffs start rolling in.😁
I'm old enough to remember the first ever appearance of the punisher. He's never been a character that I've particularly card for, but even so, I seem to have much more respect for him than the people who are currently working on his what next, are they going to bring uncle Ben back and have him towel? Peter Parker that he's been wasting his time all these years? I'd better not say anymore, I might give them ideas.
"He was a psycopathic serial killer from the start. He was not the husband he remembered himself as, but a monster who his wife (and in his case kids) feared." If that bit of paraphrasing rings true, this is Al Simmons/Spawn, back when they had the whole deal with Mammon and he was supposed to be an abusive husband that caused his wifes miscarriage. If the goal was to remove the character, they could've written a nice Swan Song, and killed him off in one final huge one vs all sweep against the various criminal elements.
Also Frank always targeted those that oppressed the weak and the innocent. Frank never saw his bad, kind of like Robin Williams in What Dreams May come.
You guys really brought up the greatest point against Marvel for doing this to Frank. The people that they are crying about wearing the skull logo for the most part probably don’t even know it’s from a comic book character let alone actually read or currently reading this trash. So they are sticking it to people that don’t care and in the process destroying one of their most popular legacy characters. Nice job Marvel, keep playing yourself you absolute regards. Also nice extra salt in the wound is that the only thing people are looking forward or has had any real interest from people are Spider Verse and Spider-Man 2 for PS5. Both of which mainly profit Sony and not your company you absolute losers hahaha.
Castle wakes up in shower. Wife and kids are in kitchen preparing breakfast. All Punisher comics were only a dream after Frank's long day at the office. The End.
At least there's a clear delineation. The character named Frank Castle who wears a bad 90s tribal tattoo on his shirt is not the Frank Castle with the cool skull logo we all love.
I was waiting for this. They did the punisher dirty fr. His wife being brought back was beyond stupid. I couldn't stand the fact that he killed ares. And basically had superpowers. I miss the street level aggressive gun welding frank castle. Not this clown who uses swords and stuff. 😆 🤣 damn marvel.
And one more thing who thinks it's so hypocritical by Steve Rogers judging Frank acts with Wolverine and Black Widow in your side in the entire run?Marvel moral dissonance gives me in the nerves sometimes.
Punisher is a cold blooded murderer right. He was a killer before he got married and had kids. THAT is canon. [He was a Viet Nam Vet in some iterations and in later iterations a Vet of Afghanistan]. The revelation that he was a flawed husband and father just adds to his tragedy and the reality that IN ADDITION to being skilled at killing, he used the (very easy and understandable) excuse of the deaths of his wife and children to justify his war of those who killed them. But he never stopped, did he? The tragedy of Frank Castle was that he was robbed of an opportunity to become a better father and husband by his family's untimely deaths. Castle fills that void by lying to himself that his purpose is to kill bad guys...when what he really wanted was to redeem himself in the eyes of his wife and kids. Frank Castle has remained in extreme denial as to his true nature until his experience with the Hand and the resurrection of his wife snaps him into reality. Having embraced and accepted the truth about himself at the end of Aaron's run, Frank still vows to always love and protect his wife regardless of what she thinks of him.... and in my view....likely harbors a forlorn hope that she will embrace him one day. Thus, the post-Aaron Frank Castle is more interesting because he has evolved into a character that not only continues to kill bad guys, but is reminded of what he lost of his own volition and more importantly, what he could (maybe?) win back, if he made different choices. No man is an island, especially if you're a castle. 🙂 [I acknowledge that I appear to be in the minority in loving Aaron's story. It is additive to his character and grounds Frank Castle with a verisimilitude that the character has been lacking since his creation.]
This is just another example of the creative bankruptcy that is prevalent at Marvel. It's been painful to watch the American comics industry self destruct at the hands of people who obviously don't love or respect the art-form. I'm praying that the rumored reboot will be given to competent writers and artists. It's a fool's hope but that's all we have left.
What I never got about this run was the fact the punisher was all aboard for bringing his family back. Yet he actually had this same offer in the siege era of comics, where the hood promised same thing and we knew he could do it. The punisher was like their not my family lit them on fire continue on with his war against crime.
I avoid him since reading Original Sin. After reading Gor the Godbutcher, it seemed like Jason Aaron was a good writer, but with Female Thor and Original Sin, I lost any interest. Is there anything worth reading he did since or did I dodge a bullet here (as this comic seems to indicate)?
"Sure Punisher I've killed way more people than you have since I've been around for hundreds of years an' I'm regularly in five comic books a month instead of one. But you're worse cuz you ain't never said bub. BUB!" - Wolverine.
If a writer's goal is to ruin characters and alienate their fans instead of creating something positive and original. What does that say about them as artists?
I’d like to congratulate Jason Aaron for making me finally turn my back on Marvel. Every marvel character officially sucks now. Every single one. I’ve gone from 10-15 comics a week to 1 or 2. Now I’m reading Manga. And actually feel excited when I’m reading a story.
I think this is the 3rd or 4th time that the Pumisher has been killed. I give it 2-3 months before he’s brought back with a new writer who hopefully understands that the Punisher is a cautionary tale for the failures of the judicial system.
How Jason Aaron will be remembered as a comic writer will be with fondness. He will be remembered for a terrible Avengers run, an even more terrible Thor run, and a Punisher run that has surpassed Angel Punisher angle in terms of cringe. He will be remembered for doing nothing of value in the world of comics.
@@cahe6161 I fully agree that Gor the Godbutcher was a good story line, but I personally left in the next story line due to being disappointed. For me, one good story line doesn’t make a good run, so I wouldn’t rate his Thor run well, but would recommend the Gor story. That said, I‘m aware that other people liked the story line after Gor, but it sobered me on Jason Aaron. What also didn’t help was Original Sin, which I wouldn’t recommend at all.
@@davidgantenbein9362 Gorr is great, 11 issues... I don't actually know how many issues he wrote after that, seems like 100 ranging from borderline ok (first few issues of Jane Foster I guess) to bad to abysmally awful.
@@davidgantenbein9362 well there was Jane Foster Thor which started out ok as a storyline but got bad for a very long time, then you have Jane Foster Valkyrie because they can't just have her be a nice dr lady etc etc
I don’t understand. If the heads of Marvel are convinced that Frank Castle is too toxic, offensive and socially unacceptable for modern-day sensibilities…fine. Just STOP PUBLISHING the character. Why even put the twisted effort into ruining and humiliating the classic character? Just STOP USING HIM!
Blame the enablers that keep buying stuff like this from Aaron and King and convince themselves that it's highbrow "deconstruction" and not lazy character assassination.
I mean...this is traditional for Marvel. The character is due to make a new live action appearance so it must be damaged and/ or removed from current comics.
I've yet to read this run, but I've heard nothing but bad things about it. This is a shame because about a decade ago, Jason Aaron actually wrote one of the best Punisher runs in MAX. His work on Wolverine is also some of my favorite for that character.
Almost all of the Avengers have killed people in the past for one reason or another, so they’re in no position to judge The Punisher. Hell, Wolverine and Black Widow are both far older than Frank, so their respective body counts are probably much higher than his. Don’t even get me started on Thor either. The dude is a Viking war god who is literally thousands of years old. He’s probably killed more people than he can remember.
I read just the first arch and stop after issue #6. I hated the old lady who worked for the Hand. I hated that after defeating Aries, Punisher was still battling Aries instead of Daredevil. And changing his back story was unforgiveable.
Whilst I don’t care for the character, I also don’t like the character being ruined for his fans. This could equally happen to characters I like. I would urge my fellow comic book fans, to do what I did years ago, and stop buying marvel. Marvel’s soul has been dead a long, long time ago.
Garth Ennis started the Punisher was a serial killer no matter what. He just also told better stories and didn't completely throw it in the readers face. See Born in how he set up a general to get sniped because Frank didn't agree with his orders. It was the moment I started to jump off the Ennis Punisher.
Jason Aaron does not write Marvel without retconning. And his retcons will 100% be worse than the old history. Jason Aaron wrote his own pocket Marvel Universe that ultimately nobody wanted.
Nowhere. Soy Marvel won’t do OG punisher because they hate guns and the fans. They might try to use this ninja version / punisher light occasionally. Probably make him trans and try to spread The Message
The Punisher was the culmination of two things. Movies like Death Wish that pointed out, despite the ridiculous premise, justice does fail and bad guys do get away with evil and this makes innocent men snap and do vile things. And second, action movies. Men like Punisher for the same reason we like action movies. We like action. But Disney can't let us have anything masculine anymore, can they
To add, when Jason Aaron got this job as the new Punisher writer, I knew exactly what his goal was. Because if anyone remembers when he took over Max, he stated the exact same thing in that series. He recontextualized what happened the day Frank's family got killed and Frank knew that his family was to be killed that day and did nothing to stop it in order to continue doing what he loved, being at war. I remember reading that and just hating everything conned with Aaron and the Punisher after that.
We need Jonathan Hickman's Moira back! The mutant Moira. She can reset all of these anomalies in Earth-616 back, even to an earlier time, and move it forward.
This is Jason Aaron seeking penance, he gave Frank a pretty satisfying finale before, and he must have felt guilty about it because in this book he punished Frank for existing as a character. I hope he is happy with that ending because I'm not.
Wouldn’t Frank be able to sue her if she “falsely claimed” to be dead and now wants a divorce? I feel like that wouldn’t be legally possible for more than one reason… for instance, how do you divorce someone when you’ve been legally declared dead for years???
No. If Natasha stops looking out for her, some govt agent or crime organization will be asking questions on why blood money was donated in Frank Castles children’s names. Which will lead to Maria being in deep shit.
I'm done with marvel. Especially Captain America. He's gone SUPER LIBERAL by reprimanding Castle for ridding the world of cartels and criminal organizations that they failed to stop. It's actually the writers stance against vengeance being a justifiable motivation. Have we seen punisher kill a single innocent?
Jason Aaron’s run will never be considered canon by the Punisher fans.
Correct 💯
@@IrishWolfHound215 Unfortunately, Punisher ninja also appeared in Daredevil where he played quite a big role, so he can't be ignored.
@@TonySopranoXXXXX Challenge accepted.😁 If Waid's _dogshit_ Daredevil run can be yeeted out of existence, PINO can be Stark-snapped even faster than that.
@@The_Mighty_Fiction For me, the Punisher will return in the new Daredevil series and will try to kill him to get revenge against him.
It’s like Batman’s parents coming back to life and revealing that Bruce was an obsessive compulsive since he was a toddler and they actually were planning to send him away but they got killed. NOT that I’m pitching such a horrible concept but that’s essentially what they did to THE PUNISHER.
But the Punisher is a mass murderer,of course a decent person like your wife would turn against him.
@@EvandroACruz no one is saying that she should be ok with what he does. She shouldn’t be alive to begin with. She comes back as a modern, toxic bitch… yeah what a great story.
@@EvandroACruz He killed scum. That's it. I'm not loosing sleep over the people he killed.
Shut your face before you give them ideas man!
Don't give them any ideas
Huge Punisher fan. I stopped reading this run after issue #1 and the origin change. I actually really enjoyed the Matthew Rosenberg run that preceded where Punisher gets an Iron Man suit and acts exactly like the Punisher would given that opportunity. I loved the old school Garth Ennis, Mike Barron and Chuck Dixon Punishers and have a real soft spot for Greg Rucka's Rachel Cole-Ives Punisher stories. Anyone missing the real Punisher has plenty of great stories to chose from. This is one of the great and most popular Marvel characters of all time and those stories will always be in print or on digital. I'm also a man in my 50s proud to continue to wear a Punisher T-shirt. You guys are right. Nothing has changed except for Marvel not getting my money for new Punisher comics.
Rosenberg sucks.The Mandarin death is pure non sense.Rucka run was the latest good Punisher run.
I won't be buying any new Punisher. I'd rather read the bad stuff from the past than whatever they are doing now and going forward.
I have a question. I learned that in the ‘90s (or maybe very early ‘00s), there was an event called Double Edge. The theme was Frank, due to an enemy interfering with his memories, mistakenly thought Nick Fury had killed his family. He set out to kill Fury and seemingly did (except it turned out he hadn’t because reasons). My question was did Frank ever learn Nick hadn’t killed his family? I just wondered if that were ever resolved or if they just said, “Eh, who cares? On to the next big thing!”
Thank you for the defense of the Punisher character. I’ve seen all 3 of your Punisher videos. Good as well but one thing you could have commented on is one of the other reasons for his existence. He came to life at a time when our streets were filled with crime. Not too unlike today. Charles Bronson probably became a household name from the Deathwish movies playing a character not unlike Frank Castle. In real life we had Bernie Goetz, who many saw as a vigilante. We had the Mafia in NY. Punisher came to life in this environment. He killed bad guys. I believe in incarceration, not murder. But Punisher was fiction. Maybe revenge fantasy. I’m glad I still have my old Punisher books to go back to.
I think we have all read a news story where an obviously guilty criminal gets away with it or gets a light punishment. Describing Frank as a revenge fantasy is accurate. He can do what the Marvel Superheroes won't and what we can't.
Easily one of the most malicious things done in comics. This was specifically done to attack fans of the character. It was never about wanting to make a good or interesting story. This is Tom King levels of character assassination, and fan hate.
Fully agreed and very well said. I could not have said it better.
Absolutely correct. This was an attack on the character and the character's fans. It not only ruined Frank, it ruined his wife Maria as well. She was a kind, loving wife. Now she's a mean spirited, cruel woman. This story ruins the Punisher characters the way the Disney Star Wars movies ruin the Star Wars characters.
that, gay robin, and how they do spiderman
That's what it feels like. Jason Aaron needs to be punished. Sentence him to work at WAL-MART!
Jason Aaron ruined Thor, the Avengers, and the X-men during his time at Marvel. So I am not truly surprised by this punisher run by him.
So basically Jason Aaron is a literal lethal injection to any story he gets involved in?
100% this. The most overrated writer in comics.
It's the fault of Marvel. Aaron didn't destroy Conan because the Conan people wouldn't let it happen. The Punisher didn't have such an advocate to shield him, though.
Hey, at least he's consistent.
I mean, Godbutcher and Godbomb were pretty damn good, but everything else he did was garbage.
"Even Wolverine thinks the Punisher is bad!"
Yes, the same Wolverine who split from the X-Men during Schism because he thought Scott was going to far with the formation of the new X-Force. Then he went on to form his own X-Force. While teaching kids at his own school not to kill but still continuing to himself because he's a huge hypocrite. Then he cries about it when Daken is brought back to life by Apocalypse. Also the fact that Logan has been alive for centuries longer than Frank means his body count is way higher since he's the best at what he does. Let's say Logan's killed 10 people a month for 150 years. That's at least 18,000 people. Wolverine is a bigger monster.
Wolverine is a cuck. Quit reading when they put him in a thruple.
10 a month, tha...is to low, for wolverine, thats a slow day dealing with yakuza. Honestly most heroes have blood on their hands and have done much much worse than Frank,
In short,
They don't know how to write wolverine either and he may be next on the chopping block
That Wolverine was ALSO written by Jason Aaron while Jason Aaron was ruining X-Men.
@@ScienceJesus I wish they would separate it all into different universes so that was you can have the soy "Aaronverse" and a classic Marvel Universe. Then they can just wash their hands of all this.
Jason Aaron made Ghost Rider an angel and She Hulk a cavewoman. Never forget.
I enjoyed the angel powers storyline.
So Frank’s wife was going to tell him that she wanted a divorce in front of their kids on a picnic.
Most people that wear the Punisher logo, or Superman and Batman don’t read comics.
The only thing they do is follow shallow trends.
Damn, after defeating so many foes, Frank Castle was finally slain by the fun police. RIP
*BA dum tiss*
Jihad!!?
*I COULDNTs thynk of THAT we're to Save My Life's.....Yeah, Jihad...frank be....Laughing at dat Shyts
But soon the fun police will reap what they sow
@@KainSpada09 the tide is turning my friend
As wally west fan, I sympathise with Punisher fans.
I sympathize with both of you as a U.S.Agent fan.
*Somewhere in the Marvel offices"
Zeb Wells: I'm writing one of the worst stories in my characters history
Jason Aaron: Hold my beer
Oh settle down children, your both terrible!
That’s sad. I’m not even the biggest fan of the Punisher and I feel so bad.
Also, I'm not a Punisher fan per se. But this treatment was trash.
Rest in peace, Frank 😢
Let us all collectively disregard this run from the canon and hope for better Punisher stories in the future.
What pisses me off is that I never asked for this. I love the Punisher and have ready many good books over the years, but yet here we are...dissing the fans again. Marvel is shameful...
To repeat what I commented on Drunk 3PO's video on this topic... here goes.
Rest in peace, Frank Castle.
The Punisher, in my eyes, will never be what MARVEL turned him into. He'll always represent what it means to lose everything and to try to fight for what's right even if it means losing yourself in an eternal struggle against those that commit evil.
His character, his symbol will forever help me through the broken road ahead... that, sometimes, it is the imperfect and, at times, the visceral nature of reality that the world needs to see and understand.
A damaged soul in a heartless world filled to the brim with monsters. Instead of giving up, he pushed through... whatever means necessary. If that's not relatable, I don't know what is.
This! Right here! Sir you put into word exactly how I feel as well. Good to know I’m not alone!! Sometimes the only way thru something is going thru it. Just keep going.
If the punisher is so controversial then why is the John Wick franchise so popular? One could argue that the punisher and John Wick or essentially the same character when you think about it. The only difference between them is one is avenging the death of a puppy and they are the other is avenging the death of a family complete with a wife and kids.
Frank always knew he would come to a sad end...he just didn't know how sad.
The way to fix it is that it wasn't really his wife, but a Hand member masquerading as her, or a demon working for The Demon, and he returns to kill the hand for what they did.
That will of course probably happen at some point. But it’s the fact that they let it happen in the first hand and at the same time giving us this awful background on Frank that was never there before.
@@PapaMartyo4331 oh, I understand, they f**ked up here, but I'm giving them a way out. As for messing with his past, it's memory manipulation, never happened, like Jean grey brainwashing Bobby.
Makes me wish Marvel had the same type of "reboots" as DC sometimes, so that shit like this can be hand hand away
The best approach would be to totally ignore it. If they try to retcon it into something less bad, they would still make it all canon and by that import it into the next iteration of the character.
Start the next Punisher run with Frank being undercover in South America for some time, trying to infiltrate some Narcos, implying, but not even mentioning, that this here wasn’t Frank. Maybe give the Hand the ability to conjure up „daemonic mirror beings“ that look like the original character, but are mentally distorted versions of the real being, though they still think they are the real thing. From there on any explanation for what is canon will sort itself out without making a fuss about it.
I personally don't consider Jason Aaron's work on the Punisher or Avengers canon. Whoever allowed this should be fired
The amount of money this may have just cost Disney is nuts to think about. Instead of just doing a story where frank got rid of the skull cause people were doing things he didn't agree with using his symbol they just break the character beyond repair
Getting rid of the skull (especially his preferred way of fighting... firearms) is the same as giving eyesight to Daredevil or removing Spider-Man's ability to swing with his webs. So, the moment you start there... it's a slippery slope. And that's exactly what happened.
@@PsychoRavager there was a story where Tony Stark sorted out Daredevils eyes with extremis.
It's insane getting rid of the skull with Disneys current financial woes. I can imagine people are lining up to buy that new logo on a t shirt...
@@Whalewraith, yehp. I know about that. And I've really fallen out of love for Western mainstream comics' structure, storytelling, and obsession with the multiverse. I've gotten into manga and anime more because of that, and I have no regrets with that decision. You get stories that, more often than not, have a start and an end. And I really have come to prefer it that way.
@Psycho_ Ravager the problem is what they did was so much worse then just getting rid of the skull or guns they literally had his dead wife come back destroy him and say she was leaving him before she died. My way was just get rid of the skull but keep everything else I mean it's not like you couldn't bring it back at some point and at least a story of frank dealing with his symbol being turned in to something he doesn't recognize at least sounds like a good character driven story
@@PsychoRavager I get that, I mainly buy back issues and the occasional mini series that gets my intrest. Enjoyed the 1st issue of w0rldtr33 & the murderworld mini series a few months back. That was basically Squid game with a cast of nobody's and it was pretty intresting to see who made it through.
The punisher needs to be sell of to a indie publisher because this is a huge middle finger Punisher fans and they don't care if the fans are upset, but at the same everyone knew this was going to happen as modern marvel trying to get rid of him. I hope Marvel goes out of business.
The Punisher is a dated concept for yours fans sadness.
@@EvandroACruzas long as crime and drug trafficking continue to exist, the punisher will never be dated you, do you hear that right or do you just believe your own arguments?
@@EvandroACruznevermind, Sound of Freedom, John Wick, The Equalizer, Hitman (Agent 47), and bunch of other characters and movies.
Yawn...
I thought of something. Strange Tales Vol 2 issue 14 had The Punisher confront Cloak and Dagger because he had been falsely led to believe they were involved in drug trafficking. Cloak & Dagger were defended by Power Pack as well as a local priest, and Frank backed off because he realized that they must not be bad people if people like that were fighting on their behalf. Dagger mentioned reports of Frank shooting litterbugs and jaywalkers (part of a previous Punisher story), and he replied that he only did that because he had been drugged and manipulated by an enemy. There was also a comic (I think it was called Double Edge: Alpha) in which Frank accepted an offer of psychotherapy from Doc Samson while in SHIELD custody. Unfortunately an enemy tampered with the hypnotherapy session and led to Frank almost killing Nick Fury, so we don't know if it would have helped. My point is Frank, as murderous as he was, used to be portrayed as someone who had morals and generally understood when to back off, so this whole "You're the worst!" spiel isn't fitting (and this is coming from someone who never really liked the character). If they're going to have a warped depiction of The Punisher, they should make it funny like in Super-Hero Squad.
Speaking of botched depictions, there was a New Avengers issue which had Jigsaw break Spider-Man's arm with ease. When fans complained, it was revealed that the artist who drew the scene had no idea who Jigsaw was, but thought, "He looks tough, I bet he has super-strength!" It's not a good sign when the people who make the comic can't be bothered to research the characters.
I felt Garth Ennis was the one who made Frank a psycho. Even though the older Punsher stories had some real crap plots, the old stuff was the Punisher I liked. Each story a mission in the war on crime.
We’re talking about max right?
@@MetalMadness_00 Pretty much the whole run but especially Max, that mini called Born where Frank frags his CO in Vietnam wasn't the Frank I knew.
Jason aaron is great at annihilating every thing you love about your favorite characters l. He did it with thor and his lore even when he was off the run. He did it with she hulk on the avengers. He even did it to the other avengers and entities like star brand and pheonix to name a few in that run. Now he did it to punisher. I'm sad but not surprised. Be thankful hes gone and hope he doesn't return to marvel for a long time.
Yup pretty much that.
And Brian Michael Bendis
I'm absolutely speechless as to what Disney and Aaron has done to the Punisher. These are sad times. Arguably one of the most pathetic moments -- and there is a lot in modern Marvel -- since Rogers said Hail Hydra.
Why? Were you not paying attention for 3 decades?
I was mortified when they made Steve Rogers into a Nazi... Up until that point, he was the moral compass of The Avengers if not the entire Marvel franchise.
@@wordfabstream8745 LOL I stopped paying attention the moment they turned a little Muslim girl into Stretch Armstrong 😂😂😂
Thing about that is, Captain America, Hydra Sleeper could actually have made for a compelling storyline but if you're going to pull a wild stunt like that that shakes the character to the core, you need the faith of the readers and Marvel has gone out of their way for years pissing that all down the drain. They're still acting like they don't actually need us to read the comicbooks. I think they're in for a rude awakening once the capeshit genre winds down at the movies over the next year. It's gonna be fun once the layoffs start rolling in.😁
@@The_Mighty_Fiction This is true.
I'm old enough to remember the first ever appearance of the punisher. He's never been a character that I've particularly card for, but even so, I seem to have much more respect for him than the people who are currently working on his what next, are they going to bring uncle Ben back and have him towel? Peter Parker that he's been wasting his time all these years? I'd better not say anymore, I might give them ideas.
The current bunch of writers at Marvel would definitely do that. They don’t believe that people should have strong male role models.
"He was a psycopathic serial killer from the start. He was not the husband he remembered himself as, but a monster who his wife (and in his case kids) feared."
If that bit of paraphrasing rings true, this is Al Simmons/Spawn, back when they had the whole deal with Mammon and he was supposed to be an abusive husband that caused his wifes miscarriage.
If the goal was to remove the character, they could've written a nice Swan Song, and killed him off in one final huge one vs all sweep against the various criminal elements.
There is a difference between removing a character or destroying a character, so my guess is that the goal was the later.
Good, the punisher needs to go. Too many nut jobs look at him like a hero and wear his symbol and believe they should take justice in there own hands.
Also Frank always targeted those that oppressed the weak and the innocent. Frank never saw his bad, kind of like Robin Williams in What Dreams May come.
You guys really brought up the greatest point against Marvel for doing this to Frank. The people that they are crying about wearing the skull logo for the most part probably don’t even know it’s from a comic book character let alone actually read or currently reading this trash. So they are sticking it to people that don’t care and in the process destroying one of their most popular legacy characters. Nice job Marvel, keep playing yourself you absolute regards. Also nice extra salt in the wound is that the only thing people are looking forward or has had any real interest from people are Spider Verse and Spider-Man 2 for PS5. Both of which mainly profit Sony and not your company you absolute losers hahaha.
With this ending I have to wonder why they changed The Punisher's logo? You'd think they'd be happy AF to do this to him wearing that logo.
Castle wakes up in shower. Wife and kids are in kitchen preparing breakfast. All Punisher comics were only a dream after Frank's long day at the office. The End.
I really do feel bad for you punisher fans because you guys got screwed badly.
They left already... first they took his guns and now they took his balls...
@@codernerd7076 yup
Same here, but I think those fans already checked out and probably didn’t read this lol
Punisher fans quit reading decades ago.
@@ChrisP58lol i can understand that and honestly i don't blame them
At least there's a clear delineation. The character named Frank Castle who wears a bad 90s tribal tattoo on his shirt is not the Frank Castle with the cool skull logo we all love.
As much as I abhor what Frank does I get it. Jason Aaron doesn't.
Jason Aaron put the Punisher through a struggle session. 😂😂😂
Well if anyone can be Spider-Man by wearing the mask or anyone can be cap if they have a shield, anyone can don the skull and seek Punishing of evil
I was waiting for this. They did the punisher dirty fr. His wife being brought back was beyond stupid. I couldn't stand the fact that he killed ares. And basically had superpowers. I miss the street level aggressive gun welding frank castle. Not this clown who uses swords and stuff. 😆 🤣 damn marvel.
Great analysis Wes! Can you and Dok also address how Marvel got rid of Nick Fury Sr. recently too?
They got rid of the real Nick Fury for the black guy who stole his name?
@@sird2333 Yup. They sent Nick Fury off into deep space recently. It doesn't look like he will be coming back.
And one more thing who thinks it's so hypocritical by Steve Rogers judging Frank acts with Wolverine and Black Widow in your side in the entire run?Marvel moral dissonance gives me in the nerves sometimes.
Punisher is a cold blooded murderer right. He was a killer before he got married and had kids. THAT is canon. [He was a Viet Nam Vet in some iterations and in later iterations a Vet of Afghanistan]. The revelation that he was a flawed husband and father just adds to his tragedy and the reality that IN ADDITION to being skilled at killing, he used the (very easy and understandable) excuse of the deaths of his wife and children to justify his war of those who killed them. But he never stopped, did he? The tragedy of Frank Castle was that he was robbed of an opportunity to become a better father and husband by his family's untimely deaths. Castle fills that void by lying to himself that his purpose is to kill bad guys...when what he really wanted was to redeem himself in the eyes of his wife and kids. Frank Castle has remained in extreme denial as to his true nature until his experience with the Hand and the resurrection of his wife snaps him into reality. Having embraced and accepted the truth about himself at the end of Aaron's run, Frank still vows to always love and protect his wife regardless of what she thinks of him.... and in my view....likely harbors a forlorn hope that she will embrace him one day. Thus, the post-Aaron Frank Castle is more interesting because he has evolved into a character that not only continues to kill bad guys, but is reminded of what he lost of his own volition and more importantly, what he could (maybe?) win back, if he made different choices. No man is an island, especially if you're a castle. 🙂 [I acknowledge that I appear to be in the minority in loving Aaron's story. It is additive to his character and grounds Frank Castle with a verisimilitude that the character has been lacking since his creation.]
I think Maria might forgive Frank a little given some time. If she doesn’t, i hope they don’t make her into a hypocrite.
This is just another example of the creative bankruptcy that is prevalent at Marvel. It's been painful to watch the American comics industry self destruct at the hands of people who obviously don't love or respect the art-form. I'm praying that the rumored reboot will be given to competent writers and artists. It's a fool's hope but that's all we have left.
What I never got about this run was the fact the punisher was all aboard for bringing his family back. Yet he actually had this same offer in the siege era of comics, where the hood promised same thing and we knew he could do it. The punisher was like their not my family lit them on fire continue on with his war against crime.
This is what happens when you have "writers" who don't like comics writing for people who don't read comics.
Jason Aaron is Marvel Tom King with his character deconstruction
If you're still Reading any Jason Aaron's comics in 2023, you love to be screwed.
I avoid him since reading Original Sin. After reading Gor the Godbutcher, it seemed like Jason Aaron was a good writer, but with Female Thor and Original Sin, I lost any interest. Is there anything worth reading he did since or did I dodge a bullet here (as this comic seems to indicate)?
"Sure Punisher I've killed way more people than you have since I've been around for hundreds of years an' I'm regularly in five comic books a month instead of one. But you're worse cuz you ain't never said bub. BUB!" - Wolverine.
It’s things like this that reassure me I did the right thing deciding not to buy any new comics
Creators really do like breaking characters, these days. Seems to be a tread across the board. Comics, movies, tv shows.....
Punisher fans were only affected by this if they were reading this series in the first place, and I suspect that none were.
If a writer's goal is to ruin characters and alienate their fans instead of creating something positive and original. What does that say about them as artists?
I’d like to congratulate Jason Aaron for making me finally turn my back on Marvel. Every marvel character officially sucks now. Every single one. I’ve gone from 10-15 comics a week to 1 or 2.
Now I’m reading Manga. And actually feel excited when I’m reading a story.
I think this is the 3rd or 4th time that the Pumisher has been killed. I give it 2-3 months before he’s brought back with a new writer who hopefully understands that the Punisher is a cautionary tale for the failures of the judicial system.
At what point did Marvel Comics get replaced by a version from an alternate world run by Mephisto?
Never really been a Punisher fan, but this sucks! As a big-time fan of Hank Pym, I feel for you guys!
How Jason Aaron will be remembered as a comic writer will be with fondness. He will be remembered for a terrible Avengers run, an even more terrible Thor run, and a Punisher run that has surpassed Angel Punisher angle in terms of cringe. He will be remembered for doing nothing of value in the world of comics.
Thor The God Thunder run, specially the Gorr storyline were good, the rest is crap
@@cahe6161 I fully agree that Gor the Godbutcher was a good story line, but I personally left in the next story line due to being disappointed. For me, one good story line doesn’t make a good run, so I wouldn’t rate his Thor run well, but would recommend the Gor story. That said, I‘m aware that other people liked the story line after Gor, but it sobered me on Jason Aaron. What also didn’t help was Original Sin, which I wouldn’t recommend at all.
@@davidgantenbein9362 Gorr is great, 11 issues... I don't actually know how many issues he wrote after that, seems like 100 ranging from borderline ok (first few issues of Jane Foster I guess) to bad to abysmally awful.
@@jbbrolic So it got worse after I left … gonna admit it, I‘m now kind of happy that I left while I only started to hate Jane Foster as a character.
@@davidgantenbein9362 well there was Jane Foster Thor which started out ok as a storyline but got bad for a very long time, then you have Jane Foster Valkyrie because they can't just have her be a nice dr lady etc etc
I don’t understand. If the heads of Marvel are convinced that Frank Castle is too toxic, offensive and socially unacceptable for modern-day sensibilities…fine. Just STOP PUBLISHING the character. Why even put the twisted effort into ruining and humiliating the classic character? Just STOP USING HIM!
BUTT da furr rite tho!
😆
It's outright ridiculous and depressing how much fan fiction is unapologetically forced into fictional story telling as canon these days.
Blame the enablers that keep buying stuff like this from Aaron and King and convince themselves that it's highbrow "deconstruction" and not lazy character assassination.
I mean...this is traditional for Marvel. The character is due to make a new live action appearance so it must be damaged and/ or removed from current comics.
Jason Aaron killed Punisher Max too
Garth Ennis run on Frank Castle was the best. Yes, there were some ridiculous moments, but it was gritty and awesome.
Ennis is the main responsible by turned Frank in a psycho many years before your family death.Your Frank is just a sick man that loves kills people.
Honestly this comic is an easy fix that can build up to a good story for Frank if they do it right.
Do not mention Frankenstein and Punisher, please I'm getting flashbacks to FrakenCastle... and that run actually started so well back in the day
Really more of the same for Disney comics.
I've yet to read this run, but I've heard nothing but bad things about it. This is a shame because about a decade ago, Jason Aaron actually wrote one of the best Punisher runs in MAX. His work on Wolverine is also some of my favorite for that character.
Almost all of the Avengers have killed people in the past for one reason or another, so they’re in no position to judge The Punisher. Hell, Wolverine and Black Widow are both far older than Frank, so their respective body counts are probably much higher than his. Don’t even get me started on Thor either. The dude is a Viking war god who is literally thousands of years old. He’s probably killed more people than he can remember.
I read just the first arch and stop after issue #6. I hated the old lady who worked for the Hand. I hated that after defeating Aries, Punisher was still battling Aries instead of Daredevil. And changing his back story was unforgiveable.
I didn't know Marvel still existed.
I dropped that entire line years ago.
Whilst I don’t care for the character, I also don’t like the character being ruined for his fans. This could equally happen to characters I like.
I would urge my fellow comic book fans, to do what I did years ago, and stop buying marvel. Marvel’s soul has been dead a long, long time ago.
That Punisher symbol still so messed up.
Awesome work guys
Garth Ennis started the Punisher was a serial killer no matter what. He just also told better stories and didn't completely throw it in the readers face. See Born in how he set up a general to get sniped because Frank didn't agree with his orders. It was the moment I started to jump off the Ennis Punisher.
Jason Aaron breaks down every single character he’s written. 🖕you J.A.
Jason Aaron does not write Marvel without retconning. And his retcons will 100% be worse than the old history. Jason Aaron wrote his own pocket Marvel Universe that ultimately nobody wanted.
So I guess you could say Marvel really punished Frank here.
This makes me want to go back and read Punisher Max and War Journal again.
Where does punisher go from here ?
Nowhere. Soy Marvel won’t do OG punisher because they hate guns and the fans. They might try to use this ninja version / punisher light occasionally. Probably make him trans and try to spread The Message
So Aaron just told his crappy PunisherMAX story again but reversed the divorce line? Lame.
The Punisher was the culmination of two things. Movies like Death Wish that pointed out, despite the ridiculous premise, justice does fail and bad guys do get away with evil and this makes innocent men snap and do vile things. And second, action movies. Men like Punisher for the same reason we like action movies. We like action. But Disney can't let us have anything masculine anymore, can they
To add, when Jason Aaron got this job as the new Punisher writer, I knew exactly what his goal was. Because if anyone remembers when he took over Max, he stated the exact same thing in that series. He recontextualized what happened the day Frank's family got killed and Frank knew that his family was to be killed that day and did nothing to stop it in order to continue doing what he loved, being at war. I remember reading that and just hating everything conned with Aaron and the Punisher after that.
Marvel taking me back to the pre-Marvel Knights era when their books got so bad I stopped collecting them.
good day to everyone in the multiverse, except jason aaron
This and the current Spider-Man run, are why I'm not buying Marvel anymore.
LOL Di$ney comics, I have my Garth Ennis Punisher comics I can read again anytime I don't need to read hate comics
We need Jonathan Hickman's Moira back! The mutant Moira. She can reset all of these anomalies in Earth-616 back, even to an earlier time, and move it forward.
The punishes logo isn't even the punisher's logo it's from a Bottle of poison for christ's sakes.
Justice for the punisher
So.... When does Jigsaw #1 come out?
This hack never failed to deliver
Is their any reason Jason Aaron is still on marvels top projects
This is Jason Aaron seeking penance, he gave Frank a pretty satisfying finale before, and he must have felt guilty about it because in this book he punished Frank for existing as a character. I hope he is happy with that ending because I'm not.
Wouldn’t Frank be able to sue her if she “falsely claimed” to be dead and now wants a divorce? I feel like that wouldn’t be legally possible for more than one reason… for instance, how do you divorce someone when you’ve been legally declared dead for years???
No. If Natasha stops looking out for her, some govt agent or crime organization will be asking questions on why blood money was donated in Frank Castles children’s names. Which will lead to Maria being in deep shit.
they put frank in a tuckable bathing suit
I have an omnibus of his earlier Punisher run, still haven't read it, should I or should I burn it?
No, it wasn't Jason Aaron who turned Punisher into a serial killer. It was Garth Ennis. Aaron is not that imaginative.
I'm just glad that valiant didn't hire him.
I'm done with marvel. Especially Captain America. He's gone SUPER LIBERAL by reprimanding Castle for ridding the world of cartels and criminal organizations that they failed to stop. It's actually the writers stance against vengeance being a justifiable motivation. Have we seen punisher kill a single innocent?
finally TC talking about this, I expected him however to be the first, oh well , better late than never
I was on vacation.
GREAT THINKING CRITICAL MARVEL THE PUNISHER COMICS DID HIS DIRTY