Predator 9500 Home Built 240V Parallel Kit Test & Build Parts: 2X Output Power Using Two Generators!
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2021
- I built a parallel kit for the Harbor Freight Predator 9500 Inverter Generator. This allows you to use two generators at the same time, doubling your output power. THIS IS MERELY WHAT I BUILT AND MADE WORK... PLAY WITH HIGH AMPERAGE ELECTRICITY AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Technical details about the generators (how they're wired, how the parallel kit is wired, break in warnings, power quality readings on an oscilloscope, etc.) may be found on my "All the Technical Tidbits in Under Ten Minutes" video here:
• Predator 9500 Review: ...
The following parts links should be for Amazon Smile charity links, if you use them a portion of the normal purchase price will go to a local community band (Band of the Hills) with which I participate.
PowerHorse Parallel Kit (you will have to shave the corners of the white neutral, but fits great):
bit.ly/3e7iEmB
Small 50 Amp Box I used (very tight space)
low.es/3wu1hm9
Splice Kit to link your purchased cable to the parallel plugs:
low.es/3yGIRA8
8 Gauge Wire (black). You'll also need White, Red, and Green
low.es/3AReYiA
Terminal Block to combine wiring (4 screw)
amzn.to/36xhWuo
Terminal Block to combine wiring (3 screw)
amzn.to/2T7OuZa
Nylon Braided Sleeve:
amzn.to/3AOIEN3
Digital Amp/Voltage/Frequency Meter
amzn.to/3hvZNU6
Special credit to Jason Willoughby here on UA-cam. He was the one that first connected these generators up in parallel on UA-cam, and most importantly, identified the Powerhorse parallel cable as compatible with the predator generators. / @rcjwill954
The following is a link to the full playlist of the video series on these generators, there are now (5),
All The Technical Tidbits
Home Built Parallel Kit
Generator Power vs. Line Power
Easy Start by MicroAir to let a portable generator run your central AC
How To Connect A Generator To Your Home
Playlist: • Predator 9500 Generato...
Hope this helps people! - Наука та технологія
Have I commented yet? If not, subscribed, bell rang, commented, liked, upvoted, shared .... may the algorithm gods smile favorably upon your channel.
lol thanks. Don't think I'm destined for youtube fame. I refuse to make video icons with my face making a dumb expression, and I don't take 3 minutes to start providing relevant information. And never once do you learn what I had for lunch, nor my cat's name.
Great information 👍
This video should have 1 million views. This is awesome and I love the ingenuity! I want to buy 2 of these generators as well for portable home backup during power outage. I figure its more flexible, efficient and quieter(maybe?) than 1 big(15k running watt) conventional open one. but have been waiting for the parallel kit to come out. I have a 3.5ton AC and figure if I buy a soft start kit I should be able to run my entire house with 2 of these. now you got me thinking if I want to buy them and attempt the same thing or just wait for parallel to come out. Cheers!
Thanks! For whatever reason, HF has really been dragging their feet bringing out a parallel kit. Not sure why.
I've got most all the videos published in this series. Including the one covering the soft start I installed on my 5 Ton HVAC. Hopefully you might find it helpful.
Featuring: no click-bait titles or thumbnails featuring featuring cut out faces with ridiculously dumb expressions. Full playlist is here:
ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Buy universal kit Home Depot
@@joemeyer2726 link?
@@braydon9493 Home Depot and etrailer
Good shipping, easy set up and start
Thanks for uploading this. I just bought two Predator 9500s for my food truck instead of paying $10k for two Honda EU700IS generators with their parallel kit. Harbor Freight was no help with finding a parallel kit. Just ordered all the parts to make it.
Glad it helped. My next video in the series has a wiring diagram if that's helpful.
Nice job, Jay!
Thanks!
Great video Jason! I would love to see how you wired the box in detail especially with the 2 Amp meters wiring detail where you join the two generators with the 50amp outlet.
By request I added a wiring diagram in the "All the Technical Tidbits in Under Ten Minutes". The playlist is here: ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Basically each wire color is joined together in the box by color.
The meters need power, so you can wire it to one leg (120VAC) or to the two hots (240VAC). I chose to connect one to the "X" hot, and one to the "Y" hot (the remaining power wire goes to neutral), this way I can monitor the voltage of each leg. (vs. both of them just saying 240V).
There is also a circular ring that you put around the cable that you want to monitor the amperage. I put the rings around the combined output so I could see the total that the pair were making. If you use two, just know that half that number is coming from each.
Nice job! I can see why you would need two of these generators if you wanted to run your AC unit and etc in the home at the same time. Looks like at the minimum, 5,000 dollars. You have the option of running 1 if you don't need the AC.
Yup, you can run one to save fuel, or if you need to do maintenance on one while the other continues to operate.
Thank you for sharing.
My pleasure!
Great job. Our recent Texas winter was brutal. I have my eye on one of these if my ES6500 ever dies (doubt it).
Thanks! It's been my little obsession for the past few weeks. Still need to build an enclosure for them. :-)
@@Texas_DIY I got sucked into the whole enclosure thing. Wasted about $600.00 on a Suncast just to shave a few decibels. My water cooled Honda is quiet enough, and I don’t have any over heating concerns. I am sure the Predator is as quiet or quieter than my ES6500, that would leave only security to worry about.
@@texaslawdawg1902 Yeah, these are quiet enough it's less about noise, and more about having them nearby the power hookup for easy deployment, keeping them clean / out of the weather, and somewhat security from theft / hiding them from plain sight.
Really debating now between building something from scratch, or repurposing a plastic shed... I just can't find a "shed" that is the low height but 6' width I need.
cool crankshaft art!
LoL My son made it. It's a charcoal grill, upper half are wheel hubs. :-)
Great stuff Jason! I pretty much was sold on a parallel predator setup for my home so I designed a similar build in my head. Figured I wasn’t the 1st so got on you tube and found your video and as a technician myself, I was impressed. Thanks for the content! If you wouldn’t mind can you share your ruff cost for the project?
I figure there was around $250 in the parallel kit, (with cost increases probably closer to $300 to make now). It's not so much the box itself, but all the other stuff that adds up. Those terminal blocks that were over $20 each. (4) of those is ~$90 right there, another $17 for the splice, ~$60 for the Powerhorse cable, another 50 or so for cabling.. box, meters, wire loom, heat shrink... it adds up really fast.
Hookup inlet, cabling, etc. ~$180, AC Compressor Soft Start $360, plus the generators. Probably around $4800 in total. Then I went and made a giant wood box for them, and don't want to think about how much that added. Ultimately I'd say I'm in around half the cost ( actually less than half since I'd have to install propane tanks) vs. what I could do a whole house backup generator for since they're usually around $10k to play.
The full playlist is here for the videos, it covers looking at the power quality, AC soft start (super important for generator power, and it has a kind of cost breakdown as well), safely doing the inlet connection to the house, and some other related topics.
ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Your setup has some advantages over a whole house generator.
If one generator goes down you have a backup.
If you move, it’s easier to take your setup to your new house.
If you want to go camping or work somewhere without power, you can take one of the generators with you.
Haha F black outs
I have the 4375 predator I’m trying to hook mine up parallel now and found your video for reference good work
Thanks!
You go with #6-4 SOOW cord for the combined main feed. It is much more flexible. Also a good idea to put a dual 240V breaker 60A in combiner box.
Yeah, welding cable was also suggested, and in hindsight, that would have been much much easier to work with. I was just working from what was at Lowes.
If you're looking at making your own, and you want a breaker in the box where things combine, you might consider the GE1LU502SS box. It has a built in breaker, a 120v outlet, and 50amp plug. Lots more room to work inside, and with the bus bars, probably would need the expensive splicer things. It's just a lot larger.
With my enclosure project (most recent video), I ended up having to extend the length of the shorter cable on my parallel kit. I used your suggestion, and used #8-4 SOOW for the extension, and #6-4 SOOW for the combined feed to the 50amp outlet.
Indeed it is sooo much more flexible to work with. I was able to get the box closed without feeling like I was damaging stuff.
Thanks for the suggestion!
I'm searching for a way to fast change an electric vehicle. As a contractor on jobsites with no power access, this is something I think would work perfectly.
It would. just make sure you're not pulling more than can be generated.
The issue with your unbalanced load could be your wire length being different coming off both generators. Parallel wires are supposed to be the same length. Just a friendly electrician trying to help out. Great job otherwise definitely a great setup.
All good man, though I don't think that's the issue.
The generator is making full phase 240, with a 120v split phase (just the exact same as residential power from the power company).
The two generators are simply merged together. X to X, Y to Y, Neutral to Neutral, Ground to Ground, and after that merge, the wires run to the dryer plug. The generators themselves take care of the magic of synchronizing the power frequencies to match, such that each is just contributing to the overall total. (kind of like batteries wired in parallel)
My meters are measuring the total amperage after the merge on both leg X, and on leg Y. (This is the combined amperage between the two units, so if both are running, divide that AMP number in half to know the load on one leg, of a single generator unit)
If cable length were the cause, that would mean in about 5 feet of cable, I was creating several amps of resistance. (which would be very... bad), and since the meter is displaying the combined output, it wouldn't represent the losses from one side. Plus remember each generator is contributing both X and Y of the split phase power.
Also, in the case of the Power Horse kit we're cannibalizing the cables from, that one is designed to carry power from Generator B, literally into Generator A, and there is no box... the hookups are from the front panel of A (vs. a separate plug). So the whole cable is totally on "one side" in that way.
The imbalance you're seeing is between the two legs of the split phase power. Meaning that by random chance due to the arrangement of breakers in my box (whether they're on X or Y leg), and the location of the loads in my house, end ended up with one leg of the 120V split being a bit higher than the other.
After some additional testing though, the leg with the lower power levels in the video, also services a freezer, and some other appliances that were not running during the filming, so I kind of like it that way, so it leaves some room on that side for those devices, and things are a bit more balanced.
This is the playlist of the full video series, the latest one where it connects to the home might be of interest. ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
I would think the wire length could affect phase, but not load?
Seems more likely that the breaker box might be unbalanced?
Jason your video is incredible. Thank you for doing this! Do you think HF, or Predator will make a parallel kit at some point for the 9500s? I want to just buy something made and ready to hook up to house.
I'm not sure. I don't know what the delay really is with 'em. Honda has an interesting one, but I'm not sure if the plug spacing is the same to fit. (the cables end in a single plastic plug, so it may or may not line up). There is another mentioned in the various comments that might work, but doesn't include the neutral, so the ground cable would be doing double duty for that.
Great video I had my electrician put the cut off main power switch and the ability to connect my predator 9500 to the breaker box like you are using so everything works great I have gas water heater and heat stove etc we tried to run the AC and it shut off the generator he told me it’s all about amps!! I am going to have to get the soft start and another 9500 the 240 plug on the 9500 is only a 30 amp do you know what that does in parallel I am no electrician but I have learned a lot during this process I priced a generac 22kw natural gas and that’s what I wanted but because my gas meter and power meter on 2 different sides it was gonna be very expensive I am hoping the parallel and the soft start will run my whole house or I am out money and will have to get the generac any hep from you or others will be a huge blessing and thank you for making this I learned a lot just watching
I have several videos in that series. It covers the soft start as well, and may answer your questions.
Two will certainly handle the air conditioner with the soft start, and if you’re very careful with your loads and turn off most of the stuff in the house you might be able to get away even with one generator and the soft start.
So I been in contact with micro air and getting the right unit for my 5 ton next question I am into this with a 9500 Predator and an electrician who set a 200amp transfer box but he installed a 30 amp interlock which is my fault he did what I said for my generator. Learning a lot here!!! Thanks again it’s getting expensive vs the 22kw generac whole house. so The question is I obviously need a generator that runs a 50amp plug or parallel and get another 950O or get another bigger inverter duromax makes a 16,000 50 amp or a Genmax 10.5k. I don’t understand the amps vs the watts I have run the equation 240/running watts etc so what’s efficient like I am at a point of frustration!!! If say you have a 30 amp outlet on a 9500Predator inverter if it has 32 amp draw will it trip or say a 50 amp on a 16,000 and it draws 53 amps will it trip?
Other youtubers have confirmed that the 30A 240v outlet on the generator is tied to the sync circuit, which means you don't really need the parallel cable kit. You can use the L14-30P connector that comes with each generator and some stranded 10/3, with ground, to make your own patch cables up to 50 feet each leg (between each generator and the combiner box). Only real thing to note however is that with the L14 connectors, the conductors will be exposed if not plugged in - dangerous if any of the other ends are connected to power, whereas the kit has shielded connectors.
For your setup, where the generators are right next to each other, the parallel kit is probably the least expensive option however.
This has come up a few times in the various comments.
Ignoring the suicide plug, and linking the generators together... but then you don't have a way to tap into the power unless you put a 50amp plug on the combiner box. If you're going to do that, you might as well just get the proper and safer parallel cables, you're building the rest of it anyway. Buying two 30amp plugs isn't going to be that much cheaper than the parallel cables. You're still going to need to extend them, and all that.
Additionally, if you use the 30 amp plugs on the generator panel, that is running through the breaker on the generator. If that were to switch off or trip, (or if your suicide plug disconnected) then the two generators will almost immediately begin to drift out of sync.
In that scenario, if you fail to shut the disconnected generator off, and start it again while running, and you were to just flip the breaker back on, or just plug back in the suicide plug, you would be joining a generator operating at a different frequency to your power line. (bad news and possible fireworks).
The parallel ports on the generators bypass the breaker and connects directly to the inverter, and the parallel cables fit in firmly and are harder to accidentally disconnect I think for that reason.
Also, the longer you make your extension cables, then at some point you will need to bump up the gauge of the cabling. So I'd be careful with 50' lengths and make sure you've got it planned out accordingly.
Great vid, I have 4 ac compressors I’ll need the soft start
Those are going to add up if they're all going at the same time.
Love your video, before parallel ,did you change to floating neutral before connecting to inlet box?
No real need to if it's temporary connection (is my understanding). Whole home generators usually do this as they're permanently connected. It's a somewhat debated topic, and generally up to the individual.
If you want to do that, I believe the ground connection is directly on the back of the main panel attached to the rear of the grounding post.
I believe you can also use the Honda EU7000is parallel kit as well.
If you want more flex you can use 6 AWG welding wire. It’s stranded pretty well.
You can power down one generator and should still work if you notice your loads are low, to save fuel right?
That kit might work, it would depend entirely if the spacing of the plugs matched exactly and if the internal banana plugs were the right width. I like that it has the meters and breakers built in. But wow are those cords short. Would definitely need to extend at least one of them (probably the shortest, so you can have a 'medium' and a 'long')
Yes, you can power down one of the pair if you wish. Note, never disconnect / reconnect while running, but turn completely off. On mine, the way I wired it, it's monitoring the full combined output of each leg, so, when running two, divide by 2 to know what each unit is producing.
The "goo" is called itcky-pik out in the field
My question with this has been regarding isochronous / lag settings for the generators. I have two predator 9500 inverter generators, and I need to make a parallel kit for it. The wiring is not an issue, but is there a switch I am missing on the generators? Or is it simply plug and play, and the inverters will synchronize on their own?
My impression is that when a unit starts up it will match the frequency of the power if it's present. There may be some kind of data communication, but I really don't think so. I've seen videos where people have mixed and matched 120V units in parallel from different manufacturers without issue.
I **believe** that is why when overloaded the power is cut vs there just being a reset switch, the engine must be completely shut off and then restarted in order to bring the power back. This allows the unit to re-sync with what power may still be present, vs. just turning on and combining two different frequencies of power into a line.
Great video Jason! I have a Duromax 9000ih (turned into floating neutral after disconnecting the bonding connection behind the control panel) dedicated exclusively to power feed the house in the event of any power loss. Power to the house is through a Reliance 50amp power inlet box. No transfer switch, instead I took the Interlock route and installed it at the main outside panel. I'll be ordering a Genmax 9000 soon, which I will be paralleling with my Duromax. My plan is to turn the Genmax into a floating neutral too. Both generators will be grounded at the main house panel. Now my question is, since both will be floating neutral generators, and there is no white neutral parallel connection in the Duromax, how would you handle the parallel wire connections on each generator? Duromax (two hot wires parallel connected / green and white disconnected) and on Genmax (two hot wires and white wire parallel connected / green disconnected)? Thank you again for the great videos!!!
That's my main concern / drawback with the Duromax is the lack of a dedicated neutral. Instead it has to be using the ground as the neutral. Now in generally the ground is bonded in the breaker to neutral, so this isn't the end of the world, but you have to remember that ground will be carrying all the unbalanced 120VAC return path, and it's exposed on a nice screw terminal. So don't let your fingers become an easier path, or get between them.
Does your 5-ton HVAC system use a TXV to regulate the refrigerant pressure? My 4-ton system has a TXV and an EasyStart installed but according to the company, I won't realize the full reduction in starting amps due to the TXV keeping residual head pressure on the compressor each time it kicks off. Increasing the SCPT delay time from 3 minutes to 8 minutes using the bluetooth app helped a bit though.
My single Honda EU7000is will run my whole house, except for the 4-ton HVAC. I also converted it to run on natural gas, propane or gasoline...so I don't have to worry about storing gasoline any longer.
My whole neighborhood is entirely electric, so unless I rent or buy a large propane tank (run the lines, etc. etc.), I'm stuck using gasoline.
I really don't know if I have a Thermal Expansion Valve, but I would guess that I do as the unit is relatively new and higher efficiency, and it's a heat pump. I was told by Micro-Air to expect the starting amps to be about the same as running amps with the soft start. However I too don't seem to get the full benefit, so I assume it's a similar situation.
Starting amps are reported in the app to be around 43.8A, where the running amps for just the compressor are reported to be 11.3A (Add in the fan and air handler and it's around 14A in total).
However the Locked Rotor Amps report 117A, and my amp meter reported around 81.5A max on starts. So it at a minimum, the starting amps were about cut in half, which allows the generator(s) to handle it. So I'll take it as a win.
@jasonwallace Thanks for bangin this out. Exactly what I was looking for and uber helpful. My question is how did you wire the two voltage monitors? I see they have a positive and negative terminal to power the meters, apart from the donut. Just wondering how you ran those jumpers to power the meters. Thx dude!
I have a few videos in this series. People requested a wiring diagram so I provided it in the other videos. Basically I wired the power for each meter to the common neutral. The hot wire for the meter's power each went to one of the legs of power. So meter 1 reads (is powered by) X and meter 2 reads (is powered by) Y.
This allows me to see the voltage of each leg vs. both meters just identically reading 240V.
This is the link to the whole series:
ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
@@Texas_DIY copy all, thanks a bunch man🙏🏽
Thanks for the video. I have purchased two of these generators and plan to do the same setup. My concern is the parallel wire setup.
First off, I cant find the kit you suggested in stock anywhere, so there is that hurdle. Second, the wires going to the parallel terminals inside are only 10 AWG. That size is only rated for 30 amps, so how is it able to push 63.3 amps like the bbq guy states in his comments?
I have more questions and also some ideas to share, I figured this comment should get the dialogue going first.
Thanks,
Matt
www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200777733_200777733
They seem to be in stock now.
The default kit assumes that you are using the built in socket on the generator to connect out, so it's just bringing in the additional power from the 2nd unit. So the wires themselves from the generator are only carrying what that generator is contributing.
In my kit, I'm not using the front panel, but rather taking power from each unit (~30amps from each) and joining them together in a box. Each set of wires are only carrying that ~30amps, because that's all the generator behind that wire can produce.
Once they join together with the other generator, and the pair of wires need to go into the 50amp socket, that's where I wanted the thicker gauge, because it's that combined feed that can get into the 50-60amp range.
1 generator:
X+N= 120v 30amps available
Y+N= 120v 30amps available
If you're only using 120v power, that means you have 60amps of combined 120v power to use as long as you pull no more than 30 from either X or Y. (so you could have different things spread out using up to 60amps in total, but you couldn't have 1 single device that pulls 60 amps, because the 120V has to come from either X or Y, and one leg can't go over 30a)
X+Y=240V (240V pulls equally from X and Y, and doesn't need the neutral, unless maybe the electronics in the device need a 120v feed, then it's uses the N for that small amount) So generally if you have a 240V stove, and it uses 20amps, it's pulling 20amps from BOTH X and Y equally.
So in the above example, you have 1 generator, you turn on your 20A stove, that means that you have 10amps remaining to use.
So you could choose to run a 10A 240V device, OR, that means you have 10A of 120V power available on both X and Y still remaining. So, you could potentially run (2) 10A 120V devices, IF each of those devices were getting their power from different legs.
Everything I just described, regarding the amps is doubled if you're running two generators in parallel. Same rules. Just each generator is supplying half the total power. So instead of 30A of 240V, you now have 60A of 240V available to work with when both units are operating together.
If two generators are running in parallel, and you pull 30Amps off the combined feed, then each generator is only providing 15Amps. If you pull 60Amps, you are now reaching the maximum output of the generators, as each is supplying 30A.
Make sense?
Awesome! I have to do this for my food truck! My thoughts were wiring them directly into a breaker panel. Thoughts?
You certainly could. That would save some cost vs. buying the cable that runs from the box to the inlet.
Hello again Jason! Thank you for the videos! Are your 9500s bonded neutral? And if so, did you have any problems hooking them up to your bonded main panel? Thank you, Mike in DFW
Neutral is bonded to the frame with these. Though the general consensus is that if you only hook them up on occasion (as you do with portable units) it's no biggie. Though a few people have removed the bonding.
I recall a UA-cam video where someone did it. I think it's on the rear of the front panel, where the threaded ground post passes through. On the back of the panel there are two terminals screwed on there, one of which is the frame ground that can simply be removed by unthreading the nut holding the terminal in place.
I've not bothered to remove mine, and it's been just fine.
Thank you!
Thanks for the info. I just learned about the easy start and my customers are wanting it and I am doing all the research I can. I am interested on the EATON inlet box with power quality meters. Where did you find that or did you add this yourself? Thanks
I purchased the meters on Amazon, and mounted them into the box. (Stepper bit to drill the holes). The links are in the video for the parallel kit. And the video covering the softstart has some before / after readings you may find useful.
@@Texas_DIY thank you. great job!
This is really cool... What would happen however if 1 generator shut down or ran out of fuel? Is there overload protection that would shut down the other Generator?
The parallel kit bypasses the breakers, so overloading a unit shuts off power (but not necessarily the generator). You have to shut the machine down completely, and then restart it. Upon restarting, the unit will sense the presence of the power from the other machine and sync to it. So that would bring everything back.
The kit just joins the wires from each, and feeds the combined set to the plug. So if one unit shuts off, you still have power, just half of the capacity.
If one were trying to conserve gas, and could run on less power, it would make sense to deliberately shut one unit off, and have the other on hand as a backup, or, to bring online if you needed to run additional appliances and such.
Thanks for creating this video, well done and very useful information! I think I can run our home on a Predator 9500 plus a Predator 3500. My question is, if I build a parallel kit, will it work to parallel the 9500 plus the 3500 for a 120/240V home electric panel?
The 3500 isn't a 240v unit. So I wouldn't suggest trying to parallel them together. I have no idea if it my sync with one leg and give you some extra capacity for that side of the power, or, if it would smoke them and bad things would happen. I wouldn't want to test it on my $2k generator... :-)
Part of what makes the 240v inverter generators so cool (Predator, Duramax, Honda) they make the same power as what you get fed in from the power company (actually slightly cleaner in my case). You don't have to do anything crazy, just feed it in (safely) and nothing in the home knows any different, and things just run normally.
No all parrell require exact same generators
I came across your video and I think you may have just solved a major problem for me. I have a RV with two 15000 AC units. I want to be able to run both AC units at the same time, and while they are running use anything I want in the RV. The electrical system is a 50 AMP system. Would the parallel kit you made work for me? Thanks in advance.
I would think so. Though unless you're going crazy with power use, you may be able to get away with one, combined with the soft start for the AC units. You'd have to meter them to see what the loads are. If you don't have a soft start, seriously, start there, it might solve all your problems much more cheaply.
This is the playlist of the full video series, the same company that makes the soft start unit I installed in one of the videos, specializes in RV setups as their primary business. ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Curious what gauge wire you used from your generator inlet box to the service panel. I’m struggling to understand how high of amperage do I need to protect for in case I have a surge of up to the full 19k watts from this predator combo
I had 6 gauge for the box hookup, and from the junction of the two 30amp feeds, to the 50amp plug. Pretty sure I used 8guage in the kit to the generators, but 10 would probably have been fine. The generator can push a bit more than 30amps, so it was kinda borderline between the two sizes. I opted for the "safer" choice.
@@Texas_DIY thank you. I’m just curious if you knew what the amperage limits of a 50 amp rv inlet/outlet/ generator cable can handle if it’s seeing 60 A? Was wondering if the generator cable or connection points got hit at All? What size circuit breaker are you using to backfeed? Is that 50 amp also? I’m just guessing but can’t we theoretically hit almost 80 A at a surge at the 19,000 W limit?
@Jason Wallace I love your videos. As I am a Harbor Freight addict. my only question is if your gonna spend 5k+ on 2 9500's why not not purchase a Generac 7039 20kw and call it a day?
They were less at the time. And even so, in my case we're all electric, so there isn't natural gas / propane. The cost of the backup generators from Generac, plus installation, was in the $10k range... and I'd still have to lease and install a propane tank, and pipe the gas from that to the generator. It would have been hugely expensive vs. the method I went with.
Lmk if you would be down to make me one. Predator needs to release a kit already.
Is it possible to parallel two inverter generators if they do not have the parallel output ports? I was looking at putting two Predator 8750 in parallel or something similar to save costs due to my house not needing as much power as yours. My house has a 3 ton AC unit which is my main goal of powering.
I wouldn't do it.
Now I have seen videos of people linking one parallel capable inverter generator to another one that does not have the parallel kit. They were smaller portable generators, and your mileage may vary. But they would have to be inverter generators, and I'd always suggest starting the non-parallel one first, so the parallel one can sync to the other in case the parallel one doesn't "know" how to sync.
But the bigger issue is safety. The non-parallel one won't have the parallel cable ports... so this means you'd be making a suicide plug to hook it in. (if the other generator is on, the exposed pins on your plug for the non-parallel model will be energized and very hazardous) And that would also mean you're running your funky parallel cable through a breaker on the generator that can trip and break the sync between the units. (the parallel connections bypass the breakers). All that is bad news... So I'd strongly suggest sticking to the models that are designed for it.
Commenting and subscribing, great video. Only wish I could see the internals, though totally understand you not wanting to pop that thing open and risk a mess of wires spilling out! Migrating my comment from the other video over here, do you think the soft start is necessary for two paralleled 9500s to run a 5-ton A/C unit?
There isn't really much to see inside it. Using those terminal blocks, each of the same colored wires get joined together. The amp meters need power, so they had small wires added to the dryer plug (one on each leg of power). And the little circle coil goes around what you want to measure. (in my case, the 6 gauge wire going to each leg of the dryer plug).
Regarding your question on the 5 ton AC unit... like with most answers regarding generators, I think the answer is, "It depends". Look on the housing of your compressor unit. You'll see a number designated by: LRA This is "Locked Rotor Amps", and (as I understand it) represents the maximum amps your unit can draw from a dead stop. There is also: RLA "Rated Load Amps" which is the maximum it should ever pull when running normally. (My LRA is 117A, and RLA is 21.8A) Note those are *maximums*, and your actual number should be lower. My clamp meter told me that MY max starting load (heat pump, scroll compressor) was 81.5A, (though it may be higher, the meter can only sample so quickly and the worst of the surge is very brief.)
The 9500 Generator can make 9500watts or 39.5A *max/surge* on each leg, so with a 240V AC, a brief surge of 39.5A can be handled, but normal running amperage of 7200watts or 30Amps. Before I had the soft start installed, I did try to start the AC on the 30A hookup, and it instantly popped the breaker. (understandably so with trying to pull 81.5A off something with a 30A breaker and a capacity max of 39.5A).
So let's say I didn't have the soft start, and, wanted to start the AC using two generators. Would it do it? Maybe... if I turned off EVERYTHING else in the house, and had the generators not set on eco mode so they were spun up and ready. My measured starting amps (81.5A), were almost exactly at the peak of the two units combined (79A). And if the compressor was in different conditions (maybe hotter day, maybe starting again soon after the previous start, so pressures weren't equalized, whatever) it's "allowed" within spec to get up to the LRA (which in my case is 117Amps) So... "sometimes, it could maybe do it"
But with the soft start, I was able to get it down to 41.5A starting (this is according to the Bluetooth connection on the softstart), and 11.3A running (normal) total (after fan and air handler) around 14A running. (I think people without heat pumps can achieve a much lower starting amps with these, very similar to the running amperage) With two generators, this allows me to run the AC, and keep the rest of the house going, including the 20A hot water heater.
Basically as long as we don't run too many appliances at the same time, we can operate relatively normally, but without the soft start, I don't think it would be happening.
@@Texas_DIY Thank you, Jason. Sounds like having the easy start, if not absolutely necessary, makes things much easier. So, went ahead and ordered one! I take it you installed your easy start on your own? The video install i watched seems pretty straightforward, but (as you've obviously figured out by now) I'm very novice and am debating whether to just pay a HVAC specialist to do it.
@@todd9959 The hard part isn't the physical work of doing it, it's knowing where to hook things up. The instructions try to be clear, but there are a lot of different ways AC units can be wired. My heat pump was one of the strange ones, two capacitors and some circuit boards in there. I sent a good photo of it to Micro-Air, and they replied back within hours with my photo, along with hand drawings on top of it showing exactly where to hook up the wires. So that made it much more simple. Even then I seriously considered getting an AC guy to do it before I just bit the bullet and decided to try.
Where you may run into problems, is that you need to have a specific (inexpensive) tool to properly crimp on the spade/lug connections to the wires. You may need to purchase that (and the spade connectors themselves) from your local hardware store or harbor freight. Typically you want to use the same types of connections that are already on there, that you can screw down on the existing connection points. My other issue was that I didn't have a good place to secure mine to the condenser, and ended up using some strong magnet hooks to stick it to the side of the housing. You may have to be a little creative, but it's not too crazy to get accomplished.
@@Texas_DIY Thank you again for all of the incredibly helpful advice, I've learned a lot during the "electrical wiring / generator 101" crash course over the last few months. I ended up purchasing the Micro-Air Easy Start for my 5-ton A/C unit (no heat pump). Was able to successfully hook it up myself after watching an UA-cam install video and studying the wiring diagram of my unit. Only took about 15 minutes once I had determined the plan of attack, so let that serve as inspiration to any other novices that might read this in the future (if I can install it, odds are you can too).
I don't have a handheld meter of any type, so no way to know what max starting amps was A/C was actually pulling pre-install, but the unit's nameplate LRA is 137 amps. The only source of realt-time data I have is the Easy Start, which is the bluetooth model. So I was able to monitor progress on the app as the Easy Start went through the initial (5-run) learning sequence, which showed around 62 max amps during the first run, and, by the fifth (and last) learning run, it had gone down to about 42 max amps.
Only problem is I guess I got greedy, because I decided to re-do the learning sequence to see if it might get a lower end result. To my luck, the result ended up being the opposite -- the final learning run for the second go-round was even higher, 52 amps. At 52 max starting amps, I'm disheartened because now I'm concerned whether my setup will even be able to start the A/C unit (and that's even if it were the ONLY thing running / drawing power from my home). Reason being, the Predators will be pushing power to my home through a 50 amp interlock system -- and, unless there's some intricacy I'm missing (which I hope is the case), my thinking was I'm screwed since that falls short of the 52 max amps needed to start the A/C.
Am I thinking about that correctly? Hoping you can speak from experience, as we have very similar setups based on your video: 5-ton A/C unit with Easy Start, a 50 amp interlock system, paralleled Predator 9500s. I would just go ahead and give it a test run myself, but still waiting on parts to build the parallel kit. Also, if you have a Easy Start model with bluetooth, would be very curious to know what it shows your max starting amps are (vs. what you're seeing on your parallel kit's amperage meters). Again, thank you so much for your time and guidance.
@@todd9959 Breakers (unless they're specifically designed to) don't typically insta-pop the moment amperage exceeds their rating. For example, typical starting AMPs for a compressor without a soft start can briefly be 80 or 100+, yet the actual breaker for the compressor on mine is rated at 50. They're designed to trip before wiring becomes hot enough to cause a problem, but not so much at an exact precise amperage. Somewhere I've seen a chart that estimates how long it takes a breaker to trip at X amperage at X temperature. In short the time to trip shortens the higher over the rating you go, but unless it's a dead short, or way way over, it's not an insta-trip.
Surge output on the Predators are 9500watts or around 39.5A, if you've got two and your using the parallel output which bypasses the generator breakers, then you can surge up to almost 80Amps, and run continually 60amps (is that ideal with a 50amp socket.. no... but there is some margin in these things, so when on generator power try to manage things as best you can, but don't panic if you hit 55 amps or something. (I used a 60amp breaker for my inlet, knowing that I can push 60 continuous from the units.
In short, I think that you should be just fine with the soft start.
I'd also suggest starting the learning again, and see what it comes up with. Maybe start it in the morning, so as the day heats up it's getting a sample of some different temp ranges.
Also, the surge readings off the bluetooth softstart seem to be about 10amps higher that what I get on my meter. I don't know which is more accurate... But I'd guess the softstarter... that thing is much more sophisticated than it looks... but a grain of salt there. If that's accurate, I guess that the peak is so brief, that my meter can't read it in time and catches part of the rising slope. Such a brief surge isn't usually going to be a major thing when it's brought back down so quickly.
Hey Jason!! How could I get something similar to a champion 4650? I need a true 240 to run a 240v appliance in a trailer. Do you have suggestions?
That particular unit is not a 240V generator. While I'm sure there are other models out there that meet your requirement, off the top of my head, I only know of (3).
BE$T:
Honda EU7000IS (Less AMPS than the others, but it's a Honda and will go forever... at more than twice the cost of the Predator)
Good:
Harbor Freight Predator 9500 (cheaper, gasoline only) or
DuroMax XP9000iH which is internally nearly identical to the Predator, but, adds auto choke combined with a nifty remote start / push start, and most of all, it's dual fuel. (For about ~$500 more)
This is the link to my playlist, I cover it just a tiny bit in the other videos: ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Thanks for these videos (Both Jasons). I keep seeing conflicting statements as to whether or not this will be true 240V. I have an electric pizza oven that is 240v and want to make sure before I ruin it. Also, do you happen to have any pics of the inside of the outlet box wiring. We can wire simple switches and household outlets, but don't want to get this wrong.
This is absolutely true 240VAC single phase power, exactly the same as what comes in from the power company in the US. (assuming you are using a generator that has 240V and it's set to 240V mode) The Predator 9500 has a switch on the front that flips between 120 and 240, (I see no reason to ever have it on the 120V setting)
Take a look at my other videos on this subject. The technical one covers how the outlets are wired, and what legs each are connected to. It also has a wiring diagram of how the box is put together. ua-cam.com/video/QBK47lWmQps/v-deo.html
I would not suggest adding switches to the box I made, there is little room and it will just complicate things, and if you're trying to switch 240, you'd need a double pole switch.
If you want to make a box with different plug outlets, do a google search for "GE Recreational Vehicle Power Outlet GE1LU502SS" it's larger, but has a 120V outlet and a 50amp with matching breakers to switch them on and off. It will make connections easier with the breaker and bus bar connections.
@@Texas_DIY Wonderful! Thanks so much. The powerhouse cable is now out of stock and unable to be purchased online so I guess we will be creating from scratch.
@@Texas_DIY Any reason to put a circuit breaker in the box like you used?
@@gretchengriffin4252 One could argue either way. In the case of my box, all the wires involved are suitably spec'd to handle that amperage. So if there is a dead short, the generators will (in theory) overload before the wires burn.
However if you were to use the GE box I suggested (assuming you want other additional outlets) now the rules change. That household outlet in the GE box is probably rated for ~15amps. But the source of the power can produce up to 80amps (over 60amps continuous) with two combined generators. So you have a problem there if there is no breaker involved.
If you were to have cords plugged in, and something shorted out, the more narrow gauge wire of those cords would be much more likely to catch fire and burn because there would be no breaker between the source of the higher capacity power and the lower capacity wiring. It needs a breaker to protect the wiring after the outlet from risk of fire. And in the case of my box, there wouldn't be one. But in the larger GE box, there is. And since they were at it, they went ahead and added a breaker for the 50amp plug as well. (which is really probably best practice anyway)
So should my box have a breaker? Yes... but in the case of my smaller box, I believe that it's safe enough for my purposes and the way I'll be using it.
In general, if you don't mind the extra size, that GE box is the probably really the way to go. Easier wiring (no need for the terminal blocks), more space so you can add the meters easily if you want, and the added safety of breakers to further protect things. Just be aware that the 120V outlet is going to have to pull power from either the X or Y leg of the 240v source. So you may opt to wire it unique to your situation, if you find you're pulling more power off X, put the extra outlet on Y or vice versa. So you can help balance things out.
Read manual, don’t look at Facebook friends
Hey Jason! Great video on these two generators. I about went with these two predators to power my 25A/240v concrete grinder but instead opted for the Ai-Power 7100 inverter generators. My question regarding your video is, do I need to build a kit like this, or could I just use the powerhouse parallel cable. I don’t need a 50amp plug, as the 30amp plug on the front of one of the generators will work for what I need to power, I just need to parallel the two so that I have enough running watts. The Ai-Power generator does not have a neutral spot for the white cable, but does have a neutral floating threaded post. Will I still be able to use the cable without plugging the neutral in, and just focus on using the ground wire. Thanks for any help!
Each generator should be able to make 30amps, so you don't really need a pair if that's all you plan to pull. Some generators are designed to link together such that the front panel of either one can handle the combined wattage of both. (A feeds into B, and the front panel of B provides the combined power of A+B).
These are not designed that way, and only have a 30a socket on the front. So if you linked them together and plugged into the front panel of A, the max it can output would be 30a, because that socket has a 30a breaker on it, and, I would assume the panel wiring internally is designed only to handle 30a. With these you're pulling the power through the parallel sockets from A and B, and combining them in the Parallel kit box with a 50A socket. So when you draw power from there, the power is flowing from both A and B, but neither A nor B ever have more than 30-ish amps drawn from either one.
I'd be a little sketched out using only the ground for neutral. Yes, it would work, they're bonded to neutral anyway. But that's potentially a lot of amps flow back through that ground post for unbalanced loads. I don't really like that being the only path back and being exposed at the same time.
@@Texas_DIY so I understand that each is their own, 30amp max. What I need is more wattage from both to power a 240v/30 amp concrete grinder. Each generator is 5700 running for the ones we have. I need around 7,200 running watts to run the grinder. So, I want to parallel the two grinders for more output. I don’t need a 50amp plug. I just need a 30amp 240v, which each generator has. So, if I parallel them with a cable, can I use one of the plugs on the generator and it pull the power from both, that’s I guess what I am needing to figure out
@@coryR524 Ah I see. Was thinking you had the predator generators. With your Ai-Power units, I guess it would depend on if the panels are wired to handle that much power on your existing generators, such that combining the output, and feeding it through a single unit can be tolerated. I would think it may be safer to make a parallel kit and use that as the outlet vs. the front face since the capacity you're talking about exceeds the output of any one single generator. Their combined output would make 47.5A, which is more than any of the front face plugs on the generators can handle... that tells me that if a parallel kit existed for these, it would probably be the type equipped with a plug vs. the kind that just links them together.
Does your concrete grinder never pull more than 30amps? Or is 30a normal, and it spikes higher when under heavy load? If it can consistently pull more than 30 if the motor is under strain, you may end up having problems if you try to route all the power through the front face of one of the generators and it's 30a breaker. So I don't know, it might work, might not... just depends on the actual electrical loads.
But if you combined them and put your socket at the parallel kit, it should work for sure as you'd have over 47 amps available, BUT, I'd suggest you build your parallel kit with a breaker on it, and go ahead an put a 50amp socket on there as well (why not? You may have some other application where it would be helpful). In the video I think I reference a larger box that has the sockets and breakers on it.
On my home system, the inlet is controlled with a breaker, so I don't really need one in the parallel kit. In the case you're describing, if you link them together using only the parallel kit and not front panel connections, you're bypassing the breakers and there really should be one on the setup.
Just curious on your Predators are the Parallel Connectors hot when the generator is started. On the Duromax XP9000iH the Parallel Connectors are not connected until the 3 pole master breaker is turned on.
I just don't see how the 2nd generator will see the first to sync without the master breakers are on on both generators
Everything is all wired directly together, so yes, when one generator is on, the plugs on the other end of the parallel cable are energized.
But they're designed to be safe and have a shroud around the metal part (it's a banana plug) so you can't touch them from the side, and then the tips of the banana plugs that are inside that shroud are covered with an insulator material so you can't touch them from the end. So there isn't any way to accidentally contact the energized parts. (not a suicide plug)
On the Duromax parallel kit, are you saying the breaker disconnects the two sets of plugs from each other? I would expect it to break the connection between both the parallel plugs and the **outlet**, but not from between the parallel plugs (Side A to Side B). Without that, if the two generators are "seeing each other" for the first time when the breaker is thrown... I don't see how the generators could synchronize with each other without doing really weird / bad things to the power of whatever devices may already be connected.
@@Texas_DIY The parallel jacks on the front of the XP9000iH are dead until the master breaker is on. To work properly when you start the generators the master breaker should be on on both of the generators. Check out the email I just got from Duromax.
Hello
To clarify the generator is a bonded neutral and that will mean that the neutral wire is connected to the ground point (or generator frame itself), and because of this you can't bring the generator neutral to the panel due to the generator GFCI being tied to the ground as well, so you'd have 2 grounding points and the GFCI would keep tripping interrupting the power output. The only way that the parallel kit would function with a bonded neutral generator is to avoid using the neutral, and running a separate wire from ground point directly to make a separate neutral wire (or ground wire) that is connecting to the 3 pole transfer switch. Please note that you can't use an interlock kit for a bonded neutral generator because you only will have 2 poles, and you'll need 3 poles to switch the home neutral over to the generator neutral/ground. The ground/neutral wire leading from the generator ground point will carry current just like a neutral to complete the circuit, but since the wire is bonded to a grounding point it'll still be protected with ground. The outlets at your home will also still be grounded to the home grounding system separately as well, and will still break the circuit in the event of a short. The generators will automatically sync with each other just by connecting the generators through the panel, and if manually doing the operation they can start in either order. If your connecting an automatic transfer switch to the parallel kit, and are connected for auto starting through the ATS outlet; then the generator connected using the ATS outlet will start first and communicate to the other generator to start up automatically through the parallel kit.
Thank you,
Duromax
Support Team
Still no mention of the parallel jacks being off until you turn on the master breaker/
I'm not quite clear on how some parallel kits have a neutral while others don't. This of course does, but for the Honda and Champion kit there is not. Just curious if you had any input on that. Thanks!
If they're 240V units, the only possibility I can think of is that they're using the ground as a neutral as well (which makes sense as neutral is usually bonded to ground). However that gives me the heebie jeebies because that lead is fully exposed. As long as it stays connected, you'd probably be fine touching it, but if you end up between the ground and that lead, it would be "unpleasant" as any imbalance between the two hot legs, would then be passing through you.
I'm in Asia and the parallel kit for a Greenfield 220v-240v inverter generator is just two wires, not even a ground and certainly no neutral.
Just a quick question on your output power. On my predator 9500 I can get 32 amps across the 240volt legs and 30 amps per side on the 120volts legs. Im getting the full 60 plus rated amps when I use both 120 legs. Iv got everything balanced pretty good. I don't have any 240 volt devices in the house. It seems with the parallel kit you should be able to get 63 amps across the 240 legs and 60 amps on each 120 volt legs for a total of 120 amps. 2 Predator 9500s (15200watts continues). Loved your video, well done.
I would think that seems about right. And if you do end up with 240V stuff, you can power that as well.
Just to confirm, with 2 in parallel, I can power about 120A. If I shut one off while both are connected in parallel, I can power about 60A? Thx
You spliced in 8Guage Wires to the 10 Gauge wire from the Westinghouse parallel kit. Why is it necessary to use a larger gauge than is in the parallel kit itself? Most Ampacity charts I can find show 10 Gauge is sufficient provided runs are less than 7 feet. Are you upping it out of an abundance of caution or is there another reason I am unaware of.
The parallel kit I hacked apart is designed to join one generator to another, at which point, the combined power is drawn from the *front panel* of one of the two units. Therefore, the wiring on the kit never handles the combined amperage (never more than one generator can provide).
In my case, once you join the two together and splice in a box between them to tap the output from there, that combined output is now twice the amperage as any one of the two generators could produce. (yet each side is only carrying what the generator it's connected to can produce)
The kit's wiring that could handle 30-40amps, isn't made to handle 60-80amps, so once they come together, and you are drawing the output from that point, the wiring needs to be beefed up to handle it. (and I was erring on the side of safety)
Is their any way you can draw and post the sketch of inside the box since you dont want to open the box and show inside ?
I'm working on additional videos covering the way I did the inlet to the house, the generator itself, the softstart, and the quality of the power it makes. I'll include a sketch in one of those. Really though there truly isn't much to it. Each wired is just joined to the matching color, and from each of those unions, a single wire goes to the dryer plug.
For the meters, they need 120vac, so you use a small wire for one to go to neutral (white) and one to one of the hot legs (so one unit got white/black and the other was connected to white/red). Lastly the little circle part (the coil) goes around the wire that you want to monitor the amperage, so one went around the black going into the dryer plug, and the other's went around the red wire going to the dryer plug. The coils need to be after the union from the two generators so you're measuring the combined amperage, and not just the contribution of one.
I've posted a general technical video about the generators, and included a basic wiring diagram sketch of the inside of the parallel kit.
Hi Jason I was going to comment another question about the neutral missing on the Duromax XP9000iH and also on there parallel box but my earlier post is missing. Just curious Does this happen a lot.
Thanks
Rob
Thanks Jason
Not sure. I cleaned up what looked like some duplicate posts, maybe I zapped yours on accident, if so, sorry.
I like the parallel kit build. I do have to ask though. It appears your Predator 9500 has an oil drain tube. Is this something you added? I just purchased the same model (no drain tube) and looking for a clean method of draining the oil. Thanks!
It's a fill tube that came with it. Basically a funnel with a long flexible tube. It does get the oil where it needs to go... and then slowly makes a mess after you pack it away. (zip lock bags for it)
No good for draining it, just filling. On the bottom there is a rubber grommet you remove so when you drain the oil it falls onto the plastic housing, and drains through the hole. (I have an oil pump that is usually less messy for changing oil)
@@Texas_DIY Thanks for the reply!
I thought maybe you had added a quick drain valve with a tube on it. I just used the factory method for draining as you stated above over the weekend. I didn't have any mess draining. Filling leaves a bit to be desired. I bought an oil filler that screws onto a quart bottle of oil with a clear smooth plastic tube. It worked better.
Not a fan of the factory corrugated tube on the funnel that collects oil in the bottoms of the ridges for future mess as you mentioned.
I'm especially curious why you think 6ga wire is necessary? You have the wires coming from each generator at 30A and they look to be only 12ga, possibly 10ga at most. The current isn't doubled until you make the connection at the terminal block and from there to the outlet must be only 3 or 4 inches. I looked at a 15 foot 50A extension cord which was 6ga, but I think 8ga for that length would be more than adequate. If I'm wrong, so be it, but just posing the question....
I used 8g for the connections to the generator (expecting to handle a bit over ~30a continuous with some brief possible surges)
Once the wires came together and "joined forces" I switched to 6g wire, that is rated for the 50-60a it might be carrying to make the connection from the terminal block to the dryer plug.
I probably did not have to do this part, and could have stuck with the 8g wire. Cable length plays into the required gauge... and this particular length was only a few inches. But I figured I'd err on the safe side, and not risk anything getting hot inside that box.
Considering all this is going into a wooden enclosure, next to two gasoline power machines with ~7 gallon gas tanks positioned above them that will largely run unattended... and all that is under the wood awning of my back porch.... fire = very very bad so everything I did is slightly over built. :-)
Before I can really comment. I need to know when you are running on this setup and really using the house, what amp loads are you seeing on each leg? The ones I could see in this video (I know you were just testing for the video) were low.
The amps on each leg depend on what is running in the house. Keep in mind that reading is the combined amps, whatever it displays is divided in half to represent the load on each generator.
On a hot summer day, normal lights and computers running, with the the electric how water heater on and the AC running it's around 44amp on one leg and 38.4 on the other average. (not counting surges)
If I turn on any appliances that will of course add to it:
Range: one large burner 10amps, one small burner 5.8a, oven 11.2amps (of 220 off each leg)
Clothes washer is pretty light at around 5.65 amps (one leg)
Toaster oven / Air Fryer 14.9amps (one leg)
The clothes dryer pulls a solid 25+ amps of 220 (both legs) and you can REALLY feel that one when it kicks in.
Basically with the AC soft start, if I really carefully meter things, I could probably get away with one generator. But if you start needing any appliances, it will quickly exceed the capacity of one.
Sorry to keep bothering you. I just wanted to get your opinion on this. I haven't heard back from duromax and I just don't won't to damage either generator. This is what I sent them.
Since the parallel wires are switched at the 3 pole master breaker on the XP9000iH, what is the procedure for connecting both generators to work in parallel as far as what order to start them so they are synced. Since the parallel connectors are off untill the 3 pole master breaker on the XP9000iH is switched on, How can the second XP9000iH detect the master. Just curious.
I just don’t want to burn anything up. Please do you have anything you could help me with regarding the starting of the XP9000iHs in parallel. Some folks are saying it doesn’t matter the order there turned on, but most other manufactures do have a specific order.
Thanks for your help
On the Duromax parallel kit, are you saying the breaker disconnects the two sets of plugs from each other? I would expect it to break the connection between both the parallel plugs and the **outlet**, but not from between the parallel plugs (Side A to Side B). Without that, if the two generators are running and only "seeing each other" for the first time when the breaker is thrown, I don't see how the generators could synchronize with each other without doing really weird / bad things to the power of whatever devices may already be connected.
And if that breaker were to trip on the parallel kit, then the generators wouldn't be able to "see" each other any more, and the frequencies would begin to drift out of sync. (just like two stop watches started at the same time don't tend remain in sync for more than a few moments) which (in my mind) would be bad if you were to flip the breaker back on, and introduce two different (out of sync) frequencies of power into your home.
I'd double check, not from the outlet, but from only the parallel cables, that the red cable of side "A", and the red cable of side "B", and the black of side "A" and black of side "B" (again, ignoring the outlet) and see if those are always linked together by color regardless of the breaker.
If they're not, maybe duromax has some kind of way of instantly resyncing when another power frequency is detected or perhaps the inverters can adapt. I don't know, but I'd be wary of having both units on, and then connecting them after they're running (by throwing the breaker).
I've speculated that this is the reason that when overloaded the inverter just shuts off, and there isn't a reset button. Instead you have to completely power down the generator, and restart it. My speculation is that this is to ensure it can re-synchronize to the power that is still present.
If it were me, I would turn on generator "A", make sure the breaker is on so "B" is receiving the power from "A" via the parallel kit... then start unit "B". "B" will have voltage present when it starts, and sync to that.
If the breaker in the parallel kit truly does disconnect not just the outlet, but also the units from each other, then if that breaker ever turned off, I'd make sure I shut down one of the generators before turning the breaker back on again, and then powering on the remaining unit only once it was "sensing" the power from the other.
Hi I was wondering what gauge wire did you use for the AC Voltage Current Display Meter thank you
The voltage measurement requires virtually no current.
It’s just reading voltage and running the display. No significant load what so ever.
So pretty much any gauge wire will work. I just used whatever insulated wire I had on hand which was a small single solid core copper wire.
Ok thanks
Would it be possible to use the 30 amp four prong twist lock outlets instead of the powerhorse parallel kit? These kits are backorder and not coming in anytime soon according to northern tool.
**Technically**, I don't see why it wouldn't work, but, it would very risky and dangerous for reasons you might not think of... here is my warning about doing so:
First off: There is a comment in the history of the video from a user "B F" where he implies that would be a better method. Only I think he was suggesting each 30amp feed would go into the main circuit breaker, with no parallel "kit", the logic being more available amperage from the pair. I went into a bit of a wall of text regarding the pitfalls of doing so. But let's say it was a parallel kit instead.
So instead of direct feeding it into the home from the 30amp plugs (very bad idea) you instead made a parallel kit where each 30amp plug is joined together in a box with the 50amp female dryer plug. Basically, just like mine, but with 30amp male plugs on the ends vs. the parallel kit connection.
Danger 1: As soon as you energized one side with a generator connected and running, the exposed male plugs on the other cable would also be energized with 240VAC. (so, suicide plug ) This also means if one plug were to fall out, get removed, knocked out, whatever, those falling exposed metal plugs are energized.
Danger 2: And this one is the doozy that most people probably wouldn't consider... the power of each 30 amp socket is passed through a breaker on the front panel of the generator whereas the parallel ports are a direct connection to the inverter, this is really important, and I believe it's wired that way for a very good reason.
If one generator of the pair is disconnected from the circuit (say breaker trips on either front panel, or one of the plugs is removed or falls out) ***then the generators will no longer be synchronized***. Those two machines have to stay perfectly in sync to an accuracy of 1/60th of a second. Meaning just like two clocks that you turned on at the same time will not remain perfectly sync'd for more than a few moments, almost immediately the two units (now running independently) will probably drift out of frequency sync.
So if for example, the plug fell out and you put it back, or if the breaker tripped and you reset it... this would probably do **spectacularly bad** things to the inverters and, to the sensitive electronic equipment in your home. As your power would be composed of two different frequencies at the same time.
I believe this is why they wire the parallel kit directly to the inverter via the specialized ports, making it hard to accidentally disconnect them (firm fit, and no breakers to potentially interrupt the circuit), and, why if one of these generators ends up overloaded, it forces you to completely shut it off the machine and restart it, (there is no reset button).
By making you completely restart the machine, it forces an overloaded unit, (that would now be out of sync) to be started from scratch, allowing it to re-synchronize with a still operating generator on the circuit, and not get all explode-y.
So yes... you could do that, and I don't see why they wouldn't initially synchronize if they were both plugged in, and the circuit breakers on when they started. But the plugs would be dangerous, and, you'd be setting yourself up for a situation where extraordinarily bad things could happen, if you or someone else made one single mistake when operating them. Proceed with extreme caution.
To add: I'm basing my warning on my understanding of how these things work, and what I've observed on how they're wired. I have no official word or documentation regarding this. (and before I got these, and better understood how they worked, I too assumed I could just join them via the 30-amp plugs since I had no idea where to purchase the parallel plugs from)
There MAY be some kind of safety circuit or function in place to prevent fireworks. (Hypothetically someone could always still unplug the parallel kit and plug it back in while the units are running). But to be honest, I'm not inclined to test the theory on mine and risk damaging the inverters, even if they aren't connected to my home at the time.
If anyone else want to test the theory on their $4000 worth of generators, I'd love to hear what happens. :-)
@@Texas_DIY thanks for your help. Have you ever seen the banana plugs anywhere? All I've been able to find are the audio types. The kit you have isn't going to be available until late November. I called norther tool yesterday and covid has everything on delay for them.
Hi, a single phase house has an L1 and an L2, each being 120V. If you had 2 generators (the little suitcase inverter types), is there a way to power up the main panel, with L1 being fed from one generator, and L2 being fed from the other generator? Keep in mind they'd be sharing the neutral in this case. The 2 generators would need to be kept synchronized 180 degrees out of phase. Is there a way to set up such a system?
I understand exactly what you're describing. I've thought about that possibility for some time before going the direction that I did. But couldn't figure out how to make that work. The 120V generators as far as I'm aware aren't designed to do that. MAYBE if there was voltage present for them to sync to in advance on each leg, but I don't think there would be any mechanism to KEEP them in sync once the original voltage signal dropped out, because the pair would only be sharing a ground/neutral. Like two stopwatches started at the same time, in a few moments they would be out of phase with each other. And that would be very... bad... for any 220V appliances.
I recall a few years ago at one point, someone designed some kind of circuit (it was a youtube video) that tricked the generators into doing that, but I don't think it was anything safe enough to operate real appliances with. Maybe this device had some kind of isolated circuit that leaked a bit of inverted AC current, to the other leg to keep/maintain the sync, I'm not sure.
Basically, as far as I'm aware, the units really need to be matched in capacity, and both be 240VAC.
@@Texas_DIY Appreciate the reply. I think I saw that video with the oscilloscope showing the waveforms. Maybe it needs a signal generator making 60 Hz and an inverted waveform that each unit can sync to. Maybe a half-wave rectifier off the master that can derive a slave sync signal.
How many amps total will this produce?
Like your set up but for that kind of money you could consider a whole house generator. I had a 16 kw generac put in for $6500.00 and it makes power outages a non issue except fuel burn
If you managed to walk away with that much spent in total, yeah, that makes it a harder choice. The power won't be as clean, but automating it would be nice. From what I was able to price though, the $6500 is just the base unit, after installation, and such, it seems to usually be much closer to the $10k mark. Particularly in my case where I would have needed to lease, install, and trench/pipe a propane source to run it.
@@Texas_DIY Lowe’s wanted about $9000.00 but a local guy did it much cheaper. So it pays to look around or I just got real lucky.and we have natural gas already hooked up so didn’t need propane tank
In my pov having only one generator is problematic if there is a failure with 2 generators in daisy chain you can work in "degraded mode" if one is out of service ... i am agree with Jason W the price for generac is very expensive ...
Looking at the HF Website the pictures have the white connection removed... DYK if they removed the parallel capability of this?
That is weird they changed it again. The parallel ports are still there, so I'm guessing they're just using the ground for the neutral. (will make the future parallel kit cheaper to produce). I don't like that, because that neutral carries any imbalance in power between the two legs, so there is some hazard there if one were to unscrew the ground while things were running.
The instruction manual on the site still has the neutral port indicated. Who knows what they're doing.
@@Texas_DIY FYI I bought 2 and they do have the White connector!
4 Can I get 120v AND 240v out of both the connectors on the XP9000iH-PK parallel kit. or does it have to be 240v only. The connector on the left is a L6-30R which has 3 connections, X and Y Hot and a Ground,The Connector on the right is a 14-50R which has 4 connections, X and Y Hot and a Neutral and a Ground. It seems that the L6-30R could also have 120 volts on each X andY legs to ground since the
Yeah, Duromax seems to be using the ground also as the neutral. I'm not a fan of it, particularly as the ground is an exposed terminal... but as long as you keep it secure and don't get your body between the cable and the terminal, I would think you should be fine. 240v will just use X, Y. But 120V stuff will need the split ground/neutral as the return path... so it will be carrying juice. I'd be sure to follow the best practices it describes in the instructions.
My question is; can you use the parallel port to make one plug? The 9500 will run my whole house minus the the A/C. So I don't need to parallel, just need 50 amp plug.
If you are good with 30A, you can easily adapt the 4 pin 30 amp socket to a 50. If you need that bit of extra wattage, you could do that from the parallel ports, I don't see why it wouldn't work.
1 Hi Jason do I have a Very interesting question for you about using 2 Duromax XP9000iH in parallel with the XP9000iH-PK parallel box. Could you give me your thoughts on what you think about the way Duromax is doing there parallel box the xp9000ih-pk. with 2 xp9000ih generators. On the front panel there is no neutral connection only two hots and the ground which neutral is bonded to the frame. On parallel box there's no neutral wire at all and on the 50a connector on the parallel box the neutral is not even connected to the ground internally. On the parallel box the wording over the 4 wire 50a connector and the 3 wire 30 connector say 240v. not 120/240 like the front panel on the generator. All of this this just seems odd to me. Thanks for any help
It looks like they're using a L6-30R on the left socket (search for that and you can see how it's wired). X,Y,G. Since ground is generally bonded to neutral, you can pull power off either leg and treat the ground as the neutral. Probably intended more as a 240V source. While the right hand socket will have X,Y,"N",G... But since the whole parallel kit doesn't have a neutral anyway, it's all pretty much the same thing, as the ground cable is serving as the neutral/ground and taking any of the imbalance between the two legs.
I do like that the Predator includes the Neutral. That way the exposed ground post/terminal doesn't sketch me out so bad. But at the end of the day, it's probably not a major thing. Just make sure the ground is secure on the Duromax, and don't mess with it while it's running. Any 120V devices, are using that as the return path, so there will be current flowing through it.
I do not understand too much the 63.3 amp 1 phase that is mentioned in the user manual.
I believe that number is if you are just using the generator for 120v power (but the generator is still in 240v mode)... X(hot)+N(neutral) = 120vac AND SEPARATELY Y+N=120vac, then you should be able to obtain 31.7 from each leg, for a total of 63.4amps of 120vac power.
240vac loads pull equally from each side (x+y=240v 31.7total)
For example say that I have (1) generator, and my 240vac stove uses 20amps, since 220v devices use power equal from both X and Y, that leaves 11.7amps of 120vac on X, and 11.7amps of 120vac on Y for household items.
So If I need to turn on a toaster that needs 120v 10a, and a computer that needs 120v 10a, I would need to make sure that each device is pulling power from a different breaker, that that each breaker is not on the same side of power. (I need one that is on X+N and one that is on Y+N in my breaker box). If I did that, it would leave 1.7a remaining on x and 1.7a remaining on Y.
If they both ask for power from the same breaker, or from breakers that get their power from only X or only Y, then it will be (11.7 - 20= -8.3 (8.3a too much for one side)
It seems to me that these generators should be able to support an 80 Amp breaker. Have you given any thoughts into a way of wiring it up to actually get the full capabilities of these two generators, rather than limiting it to 40 amps continuous / 50 amps for short duration loads per the 80% rule with a NEMA 14-50 outlet?
I ended up putting a 60amp breaker on my inlet for basically that idea. But I didn't want to go too oversized, because the inlet plug itself is still rated for 50amps. If I had a breaker that would allow much larger sustained amperage, it could cause a major issue at the inlet if that were sustained. And I haven't found any really common / standardized inlets that are rated for over 50amps. Obviously they do exist, but they seem to quickly get into expensive proprietary stuff once you go past 50amps.
what are the 10 awg pins that typically tie the generators together? i want to make my own cable.
I think they are standard bananna plugs, but they're in a shroud to keep them from being touched, and the ends are dipped in a insulating material so you can touch the inside with your finger. Honestly, I'd suggest buying and modifying the Powerhorse cable. It's just about perfect, and much safer (and probably cheaper) than making your own.
@@Texas_DIY i have a small awg parallel set. Also a parallel kit for a honda EU7000IS part number 08E93-Z37-000AH
That does have 10awg wire but it also has something onvthe end of it that doesnt at all match up. I am an Electrical technician and your effort and your discussion deserves kudos.
It did motivate me to buy the 9500. Now i am trying to get my son to buy one.
Do you have to have a meter on each hot line or can you run 2 hot lines on 1 meter?
The two meters measuring the voltage, one meter for each leg of the 120V. And the coil for each is around the combined output of each leg. So the cable that goes from the junction of the pair into the dryer plug is where the coil is positioned.
@@Texas_DIY I understand that. My question is could you run both hot wires through on CT and have it read 240?
I have a question.. I'm looking at buying a predator 9500. I also have a predator 4550 inverter generator. The 9500 has a 3 port parallel and the 4550 on has a 2 port. I'm looking for the best suggestion on where to grab my neutral from on the 4550.
You've got a 120V generator. The 9500 is a 240V generator. The two can't really link up together. The 9500 makes two legs of power X and Y, each with 120V to neutral, or, 240V to each other. The 4500 just makes a X and Neutral (no Y leg). So they don't really mate up.
If you were willing to risk it, it would be interesting to see if it the two would sync to each other, giving you a lot more output on one leg (either X or Y)... but that's a lot of $$$ to pony up and put at high risk just to "see what happens".
@Texas_DIY I just decided to buy a second 4550's linked together with a running watt of 3560 should give ma a total of 7300 running watt which is only 300 running watt less than the 9500 at 7400. Which should serve me fine. And offer just about as much operating power. And give me the 2 legs you are speaking of
Do u make these and sell them ??
What kind of run time do you get, or how much fuel do you burn per hour running your house?
With the inverter generators, fuel is pretty directly tied to energy use. They'll throttle up and down as needed to accommodate the loads. I don't have a firm feel for the usage, apart from they'll easily go all day. Harbor Freight advertises 18.5hrs on a 6.8galon tank @25% load... I'd say I was seeing something similar. In running both, in eco mode (where the throttle is allowed to vary) the load is divided in half between the two units, so it's not too hard to stay in a happy 25% or less range with the occasional surge.
@@Texas_DIY Great thank you for the response. So most parallel kits say you shouldn't run the genset in Eco mode but you're not seeing this issue, even with your 5 Ton AC connected?
I greatly appreciate the time and effort you put in to this and helping people. Living in S Florida I am trying to figure out how much gas I need to have on hand for 3/4 days without power or access to fuel.
I've seen zero issue at all running them in eco mode. It's one of the key features I love about them that allows for a much longer run time and gas savings. I do like to keep them out of eco mode when I initially switch over, the home onto them, that way they're already spun up, but even then, it doesn't seem to hit them too hard.
Can 4 run together on parallel converter, or Parallel 2 and parallel another 2 then tie them together for total backup 100 amps@ 240v ???
I would imagine that you could, however it would be best to simply wire them all together, similar to how I did mine (just with two more). You would need to start them one at a time, but I would think it would work.
@@Texas_DIY the power horse cable you cut are those AWG 8 or did you upsize wire from the Banana plug ends?
how you hook the cables same colors together,,,,
There are insulated terminal blocks I used for it. They are not cheap at a bit over $20 each. This is the full video playlist where it's covered:
ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Will this work on regular generators (non-inverter)? I have a predator 4k and want to purchase another one to parallel with.
Noooooo. It would probably make a great light show though.
To parallel two generators together they really must be inverter units designed for that. Some industrial portable generators are able to be carefully sync'd, but they're designed with adjustments and meters to do so.... and that's way way beyond the scope of any consumer portable units.
@@Texas_DIY thanks, guess I need to brush up on what is an inverter and what is not and how they function.
The videos in this series kinda cover it. But basically an inverter converts DC to AC. Have you ever used or seen the inverters you plug into a cigarett lighter socket in your car, and it gives you an electrical outlet? It's the same idea, just scaled up quite a bit.
A normal generator makes AC power, the frequency of which is dependent on the speed of the engine (how fast/frequently the magnets pass the copper coils). Inverter generators however are wired to make very high frequency AC, that is converted to DC, so the inverter can make use of the power even if the engine is running slowly. That DC power is used by the inverter to make 240VAC at 60HZ (again, regardless of the engine speed). While some energy is lost in the AC to DC to AC conversion, you usually end up saving quite a bit overall by allowing the engine to only need to run faster under heavier loads. So fuel use is more proportional to power use/need.
Since the power being output from the generator is created electronically (not mechanically with whatever the engine is doing, like with a traditional generator), it has the ability when starting up, to "listen" and see if power is already present, if it detects 240VAC 60HZ, the inverter will match that frequency, and just contribute to it. This is how you can double your output, by teaming two inverter generators together.
A traditional generator will have it's frequency of power influenced by loads and the speed of the engine (take a look at the video I made where I compare the power quality between a normal generator and an inverter generator) So adding an inverter generator to a traditional one, would probably not work well, because while the traditional generator's power moves around and changes, the inverter is solid and consistent... and probably unwilling to constantly adapt much once it's locked into the original frequency. This means that whenever a load hits, your power would end up with two different frequencies at the same time as the traditional generator sags, but the inverter generator maintains the same frequency. This would probably result in very bad things happening to your home's electronics, and probably the generator(s) as well.
Is there any limit to how many of these you can parallel (assuming the wires can handle the current)? For example, if I find that 2 won't handle everything, can I just keep adding units until my electrical demand is satisfied? It would seem that any slave units would just match the frequency of the system.
I don't know the fundamental design of these things... if there is any sort of actual communication happening, or if they simply match the frequency of the power that is present when starting. (I assume the latter).
So if that assumption is correct, then I don't see why you couldn't have more than two in a set. Just start them in sequence.
With more than two though, you quickly get into amperage territory that is well beyond what most inlet socket/plugs are designed for, and into hard wiring into a breaker territory. Be careful.
How many hours do you have on those generators?
About 35-40hrs on one, and less than 30 on the other. I need to figure out an enclosure solution at this point, and finish the break-in of the 2nd unit.
Why not just wire the 10 gauge wire from the Westinghouse parallel cable directly to the back of the plug?
The terminals on the dryer plug aren't large enough to take two heavy cables going into them. Needed the terminal blocks to solidly bond each of the connections together.
Here's a potentially dumb question. Has anybody tried hooking up the PH cable on the Predators as it's meant to be hooked up on the Powerhorse generators? I've probably missed it, but I haven't seen that possibility addressed anywhere.
The PH generators are designed to be linked together like that. They are equipped with a high amperage socket and the internal wiring to accommodate that. Such that the front panel of one can handle the combined capacity of two units.
The predator generators are equipped with a 30 amp socket. So using the PH stock cable would link them together, and double the capacity… but you would be still be limited by the 30A socket and the 30A breaker on any one generator.
That’s why the cables combine into a higher amp socket, and feed into an inlet. So you are able to achieve double the capacity that any one generator would be capable of normally.
I wish they would have came out with 50amp plug on these.
Me too, but I get it. The units are not capable of producing 50amps alone, and if you paralleled another one in, I don't think the internal wiring is designed for that much amperage such that you could use one unit in place of the parallel kit.
How did you install the amp meters?
There are other videos in the series. In one of the videos I show the wiring diagram. Not much to it. Each meter has a coil that you poke through the wire to be AMP monitored... and it needs power... so two wires. One to a Hot (either X or Y) and the other wire to the neutral.
ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
I need to add two wires to the meter then plug them into to not on the 50 amp plug?
How much did it cost you to make this? And would you be willing to make and sell these?
I think I have around $240 in parts in it, in order to make it. Those terminal blocks at over $20 each were a price killer and the wire was nuts... in addition to the cost of the box, meters, and the original parallel kit I modified.
Since the Power horse kits seem to be MIA, I'd have to come up with a different plug solution. Probably design and 3D print something out of a heat resistant plastic and use banana plugs inside it. And I'd likley opt for the more expensive and slightly larger "GE Recreational Vehicle Power Outlet GE1LU502SS" box with more room and a built-in breaker.
I'm not sure anyone would want to buy them at the price I'd have to sell them for (assuming I could figure out the parallel plug issue). The parts alone would be more than the cost of the Honda kit. (part# 08E93-Z37-001AH). And then there is the potential liability if my hand crafted creation burned someone's house down. Not sure it's something I should get into.
I'm really curious if the Honda one would fit the Predator's parallel plugs. It would need a cable extended, but would be a great starting point otherwise.
@@Texas_DIY thank you for the info.
Think you can make me one?
What is the running amps combined ?
Around 60amps, continuous running. ~30a from each side.
@@Texas_DIY so if you bump your breaker, wires, and inlet box to 60 you would get more power if needed. Btw I am thinking about dropping a main wire from the 50 or 60 amp breaker(whichever I choose) and tapping two 30 amp twist lock inlet boxes to that . Then make two cords one for each machine. The cords will be female so there no shock risk and the plugs are twist lock not attached to the machine so vibration is not a factor.
@@Texas_DIY btw thanks for the video it's awesome
Just saw this... be careful with that plan, it's going to complicate things, and potentially be very dangerous.
The generators (if being teamed together) really need to run from the dedicated parallel ports. Those ports bypass the breakers. If you team them via the 30amp ports... and the cord comes unplugged, or the breakers trip, that will allow the generators to drift out of sync. If you reconnected them, or flipped the breaker back on you'd have two different frequencies of power hit your home at once. (they have to stay accurate to 1/60th of a second, think of it like starting two stop watches at the same time... how long do they stay sync'd?)
I believe this is why when a generator becomes overloaded, there isn't a reset button. You have to shut the engine down, and restart it from scratch. (This is so it can re-sync to the power, and not suddenly inject another competing frequency of power into the line)
Also if you make two inlets, you now need to figure out some interlock system that won't allow a scenario where the male pins in the inlet are hot, and, the main breaker for the incoming line power is off. As soon as you turn on either of your inlet breakers, the pins will be energized if the line power is one, or, if another generator was powered on. See what I'm saying? It would be pretty easy to make those pins hot, or, to back feed power to the power company... if you didn't do everything exactly right every time.
Also, you're back to having those plugs come loose, if they do, generators are now out of sync.
The parallel kit bypasses all that, and combines them using the parallel ports (that are harder to accidentally remove, and won't have a breaker interrupt). From there, you have the combined power that goes into a single inlet, that can have an interlock applied to it for preventing back feeding, and preventing energizing of the male inlet pins if power is on.
With two 30amp inlets, I don't see how you could have an interlock / safety system that would work right to prevent the male pins from ever being hot, and, prevent backfeeding into the power company, unless it was some kind of electronically computer controlled system that sensed power and shut off the feeds as appropriate.
Can't the same be done, by just buying a 30amp to 50amp adapter? That's what I do for my fifth wheel.
That would allow you to connect a single generator unit into a 50amp socket. But that wouldn't add any capacity beyond the 30amps provided by the socket you plugged into on the generator.
Would the DuroMax XP9000iH-PK parallel kit work for this application?
If the plug fits, probably. My concern is the lack of the neutral, it would have to use the green ground as the neutral, which would present a shock risk if it were loose and you touched it. If you go that route, make sure that ground is really secure. Any imbalance between the X and Y legs, will be using that as the return path. Could be many amps passing through it.
@@Texas_DIY Good point. I did not catch that. Thank you!
Why not just buy one generac 17500E instead of 2 predator inverters?
Sine wave?
Yeah, maybe that generac does a better job with it's sine wave, but that was one of my main motivators for an inverter based generator. The pure sine wave vs. a traditional direct connect to the coil generator.
Could you do me a big favor.
According to a lot of folks the DuroMax XP9000iH and the XP9000iH-pk cant output 120v on 2 legs from the 50amp plug since the neutral is missing. An example of a generator thats wired correctly is the Honda eu7000is, (SOME of the predator 9500s even some of these are missing the neutral on the front panel.) and the new Genmax. The way the DuroMax is wired its only be able to safely produce 240v, not 120/240.
Could you check out this post I started about using the xp9000iH with there xp9000iH-pk parallel box with no neutral connection. Seems odd DuroMax would do this.
Site is power equipment forum and the post is Labeled Duromax XP9000iH-pk parallel box question
I was finally able to get you some info on the forum I had posted on. UA-cam won't let me send you the direct url of my post for some reason. So sorry
Thanks A Bunch
Robert
I'm not an electrician. I don't even play one on TV. What I say is just my "take" and not to be taken with any authority or direction. I'm not responsible if you burn your house down or cause your electrical code book to spontaneously burst into flames.
If you plugged a dryer or oven **directly** into the 50amp socket of the parallel kit, the device might not work right because it won't have a neutral (it wasn't connected in the parallel kit housing)
With many 240V loads you will end up with a slight imbalance. Yes, 240V devices pull equally from the X and Y legs. However many 240V appliances also have 120V components in them as well. (consider the light bulb inside your dryer or oven, it's probably not a 240V lamp, it's a 120V Lamp just wired between neutral and one leg. They won't bother with a 240V transformer to supply 40watts just for a light bulb, so they pull 120V power from one leg. Often the electronics in a 240V device will do this as well) Generally though, these imbalanced loads are relatively mild. But, if you directly connected it to the parallel kit, it might not power the electronics or the 120V parts of it. But, once you plug it into your inlet and it passes through the breaker box, all that changes.
I read most of the thread in the forum you mentioned, and I guess it does make sense they didn't wire the neutral on the 50A plug, because there is no dedicated neutral wire coming from the generators.
This is one of the things I don't like about the Duromax, is that lack of a dedicated neutral. If you have a large 120V appliance, it will be using the ground cable as the return path (neutral). This is why in my other comments on these videos regarding Duromax, I've advised people keep that ground cable really tight and don't let your finger get between it and the generator when it's running. There will be voltage on it.
Each generator will have neutral bonded to frame (Ground). In your breaker box, if you look you will see that your neutral wires share the same bus bar as the ground wires. So they are very much bonded in the breaker box as well. In my video showing my breaker box, you can also see this.
So when you connect the generators in a pair using the parallel kit, you're feeding X, Y into the box, and you're connecting ground, which will double as a neutral. The actual neutral cable in your extension hook up cord between the parallel kit and the home inlet isn't being used.
***As long as your ground cable is of a sufficient gauge to handle the imbalance current, this will probably work. (Note that this includes the ground wire on the back of the generator panel)*** I don't like it... I like the neutral to be there to carry that load, and the ground to be there as a backup.
But at the end of the day, the neutral and the ground are presently connected together in 3 places (each generator, and your breaker box).
I believe this is the part isn't to "code". You're supposed to have only one place where they join, and this is why some people will disconnect the frame bond in their generators. But, if the hookup is considered "temporary", most people generally aren't bothered with it. (If it's one of those whole house generator that's always connected, they do wire those to code without the bond.)
So for example:
On my generators, if I disconnected the parallel kit *ground* from the front panel of each generator, and the machines were running powering my house... nothing would happen. The Neutral would be the return path. Now reset the scenario. If I had everything connected, and then disconnected only the neutrals (but ground was connected) again, nothing would happen. (the return load would be coming over the ground cable). (GFCIs on the generator won't trip because the parallel connection bypasses those as well as the breakers on the front panel) Though at this point, I would want to be more cautious with that exposed ground lug, because if you were to loosen it, it would spark / arc as that's the voltage return path for all the non-240v devices on each of your legs.
Your system is wired the same as this last description. Ground will be serving as the neutral between the generators and your home (there is no other path for it to take), and as you showed that parallel kit doesn't even have the neutral wired up.
However, once it hits the breaker box, the neutral and ground are bonded again. So your devices inside the home have a "neutral", and that neutral wire in all of the outlets in your home will be functional because of the bond made in the breaker box giving it a return path. Once that return hits the breaker box, it finishes the circle/circuit over the ground cable to the inverters in your generator(s). So your 120V appliances and devices should function normally and not "know" anything is odd.
So I guess the big question to find out, is if the ground cabling inside your generator and in the parallel kit are sufficient to handle the imbalance (ground serving as neutral) for running normal 120V appliances.
@@Texas_DIY Thanks for all your great Info. I was thinking about making my own parallel cable using the L4-30 connector on the front panel of the generator so I could utilize the neutral. I was also kicking around the idea of adding a jumper between the missing neutral and the ground inside the 50 amp connector on the Duramax parallel box so at least the load could be shared with the neutral wire headed back to the breaker box. I know this is not perfect and that there is no real neutral on the front panel but at least I thought it might help. Here is a link to the post of a diagram to make my own parallel cable www.powerequipmentforum.com/conversations/parallel-kit-for-duromax.39331/
I don't know if you noticed in any of the posts but there is no documentation from DuroMax on what order to turn the generators on when using the parallel Kit.
If you noticed from the wiring diagram of the Duramax generator that the parallel plugs are actually switched with the 3 pole master breaker, they are not hot all the time like they are in the Honda 7000, it seems that you would have to have the master breaker on for these two generators to see each other. Duramax definitely needs better documentation,
Its just so confusing.
Thanks Again
Robert
I'd check the gauge of the cabling for the ground. If it's the same or greater thickness as everything else, it's probably fine. If you're so inclined, peek behind the panel and see what type of cable is being used for the ground there. If it all looks to be of sufficient thickness, I'd roll with it. That's pretty much how it was wired and intended for use.
You could make up some kind of contraption where you pull the neutral from the main panel (maybe use a 30A 240 plug that is wired only for the neutral), and bring that into the parallel box, join them, and feed the outlet... but you're getting into some strange and potentially dangerous territory now. I don't like that idea because it's a male plug (suicide plug). Now if the ground is connected and there is a better path back you're ok... but if you were to touch that exposed plug while everything was on and your ground wasn't solid, or you somehow became an easier path to ground, that would be bad. At least with the current setup, the ground is literally bolted onto the front panel. Make it tight and secure, and that's probably best.
I'd say if you've already got the parallel kit, and two of these units, do some testing. Hook it up, and start adding loads. See how things hold up. But again, I'm not an electrician, and that code book did look like it was smoking just a bit.
so sorry for all the multiple posts something is happening and is chopping up all my posts after I hit comment
No worries. I cleaned up most of the dupes.
Will you build me one of these ?
I’d be in for one too, seriously pls let us know if you’d consider it... HF is dragging their feet making the kit.
If there is truly interest in this, I'll need to look into it. It seems the power horse kits are out of stock, so I'd have to design and 3D print some kind of replacement socket. And I'd probably opt for a larger box that has breakers.
If there is truly interest in this, I'll need to look into it. It seems the power horse kits are out of stock, so I'd have to design and 3D print some kind of replacement socket. And I'd probably opt for a larger box that has breakers.
@@Texas_DIY thanks Jason, definitely interested! I keep calling corporate at HF and they keep saying that their parallel box is coming, but who knows when... I’ll report back but if there’s an easy way to msg or email you I’d love to stay in touch. Thank you
I'm in. Let me know when you are ready to sell them.
240v loads use both legs. You cannot balance legs with 240v loads.
Correct, with the exception of the 120v electronics, lights and such in those 240V appliances that may pull power from one leg vs. the pair. 220V appliances are generally very much balanced.
However in residential power, most devices in the home are 120VAC. With US split phase power, two hots (X+Y) = 240VAC. A Hot plus Neutral (the split), so either (X+N or Y+N) will give 120VAC. Your single pole breakers will alternate XYXYXY down the row, switching from one leg to the other. Which means they get power from one of the hot wires, and the other wire from the neutral. If more stuff in your house happens to be on X vs. Y, it can create an imbalance.
This is the playlist of the full video series, the latest one where it covers connecting the generator to the home might be of interest and explains it. ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
Welding cable is far more flexible.
Indeed. I ended up having to extend my cables further for the box I made and I used a suggestion from the comments: #8-4 SOOW for the extension, and (if needed) #6-4 SOOW for the combined feed to the 50amp outlet. The cable has a lot more strands and is much more flexible.
I ended up buying just a foot of the 6-4 for the 50amp hookup, and extending the other side using the 8-4 and it was sooo much easier to work with and get things closed up.
Why buy 2 9500 units for $4500.00 when you can buy 2 8750 units for $2000 with a coupon? 8750s are inverter units.. save over $2000 and still end up with 14000 running watts. 14000 watts is far more than enuff! (Predator's)
8750 Inverter version of the generator doesn't seem to have the parallel ports, so you can't connect two together to double output. They're also open frame, so they will be much more noisy. But if you only need one unit, it would do fine and save some bucks.
I believe you're losing 10 amps or more in that dryer plug and your generator in the inlet plug
Those are 50 amp rated each one of those generators says it can pull off 31 amps and some change each
So you're just hooking both those together why can't you run two separate generator input plugs into your inlet breaker?
Or better yet a lot of those units when they start up they look and see if there's power there then they just match whatever's there why couldn't you just use both the 30 amp twist lock plugs and join them together inside your main?
Pretty sure the four wires your connecting are the exact same four wires in the twist lock plug
If you hadn't already built this I would be telling you how to save a bunch of money and get another 2,400 watts out of it? sorry bud 😂
But then again I wouldn't have known that had I not watched your next video explaining the wiring
Sorry us folks with electrical degrees look at some of this stuff and scratch our heads because it seems a little inefficient and unnecessary
There is a lot to unpack there, and I don't have an electrical degree, so bare with this long response here while l go through it all as I see the issues and pitfalls of what you're suggesting.
Nothing is being "lost" in terms of amperage. It's just if breakers trip or something is overloaded. If resistance / heat in the wiring has climbed to the point I'm losing 10amps, then things are going very badly at that point.
But yeah, the socket itself is rated for 50amps, while the two generators can continuously push 60amps... But the wiring can certainly handle more for limited periods of time, surges, etc. Larger plugs over 50amps (especially for inlets, extension cords, etc.) all very quickly become much more specialized, non-standardized, and way more expensive. At that point, most people will typically just opt to hard wire directly to the breaker box vs. using removable plugs / cords.
So why not just use two cheaper 30amp plugs? A lot of very important reasons that I'll get to in a sec...
So I could have hardwired the parallel kit into the panel, via a breaker and bypassed the whole plug thing (basically wiring it like a true home backup generator would be wired in) That would work well, let me use the interlock, and get the absolute full capacity of the pair.
But as these are portable generators, I wanted to be able to have the whole setup be removable, and be capable of deploying them away from the house if needed. Hard wiring would limit my options in that regard, so in this case the cable plugging into the house is desired.
So there is nothing stopping one from doing two 30amp twist lock hookups, but doing it safely (both for human life and not damaging your electronics in the home) becomes MUCH more problematic and complicated.
To start with, you always want the source of electricity to have the female plug, so brushing against exposed energized plugs won't cause injury/death. So this means the inlets on the house are male, and the cable running from the generator into the house at that connection point is female. This is because the female side is coming from the generator, and carrying the power and the male side on the house is receiving it.
So if you wanted more rated capacity, and desired to use two 30amp plugs, you would need two inlets. If you wired them together, the moment you energized one side, the exposed male plugs of the other side would also be energized, and dangerous, so you also need a breaker for each inlet.
And to be safe, you need to make sure that neither of those breakers could be on at the same time that that main power feed is on, and, since there are now two, you also would need to make sure that if you had only one generator connected, you somehow couldn't also have the breaker on for the empty inlet. (otherwise again, they would be connected together and the running generator would energize the unused inlet, making a shock hazard on the exposed male plugs)
I know of no interlock that could do that. It would need some kind of electronic switching circuit that would detect incoming power, but ignore line power, and only then engage the connection if the correct conditions were met. So the interlock is out... now we're getting even more dangerous.
Could you just do it anyway? Yeah, and if you did everything right, every time, it would work. But it's certainly not safe, and not to code, and someone who didn't know what they were doing (or made one mistake in what has now become a much more complicated process) could easily kill themselves, or kill someone else if they back feed into the electric grid without the interlock in place, and / or blow up all the electronics in the home (which I'll get to at the end).
But let's continue to work backwards from the inlets now and pretend we have main power off. At the end of your 30 amp cords are male pins you're intending to plug into the generators. For the units to team together, they have to both be connected in a complete circuit. One starts, then the other sees the voltage present and matches the frequency when it is started. So both inlet breakers must be on when starting the generators. This means that as soon as you start one of the generators, the male plug on the other is now energized. It could be unplugged at any time, and you'd be holding an energized "suicide plug" in your hand. Not safe.
Additionally, the 30amp plugs on the Harbor Freight generators are limited by a 30amp breaker on the panel. So if one were to maintain the constant rated load, or get surges into the max 40+amp range eventually the breaker will probably pop before the generator overloads and cuts power. (The parallel kit bypasses the generator breakers, this is important later) If in this situation, only one breaker popped or was turned off in the pair, but didn't "overload" the generator then a very bad thing can happen that I'll describe next...
Bur first, there are now multiple breakers in the connection between the generators that are also able to interrupt the circuit (one on each generator front panel AND the one for each inlet in the breaker box) any of which would allow for the units to become disconnected from each other WHILE THEY ARE BOTH STILL RUNNING (thus breaking the synchronization).
This condition would allow the two units to almost immediately drift out of frequency sync. Just as two clocks don't typically remain perfectly synchronized for more than a few moments.
If something were to turn off one of those breakers, and then one later turned that breaker back back on, suddenly joining together two live 240v circuits that are no longer synchronized... it would probably do really, really, bad things to the inverters and I'd guess VERY spectacularly bad things to the electronics in the home.
This is why the parallel kits bypass breakers, and directly connect the two inverters together in a way that is hard to interrupt, and also, probably why when you overload one unit, you have to completely shut it down and restart it from scratch. To ensure that it properly re-syncs to the power frequency that is still present from the other unit.
In my situation, it made more sense to bond them together in a reliable way, then take that combined power out and feed it into the breaker box. While the plug is rated for 50amps, the runs are fairly short overall and have the appropriate gauge wire, so they should easily handle ongoing 50 to maybe ~60 amps, as long as I don't go too crazy and try to keep the loads reasonable while on generator power.
This is responding to B F:
I believe you're losing 10 amps or more in that dryer plug and your generator in the inlet plug
Those are 50 amp rated each one of those generators says it can pull off 31 amps and some change each
So you're just hooking both those together why can't you run two separate generator input plugs into your inlet breaker?
Or better yet a lot of those units when they start up they look and see if there's power there then they just match whatever's there why couldn't you just use both the 30 amp twist lock plugs and join them together inside your main?
Pretty sure the four wires your connecting are the exact same four wires in the twist lock plug
If you hadn't already built this I would be telling you how to save a bunch of money and get another 2,400 watts out of it? sorry bud 😂
But then again I wouldn't have known that had I not watched your next video explaining the wiring
Sorry us folks with electrical degrees look at some of this stuff and scratch our heads because it seems a little inefficient and unnecessary
@@Texas_DIY well said
40amp at single phase lol
In the US, all residential power is single phase, unless you're getting into commercial 3phase power. That single phase 240VAC is split in half, 120V for each half (or "leg") of the split. The generators each produce 240VAC, with a neutral split, exactly the same as what we get from the power company. The generators basically just swap out for the line power, wire for wire.
This is the playlist of the full video series, the latest one where it connects to the home might be of interest. ua-cam.com/play/PLzoNthJzzMFQ877vyCfoc53oDQqGFAIKN.html
thats stupid just buy 1 generator 17000 w
If you can find an inverter 17000w generator, cool beans. This method allows for redundancy, for saving fuel if your loads are less (run only one at a time). If I could have found a 17000w inverter generator for the cost of two of the 9500's though, just to simplify things, I would have happily done that.
Yes, you will get two legs of 120v service, but do NOT run any 240v appliances with that setup, because the 240v will NOT be out of phase as needed for a 240v appliance. you’ll be sorry.
These are true 240v generators. The phase is exactly the same as the service from my home power company (actually the generators are just slightly cleaner at the upper peak of the waveform)
I can, and have run all my 220/240 appliances on it. And everything is fine.
So far I’ve got 3 videos done on these generators. The other two get into the quality of the power on the oscilloscope, feel free to check those out if you’d like some clarification.
The voltage you are seeing on the box’s meters are reading low because I’m only monitoring a single leg with each one. That seemed more useful that having both read 240v.
Note that the generator does have a 110v only mode, but I have no purpose for it.
These are inverter generators not standard generators. As was mentioned the first one started is the master and the second syncs with the master.