I have to start by confessing that both Jack and Brad are my kind of Zen people. They are sincere enough to comment out loud about all the bullshit that passes through their mind. I believe that most of the- holier than thou- teachers out there spend a lot of their time on and off the cushion trying to suppress their impure thoughts. If the Zen you practice doesn't help to transcend the mental chaos, the horrible and the sublime, you're better off knitting. Jumping from limited thinking to the “all encompassing” is the point, isn't it?
Brad and Jack are (along with Muho) my go-to-no-bullshit-Zen-guys. I love their content dearly and it is such a treat having them both together in an interview. Thanks a lot!!
So glad to hear these two speak out against woke-isation of American (western?) Buddhism. Woke ideology creping into the Dharma will destroy American Buddhism. Every center should strive to keep Buddhism politically neutral and welcoming to all no matter your political leanings!
It's wild too because they are correct. If you read writings from the actual zen masters they speak of enlightenment being a thing beyond concepts and words, and non duality is a recurring theme. It's hard to imagine politics belonging in a zendo reading their work but they are very much there in the west.
I’m a Black man, and this BLM stuff is what turned me off of the whole Insight community. The last thing a Black (or any) Buddhist needs is more identity. They clearly don’t get it.
I'm a White man, practiced martial arts for years, but never considered myself to behave like a Japanese person, but after hanging out at a Soto-Zen center , I realized that most , if not all , the liturgical forms are just ancient traditional medieval JAPANESE CULTURE , and has little or nothing to do with universal meditation sitting practice from Ancient Buddhist India. But, if that's a person's thing to enjoy and vow to...be well...so be it. 😊
In defense of American Buddhism, my experience has been quite different from what is discussed here. Over the years I have practiced Zen with a teacher associated with a Korean Zen tradition. Never during our formal Zen practice session did he or anyone else bring up politics or “wokeness”. The topics of discussion were always Dharma related. Now, after the formal practice was done, when we sat around having some tea / sweets, politics would come up. Yes, everyone in our small group, which met at the Zen teacher's house, was liberal, although not always checking off all of the “woke” boxes. I also attended a Jodo Shinshu temple in the area for a number of years. Here the political vibe was more mixed, even leaning to the conservative side. Interestingly, they had a weekly mediation group, and the leader of the group was a right-winger. So, although maybe some of the better known American Buddhist groups are of the liberal / “woke” persuasion, other American Buddhist groups are not necessarily so or at least keep politics out of their formal practice.
I have noticed that it is the “white convert” Buddhist groups that lean into political stances. The Asian founded and populated groups don’t seem to go that direction. I have practiced with both.
🔥AH🔥. 31:41: i teach people by laughing at them. 39:21: pride? 54:56: "sit down and shut up" (thanx brad) practice practice practice. 1:19:41: rx: practice in seclusion (with an unrelated joe job as the manual labor) and periodic visits to a teacher (6 months? annual?). a hermit's main virtue is discretion. thank you gentlemen. may all beings benefit🕸️
I’d enjoy the three of you discussing pre Dogen Zen, especially political differences, pressure, and contradictions with modern schools. The old texts are quite fresh when returned to. I think the issue with Zen is that it really does sit atop a well of power, which can really attract some of the worst types.
I've seen how some of my favorite Zen podcasts have morphed into social justice screeds where the practice is only barely mentioned; almost as a side-note. This was especially true during the 2020-22's. The podcast teacher I'm referring to (well-known on the West coast) would read from the Mumonkan or Hekiganroku, and then veer into a political sermon. As Brad mentioned with the karate class analogy, this trend is troublesome. Thankfully, my own teacher wasn't distracted by the political climate, but stayed true to teaching the actual dharma.
2 of my favorite zen creators. Not exactly zen myself and my experience with zen people here on the west coast is pretty consistent with their assessment of the state of politicized zen here. Theravada is still my strongest preference, but I love nisargadatta and a.v.
Re Sasaki Roshi beating a student in Sanzen... in the mid 70's there was an incident during sesshin, when Sasaki Roshi hit a sesshin newcomer ... who had played football in school. The student quickly responded by punching the Roshi in the jaw and leaving! JSR commented later: 'maybe American culture different...' Good dialogue exposing current Zen and Buddhist 'teacher' fixations and ailments!
Very interesting and surprisingly cathartic episode. I witnessed some of what they mentioned on Facebook groups preaching wokeness by name, as well as just the shallowness of some American ex hippie Dharma teachers in general. It always blows my mind when the point is cutting through delusion and illusion and they will have a serious blind spot about their own delusions related to politics and social justice or even their own shortcomings. Spiritual people that are serious about those issues, but don't look beyond the surface are doing themselves and their followers a huge disservice. It takes minuscule amount of non mainstream research to see how corrupt and soul-less many of the movements and political groups are. Especially in regards to health it was disturbing to see how many spiritual people lacked discernment and caved to policing and condemning and coercing others during 2020 onward based on nonsensical health information or obvious propaganda based on fear and manipulation.
May be best just to follow the teachings of the Buddah as best one can. Investigate yourself, investigate, who you’re giving authority to before giving authority to anybody. So you are not abused or disappointed by the inevitable shortcomings that most human beings possess. The irony is meditation, and Buddhism is supposed to be a path to the liberation from suffering.
Also wanted to add because young people maybe watching these influencers. One should consider that weather these young men’s opinions and experiences may or may not be valid. It would be helpful to recognize; they are setting themselves up in a position of authority, and are deriving, at least some financial gain and attention from the public. One not only needs to consider who is being critiqued, but one should also investigate who is doing the criticizing.
Brilliant conversation. I confess I did not know they even existed but wow post modernists almost, buddhist, super witty and most of all they don’t take themselves so seriously ha ha ha
Dogen, the Soto Zen master, which Brad's teacher Nishijima painstakingly translated into English, has a full "woke" chapter in Shobogenzo. It's called "Raihai Tokuzui: Bowing and Acquiring the Essence", and I recommend both Brad and Jack to read it, it's great. So the "no politics / wokeness" in "real" Zen "argument" is very flawed. It may also be worth reading "Zen at War" by Brian Victoria, to see the real ugly side of "non-political Zen", because most times being "apolitical" is really actually supporting the status quo.
There's a certain kind of macho male (pseudo Samurai) streak in Japanese culture and it's sometimes on display in Japanese Zen. One can be a truth teller without being abusive. Is there anything in the early Buddhist sutras where Buddha displays "Samurai" style teaching methods?
I found that most, if not all liturgical Soto-Zen forms at Zen Centers are Medieval Japanese culture forms. For me to behave like that would be just an affected false pretense of robed up- kotobuki theatre. Sitting is just sitting...choose wisely Grasshopper.😊
the americans always talk about the nazis and forget how many slaves they kept and how many of them the whipped to death. and how long the keept the apartnes, ....
Sounds like Brad ran headfirst into psychotherapy-buddhism, worse even than woke buddhism. Very big in NYC. And yes, I heard the keynote you referenced, Brad. And I gave feedback. I wish you could/would be more explicit, but I understand why you are not. And Shozan, there is a tendency of the woke to attack women and leave men alone (noted by Douglas Murray and others).
@@michigandersea3485 Ordinarily I wouldn't continue something in the comments, but I am curious: Is your issue that you consider Rinzai/Soto to be specific enough such that they OK to poke fun at, but Buddhism as a whole is a different creature? Is it a difference in level of perceived irreverence, where "evil/sucks" are more benign than "blows"? Something else beyond those options?
@@koftu probably not good to slander any of them. They could all be skillful means for the right person. Personally , I tend toward a comprehensive view in a similar vein as the Tendai school-many different paths and they’re skillful means for different people.
@@michigandersea3485 Thanks for the response. I have one more question before laying this issue to rest: Did you see the part at the end where Brad and Jack themselves were [playfully] mocking both Rinzai and Soto?
Yep 3 on screen 1 in comments. But hard to see. This shows mastery. Each keeping it simple. Some fish are small some fish are big. Some ponds are small Some ponds are large. But to aim for small and small catches most in a net.
Nobody wants privacy invaded but everyone has privacy invaded but confusion arises when both deny invading and deny being invaded. So technically all are enlightened and none are enlightened.
@GuruViking Thanks for thus. I sub to both their channels and have read both their books. Ive known they were friends for awhile and it was very enjoyable watching them interact. Love rhe channel ❤🎉
Highly enjoyable to hear from Dharma teachers, who actually put the Dharma before politics, identity and all the other muck of samsara.
I have to start by confessing that both Jack and Brad are my kind of Zen people. They are sincere enough to comment out loud about all the bullshit that passes through their mind. I believe that most of the- holier than thou- teachers out there spend a lot of their time on and off the cushion trying to suppress their impure thoughts. If the Zen you practice doesn't help to transcend the mental chaos, the horrible and the sublime, you're better off knitting. Jumping from limited thinking to the “all encompassing” is the point, isn't it?
Brad and Jack are (along with Muho) my go-to-no-bullshit-Zen-guys. I love their content dearly and it is such a treat having them both together in an interview. Thanks a lot!!
So glad to hear these two speak out against woke-isation of American (western?) Buddhism. Woke ideology creping into the Dharma will destroy American Buddhism. Every center should strive to keep Buddhism politically neutral and welcoming to all no matter your political leanings!
It's wild too because they are correct.
If you read writings from the actual zen masters they speak of enlightenment being a thing beyond concepts and words, and non duality is a recurring theme.
It's hard to imagine politics belonging in a zendo reading their work but they are very much there in the west.
Yes!!
Great comments, thanks Steve for such a good channel!
I’m a Black man, and this BLM stuff is what turned me off of the whole Insight community. The last thing a Black (or any) Buddhist needs is more identity. They clearly don’t get it.
Thanks for this.
I'm a White man, practiced martial arts for years, but never considered myself to behave like a Japanese person, but after hanging out at a Soto-Zen center , I realized that most , if not all , the liturgical forms are just ancient traditional medieval JAPANESE CULTURE , and has little or nothing to do with universal meditation sitting practice from Ancient Buddhist India. But, if that's a person's thing to enjoy and vow to...be well...so be it. 😊
In defense of American Buddhism, my experience has been quite different from what is discussed here. Over the years I have practiced Zen with a teacher associated with a Korean Zen tradition. Never during our formal Zen practice session did he or anyone else bring up politics or “wokeness”. The topics of discussion were always Dharma related. Now, after the formal practice was done, when we sat around having some tea / sweets, politics would come up. Yes, everyone in our small group, which met at the Zen teacher's house, was liberal, although not always checking off all of the “woke” boxes. I also attended a Jodo Shinshu temple in the area for a number of years. Here the political vibe was more mixed, even leaning to the conservative side. Interestingly, they had a weekly mediation group, and the leader of the group was a right-winger.
So, although maybe some of the better known American Buddhist groups are of the liberal / “woke” persuasion, other American Buddhist groups are not necessarily so or at least keep politics out of their formal practice.
I have noticed that it is the “white convert” Buddhist groups that lean into political stances. The Asian founded and populated groups don’t seem to go that direction. I have practiced with both.
Both are great teachers. Have read all of Brad's books and have yet to read Shozan's books, but they are on my list.
They're both so extremely likable. How nice.
This was great, I loved it.
Some troublemakers you got here. This should be yet another good one from the Guru Viking stable of simpatico spiritual irregulars.
🔥AH🔥. 31:41: i teach people by laughing at them. 39:21: pride? 54:56: "sit down and shut up" (thanx brad) practice practice practice. 1:19:41: rx: practice in seclusion (with an unrelated joe job as the manual labor) and periodic visits to a teacher (6 months? annual?). a hermit's main virtue is discretion. thank you gentlemen. may all beings benefit🕸️
I approve this conversation
I’d enjoy the three of you discussing pre Dogen Zen, especially political differences, pressure, and contradictions with modern schools. The old texts are quite fresh when returned to.
I think the issue with Zen is that it really does sit atop a well of power, which can really attract some of the worst types.
Personally I really enjoy the stories of the old Chan masters, very much pre-Dogen
I've seen how some of my favorite Zen podcasts have morphed into social justice screeds where the practice is only barely mentioned; almost as a side-note. This was especially true during the 2020-22's. The podcast teacher I'm referring to (well-known on the West coast) would read from the Mumonkan or Hekiganroku, and then veer into a political sermon. As Brad mentioned with the karate class analogy, this trend is troublesome. Thankfully, my own teacher wasn't distracted by the political climate, but stayed true to teaching the actual dharma.
2 of my favorite zen creators. Not exactly zen myself and my experience with zen people here on the west coast is pretty consistent with their assessment of the state of politicized zen here.
Theravada is still my strongest preference, but I love nisargadatta and a.v.
"Born to be insignificant" that's funny, and I can totally relate, thank you Shozan
That's about the only truthful line I had, but it sticks!
Re Sasaki Roshi beating a student in Sanzen... in the mid 70's there was an incident during sesshin, when Sasaki Roshi hit a sesshin newcomer ... who had played football in school. The student quickly responded by punching the Roshi in the jaw and leaving! JSR commented later: 'maybe American culture different...' Good dialogue exposing current Zen and Buddhist 'teacher' fixations and ailments!
This is interesting, I never heard this story!
Thank you for the great conversation! And yes we need the Soto VS Rinzai Battle Video!! :)
Another good rant lads! 👏🏻
my favourite people!
Very interesting and surprisingly cathartic episode. I witnessed some of what they mentioned on Facebook groups preaching wokeness by name, as well as just the shallowness of some American ex hippie Dharma teachers in general. It always blows my mind when the point is cutting through delusion and illusion and they will have a serious blind spot about their own delusions related to politics and social justice or even their own shortcomings. Spiritual people that are serious about those issues, but don't look beyond the surface are doing themselves and their followers a huge disservice. It takes minuscule amount of non mainstream research to see how corrupt and soul-less many of the movements and political groups are. Especially in regards to health it was disturbing to see how many spiritual people lacked discernment and caved to policing and condemning and coercing others during 2020 onward based on nonsensical health information or obvious propaganda based on fear and manipulation.
I like how Steve maintains a neutral expression while the other two agree with each other.
What happened to right speech and right effort?
May be best just to follow the teachings of the Buddah as best one can. Investigate yourself, investigate, who you’re giving authority to before giving authority to anybody. So you are not abused or disappointed by the inevitable shortcomings that most human beings possess. The irony is meditation, and Buddhism is supposed to be a path to the liberation from suffering.
Also wanted to add because young people maybe watching these influencers. One should consider that weather these young men’s opinions and experiences may or may not be valid. It would be helpful to recognize; they are setting themselves up in a position of authority, and are deriving, at least some financial gain and attention from the public. One not only needs to consider who is being critiqued, but one should also investigate who is doing the criticizing.
1:39 about equilibrium, good.
Brilliant conversation. I confess I did not know they even existed but wow post modernists almost, buddhist, super witty and most of all they don’t take themselves so seriously ha ha ha
Dogen, the Soto Zen master, which Brad's teacher Nishijima painstakingly translated into English, has a full "woke" chapter in Shobogenzo. It's called "Raihai Tokuzui: Bowing and Acquiring the Essence", and I recommend both Brad and Jack to read it, it's great. So the "no politics / wokeness" in "real" Zen "argument" is very flawed.
It may also be worth reading "Zen at War" by Brian Victoria, to see the real ugly side of "non-political Zen", because most times being "apolitical" is really actually supporting the status quo.
There's a certain kind of macho male (pseudo Samurai) streak in Japanese culture and it's sometimes on display in Japanese Zen. One can be a truth teller without being abusive. Is there anything in the early Buddhist sutras where Buddha displays "Samurai" style teaching methods?
When you practce, 'Just sitting,' what you are actuall doing is, 'Just sitting.'
I found that most, if not all liturgical Soto-Zen forms at Zen Centers are Medieval Japanese culture forms. For me to behave like that would be just an affected false pretense of robed up- kotobuki theatre. Sitting is just sitting...choose wisely Grasshopper.😊
the americans always talk about the nazis and forget how many slaves they kept and how many of them the whipped to death. and how long the keept the apartnes, ....
Guru Viking does get it and understands that Papa Smurf is the one to listen to. La La La La La La. La La La La La. La La La La La La. La La La La La.
Sounds like Brad ran headfirst into psychotherapy-buddhism, worse even than woke buddhism. Very big in NYC. And yes, I heard the keynote you referenced, Brad. And I gave feedback. I wish you could/would be more explicit, but I understand why you are not. And Shozan, there is a tendency of the woke to attack women and leave men alone (noted by Douglas Murray and others).
I placed my bets. Let the match begin.
Great, but I find it hard to get past Brad Warner’s belief in COVID conspiracy theories.
"Rinzai is Evil, Soto Sucks, Buddhism Blows..."?
Don't say that. Slandering the Dharma in general is not cool.
@@michigandersea3485 Ordinarily I wouldn't continue something in the comments, but I am curious: Is your issue that you consider Rinzai/Soto to be specific enough such that they OK to poke fun at, but Buddhism as a whole is a different creature?
Is it a difference in level of perceived irreverence, where "evil/sucks" are more benign than "blows"?
Something else beyond those options?
@@koftu probably not good to slander any of them. They could all be skillful means for the right person.
Personally , I tend toward a comprehensive view in a similar vein as the Tendai school-many different paths and they’re skillful means for different people.
@@michigandersea3485 Thanks for the response.
I have one more question before laying this issue to rest: Did you see the part at the end where Brad and Jack themselves were [playfully] mocking both Rinzai and Soto?
@@koftu no, but that’s their business. They are both learned and experienced teachers.
Yep 3 on screen 1 in comments. But hard to see. This shows mastery. Each keeping it simple. Some fish are small some fish are big. Some ponds are small Some ponds are large. But to aim for small and small catches most in a net.
Nobody wants privacy invaded but everyone has privacy invaded but confusion arises when both deny invading and deny being invaded. So technically all are enlightened and none are enlightened.
A middle ground needs be measured and standardized.
The value in the head of the dead cat is to get others to seek real teachers not fake ones. One arrow or 10000 arrows. Small ponds or big pond.
Lol China. Waiting for Llama to fall so they can replace... lmao 😅
@GuruViking Thanks for thus. I sub to both their channels and have read both their books. Ive known they were friends for awhile and it was very enjoyable watching them interact. Love rhe channel ❤🎉