So I recently did a mild isolation to my sub by putting it it on one of those rubber/foam garage/basement floor type mats, I can say with certainty that in My room it has helped tremendously! I won’t lie, it doesn’t seem to play as low, but it also doesn’t have a massive dip in its response down to its lower end. It’s definitely smoother and more natural sounding for me and I’m very happy with the decision to isolate it! Do what works best and sounds best for Your own use!
One thing to note about vibration isolation between speakers and structures is that while It might not make any real difference inside the room, your neighbours will almost certainly thank you for it. You don't need expensive spikes or fancy decoupling disks. Most of the time some simple self stick rubber feet will do the job.
I’m running a Bob Carver Sunfire Jr. with open baffle mains. It’s small size allowed it to be placed on a 3” thick granite slab (used in machine shops and easily procured) to isolate it from the floor in an apartment setting. Seems to work well, and no complaints from neighbors.
Sunfire True Subwoofer by Bob Carver. 2700 W amplifier built-in. I still have one in my system because it's fast and powerful. Just need to find a second one. SBS makes great subwoofers. Mine sits on a Symposium Platform which does a good job of decoupling it from the room.
Coupling subs to the floor (or anything else) bears the risk of sending vibrations to items in the room that may start to rattle or doing other weird kind of noises - which ruins the overall sound.
I screwed some thick 50 mm screws into an MDF board a bit larger than the base of the sub. Like a yogi bed of nails. Place the protruding screws side on the carpet and place the sub on top. No vibrations to walls and floors. And no movement. Clean nice natural low bass. Cheap.
Officially, REL say that you should place the sub on the floor as it is calibrated to be setup that way. Something to do with the interactions with the floor and distance from driver to floor all being accounted for in the design of their products. The owner said messing with this would degrade the sound so just use the stock feet. He said the only thing he would advise would be a little blu tack to keep the sub in place. Nothing else. Saw a video on this from the owner a few months back on the REL UA-cam channel. Personally, I think my REL sub sounds better on an isolation platform so I guess the moral is to try out a few things for yourself and see what you prefer.
if you try the Uncoupling of a subwoofer, if it sounds better then that is worth more than a small risk of longevity. you can do both Uncoupling and make the subwoofer solid with adding weights on top. stone slab or something. anyone can test themself with a "online tone generator" check each frequency and see how much the subwoofer moves.
Most people tend to have the gain way to high on subs for music and although it can be fun the whole point is to have it integrated with the mains to fill in the bottom frequencies. Your subs should disappear in the sound stage not be the primary focus.
At low frequency you will not be able to focus on where these frequencies are coming from. I wouldn’t worry about the sound stage. Poorly used and set sub-woofers muddy the overall sound and sometimes gives people headaches and balance issues
Absolutely. I've had more than one case, after an installation, where the client turned the treble all the way down and the bass all the way up. Of course my question is "Why?" and on at least one case the answer was "to get rid of all that distortion' ... Upon further discussion I learned that my "friend" had never heard live music and had no idea what cymbols or bells sounded like. For him it was all in the bass...
For those with subs on a wood frame floor (ie not concrete,) do yourself a favor and purchase an Auralex Subdude. You will find the bass is much cleaner and stop your floor from vibration.
Now that I'm thinking of it, I really love to get my speaker placement right, especailly by ear. I really focus on getting the right height, which imo every speaker fails in. When you listen with your eyes closed, unbiased, height is the most critical of all, again, my opinion.-> we are all focusing on natural sounding response. Most low frequency instruments are usually suspended from the floor in some manner, think about it. So I would suggest listening to the 'sub'-end with the eyes closed, in relation to height. A mere milimeter of movement can sometimes have huge effects in the whole spectrum that you are translating to the room. Once your ears are used to pick up those differences, it can be truly amazing what you can achieve. You start to 'see' the height or stage of the recording in your mind's eye. And as Paul states every time; find the best speakers that you can afford. Choose the speakers that speak to you. Don't buy without listening.
I had an old silicon in the garage that was hardened in the tube. Cut it in 4 pieces and put it under my Klipsch SPL150 . Cheap and efficient. Only problem is that the silicon is White i would prefer a Black one.
Maybe those who believe that by uncoupling a subwoofer would have it damage is because, since you'll experience a less bassy response, they increase the volume to compensate and then damage the speaker.
I think the uncouping myth was originated in car audio applications . I have seen many low cost ,low build quality car subwoofers shake and bounce their way to pieces which in itself is bad but while this was going on the loss of bass was also happening. Energy wasted ,frequency loss and fluctuations. All in all a terrible waste of money and performance . Secure your subs in your automobile folks . At home isolate, decouple as needed like Paul said. Hope this helps.
Then there was the Amazing Loudspeaker. While it was not an exorcise in polishing a turd it was an exorcise in polishing four turds and mooshing them together to make something that actually sounded like more than the sum of its parts ie, pretty descent. Bob Carver seems to be really good at that. (a compliment actually)
I have Concertmeister Baso vibration dumpers under 2 of my subs, under front floorstanders, and under surrounds on top of stands. The effect is very audabile, bass is much tighter and clean. Absolute no booming sound. All small vibrations disappeared. Of course, when low bass hits in movie scenes, you can still feel it in your chest and then windows tend to rattle a bit (we are talking really loud volume here) But it was the biggest help for my sound ever. I would suggest this tweak to all. You will be amazed with the results. Absolutely audible on first bass sound.
.....hahahaha .... it literally moved across the floor 😂... that was the floor moving past !! There's only ONE way to construct a sub ....and for those who are interested.... and that is to use two drivers mounted on opposite sides with two bigger passive radiators ...Mounted on the other two sides ... this balances everything out ... don't ask me where the plate amplifier goes ... probably on the top 😮!
Never put a subwoofer directly on the floor. Floor interference, resonance and boomy bass will always, or almost always result. You want something hard under them. Something that will RELEASE energy, not store it. Metal is a good material underneath. In a pinch I have used unopened cans of food. How about a tripod configuration of Sunkist Tuna/Sunfire amps. Mmmm good!
Paul is just as entitled to be wrong as anybody else. Especially since he seemingly lacks vibrtation mgmt expertise as evidenced by his system configs and comments elsewhere. This is no slight against Paul as many/most fall into this same category. Like an atomic force microscope, an amplifier or even a crossover is a sensitive instrument where the fidelity of the input signal ought to be paramount as it's processed. Sensitive instruments in general are well... sensitive to unwanted mechanical or vibrational energies. Paul mentioned Carver's little Amazing Subwoofer that vibrated so violently, it actually "walked" about the room so much so that Paul mentioned his desire to strap it to the floor. For argument's sake, let's assume the built-in amp includes at least one vacuum tube and let's also set aside the fidelity of the input signal. What might the perceived end-of-life cycle or longevity be for that vacuum tube inside that subwoofer - which we could easily consider the epicenter of a continuous earthquake? In all likelihood, that vacuum tube won't last very long. At the very least, I seriously doubt a mfg'er would warranty a reasonable duration of time for that vacuum tube. If we consider the quality of the input signal's fidelity while being processed, well, if one has little experience with superior forms of vibration mgmt, how could one possibly know that their equipment has been operating closer toward their base level of performance rather than their optimal? Especially if their only experience is with grossly inferior forms of vibration mgmt? Additionally, one ought not expect optimal performance from an atomic force microscope mounted to Carver's Amazing Sub, nor should one expect optimal performance from even a solid-state amp when mounted to a sub. And yes, this philosophy applies equally to active speakers. Lastly, we're talking resistance and efficiencies - actually lowered resistance and improved efficiencies. Resonant energy, especially unwanted resonant energy, induces friction which in turn generates unwanted heat and the less true the object performs. The more true any object is allowed to perform the lower the resistance and the more improved the efficiency. Hence, logic alone should dictate that when something operates more true, the greater the probability of improved longevity. But again, when our exposure to vibration controlling methods and executions are only of the inferior kind (which trap most/all unwanted vibrations within so that all unwanted vibrational energies must be released somewhere within its confined space), all of the above is essentially moot.
I don't think I'll identify as an "audiophile" any longer, because many of them are clearly insane! ... Many of them are so gullible that they believe the craziest things, and "imagine" they can hear differences, where none exist! ... I'll just get on enjoying my Hi-Fi, and leave the "crazy stuff" to the crazy! 🤣
Wouldn't the sane & scientific thing be to actually try things before declaring them insane? No, I won't believe if you tell me you've done dozens of experiments or A/Bing, or that you've lived with expensive cables and didn't like them. If you put a powerfull box fan on the floor you will feel the vibration through the floor. Put the box fan on a sturdy piece of furniture & you will only hear the box fan vibrate. Put finger pressure on the top of the box fan with a single finger, and the box fan doesn't make a vibrating sound anymore. Elementary. Also you have to have "ears" (so to speak) and you have to have at least the slightest idea of what to listen for. I agree that the prices audiophiles sometimes pay is crazy. But some of them can afford to; since they've done very well in life. Maybe it's crazy being a perfectionist in an endeavor where perfection is not possible. But their consolation prize is they do often get sound that is truly amazing. When your sound is that breathtakingly cool, even if it's not 100% real; who's counting.
@mar. But you don't know any of us people, yet you pretend to know us all. You can't possibly know how gullible someone is without knowing them personally; or how scientific they are either without knowing them personally. They're certainly more scientific, being doctors and lawyers often, than someone who guesses how gullible total starangers are, that they don't even know. To even know how one persons accuracy of perception is, would require a long & varied series of tests, covering many different things. Yet you skip all that and just play "higher intelligence being", and "absentee psychologist" and "perception evaluator" of enough people to populate an enormous city. Without knowing any of them.
Man… that’s some seriously SUB-par grade-A hooey right there if I ever heard it. Did that person even quantify the fact that loudspeakers have woofers that sometimes are significantly high off the floor and those loudspeakers are typically on spikes so they are also decoupled??’s SMH.. 😂😂
So I recently did a mild isolation to my sub by putting it it on one of those rubber/foam garage/basement floor type mats, I can say with certainty that in My room it has helped tremendously! I won’t lie, it doesn’t seem to play as low, but it also doesn’t have a massive dip in its response down to its lower end. It’s definitely smoother and more natural sounding for me and I’m very happy with the decision to isolate it! Do what works best and sounds best for Your own use!
Thanks. I've been looking for a report as to how this would work. Guess I have a date with Home Depot.
One thing to note about vibration isolation between speakers and structures is that while It might not make any real difference inside the room, your neighbours will almost certainly thank you for it.
You don't need expensive spikes or fancy decoupling disks. Most of the time some simple self stick rubber feet will do the job.
I’m running a Bob Carver Sunfire Jr. with open baffle mains. It’s small size allowed it to be placed on a 3” thick granite slab (used in machine shops and easily procured) to isolate it from the floor in an apartment setting. Seems to work well, and no complaints from neighbors.
Sunfire True Subwoofer by Bob Carver. 2700 W amplifier built-in. I still have one in my system because it's fast and powerful. Just need to find a second one. SBS makes great subwoofers. Mine sits on a Symposium Platform which does a good job of decoupling it from the room.
Sunfire subwoofer was indeed amazing.
Coupling subs to the floor (or anything else) bears the risk of sending vibrations to items in the room that may start to rattle or doing other weird kind of noises - which ruins the overall sound.
I put those inexpensive Herbie's Audio Lab pads under my Rel and i think they work great.
I screwed some thick 50 mm screws into an MDF board a bit larger than the base of the sub. Like a yogi bed of nails. Place the protruding screws side on the carpet and place the sub on top. No vibrations to walls and floors. And no movement. Clean nice natural low bass. Cheap.
Mine are on Thownshend seismic bars...makes a huge difference.
Officially, REL say that you should place the sub on the floor as it is calibrated to be setup that way. Something to do with the interactions with the floor and distance from driver to floor all being accounted for in the design of their products. The owner said messing with this would degrade the sound so just use the stock feet. He said the only thing he would advise would be a little blu tack to keep the sub in place. Nothing else. Saw a video on this from the owner a few months back on the REL UA-cam channel. Personally, I think my REL sub sounds better on an isolation platform so I guess the moral is to try out a few things for yourself and see what you prefer.
if you try the Uncoupling of a subwoofer, if it sounds better then that is worth more than a small risk of longevity.
you can do both Uncoupling and make the subwoofer solid with adding weights on top. stone slab or something.
anyone can test themself with a "online tone generator" check each frequency and see how much the subwoofer moves.
Most people tend to have the gain way to high on subs for music and although it can be fun the whole point is to have it integrated with the mains to fill in the bottom frequencies. Your subs should disappear in the sound stage not be the primary focus.
At low frequency you will not be able to focus on where these frequencies are coming from.
I wouldn’t worry about the sound stage.
Poorly used and set sub-woofers muddy the overall sound and sometimes gives people headaches and balance issues
Absolutely. I've had more than one case, after an installation, where the client turned the treble all the way down and the bass all the way up. Of course my question is "Why?" and on at least one case the answer was "to get rid of all that distortion' ... Upon further discussion I learned that my "friend" had never heard live music and had no idea what cymbols or bells sounded like. For him it was all in the bass...
@@Douglas_Blake_579 Symbols have a sound? 😉
_(of course I know you meant cymbals)_
@@Fastvoice
LOL... My bad! Thanks, I'll fix it.
@@FastvoiceActually, he wrote “cymbols” initially Lol
Edit:🤔..or maybe not initially! 😂😂
That is indeed nuts !
😆
It does give me better sound in my room.
For those with subs on a wood frame floor (ie not concrete,) do yourself a favor and purchase an Auralex Subdude. You will find the bass is much cleaner and stop your floor from vibration.
I have my HSU ULS-15 sub on a peacemaker platform from Audimute. Works great and is made from recycled rubber.
Now that I'm thinking of it, I really love to get my speaker placement right, especailly by ear.
I really focus on getting the right height, which imo every speaker fails in. When you listen with your eyes closed, unbiased, height is the most critical of all, again, my opinion.-> we are all focusing on natural sounding response.
Most low frequency instruments are usually suspended from the floor in some manner, think about it.
So I would suggest listening to the 'sub'-end with the eyes closed, in relation to height. A mere milimeter of movement can sometimes have huge effects in the whole spectrum that you are translating to the room. Once your ears are used to pick up those differences, it can be truly amazing what you can achieve. You start to 'see' the height or stage of the recording in your mind's eye.
And as Paul states every time; find the best speakers that you can afford. Choose the speakers that speak to you. Don't buy without listening.
I had an old silicon in the garage that was hardened in the tube. Cut it in 4 pieces and put it under my Klipsch SPL150 . Cheap and efficient. Only problem is that the silicon is White i would prefer a Black one.
Great idea.
Reading huey is half the fun. :)
Maybe those who believe that by uncoupling a subwoofer would have it damage is because, since you'll experience a less bassy response, they increase the volume to compensate and then damage the speaker.
That person should go and watch Mr Hunter explains about not putting subs on isolation platforms. After isolating, the sub no longer producing bass
Subwoofer + Roomba = Profit!
I have my KEF-sub on soft feets from Sonic Design with great result.
Decoupling the sub significantly lowers the level of the lowest frequencies but can 'clean up' the mid bass.
I have had 2 Rel subs in my room and found, over time, it works best for me directly on the floor with nothing in between
Hope they glued the (large) components of the subwoofer amplifier. (they will)
I put my sub on top of 2 stacks of A4 paper and it sounds so much better compared to just place it on the floor.
I think the uncouping myth was originated in car audio applications . I have seen many low cost ,low build quality car subwoofers shake and bounce their way to pieces which in itself is bad but while this was going on the loss of bass was also happening. Energy wasted ,frequency loss and fluctuations. All in all a terrible waste of money and performance . Secure your subs in your automobile folks . At home isolate, decouple as needed like Paul said. Hope this helps.
The Sunfire subwoofer was just called the True Subwoofer. Not one of Bob's more creative names.
Then there was the Amazing Loudspeaker. While it was not an exorcise in polishing a turd it was an exorcise in polishing four turds and mooshing them together to make something that actually sounded like more than the sum of its parts ie, pretty descent. Bob Carver seems to be really good at that. (a compliment actually)
I have 2 True Signature Subs and had the plate amps updated by a Carver tech. They are on my theater setup. The chairs move!
What turntable is that?
I used putty to keep the Sunfire sub from moving g around
Subwoofers are regularly 'flown'...
I have Concertmeister Baso vibration dumpers under 2 of my subs, under front floorstanders, and under surrounds on top of stands.
The effect is very audabile, bass is much tighter and clean. Absolute no booming sound.
All small vibrations disappeared. Of course, when low bass hits in movie scenes, you can still feel it in your chest and then windows tend to rattle a bit (we are talking really loud volume here)
But it was the biggest help for my sound ever. I would suggest this tweak to all.
You will be amazed with the results. Absolutely audible on first bass sound.
.....hahahaha .... it literally moved across the floor 😂... that was the floor moving past !! There's only ONE way to construct a sub ....and for those who are interested.... and that is to use two drivers mounted on opposite sides with two bigger passive radiators ...Mounted on the other two sides ... this balances everything out ... don't ask me where the plate amplifier goes ... probably on the top 😮!
Decoupling.
My sunfire tore its own long throw passive radiator and carver wanted $300 to replace it. Bye.
SMH 🤦♂️ hooey on the internet. Especially here. Phooey
Never put a subwoofer directly on the floor. Floor interference, resonance and boomy bass will always, or almost always result. You want something hard under them. Something that will RELEASE energy, not store it. Metal is a good material underneath. In a pinch I have used unopened cans of food. How about a tripod configuration of Sunkist Tuna/Sunfire amps. Mmmm good!
Paul is just as entitled to be wrong as anybody else. Especially since he seemingly lacks vibrtation mgmt expertise as evidenced by his system configs and comments elsewhere. This is no slight against Paul as many/most fall into this same category. Like an atomic force microscope, an amplifier or even a crossover is a sensitive instrument where the fidelity of the input signal ought to be paramount as it's processed. Sensitive instruments in general are well... sensitive to unwanted mechanical or vibrational energies. Paul mentioned Carver's little Amazing Subwoofer that vibrated so violently, it actually "walked" about the room so much so that Paul mentioned his desire to strap it to the floor.
For argument's sake, let's assume the built-in amp includes at least one vacuum tube and let's also set aside the fidelity of the input signal. What might the perceived end-of-life cycle or longevity be for that vacuum tube inside that subwoofer - which we could easily consider the epicenter of a continuous earthquake? In all likelihood, that vacuum tube won't last very long. At the very least, I seriously doubt a mfg'er would warranty a reasonable duration of time for that vacuum tube.
If we consider the quality of the input signal's fidelity while being processed, well, if one has little experience with superior forms of vibration mgmt, how could one possibly know that their equipment has been operating closer toward their base level of performance rather than their optimal? Especially if their only experience is with grossly inferior forms of vibration mgmt?
Additionally, one ought not expect optimal performance from an atomic force microscope mounted to Carver's Amazing Sub, nor should one expect optimal performance from even a solid-state amp when mounted to a sub. And yes, this philosophy applies equally to active speakers.
Lastly, we're talking resistance and efficiencies - actually lowered resistance and improved efficiencies. Resonant energy, especially unwanted resonant energy, induces friction which in turn generates unwanted heat and the less true the object performs. The more true any object is allowed to perform the lower the resistance and the more improved the efficiency. Hence, logic alone should dictate that when something operates more true, the greater the probability of improved longevity.
But again, when our exposure to vibration controlling methods and executions are only of the inferior kind (which trap most/all unwanted vibrations within so that all unwanted vibrational energies must be released somewhere within its confined space), all of the above is essentially moot.
I don't think I'll identify as an "audiophile" any longer, because many of them are clearly insane! ... Many of them are so gullible that they believe the craziest things, and "imagine" they can hear differences, where none exist! ... I'll just get on enjoying my Hi-Fi, and leave the "crazy stuff" to the crazy! 🤣
Wouldn't the sane & scientific thing be to actually try things before declaring them insane? No, I won't believe if you tell me you've done dozens of experiments or
A/Bing, or that you've lived with expensive cables and didn't like them. If you put a powerfull box fan on the floor you will feel the vibration through the floor. Put the box fan on a sturdy piece of furniture & you will only hear the box fan vibrate. Put finger pressure on the top of the box fan with a single finger, and the box fan doesn't make a vibrating sound anymore. Elementary. Also you have to have "ears" (so to speak) and you have to have at least the slightest idea of what to listen for. I agree that the prices audiophiles sometimes pay is crazy. But some of them can afford to; since they've done very well in life. Maybe it's crazy being a perfectionist in an endeavor where perfection is not possible. But their consolation prize is they do often get sound that is truly amazing. When your sound is that breathtakingly cool, even if it's not 100% real; who's counting.
@@sidesup8286 Blimey, some people are easily baited! 🤣
@mar. But you don't know any of us people, yet you pretend to know us all. You can't possibly know how gullible someone is without knowing them personally; or how scientific they are either without knowing them personally. They're certainly more scientific, being doctors and lawyers often, than someone who guesses how gullible total starangers are, that they don't even know.
To even know how one persons accuracy of perception is, would require a long & varied series of tests, covering many different things. Yet you skip all that and just play "higher intelligence being", and "absentee psychologist" and "perception evaluator" of enough people to populate an enormous city. Without knowing any of them.
Raise your sub off the floor!!!
Man… that’s some seriously SUB-par grade-A hooey right there if I ever heard it.
Did that person even quantify the fact that loudspeakers have woofers that sometimes are significantly high off the floor and those loudspeakers are typically on spikes so they are also decoupled??’s SMH.. 😂😂
first but really last
You also do not need to stack isolation pucks. Waste of money.
All that sub culture.... huh