I have the same amount of “normal” home theater tips, tours and review videos, I have just added podcasts and podcast clips to the channel. The last few podcasts have been three hours long answering a ton of questions. Most people aren’t going to watch a three hour podcast so I chop up some of the clips answering specific questions.
@Youthman Youthman I would definitely recommend putting timestamps in your livestreams for all the different questions being answered that way people can still go back and watch them and choose where to watch and listen in the video. You should be able to go back and do so after the livestream is all said and done.
I think the subwoofer crawl was more in mind for people who was just getting in to subwoofers and using smaller entry level subs. Also this has been around long before REW and similar were readily available. It’s a simple way for the average person to get in a position that might be better than where they may place it ascetically
Just to let you know, I have used the audyssey Mic for the Denon receiver with Rew. Not exactly sure how accurate it is, would be interesting if you could do a video with REW and use an audyssey Mic versus your calibrated Mic to see what the difference is. I have dual subs one sealed, one ported. I use Audyssey to EQ the dual subwoofers, but after using REW, I realized time alignment was off. I ended up switching my subwoofer distances on my Denon AVR little by little using REW. Now I have plus or minus 3dB from 18Hz to 80Hz. Bass is a lot better now. Thanks for your videos.
Michael, great and informative video, but I think you're downplaying how the "crawl" is meant as a starting point and not as the end all be all. First off, not every room has four walls or is symmetrical like the diagrams you show from GIK Acoustics, which in turn means that users will have to get more creative as it relates to placement. But I'm getting ahead of myself. To your first point, just because a subwoofer is heavy doesn't negate the effectiveness of placing it in your primary listening area and walking your room (you don't have to literally crawl). Sure, it's inconvenient and may keep folks from doing the crawl, but it would work the same as if your sub is smaller or more manageable. Your second point about the crawl being subjective isn't wrong either, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good starting point. I too promote setting up your subs using measurements in the end, but the whole point of the "crawl" is to find a handful of suitable starting points to then drill down your setup and your settings --not to set it and forget it. Again, with irregular rooms, placement can vary wildly. For example, two of the "best" locations for subwoofers (according to this video and examples) in MY room are two of the worst --truly. In those locations I have dips in my bass response deeper than the Mariana's trench. But doing the "crawl" when I moved to my new home helped me to locate two or three additional spots in my room that could work, wouldn't you know it, subjective as it may have been, two of the three are pretty ideal. I later confirmed them with measurements. Your third point about frequency response or the frequency response of your main speakers is pretty much it's own video and honestly has nothing to do with subwoofers or their placement because you should get that right first before worrying at all about bass. In my room, my left speaker has a sizable dip right at 40Hz (assuming the speaker can play that low). I have learned to work around this dip by feathering in my subs to cover for it. I leave my left speaker in that space, because from 40Hz on up, most speakers measure linear in that spot --but I know this because I measured dozens of positions in my room prior to settling on the layout of my speakers and furniture. The fourth point having to do with multiple subs isn't quite accurate either --especially if you have an irregular room. Because doing the crawl may allow you to locate multiple locations with which to at least start from. One cannot make the assumption that everyone's room is symmetrical. Again, not saying the crawl is a set it and forget it solution, but it's a jumping off point that is free to try and when used in conjunction with auto room correction like Audyssey or DIRAC can be enough for most people. As for the last point about looking silly...everything about this hobby to a certain extent is silly. The fact that two grown men can playfully argue over the "best" way to setup or place a subwoofer is, by its very nature silly 😉. But the threat or promise of looking like an idiot shouldn't put someone off trying a technique that can honestly work as a jumping off point. As for the measurement tools and methods, that's all something people should do, but I don't think it's a one solution fits all situation to shame the "crawl" when it can actually be helpful as a general jumping off point. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the great work, always look forward to your videos. Regards, Andrew
I don’t know who this Andrew guy is, but he seems to know his home theater stuff and makes some valid points. He should consider starting a UA-cam channel. I think he would do well. 😋
Well said, Andrew. Would like to add that the sub crawl works best to narrow down the placement in a single sub setup from a handful of possible positions where you can physically place your subwoofer in your HT space and is not meant for situations where you have multiple subs. It is also ideal to make use of a frequency sweep instead of music as what you are wanting to hear is an even response when doing the crawl and music with only a few low frequency notes would not be able to do that. Enjoy watching both your channels, keep it up.
Hey Andrew, The crawl might be a good starting point, but most online publications, Facebook groups and forums put a lot of emphasis on the sub crawl and make it sound like that's all you need. That's simply not accurate and the video is an attempt to share that there is a much better way to achieve a smooth bass response. You mention the sub crawl isn't really a crawl, yet even well established sub manufacturers state and online publications promote the opposite. "Keep your head at/near knee level while listening (hence the term ‘subwoofer crawl’)" - SVS "Now get on your hands and knees and pay homage to the subwoofer (just kidding). Seriously, for the next part of this set-up, prepare to do some crawling (this is the part that could get you committed, but its all worth it!)" - Audioholics "Crawl around in places where you are able to place the subwoofer, and find the location where the sound has no audible volume boosts or dips. " - AV Gadgets Regarding subwoofer weight, it's the difficulty of moving it around (I do that anyways). Many of my subscribers (including me) have massively large subwoofers that physically do not fit in a seat. In my case, I would need to disassemble my theater seats (which is not practical. I agree the sub crawl could be a descent starting point. My main concern is this is not what is being conveyed online. It's inferred that "this is enough" which is not true if you are looking to get the most out your subwoofers. The point of the video is not to "shame the crawl" but to merely point out that it has many flaws and provide a better solution. At the end of the day, we all choose what we feel works best for our own setup. Some use room correction to set levels, while others use their ear, an SPL meter app on their phone, a dedicated SPL meter or a calibrated mic and REW. There's never "the only way", I'm simply stating the sub crawl isn't as amazing as many claim it to be. Have a blessed week
With the crawl your meant to use bass sweeps not content to get an idea across the frequencies. Using that solves one of your 5. Measuring is great but it comes at a cost and a massive time committment if you have lots of options. I wouldn't put people off it, as it's a great starter way for your average person with one sub and just got into the hobby, as for them a measurement mics would be a significant additional cost for them. But as you state diagonal opposite corners will work most of the time, assuming the room is a rectangle and you can afford 2 subs.
Hey there Michael, I have the Martin Logan Dynamo 1600X with the Anthem room correction paired with the Classic 9 ESLs. THAT made it SO easy. I had a big peak at 25 HZ. at the listening post in my 18x24' space. After ARC (from a minimum of 5 listening positions - you can go up to TEN!), the display showed the huge improvement! 25Hz, was leveled, and the range was extended to 15Hz. It is so cool plugging the laptop INTO the subwoofer directly when finished it sends that data to the sub and also does occasional firmware upgrades this way as well. You can switch ARC in and out on the fly from your device and hear the differences instantly. Can't say enough about how easy and effect this procedure is. Well, that is my experience with the Martin Logan/Anthem joint effort which is also found in their larger Estats as well.
Not exactly. The crawl can help you quickly identify a potential good location for subs in relation to seating locations. Yes , measuring ultimately gets you more information but it's mostly still never going to be perfect from all seating locations, where as peaks can be knocked down with EQ. You can anyways use a smaller sub for testing locations if necessar.. I say don't automatically discredit the crawl! It's a good searching method if not finalizing procedure
Dude……. Thank you 🙏🏼. The thought never crossed my mind. Now I have a RP-1600SW and I just can’t scoot this biggin around. Somehow I just never thought to use a older one to get a sense of things. I’ve been stuck with a absolute guess. Today I’m going to start dialing in a placement! Ty
I had my subs on either side of my left and right tower, but not near the corners. I moved my subs to the corners, a couple months ago, and what an improvement in volume. I wish I knew this a lot sooner. I have yet to get a microphone to dial them in further.
I have to disagree with your conclusion and your reasons. 1. You don't have to use the same subwoofer for the crawl that you'll be using for listening. Yes it needs to play nearly as deep in order to measure those frequencies, but you are largely (ha) measuring the room and not the subwoofer. So take a sub that fits in the chair, and measure. Also I might add, setting up a theater is a ton of work in the first place, so I don't really see moving a chair as a big deal. 2. It's not subjective if you are measuring and using REW. I would never crawl around the room and listen by ear. You're right, that's pointless, but that doesn't mean the subwoofer crawl doesn't work well. Use a mic and measure. 3. See 2. 4. Measure each position and use MSO software. It will tell you the best combination of sub positions AND delay for each sub. 5. :\
If someone is willing to use the subwoofer crawl in combination with measurements, I’m all for that. But most that teach the subwoofer crawl do not mention anything about taking measurements. That’s what I find is flawed.
I have a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 amplifier. It comes with a microphone stand and a microphone. If you use Room Perfect, you can easily place your subs in a corner, and no issues at all, because you can adapt anything, for instance time alignment. All done within half an hour. Magic.
I've done the subwoofer crawl and much of what he said is valid. It's never clear which spot sounds the best. And there are only so many possible placements that don't produce a dangerous or awkward location. Better to put the sub in the few possible locations to hear what sounds best. The best thing is to get multiple subs, a mini dsp, and figure out how to use REW.
I personally in my opinion solved all these problems. I just placing my subwoofer directly behind my chair now I understand not everyone can do this. I do have a dedicated bedroom that I have just for my small home theater usage. It is a smaller bedroom and I never had a problem with the deep deep base what I did have a problem was anything around 60 Hz or higher Now I no longer have those problems in my opinion placing it near field kind of gets rid of the room problem. The room has less effect on the overall output now like I said, I know everyone cannot do this and I completely understand but this has been my experience.
You are correct, but the most important reason is that the subwoofer interacts with the room. Placing the sub against a wall or in corner will boost the volume, moving the sub to the left or the right of the main speaker can have significant effect on peaks and nulls. In summery, placing the sub in the main seating position will not sound the same as placing it in the place where it sound best when you crawl. The correct way is to fiscally move the sub, measure with a calibrated mic in the main listening position using REW. Having said that, in most cases the best position to put the sub is not always feasible, but you can try different feasible locations and choose the best.
When i first started i put the sub on the MLP and moved the microphone around instead of moving the big heavy sub around. Its like the the sub crawl but with science.
Just use a small cheap sub for the crawl, it's VERY easy to detect with your ear, pick the right test content. I stopped watching after that because these excuses aren't justified.
You do what works for you sir. Nothing wrong with that. I’m curious how a cheap sub will tell you if you have a bill below 20Hz. Regardless of what you believe, measurements cannot be replaced by the subwoofer crawl.
@@erikandmarcie youth man is correct, any infrasonic bass content below 28hz will not be detected with a small sub, unless you build a good one which is expensive at which point you’re wasting your money on a small subwoofer only used for crawls.. You would then need to play a sweep from 10hz to 60hz and crawl around the room waiting for the sweep to cycle once before crawling again another 3 feet, it would take a long time but this theoretically would work. However you’re screwed when you want multiple sub placement because the crawl doesn’t work for that, you need time delay + phase shifting which can make a huge difference when using multiple subs placed different distances from one another and the listening position. If you want the best foolproof placement which I’ve found gives you the loudest bass + tactile immersive response, just do nearfield right behind the couch where you sit. Preferably more than one sub in an array behind each listening position
Another great vid, Youthman! Well reasoned. Reason #5 was the best, as evidenced by the video of you crawling around on all fours in the theater room! 🤣
This was sooooo helpful, Thanks Youthman!!!! I have 4 Klipsch Subs in the 4 corners of my media room, It sounds good, but from time to time with different songs something seems awry so I'm super glad that you explained that something CAN be done to improve how the 4 subs cooperate!!!!
Excellent video , I never did the sub crawl method and I got excellent low frequencies with my 4 12" inches Klipsch : 2 are located besides my front speakers , the third and fourth are located just below my surround back speakers
I think when you have got to the level of home cinema as you have, you do not need to worry about subwoofer placement given the setup you have. You ain't gonna find a better more convenient place for your subs liekwhere you already have them. Can't say I have ever heard of the crawl method, but considering I have a living room setup with a single 10-inch sub, I might give it a go.
I've never used the sub crawl method, probably because I was just lazy, but one thing not discussed is the height of your subs. I think this an also dramatically effects sound but u can't really mount subs to wall but u can stack them which was recommended to me by emotiva. I love the location of your particular subs youthman as they are much more centered height wise. I might try stacking 2 in each corner. Thanks for the video
Sure, using your ears alone on program material or single tones is not likely to result in the optimum overall setup. But it's not a case of either-or. The reciprocity trick still works. You can put your sub at your listening position and move your calibration microphone around the room. If your sub is big and heavy, it's all the more convenient. It may be inconvenient to elevate the sub to ear level at your listening position, but you can compensate by having the microphone at ear level, instead of crawling on the floor with it. If you're a super HT geek like Youthman and have theater seats bolted to your floor then, OK, it may be more trouble than it's worth. But if you have just a living room setup like me the reciprocity trick works fine. I just have to move the sofa out of the way and put the sub there.
I've seen so many different ways to place a subwoofer... it's crazy. I also just saw an article saying to keep all sides of the box at least 8 inches away from walls. Do you agree?
i nominate that HSU Research should rent out the ULS-15 MK2 specifically for this reason. it's +/- 1dB from 20hz to 160hz in its EQ1 setting and small and light enough to place most anywhere at 18" cube enclosure.
1st: Maybe you could've put few towels across the chair then a couple of boards or plywood, then set the sub on 2nd: for me if the sub sounds good in either corner then you know where to put the second sub 3rd: not all of us has the opportunity to use good equipment to set things up properly or have a movie room, I don't, so the crawl can work or get you close if you have a smaller room, I have the sb-4000 an I just walked around, my smaller sub sounded good up front but when I got the 4000 it sounded better in the back conner 4th: i don't think it's silly to do what you got to do, seen far worse 5th: sometimes the setup by ear is good not the best, but good
If it works for you, go for it. Regarding not everyone having the opportunity to use good equipment to set things up properly, all it takes is a $60 - $100 microphone.
When you find a dead spot just stitch another sub there and you also get more bass. Im on number 8. Maybe 2 or 3 more and ill be happy. I really like that video where the guy had marty subs in his ceiling. Thanks for the video
AHHH! - The subwoofer crawl. Been doing it for 15 years! It hurts! Then every movie soundtrack or music source has it's own unique bass mix! Bass likes to shoot off in a diagonal direction. ☹
@@China.zhongguomeng if you have multiple subs putting them in opposing corners like left and right speakers you don't really need to do any of this because more subs in different places fill out the room more
MiniDSP does a lot more than Audyssey can. If you can get a flat frequency response with Audyssey, then you don’t need a miniDSP. The only way to know would be to take measurements using something like a UMIk-1 and REW
While some of your views have merit,I feel you are discounting the benefits of the crawl. First of all most people do not have the monster size subs that you have and thus easier to place in the sitting position. 2) people will usually listen to many ranges of music/ movies scenes that allowing for multiple freq to be heard . My first experience with placing a sub was terrible I thought the sub was broken. As a novice I found the concept very helpful in hearing what the sub effect were in different positions.
That crawl is intended for music listeners not home theater. The types of listening conditions are different. Music is lively with the room and type of speakers for image. Theater room is more favored under controlled environments and is geared toward impact more than realistic lively image with placement that is subtle for constant listening as opposed to sporadic sounds that are occasional. Therefore that method is a start under practical conditions, but was not intended really for home theater. Home theater is more calculated for consistensy from home thearter to home theater ideally calibrating close to even levels/standards speaker to speaker. Music listening is more a feel, based off of what the room is giving similar to a music hall, arena club, etc. It's there to compliment what is being provided. Therefore caters a little more for enjoyment and favoring tweaks that are pleasing to the ear. The conditions change and are not absolute like in a movie theater. Therefore the set up should be handled differently. Although there are some parallels, you can't expect to have or use the same calibration for different conditions just because it's involving speakers. Hence why THX systems were great as they were not ideal for music, nor is it set up the same as music systems. They are great in their own lane, but require differnt rules/ methods of set up for differnt purposes. You will need some common ground to make a living room suitable for each purpose of listening to music and enjoying movies. One method/way may seem silly or useless for the other, but maybe a part of what makes or breaks the other.
I've never heard of the Sub Crawl. Sounds like it kinda works. I really like the way that you explained why it is not the best way to place a sub. Love the suggestions. Great video once again Mike!
What practically everyone (it seems) doesn't understand is that you have to take HEIGHT considerations into account when doing the subwoofer crawl. That is another reason it never works well. You can't simply plop your sub in your listening chair -- you have to place it AT EAR HEIGHT. Inches matter! Room modes are 3-dimensional, not 2-D, and height modes are just as problematic as length and width modes. Accordingly, you need to realize that optimal subwoofer placement, regardless of whether you use measurements or your ears, may require elevating your subs off the floor, perhaps even several feet. The flattest response may actually be hanging your sub 3 feet over your head, which of course is impractical for most people. The point is, don't make the mistake of assuming that placing your sub on the floor is the only option. For more info on room modes, which are in 3 dimensions, not 2, read the works of the world's foremost expert on psychoacoustics, Dr. Floyd Toole.
I think the biggest flaw in subwoofer crawl is that the subwoofer placement and where it’s facing is not mimicking your final placement after the crawl as the subwoofer is placed way high on the seat so there for it really is not giving you accurate/realistic sound.
No worries. I have Valencia Tuscany Ultimate Luxury in front and Oslo Ultimate Luxury in the rear. Search those models on my channel for reviews of them
A somewhat related question; the general advice is to use sub-woofers of the same type when going multi-sub. But with miniDSP, wherein you can fine-tune them individually, would it make mixing subs a possibility?
@@Youthman So if I were to stick to ported, would it be okay even if the 3rd/4th sub I add is a different model? Or would it still just be better to avoid mixing?
The Sub crawl is also flawed if you have a large SOUTH END OF A NORTH BOUND MOOSE of a body. For that part of your body would absorb a lot of bass. It does tickle you though.
Only way to get optimal results with subs is taking measurements. Glad you made a video about this because the sub crawl method is still circling around the Internet, and it’s really not a good method.
I’m still trying to figure out what an old-school youthman video is. I’ve been doing the same thing for five years. Home Theater tips, tours and reviews. Over the past year, I have added to that podcast and podcast clips.
Hey Youthman, I just wanted to ask you, is getting 4 sub woofers worth it? Right now I have 2 PB-3000’s, which I think works out well… but I could always use more bass, so I am trying to figure out if I should spend some more money, to get 2 more sub woofers, to try and get that physical bass impact, that I think I am trying to get to.
Do you have a calibrated mic and REW? If not, I would start there because you may find that your subwoofers are fighting against each other. I just need to be dialed in to provide you with that tactile bass.
@@Youthman no I have not calibrated my system beyond just using the software that comes with the Denon or Audacy, but I am thinking about buying the license, for the bass management I can buy through my Denon AVR, the A1H.. but if you think REW is fine, I just need to buy a better microphone, then I will consider doing that as well, or maybe instead of buying the software upgrade for my Denon to get Dirac…
Only reason I never got into the MiniDsp world: It doens´t have Xlr connections that I use for both of my M&K subs. I have a Marantz 8805 pre-amp and use the Audyssey MultiqX to room-eq using my PC. It does wonders on the bass as well. I remember an interview with the head of Trinnov where he spoke against the MiniDsp. Adding another device in the chains that adds noise I believe was his words. All sub management should be handled at the processor end , not by adding extra devices. Those were his thoughts. And also my rule of thumb. Just my thoughts, I could be wrong who knows :-)
@@Youthman That may be true. But still, it´s better to do all the bass correction in the digital domain on your processor, rather than adding another analogue device down the chain. Not all processores have this option though
That would be a more scientific approach that could work as long as your subwoofers are small enough to fit in your seat. But once again, what happens when you have multiple subwoofers. There’s still flaws with that approach.
@@Youthman Very true. I would have the mic setup in my MLP and still use the pink noise in the custom tone generator and RTA to get the subs placed properly and get their levels, crossover and variable phase control dialed in. I found it a more fluid and easy experience over taking sine sweep measurements over and over and over. You just have to make sure you have the correct settings for the RTA and I still take sine sweep measurement but after I'm done with each sub. For me, I do 2.2 so I start with my mains and get them placed properly then I start with the first sub and then introduce 2nd sub and the first subs and mains are still going. The thing with running 2 or more subs is making sure everything is playing nice with each other. I found in my room, I had to stay away from corners with the subs. No matter what I did with the variable phase, I had some crazy cancelation issues. And that's the thing I love about this, what works in one room, can be the complete opposite in another. There's no right or wrong and we're all here to learn from one another.
I have not used an AVR with four subwoofer outs yet to know how well it timelines and EQ is the subwoofers. It might work out great I would recommend picking up a calibrated microphone and learning to take basic frequency response measurements of your subwoofers, then see if you need how many DSP to fix any issues
The sub crawl is for sure rudimentary, but I don’t really think it’s for folks who are putting thousands of dollars into their subs. At that point the people in question should have already invested in a calibrated microphone and a software of their choosing. This is especially important with higher outputs because of how much the lower ranges interact with the listening space. If you’re the average joe who just bought a budget minded 12 inch I think it’s okay recommend the sub crawl. No sense in spending money on a mic and software that costs more than your sub. If someone were to have a 1000 dollar subwoofer budget I’d wholly recommend them buying the best sub they can for the money and using the sub crawl as their placement guide instead of spending money on equipment for measurements.
Completely agree. I always say that if you don't do measurements with a mic, you are completely blind in what you are doing when it comes to a sub. Doing a sub crawl is bad advice, you have no way of knowing what the frequency response is with just your ears. Taking measurements is the only way to do it. It's really not that expensive to buy a UMIK-1.
if you look at the a software read out to think you have the right setting then you accept it right, going by the readings. when its all about how it sounds and your ears do that, some people like boomy bass some like crisp bass and some like it thumping in you chest bass, so its up to you to your hearing how you set your system up.
There are definitely preferences when it comes to the amount of bass that we prefer, but having peaks and nulls in your response is not good for anyone’s preference. I’m not sure what crisp bass sounds like.
The sub crawl is just another peice to the puzzle imo. I always see it being talked down by older people who struggle moving bigger subs around or can’t be on all 4’s, no disrespect. But if your starting out it does help imo. There’s no replacement for displacement. And DSP, especially the 2x4HD by minidsp, is necessary for better bass response. Multi sub to help nulls, dsp for room correction, peak adjustments, time alignment, etc.
I’m 47 and have and will continue to move heavy subs and heavy speakers. That’s not the issue at all. I just truly do not see a need for it unless someone is absolutely not willing to learn REW and purchase a calibrated mic.
I pray, both standing up and kneeling. And I pray in the car while I’m driving, and while I’m taking a shower, and I pray on top of the mountain when I’m snowboarding, and while sitting on the beach, admiring God’s creation, the apostle Paul said to pray without ceasing and other words to be in a constant state of prayer All the time as often as possible. Absolutely if you’re in a trade, like a carpenter, a roofer, or flooring, knee pads are an absolute must. Most of my work is done on the computer with website development, graphic design, Photography, and video editing. I think I need some butt pads 😀
Thanks Michael great video like always. I have a question Michael I have a svs pb 3000 subwofer and I want to ad a svs pb4000 16 ultra. you think it's possible to do a mix if I bring down the volume down on the 16 to close match the pb 3000. Thanks and have a blessed day.
Great video Mike, I’d even add another one personally. The ideal spot might be right in the center of your room, or in some absolutely absurd position where the bass might sound great, but it’s completely impractical.
Time alignment is great for setting up your main listening position but what about the other seats? How does it work in large cinemas where listeners are scattered over a large area?
Great info. I think the crawl is more geared to the very new, basic setups. If you had 1K for your whole system, it would be a more effective tool. That sub would be very small. With larger speakers, most of us can't really move them anywhere in room anyways. I know I'm really pushing the "wife acceptance factor" as it is. I'm going the look into the 2X4 mini dsp from your advice here. Thanks! BTW, I believe I have one of your 15 Klipsch subs from a while back. Got it from a guy in Wesley Chapel, said it was from you:)
I would have no problem if the Subwoofer Crawl was promoted on websites, Facebook groups, and forums as a starting point or for a very simple set up. Unfortunately, that’s not the case we are “taught” that’s all you need to do which isn’t accurate. That is too funny regarding the sub Charles. What subwoofer did you buy?
@@Youthman R 115sw or SPL15, I have one of each. I think it was the RSW. Guy had Cornwalls in a 2 channel setup. Had a defective amp which I replaced successfully with the speaker exchange in Tampa.
say i get the subwoofer "perfect" but I liked the sound of my room using the subcrawl better? how do I know if what im hearing is correct? go to the net and let people tell me how to feel. LOL
If you place an in-wall sub in your listening position, most do not have a back box so you won’t get any bass due to the back wave cancelling the front wave.
I think it's mostly important to note who the subwoofer crawl is for. I've got about 10 friends with subwoofers and only 1 with one worth more than 200 bucks. If you know someone hooking up a soundbars w/ sub or a home theater in a box, maybe it's their first home theater and it's a 200$ Klipsch, they aren't going to buy a 100$ mic, the sub crawl is just the thing.👍👍 I hope everyone messing with DSP and 4 figure subs has found better ways to place their subs at that point, but the concept is probably oversold.
I can definitely see a valid point there, Joe. I guess my frustration is when online publications and even Subwoofer manufactures make it seem like that is the best way to figure out where to place your subwoofers I’m just pointing out the concept has many flaws.
The subwoofer crawl isn't supposed to be a replacement for actual measurements. This video is kind of silly in my opinion. It's not supposed to get you a perfectly measured even response from your subwoofer. It's just a "dirty" quick method to find a placement that sounds pleasing to your ears.
@@Youthman fair enough, maybe a bit overboard to call the video silly - I do appreciate the content so apologies if they can't across as a bit brash. There's no replacement for actual measurements. The subwoofer crawl isn't going to get you a perfect response, but I wouldn't totally discount it as an option for people without proper measuring equipment that are just looking for a pleasing sound in the living room.
The reason sub crawl is bull shit is because the sound that propagates from the sub in your listening position will not be 1:1 when you place it in the "sweet spot" location, that's just not how sound works. If you discover your "sweet spot" is the corner of the room, what the hell makes anyone think the sound waves emitting from the center of your room will respond the same way when placed between two walls? THIS is the reason sub crawl is nonsense.
Just curious, how experience will allow you to determine if you have a completely flat frequency response using only the sub crawl. It’s not possibleZ As I explained in the video, it is still flawed, even if you only have one subwoofer.
@@Youthman I'm with you Youthman! I meant experience with JTR speakers... Bottom line, everyone has their own perception or flavor for what they're expecting hear...
@@Youthman Yes sir! It's all about the numbers... I've met a few others who don't measure at all, while continue to make adjustments manually. See you at MWave...Let some explain the subwoofer crawl and prove to us how it works...
The Sub Crawl is FLAWED!!! - 5 Reasons Why
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It’s nice to see an old school Youthman video again! Just you talking to us from your theater! Great stuff👍
Thanks Justin. More of that in the works. 😉
I agree lately all I see is clips from him with the other two guys.
I have the same amount of “normal” home theater tips, tours and review videos, I have just added podcasts and podcast clips to the channel. The last few podcasts have been three hours long answering a ton of questions. Most people aren’t going to watch a three hour podcast so I chop up some of the clips answering specific questions.
I currently have about 15 products in for review
@Youthman Youthman I would definitely recommend putting timestamps in your livestreams for all the different questions being answered that way people can still go back and watch them and choose where to watch and listen in the video. You should be able to go back and do so after the livestream is all said and done.
I think the subwoofer crawl was more in mind for people who was just getting in to subwoofers and using smaller entry level subs. Also this has been around long before REW and similar were readily available. It’s a simple way for the average person to get in a position that might be better than where they may place it ascetically
I agree it can absolutely be a starting point, I just wish it was taught as that
Just to let you know, I have used the audyssey Mic for the Denon receiver with Rew. Not exactly sure how accurate it is, would be interesting if you could do a video with REW and use an audyssey Mic versus your calibrated Mic to see what the difference is. I have dual subs one sealed, one ported. I use Audyssey to EQ the dual subwoofers, but after using REW, I realized time alignment was off. I ended up switching my subwoofer distances on my Denon AVR little by little using REW. Now I have plus or minus 3dB from 18Hz to 80Hz. Bass is a lot better now. Thanks for your videos.
It is true. You place subwoofers where they fit and has electricity. Use REW / minidsp 2X4HD to optimize for multiple subwoofers.
Michael, great and informative video, but I think you're downplaying how the "crawl" is meant as a starting point and not as the end all be all. First off, not every room has four walls or is symmetrical like the diagrams you show from GIK Acoustics, which in turn means that users will have to get more creative as it relates to placement. But I'm getting ahead of myself.
To your first point, just because a subwoofer is heavy doesn't negate the effectiveness of placing it in your primary listening area and walking your room (you don't have to literally crawl). Sure, it's inconvenient and may keep folks from doing the crawl, but it would work the same as if your sub is smaller or more manageable.
Your second point about the crawl being subjective isn't wrong either, but that doesn't mean it can't be a good starting point. I too promote setting up your subs using measurements in the end, but the whole point of the "crawl" is to find a handful of suitable starting points to then drill down your setup and your settings --not to set it and forget it. Again, with irregular rooms, placement can vary wildly. For example, two of the "best" locations for subwoofers (according to this video and examples) in MY room are two of the worst --truly. In those locations I have dips in my bass response deeper than the Mariana's trench. But doing the "crawl" when I moved to my new home helped me to locate two or three additional spots in my room that could work, wouldn't you know it, subjective as it may have been, two of the three are pretty ideal. I later confirmed them with measurements.
Your third point about frequency response or the frequency response of your main speakers is pretty much it's own video and honestly has nothing to do with subwoofers or their placement because you should get that right first before worrying at all about bass. In my room, my left speaker has a sizable dip right at 40Hz (assuming the speaker can play that low). I have learned to work around this dip by feathering in my subs to cover for it. I leave my left speaker in that space, because from 40Hz on up, most speakers measure linear in that spot --but I know this because I measured dozens of positions in my room prior to settling on the layout of my speakers and furniture.
The fourth point having to do with multiple subs isn't quite accurate either --especially if you have an irregular room. Because doing the crawl may allow you to locate multiple locations with which to at least start from. One cannot make the assumption that everyone's room is symmetrical. Again, not saying the crawl is a set it and forget it solution, but it's a jumping off point that is free to try and when used in conjunction with auto room correction like Audyssey or DIRAC can be enough for most people.
As for the last point about looking silly...everything about this hobby to a certain extent is silly. The fact that two grown men can playfully argue over the "best" way to setup or place a subwoofer is, by its very nature silly 😉. But the threat or promise of looking like an idiot shouldn't put someone off trying a technique that can honestly work as a jumping off point.
As for the measurement tools and methods, that's all something people should do, but I don't think it's a one solution fits all situation to shame the "crawl" when it can actually be helpful as a general jumping off point. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the great work, always look forward to your videos.
Regards,
Andrew
I don’t know who this Andrew guy is, but he seems to know his home theater stuff and makes some valid points. He should consider starting a UA-cam channel. I think he would do well. 😋
I'll be damned if I'm going to look silly crawling around my room!! Now if you'll excuse me, my daughter is asking for a pony ride... 🐴🫏 😉
Well said, Andrew. Would like to add that the sub crawl works best to narrow down the placement in a single sub setup from a handful of possible positions where you can physically place your subwoofer in your HT space and is not meant for situations where you have multiple subs.
It is also ideal to make use of a frequency sweep instead of music as what you are wanting to hear is an even response when doing the crawl and music with only a few low frequency notes would not be able to do that.
Enjoy watching both your channels, keep it up.
Hey Andrew,
The crawl might be a good starting point, but most online publications, Facebook groups and forums put a lot of emphasis on the sub crawl and make it sound like that's all you need. That's simply not accurate and the video is an attempt to share that there is a much better way to achieve a smooth bass response.
You mention the sub crawl isn't really a crawl, yet even well established sub manufacturers state and online publications promote the opposite.
"Keep your head at/near knee level while listening (hence the term ‘subwoofer crawl’)" - SVS
"Now get on your hands and knees and pay homage to the subwoofer (just kidding). Seriously, for the next part of this set-up, prepare to do some crawling (this is the part that could get you committed, but its all worth it!)" - Audioholics
"Crawl around in places where you are able to place the subwoofer, and find the location where the sound has no audible volume boosts or dips. " - AV Gadgets
Regarding subwoofer weight, it's the difficulty of moving it around (I do that anyways). Many of my subscribers (including me) have massively large subwoofers that physically do not fit in a seat. In my case, I would need to disassemble my theater seats (which is not practical.
I agree the sub crawl could be a descent starting point. My main concern is this is not what is being conveyed online. It's inferred that "this is enough" which is not true if you are looking to get the most out your subwoofers.
The point of the video is not to "shame the crawl" but to merely point out that it has many flaws and provide a better solution.
At the end of the day, we all choose what we feel works best for our own setup.
Some use room correction to set levels, while others use their ear, an SPL meter app on their phone, a dedicated SPL meter or a calibrated mic and REW. There's never "the only way", I'm simply stating the sub crawl isn't as amazing as many claim it to be.
Have a blessed week
With the crawl your meant to use bass sweeps not content to get an idea across the frequencies. Using that solves one of your 5. Measuring is great but it comes at a cost and a massive time committment if you have lots of options. I wouldn't put people off it, as it's a great starter way for your average person with one sub and just got into the hobby, as for them a measurement mics would be a significant additional cost for them. But as you state diagonal opposite corners will work most of the time, assuming the room is a rectangle and you can afford 2 subs.
Agree. Listen to sweeps to listen to change in SPL in all frequencies. Not content.
Hey there Michael, I have the Martin Logan Dynamo 1600X with the Anthem room correction paired with the Classic 9 ESLs. THAT made it SO easy. I had a big peak at 25 HZ. at the listening post in my 18x24' space.
After ARC (from a minimum of 5 listening positions - you can go up to TEN!), the display showed the huge improvement! 25Hz, was leveled, and the range was extended to 15Hz.
It is so cool plugging the laptop INTO the subwoofer directly when finished it sends that data to the sub and also does occasional firmware upgrades this way as well.
You can switch ARC in and out on the fly from your device and hear the differences instantly. Can't say enough about how easy and effect this procedure is.
Well, that is my experience with the Martin Logan/Anthem joint effort which is also found in their larger Estats as well.
That’s great to hear. Using measurements is the best method.
@@Youthman Thanks for the encouragement and all of your great video presentations !😊
I appreciate you, Gary
Not exactly. The crawl can help you quickly identify a potential good location for subs in relation to seating locations. Yes , measuring ultimately gets you more information but it's mostly still never going to be perfect from all seating locations, where as peaks can be knocked down with EQ. You can anyways use a smaller sub for testing locations if necessar.. I say don't automatically discredit the crawl! It's a good searching method if not finalizing procedure
I do love your approach Brian. I just wish more people would state it that way, rather than promoting it as “this is all you need to do”.
Dude……. Thank you 🙏🏼. The thought never crossed my mind. Now I have a RP-1600SW and I just can’t scoot this biggin around. Somehow I just never thought to use a older one to get a sense of things. I’ve been stuck with a absolute guess. Today I’m going to start dialing in a placement! Ty
I had my subs on either side of my left and right tower, but not near the corners. I moved my subs to the corners, a couple months ago, and what an improvement in volume. I wish I knew this a lot sooner. I have yet to get a microphone to dial them in further.
I have never had luck with crawling. Dual subwoofers pretty much took care of a majority of issues I have ever had with bass
Nice James!
Some old school bassheads will be coming for Youthman😅😂
I’m ok with that. 😂
@Regular Guy Audio very true🤣😂. Hope you are well my friend♥️♥️
Uh oh
I have to disagree with your conclusion and your reasons.
1. You don't have to use the same subwoofer for the crawl that you'll be using for listening. Yes it needs to play nearly as deep in order to measure those frequencies, but you are largely (ha) measuring the room and not the subwoofer. So take a sub that fits in the chair, and measure. Also I might add, setting up a theater is a ton of work in the first place, so I don't really see moving a chair as a big deal.
2. It's not subjective if you are measuring and using REW. I would never crawl around the room and listen by ear. You're right, that's pointless, but that doesn't mean the subwoofer crawl doesn't work well. Use a mic and measure.
3. See 2.
4. Measure each position and use MSO software. It will tell you the best combination of sub positions AND delay for each sub.
5. :\
If someone is willing to use the subwoofer crawl in combination with measurements, I’m all for that. But most that teach the subwoofer crawl do not mention anything about taking measurements. That’s what I find is flawed.
I have a Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 amplifier. It comes with a microphone stand and a microphone. If you use Room Perfect, you can easily place your subs in a corner, and no issues at all, because you can adapt anything, for instance time alignment. All done within half an hour. Magic.
I've done the subwoofer crawl and much of what he said is valid. It's never clear which spot sounds the best. And there are only so many possible placements that don't produce a dangerous or awkward location. Better to put the sub in the few possible locations to hear what sounds best. The best thing is to get multiple subs, a mini dsp, and figure out how to use REW.
I personally in my opinion solved all these problems. I just placing my subwoofer directly behind my chair now I understand not everyone can do this. I do have a dedicated bedroom that I have just for my small home theater usage. It is a smaller bedroom and I never had a problem with the deep deep base what I did have a problem was anything around 60 Hz or higher Now I no longer have those problems in my opinion placing it near field kind of gets rid of the room problem. The room has less effect on the overall output now like I said, I know everyone cannot do this and I completely understand but this has been my experience.
You are correct, but the most important reason is that the subwoofer interacts with the room. Placing the sub against a wall or in corner will boost the volume, moving the sub to the left or the right of the main speaker can have significant effect on peaks and nulls. In summery, placing the sub in the main seating position will not sound the same as placing it in the place where it sound best when you crawl. The correct way is to fiscally move the sub, measure with a calibrated mic in the main listening position using REW. Having said that, in most cases the best position to put the sub is not always feasible, but you can try different feasible locations and choose the best.
Totally agree, just get a UMIK and REW and measure different positions and you will get a much more accurate result.
When i first started i put the sub on the MLP and moved the microphone around instead of moving the big heavy sub around. Its like the the sub crawl but with science.
Holy smokes.
The crawl is a DIY solution.
If your equipment is worth 100k hire a damn sound engineer.
Just use a small cheap sub for the crawl, it's VERY easy to detect with your ear, pick the right test content. I stopped watching after that because these excuses aren't justified.
You do what works for you sir. Nothing wrong with that. I’m curious how a cheap sub will tell you if you have a bill below 20Hz. Regardless of what you believe, measurements cannot be replaced by the subwoofer crawl.
@@erikandmarcie youth man is correct, any infrasonic bass content below 28hz will not be detected with a small sub, unless you build a good one which is expensive at which point you’re wasting your money on a small subwoofer only used for crawls..
You would then need to play a sweep from 10hz to 60hz and crawl around the room waiting for the sweep to cycle once before crawling again another 3 feet, it would take a long time but this theoretically would work. However you’re screwed when you want multiple sub placement because the crawl doesn’t work for that, you need time delay + phase shifting which can make a huge difference when using multiple subs placed different distances from one another and the listening position.
If you want the best foolproof placement which I’ve found gives you the loudest bass + tactile immersive response, just do nearfield right behind the couch where you sit. Preferably more than one sub in an array behind each listening position
Another great vid, Youthman! Well reasoned.
Reason #5 was the best, as evidenced by the video of you crawling around on all fours in the theater room! 🤣
Haha
This was sooooo helpful, Thanks Youthman!!!! I have 4 Klipsch Subs in the 4 corners of my media room, It sounds good, but from time to time with different songs something seems awry so I'm super glad that you explained that something CAN be done to improve how the 4 subs cooperate!!!!
Glad you found the video helpful
Steve from Home Theater Gurus agrees with you. His Episode 10 talks about the problems and alternatives to the sub crawl.
Good video. The “cheesy” expressions on your face during your crawl, made me laugh!
Just having some fun 🤣🤣🤣
Excellent video , I never did the sub crawl method and I got excellent low frequencies with my 4 12" inches Klipsch : 2 are located besides my front speakers , the third and fourth are located just below my surround back speakers
Thank you kindly.
I think when you have got to the level of home cinema as you have, you do not need to worry about subwoofer placement given the setup you have. You ain't gonna find a better more convenient place for your subs liekwhere you already have them. Can't say I have ever heard of the crawl method, but considering I have a living room setup with a single 10-inch sub, I might give it a go.
I've never used the sub crawl method, probably because I was just lazy, but one thing not discussed is the height of your subs. I think this an also dramatically effects sound but u can't really mount subs to wall but u can stack them which was recommended to me by emotiva. I love the location of your particular subs youthman as they are much more centered height wise. I might try stacking 2 in each corner. Thanks for the video
Sure, using your ears alone on program material or single tones is not likely to result in the optimum overall setup. But it's not a case of either-or. The reciprocity trick still works. You can put your sub at your listening position and move your calibration microphone around the room. If your sub is big and heavy, it's all the more convenient. It may be inconvenient to elevate the sub to ear level at your listening position, but you can compensate by having the microphone at ear level, instead of crawling on the floor with it. If you're a super HT geek like Youthman and have theater seats bolted to your floor then, OK, it may be more trouble than it's worth. But if you have just a living room setup like me the reciprocity trick works fine. I just have to move the sofa out of the way and put the sub there.
I've seen so many different ways to place a subwoofer... it's crazy. I also just saw an article saying to keep all sides of the box at least 8 inches away from walls. Do you agree?
I’ve never heard a specific measurement distance from the wall, but I typically do not placed him directly up against the wall
Useful information! Thanks for sharing 👍🏻.
i nominate that HSU Research should rent out the ULS-15 MK2 specifically for this reason. it's +/- 1dB from 20hz to 160hz in its EQ1 setting and small and light enough to place most anywhere at 18" cube enclosure.
1st: Maybe you could've put few towels across the chair then a couple of boards or plywood, then set the sub on
2nd: for me if the sub sounds good in either corner then you know where to put the second sub
3rd: not all of us has the opportunity to use good equipment to set things up properly or have a movie room, I don't, so the crawl can work or get you close if you have a smaller room, I have the sb-4000 an I just walked around, my smaller sub sounded good up front but when I got the 4000 it sounded better in the back conner
4th: i don't think it's silly to do what you got to do, seen far worse
5th: sometimes the setup by ear is good not the best, but good
If it works for you, go for it. Regarding not everyone having the opportunity to use good equipment to set things up properly, all it takes is a $60 - $100 microphone.
When you find a dead spot just stitch another sub there and you also get more bass. Im on number 8. Maybe 2 or 3 more and ill be happy. I really like that video where the guy had marty subs in his ceiling. Thanks for the video
On point Mike!
Thanks Marc
Smart button-up shirt, Michael.
Oh, and many great insights shared in this vid again.
Thank you kindly
I have a JBL Synthesis with independent sub inputs. It has Dirac w/full EQ and Bass Management...Do I even need a mini dsp?
I am glad see you back in your own home theater doing video
AHHH! - The subwoofer crawl. Been doing it for 15 years! It hurts!
Then every movie soundtrack or music source has it's own unique bass mix!
Bass likes to shoot off in a diagonal direction. ☹
Can I still use the same method if I have two or more subwoofers?
@@China.zhongguomeng if you have multiple subs putting them in opposing corners like left and right speakers you don't really need to do any of this because more subs in different places fill out the room more
Do you need the miniDSP if your AVR has left and right outs? For only two subs of course. Also, thoughts on wireless transmitters?
MiniDSP does a lot more than Audyssey can. If you can get a flat frequency response with Audyssey, then you don’t need a miniDSP. The only way to know would be to take measurements using something like a UMIk-1 and REW
While some of your views have merit,I feel you are discounting the benefits of the crawl. First of all most people do not have the monster size subs that you have and thus easier to place in the sitting position. 2) people will usually listen to many ranges of music/ movies scenes that allowing for multiple freq to be heard . My first experience with placing a sub was terrible I thought the sub was broken. As a novice I found the concept very helpful in hearing what the sub effect were in different positions.
That crawl is intended for music listeners not home theater. The types of listening conditions are different. Music is lively with the room and type of speakers for image. Theater room is more favored under controlled environments and is geared toward impact more than realistic lively image with placement that is subtle for constant listening as opposed to sporadic sounds that are occasional. Therefore that method is a start under practical conditions, but was not intended really for home theater. Home theater is more calculated for consistensy from home thearter to home theater ideally calibrating close to even levels/standards speaker to speaker. Music listening is more a feel, based off of what the room is giving similar to a music hall, arena club, etc. It's there to compliment what is being provided. Therefore caters a little more for enjoyment and favoring tweaks that are pleasing to the ear. The conditions change and are not absolute like in a movie theater. Therefore the set up should be handled differently. Although there are some parallels, you can't expect to have or use the same calibration for different conditions just because it's involving speakers. Hence why THX systems were great as they were not ideal for music, nor is it set up the same as music systems. They are great in their own lane, but require differnt rules/ methods of set up for differnt purposes. You will need some common ground to make a living room suitable for each purpose of listening to music and enjoying movies. One method/way may seem silly or useless for the other, but maybe a part of what makes or breaks the other.
I've never heard of the Sub Crawl. Sounds like it kinda works. I really like the way that you explained why it is not the best way to place a sub. Love the suggestions. Great video once again Mike!
Thanks Matt. It’s an old technique that continues to get promoted.
What practically everyone (it seems) doesn't understand is that you have to take HEIGHT considerations into account when doing the subwoofer crawl. That is another reason it never works well. You can't simply plop your sub in your listening chair -- you have to place it AT EAR HEIGHT. Inches matter! Room modes are 3-dimensional, not 2-D, and height modes are just as problematic as length and width modes. Accordingly, you need to realize that optimal subwoofer placement, regardless of whether you use measurements or your ears, may require elevating your subs off the floor, perhaps even several feet. The flattest response may actually be hanging your sub 3 feet over your head, which of course is impractical for most people. The point is, don't make the mistake of assuming that placing your sub on the floor is the only option. For more info on room modes, which are in 3 dimensions, not 2, read the works of the world's foremost expert on psychoacoustics, Dr. Floyd Toole.
I think the biggest flaw in subwoofer crawl is that the subwoofer placement and where it’s facing is not mimicking your final placement after the crawl as the subwoofer is placed way high on the seat so there for it really is not giving you accurate/realistic sound.
@Youthman, sorry that this isn’t about the “Sub Crawl” but just curious, what are your chairs?
No worries. I have Valencia Tuscany Ultimate Luxury in front and Oslo Ultimate Luxury in the rear. Search those models on my channel for reviews of them
@Youthman, thank you for your reply! Love the look of them!
Thanks David hopefully the videos are helpful if you have any questions feel free to reach out
A somewhat related question; the general advice is to use sub-woofers of the same type when going multi-sub. But with miniDSP, wherein you can fine-tune them individually, would it make mixing subs a possibility?
A possibility,sure. But still not recommended. The minidsp is a small dsp and will have severe problems to phase align the subs.
@@12P14D22C Thanks for the information; very pertinent.
Mixing sealed and ported is difficult. I recommend sticking with one or the other.
@@Youthman So if I were to stick to ported, would it be okay even if the 3rd/4th sub I add is a different model? Or would it still just be better to avoid mixing?
There’s nothing wrong with mixing brands or size of drivers, it’s just easier to calibrate if they’re all identical
The Sub crawl is also flawed if you have a large SOUTH END OF A NORTH BOUND MOOSE of a body. For that part of your body would absorb a lot of bass. It does tickle you though.
Only way to get optimal results with subs is taking measurements. Glad you made a video about this because the sub crawl method is still circling around the Internet, and it’s really not a good method.
Thanks Frank. It’s literally everywhere even looking on major audio websites and even many sub manufacturers still recommend it to this day.
I’m in complete agreement. It’s an archaic method.
This 👆👆👆
Amazing old school youthman videos!!!!! Miss them....
I’m still trying to figure out what an old-school youthman video is. I’ve been doing the same thing for five years. Home Theater tips, tours and reviews. Over the past year, I have added to that podcast and podcast clips.
Hey Youthman, I just wanted to ask you, is getting 4 sub woofers worth it? Right now I have 2 PB-3000’s, which I think works out well… but I could always use more bass, so I am trying to figure out if I should spend some more money, to get 2 more sub woofers, to try and get that physical bass impact, that I think I am trying to get to.
Do you have a calibrated mic and REW? If not, I would start there because you may find that your subwoofers are fighting against each other. I just need to be dialed in to provide you with that tactile bass.
@@Youthman no I have not calibrated my system beyond just using the software that comes with the Denon or Audacy, but I am thinking about buying the license, for the bass management I can buy through my Denon AVR, the A1H.. but if you think REW is fine, I just need to buy a better microphone, then I will consider doing that as well, or maybe instead of buying the software upgrade for my Denon to get Dirac…
Nice. Youthman if you can. Can you do a video on sound treatments. What brand you’re using. Thanks.
helpful. But Avr calibration like Dirac room correction also works
What is the distance (12 feet ) between screen and front seat for the End Game 11.4.6 theater?
Only reason I never got into the MiniDsp world: It doens´t have Xlr connections that I use for both of my M&K subs. I have a Marantz 8805 pre-amp and use the Audyssey MultiqX to room-eq using my PC. It does wonders on the bass as well. I remember an interview with the head of Trinnov where he spoke against the MiniDsp. Adding another device in the chains that adds noise I believe was his words. All sub management should be handled at the processor end , not by adding extra devices. Those were his thoughts. And also my rule of thumb. Just my thoughts, I could be wrong who knows :-)
If the miniDSP adds noise, you’ll never hear it.
@@Youthman That may be true. But still, it´s better to do all the bass correction in the digital domain on your processor, rather than adding another analogue device down the chain. Not all processores have this option though
I would like to add I think number two is the most important and proper microphone and software can hear better than you can
100%
Love this. I had a similar issue. I have two 18" subs and i could never put it on my seat. lol
A bit awkward isn’t it. 🤣
What if you replaced your ears with a calibrated mic and using a RTA and a custom tone generator playing pink noise in your bass region?
That would be a more scientific approach that could work as long as your subwoofers are small enough to fit in your seat. But once again, what happens when you have multiple subwoofers. There’s still flaws with that approach.
@@Youthman Very true. I would have the mic setup in my MLP and still use the pink noise in the custom tone generator and RTA to get the subs placed properly and get their levels, crossover and variable phase control dialed in. I found it a more fluid and easy experience over taking sine sweep measurements over and over and over. You just have to make sure you have the correct settings for the RTA and I still take sine sweep measurement but after I'm done with each sub. For me, I do 2.2 so I start with my mains and get them placed properly then I start with the first sub and then introduce 2nd sub and the first subs and mains are still going. The thing with running 2 or more subs is making sure everything is playing nice with each other. I found in my room, I had to stay away from corners with the subs. No matter what I did with the variable phase, I had some crazy cancelation issues. And that's the thing I love about this, what works in one room, can be the complete opposite in another. There's no right or wrong and we're all here to learn from one another.
Some valid points
Hey @Youthman do you know if you'll be receiving a new klipsch subwoofer to review? I'm so eager to see how they fare.
More than likely. I haven’t requested one yet as I’m trying to get through the many products I currently have in for review.
I have the x3800h and it has 4 individual sub outputs would I need the minidsp 2x4hd or just REW with the umik one? Thanks
I have not used an AVR with four subwoofer outs yet to know how well it timelines and EQ is the subwoofers. It might work out great I would recommend picking up a calibrated microphone and learning to take basic frequency response measurements of your subwoofers, then see if you need how many DSP to fix any issues
Hello Michael
I never have done the bass crawl, I used my ARC setting and it did all the work for me ( genesis ) by Anthem .
The sub crawl is for sure rudimentary, but I don’t really think it’s for folks who are putting thousands of dollars into their subs. At that point the people in question should have already invested in a calibrated microphone and a software of their choosing. This is especially important with higher outputs because of how much the lower ranges interact with the listening space.
If you’re the average joe who just bought a budget minded 12 inch I think it’s okay recommend the sub crawl. No sense in spending money on a mic and software that costs more than your sub. If someone were to have a 1000 dollar subwoofer budget I’d wholly recommend them buying the best sub they can for the money and using the sub crawl as their placement guide instead of spending money on equipment for measurements.
Completely agree. I always say that if you don't do measurements with a mic, you are completely blind in what you are doing when it comes to a sub. Doing a sub crawl is bad advice, you have no way of knowing what the frequency response is with just your ears. Taking measurements is the only way to do it. It's really not that expensive to buy a UMIK-1.
if you look at the a software read out to think you have the right setting then you accept it right, going by the readings. when its all about how it sounds and your ears do that, some people like boomy bass some like crisp bass and some like it thumping in you chest bass, so its up to you to your hearing how you set your system up.
There are definitely preferences when it comes to the amount of bass that we prefer, but having peaks and nulls in your response is not good for anyone’s preference. I’m not sure what crisp bass sounds like.
the sub crawl should be a dance move lol
🤣🤣🤣
😂 great video. My sub line is a complete straight line in audessye multieq app, is that good?
The sub crawl is just another peice to the puzzle imo. I always see it being talked down by older people who struggle moving bigger subs around or can’t be on all 4’s, no disrespect. But if your starting out it does help imo. There’s no replacement for displacement.
And DSP, especially the 2x4HD by minidsp, is necessary for better bass response. Multi sub to help nulls, dsp for room correction, peak adjustments, time alignment, etc.
I’m 47 and have and will continue to move heavy subs and heavy speakers. That’s not the issue at all. I just truly do not see a need for it unless someone is absolutely not willing to learn REW and purchase a calibrated mic.
@@Youthman If you’re not using good knee pads now, you will be! :^) Take care of your knees. DAMHIKT.
I’m not on my knees very often. No need for knee pads yet.
@@Youthman I pray on my knees. You pray standing up? :^) I’m old and have worked in the trades, and I wish I’d noticed God’s gift of knee pads sooner.
I pray, both standing up and kneeling. And I pray in the car while I’m driving, and while I’m taking a shower, and I pray on top of the mountain when I’m snowboarding, and while sitting on the beach, admiring God’s creation, the apostle Paul said to pray without ceasing and other words to be in a constant state of prayer All the time as often as possible.
Absolutely if you’re in a trade, like a carpenter, a roofer, or flooring, knee pads are an absolute must. Most of my work is done on the computer with website development, graphic design, Photography, and video editing. I think I need some butt pads 😀
Perhaps just use the subwoofer crawl to avoid the disastrously bad locations for subwoofers on 2 channel systems without DSP?
I could see that. I don’t believe it’s useless, I just think there’s better ways using measurements.
Thanks Michael great video like always.
I have a question Michael I have a svs pb 3000 subwofer and I want to ad a svs pb4000 16 ultra. you think it's possible to do a mix if I bring down the volume down on the 16 to close match the pb 3000. Thanks and have a blessed day.
Absolutely nothing wrong with mixing different size subwoofers. I just recommend keeping them all sealed or all ported and not mixing the two.
Just bought a SVS 2000 SB Pro, did audessey multieq, no crawling here 😂
Great video Mike, I’d even add another one personally. The ideal spot might be right in the center of your room, or in some absolutely absurd position where the bass might sound great, but it’s completely impractical.
For sure!
I was all ready to fight Michael and then he proceeded to make complete sense for 15 minutes. So disappointing 🤣😂
🤣🤣🤣
Yea it’s bizarre it’s still being encouraged.
Oh it's definitely flawed. But it's good enough for the average person, I'd say. I bet you're happy you had that little Klipsch to demo this! haha
I agree I think it is of some use. I just think there’s better methods out there.
all audio is subjective. . . just like beauty.
Time alignment is great for setting up your main listening position but what about the other seats? How does it work in large cinemas where listeners are scattered over a large area?
Often times when you attempt to perfectly EQ for one position, it’s at the detriment of the other seats. Sometimes less is more.
Great info. I think the crawl is more geared to the very new, basic setups. If you had 1K for your whole system, it would be a more effective tool. That sub would be very small. With larger speakers, most of us can't really move them anywhere in room anyways. I know I'm really pushing the "wife acceptance factor" as it is. I'm going the look into the 2X4 mini dsp from your advice here. Thanks! BTW, I believe I have one of your 15 Klipsch subs from a while back. Got it from a guy in Wesley Chapel, said it was from you:)
I would have no problem if the Subwoofer Crawl was promoted on websites, Facebook groups, and forums as a starting point or for a very simple set up. Unfortunately, that’s not the case we are “taught” that’s all you need to do which isn’t accurate.
That is too funny regarding the sub Charles. What subwoofer did you buy?
@@Youthman R 115sw or SPL15, I have one of each. I think it was the RSW. Guy had Cornwalls in a 2 channel setup. Had a defective amp which I replaced successfully with the speaker exchange in Tampa.
I think it is best to go to the theatre and then discuss things, if the movie had anything that was worth discussing, that is.
Best use of money and time is to save up and attempt hire Brad to use REW to fix my set-up. 👍😎👍
say i get the subwoofer "perfect" but I liked the sound of my room using the subcrawl better? how do I know if what im hearing is correct? go to the net and let people tell me how to feel. LOL
Measurements will tell you if you have a flat frequency response. If you have massive peaks and bulls, that’s not correct.
Excellent...
Does this also work in wall subs?
If you place an in-wall sub in your listening position, most do not have a back box so you won’t get any bass due to the back wave cancelling the front wave.
I think it's mostly important to note who the subwoofer crawl is for. I've got about 10 friends with subwoofers and only 1 with one worth more than 200 bucks. If you know someone hooking up a soundbars w/ sub or a home theater in a box, maybe it's their first home theater and it's a 200$ Klipsch, they aren't going to buy a 100$ mic, the sub crawl is just the thing.👍👍 I hope everyone messing with DSP and 4 figure subs has found better ways to place their subs at that point, but the concept is probably oversold.
I can definitely see a valid point there, Joe. I guess my frustration is when online publications and even Subwoofer manufactures make it seem like that is the best way to figure out where to place your subwoofers I’m just pointing out the concept has many flaws.
@@Youthman I'm with you youthman, people really need to starting adding caveats. A beginner way, definitely not the "best" way
That would be a much better approach in my opinion
Yup that is always what I thought
I have monoprice monolith 15 that weighs 200lbs, I googled how to do the sub crawl with a heavy sub and apparently the answer is I don't 😂
The subwoofer crawl isn't supposed to be a replacement for actual measurements. This video is kind of silly in my opinion. It's not supposed to get you a perfectly measured even response from your subwoofer. It's just a "dirty" quick method to find a placement that sounds pleasing to your ears.
You and I both understand that, but major publications, forums, and Facebook group do not promote it as such.
Not sure how the video can be silly if I’m providing a better method.
@@Youthman fair enough, maybe a bit overboard to call the video silly - I do appreciate the content so apologies if they can't across as a bit brash. There's no replacement for actual measurements. The subwoofer crawl isn't going to get you a perfect response, but I wouldn't totally discount it as an option for people without proper measuring equipment that are just looking for a pleasing sound in the living room.
I suggest playing the song Bad Guy by Billie Eilish on loop while doing the sub crawl 😂
The reason sub crawl is bull shit is because the sound that propagates from the sub in your listening position will not be 1:1 when you place it in the "sweet spot" location, that's just not how sound works. If you discover your "sweet spot" is the corner of the room, what the hell makes anyone think the sound waves emitting from the center of your room will respond the same way when placed between two walls? THIS is the reason sub crawl is nonsense.
I always thought it was stupid to do. Never did it, never going to do it.
Jus use a sub that's ez to move around.....certified complainer
🤣🤣🤣
I’m to old to crawl around the floor, stuck it in the middle under the screen and forgot about it.
Imagine taking some Ultimax 18” and putting them in your seating position? 😂
I have 4 identical subs and still have room modes.
Life is not about calculation but personal taste
Lol! Youthman! This doesn't apply if you have experience or have JTR Syndrome...Lol
But, it also started for One to Two Sub's...
Just curious, how experience will allow you to determine if you have a completely flat frequency response using only the sub crawl. It’s not possibleZ As I explained in the video, it is still flawed, even if you only have one subwoofer.
@@Youthman I'm with you Youthman! I meant experience with JTR speakers... Bottom line, everyone has their own perception or flavor for what they're expecting hear...
Even with JTR Subwoofers, without taking measurements, you still would be unaware of peaks and nulls in your frequency response.
@@Youthman Yes sir! It's all about the numbers... I've met a few others who don't measure at all, while continue to make adjustments manually.
See you at MWave...Let some explain the subwoofer crawl and prove to us how it works...
I’m definitely excited for MWAVE and am looking forward to hanging out with you.
It would be #5 for me. My wife would think im crazy for sure