Howard C. Mahler (born c.1952) is a role-playing game author and actuary who has contributed to Different Worlds magazine. He is probably best known as for starting the PrinceCon game convention in 1976 on the campus of Princeton University which is one of the oldest fantasy role-playing game conventions in the United States. He obtained a master's degree in mathematics from Princeton University in 1976.
In our AD&D 1e game, we recently killed not one but two red dragons. We got extremely lucky, the dragons were not outside their lair and one of them was sleeping. A long time ago we found some magic oil that we suspected would grant Fire Resistance and it did! When the great mother dragon charged after we destroyed the younger one in two rounds, we survived the fire breath and made quick work of the mother. Nobody even took any damage! It was extremely well planned. This was a risky excursion to take out these two dragons and it worked!
I'd love to play in an online campaign with these two. They are both so funny and seem like they would be amazing to hang out with. I wish I had a group for ADND.
13:25 Eating and drinking is so important. Totally agree. If, even a tiger eats around 50lbs to 70lbs of meat per week (usually gorging most in one meal), the practical effects of a dragons's appetite is going to make them difficult to hide-even if there are long dormant hibernations. It would be crazy-difficult to balance most D&D setting ecosystem's predators with requirements for prey, but without paying it any attention the whole thing feels a bit fake and 'holodeck.'
I like that the first room had a dleeping dragon in it hah, its a good place for a dragon. I always like to treat powerful monsters like this as a leader of his own domain, which the example of goblins working for the dragon perfectly fits in with this idea. I like your guys In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida length intros 😮
Random tables are great for detail, honestly. Rolling, like, a band of goblins on floor 3 of a dungeon can lead to nonsensical situations, but... usually just thinking about it a bit, you can figure out *some* reason they are there and some basic idea of how they survive there. I tend to have dungeons with complex ecosystems though, factions in the dungeons trading with or raiding each other for supplies, people on the upper floors may go hunt for food and trade with the residents of a lower floor for treasures they found deeper in the dungeon, sufficiently large dungeons often have hydroengineering features or cisterns fed from aquifers or water from a nearby river on the surface through a tunnel system [which may be a potential way in or out, if the main entrance becomes unavailable], to provide drinkable water, sometimes even underground farms of edible fungi or subterranean livestock for a food source. Stuff like that, so, it's not too hard to explain how things can survive in them; I tend to build it in to the basic design. hy they are there often leads to some interesting things though since that usually has to tie into what the dungeon is, what it's for, and usually is related to whatever the players are doing there in some ways, which can drag them into the politics of the resident factions in large dungeons. As far as the dragon thing... honestly, something that immediately came to mind for me on hearing that example was "How did a dragon with a completely defensless lair even get that much treasure?" followed shortly by "Why doesn't the dragon have any defenses or contingencies for sleeping?" a thing dragons are both smart enough to recognize as a vulnerability, and do routinely enough that dealing with it would be a high priority if they know their lair is nearby to humans. Like, I can think of dozens of ways to resolve these things in-game, maybe the humans are new to the area and the dragon hasn't realized they're a threat, maybe the dragon got chased out of their last lair and is taking a nap before they can set up their lair's defenses, whatever -- hell, maybe they're jsut a really uncharactaristically stupid dragon, maybe they had an agreement with someone to watch the cave during their nap time and they got betrayed or their guard left their post or something. But... there has to be *some* reason a random group of humans could just run in and rob the dragon that easily, which might lead to some natural consequence coming up later.
I had a dragon slayer game and the players wanted to slay all the different chromatic evil dragons. I had each dragon fight drastically different from being an overconfident bully brawler with its claws & fangs to a snipping spell slinger that wore the party out and almost took them down. I had a red dragon with an iron golem that centered its fire breath and spells on to make that golem last much longer. What really surprised them was when metallic good dragons didn't like them and saw the party as a threat because they were slaying dragons, yes they were evil, but when would they start hunting non evil dragons. They weren't prepared for the good dragons to respond as such, and to have good, not evil, dragons show distrust to the party meaning to do good.
Really good to see other people doing this kind of thing. I had an ogre NPC once who was evil but honorable and swore to spend his final years protecting a shrine dedicated to a good priest (long story). Anyway, another party attacked and killed the ogre on sight, losing out on a huge amount of valuable information about the shrine only the ogre remembered. It was a turning point in my campaign that took a few years of playing to get sorted out.
@theoldwarlock funny you mention ogres. I had an ogre that would ambush travelers. He wanted all the caravan's grog and meat and coin. The party tried to negotiate but it was not even half what he wanted and a fight ensued. The players didn't want to kill a bandit who just wanted stuff. So after a few rounds of it going really bad for the ogre, I had him throw a big tantrum and pitch a fit. Defeated, the party then got another chance to talk to the ogre. Promised him a better life and showed that he didn't need to be doing what he did. The players took him to their hometown and put him to work. The ogre became a guard and did odd jobs that mostly required strength and especially not skill. He worked for meat, sweets, and ale. I had him defend the town on two occasions with the party. That's one of their favorite NPCs I have made.
Look at Alex dropping those intelligent monster knowledge bars. You've great trained the young padawan well Jedi Master Jim. OK, in all seriousness, great episode guys. I was that DM back in the late 70's. Just the books, no experience at being a DM and few nerds to play with in an SEC college football town. Unfortunately my DM career was cut off early in the 80's due to college, girls, and clubbing. Maybe I could have learned better. And I don't have any issues with Alex's extended intros. I know he is just practicing for his Ren Fest audition as the Village Idiot. Great work if you can get it and hey, at least you wouldn't be jumping in the mud pit. Love you guys. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks for the video, very interesting insight! I wish this had been the design philosophy behind the 2024 D&D Core Books, instead of going for writing a bunch of rules to make the game "more interesting". Cheers!
That was an excellent article summary, Jim and Alex. I definitely agree with you guys about the importance of building substantive, plausible details into the world itself. If you don't have and/or demand that level of detail for the world, then players are just going to keep detailing the interior of their individual characters, without any real connection to what is supposed to the world in which that character lives; and, at some point, that just degrades in wish fulfillment fantasies where the setting only serves as a reflection of the ways in which the player has ornamented their character. Ultimately, I blame DragonLance for starting the trend toward letting players believe they can exist in the world as a small band of "specials," instead of having them need a logistical support staff in the field, and at their base(s), especially as they get into the intermediate levels. However, that all stems from letting the world become nothing more than a stage where characters play out their players' whims. I also agree with the bits about playing monsters with intelligences that fit their stats. Dragons are a good top-level monster to contemplate. I actually try to avoid playing dragons with exceptional or higher intelligence too frequently, because it's just too likely that they would kill the characters, unless there has been a highly developed plan to get the dragon out of its planned defensive works and thinking irrationally. I think most evil dragons with exceptional or greater intelligence would not just have deals in place with local troupe-and-group monsters, but would actually be running them like a near state level criminal syndicate, and co-opting their services for defense, food procurement, spying, etc. Best!
This is a great comment, Matt! Thanks. The world should exist as a place to journey through as opposed to the world should exist as a stage for the players kind of sums it up for us.
This preamble was too short. The music of the intro too long and Jims hat is too small. Totally joking.... However, The content of the article and related discussion is top notch stuff.
Howard C. Mahler (born c.1952) is a role-playing game author and actuary who has contributed to Different Worlds magazine. He is probably best known as for starting the PrinceCon game convention in 1976 on the campus of Princeton University which is one of the oldest fantasy role-playing game conventions in the United States. He obtained a master's degree in mathematics from Princeton University in 1976.
Thanks for this! We may try to see if he's interested for an interview.
Yes
Yes
Don't encourage him!
In our AD&D 1e game, we recently killed not one but two red dragons. We got extremely lucky, the dragons were not outside their lair and one of them was sleeping. A long time ago we found some magic oil that we suspected would grant Fire Resistance and it did!
When the great mother dragon charged after we destroyed the younger one in two rounds, we survived the fire breath and made quick work of the mother. Nobody even took any damage! It was extremely well planned.
This was a risky excursion to take out these two dragons and it worked!
I'd love to play in an online campaign with these two. They are both so funny and seem like they would be amazing to hang out with. I wish I had a group for ADND.
If we ever decide to get an online game going, we'll let everyone know. Thanks for the kind words!
The morale check rules in the DMG helps the DM organically create situations where monsters might run away/surrender.
Good point!
I see new The Old Warlock, I click new The Old Warlock.
Thanks, Anon!
13:25 Eating and drinking is so important. Totally agree.
If, even a tiger eats around 50lbs to 70lbs of meat per week (usually gorging most in one meal), the practical effects of a dragons's appetite is going to make them difficult to hide-even if there are long dormant hibernations.
It would be crazy-difficult to balance most D&D setting ecosystem's predators with requirements for prey, but without paying it any attention the whole thing feels a bit fake and 'holodeck.'
I'm going to start using the descriptor "holodeck" in my discussions. Works too well.
Very interesting letter
Glad you liked it.
I like that the first room had a dleeping dragon in it hah, its a good place for a dragon. I always like to treat powerful monsters like this as a leader of his own domain, which the example of goblins working for the dragon perfectly fits in with this idea. I like your guys In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida length intros 😮
Yeah, I'm old enough the get that reference. I think we may start using it to refer indirectly to our openings. Thanks AG!
@@theoldwarlock Always happy to help, I like I spelled that correctly but not sleeping sheesh!
Random tables are great for detail, honestly.
Rolling, like, a band of goblins on floor 3 of a dungeon can lead to nonsensical situations, but... usually just thinking about it a bit, you can figure out *some* reason they are there and some basic idea of how they survive there.
I tend to have dungeons with complex ecosystems though, factions in the dungeons trading with or raiding each other for supplies, people on the upper floors may go hunt for food and trade with the residents of a lower floor for treasures they found deeper in the dungeon, sufficiently large dungeons often have hydroengineering features or cisterns fed from aquifers or water from a nearby river on the surface through a tunnel system [which may be a potential way in or out, if the main entrance becomes unavailable], to provide drinkable water, sometimes even underground farms of edible fungi or subterranean livestock for a food source. Stuff like that, so, it's not too hard to explain how things can survive in them; I tend to build it in to the basic design. hy they are there often leads to some interesting things though since that usually has to tie into what the dungeon is, what it's for, and usually is related to whatever the players are doing there in some ways, which can drag them into the politics of the resident factions in large dungeons.
As far as the dragon thing... honestly, something that immediately came to mind for me on hearing that example was "How did a dragon with a completely defensless lair even get that much treasure?" followed shortly by "Why doesn't the dragon have any defenses or contingencies for sleeping?" a thing dragons are both smart enough to recognize as a vulnerability, and do routinely enough that dealing with it would be a high priority if they know their lair is nearby to humans.
Like, I can think of dozens of ways to resolve these things in-game, maybe the humans are new to the area and the dragon hasn't realized they're a threat, maybe the dragon got chased out of their last lair and is taking a nap before they can set up their lair's defenses, whatever -- hell, maybe they're jsut a really uncharactaristically stupid dragon, maybe they had an agreement with someone to watch the cave during their nap time and they got betrayed or their guard left their post or something.
But... there has to be *some* reason a random group of humans could just run in and rob the dragon that easily, which might lead to some natural consequence coming up later.
Great comment, VR! Thanks!
The dragon is getting it's ass kicked.
Suddenly a minor earth elemental pops out of the ground.
Trouble time!
That's also a good way to change things up a bit!
I had a dragon slayer game and the players wanted to slay all the different chromatic evil dragons. I had each dragon fight drastically different from being an overconfident bully brawler with its claws & fangs to a snipping spell slinger that wore the party out and almost took them down. I had a red dragon with an iron golem that centered its fire breath and spells on to make that golem last much longer. What really surprised them was when metallic good dragons didn't like them and saw the party as a threat because they were slaying dragons, yes they were evil, but when would they start hunting non evil dragons. They weren't prepared for the good dragons to respond as such, and to have good, not evil, dragons show distrust to the party meaning to do good.
Really good to see other people doing this kind of thing. I had an ogre NPC once who was evil but honorable and swore to spend his final years protecting a shrine dedicated to a good priest (long story). Anyway, another party attacked and killed the ogre on sight, losing out on a huge amount of valuable information about the shrine only the ogre remembered. It was a turning point in my campaign that took a few years of playing to get sorted out.
@theoldwarlock funny you mention ogres. I had an ogre that would ambush travelers. He wanted all the caravan's grog and meat and coin. The party tried to negotiate but it was not even half what he wanted and a fight ensued. The players didn't want to kill a bandit who just wanted stuff. So after a few rounds of it going really bad for the ogre, I had him throw a big tantrum and pitch a fit. Defeated, the party then got another chance to talk to the ogre. Promised him a better life and showed that he didn't need to be doing what he did. The players took him to their hometown and put him to work. The ogre became a guard and did odd jobs that mostly required strength and especially not skill. He worked for meat, sweets, and ale. I had him defend the town on two occasions with the party. That's one of their favorite NPCs I have made.
@@sketchasaurrex4087 Nice!
Love the vids!
Glad you like them!
Look at Alex dropping those intelligent monster knowledge bars. You've great trained the young padawan well Jedi Master Jim. OK, in all seriousness, great episode guys. I was that DM back in the late 70's. Just the books, no experience at being a DM and few nerds to play with in an SEC college football town. Unfortunately my DM career was cut off early in the 80's due to college, girls, and clubbing. Maybe I could have learned better. And I don't have any issues with Alex's extended intros. I know he is just practicing for his Ren Fest audition as the Village Idiot. Great work if you can get it and hey, at least you wouldn't be jumping in the mud pit. Love you guys. Keep up the great videos.
Thanks, FF. Always good to hear from you!
The Monsters Know What They're Doing by Keith Ammann is great for this.
Haven't read it but we've heard it's great!
I demand longer introductions and more directionless banter before the title card!
Hah! Thanks NL! We'll see to your requests!
1:30 I like the preamble. If you don’t like it can always skip it. 🤦♂️
Thanks, Solomani.
Thanks for the video, very interesting insight!
I wish this had been the design philosophy behind the 2024 D&D Core Books, instead of going for writing a bunch of rules to make the game "more interesting".
Cheers!
Glad you liked it!
That was an excellent article summary, Jim and Alex. I definitely agree with you guys about the importance of building substantive, plausible details into the world itself. If you don't have and/or demand that level of detail for the world, then players are just going to keep detailing the interior of their individual characters, without any real connection to what is supposed to the world in which that character lives; and, at some point, that just degrades in wish fulfillment fantasies where the setting only serves as a reflection of the ways in which the player has ornamented their character. Ultimately, I blame DragonLance for starting the trend toward letting players believe they can exist in the world as a small band of "specials," instead of having them need a logistical support staff in the field, and at their base(s), especially as they get into the intermediate levels. However, that all stems from letting the world become nothing more than a stage where characters play out their players' whims.
I also agree with the bits about playing monsters with intelligences that fit their stats. Dragons are a good top-level monster to contemplate. I actually try to avoid playing dragons with exceptional or higher intelligence too frequently, because it's just too likely that they would kill the characters, unless there has been a highly developed plan to get the dragon out of its planned defensive works and thinking irrationally. I think most evil dragons with exceptional or greater intelligence would not just have deals in place with local troupe-and-group monsters, but would actually be running them like a near state level criminal syndicate, and co-opting their services for defense, food procurement, spying, etc. Best!
This is a great comment, Matt! Thanks. The world should exist as a place to journey through as opposed to the world should exist as a stage for the players kind of sums it up for us.
@@theoldwarlock Very well put!
This preamble was too short. The music of the intro too long and Jims hat is too small.
Totally joking....
However, The content of the article and related discussion is top notch stuff.
Thanks, J.! Made us laugh!
You're being criticized for starting your content too slowly? Seriously? I guess some people just need to complain about stuff.
That's all the internet is
@@BlackEcology lol
Thanks, Scott!
@@theoldwarlock 🙂