Hey Grey! The "all terminal testing" playlist probably has some of the more useful info some people might find useful. The channel is just stuff that I either wondered about and got sick of asking others to test, or perhaps tracking progress and I seem to constantly refer back to thanks to I guess a poor memory. Or maybe some of the load info depending on what people also might do. Will be revisiting the 5.7 x 28 TSX 45 grain load work next and I have a list of other pork tests I want to see. What I really want to get back to is the .338 lapua load work, so hopefully I get motivated. I also have some new 10mm Maker & Cutting Edge bullets that I am curious about, so who knows?
I've only seen this round in gel and never pork before so thank you for testing it. 17 inches is more than I thought it would do. Damn. Cool shirt btw!
I had seen it do exactly 17" in 10% gel, so I had a feeling it would be at least 14". I think every pork test I've done matches the FBI gel, nearly identically - with only slight differences. The advantage with the meat, is being able to see what is actually a "hole" vs. lines in gel. Seems it's an "in-between" the Liberty ammo and normal jhp in terms of some extra damage in the 2-6" range vs jhp, at the expense of not as much fracturing damage as Liberty. Not a bad trade-off.
@ShastaBean 17 inches huh? I thought I saw 14 in a test before. I still prefer the pork tests for sure since it's real tissue and has bone and not a tissue simulant. Still it's something the fbi got right lol. I agree it does seem in-between Liberty and jhps. Definitely better than jhps. Thanks again for the test!
@@funwithballistics1016 Buckeye Ballistics has it into the organic gel and it was 17"...although he commented on his blocks being near the end of their life and thought it went that far because of that, and the calibration BB was just over the max. Tools & Targets had go 17" in clear gel...so in that way, maybe the "real" # is like 16"?...since my gel was also the rubber type and Buckeye's was a bit lenient? In my pork test, Overwatch also penetrated all the way through the 6" clear block after the pork, and that went 16" in Tools' test. And my HST test is nearly identical to Buckeye's 10% result. Point being - I do think this base of the Sinterfire will really penetrate nearly as deep as this - until bone, as you mention. This didn't hit it. I have it always turned so that it will only hit the bone on the backside, but someday would like to flip it the other way to see how it does with a scapula. Currently, though - I'm just interested in the ability to open and the damage out to ~7". Seeing effects in pork have made me a believer in 5.7 & Liberty in calibers other than .380...and even this sort of heavier fracturing compressed copper technology, apparently. I have at least 3 compressed coppers that I now want to see that are options for 5.7. And yeah, the FBI got the simulant right (at least lol), but...that whole 14 - 16 penetration standard though? All wrong. I believe anything beyond 10" is poor use of energy & surface-area. Currently, anyway. Even with this round...I'd rather have the base be ~40 grains penetrating to 11" & more/bigger shards creating a 3" cavity at 4 - 7". If I could easily change professions - it would be creating a channel dedicated to doing away with that 1986 F(udd)BI scapegoat and stop seeing perps on Police Activity videos consistently absorb multiple 9mm JHPs to the thorax as though nothing happened.
@ShastaBean yeah 16 inches sounds correct then. Yeah it'd be great to see how the rounds are effected when they hit the scapula. According to Marshall and Sanow, the best street loads penetrated 8.5-12 inches and according to Courtney and Courtney, when they tested the correlation coefficients of individual wounding parameters of handgun bullets based on the Strasbourg tests, they found the correlation dropped (albeit very slightly) when bullets went passed 12 inches. They also tested peak pressure wave magnitude using 12 inches as the penetrating depth for calculation (considered to be one of the main factors in the goats that fell fastest during Strasbourg). For those reasons I believe energy and surface area correlations will start to drop after 12 inches. Yeah lol like almost everything their belief that energy ,velocity, and tsc mean nothing and that pcc is the only factor? Wrong. Their silly Wound Value method? Wrong. In fact, of all the ballistics testing pieces done at the time of M & S first book "Handgun Stopping Power" showed that fbi methodology had the absolute worst correlation factor to the street with a dismal .53 with a 90% degree of certainty! Lol I'd subscribe to that channel!
@ShastaBean The 12 to 18 inch standard, as well as the entire ballistic testing protocol, was created as a result of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout. A 9mm 115 grain Silvertip failed to penetrate deeply enough to incapacitate Michael Platt. The bullet stopped less than an inch away from penetrating his heart. Platt was then able to kill 2 FBI agents and severally wound several others. All of the injuries the FBI sustained could have been prevented had that bullet penetrated just a little deeper.
And sound!!?!? Woah. 🤯. Looks to be a bit bad round but Liberty is way better, well maybe not way better. Very good round. Correction. Wow. Great round. Does more explosion deeper. Impressive.
If the 10-12 shards were shaped like BBs...they would likely only create separate small channels like many gel-tubers proclaim. But they aren't. They are jagged and sharp....so, slicing & tearing...and doing it at a time when the pressure-wave already has the channel stretched and spread to a 4 or 5" diameter. In gel, this doesn't make a large singular hole, but instead we just see thin lines radiating out. But in meat, it appears to create a singular large hole. Even at these lower velocities, there seems to be an added effect with fracturing where it doesn't have to be up around or over 2000 fps to have the temp-stretch cavity resulting in a true wound. That said, I don't see a ton of advantage of this round vs. what the HST did. That would have to take some repetition and more precise measurements. However, the 2 shards that exited can't be dismissed. That's over 10.5" of a 2nd and 3rd wound-track that is only slightly less than the main permanent channel of the base. That literally could mean hitting BOTH lungs AND the heart. LOL. I mean that's a 3-for-1 in some sense + the main large hole out to 7". Definitely not bad, imo. I just had to leave that sound bite in there for my critics. haha. I would actually leave my comments that I make for myself in there...but I typically have some tunes playing, and it ends up getting copyrighted. not a big deal, but a bit annoying. Although, if I start listening to hip-hop...maybe it will make my channel explode?? (I mean - GRENADE!!) haha.
Yeah, not any significant difference between this and what I saw with HST to make any switches at this point - other than having 3 exit wounds vs 1, albeit they are each less diameter, which I suppose then comes down to sheer luck and which provides better odds: 1 exit of .355 + 1 of .100 + another 1 of .100 or one at .550. Would take more repeats and precise measurements along with factoring in pressure-wave effects on incapacitation and cavity size at all depths.
@ShastaBean I generally load 124-grain standard pressure HST in my 43X or Hydra-Shok Deep when I'm carrying .380 You're kind of a 5.7 guy. It a shame mainstream companies don't load that cartridge to its full potential, save maybe the new Hornady load.
@@wastool I'd like to get some of the Critical Duty bullets and load them in 5.7. Not sure if you saw Buffman's video with their brass rupturing, but I won't be buying any of their ammo until I know for sure that's sorted out. As far as I've come to believe, the 5.7 nerf'ing is a direct result of the cartridge's effectiveness. Normal factory ammo should be 300 - 320 ft#, minimum of 280 ft#, and premium defensive ammo should be 320 - 340 ft#. I'd say 340 - 370 ft# is roughly what we see Underwood load in other calibers. 400 ft# is absolute max, but it can be done - just not by me.
As always, great thought put into your various replies.
Feel free to jump in...I'm quite sure you have some value to contribute 🤓
Hey Shasta Bean, I just dropped in to subscribe. 🫡🇺🇲
Hey Grey!
The "all terminal testing" playlist probably has some of the more useful info some people might find useful. The channel is just stuff that I either wondered about and got sick of asking others to test, or perhaps tracking progress and I seem to constantly refer back to thanks to I guess a poor memory. Or maybe some of the load info depending on what people also might do. Will be revisiting the 5.7 x 28 TSX 45 grain load work next and I have a list of other pork tests I want to see. What I really want to get back to is the .338 lapua load work, so hopefully I get motivated. I also have some new 10mm Maker & Cutting Edge bullets that I am curious about, so who knows?
I've only seen this round in gel and never pork before so thank you for testing it. 17 inches is more than I thought it would do. Damn. Cool shirt btw!
I had seen it do exactly 17" in 10% gel, so I had a feeling it would be at least 14". I think every pork test I've done matches the FBI gel, nearly identically - with only slight differences.
The advantage with the meat, is being able to see what is actually a "hole" vs. lines in gel.
Seems it's an "in-between" the Liberty ammo and normal jhp in terms of some extra damage in the 2-6" range vs jhp, at the expense of not as much fracturing damage as Liberty. Not a bad trade-off.
@ShastaBean 17 inches huh? I thought I saw 14 in a test before. I still prefer the pork tests for sure since it's real tissue and has bone and not a tissue simulant. Still it's something the fbi got right lol. I agree it does seem in-between Liberty and jhps. Definitely better than jhps. Thanks again for the test!
@@funwithballistics1016 Buckeye Ballistics has it into the organic gel and it was 17"...although he commented on his blocks being near the end of their life and thought it went that far because of that, and the calibration BB was just over the max. Tools & Targets had go 17" in clear gel...so in that way, maybe the "real" # is like 16"?...since my gel was also the rubber type and Buckeye's was a bit lenient?
In my pork test, Overwatch also penetrated all the way through the 6" clear block after the pork, and that went 16" in Tools' test.
And my HST test is nearly identical to Buckeye's 10% result.
Point being - I do think this base of the Sinterfire will really penetrate nearly as deep as this - until bone, as you mention. This didn't hit it. I have it always turned so that it will only hit the bone on the backside, but someday would like to flip it the other way to see how it does with a scapula. Currently, though - I'm just interested in the ability to open and the damage out to ~7". Seeing effects in pork have made me a believer in 5.7 & Liberty in calibers other than .380...and even this sort of heavier fracturing compressed copper technology, apparently. I have at least 3 compressed coppers that I now want to see that are options for 5.7.
And yeah, the FBI got the simulant right (at least lol), but...that whole 14 - 16 penetration standard though? All wrong. I believe anything beyond 10" is poor use of energy & surface-area. Currently, anyway. Even with this round...I'd rather have the base be ~40 grains penetrating to 11" & more/bigger shards creating a 3" cavity at 4 - 7".
If I could easily change professions - it would be creating a channel dedicated to doing away with that 1986 F(udd)BI scapegoat and stop seeing perps on Police Activity videos consistently absorb multiple 9mm JHPs to the thorax as though nothing happened.
@ShastaBean yeah 16 inches sounds correct then. Yeah it'd be great to see how the rounds are effected when they hit the scapula. According to Marshall and Sanow, the best street loads penetrated 8.5-12 inches and according to Courtney and Courtney, when they tested the correlation coefficients of individual wounding parameters of handgun bullets based on the Strasbourg tests, they found the correlation dropped (albeit very slightly) when bullets went passed 12 inches. They also tested peak pressure wave magnitude using 12 inches as the penetrating depth for calculation (considered to be one of the main factors in the goats that fell fastest during Strasbourg). For those reasons I believe energy and surface area correlations will start to drop after 12 inches. Yeah lol like almost everything their belief that energy ,velocity, and tsc mean nothing and that pcc is the only factor? Wrong. Their silly Wound Value method? Wrong. In fact, of all the ballistics testing pieces done at the time of M & S first book "Handgun Stopping Power" showed that fbi methodology had the absolute worst correlation factor to the street with a dismal .53 with a 90% degree of certainty! Lol I'd subscribe to that channel!
@ShastaBean The 12 to 18 inch standard, as well as the entire ballistic testing protocol, was created as a result of the 1986 Miami FBI shootout. A 9mm 115 grain Silvertip failed to penetrate deeply enough to incapacitate Michael Platt. The bullet stopped less than an inch away from penetrating his heart. Platt was then able to kill 2 FBI agents and severally wound several others. All of the injuries the FBI sustained could have been prevented had that bullet penetrated just a little deeper.
And sound!!?!? Woah. 🤯. Looks to be a bit bad round but Liberty is way better, well maybe not way better. Very good round. Correction. Wow. Great round. Does more explosion deeper. Impressive.
If the 10-12 shards were shaped like BBs...they would likely only create separate small channels like many gel-tubers proclaim. But they aren't. They are jagged and sharp....so, slicing & tearing...and doing it at a time when the pressure-wave already has the channel stretched and spread to a 4 or 5" diameter. In gel, this doesn't make a large singular hole, but instead we just see thin lines radiating out. But in meat, it appears to create a singular large hole. Even at these lower velocities, there seems to be an added effect with fracturing where it doesn't have to be up around or over 2000 fps to have the temp-stretch cavity resulting in a true wound. That said, I don't see a ton of advantage of this round vs. what the HST did. That would have to take some repetition and more precise measurements.
However, the 2 shards that exited can't be dismissed. That's over 10.5" of a 2nd and 3rd wound-track that is only slightly less than the main permanent channel of the base. That literally could mean hitting BOTH lungs AND the heart. LOL. I mean that's a 3-for-1 in some sense + the main large hole out to 7". Definitely not bad, imo.
I just had to leave that sound bite in there for my critics. haha. I would actually leave my comments that I make for myself in there...but I typically have some tunes playing, and it ends up getting copyrighted. not a big deal, but a bit annoying. Although, if I start listening to hip-hop...maybe it will make my channel explode?? (I mean - GRENADE!!) haha.
Looks ok, but I think I'll be sticking with JHPs.
Yeah, not any significant difference between this and what I saw with HST to make any switches at this point - other than having 3 exit wounds vs 1, albeit they are each less diameter, which I suppose then comes down to sheer luck and which provides better odds: 1 exit of .355 + 1 of .100 + another 1 of .100 or one at .550. Would take more repeats and precise measurements along with factoring in pressure-wave effects on incapacitation and cavity size at all depths.
@ShastaBean I generally load 124-grain standard pressure HST in my 43X or Hydra-Shok Deep when I'm carrying .380
You're kind of a 5.7 guy. It a shame mainstream companies don't load that cartridge to its full potential, save maybe the new Hornady load.
@@wastool I'd like to get some of the Critical Duty bullets and load them in 5.7. Not sure if you saw Buffman's video with their brass rupturing, but I won't be buying any of their ammo until I know for sure that's sorted out.
As far as I've come to believe, the 5.7 nerf'ing is a direct result of the cartridge's effectiveness. Normal factory ammo should be 300 - 320 ft#, minimum of 280 ft#, and premium defensive ammo should be 320 - 340 ft#. I'd say 340 - 370 ft# is roughly what we see Underwood load in other calibers. 400 ft# is absolute max, but it can be done - just not by me.