Hey Byf have you thought of doing a TSLAYP of Palworld. The game has undergone updates to make it more user friendly and new content is on the near horizon. Plus the game represents a positive change in the game development scene prioritizing what players want with no aggressive monetization (the developers are even understanding enough to accept that people will take breaks from their game and that is ok). Supporting this game with some TSLAYP coverage would be amazing to see and no doubt hilarious.
Another question remains. Just how dead is Calus? He was a Disciple of the Witness and fully invested in his power. So the possibility remains that he could return. He certainly does not have the power of Nezarec, but he does have power enough to at least challenge him and dtill commands the full might of the Shadow Legion..
Perhaps. But Lore wise the Hive wouldnt have a reason to exist after the Witness is killed. They're their "Boss". And in such a strongly stratified society as the Hive, killing the very being that was the closest to the "Final Shape" and key to What their society was working for... Theyd be purposeless. Its as Calus said, theyd be offing themselves as their logic is proven faulty without a shadow of a doubt
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 Maybe, but keep in mind that the Hive are sort of a cult. If their worldview collapses, that's a power vacuum. Something (or in this case someone) will most likely try to fill it, it happened with Oryx, so I don't doubt it would happen with the Witness as well. Besides, imagine how the Hive's culture could shift. On one side, Savathun's already convinced some of them to abandon the Witness and embrace the Light, so who's to say that Xivu couldn't brandish some new philosophy, power, or logic as a last effort to reclaim her people's position?
Maybe she follows Savathûn’s example and abandons sword logic to acquire new power. That would be “Heresy” for her, and she is horribly conflicted. Delving into Necromancy, wish magic, maybe she tries to follow Oryx’s footsteps and slay a worm god or all of them (if any still exist - I think they’re in the ascendant plain). Even without a throne world, she could become more powerful and she might be able to bend her not having a throne world to her benefit. Now she has no safety net so she HAS to fight harder and smarter if she wants to win. Meaning every victory she earns now is MORE impressive. It would be like Hawthorne or Holliday clearing a Legend Lost Sector, or Petra and her Corsairs doing a flawless Raid/Dungeon.
I think we are all miss presuming the fact that the witness power or statute is something that can be attained by another other than it. We all have to consider the fact these are beings created out of the connection between the witnesses resonant power and the actual darkness the result of which being beings like the dread. The allure of not knowing exactly what the witness was was apart of why things worshipped it the way they did oryx worshipping the witness via its worship of the deep
@@redcrystal7xgiven the episode which is hives themed is called 'heresy' makes me think Nokirs more than anything else. His necromancy could become the new belief system when the sword logic fails them.
@@soulsurvivor8293 “KELGORNIKS, THE KELL-KNIGHT ABOMINATION, thirsts for your light.” **massive health bar appears** Guardians: **sigh** “They won’t ever learn…” **readies Gjallarhorn**
Someone else in here already said it, but Im going to say it, too. I think it's Clovis Bray. He's been so suspiciously quiet since Season of the Seraph, and with how big of a deal they made him during that season...that silence is concerning. He made Rasputin to make him feel like he had the power of a God, like he could challenge the Traveler. He always wanted to be a God and to have that potential power just out there? He would be clawing to get ahold of it.
To add onto this, the lore of the Revision Zero quest revealed that Hakke Heavy Industries and Clovis Bray (the Corp) worked together to create weapons from the Luna Anomaly. In the modern lore, Hakke consistently displays anti-Traveler and darkness aligned interests (lore of Salvager’s Salvo, Judgement of Kelgorath, Hoarfrost-Z). Hakke would probably welcome partnering with Clovis on Europa, given he still has significant resources and power as well as immense scientific knowledge around exos, Stasis, and the Vex.
@r3mxd No, he's not. He's currently restricted to Europa after his bs during Season of the Seraph. So he's just there, sitting and stewing in anger. He is incredibly intelligent and has likely figured some sort of scheme to get out of his limited space
@@MynameisByf I feel like the issue with Rhulk was Bungie casually made him way too powerful at creator god-like levels with his involvement with the Hive's inception(something I'm not personally into) , piling on all this importance yet the throw him into the game just so late into things that it all just feels ungodly forced and cheapened. It simultaneously felt larger than life and almost like we were missing a hell of a lot for somebody so strong, yet virtually an unknown to us. To have his entrance into the story also subvert ages of Hive context and history just felt a bit much. The Disciples system also begins to bring up more questions because the power imbalance between actual Disciples and candidates/newer recruits is way out of whack and it also begins to make one wonder, where was the Witness at earlier points in the story when we had some ungodly big bads who would've infinitely been a better Disciple than Eramis or Calus, why didn't Aksis get a phone call with a weird voice on the other line? On top of that the system begins to crumble when the Witness just ends up doing whatever it wants anyhow. It's very flimsy and arbitrary. Even Nezarec's involvement was a bit railroaded and spoonfed. Don't get me wrong I do think there is some decent stuff with the tragedy of the Krill being deceived and further stuff how a lot of the Hive society is a big charade scam, but man to just throw Rhulk in so late with things feels weird. I also am not crazy how Bungie can't make up their minds and changed the story again in barely a year's time when Ahsa's story begins to contradict Rhulk's story, and it inadvertently ruins a lot of ancient being lore as the Leviathans go from being a separate thing to now being what Worm Gods used to be. It was such a bizarre tweak this late in the game and if more people followed the lore they would be so irritated how needless a lot of tweaking was. I understand this game isn't Shakespeare but good grief were there a lot of cool ideas that went nowhere or played out very poorly. I hate how demystified so much has been.
IDK man... That final lightfall fight was no raid boss but it was at least a neat challenge... (Propped up by tormentors, endless ad spawns and everyone believing that they needed to use strand without any fragments)
@@eeveeofalltrades4780 its almost frustrating how grapple can be used to save yourself from falling but the void slam the tormentors do just shuts that off completely
@MynameisByf speaking of that final calus fight, has anyone managed to figure out what calus's last words, "cemali" mean? My theory is that was the name of caiatl's mother but I have zero evidence, it's just a guess
I can easily see Nezarec being the next big bad. Unlike most of our foes, he has no qualms about using Light or Darkness, and he may be the most difficult to be rid of. Not just us, he’d be willing to make Savathun and her brood suffer as well for his defeat that consequentially led to his dismemberment, years ago. He could even Take the Dread, crating terrors that could terrorize his foes. How do you defeat your enemy without conflict? You demoralize them. Something Nezarec is an expert in.
Given that the Witness elected to give Calus an existing pyramid ship (Nezarec's, which coincidentally didn't have an active disciple due to his death) instead of making a new one, until we foiled it, and they still didn't make a pyramid, but instead chose to make him an entirely new ship, still gives me reason to believe that every. Single. Other pyramid ship was called for. That's a lot of ships to potentially all have a disciple aboard.
Something to point out is that at least 2/3 members of the dread now that are specifically modelled after a disciple (the tormentors for Nezarec and the Harbingers/Omen for Rhulk). With that in mind and disregarding the attendants and weavers since they’re corrupted psions and POTENTIALLY the husks if they are indeed corrupted hive…consider the GRIM. If this theory is true…there might be a disciple out there with a design that inspired the grim. A disciple with dragon/bat like wings and tail. Now THAT would be wild to face.
Could you imagine a Darkness-infused Dragon boss fight as the second-to-last raid encounter before the Witness as the final boss in the final shape raid? And it would actually fly around like Alduin from Skyrim (except with D2 graphics/mechanics) and spew dark fire?? That would go SO hard. I would also kill for the Witness to be riding it like the Nameless King and his stormdrake, King of the Storm in Dark Souls III, but that’s too much to ask and not really the Witness’s vibe so it wouldn’t happen.
There is ONE flaw with the Husk = Hive theory, and that's the eyes. Yes, the Husks have three-fingered hands and three eyes, and the only other race in Destiny THAT WE KNOW OF that has those features is the Hive. However, we should take into account that the ORIENTATION of their eyes is different. The Hive's eyes are oriented in a triangular pattern, and the same goes for their Worms. The Husks and their Geists, however, both have their eyes in a linear over-under orientation. Now, this doesn't necessarily disprove the theory on its own, but there is another potential distinction that could possibly set the Husks and the Hive apart. In their concept art, the Geist is described as a "pilot creature" while the Husk's body is just described as armor. This could potentially mean that the Husk is a single living thing as opposed to the Hive who are composite organisms. Long story short, don't rule out the possibly of a Husk Disciple.
I would personally have the next arc after light and dark be about this. New and old threats trying to sweep up the power vacuum left behind. I'd much rather the next episodes be build up of this idea rather than tying up loose threads like echoes having the actual full force of the vex coming to vist, Fikrul regaining all the scorn and maybe some taken stuff, Xivu commiting some heresy to get back on top etc. Maybe throw in some nine or a whole new faction.
I just feel like it'd be the easiest way to start the next arc a full on power grab frenzy from all sides each fighting each other and us for control. And also I just really don't want the episodes to be the end of the scorn or Xivu or whatever echoes is (probably vex)
Tbh the only likely one was eramis but she now is more on our side if any. Tho they hinted Atraks-1 could be alive or atleast have her mind still stored somewhere. If she were to return she is still fueld with eramises propaganda and could easily be manipulated.
I think it could even be Savathûn. Not due to loyalty, but because she knows how to take advantage of the power vacuum that's been left, and can probably use some kind of spell or trick to enthrall the leaderless forces of The Witness
Personally I believe that nezerec will be the person to fill in the witnesses power vacuum. However we wouldn’t see it in the world for some time, I think the story is going to try to take a look more at the nine after this, which has the possibility of introducing a new character that may be able to control the forces of the witness
@@ΑθανάσιοςΝτάσιος-ν2π it will be something different. The light and dark is done now the witness is dead and we can use both light and dark at the same time
If we spin this theory out for a moment, assuming that the glaives are all (outside of the ones we made) owned by a disciple, does that mean Xivu was intending for Kelgorath to be a disciple? Or was she simply borrowing the tradition and making him HER disciple? Obviously Ecliptic Distaff is of our make, or more likely awoken make, so indirectly Mara claiming the guardians as her 'disciples' in the queensguard. The three edges are of OUR make, enhancing our own power. Unexpected resurgence is I suppose borrowing the trope for Trials, making us Osiris' and Saint's disciples. Vexcaliber is... Asher putting a claim on his assistant? But that leaves Greasy Luck. It's hard to say who this one might be for. Possibly Simmumah? Ecthar? Insane if it was meant for Oryx
Don't forget that Oryx may still be in play. After the Ghost's of the Deep Dungeon, we know that the Hidden have possession of his body, he is likely being kept somewhere in the City, and that it has been reported that his heart still beats.
Not his heart but I’m sure it’s his cells are still alive. Thriving, tho his body is fully dead but no decomposing. Oryx is dead but he’s still somewhat alive but not to a point where he is a threat. During gotd they were trying to force ghosts to revive oryx but all knew of the taken king and what he done and refused to revive a tyrant
I wonder if this unknown potential Disciple from Winterbite could potentially be related to the creatures in the Cyrtarachne's Facade lore. Both give off heavy "spider' vibes between the crawling around the hull of the ship and the "large creatures, MANY legs". Additionally both stories take place in or around Neptune, and the creature from Winterbite may have been sent to Neptune from that blast where the C Facade lore takes place.
I feel like unlike the taken or scorn, the dread and disciples seem completely lost without the witness, as not only does he control them but he gave them purpose. Maybe they'll just follow their last given order, or maybe some disciple will pull a psion flayer-type move and try to finish the job themselves like season of the worthy. only time will tell.
Disciples aren't mindless they are allowed to have free will, and of the dread units we see, its all different races/disciples that have failed or died. Having a dread unit seems to be a punishment or open mockery of whatever they are supposed to be based off of.
Seems like the Taken would be extra lost without the witness. They're only ever kind of officially under the control of other factions at the whim of the witness, right?
I was thinking about Aunor earlier, and how she might feel as a Praxic member right now. She might see the vanguard’s, especially Ikora’s embrace of the use of darkness as a traitorous act. Remember, she and the Praxic order despise darkness, no matter the source, and wanted to *kill* the drifter. If that’s the case, then her and the more puritanical members of the Praxic order could pose a threat, and want a new government to take over the city. One that may involve Lysander if he could convince Aunor with his silver tongue.
Hear me out: Xivu, in an act of desperation, slays Ur, the Ever-Hunger, dealing a massive blow to Savathun’s source of imbaru and teaching her a new power of the Deep. Then, at Yul’s urging, she slays Eir, Keeper of Order, making her the most powerful Hive god and Yul the sole worm god.
@@TerrariaGolem well Ur is the weakest of the remaining worm gods, and Xivu would be seeking to find a new source of power after losing her throne world. Slaying a worm god like Oryx before her would make sense, as she continues to idolize him. Additionally, Ur is Savathun’s patron worm, so Xivu has further reason to take it out. Yul was already planning to eat Xol before we slew him, so there is precedent for Yul (already the largest and most powerful worm by far) wanting to take out his competition. Xivu gains more power from the sword logic and possible power from the deep, and Yul becomes _the_ worm god.
@@Nadiki Only issue with the savathun situation is that I don't know if her patron worm or any worm gods have control or sway over a large segment of her forces or even her since the removal of her own worm, and the introduction of lightbearing Hive. Ironically even after a whole expansion regarding lucent hive, we still have next to no really info on the interaction between lucent hive, their worms, their immortality, and the worm gods or any of their relationships/effects towards one another.
I posted something similar on Reddit back during Season of the Seraph and I was surprised how many people agreed that Clovis was a good fit as a Disciple. Maybe not as obeisant as Rhulk or as reliant on the Witness as Nezarec (reliant in the sense that the Witness’ presence as an omen of total annihilation thus a potent avenue for Nezarec’s feeding on fear), Clovis exhibits the maniacle narcissism both Rhulk and Calus possessed in order to take up Disciple mantles. And while not explicitly a Disciple, Savathûn served a very Disciple-like role and indeed had as much of a genuine connection to the Witness as Rhulk (which is to say very little but more than everyone else). I could see Clovis’ arrogance and unbridled self-preservation instinct being more than enough for him to at the very least try and sneak back onto the stage as as a devotee of The Witness, if only to supplant it (again, no one really rivals Clovis in narcissism and if he knows Savathûn was able to rebel against The Witness he probably assumes he’s just as capable, regardless if that’s true)
Like someone else in the comments said i think its possible the Dread either enter a halt or they continue the Witness's ideals, the Witness gave its servants purpose, but not just that, it represents something, an idea. While its possible Nezarec could return (i hope so), he could go about his own thing or continue the Witness's work as he is/was loyal. The Dread seem similar to the Taken however unlike them i think they could still be unbelievably loyal to the Witness, even in it's death
I hope that there will not be a "next evil" with the cliche "the stakes have never been higher". How about they just tell a good story without it having to revolve around the end of the world. There are so many major lore pieces that could sprout an entire DLC worth of interesting content. Just like Forsaken. We werent saving the entire world from a god. The plot revolved around getting revenge. Our enemy cant keep getting infinitely stronger.
There are two more people to consider. 1. Toland. If the mantle of The Witness is up for grabs, there is a possibility he could take it. 2. The Guardian. Whose to say we turn down this power. As far as we know, the Witness is not answering to anyone.
I'm pretty sure that unknown disciple wasn't killed by the witness. At the end of the lore entry they basically swear their loyalty to it. Killing them would be unnecessary. Now it is possible that it's the same disciple that attacked the Exodus ship and I would love to see an expansion on that story
I wonder if the winter bite disciple could be what the grim is based off of, there’s nothing really lore wise but seeing as how the tormentors look like nezerac, the subjugators rhulk, husk are hive and savathun was a disciple, and the husk/weaver/attendant look to be based off hive and psions. The witness has appeared to taken inspiration and what forced he has to make the dread in his own final shape image but we don’t have anything on the brim but what if the disciple that had the winter bite is what the grim are based off of. We know this creature can move/fly through space while swinging a weapon so a set of wings, arms to use a glaive, and legs to walk on the ship. This is a big stretch but could explain what the witness got the idea for the grim from
If Nezarec returns, hopefully he’ll have more health than a dungeon boss. Imagine getting 1 phased by Rat King in CONTEST MODE. On par with Crota losing to an Ethernet cable.
Witness is going to escape to volantis & build a multiversal threat army of vex. If the light & dark saga is ending, that doesnt mean the witness dies. Perfect opppurtunity to prove savathuns truth in the guardians destiny being outside of sol.
There is at least one glaive that remains unexplained, the one Drifter had during (Gambit prime?) Lore. Sometime during Forsaken, I think one of the Joxer stories
I remember when we first learned about the witness' original idea for the final shape, i thought that it seemed counterintuitive to recruit nezarec as a disciple. The witness sees the final shape as an end to suffering by putting every being in its intended place and form, yet it employs a being who feeds off suffering to achieve this? But what it really shows is how deep the witness' hatred for the traveller is. It sees the traveller as so antithetical to its goals that its willing to set those goals aside to make sure the traveller and those it empowers suffer. Its probably why nezarec specifically was sent to earth to cause the collapse. Rhulk or even the hive would have been too quick, and not painful enough
I fully believe Nezerac will take the mantle. He isn’t gone completely, he can still return because his original body parts still hold some sentience and could regenerate to his original body. I also believe that there are other disciples that are fighting against some civilizations out in the universe. In the same way the hive were just killing civilizations before coming to the sol system. Those possible other disciples could all come together to continue their own version of the final shape.
What if Toland takes over the witness’s forces after seeing the guardian and Eris rejecting higher powers. He’s probably upset about. I just thought about this theory just based on him being irritated that the guardian didn’t take Oryx’s power and I figured he’d probably feel the same about Eris giving up her seat atop the hive hierarchy in Witch.
Byf talking about Mass Effect sent me to a new level of joy. I’ve always felt like there’s overlap in Destiny and Mass Effect and I’m glad to see someone at least talk about them in the same breathe
Xivu likely won't be killed anytime soon. Something will get resolved in "Heresy", but she won't die unless they introduce another power player in the cosmos such as she is right now. Nezarec would be another good contender, but I'm not sure he cares. Xivu does, she still very much believes in the Sword Logic and would want vengeance. Nezzy just doesn't care. I'm not even sure he cares if he has a body or not. He just IS.
My bet is either a disciple we havent seen yet, or Nezerac. If Nezerac is the god of pain, survived being killed and chopped up, can he truly be killed? And if we beat the witness in the new raid, actually hurt him enough to kill him, imagine how much Nezerac could feed of all that. He might grow incredibly strong from the pain of someone like the witness, a being that has never felt pain. Along with all the darkness power he might gain from being next in line for the leader of the dark forces. Or to play into the Rhulk angle. He could make the first guardian disciple. Someone might happen upon a fragment of his remains, I know he got nuked, then they get infected with his essence. The guardian slowly descends into madness before Rhulk completely takes over and becomes a new/reforged disciple. I look forward to whatever happens, we're so close to the end.
Questions for Y'all. Do Rhulk and Nezarec have Throneworlds? I dont see why they wouldnt be able to. Mara has one. Toland, Hiraks, they have one too. Its not a Hive only creation. Infact, the Witness/Winnower is the being who explained the concept of one to Oryx. So, i dont see why Nezarec or Rhulk couldnt have one.
Maybe they never got around to it. And remeber Oryx took that knowledge from Aka, the worm of secrets. So witness told him indirectly No other diciples dared to take something from the witness. Nezarec survives on his own without one. Rhulk may be to based for it Or they really never knew about such things
Not to our knowledge. Tho if they did we couldn’t have killed them. If someone has a throne world we would be unable to kill them outside of it. I’d say no as rhulk doenst seem like One to think he needs one. Nezarec wouldn’t seem to give a shit about one either.
A thing that makes Nezerec even more frightening is that after his resurrections he might have access to both the powers of the light and darkness like us. We have fought forces using either light or dark, but we haven't really faced any that can use both. (from my recollection at least)
Nezarec is an interesting point, but how many recurring/resurrecting villains have we had so far in Destiny? I can think of Taniks, Kelgorath, Savathun, and Eramis. Out of these four, only Taniks has really been given a "last hurrah" in any Raid or Dungeon. Kelgorath is, to my knowledge, out there somewhere, and the most we have seen them is a couple of instances across several seasons. Eramis and Savathun both were beaten at the end of respective campaigns, and notably not outright killed, making their revival all but foretold for many players. I guess we have had some returning characters through spirits and nightmares, such as Riven and Gahlran, but typically Raids seem to be the endpoint of a character's conscious interactions with the world (though Oryx's body played a role for Ghosts of the Deep) You made an interesting case for Nezarec's return, but from the perspective of Destiny as a game and not with lore, I personally would not put any stock in Bungie reviving any character we have so seemingly vanquished as Nezarec. All of the points regardless were very interesting and well founded - and I guess only time will tell who will try to fill the role of the Witness if and when we defeat them.
I personally think itll be clovis He WANTS to be a god and becoing a deciple is a great way to essentially do that The whole reason Rasputin was created was so clovis could take on the traveler Then there is the whole Clovis is a psycopath thing I genuinky think Clovis fits the bill for being the next deciple
Hasn't Toland been waiting to sieze power? I know Byf did a video on him, Toland hates that we killed the Taken King, and his throne remains empty Another comment I saw mentioned Clovis Bray.. I reckon both of these are scary thoughts
This is the most logical conclusion after the season of the witch and all the eris morne hive stuff. The power vacuum needs to be filled by somebody, and this time we learned it needs to be us in order to stop all of this and the game. WE are the final shape.
6:16 I'd also encourage everyone to try Mass Effect 3. However the ending is still something many people aren't happy with. They certainly made it much better with the Extended Cut DLC and expanded it via Story DLC, but there are still issues with the ending that would require a complete rewrite and is not just "patched" away.
The issue with xivu is that the whole process was really vague, we had no idea such thing was even possible, so my guess is that she is still on the list (maybe not because of the episode that hints at her) but not because of what eris did because it was a completely new mechanic and she might be able to undo it with ease.
I personally dont think the Witness will be 'defeated' in the traditional sense, so far alot of the ingame lore is in my opininion (Take this with a grain of salt my people): I see us in the quest, from all the trailers maybe shattering The Witness, picking it apart by pieces, and for the Raid, it would be the most closest to the current goals of The Witness. For the episodes after the Final Shap i see us, The Guardian hunting down the pieces of The Witness and maybe a very V E R Y slim chance maybe allying a piece of the Witness, or one of the Species that will assist us on hunting the rest of the Witness.
I think another really good guess would be Savathun. She's got plans grander than we've ever known, has been involved with the witness for a long time although not allied to it, if anyone would be able to swoop in at just the right time and take that power, itd be her. I seriously doubt she'd follow the philosophies or anything in witness's place, but i'm confident she would be interested in the personal gain. She may have been planning this since the beginning.
I hope the Vex get some time in the spotlight honestly. I understand it is harder to make a faction with no individuality as interesting as threats like Savathun, but with the defeat of the witness and basically all other major factions at the weakest they've been in a long time it may be the perfect time to explore them more. I wouldn't be surprise to see a reunification/assimilation with the sol divisive once the object of their worship gets taken down
Nezarec will probably be the initial commander of the dread considering that he’s the most intact disciple we know of, but I feel like more disciples will pop up over time and fight one another for control of the dread. I can imagine Rhulk absolutely tearing into Nezarec over his lack of discipline.
I imagine Xivu Arath to be the more “hard-headed” of her siblings. So it’s possible she has retreated, but considering her state of mind when we last saw her, I’d expect her to do something crazy and dedicate everything to the Witness so it gives her the power she needs. I’d bet she’d fall for a Faustian bargain under the circumstances.
Well seeing that Nazarec didn't truly die at the end of "Root of Nightmares" he'd be the obvious successor for the Dread faction unless an unknown disciple decides to show up
I wonder if nezaric could use the crown of sorrow to empower since that thing is filled to the brim with psychic terror and pain which could make him like Eris at the end of season of the witch became the strongest of the hive gods by killing savathun in her hive god form. Him absorbing the crown and all the nightmares on the moon could make him extremely dangerous.
Imagine a scenario like this: we defeat the witness and somehow survive it, all the remaining forces of the witness are momentarily dumbfounded then turn to the guardian and kneel, seeing them as the true successor of the final shape, the NEW final shape.
I think Xivu still has something to show us. A dog is its most dangerous when backed into a corner, and Xivu is the most dog-like follower the Witness has. She may not be as sharp as her sister, but she's had millions of years to hone her edge, and the seperation of her from her throne world may light a fire under her that could lead her to discovering new power. We mustn't underestimate her just because she's currently mortal.
“To live in a world free from pain But also from joy To exist in a state not of symphony But silence A world without logic to defy Without rules to bend A world begun with 1,000 voices Ending with one terrible scream A scream that could sate my hunger for eons… …but what then, my Witness?” -Nezarec, probably
The fact Nezarec had no issues using light or dark to achieve his goal, and the resurrected form we fought in the raid was a weakend version of himself, i think Nezarec should be the next worry. I mean even in a weakend state, his heartbeat emitted enough energy to obliterate you. I think he still a bigger threat than we realize
The speculation of races that have been touched by the traveler can't be an exclusive, as the traveler never traveled to Torobatl yet we got Calus. Just a thought. 😊 Great vid, more of these would be loved.
I feel like it's very likely that the Witness's forces will splinter. We've got more than enough potential individual leaders, people beholden to the Witness with their own individual ideals and motives, it feels like a good direction to go narratively too since we've been focused on the influence of this big overarching threat for such a long time. We've seen the singular threats that the Darkness can produce, we've seen the singular vision of the Witness, what happens when the various forces that were previously tied down to this god-like being fracture? What happens when that singular uniting vision is replaced with the chaos of many? I could see Eramis taking the remaining dark-aligned Fallen, Nezarek could take the Shadow Legion since that's what he had access to in Root of Nightmares, maybe a desperate Rhulk reviving in an almost zombie-like state and claiming most of the remaining Scorn, Xivu Arath could take the Hive, and the Dread and Taken could be used by two other disciples, either ones we already know about or new ones.
Not really related to the exact topic but have you ever noticed that all the disciples have titles that are fairly unique except for Calus Rhulk, the First Disciple Nezarec, the Final God of Pain Oryx, the Taken King Savathun, the Witch Queen Xivu Arath, the God of War Then there's Calus who is just called the disciple. The Witness probably never actually intended to consider Calus as an actual disciple of its, but probably let him think so to use him as a tool. Also as a little additional thing even Xivu is just a "well this is all we got left" disciple since the Witness originally wanted Savathun (although Oryx exceeded expectations and also became one of sorts)
We know a couple members of the dread are based on disciples like tormentors and Subjugators, and possibly the husk (assuming Xivu Arath is a disciple). Maybe the grin is based on one of those unknown disciples?
Clovis Bray seems like such a viable option above all else given that he's a guy with a god complex that also has the power , resources and intellect to ascend to such heights with the help of the Witness. For all we know the Witness could have been speaking to him since season of the Seraph and manipulate him like Clarity Control has done so in the past or how the Witness has done so with Calus and Eramis. Clovis wouldn't even be a silly choice either. Clovis may be refered to as a comically evil bastard of a man, yet he was involved with many outstanding feats that both threatened humanity the most and enabled its survival: He build Rasputin, he was involved with the creation of SIVA, he build robotic bodies that with the help of Clarity Control and the Vex allowed him to put a soul into them. The man was even able to scientifically analyze and explain some of the Hive magic beyond the esoteric perspectives Eris would give you. Purely speculative but Clovis is currently chilling as an oversized head on Europa in a massive fascility that could enable him to build a robot army, a giant mech body , surrounded by few surviving members of House Salvation that may or may not be loyal to the Witness and by proxy loyal to him if he were to take a deal with it and is completely ignored by everyone. Lets not forget that the Eliksni are engineering geniuses themselves too and could find some common ground with him. With Atrax-1 , they figured out how to put an Eliksni soul into an Exo body and thanks to new Pantheon lore, it suggests she may still live too... If the Witness can see use in Eramis with her sense for vengeance and unique leadership skills or turn Calus with his massive resources and cloning fascilities into a Disciple, I see no reason why it wouldn't reach out to Clovis Bray. It would seem consistent in its recruiting methods like with Rhulk.
I feel like round 2 (maybe technically a round 3 tiebreaker) with Nezarec is not only inevitable, but necessary The big thing for me is that a lot of shadow cabal clones that are functionally as close to mindless as can be (probably operate on a level similar to the scorn) are still running around serving the witness. Without a witness to lead them they might default to serving one of the runaway psions we still haven't found yet. Since the psions have a history of worshipping Nezarec (and often wear his iconography still) I wouldn't be surprised if we see a campaign villain psion working to reassemble and return Nezarec to full strength
Your thoughts on the Disciple skeptical of the final shape had me thinking the opposite, where because the Disciple is capable of thinking for itself within the confines of pursuing a final shape, the Witness may have appointed that Disciple to take over in it's stead should the Witness not succeed. Ultimately I think the Witness understands the power of allowing each Disciple to have it's own interpretation because it drives their comittment, and this individual seemed to understand this principle quite well
Check out Starforge and grab yourself a new gaming setup today: starforgepc.com/MynameisByf
Hey Byf have you thought of doing a TSLAYP of Palworld. The game has undergone updates to make it more user friendly and new content is on the near horizon. Plus the game represents a positive change in the game development scene prioritizing what players want with no aggressive monetization (the developers are even understanding enough to accept that people will take breaks from their game and that is ok). Supporting this game with some TSLAYP coverage would be amazing to see and no doubt hilarious.
Another question remains. Just how dead is Calus? He was a Disciple of the Witness and fully invested in his power. So the possibility remains that he could return. He certainly does not have the power of Nezarec, but he does have power enough to at least challenge him and dtill commands the full might of the Shadow Legion..
Do you think it would be possible that when we defeat the witness, instead of it dying, it splits back into the precursors?
Randal the Vandal, it's your time to shine.
This is the only right answer
Can we all take a moment to raise a glass and cheers that Randal the Vandal is FINALLY Officially cannon???
Randal got nothing on the great glorbo
@@DredgenStormHe was canon in Rise of Iron, he was a super rare enemy that could spawn in the server room in Wrath of the Machine
Our Guardian’s John Wick story after he tried trapping Archie
It would be a shame if Nezarec would regenerate while my guradian is wearing him.
🤨📸
Ayo
That'd just keep him in stabbing range
Fatalis
Now you become nezarec
I feel like Xivu is going to do something unthinkable in order to regain her power and in the process become worthy of commanding the dread.
Perhaps. But Lore wise the Hive wouldnt have a reason to exist after the Witness is killed. They're their "Boss". And in such a strongly stratified society as the Hive, killing the very being that was the closest to the "Final Shape" and key to What their society was working for... Theyd be purposeless. Its as Calus said, theyd be offing themselves as their logic is proven faulty without a shadow of a doubt
@@gabrielpineirogarcia2078 Maybe, but keep in mind that the Hive are sort of a cult. If their worldview collapses, that's a power vacuum. Something (or in this case someone) will most likely try to fill it, it happened with Oryx, so I don't doubt it would happen with the Witness as well. Besides, imagine how the Hive's culture could shift. On one side, Savathun's already convinced some of them to abandon the Witness and embrace the Light, so who's to say that Xivu couldn't brandish some new philosophy, power, or logic as a last effort to reclaim her people's position?
Maybe she follows Savathûn’s example and abandons sword logic to acquire new power. That would be “Heresy” for her, and she is horribly conflicted. Delving into Necromancy, wish magic, maybe she tries to follow Oryx’s footsteps and slay a worm god or all of them (if any still exist - I think they’re in the ascendant plain).
Even without a throne world, she could become more powerful and she might be able to bend her not having a throne world to her benefit. Now she has no safety net so she HAS to fight harder and smarter if she wants to win. Meaning every victory she earns now is MORE impressive. It would be like Hawthorne or Holliday clearing a Legend Lost Sector, or Petra and her Corsairs doing a flawless Raid/Dungeon.
I think we are all miss presuming the fact that the witness power or statute is something that can be attained by another other than it. We all have to consider the fact these are beings created out of the connection between the witnesses resonant power and the actual darkness the result of which being beings like the dread. The allure of not knowing exactly what the witness was was apart of why things worshipped it the way they did oryx worshipping the witness via its worship of the deep
@@redcrystal7xgiven the episode which is hives themed is called 'heresy' makes me think Nokirs more than anything else.
His necromancy could become the new belief system when the sword logic fails them.
The obvious one to take over the Witness's power is Taniks, Kell of Worms
I honestly want some unholy unkillable union of Kegorath and Taniks to emerge.
With a SIVA infused Exo-Randall army.
That would be hell of a fight.
@@soulsurvivor8293 “KELGORNIKS, THE KELL-KNIGHT ABOMINATION, thirsts for your light.” **massive health bar appears**
Guardians: **sigh** “They won’t ever learn…”
**readies Gjallarhorn**
wormz
Someone else in here already said it, but Im going to say it, too. I think it's Clovis Bray. He's been so suspiciously quiet since Season of the Seraph, and with how big of a deal they made him during that season...that silence is concerning. He made Rasputin to make him feel like he had the power of a God, like he could challenge the Traveler. He always wanted to be a God and to have that potential power just out there? He would be clawing to get ahold of it.
Yea no keep coping buddy
@@EncoreBesti why do you say keep coping?
To add onto this, the lore of the Revision Zero quest revealed that Hakke Heavy Industries and Clovis Bray (the Corp) worked together to create weapons from the Luna Anomaly. In the modern lore, Hakke consistently displays anti-Traveler and darkness aligned interests (lore of Salvager’s Salvo, Judgement of Kelgorath, Hoarfrost-Z). Hakke would probably welcome partnering with Clovis on Europa, given he still has significant resources and power as well as immense scientific knowledge around exos, Stasis, and the Vex.
@r3mxd No, he's not. He's currently restricted to Europa after his bs during Season of the Seraph. So he's just there, sitting and stewing in anger. He is incredibly intelligent and has likely figured some sort of scheme to get out of his limited space
@@johnsierra9792 he just wanted to say it
Rhulk would've probably been the only worthy successor to the Witness.
What an incredible saga that might've been...
We were totally robbed.
@@MynameisByf He is one my favorite characters in all of Destiny. He will be missed
@@MynameisByf can you really rob yourself?
@@MynameisByf I feel like the issue with Rhulk was Bungie casually made him way too powerful at creator god-like levels with his involvement with the Hive's inception(something I'm not personally into) , piling on all this importance yet the throw him into the game just so late into things that it all just feels ungodly forced and cheapened. It simultaneously felt larger than life and almost like we were missing a hell of a lot for somebody so strong, yet virtually an unknown to us. To have his entrance into the story also subvert ages of Hive context and history just felt a bit much.
The Disciples system also begins to bring up more questions because the power imbalance between actual Disciples and candidates/newer recruits is way out of whack and it also begins to make one wonder, where was the Witness at earlier points in the story when we had some ungodly big bads who would've infinitely been a better Disciple than Eramis or Calus, why didn't Aksis get a phone call with a weird voice on the other line? On top of that the system begins to crumble when the Witness just ends up doing whatever it wants anyhow. It's very flimsy and arbitrary. Even Nezarec's involvement was a bit railroaded and spoonfed.
Don't get me wrong I do think there is some decent stuff with the tragedy of the Krill being deceived and further stuff how a lot of the Hive society is a big charade scam, but man to just throw Rhulk in so late with things feels weird. I also am not crazy how Bungie can't make up their minds and changed the story again in barely a year's time when Ahsa's story begins to contradict Rhulk's story, and it inadvertently ruins a lot of ancient being lore as the Leviathans go from being a separate thing to now being what Worm Gods used to be. It was such a bizarre tweak this late in the game and if more people followed the lore they would be so irritated how needless a lot of tweaking was.
I understand this game isn't Shakespeare but good grief were there a lot of cool ideas that went nowhere or played out very poorly. I hate how demystified so much has been.
Imagine a madman Rhulk determined to destroy us for defeating the Witness.
“they were all exceedingly powerful individuals”
“except calus”
IDK man... That final lightfall fight was no raid boss but it was at least a neat challenge... (Propped up by tormentors, endless ad spawns and everyone believing that they needed to use strand without any fragments)
@@MynameisByf I GOT A REPLY FROM BYF WTF IS LIFE BRAH
@@MynameisByfnot to mention the knockback he deals in an arena with nothing on the edges
@@eeveeofalltrades4780 its almost frustrating how grapple can be used to save yourself from falling but the void slam the tormentors do just shuts that off completely
@MynameisByf speaking of that final calus fight, has anyone managed to figure out what calus's last words, "cemali" mean? My theory is that was the name of caiatl's mother but I have zero evidence, it's just a guess
I can easily see Nezarec being the next big bad. Unlike most of our foes, he has no qualms about using Light or Darkness, and he may be the most difficult to be rid of. Not just us, he’d be willing to make Savathun and her brood suffer as well for his defeat that consequentially led to his dismemberment, years ago. He could even Take the Dread, crating terrors that could terrorize his foes. How do you defeat your enemy without conflict? You demoralize them. Something Nezarec is an expert in.
well if nezarec fills the power vacuum it would be light vs dark saga again so prob not
Given that the Witness elected to give Calus an existing pyramid ship (Nezarec's, which coincidentally didn't have an active disciple due to his death) instead of making a new one, until we foiled it, and they still didn't make a pyramid, but instead chose to make him an entirely new ship, still gives me reason to believe that every. Single. Other pyramid ship was called for. That's a lot of ships to potentially all have a disciple aboard.
Something to point out is that at least 2/3 members of the dread now that are specifically modelled after a disciple (the tormentors for Nezarec and the Harbingers/Omen for Rhulk). With that in mind and disregarding the attendants and weavers since they’re corrupted psions and POTENTIALLY the husks if they are indeed corrupted hive…consider the GRIM.
If this theory is true…there might be a disciple out there with a design that inspired the grim. A disciple with dragon/bat like wings and tail. Now THAT would be wild to face.
Could you imagine a Darkness-infused Dragon boss fight as the second-to-last raid encounter before the Witness as the final boss in the final shape raid?
And it would actually fly around like Alduin from Skyrim (except with D2 graphics/mechanics) and spew dark fire?? That would go SO hard.
I would also kill for the Witness to be riding it like the Nameless King and his stormdrake, King of the Storm in Dark Souls III, but that’s too much to ask and not really the Witness’s vibe so it wouldn’t happen.
There is ONE flaw with the Husk = Hive theory, and that's the eyes. Yes, the Husks have three-fingered hands and three eyes, and the only other race in Destiny THAT WE KNOW OF that has those features is the Hive. However, we should take into account that the ORIENTATION of their eyes is different. The Hive's eyes are oriented in a triangular pattern, and the same goes for their Worms. The Husks and their Geists, however, both have their eyes in a linear over-under orientation. Now, this doesn't necessarily disprove the theory on its own, but there is another potential distinction that could possibly set the Husks and the Hive apart. In their concept art, the Geist is described as a "pilot creature" while the Husk's body is just described as armor. This could potentially mean that the Husk is a single living thing as opposed to the Hive who are composite organisms.
Long story short, don't rule out the possibly of a Husk Disciple.
what if instead of the witness it was the freakness instead and instead of witnessing us it got freaky with us
Ayo
The final freak
What if instead of Garden of Salvation, it was the Garden of Freak and the Sanctified mind was the Sanctified Freak
@@submachinegun5737 The Freaky Shape
What if instead of the precursors they were the freakcursors and instead of mass suiciding into the witness they explored eachothers bodies
I would personally have the next arc after light and dark be about this. New and old threats trying to sweep up the power vacuum left behind. I'd much rather the next episodes be build up of this idea rather than tying up loose threads like echoes having the actual full force of the vex coming to vist, Fikrul regaining all the scorn and maybe some taken stuff, Xivu commiting some heresy to get back on top etc. Maybe throw in some nine or a whole new faction.
I just feel like it'd be the easiest way to start the next arc a full on power grab frenzy from all sides each fighting each other and us for control. And also I just really don't want the episodes to be the end of the scorn or Xivu or whatever echoes is (probably vex)
Maybe paracausal Vex for Echoes? And perhaps Fikrul trying to become akin to a Scorn God?
My first thought when he was talking about possible eliksni disciples was, "Oh no. Not taniks again!"
Tbh the only likely one was eramis but she now is more on our side if any. Tho they hinted Atraks-1 could be alive or atleast have her mind still stored somewhere. If she were to return she is still fueld with eramises propaganda and could easily be manipulated.
I think it could even be Savathûn. Not due to loyalty, but because she knows how to take advantage of the power vacuum that's been left, and can probably use some kind of spell or trick to enthrall the leaderless forces of The Witness
Personally I believe that nezerec will be the person to fill in the witnesses power vacuum. However we wouldn’t see it in the world for some time, I think the story is going to try to take a look more at the nine after this, which has the possibility of introducing a new character that may be able to control the forces of the witness
Yeah Nez will sit in the background and grow his power until you least expect him to return, he knows how to be subtle unlike a lot of our enemies.
A full power nezarec would be nice to fight. We seen him at a fraction of his power in ron.
another light and dark saga!?
@@ΑθανάσιοςΝτάσιος-ν2π it will be something different. The light and dark is done now the witness is dead and we can use both light and dark at the same time
MASS EFFECT MENTIONED. Glad you like me3 byf, I loved the pve multiplayer in that game
If we spin this theory out for a moment, assuming that the glaives are all (outside of the ones we made) owned by a disciple, does that mean Xivu was intending for Kelgorath to be a disciple? Or was she simply borrowing the tradition and making him HER disciple? Obviously Ecliptic Distaff is of our make, or more likely awoken make, so indirectly Mara claiming the guardians as her 'disciples' in the queensguard. The three edges are of OUR make, enhancing our own power. Unexpected resurgence is I suppose borrowing the trope for Trials, making us Osiris' and Saint's disciples. Vexcaliber is... Asher putting a claim on his assistant?
But that leaves Greasy Luck. It's hard to say who this one might be for. Possibly Simmumah? Ecthar? Insane if it was meant for Oryx
The Winterbite Disciple is just Messmer the Impaler who got a little lost in the Lands Between
Don't forget that Oryx may still be in play. After the Ghost's of the Deep Dungeon, we know that the Hidden have possession of his body, he is likely being kept somewhere in the City, and that it has been reported that his heart still beats.
Not his heart but I’m sure it’s his cells are still alive. Thriving, tho his body is fully dead but no decomposing. Oryx is dead but he’s still somewhat alive but not to a point where he is a threat. During gotd they were trying to force ghosts to revive oryx but all knew of the taken king and what he done and refused to revive a tyrant
I wonder if this unknown potential Disciple from Winterbite could potentially be related to the creatures in the Cyrtarachne's Facade lore. Both give off heavy "spider' vibes between the crawling around the hull of the ship and the "large creatures, MANY legs". Additionally both stories take place in or around Neptune, and the creature from Winterbite may have been sent to Neptune from that blast where the C Facade lore takes place.
I feel like unlike the taken or scorn, the dread and disciples seem completely lost without the witness, as not only does he control them but he gave them purpose. Maybe they'll just follow their last given order, or maybe some disciple will pull a psion flayer-type move and try to finish the job themselves like season of the worthy. only time will tell.
Disciples aren't mindless they are allowed to have free will, and of the dread units we see, its all different races/disciples that have failed or died. Having a dread unit seems to be a punishment or open mockery of whatever they are supposed to be based off of.
Seems like the Taken would be extra lost without the witness. They're only ever kind of officially under the control of other factions at the whim of the witness, right?
@@atomic_wait taken without a leader are like wild animals acting on instinct or last known command.
I was thinking about Aunor earlier, and how she might feel as a Praxic member right now. She might see the vanguard’s, especially Ikora’s embrace of the use of darkness as a traitorous act. Remember, she and the Praxic order despise darkness, no matter the source, and wanted to *kill* the drifter. If that’s the case, then her and the more puritanical members of the Praxic order could pose a threat, and want a new government to take over the city. One that may involve Lysander if he could convince Aunor with his silver tongue.
Hear me out: Xivu, in an act of desperation, slays Ur, the Ever-Hunger, dealing a massive blow to Savathun’s source of imbaru and teaching her a new power of the Deep. Then, at Yul’s urging, she slays Eir, Keeper of Order, making her the most powerful Hive god and Yul the sole worm god.
but why?
@@TerrariaGolem well Ur is the weakest of the remaining worm gods, and Xivu would be seeking to find a new source of power after losing her throne world. Slaying a worm god like Oryx before her would make sense, as she continues to idolize him. Additionally, Ur is Savathun’s patron worm, so Xivu has further reason to take it out. Yul was already planning to eat Xol before we slew him, so there is precedent for Yul (already the largest and most powerful worm by far) wanting to take out his competition. Xivu gains more power from the sword logic and possible power from the deep, and Yul becomes _the_ worm god.
@@Nadiki Only issue with the savathun situation is that I don't know if her patron worm or any worm gods have control or sway over a large segment of her forces or even her since the removal of her own worm, and the introduction of lightbearing Hive. Ironically even after a whole expansion regarding lucent hive, we still have next to no really info on the interaction between lucent hive, their worms, their immortality, and the worm gods or any of their relationships/effects towards one another.
I’m assuming Clovis Bruh will take the witnesses power given he’s wanted to become a god for so long.
That's my thought too. Clovis has been too quiet since Season of the Seraph. It's suspicious
@@StupidCatLadydefinitely and watch him return with a telesto glaive 😂
@TwiceBubaigawara-dl5ln I swear, if he comes back, I will lose my shit
@@StupidCatLady fr but it only makes sense given how he left while saying “they know”
I posted something similar on Reddit back during Season of the Seraph and I was surprised how many people agreed that Clovis was a good fit as a Disciple. Maybe not as obeisant as Rhulk or as reliant on the Witness as Nezarec (reliant in the sense that the Witness’ presence as an omen of total annihilation thus a potent avenue for Nezarec’s feeding on fear), Clovis exhibits the maniacle narcissism both Rhulk and Calus possessed in order to take up Disciple mantles. And while not explicitly a Disciple, Savathûn served a very Disciple-like role and indeed had as much of a genuine connection to the Witness as Rhulk (which is to say very little but more than everyone else). I could see Clovis’ arrogance and unbridled self-preservation instinct being more than enough for him to at the very least try and sneak back onto the stage as as a devotee of The Witness, if only to supplant it (again, no one really rivals Clovis in narcissism and if he knows Savathûn was able to rebel against The Witness he probably assumes he’s just as capable, regardless if that’s true)
There are actually 2 species from Fundament that were "marked for ascension" by the Witness: the Krill and the Worms.
7:25 I felt that pain seeing that sliver of health left...
Like someone else in the comments said i think its possible the Dread either enter a halt or they continue the Witness's ideals, the Witness gave its servants purpose, but not just that, it represents something, an idea. While its possible Nezarec could return (i hope so), he could go about his own thing or continue the Witness's work as he is/was loyal.
The Dread seem similar to the Taken however unlike them i think they could still be unbelievably loyal to the Witness, even in it's death
I hope that there will not be a "next evil" with the cliche "the stakes have never been higher".
How about they just tell a good story without it having to revolve around the end of the world. There are so many major lore pieces that could sprout an entire DLC worth of interesting content. Just like Forsaken. We werent saving the entire world from a god. The plot revolved around getting revenge.
Our enemy cant keep getting infinitely stronger.
I thnk archie the robot dog could be a disciple because lately he has gone to some pretty dark areas
There are two more people to consider.
1. Toland. If the mantle of The Witness is up for grabs, there is a possibility he could take it.
2. The Guardian. Whose to say we turn down this power. As far as we know, the Witness is not answering to anyone.
I'm pretty sure that unknown disciple wasn't killed by the witness. At the end of the lore entry they basically swear their loyalty to it. Killing them would be unnecessary. Now it is possible that it's the same disciple that attacked the Exodus ship and I would love to see an expansion on that story
I wonder if the winter bite disciple could be what the grim is based off of, there’s nothing really lore wise but seeing as how the tormentors look like nezerac, the subjugators rhulk, husk are hive and savathun was a disciple, and the husk/weaver/attendant look to be based off hive and psions.
The witness has appeared to taken inspiration and what forced he has to make the dread in his own final shape image but we don’t have anything on the brim but what if the disciple that had the winter bite is what the grim are based off of. We know this creature can move/fly through space while swinging a weapon so a set of wings, arms to use a glaive, and legs to walk on the ship. This is a big stretch but could explain what the witness got the idea for the grim from
If Nezarec returns, hopefully he’ll have more health than a dungeon boss.
Imagine getting 1 phased by Rat King in CONTEST MODE. On par with Crota losing to an Ethernet cable.
"It's simple. We, uh, we kill the disciples" - The Joker, probably
Witness is going to escape to volantis & build a multiversal threat army of vex. If the light & dark saga is ending, that doesnt mean the witness dies. Perfect opppurtunity to prove savathuns truth in the guardians destiny being outside of sol.
There is at least one glaive that remains unexplained, the one Drifter had during (Gambit prime?) Lore. Sometime during Forsaken, I think one of the Joxer stories
I remember when we first learned about the witness' original idea for the final shape, i thought that it seemed counterintuitive to recruit nezarec as a disciple. The witness sees the final shape as an end to suffering by putting every being in its intended place and form, yet it employs a being who feeds off suffering to achieve this? But what it really shows is how deep the witness' hatred for the traveller is. It sees the traveller as so antithetical to its goals that its willing to set those goals aside to make sure the traveller and those it empowers suffer. Its probably why nezarec specifically was sent to earth to cause the collapse. Rhulk or even the hive would have been too quick, and not painful enough
Glad you liked my theory!
I fully believe Nezerac will take the mantle. He isn’t gone completely, he can still return because his original body parts still hold some sentience and could regenerate to his original body. I also believe that there are other disciples that are fighting against some civilizations out in the universe. In the same way the hive were just killing civilizations before coming to the sol system. Those possible other disciples could all come together to continue their own version of the final shape.
It would be interesting if it was our Gaurdian and then Destiny 3 is us hunting down Gaurdians like in the Warlord era.
What if Toland takes over the witness’s forces after seeing the guardian and Eris rejecting higher powers. He’s probably upset about. I just thought about this theory just based on him being irritated that the guardian didn’t take Oryx’s power and I figured he’d probably feel the same about Eris giving up her seat atop the hive hierarchy in Witch.
Byf talking about Mass Effect sent me to a new level of joy. I’ve always felt like there’s overlap in Destiny and Mass Effect and I’m glad to see someone at least talk about them in the same breathe
A spinfoil idea i have is the taken queen of ravens that is mentioned in books of sorrow makes a bid for power after the witness falls
Imagine savathun helping us defeat the witness just so she can take his place right after, would not be the first middle finger she gives us
The latest trailer has me thinking Zavala might turn into a disciple now😂
Exodus Indigo got attacked by a creature with a trident when traveling to Neptune. Are we sure it was not a pissed off Roman god?
Xivu likely won't be killed anytime soon. Something will get resolved in "Heresy", but she won't die unless they introduce another power player in the cosmos such as she is right now. Nezarec would be another good contender, but I'm not sure he cares. Xivu does, she still very much believes in the Sword Logic and would want vengeance. Nezzy just doesn't care. I'm not even sure he cares if he has a body or not. He just IS.
My bet is either a disciple we havent seen yet, or Nezerac. If Nezerac is the god of pain, survived being killed and chopped up, can he truly be killed?
And if we beat the witness in the new raid, actually hurt him enough to kill him, imagine how much Nezerac could feed of all that. He might grow incredibly strong from the pain of someone like the witness, a being that has never felt pain. Along with all the darkness power he might gain from being next in line for the leader of the dark forces.
Or to play into the Rhulk angle. He could make the first guardian disciple. Someone might happen upon a fragment of his remains, I know he got nuked, then they get infected with his essence. The guardian slowly descends into madness before Rhulk completely takes over and becomes a new/reforged disciple.
I look forward to whatever happens, we're so close to the end.
I don't just think you're right about Xivu Arath, I think she's going to turncoat like Savathun did. "What is this feeling? I do not want it."
Questions for Y'all. Do Rhulk and Nezarec have Throneworlds? I dont see why they wouldnt be able to. Mara has one. Toland, Hiraks, they have one too. Its not a Hive only creation. Infact, the Witness/Winnower is the being who explained the concept of one to Oryx. So, i dont see why Nezarec or Rhulk couldnt have one.
Maybe they never got around to it. And remeber Oryx took that knowledge from Aka, the worm of secrets.
So witness told him indirectly
No other diciples dared to take something from the witness.
Nezarec survives on his own without one.
Rhulk may be to based for it
Or they really never knew about such things
Not to our knowledge. Tho if they did we couldn’t have killed them. If someone has a throne world we would be unable to kill them outside of it. I’d say no as rhulk doenst seem like One to think he needs one. Nezarec wouldn’t seem to give a shit about one either.
I love how the Worm gods have just been forgotten about even though only 3 of them are dead
aged nicely as they just appeared in the journey ahead lol
@James-ji8yz yup
Glad they're relevant again because they've just been doing nothing for years
A thing that makes Nezerec even more frightening is that after his resurrections he might have access to both the powers of the light and darkness like us.
We have fought forces using either light or dark, but we haven't really faced any that can use both. (from my recollection at least)
I think it would be more interesting if defeating the witness un-merged the precursors(?) race.
Curve ball but Mara fills the power vacuum, with Eris as a hive god again
Nezarec is an interesting point, but how many recurring/resurrecting villains have we had so far in Destiny? I can think of Taniks, Kelgorath, Savathun, and Eramis. Out of these four, only Taniks has really been given a "last hurrah" in any Raid or Dungeon. Kelgorath is, to my knowledge, out there somewhere, and the most we have seen them is a couple of instances across several seasons. Eramis and Savathun both were beaten at the end of respective campaigns, and notably not outright killed, making their revival all but foretold for many players. I guess we have had some returning characters through spirits and nightmares, such as Riven and Gahlran, but typically Raids seem to be the endpoint of a character's conscious interactions with the world (though Oryx's body played a role for Ghosts of the Deep)
You made an interesting case for Nezarec's return, but from the perspective of Destiny as a game and not with lore, I personally would not put any stock in Bungie reviving any character we have so seemingly vanquished as Nezarec. All of the points regardless were very interesting and well founded - and I guess only time will tell who will try to fill the role of the Witness if and when we defeat them.
I do really feel like the name "Dread" is partially an indicator that we aren't done with Nezarec
honestly I'm not entirely sure the Dread aren't cybernetic, their helmets remind me of pyramid tech. just my two cents, good video
Bungie has described the dread as "ancient worshippers of Nezarec", so it seems incredibly likely to me that he will lead them after final shape
A lot of people are seriously forgetting about Dinklebot.
😭😭😭
Sticky is so underrated, glad he got mentioned.
Who pilots the pyramid ships if there's only a few disciples? The dread?
the rest of the dread were most likely made right after lightfall or during the witness's time in the traveler
what if zavala becomes a disciple, and we fight him in the raid
I have a Saturday tradition of driving around in the country and listening to your uploads and me. And you are on the same wavelength.
The heir to the witness is Randall the Vandall.
I personally think itll be clovis
He WANTS to be a god and becoing a deciple is a great way to essentially do that
The whole reason Rasputin was created was so clovis could take on the traveler
Then there is the whole Clovis is a psycopath thing
I genuinky think Clovis fits the bill for being the next deciple
Hasn't Toland been waiting to sieze power?
I know Byf did a video on him, Toland hates that we killed the Taken King, and his throne remains empty
Another comment I saw mentioned Clovis Bray.. I reckon both of these are scary thoughts
I have a strange feeling that Zavalla will be tempted by the Witness
After Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I think there ain’t any left.
Judas, Thomas, Mary... other Mary!
My theory, we will take its place this time instead of letting the power vacuum sit. We learned our lesson with Oryx.
This is the most logical conclusion after the season of the witch and all the eris morne hive stuff. The power vacuum needs to be filled by somebody, and this time we learned it needs to be us in order to stop all of this and the game. WE are the final shape.
Thanks for mentioning @stickymz! Love your videos dude! 🥰
Toland the shattered is the most likely "inheritor" I think.
That is what I was thinking, especially after finding his ghost shell on the moon.
6:16 I'd also encourage everyone to try Mass Effect 3. However the ending is still something many people aren't happy with. They certainly made it much better with the Extended Cut DLC and expanded it via Story DLC, but there are still issues with the ending that would require a complete rewrite and is not just "patched" away.
Skira, The Watcher
The issue with xivu is that the whole process was really vague, we had no idea such thing was even possible, so my guess is that she is still on the list (maybe not because of the episode that hints at her) but not because of what eris did because it was a completely new mechanic and she might be able to undo it with ease.
I personally dont think the Witness will be 'defeated' in the traditional sense, so far alot of the ingame lore is in my opininion (Take this with a grain of salt my people):
I see us in the quest, from all the trailers maybe shattering The Witness, picking it apart by pieces, and for the Raid, it would be the most closest to the current goals of The Witness.
For the episodes after the Final Shap i see us, The Guardian hunting down the pieces of The Witness and maybe a very V E R Y slim chance maybe allying a piece of the Witness, or one of the Species that will assist us on hunting the rest of the Witness.
Well if it ends up being clovis i hope he's ready to be sitting in my vault forever once he gets turned into a exotic weapon or armor
Nezerac will most likely become the dreads leader
I think another really good guess would be Savathun. She's got plans grander than we've ever known, has been involved with the witness for a long time although not allied to it, if anyone would be able to swoop in at just the right time and take that power, itd be her. I seriously doubt she'd follow the philosophies or anything in witness's place, but i'm confident she would be interested in the personal gain. She may have been planning this since the beginning.
I hope the Vex get some time in the spotlight honestly.
I understand it is harder to make a faction with no individuality as interesting as threats like Savathun, but with the defeat of the witness and basically all other major factions at the weakest they've been in a long time it may be the perfect time to explore them more. I wouldn't be surprise to see a reunification/assimilation with the sol divisive once the object of their worship gets taken down
By the name alone, it seems obvious that the Dread would be Nez's personal army.
Nezarec will probably be the initial commander of the dread considering that he’s the most intact disciple we know of, but I feel like more disciples will pop up over time and fight one another for control of the dread. I can imagine Rhulk absolutely tearing into Nezarec over his lack of discipline.
I imagine Xivu Arath to be the more “hard-headed” of her siblings. So it’s possible she has retreated, but considering her state of mind when we last saw her, I’d expect her to do something crazy and dedicate everything to the Witness so it gives her the power she needs. I’d bet she’d fall for a Faustian bargain under the circumstances.
Well seeing that Nazarec didn't truly die at the end of "Root of Nightmares" he'd be the obvious successor for the Dread faction unless an unknown disciple decides to show up
I wonder if nezaric could use the crown of sorrow to empower since that thing is filled to the brim with psychic terror and pain which could make him like Eris at the end of season of the witch became the strongest of the hive gods by killing savathun in her hive god form. Him absorbing the crown and all the nightmares on the moon could make him extremely dangerous.
It’s gonna be Byf’s GOAT, Kelgorath.
Imagine a scenario like this: we defeat the witness and somehow survive it, all the remaining forces of the witness are momentarily dumbfounded then turn to the guardian and kneel, seeing them as the true successor of the final shape, the NEW final shape.
I think Xivu still has something to show us. A dog is its most dangerous when backed into a corner, and Xivu is the most dog-like follower the Witness has. She may not be as sharp as her sister, but she's had millions of years to hone her edge, and the seperation of her from her throne world may light a fire under her that could lead her to discovering new power. We mustn't underestimate her just because she's currently mortal.
“To live in a world free from pain
But also from joy
To exist in a state not of symphony
But silence
A world without logic to defy
Without rules to bend
A world begun with 1,000 voices
Ending with one terrible scream
A scream that could sate my hunger for eons…
…but what then, my Witness?”
-Nezarec, probably
The fact Nezarec had no issues using light or dark to achieve his goal, and the resurrected form we fought in the raid was a weakend version of himself, i think Nezarec should be the next worry. I mean even in a weakend state, his heartbeat emitted enough energy to obliterate you. I think he still a bigger threat than we realize
The speculation of races that have been touched by the traveler can't be an exclusive, as the traveler never traveled to Torobatl yet we got Calus. Just a thought. 😊 Great vid, more of these would be loved.
I love the glaive theory... never realised that glaive were like rankings
I feel like it's very likely that the Witness's forces will splinter. We've got more than enough potential individual leaders, people beholden to the Witness with their own individual ideals and motives, it feels like a good direction to go narratively too since we've been focused on the influence of this big overarching threat for such a long time. We've seen the singular threats that the Darkness can produce, we've seen the singular vision of the Witness, what happens when the various forces that were previously tied down to this god-like being fracture? What happens when that singular uniting vision is replaced with the chaos of many?
I could see Eramis taking the remaining dark-aligned Fallen, Nezarek could take the Shadow Legion since that's what he had access to in Root of Nightmares, maybe a desperate Rhulk reviving in an almost zombie-like state and claiming most of the remaining Scorn, Xivu Arath could take the Hive, and the Dread and Taken could be used by two other disciples, either ones we already know about or new ones.
Not really related to the exact topic but have you ever noticed that all the disciples have titles that are fairly unique except for Calus
Rhulk, the First Disciple
Nezarec, the Final God of Pain
Oryx, the Taken King
Savathun, the Witch Queen
Xivu Arath, the God of War
Then there's Calus who is just called the disciple. The Witness probably never actually intended to consider Calus as an actual disciple of its, but probably let him think so to use him as a tool. Also as a little additional thing even Xivu is just a "well this is all we got left" disciple since the Witness originally wanted Savathun (although Oryx exceeded expectations and also became one of sorts)
We know a couple members of the dread are based on disciples like tormentors and Subjugators, and possibly the husk (assuming Xivu Arath is a disciple). Maybe the grin is based on one of those unknown disciples?
Clovis Bray seems like such a viable option above all else given that he's a guy with a god complex that also has the power , resources and intellect to ascend to such heights with the help of the Witness. For all we know the Witness could have been speaking to him since season of the Seraph and manipulate him like Clarity Control has done so in the past or how the Witness has done so with Calus and Eramis. Clovis wouldn't even be a silly choice either. Clovis may be refered to as a comically evil bastard of a man, yet he was involved with many outstanding feats that both threatened humanity the most and enabled its survival: He build Rasputin, he was involved with the creation of SIVA, he build robotic bodies that with the help of Clarity Control and the Vex allowed him to put a soul into them. The man was even able to scientifically analyze and explain some of the Hive magic beyond the esoteric perspectives Eris would give you.
Purely speculative but Clovis is currently chilling as an oversized head on Europa in a massive fascility that could enable him to build a robot army, a giant mech body , surrounded by few surviving members of House Salvation that may or may not be loyal to the Witness and by proxy loyal to him if he were to take a deal with it and is completely ignored by everyone. Lets not forget that the Eliksni are engineering geniuses themselves too and could find some common ground with him. With Atrax-1 , they figured out how to put an Eliksni soul into an Exo body and thanks to new Pantheon lore, it suggests she may still live too...
If the Witness can see use in Eramis with her sense for vengeance and unique leadership skills or turn Calus with his massive resources and cloning fascilities into a Disciple, I see no reason why it wouldn't reach out to Clovis Bray. It would seem consistent in its recruiting methods like with Rhulk.
I love the giant creatures that we don’t ever get to actually see in the lore
It would be insane to see Cayde-6 come back as Cayde-7 as a disciple of the witness
I feel like round 2 (maybe technically a round 3 tiebreaker) with Nezarec is not only inevitable, but necessary
The big thing for me is that a lot of shadow cabal clones that are functionally as close to mindless as can be (probably operate on a level similar to the scorn) are still running around serving the witness. Without a witness to lead them they might default to serving one of the runaway psions we still haven't found yet. Since the psions have a history of worshipping Nezarec (and often wear his iconography still) I wouldn't be surprised if we see a campaign villain psion working to reassemble and return Nezarec to full strength
Your thoughts on the Disciple skeptical of the final shape had me thinking the opposite, where because the Disciple is capable of thinking for itself within the confines of pursuing a final shape, the Witness may have appointed that Disciple to take over in it's stead should the Witness not succeed. Ultimately I think the Witness understands the power of allowing each Disciple to have it's own interpretation because it drives their comittment, and this individual seemed to understand this principle quite well