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Mormon Apologetics: The Problems | Ep. 1822 | LDS Discussions Ep. 46
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Mormon apologetics have been around ever since Mormonism has existed. Join with Mike, Nemo and John as they discuss the types of apologetics that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints engage in and why they are all flawed.
LDS Discussions essay: www.ldsdiscussions.com/apolog...
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:06:50 Defining apologetics
00:15:15 Using academic/secular credentials to push theology
00:24:50 The past is a foreign country
00:32:50 Misusing a quote to accomplish the goal of shutting down the conversation
00:42:30 Following the footnotes
00:52:15 Cherry picking and misusing sources
00:54:15 Look at how the church cut the quote within the actual quote
00:57:30 The use of the “Happiness Letter” without any context
01:01:00 How could Joseph Smith have ever known?!?!
01:16:30 Parallelomania and the hunt for bullseyes
01:30:15 Stacking the equation to force the data to give the conclusion
01:34:45 Using strawman arguments to slay your opponents
01:44:50 Lying for the Lord
01:50:00 M. Russell Ballard’s 2016 address to CES Instructors
01:57:15 Speaking/acting as a man - “Give Joseph a break”
02:02:15 Are they speaking as prophets or as men?
02:09:45 Being intellectually consistent when making arguments
02:18:00 John Hamer explains the problem with apologetics quite succinctly
02:22:40 Why apologetics can be so harmful
02:24:30 Bart Ehrman summarized the problem with apologetics quite well
02:28:00 It’s not apologetics that are inherently bad…but how they’re used
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Wow. Great episode! I’ve been investigating the church for the past few weeks after 10 years of being inactive, served a mission between 2003-2005, and was born and raised in the church in a small town in Utah.
I’ve binge-watched this series and after I watched this episode one of my most faithful brothers called and we got on the topic of Mormon history and I expressed my concern about a few of the big deal issues that I had no idea about until recently.
The conversation was very civil and I was blown away that he went through so many of the apologetics that I had just heard. Almost verbatim as they were gone through in this episode.
I’m so glad I found this podcast. I’ve always considered myself a diligent truth seeker and the truth is that the truth is hard, and is often only found in the bottom of a barrel of lies.
Thank you all for the work you do.
It's simple really. A con man started a cult, then a bunch of men made rules so they could abuse young girls and boys. It really is just a big sex cult.
Just when I think LDS discussions is done y’all come back with another banger 💥
As a historian I have to say, to affirm that the past is a foreign country doesn't mean it's free of ethical judgment or it gets a pass on morality. You absolutely should keep in mind that there were different times, but you can still say "that was wrong". The same way we look at dictatorships today and are not willing to support it, the same way I as a foreigner from the U.S can say what is going on about reproductive rights is wrong, the same way I look at my country and say that there are a bunch of wrong things going on. The past is a foreign country is a way for us to recognize that we are in a time and a space and that mold the way we see the past, doesn't mean history should be voided of any sort of judgment in its writing. You should ideally tell people from where you are speaking, but the church "historians" like to pretend that is not a thing.
im not entirely sure what your point is here but it appears that youre trying to defend something? can you clarify
@@oopsiesh Sorry, I don't understand what is the point that you wish for clarification. English is not my first language and I'm not sure how to make my point any other way. All I can say is as a historian you need to be aware of where you speak from and church historians like to pretend that theres neutrality from where they speak.
I seriously can't understand the logic in this comment. I'm sure if it were word more clearly I would probably agree. Maybe that's all to the point about history being so difficulty to understand.
I take from the original comment that the church defends its problematic history by saying you can’t critique a the past with with the framework of the present. But of course you can! If you do proper research in context with evidence and primary sources you can evaluate the past in the terms of its own cultural standards and you can make additional evaluations using our contemporary values and norms for what these things mean to us in our daily lives
Made my $2k donation a couple days ago this year cause of my love for the LDS Discussions Episodes.
Careful. Eventually, we might be hearing reports about Dehlin's 100 billion fund:). Kidding, of course. It's this kind of grass roots that can level the playing field in this religious dictatorship.
Thank you for helping support this podcast!
Mike, YOU make learning about “The Church” and it’s BS doctrine/revelation easy to understand!
Thank you for this series!
Thanks to Nemo & John for their knowledge & insight!!
These 3 men should be the top leaders in this church! A lot less of us would be leaving!
The TK Smoothie Theory is completely consistent with the "Eternal Wiener Doctrine" ---- just more proof that the Church is true.
Don't forget how Mormon apologists constantly lie that the church has always been transparent (even though its own historians have publicly admitted otherwise) and claim that if you didn't know about the crappy details of its history all along, that's your own fault for not spending your free time reading everything it's ever published. According to them, I should have known about Joseph Smith's seer stone because the Ensign devoted an entire sentence to it the year before I was born. That's always pissed me off, and thanks to the LDS Discussions series, I now see how it fits into the church's broader pattern of blame reversal.
These discussions are helping me, a high school senior, write a paper on the censorship of mormonism for a grade in my English class.
Hopefully you got an A because my TBM teacher gave me an F when I tried doing the same thing.
I want to point out the difference between apologetics and propaganda. To defend an argument through reason, principles and context is a worthwhile pursuit. Traditional apologists like Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine add a lot to our moral and doctrinal discourses. The church’s defenders you’re mentioning here engage in word games, obfuscation, logical fallacies, bad scholarship, manipulations, outright lies. This is not apologetics; it is plain ol’ propaganda in support of power and control
I used to be an Apologist. It was really taxing on my self esteem. I kept wondering what was wrong with me.
Understand completely. It doesn't feel authentic. We could question all we wanted but any answer found had to match doctrine and align with obedience to leadership. It was difficult to say, this is mythology and spin to fit a narrative. Religion is a business and this is unhealthy control. Tribalism hits primal nerves. I lost family and friends so that fear proved real.
Constantly gas lighting those questioning probably was exhausting
@@G274Me The primary layer is you yourself being gaslighted so that you become a simple funnel and not living authentically is doubly exhausting.
The "gathering" together of believers makes one unwittingly a junkie because without that fix to prop you/"inspire" you/beat you into submission psychologically, you can't continue sharing as demanded by the faith. Attendance, Apologizing Apostatizing...and Tithing...and Offerings. Studying to show yourself Approved. Not necessarily in that order. Where's the Cognitive Life Raft in all of that? You're fish in a barrel, not sheep.
@@randyjordan5521 When the organ playing wife of the lead deacon "investigated" the female church members under age 21 claims of sexual abuse (mostly minors), she would relay the stories to the male review committee which included her husband.
No serious disciplinary actions ever happened and the victims were encouraged to be "good" Christian girls and throw themselves into more church activities (to prove their value and worth.)
Later we learned she was telling the male review committee and everyone else in the Church that the claims were false for attention or the females were the issue, not the males...boys will be boys...IF they have girls willing. We literally had a college boy raping high school virgins at our church.
As an adult I went back to their home for some closure. Her husband was clearly shocked about the stories I told including one where their oldest son was abused as a child by a man the church protected until the man committed suicide. Why were these children and teens silenced?, I asked. The deacon's wife's response was, The Church has a right to protect itself from scandal. Scandals, she proclaimed, individuals caused, not the Church itself. I asked, then, who protects the children if not the church? Their parents, she shouted, are responsible unto God, not the Church. Her deacon husband pointed out the Church had basically enabled abusers, thereby promoting it, allowing predators free reign.
To this very day, the people in the Church still defend this Godly Woman that was constantly quoting scriptures. Her own son abused...well, she blamed him and then claimed, If God remembers the sin no more, who are you to ever bring it up again? The Church is to remain the Blameless Spotless Bride of Christ and must be protected at all cost. The doctrine and policies will always support this. And as you point out, the rest is just defense lawyering, legalese. *Adding, as they say, the letter of the law kills.*
@@randyjordan5521 I remember someone saying that apologists are defense attorneys for BS and I really think that at worst apologetics is the art of defending the indefensible, if you can defend something like the Book of Mormon you can defend almost anything (and I say this as a nevermo who's been reading the thing out of curiosity and the more I read it the less convinced I am of its truth claims).
Dear John, Mike, & Nemo,
In June of 2015 I was baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As someone who grew up atheist this was a massive change of lifestyle for a 17 year old convert. A year later I embarked on the England, Manchester mission (EMM) and began sharing the gospel with others as I believed it to be true and had compassion to share the happiness it gave me with others. However nearly a year and a half into my mission, I began studying what was known in the mission as 'forbidden literature' (anything that did not include the Old & New Testament, B.o.M, D&C, Pearl of Great Price) such History of the Church Volumes that covered things like Joseph Smith boasting in his works being more than Jesus ever did; the Mountain Meadow Massacre; blacks and the priesthood; Brigham's claims about a curse 'of a skin of darkness' to fall upon the spirits that sat on the fence in the premortal council; and so forth. I felt completely blindsided when I discovered these topics of church history that were somehow completely avoided in all of my time committed to the church. My faith was completely shook. Naturally, I questioned everything I ever believed about the church to be true. Meanwhile, I still had to rise at 6:30am and put on a face that often our companions and mission leaders would encourage- the good old 'fake it til you make it' kind of face. The hypocrisy I felt weighed on me heavily.
In the midst of what I refer to as my ultimate identity crisis, I met with my mission president to share with him my concerns about completing the mission, only to be told that I would have to pay for my own flight home if I wanted to leave early (at this point my life savings were already spent on going to the mission)- otherwise I'd have to complete the mission and they'd happily fly me home. I was completely discouraged and felt helplessly stuck between a rock and a hard place. Imagining another 6 months in the mission field was crippling- at this point I was utterly depressed and remember many nights I couldn't sleep as I contemplated a way home. Long story short, I found a way home through a means of rebellion. By breaking the mission and church 'code' I was disfellowshipped and sent home. For the last 5 years since returning home it has been extremely difficult for me to disassociate from the church morals, values, and beliefs I once lived in accordance to. Making decisions feels paralyzing sometimes, and any decisions that are made outside of the standards of the church have followed up with second thoughts, and a guilty conscience. That is until I discovered the Mormon Stories Podcast.
This podcast has been the single most valuable tool for me to use in repairing my minds conditioned state with the knowledge you share. Your channel is genuinely a form of spiritual and emotional therapy that I have been using daily as I listen to entire episodes of the Mormon Stories Podcast when I wake up (with my cup of coffee I feel no SHAME in drinking...now), and occasionally once more before falling asleep. Because of all three of you who have spent hundreds even thousands of hours collectively researching and delivering content grounded in facts that expose the flaws of the LDS church, I have been able to get my life back. For this, I cannot thank you enough. Thank you for what you do, and while I'm not in a position to donate to the channel I certainly support it and will once I'm able to.
All the best to you.
Kind regards,
Dalton
I’m sorry for your experience. There is healing for you. The biblical Jesus can heal and restore any situation. Investigate John 1:1-3 and the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 and I pray you can REST in Jesus’ wonderful grace. You are enough. You can rest in His finished work. Message me if you need someone to talk to about Christianity.
Being a Mormon apologist has got to suck
Agreed 100%, just like being a Mormon sucks as well.
It sure does, I should know
It's theological masochism.
Just wanted to chime in and thank you for this. You are 100% correct that apologetics will only accelerate a faith crisis. Good work!
Fantastic show. Thank you. Apologists are the reason I left the church, when I was researching the racist teachings within the church. I could not stand their arguments, and I realized the manipulation and lies within the church.
As a Nevermo, I liked to read the book of Mormon with a text marker, marking every error and anachronism. It's kind of a fun game. Latest mark was 3 Nephi 19:4, calling a person Timothy with no Greek cultural influences whatsoever. 😂
I’ve been reading the Book of Mormon (alongside the Qu’ran) as a nevermo as well out of curiosity and I’ve been writing down all the anachronisms, scientific errors, racism and what looks like straight up plagiarism from the Bible (which I’ve also read almost in its entirety) along the margins.
I grew up in Mexico and if the BoM took place in Mesoamerica as I’ve heard some say then theoretically I may have some Lamanite ancestry, if I remember correctly when Jesus allegedly came to the Americans he did the Last Supper thing all over again and I wondered if the “bread” was a tortilla and the “wine” was something like tequila or any of the alcoholic beverages from the region.
I find religious leaders like Joseph Smith to be pretty fascinating just like many are fascinated by serial killer podcasts for some reason even though I don’t buy his truth claims at all (especially after reading the BoM) and I’m well aware of some of the stuff he did, which are similar to what the Prophet Muhammad did in many ways, so I guess that’s one of the things that convinced me to read this book in the first place but I understand why many would find it to be hugely boring to read through.
Mike - I can tell you your information has helped heal the trauma that came from my agonizing 13-year journey of leaving the church. Gratitude to you, John, and Nemo!
Waddell's answer about secret versus confidential being a point of view reminds me a lot of Obi-Wan in Star Wars: "what I told you was true... From a certain point of view"
Ugh, I neeeeed this right now, thank you Nemo!!
I don't want this discussion to end!! This has been so good!!
I’m currently in a relationship with a questioning Mormon and this podcast has literally been a god send for me. Thank you. Genuinely thank you for this content.
Newest podcast. I appreciate Mormon Stories. It helps me to feel like I am not alone. Keep up the good work.
I've never been Mormon but I keep coming back to this podcast because I have found so many similarities and parallels between the experiences of former Mormons and mine as I left a pretty high demand more mainstream church community (my previous therapist called it a cult after I told him everything I went through), in that regard I don't feel so alone either
I know it isn’t a big deal, but clarifying the pronunciation of “presentism” for Mike was something I’ve been waiting for since almost the first episode. lol
Yeah, the problem with the whole “the past is a different country,” thing is that there’s a ton of people one can point to who were speaking out against racism, sexism, etc.. JS was judged by the people of his time, they killed him.
Further in now, The Happiness Letter and the associated incident with Nancy Rigdon were what irreparably broke my shelf. Seeing JS for who he truly was made it impossible to believe he was even a decent person, let alone a prophet of god and it was all over for me from there.
That Packer quote is scary. Look at how it applies now to finances. We have Jared Larson reading a misleading audit statement each spring, despite his professional ethics as a Utah-licensed CPA. We have Roger Clarke heading up the falsified 13F reporting for Ensign Peak despite his correct filings for his own firm.
Plus if happiness is the purpose of our existence, why are they fighting so hard against LGBTQ rights? We are way happier being authentic and living with dignity.
It goes against "Man Made" Sin!!
My Baptist pastor said Holiness is our purpose even more than happiness because happiness comes and goes depending on what is happening. And the Bible says we are to love God even more than pleasure.
Because God made us with absolute eternal purpose
We think we are so intelligent
Because lds faith is focused on the end goal of eternal happiness. Happiness and blessings in mortality are more of a byproduct. It is not a paramount to purity or any other principles/commandments. You make sacrifices and suffer in this life so that you can be rewarded in the next life eternally. Being LGBTQ is just one of those trials In life. At least that has always been my understanding being raised in LDS church.
@123qwezzzzz Mormonism teaches man is God. Now, that's blasphemy !
Excellent podcast from Valiant Truthful Men of Light. I love everything about this podcast. I stand by you all and every courageous individual willing to call a spade ♠️ a spade ♠️, a lie a lie, a deception a deception etc all are works of darkness and evil. Be Blessed ❤
This was one of the best Mormon Stories I've seen. Fantastic job! Such important information, so much in one place!
I just have to say, hats off to John. Both these two Young men are brilliant in their own right and I mean them no disrespect. But i am super impressed that John brings them on his platform and largely sits back and lets them run his show which seems very fatherly, nurturing, and humble. John doesnt seem to feel the need to be the Center of the show.
BYU ancient history professor/scholar/historian/archeologist/author, C. Wilford Griggs used to do Know Your Religion visits to stakes around the country. I completely believed him, and the truthfulness of the church's historical claims, BECAUSE of all his credentials. Only now, listening to this podcast, am I realizing that he probably knew way more about the historical problems than he would relay in his talks to lay members. I thought I was listening to a historian/archeologist, but I was more likely listening to an apologist.
Is it bad that I really like seeing apologetic arguments taken apart haha
No the truth is healing.. trying to base your entire life around a child predator's teachings is what is bad.
No, it shows that you have a love for the truth!❤ Remember
God is the TRUTH!
Great info! I'd love to see a show just with Mike and Nemo
Beatles wrote a chiasmus: All you need is love
Love is all you need
No? This was brilliant, I couldn't stop listening! You guys obviously put a lot of effort into this. And you're super knowledgeable.
This is exactly the stuff that I love! Exposing the covert lies! I hate lies, especially in cults trying to control people. We have to have people expose them!
Omg! 😮❤
JOHN! I would pay TOP DOLLAR (in addition to monthly donations) for a DVD set of the Robert Ritner episodes. Maybe consider having a studio cut that up into chapters on a few disks with high def images. Would be fantastic to give out as Christmas gifts to my family :)
Me too
I wonder what happens when a Christian minister or priest reaches the age of, say, 60, and finds that he's lost his faith - simply doesn't believe in the truth of his religion anymore. What is he to do? Resign? But he's completely untrained to do anything else. His home and food and everything else depend on his continuing his Ecclesiastical jobs.
So isn't it the sanest solution to stay in the only work he knows how to do and go through the motions even though they no longer mean anything?
I am a 63 year old Christian, and my faith only grows stronger every day. Just because Mormonism is bogus doesn't mean Jesus Christ is not true and real.
Yes, PLEASE, americans and british people, spend your turist money, in Portugal 😊🙏
It's interesting how many apologists eventually concluded their arguments lacked merit and "switched sides." How many critics of the church become an apologist? Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of any...
Brilliant! Thank you for another winning episode.
It is an unethical corporation posing as a church that MUST lie with great skill for its own survival.
Thank you for exposing many of their techniques.
Apologetics is the absence of logic and reason. It gives the appearance of logic and reason, but figuring out an argument that is structured to prove that "ABC" means "XYZ" is not particularly difficult if you're motivated and dishonest.
First, I'm a never-Mormon. I am under the impression, however that apologetics is an explanation of why one believes as they do. Sometimes there are actual reasons. Most often it's experience, something that can't be transferred from one to another. Sometimes it's apo-logic, από λόγος or "from the word." When the word makes sense, faith is a natural response. At least it is an explanation.
In the prominent LDS space apologetics often ask one to set aside logic, but I would disagree with your broad statement.
Start with the simple observations of our existence and consciousness. Physics don’t explain an organized beginning from which entropy can occur, and many if not most people would disagree with the idea that our ability to judge right from wrong and make choices are nothing more than chemical reactions. The idea of a divine creator who gave mankind freewill is one of many logical interpretations of these phenomena.
The problem is when apologetics refuse to adapt to evolving facts or changing likelihoods, and instead of allowing people to maintain faith with integrity it become a question of institutional loyalty of the Dumb and Dumber, “one in a million” approach.
I don't believe you understand what Apologetics is or its role in the life of any economic or religious community. The word is simply "apologia" that means "a defense" from the faith of the person who is arguing or countering another's statement. Paul does this with the Aeropigites in the book of Acts. Sophisticated, intellectuals apologists in the first century wore a purple in ancient temples to declare that they had a defense to offer. The quotient that "ABC" means "XYZ" is a non-critical approach about what apologetics is. The LDS Church is not well trained in this area contrary to the traditional church does in its seminaries. Dr. John Warwick Montgomery who was trained in Apologetics and Law and Theology stated that Apologetics is the sister discipline to Philosophy and is the handmaiden to evangelism. We keep trying to use a scientific approach on a philosophy. How ridiculous! Sincerely, Dr. Tom Roberts
@@Barbara-gk7xl you’re entitled to your opinion, but with all due respect you’re not even engaging with my point before leaping to the suggestion that I don’t understand.
Defense on its own is ambiguous-the object of defense matters; it drives assertions accepted and counter arguments conceded.
@@Barbara-gk7xl defense of a position that mythology is reality, but without any substantial evidence. Just because you can attach ancient tradition to it, doesn't make it any more impressive.
The Prophet tells members to practice intellectual poverty to keep the church's temporal riches rolling in.
Excellent helpful and very relatable thank you
Congrats on the plaque!
A much more apt analogy than Joseph being an archer would be Joseph claiming God would tell him, while blindfolded, how many times the archer hit the target. Then every time the archer shot, he would say either "hit" or "miss" and only being right 3 or 4 out of the 20 shots. Then modern apologists saying "hey, how could he have been right so many times, he must be a prophet,", when in fact even a single incorrect call should totally nullify the original claim.
Another Banger!
I Iove y’all! A great trio 🤘
Dang… the selling a lemon car analogy hits hard. That’s exactly what happened. Or even like you believe selling them the car would help them. But you should still tell them the issues! The church brushed so much under the rug and lived in denial for so long
As a child sitting in Church (back when it was an all day thing) I always wondered why everyone always started their Testimonies the same way... I know the Church is True, Joseph Smith was a Prophet, Book of Mormon is True etc. This Series explains it... Echo Chamber Programming🙄
Congrats!!!
CONGRATS 🎉
As a never Mormon I love this series because it gives most of the information, usually distant and confused, in a clear way.
I would love some book recommendations from Nemo and Mike.
I'm going through and watching a lot of the older content on this channel so I'm sure I'll come across it. TY!@@randyjordan5521
Some random provincial hausfrau and sometime lexicography enthusiast over here is impressed and thrilled as no reasonable person really ought to be when Nemo casually, modestly drops the bibliophilic boast of Actually Handling a First Edition OED. Thanks for that. Cheers. 33:05
I am a never-mormon and all of these podcasts are so interesting. A whole world I knew nothing about (from the most north point in NW Washington, on the border), all of the info is fascinating to me as someone who had not grown up with any religion. John is a great interviewer, I get sucked in every time 😂
what is this never-mormon term. why is this a thing just say you're not a Mormon
I envy you. I suppose I am "never more" Mormon?
Ethan Patch, are you a programmer? You're too logical;)
@@pianomanchristopher hah no. I just think the lingo is corny and unnecessary. Ex-mormon label feels silly to me too.
Soooo interesting
GREAT. VIDEO. I love these facts.
I just had a family member convert to LDS
I’m blown away they did it
He did it for a girlfriend
Total foolish decision
I'm willing to bet your family member doesn't know Joseph Smith used a seer stone let alone the other problems.
He might not care, you should ask him about the temple marriage proccess, and what he thinks of it.
if hes your brother you should be concerned
@nylim. That's the plan. That's what the MARRIAGE business is meant to do.
Feeling the Holy Ghost, all the while finding a faithful wife, at the same time.
Lead to Baptisms.
Pervlin is a Bum posing as a Professor
So very sad...😢
Douglas (Stil)(goes) on threatening the ‘special relationship.’ Great epi.
Heard a good quote yesterday from Rabbi Tovia Singer, the God created Mormons so Christians could know how Jews feel.
If we can judge our past behavior based on the standards of the present, how are we supposed to ever change our behavior for the better?
@raw. The STANDARDS of FACT; Truth-whole-truth-nothing-more-nor- less-than-truth;
THEFT; DECEPTION; DEATH; and ROT are neither mutable nor compromisable.
CHIASMUS. If the inversive fails,
the premise falls.
We do get better over time. The point Is that polygamy was an outdated immoral concept in the 19th century as it is now. This is different from judging Jewish communities 1500 BC.
You can be a “presentist” or you can claim eternal truth. But you can’t do both.
And you cannot claim continuous and ongoing revelation when the book of Mormon teaches the opposite, namely that all prophets, from 1 Nephi on, knew the whole text if the English bible and could thus quote verses and individual words and phrases, even phrases developed in later apostate theology such as "the fall of man".
Volcanologist here - Have you seen the Enceladus Project? It wasn't a jellyfish, it was some kind of squid with shark teeth.
Awesome
I love that ❤you guys on 🔥. The apologetics have a poor argument and no proves that the claims are true.
Thanks!
I am a professional, post-Mormon historian of mormonism. The past *is* a foreign country. Many historians in many fields outside Mormon history use this phrase or think in these terms, even though they don't mean what the novelist or character means. Presentism is bad scholarship, no matter who is doing it. OTOH, historians also don't get to weaponize presentism to justify bad behavior, only to analyze it in the terms of its context. It doesn't mean we cant understand things, but that we have to understand them in their context. IMO, historians shouldn't be in the business of justification at all. I'd like to see more nuance and familiarity with the discipline here. On a third hand, everything gets much trickier once you bring God into it. John is not wrong that slavery, etc., shouldn't be okay with any God ever. These sorts of things get really tricky if one believes God intervenes in human history and is happy to tolerate slavery, pedophilia, polygamy, racism, etc., no matter its context. So you all are right that apologists weaponize (ise for Nemo😊) presentism in problematic ways, but it's nonetheless very much a concern among historians, just in different ways.
❤❤❤❤❤Nemo’s accent.
What’s the difference between history and “advanced history”. It’s all just history, if the claim is that it takes someone who is at an “advanced” level in the church or someone who has an “advanced” faith to simply view the whole history, then that should be a major red flag.
Why aren’t we talking about Tim Billlard and the 8 passengers
I do remember the great 1963 movie, “The Ugly American,” with Marlon Brando. It really showed the bad side of Americans in a foreign country.
@hinbee. British author Graham Greene most wonderfully portrays these principles. His books THE POWER AND THE GLORY and THE QUIET AMERICAN are 2 of his many works. Generally short, but jam- packed with substance.
Sorry, this came out in October but Nemo says it's not June yet? Is this a delayed release of something recorded months ago?
You guys would absolutely benefit from editing your captions. It could help grow your audience.
I received a revelation while listening to this episode, with respect to the "give Brother Joseph a break" line of apologetics.
I think that is a symptom of how pernicious and dangerous the surface, lazy learner reading of Alma 39 is to a church that ends up obsessing over a sexual ethic rather than being examples of goodness. In Alma 36, Alma talks about how leading people from the gospel was his great sin and that it was like he had murdered their souls. Then in Alma 39, Alma scolds his other son for doing a bad thing that caused people to not listen to their message, calling this a sin next to murder.
How many of Joseph's actions are like Corianton hiring a sex worker (and, apparently, one who was quite capable, if the text is to be believed, so good on her!) in leading people away from or out of the Restoration? This extends to Brigham Young and even Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks.
Maybe, if they weren't such lazy learners, they would understand Alma 39 is much more about settimg an example, a standard of Christian virtue, rather than being about a sexual ethic.
But you know what they say about lazy learners.
@@randyjordan5521 I appreciate your rhetorical goals, but chill. I know the Book of Mormon is not true and that it's characters are fictional. That doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't refer to them as real within the context of the text itself. This is a common practice when discussing fiction. By jumping on this point that the Book of Mormon isn't true and it's characters not real, you seem to have missed the actual thesis of my comment, which highlights internal inconsistencies or problems in the modern LDS tradition.
That quote about the past is a foreign country, is a quote from professor N.T.Wright. His quote was being misused by the apologist. N.T. Wright says it to mean that you can't simply read The Bible in your own language and cultural context and assume that what it means to you is what it meant to them in their language/ Historical/cultural context.
John just hit a home-run with observation that people simply CANNOT CONCEIVE/BELIEVE that the "apostles" would LIE ("Flat-out" or even a little). That is a major hurdle. Yes, it is.
Yet listen to their "outsider" cautions: They spare no measure in decrying the words/works of others.
THEN, "Give brother jossef a BREAK"!
That's my family. Complete cognitive dissonance. 😵💫
It breaks my heart.💔🥺
MIKE! You don't have to apologize for- or disqualify IN ANY WAY your accurate characterization/definition of momo "apologetics" as A GAME. It is intellectual toddlers butting & scooting on their arses at a combo cricket-and-dodge-ball form played on a sidewalk and given the name "polo."!
IN SECRET. [LOVE YOU!!]
Never-mo here, I knew nothing of the LDS church other than a brief review during a Sunday school lesson which equated Mormonism to a cult… LDS Discussions was illuminating, curious how much Mormonism has in common with the religion I grew up in, no surprise those commonalities were glossed over during that lesson…
I was taught the tapir thing in my Book of Mormon class at BYU. Not an obscure apologetic any longer. (This was ten years ago though)
Pre-Columbian Horses found now, settles that one
@@KaiserSoze-us9jiWere you taught about Joseph Smith's occultist magic ritual practices in order to receive visions?
I would love to brainstorm with you about how Warren Jeffs twisted so many D&C into his personal priestcraft😵💫
One of the big differences that I find is that I can hear John Delhin or Mike say I was wrong let me correct what I said proper facts! Mormon apologist say here are the facts as we say they are, and if we’re wrong, we’re not going to admit it! Humility builds trust
You are just like all of the Mormon Cult Leaders...never admit when you are wrong....truly pathetic.
You should just have one on for a debate then. Its easy to talk and sound rational without opposition. Robert Boylan would love to have a debate on the show!
Yes! I worship Nemo😅
The main problem for the church today is the term Prophet, they should immediately stop using this term to refer to the President of the church, if we go back 50 years or further you will notice that this term was not liberally used as it is today. This term creates so many problems for the church because the title Prophet means a person who is actually a Prophet, with gifts of prophecy, revelations, visions, miracles, divine power, etc. The President of the church has absolutely none of those gifts. There is not a single prophecy or revelation given by President Nelson, not a single Celestial vision or manifestation, he never healed a paralyzed or blind person. How can he expect that the rest of the world will accept him as a Prophet for the entire planet when all he does is give elaborated talks twice a year? They need to seriously reconsider the use of the term Prophet.
It is hard for me to see how anyone who has read the KJV in light of the biblical languages (Koine G, Hebrew, Aramaic) can take the BOM seriously. It seems to be a transparent attempt to replicate the language of the KJV with no understanding of the English (17th century) grammar as an expression of the underlying texts. But, lo, and it came to pass, this point is rarely made.
👍
Presentism falls flat with Mormonism, because they claim Mormonism is the result of the dictates of a perfect unchanging deity. All the change over time within Mormonism undermines their claims about the power, intelligence, and wisdom of their deity.
who are the fairmormons that have renounced Joseph Smith?
First like! ❤🤗👍
Anyone heard of Ten Commandments ?
Another point about compensation is that Mormon Stories could say tomorrow, oops we were wrong, the Mormon Church is actually the one true church, and you could still be posting content on YT. Your opinion isn't dictated by your income or vise-versa. An apologist for the Mormon Church doesn't just go work in the mailroom after publicly identifying inconsistencies. They're excommunicated and will lose their friends, family, and income.
2:34:29 I think the challenge of a worthy adversary is hard. As stated, these people have always used emotion, illogic, and the things prophets won't say, to defend the un-defendable. The ideas of horse tapirs, polygamous child brides, Warren Jeff (Jim Jones, David Karesh, etc) style abuses of power, smashing a printing press, etc, all are harder to believe/explain/defend in the age of the internet. Currently, all they have is attempts to play on people's emotions, distract from dissenting voices (ie don't trust X because: gay/atheist/communist/apostate), and encourage ignorance of non LDS sources. If the church could allow the idea of fallible human leaders, who made mistakes, and can then offer actual apologies... maybe then a worthy adversary could be developed.
16:49 Kerry Muhlstein makes my blood boil because he knows that he is deceiving people with his credentials and making them think that what he is saying is faith promoting when in reality he’s no better than a sleazy used car salesman.
UCLA needs to ask him for his PhD back
Joseph Smith must not have read these verses in the Bible:
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
He was the prophet, not a bishop
Churches are led by people who think they have answers via their interpretation. It works because we are always searching for answers. It rarely has anything to do with the Jesus' word. The organized church leaders veil the Truth in the search of money and power. Most times it has nothing to do with faith in God!
45:36 I read in a book by Martha Beck that ALL of her father’s footnotes are completely fake. “Leaving the Saints” was the first book I read on Mormonism. Beck did not seem like a reliable narrator as she talked about “recovered” memories of abuse and has a LOT of magical thinking. Still, it was a fascinating book.
A big problem is that everything being used to prove The Book Of Mormon and Joseph Smith Jr. false, can be used in the same way to prove that the Bible and its prophets are false. 😞
Because it is... 🤷♂️
Small horse fossils were found in North America that are believed to have been 32-25 million years old.
the easiest way to disprove Mormanism is to point out that the Bible clearly states that a prophet of God can not give a false prophecy and Joseph and following leaders gave/give false prophecies all the time. in order to for them justify Joseph, they have to discredit the bible and once they discredit the bible, the entire foundation of their religion collapses. if the bible is discredited and Mormon's base their religion on a discredited religion, then their religion is based on a discredited religion. You cant claim to be an extension of the bible while simultaneously claiming the bible is not reliable.
It's interesting listening to the effects normalized blasphemy has on a person's ability to admit simple facts.
It's distressing to continually hear how the carryover blasphemy interferes with an ability to establish a functional Christian framework
One also only has to read "Leaving The Saints" by Martha Beck, Hugh Nibley's own daughter [whom he sexually abused] to grasp the reality of Nibley continually 'lying for the Lord". Sickening stuff...
Well worth the $15 notary fee to quit this evil church. I’m just sad my family is still stuck believing it.
When is a historian not a historian? When he’s the Church Historian.
No matter what you believe , just don’t force it now everyone’s throats, we can disagree!
Disagree about what? DNA? Archeology? Their own records?