Mormon Prophet, Russell M. Nelson's Teachings on Doubts | Ep. 1812 | LDS Discussions Ep. 45
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- Опубліковано 1 сер 2024
- Nelson's 2021 talk on doubts and "lazy learners" encourages members to "choose to believe" and not dwell on doubts. He suggests applying this approach to real-world situations, reframing faith to transcend evidence, and using the bandwagon effect to suppress doubts. The conversation explores how Nelson portrays both fulfillment and failure as aspects of faith.
LDS Discussions Essay on doubt: www.ldsdiscussions.com/doubts
LDS Discussions Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:08:30 Russell M. Nelson’s 2021 talk on doubts and lazy learners
00:17:30 Nelson tells members to “choose to believe” and not to rehearse your doubts
00:21:00 Now apply it to a real world, non-religious situation
00:23:00 Apply this reasoning to another religion or group
00:24:45 Now apply it to a real world, non-religious situation
00:27:00 Nelson again reframes faith to make it transcend actual evidence
00:30:00 Nelson utilizes the bandwagon effect to squash doubts
00:37:15 Following the prophet over popular opinion
00:45:29 Nelson paints both a fulfillment and failure as faith
00:48:00 The church historian in 2023 admits compelling reasons to doubt
00:52:00 Kyle McKay cites Nelson’s talk to make you afraid of doubts
00:59:50 The church historian tells college students doubts are from Satan
01:17:00 The church historian then puts the blame on the members
01:27:30 The church historian says answers to doubts are not the solution
01:43:15 Conclusion on how the Mormon church handles doubts
___________________
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My husband (ex Mormon) was in utter shock (open mouth and all) when he first went to a Byzantine Catholic liturgy and the priest said in his sermon said "If you do not question your faith you are not faithful." He was at a loss for words for hours. He never heard a person of faith say something like that.
Episcopalians are encouraged to doubt and learn and study.
Absolutely great point. If it's true it will withstand the criticism.
@Brenttoe34 any Christian faith will collapse under legitamate scrutiny
@@Cocoisagordonsetterall churches are MANmade
@@CocoisagordonsetterYou're lucky Joseph Smith wasn't in your neighbourhood. He liked minors too. In his days girls weren't all that innocent...he personally taught them things.
As a Never Mo, even I am deeply insulted by the Lazy Leaner epithet. I have spent literally hundreds of hours researching Mormon truth claims. My conclusion after all this is that Joseph Smith was a charismatic but reprobate con man. Thus, any Church founded by Smith and perpetuated by the likes of Brigham Young not only cannot be true but is a blight on American history.
Yes that one of my conclusions that made me left from the Mormonism.
Yes, the rotten foundation of Mormonism is coming to light thanks to the Internet and podcasts like Mormon Stories Podcast and r/exmormon. 👏
Brilliant Susan....
Thanks Susan, I’ve heard a lot of “never mo’s” elaborate their thoughts about myself and my ancestors. But as for being a “blight on American History”, congratulations, that’s a new one. I appreciate the originality, as well as your Christ like attitude and thoughtful remarks.
John has been representing us all for a long time. I'll forever be grateful. And to Margie for being there too. It can't have been easy
Removing my records from the church was easy! Took less than a week. So glad I watched all the lds discussion episodes. Thanks again guys
@mikegrog. Is there really an efficient & effective way? Would you please point me in that direc tion? I just want OUT. CLEAN; CLEAR; and QUIET. Neither initiating long, drawn-out nonsense/ further harm to myself nor inducing enmity by "insult" to any other. Just, o.u.t. : OFF THE BODY-COUNT. 💐
I need help with this pls
Here’s what I did!
I looked up a general exit letter on google and changed things to my own words. I just wrote it on a word doc. I added the notarial wording at the bottom, printed it, had it notarized, sent it via Certified USPS Mail (I wanted proof that they accepted it).
About a week later I got the response from the lds records dept.
Thank you so much!
@@sheliabryant3997Depends how deep you are? For general surface member it's easy for them.
For a member on deeper layers or in the underbelly...you might need more than lawyers, maybe official letters to dignify leave (I don't think they do that anymore), legal mediation and advice for harassment, and cease and desists? Otherwise if really sticky/ongoing maybe move?
It's hairy overall, community soreness is not pleasant to go through when some members never grew up with moral compass or decency
Yes, yes, yes! Please produce a video listing all the changes the church has made in response to social pressure.
Ex-Catholic here. I'm blown aware how far the Mormon Church reaches in the daily lives of followers. No wonder it's so difficult to leave that cult.
The part that gets me is you have to pay a membership. Hello red 🚩 big time. All they are is motivational speaker's, big time con-artist. Look at all the real estate they own. These men, they all have the same play book as Congress and Hollywood, European Union, United Nations, Free Masons, Illuminati and the list goes on. Their all connected in some way. Their main goal is leading the masses like sheep and cows to the slaughter house.
While a student at BYU in1980-1982, I chose to believe and it did not work!
I continued to have doubts until I had the strength to leave the church.
It's a long story, but I am happy now! I am now a truly happy person now that I am not brainwashed anymore and can think for myself!
@@Anti-Mormons-are-Idiots I love you and I love all people. Also,
I am happy after leaving the church.
My family converted when I was 11 years old and I had no understanding of what the Mormon religion was until I went to BYU and took all of the religion classes. My doubts were during and after those classes... but it is a long story.
I have friends and family who are active and believing members. I love and respect their them.
Leaving Mormonism was the best decision l ever made. I came back to life. I found the true Biblical Jesus.
I am so much happier. Those men that lead the lds church are business leaders , that is it. Peace . ❤️
I was never a lazy learner nor a lax disciple. I studied my way right out of this false religion. Russell Nelson can really talk out of both sides of his pithy barbed mouth. 🥺
My deepest appreciation to all 3 of you and the Mormon stories team that put this channel and especially this series together. It has been VITAL in navigating my own faith crisis and subsequent deconstruction.
I echo the sentiments of David Archuletta’s mother- the most upsetting thing about everything was knowing that you have intentionally been deceived and continually lied to from the beginning to end of my membership and it’s heart breaking, but life does get better and agency with informed consent is worth the price.
I'm confused are you now a morman?
@@upstairscandy0764 no
As a Christian I am very grateful that doubting and testing the Bible were always encouraged in my family and church. I think it’s a big red flag otherwise.
I was an active LDS church member until I moved to Idaho back in 2011, that's when it all changed for me. I was warned about the "hard core" members in east Idaho being worse than the radical Utah members. But nothing prepared me for what I experienced in the Boise area. I can't believe the behavior of these people. The church says and does nothing about it. There is absolutely no direction or council on how to deal with "shark attacks on land" nor council or criticism to those doing the attacks. The church should be discussing this publicly especially during General Conferences, but they don't. It's just the same message over and over and over again! I recently learned the term "gas lighting" and to me when you look the other way when people are emotionally and spiritually attacked (especially by other church members) then your at fault as well. All I keep hearing is, "I don't see it" or "I know what your talking about" or my favorite, "that's never happened to me" is gas lighting tactic and very damaging. I am sorry for being so angry, but I expected more from "The one true church".
I can't even talk to my adult LDS kids or my husband because I'm being told that I have lost my way and that I have no business looking for answers to the things I am not meant to know about. I have been struggling alone for 12 years. I am grateful for Mormon Stories Podcast (especially Mike from LDS Discussions) but I have to admit I keep hearing my family tell me that I am lost and the more I look for answers the further away from Jesus and Heavenly Father I will become. I am struggling with guilt just because I want to know more. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Read your Bible. That is the truth. Book of Mormon was fantasy stories written by a distant relative, and the family knew it was a bunch of garbage and rejected his newfound fake book. Mormon church pushes their Book claiming it supports the Holy Bible
It does not. The Bible is the way the truth and the light. No one gets to the Father except through Jesus Christ! Best to you.
@@soakbear Best advice!!
I was going to let it pass-but it was twice, so: it’s gas ‘lighting’ not ‘lightening’-if it’s auto correct or a typo-sorry.
Otherwise yes, you are describing it really well. And it’s why all this crime is coming out of that circle. When you gaslight, abuse, hugely misinform people, and profit from it-some of the oppressed folks will go way off the path.
I have a great love for Boise. And wish I could live there again. I WAS treated well. HOWEVER, now that I m not a believer, I or should I say, a very doubting person, well I just wonder how I would be treated. You have a right to ask and research your doubts. Take care, and remain strong.
❤I felt your hearts message. Your right your being gaslit which is invalidating. Gaslighting undermines love and when done enough inflicts up to lifetime emotional @ psychological damage to the victim. High Demand Religious Church’s & Cults use a false God to make money off of the Divine God of Love. I support you in your ligament suffering. ❤
I started having some doubts when they put a statement on the tithe slips. It was something like this " we have the right to use the funds in the way we see fit." Not quite a quote. I noticed that on the slips over 7 years ago. I never told anyone of my doubts.
for me that’s always been on the tithe slips so i thought it was considered normal. at the time i was only aware of the church using their money for charity or temples. i was also taught the only money the church had was from tithing and the church didn’t have much money. come to find out what that statement meant was “you have to be okay with us putting your hard earned money in apple stocks”. then learning they have over 250 billion and only used 1% for charity was the icing on the cake.
Thank You, To each of you Gentlemen for the hard work you do for shinning a light on harmful teachings of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. AKA Mormon Church
THANK YOU for getting the name of the Mormon Church spelled correctly aka the COJCOLDS with a hyphen lowercase d.
I love these episodes. I look forward to every episode. Thanks Mike, Nemo, and John. You guys are changing a lot of lives with this series!
100% agree. I think he will be instrumental in helping a vast amount of people find the truth and subsequently their way out of a cult
@@a.walters123indeed.
THANK YOU SIR & Co.
Go John go! I LOVE your rants 😂
I’m going to miss this series when it’s over. Such great episodes that have helped me so much in my life. Thank you John, Mike and Nemo❤️
Glad you like them!
I hate it when they say, "could you do any better?" The answer is YES. It is literally so easy not to sexually coerce people and con them out of their money. I've never done it. I've never had the inkling of a desire to do it.
I'm about 1:10:12 into this ep. I just want to say thank you for what you guys are doing. Honestly, I'm not very gifted with my words and intellect as you guys are, but what I can say is I'm grateful for this video.
The change was what got me. What if I put my conscience aside and did something that felt wrong only to have the church back track it later?
I initially stopped attending church in my adolescence, partly out of rebelliousness, but more so because I was pushing back against how it made me feel. It simply wasn't good for my mental health.
As a young adult, I went back out of guilt and tried my best to embrace everything to become the perfect little Mormon boy and live the life we're all supposed to live. I was getting ready to go on a mission but backed out because it just didn't quite feel right for me and it was again taking a toll on my mental health.
Instead I moved away to attend postsecondary. During this time, I claimed the space I needed from it all to discover who I was and expand my horizons outside the little Mormon bubble. I met gay people and realized they weren't evil, but instead were super cool! I was surrounded by people of different races and increasingly bothered that the scriptures said they were cursed with dark skin to make them "loathsome" to us "white and delightsome" people. I realized that the church's position on sex was extremely unhealthy. More and more I felt like their positions on social issues were un-Christ-like and were holding society back. They weren't behaving as leaders in social progress but reluctant followers who finally relent to social pressures a generation or two too late.
I got married outside of the church and moved on with life, all the while carrying a nagging guilt for not living up to all the things that were expected of me by the church. Not because I believed it anymore-I had come to realize I was atheist. However I was open to the church (any church) being true, but I needed evidence.
Even so, 15 years after I last attended church meetings, I would still defend Mormonism if I heard it being attacked.
Finally I realized there were clearly still strings holding me to the religion and I needed to investigate for myself whether or not there was truth to it, so that I could get back to living the gospel or finally fully let go of it. But I was going to investigate it myself looking at objective sources, preferably source documents, and reason it out instead of relying on emotions. I expected my investigations to be difficult and possibly inconclusive, but they were anything but that! What I found was shocking. Not only is the history we were taught not true, the actual history of the church and Joseph Smith is reprehensible. Worse, the abhorrent, immoral conduct of church leaders has been a constant throughout its history right up until this very moment.
Learning the truth has done two things for me:
1) It's been freeing for my conscience
2) it's stirred up within me a righteous anger. It makes me mad the way they've manipulated and exploited so many people for so many years.
Enough is enough. It's time for members to see what's happening, stand up to it, and reclaim their lives. We can't force it on them, but we can be there along the way to help them when it inevitably happens.
When the church historian in his speech given at BYU Idaho referenced Satan can turn himself into an angel of light, I believe that’s true. For me every time I drive by one of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day, Saints temples, I remember this. I say to myself, there’s another evidence of the devil can turn himself into an angel of light.
So you believe in a Satan? Have you researched for credible evidence of their existence? Do the same for a literal hellfire and brimstone place. Evidence for both is no stronger than that of Santa Claus. Intellectual honesty is true freedom.
You're right!
the false light
In a land where faith was taught by rote, Where leaders spoke and all took note, There came a man, so meek and mild, Whose teachings seemed a bit beguiled. "Lazy learner," they'd often jest, For He questioned norms, put faith to test. He dined with sinners, healed on the sabbath day, Challenged the leaders in every way. The Pharisees scoffed, the scribes did too, "Who is this man with a view so new?" He spoke of love, of a kingdom within, Of forgiveness of sins, a new way to begin. The Good Samaritan, a tale He told, Of a man who broke the cultural mold. He helped a stranger, showed love so pure, While priests passed by, their hearts obscure. Was the Samaritan a lazy learner too? For he didn't follow what others would do. He listened to his heart, not to man's decree, And in doing so, set his spirit free. Jesus, the ultimate "lazy learner" they'd say, For He taught love in a radical way. But those who listened, who truly heard, Knew His teachings were the truest word. So when they call you a lazy learner, smile, For questioning norms is worth the while. For in seeking truth, in love's embrace, We find the path to God's true grace. (Anon)
Oh! That is fantastic! Thanks for sharing it. I’m going to pass it on to my family.🎉
I found this poem beautiful and full of the truth that it held within its simple words and insightfulness!! The author sounds enlightened and wise! Did I make any sense!??😅😊 I loved it and want to share it with my family and friends..
What a great trailer! Love u guys- keep up the great work!! ❤
If a group is going to demand SO much from their members (10% of their income for life, time-consuming volunteer work for life, every Sunday, etc…), they had better be prepared to give compelling reasons to believe. When I was a young, teen convert I remember any questions I had (not even about faith but just about understanding the gospel) were immediately shot down. I remember sitting in Young Women’s and Seminary and being made to feel bad for asking questions. So I quickly learned to be silent.
Boyd K. Packer, speaking to church educators: "Your objective should be that they will see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now."
Kyle McKay's message paraphrased: "The fact that you actually can't see the hand of the Lord in every hour and every moment of the Church from its beginning till now and there are so many errors, screw-ups, lies and distortions that you could say that there are compelling reasons to doubt that the Lord has any involvement in this Church at all...should not be an obstacle to having faith in the Church and its leaders. Just choose to believe."
Love your reasoning on topic. BKP did much emotional damage with his dogma.
@@Anti-Mormons-are-Idiots please review the critical thinking error evident in your reply.
The church is stuck in the1840's. Salvation is not obtained through any organization, it is between each of us and our creator.
creator
Amen!! 🙏
Imagine a prosecuting or defense lawyer echoing the words of RMN in their closing arguments: Choose to believe what I'm telling you. Don't seek to find any discrepencies in the evidence I've presented you with the rest of the evidence (or even contradictory evidence in what only I have presented you). Don't talk to any other jurors that don't agree with everything I'm telling you. If you choose to look for discrepencies or talk to jurors that don't agree with me then you are lazy!
So true. Im Chatolic and I find your stories very intresting. Reason was Lori Valow case. Im almost sure that Mormon religon is a cult.
It is, according to the BITE model
The Mormon Church is most definitely the one true cult. I can testify, I know this to be true. The Holy Ghost or whatever confirmed this upon my baptism after I had to get dunked a 2nd time due to my toe popping up out of the water. I was like oh crap I'm pretty sure this is the cult of cults followers of Joseph's myth.
57:00 please Jonh! Please! Make a short with this talk! This is so precious!
I'm struck by how much that Mormon guy Nelson looks like Voldemort.
Right? It’s not even the baldness and big pointy ears-it’s the eyes.* shudders
I think Mr. Burns is an even better doppelganger 😂
@@aspackblaze3583thats what i think too
You are spot on!@@aspackblaze3583
Thanks for being judgemental like those you oppose.
You would be surprised how many church members do not remember this talk. They have not even studied the printed version in Ensign/Liahona (May 2021). It was offensive to many people when the talk was given at General Conference. It was criticized for blaming the victim. In the old days people would blame a member and state "they must not have had a strong testimony." The talk was viewed as the victim of doubt had no one to blame but themselves. When this talk was given in priesthood class, the elder's quorum teacher cut out the "lazy learner" section of the talk knowing full well the comment was deemed offensive.
John Dehlin , your genuine visible demonstrated Compassion, listening and sensitivity is Reaching and Healing More human beings than the LDS Church Ever Could ! ,
Did this video become unlisted because of copyright claims? Hopefully it can go up on the channel as usual like the others. Thanks for the episode as always!
I friggin love this whole series. Thank you all (onscreen & offscreen) who are working on it. 👏👏👏
Still an active member here, and I was equally thrown off by the "Faith in Him Will Move Mountains" talk when I first heard it. I've always turned to Uchtdorf's "Come, Join with Us" talk from 2013 where he's much more understanding about the various struggles that people go through. He even says:
"Sometimes we assume it is because [those who leave] have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations."
Seems like Nelson needs to take a lesson from Uchtdorf XD
Thank you for this episode guys!
Mike I would rather listen to you discuss rather than read it myself. I get so much more out of it. Mormon discussions are my favorite Mormon stories episodes. As a convert,or rather x convert, I love hearing all of my doubts that I have had and should have never joined in the first place.
faith is about letting go, not holding on tight
It is alright to ask questions. 😐🫤 The shame factor is gross.
I'm loving this fiery energy from John! Thanks for exposing this cult for what it is.
All my life, that's exactly what the church has told us to do... just follow and keep believing! Noooo! I have and have had questions
Fortunately we now have access to computers and books previously stored in the back of the publishers.
In conjunction with Russell saying “choose to believe” he also said don’t “rehearsing ” your doubts. Is he talking about these podcasts? My boyfriends parents are both 92 and we have a patient who is 94 and still working. All these seniors are sharp and quick thinking as ever. I would not be surprised if he lives beyond 100 years old
Thank you MSP for another great episode with Mike & Nemo. These clips of talks from LDS leaders make absolutely no sense and are a bunch of word salad.
Brilliant!! So many absolute great comments and points in this video. Hats off to all three of you, and thank you. 👍👍
I submitted my excommunication form recently. As soon as I was out of my parents home, I considered the Mormon church in the rear view mirror (naive- as I didn’t consider the mind f^€£ery that stays with you). I found my own, much deeper and more loving, relationship to a higher power and life. I just thought: why should I bother with excommunication. I don’t believe in it. It’s not important to me. After hearing these deeper stories, I realize I need to do this as a protest. Sorry for the rant. Thanks for the channel.
For it is written. If anyone lack wisdom ask of the Lord and he will answer. Amen and amen
I love the ranting, and I also love how John is coming up with very interesting topics for the future on the fly. This series is awesome!
APOYO TOTAL A MORMON STORIES PODCAST, QUE SIGA LA REVOLUCION
My daughter went stelth camping with her pal and pitched a tent on top of the roof of a 18th century church, they used a flat section of the roof covered in lead to get a comfortable spot, unfortunately they didn't realize that this church was still in use and got the fright of their lives when the bells began ringing very early the next morning. They had been using what they thought was a disused chimney pot as a toilet, unfortunately this chimney connected to the ministers changing room and they discovered a fireplace full of human solid waste inside the church. My daughter and hers pal had some explaining to do when the security arrived!
For it is written, greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world. Amen and amen.
Right on John!!!!
Dont know why but I never have felt the Spirit in this UA-cam channel. I apoligize for that. Greetings from México. City.
Thankyou so much Mike, Nemo, and John!
I love these episodes about doubts. Wish there were even more of these.
If I have doubts, I explore them. I analyze why I doubt. Being a skeptic keeps a person from being a sucker.
Yes, John! 1 hour, 35 min. Get it!
I’m 100% American!
Love Charles Harrell’s book! “ This is my Doctrine”. He had to hold on publishing it until he retired from his job as a professor at BYU. Read this! It’s so good 😊
He actually released it years ago before he retired.
@@dannylarsen4290 I stand corrected. I thought I heard that on BYP. Either way, it’s a wonderful book.
I'm glad this episode took the time to separate belief in Heavenly Father from the claims of organized religions such as the church. I've come to discover from talking to people of all beliefs that there are God-knowing as well as wicked people in every imaginable sect on earth, so God is something bigger and transcendent. Most people like to live in an echo chamber but when you get to know people on a personal basis, you can tell where there spiritual loyalty lies in how they treat others no matter what they claim to believe.
Thank you for this video. ❤️🕯️
Thank you
I have watched them all!!!!
Check if someone believes that Joseph Smith translated and ask “Would you hire Joseph Smith as an Egyptian translator at a museum?”
I love all three of you . Very brave .
It takes faith. Sounds like it takes believing things whether they make sense or not.
Did they ever actually reverse the ban on oral sex, or just tell them not to delve into personal matters between married people?
I've often thought of my Mormon pioneer ancestor as suffering and dying for religious freedom - the right to choose how they worship. With this in mind, using ancestors to keep members to stay in the church feels like hypocrisy to the sacrifice the pioneers gave.
You guys are the perfect combo
Excellent episode as per usual. It's just really difficult to listen to because of the church leaders RIDICULOUS claims and words 🤦♀️ Ugh, how did I fail for that for so long?! It's embarrassing on this end.😣
Ugh, to the memory of when I was a member and Brother Whatshisname called to say the bishop wants to meet with you on Tuesday. I say why? And he was so bothered. How dare I question why the Bishop needs to see me. He answers begrudgingly that it was for a calling. I said no to the calling in the appointment call and he was bothered again. We are trained by our mothers to be so sweet and we just give all of our power away.
It takes faith to follow prophets who consistently fail to prophecy, fail to see and fail to reveal anything useful !
Humbling, I remember never going back to church and my family in Laie being freaked out when I went to visit BYUH
Kudos to Nemo on the doctor analogy. People who investigate the truth claims are truly hurting and in pain spiritually. The repercussions of this are real whether it's physically, psychologically, financially and emotionally. This oozes into every aspect of a doubter's life. It's no joke and pouring shame onto the process is so dangerous. Sincere people are feeling the literal symptoms of this spiritual manipulation and the audacity of a prophet standing up telling this person that they are lazy is disgusting to me. The cure is truth, real tangible truth. The best thing that the church could say to its true believing members about someone who is doubting is, "Get out of their way. Support them when they need your support. Love them anyway. Respect their process." I know that's a pipe dream.
God is like Michael Scott: “I do want all of the credit and none of the blame.”
Thank you for this episode. Mike is always particularly good at explaining the details. As is Nemo. Doubly good episode.
Thank you John for being more bold and saying how it is. The church is engaged in mind-control.
Even though I left decades ago, what I went through joining the church, going on a mission, being in a bishopric, and the rest of my Mormon experience still taints my life.
The church sure preys on people from troubled lives, and unloads a manipulative load of deception on them to get them to join, and then rule over their life, and especially to get you to become and remain a "worthy temple recommend holder" = a tithe-paying member who accepts and does every calling as a minion for the global grifting church.
I have no doubt that the Nelson and the other top church leaders know 100% they are lying, deceiving, misrepresenting, agreeing to revisionist history, and participating in global grifting that keeps making the church wealthier. They are in deep. It's their pay, health insurance, other benefits, their social life, their business life, and their entire existence.
When you remove the window dressing, you can see that the only way they can "sell their product" (salvation/forever families) is to make people feel like they are not good enough and need an authority figure to follow. I don't trust anyone who tells me that I need to obey them and give them money in order to have a chance at God welcoming me into heaven. The mormon church leaders absolutely know they're lying. It's a grift.
As John always says, "I love it!"
This has helped me immensely Mike, thank you. 1:49:36
When I was a very conservative Catholic and went to a parish community that was pretty high demand I used to look down on apostates as simpletons who didn't read from the Church sources or apologetics enough and I've come across some priests who might give rhetoric not too different than what Nelson did, in our case we refered to those who leave as "poorly catechized" as our equivalent to lazy learners and in my experience this is something used to gaslight those who're doubting (it worked on me for a couple of years which is why I was into theology and I still have episodes of self-gaslighting to this day even though it's been four years now since I left Christianity altogether). In all fairness my denomination wasn't nearly as anti-intellectual as most other churches seem to be so I guess that's something that kept me around as well.
Correct me if I'm wrong but my impression is that most ex-Mormons tend leave religion altogether, depending on what part of the world you're in most ex-Catholics merely switch to Evangelical or Pentecostal churches so I guess that contributed to the perception that those who did so weren't well educated while ignoring the other factors on why they might have left. As you can imagine I was a pretty arrogant facts and logic type of guy who mostly looked down on less devout and more liberal Catholics for not being Catholic enough (but I looked down on and mocked Protestants even more and during those years I never took Mormons seriously regardless of what they thought of us as I thought it was super obvious Joseph Smith was a false prophet and wondered why would anyone follow him).
I keep coming to ex-Mormon podcast like yours because there isn't a whole a lot of material specifically for us and also because I've already found more similarities with you guys than I do with most exvangelicals or even other ex-Catholics, I really appreciate it as I've found so many similarities on the methods apologetics of different churches use to prevent their members from leaving.
30:07 this is something used to argue for the veracity of the Resurrection because why would the Apostles die for a lie or a hallucination? An exvangelical channel called Belief it or not recently did an episode on this and actually brought up Joseph Smith as an example of people dying for things that aren't true.
It’s interesting because I always wondered if the 12 and presidency actually communicated with Jesus. Actually when the Church came out with the special witness of Jesus Christ it shocked me that none of them communicated that they had spoken with Christ face to face.
Elder Oaks actually said this “I’ve never had an experience like that and I don’t know anyone among the 1st Presidency or Quorum of the 12 who’ve had that kind of experience.”
Blew my mind to learn that.
Thank you for your hard work and amazing content; unrelated but I like your voice John, you’d make a good voice actor role for a cool and fun uncle.
Ultimately, the only thing that the leaders of the Church REALLY want you to have faith in...is their authority. They want you to have faith in the notion that God has appointed and anointed them to be your boss, to have power over you and to tell you what God is commanding you to do today. And if they tell you something different tomorrow, what they are saying today won't matter...because today will be yesterday tomorrow and tomorrow will be today.
Today, it's okay for people of African descent to hold the priesthood and go to the temple because many yesterdays ago, the leaders chose not to believe. They chose not to believe that their predecessors in authority were speaking for God when they decreed the "doctrine" that required people of African descent to not be allowed to hold the priesthood and receive temple blessings.
Today, it's okay for women in the temple to NOT swear an oath to submit to their husbands, because just a few yesterdays ago, the leaders chose not to believe that part of the temple endowment ordinance was necessary, even though their predecessors in authority had decreed it to be essential.
Today, the leaders continue to choose to believe that God does not want women to hold the priesthood. Tomorrow, the leaders may choose not to believe that.
It's a grand game of Simon Says...the Mormon "Prophet Says" version. "Prophet sez gimme your money and don't give the priesthood to African people." Okaay. "Prophet sez gimme your money and do give the priesthood to African people." Okaaay! "Now, don't gimme your money, but do give the priesthood to women." OKAAAY! "Prophet sez ha ha ha! Gotcha. I didn't say Prophet sez....so keep giving your money and do not give the priesthood to women." Ohhhh. You got us good, Prophet guy. We weren't paying close enough attention. "Prophet sez...go shopping at City Creek!" We're on our way there right now, Prophet guy.
LISTEN TO THOSE DOUBTS and RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, Nemo. They should be offering compelling reasons to believe.
It seems that Warren Jeffs and Russell Nelson are trying to outdo each other with the creepy soft tone whilst bossing people around, and the slow cadence like they’re trying to force you to effortfully listen so you don’t think.
The TRUTH! ❤️🌟👏❤️
Just watching clips from talks like Kyle McKay is giving here makes me remember how conditioned, aka brainwashed, I was just 3 years ago. So happy to be free from their mind control.
Believing in the goodness of the church in spite of compelling argumentation against it is not willful ignorance. It's the opposite. There's compelling argumentation against the existence of God. There's also compelling argumentation for the existence of God. Your faith in the existence of God (and the truth of your argumentation) is what will allow you to withstand the argumentation to the contrary.
The “lazy” ones are the ones who don’t question anything.
I come here to get my daily dose of sanity.😊
Thanks!
Even as a kid I realized their idea of prayer didn’t make sense. It was always “God’s will” either way. I’m agnostic now but my prayer life is better than ever because I do it for me because it makes me feel good, not because I think it has supernatural powers
I have an urge to speak my heart to the universe. I am open to god but I’ve never found him. I know the Mormon god is not real. But I still can’t bring myself to pray. The other day my wife, who is a convert from Korea and now would lean toward Buddhism, out of know where asks me if I want to start praying with her at night again. We never really did when we were believing Mormons. My relationship with my wife is totally different than it was when I was believing in that Mormon mindset. I’m sure prayer with her would be much more meaningful to me now
1:15:00 There are compelling reasons to doubt but we don't have time to talk about all 247, we would be here 24/7 lol, so maybe if we had 168 hours we could cover ALL of the compelling reasons to doubt.
1:43:10 "It's not about the facts, it's about who's side you're on."
~Nemo
I totally fell into the ancestor guilt for many years. 😭
Religions create Atheist
Why Do LDS Reject GOD of BIBLE & believe in FALSE GOD of Joseph Smith?
Isn't your eternity worth examining the truth?
NO truth: Book of Abraham published with 3 facsimiles taken from an ancient papyrus, shown to be a fraud years later. The book is a funerary papyrus showing scenes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. In Facsimiles Nos. 1 & 3, Smith misidentifies everything depicted. "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists agree that the characters on the fragments do not match the translation given in the book of Abraham" Quote from LDS OFFICIAL WEB PAGE
NO trace of the “Two million Jaredites slain” (Ether 15:2), with iron, brass, breast-plates, shields, and armor. This is 3 times the # of Americans killed in the entire Civil War & Revolutionary War combined.
NO trace of the great city Zarahemla- it would be impossible for a city the size of Zarahemla (Alma 5:2; D&C 125:3) to leave no trace
NO trace of Jewish dna found in any Indian burial ground anywhere in the Americas from time period of BOM. Thomas W. Murphy, (Mormon scholar, DNA researcher):“We are in a dilemma, the genetic evidence shows that American Indians are not Hebrews, they are not Israelites. The Book of Mormon is not true.” John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2005
NO temple like Solomon's described in 2 Nephi 5:16 has ever been found yet biblical temple remains in Jerusalem
NO Nephite "reformed Egyptian" writings ever found anywhere as it is not a language found in the world
NO cities mentioned in the BOM have ever been located (none of 38) anywhere
NO evidence: "The whole land was covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous, as it were the sand of the sea." Yet not one ever located. (Mormon 1:7) IMPOSSIBLE for highly advanced civilizations (Jaredites, Nephites) & MILLIONS of people to have vanished
The BOM speaks of sheep, swine, silk, wool clothing & elephants existing in the Americas when they did not. 1 Ne.13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24 These were brought to America centuries later by Europeans.
NO wheat, no goats, no steel found in the Americas, no metal smelting furnaces, no metal armor, no steel swords, no cattle, no chariot parts, no brass (Mosiah 8:10) no evidence of the listed Kings in BOM, no Jewish relics or Jewish Temples from supposed Jews, no metal plates like Nephites supposedly used, no middle eastern seeds growing, "which were brought from the land of Jerusalem ... and grew exceedingly" 1 Nephi 18:24
There is NO archaeological, anthropological, topological, linguistic, botanical or dna evidence to support the Book of Mormon. LDS anthropologist Dee Green: “The first myth we need to eliminate is that BOM archaeology exists” conceding 20 years of research “left us empty-handed” (Green 1969 p. 77)
CAN WE TRUST OUR HEARTS AS TO THE TRUTH OF THE BOOK OF MORMON since there is no evidence?
D&C Section 9:8-9 - tell us that if something is true it will make our "bosom burn" and we will FEEL that it is right.
This is NOT how the bible tells us to determine truth. Acts 17:11 "they... EXAMINED THE SCRIPTURES EVERY DAY to see if what Paul said was TRUE"; "TEST THEM ALL" 1 Thes 5:21 The best way to spot false teachers is to examine the TRUTH of the bible. 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV "STUDY to show thyself approved unto God, ... rightly dividing the word of TRUTH." 1 John 4:1 says: "BELIEVE NOT EVERY SPIRIT, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because MANY FALSE PROPHETS are gone out into the world."
Maroni 10:4 says: "he will manifest the truth of it unto you" But: THE BIBLE WARNS YOU about trusting your own heart. Jeremiah 17:9 "the heart is DECEITFUL above all things". Proverbs 28:26 "He that trusts in his own heart is a FOOL." "The sum of your word is TRUTH" Psalm 119:160
Faith in a false God is of what value? Faith in the true God is invaluable.
Mormonism is based on a PROVABLY FALSE claim the Bible was corrupted and "plain and precious parts" were removed by Christian translators after the apostles died. Yet, there isn’t ANY specific biblical scripture found ANYWHERE, EVER, that directly supports Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible.
AN OBJECTIVE TEST OF THE BIBLE AND THE BOOK OF MORMON:
The Claim: In the BOM, the prophet Nephi has a vision the Bible was corrupted after the 12 apostles and after the formation of the “great and abominable church” (1 Nephi 13:26-29). Most Mormons believe this is the Catholic Church formed in the 4th century. Nephi claims this church was founded by the Devil (1 Nephi 14:3). So let’s objectively examine both the Bible & BOM to be fair and test for errors.
BIBLE: The Dead Sea Scrolls have been dated to as early as 350 BC. One is the Great Isaiah Scroll, which is the oldest known copy of the Book of Isaiah dated to 180 BC.
Do ANY ancient scrolls show Smith's "uncorrupted" version of scripture? NO! Yet they would if the scripture was later corrupted after the 12 apostles died as Smith said.
Also, if they had been corrupted, Jesus would have corrected scripture instead of affirming it! Jesus sd:“ I told you EVERYTHING written about me in the Law of Moses, the Books of the Prophets, and in the Psalms had to happen.” (Luke 24:44-46)
Scripture is the same today as it was 2,100+ years ago with only minor spelling or punctuation differences. Joseph Smith was wrong. These scrolls pre-dated Catholics, and are Jewish scrolls and the BOM says the Jews had the Scriptures in their "purity". 1Nephi 13:25
LDS Apologist Wayne Ham admitted the Isaiah scroll does not support the the BOM. Apologist Dr. Sidney B. Sperry, of BYU, said the Dead Sea Scrolls do not help the case for the BOM. BYU Professor Joseph F. McConkie: "Rather than Joseph Smith as Found in Ancient Manuscripts, it ought be Joseph Smith as Lost in Ancient Manuscripts.” (Religious Studies Center, 1984)
IS THE GOD OF THE BOOK OF MORMON THE SAME ONE AS IN THE BIBLE? NO!
"Before me NO god was formed, nor shall there be ANY after me.” (Isaiah 43:10) If Mormonism is true, then God could not make this claim, for he was just a man at one point; nor could he claim that no gods would come after him, for that is the goal of LDS members.
Like Joseph Smith this was the goal of Satan, to be like God and have worshippers. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God ... I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14)
The new testament has not been corrupted either. See John 1:1 Smith changed it to make Jesus a created being. Research a 1900 year old papyri known as the Bodmer Papyri of the book of John. (written 150 AD, not long after the apostle John died)
John 1:1 "In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD WAS God." ΕΝ ΑΡΧΗ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΗΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΝ ΘΕΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΕΟΣ ΗΝ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ (look up this ancient Greek yourself on google)
John 1:1 Joseph Smith translation: "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God." Smith's Jesus is no longer God in the flesh but the biblical Jesus is: "God was manifest in the flesh" 1Tim. 3:16 KJV
There are 4,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Some go back to 350 AD and NONE support Joseph Smith's claims that the bible of today has been corrupted.
Papyrus fragments exist of the New Testament dated to 175 AD and show that the new testament has NOT been "corrupted". (New Testament Docs: Are They Reliable? Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1967 pp. 15-17)
In the LDS Church’s 147th Conf., Gen Authority Bernard P. Brockbank said: the Christ followed by Mormons is NOT THE CHRIST followed by traditional Christianity. (Ensign, May 1977 p. 26)
The manuscript and archeological evidence for the BIBLE is the GREATEST in antiquity. I pray you know the true Jesus and not Joseph Smith's version.
Galatians 1:8 "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL to you than that which we have preached to you, let him be ACCURSED." Matthew 24:24 warns Satan WILL send FALSE prophets and pose as an ANGEL of light! 2 Corinthians 11:14
God is much greater than the humanoid of Mormonism and NOT just ONE OF AN ENDLESS NUMBER OF GODS.
Jesus said ALL scripture will NOT fade away but "many wolves in sheep's clothing" will come trying to ADD to the word. Mathew 7:15 Joseph Smith changed Jesus, the Father and ADDED you can become a GOD.
It hurts my heart to see Mormons fall for the lie that we can become God when there is only one eternal God found in the bible.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of Gods are those that enter into polygamy." (Brigham Young) Journal of Discourses 11 p.269
Apostle Orson Pratt, in The Seer, page 172, “the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist…the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many wives, … The son followed the example of his Father"
God gave us critical thinking & logical reasoning for a reason, which is why he tells us to EXAMINE and TEST what we are being taught for TRUTH. The bible withstands the truth test. Joseph Smith's version fails the truth test. It's your eternity, study it for yourself. God bless.
U mentioned the report why people leave the church. Where is the link?
1:23:55 haha Mike I love it. So true
“Who are both dead inside” 😌😌
Hahahaha😂
I just submitted their names to the temple so that their work can be done for them. If they feel a great wetness at some point in the future, that means that someone has just done a voodoo proxy baptism on their behalf in the temple.
How was the Book of Mormon come about? It is a magnificent tome!
I don't believe RMN's mocking of ex-mormons as lazy learners is a message to ex-mormons. It is a message to current mormons. If you leave, you will be mocked and laughed at by us, so it's best if you stay.
You the way that Nelson describes prophetic revealation reminds me of something from the Avatar comics. In the comic the villian of the show, Fire Lord Ozai, claims that whatever the Fire Lord says or does is right by virtue of the fact that he is the Fire Lord. Obviously the comics call this out as a dangerous sentimant that leads to awful tragedies. It is also simlar to Nelsons idea that any strong feeling or impression a prophet has is from God. And much like Ozai's, Nelson's misconception can and has lead to terrible and heartrending calamity.
His veiled term “doubts” really means answers. They just aren’t the answers the church wants us to find.