As a reminder, this video isn't to attack anyone or label anyone as a terrible person, I don't do that in the video, but I know bad actors will take it that way. I don't condone any attacks on people, I can disagree with you, but I don't want anyone to get on the case of others over an interpretation of media - Even if it's an interpretation I view as dishonest, that doesn't give you a green light to attack others. If you disagree with me on any interpretations that I have, or believe that the characters are whatever you view them as, that's fine. I am merely expressing my interpretation and how I view some critiques to be made in bad faith. I try not to do things in bad faith myself, but like I said in the video, I don't view my analysis as the be all end all of this discussion. Just be kind to people, enjoy media, and if you're gonna analyze something, please, just be open minded that you could be wrong.
This is exactly why you may be whatever orientation you are, but you'll never be accepted as part of "the community" In your mind people are allowed to disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with that in any sense aside from the view of authoritarian dogma, but unfortunately "the community" holds that above all else. You're better off just being yourself and accepting yourself for what you are than wanting any sort of in or acceptance from a group of authoritarians. You aren't something those sort of people have yet to deem worthy of even defining with a single letter. You're a person. .-.
Before anyone says anything in response to that let it be known not necessarily for you angrily commenting, but for actually sane people I have nothing against any individual person that community currently claims to represent. I just oppose the mainstream movement. I've never in all my years seen anyone more hate filled or bigoted towards anyone that community claims to represent than the movement itself if anyone of those orientations thinks even slightly differently from what the movement approves of. I'd compare the movement to PETA, but even PETA has treated animals they slaughtered to "save" them more humanely than people I've been friends with that had an opinion contrary to what the movement approves of. .-.
To be fair most people who would attack you for this are tumblr refugees on Twitter who were the same group of people who weren’t above harassing a person to nearly committing suicide because that person drew a character in a way they didn’t like in a fan art!
Ok, you had md until you brought on that bundle of sticks towards the end. Also, Kamen, try not to be too open minded, otherwise your brain might fall out of your head.
Persona 4 is actually all about social media, gossip and how easy it is for the truth to be lost in it, when you really look at it. Some of the lyrics in the opening theme: "We are living our lives Abound with so much information Come on, let go of the remote; don't you know you're letting all the junk flood in? I try to stop the flow, double-clicking on the go, but it's no use; hey, I'm being consumed Loading loading loading, quickly reaching maximum capacity Warning warning warning, gonna short-circuit my identity (ahhhhh)" It's amazing how ahead of its time that was, it could be because mobile phones caught on in Japan much earlier than they did in the west.
Persona 4 discourse kinda shines a light on how media analysis/literacy has progressed (or more stagnated) as the years go by. The stories behind Naoto and Kanji isn't simply, "Oh, Naoto's trans actually" or "Kanji's totally gay." It's about them learning not to be held down by societal stereotypes about them. Naoto was embarrassed to be a girl not because of gender dysphoria, but because she believed that being part of the police/detective department meant that she'd be looked down upon because she was a girl. Kanji's deal is that he's afraid of showing his softer, more sensitive side because he wants to be viewed as tough, masculine guy, who isn't tied to "weaknesses" like looking or acting feminine. It's why the story's themes hit as hard as it does and is also why the whole "character is x-coded" stuff annoys me because it's just a slightly prettier way of putting people into stereotypes.
For real though: It's hilariously ironic how in the quest for more Representation, we've seemingly, paradoxically, doubled down on gender stereotypes that only served to distress people when they didn't "fit in". Female character has masculine interests or a Butch personality? Must be a Lesbian/Trans Man: Girls aren't like that, after all. Male character has a love for softer things or dressing up? Must be Gay/Trans Woman: Boys have to be tough and strong, after all. Seriously, whatever happened to the "Don't let gender stereotypes hold you back from being yourself" messaging?
Media discourse in general has been ruined by kneejerk-reactionary BSery from both sides of the political spectrum (like Sergio's clearly blaming the other side for the problems with the world showing a clear lack of any capacity for nuance for example while ignoring the fact that both sides are equally guilty of ruining discourse and analysis) so it's little wonder media analysis has likewise degraded to face-value BSery.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo Last Jedi was mediocre, not terrible or great, there was nothing terrible or great about Han Solo dying or Rey being a jedi and the main protaganist, she's boring but not any more or less of a "mary sue" than Anakin or Luke.
The thing that kinda muddies it are the shadows though. Like I know what they're supposed to mean, but for a person first playing the game seeing Kanji's shadow say "I am a shadow, the true self" followed by "I like men" it's VERY easy to take it at face value. I think framing it as "people say this character is queer-coded because he likes feminine things" is also very disingenuous. Let's be real, if Kanji had just showed up and said he likes sewing (no shadows involved) his sexuality would not be a controversial topic at all. I don't think people are just playing into stereotypes when they say he's queer-coded.
As a Gay male myself, I deeply resonated with Kanji and his struggles cause it felt it was directly taken from my life, throughout my childhood and teens I had to deal with a lot of negative stuff, I was different from most kids, I didn't like football or sports for that matter, I wouldn't roughouse or play with car models etc, I was more of a soft kid who would enjoy spending time indoors doing more arts 'n crafting stuff like drawing and enjoying media and later easily most of my life shifted into online stuff, and also living in a small town that feels trapped in the past, there was a lot of negative stuff thrown my way, the other kids would call me names and even bully me, even my own dad would act like a piece of shit with me cause I wasn't the "manly man" son he wanted and constantly try to force his believes onto me, like forcing me into a soccer team or.. gambling, and later in Highschool when I started to come out I was freakin out and burrying myself in layers of denial cause I was groomed into believing that gay males are... "wrong" and if I was one, who knew what could happen to me, those were really dark days, I was messed up, I would even Google shit like "how to stop being gay", but as time went on, thanks to getting to know other gay folks and pieces of media like P4, I started to climb my way out of the dark hole I dug for myself, and eventually accepted the fact that I'm gay, and that I wasn't less of a person or that I deserved to be punished, I learned to block out all the insults and stereotypes and just not give a damn about what others might think of me. And honestly now that Persona, a piece of media I deeply love on a personal level, has entered mainstream thanks to P5 and ports, a lot of people who play it only see the surface level, saying stuff like "Kanji's totally gay" or "Naoto's definetely trans" and getting pissed over the fact that the game or the fandom at large won't acknowledge or try to "contradict it" pisses me off, granted on my first playthrough I also thought Kanji was gay 'cause of how much of myself I saw on him, but that was me projecting hard, on later playthroughs I understood Kanji's story and struggles and that they don't really are about him being gay, but I didn't care, Kanji still resonated a lot with me, didn't matter if he was gay or not at the end of the day, cause what he went through and his resolution to push forward and improve himself are still real. Ironic how these people are literally part of the problem of forcing social labels onto people based on surface level impression, that made Kanji and Naoto feel forced to hide their insecurities and true self and put on a mask to be able to be "accepted".
Keep in mind that the people insisting that Kanji is gay/bi and Naoto is trans are dealing with the same frustrations as yourself. It's very understandable for them to interpret those two as being queer, and it detracts nothing whatsoever from their stories if they're queer. So imagine how they feel when Atlus and the fandom is so adamant that they aren't. But, unlike the other side of this coin, there's a potential explanation behind their opponent's intentions. Because, let's be honest here, there's still a small subset of gamers who will throw an entitled reactionary hissy-fit at any mention whatsoever of including a gay character. They treat any kind of character diversity as a personal attack against them, like a horde of woke leftists is coming to kick down their doors and turn the casts of all their favorite games into the Burger King Kids Club. I'm definitely not saying that everyone arguing otherwise is bigoted. There's multiple reasons to hold such an interpretation. But it's still a substantial force behind the pushback, and that can't be ignored. Edit: The replies to this comment have only proven my point. Literally nothing but ad-homonym attacks, nonsensical assumptions, and the most poorly-constructed strawman arguments I've ever seen. If a dozen+ people can't articulate why they're THIS vehemently opposed to the existence of a queer character, then... well, what other explanation is there?
People think Naoto is trans? Even though they probably played the game?.. What the actual fuck? If naoto decided to become trans that'd be toxic as hell! Her problem wasn't gender dysphoria, it was societal preasure! If they played the game, they should know that!
@@jimmy2dumb105 Yeah, unlike Kanji who's conflict wasn't about him being gay/bi, he could still be either since it's open to interpretation and left unanswered cause again, that wasn't the source of his struggles, Naoto downright tell us that she's not "a male inside a female body" or something between those lines, the reason she pretended to be male for a time it was cause the Detective workforce like many jobs, it's centered around males and if she was still presenting as female, everyone would treat her as even lesser of a contributor, they already did cause she was a child but it could've be even worse of they knew she was female, if she decided to transition just to fit the view of that others would be indeed very toxic and give the message that females can only hope to achieve their goals and overcome their obstacles that come from how misogynistic society can be by just becoming a man and play along.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo - I hope you're not conflating queer people wanting a character that shares this *one* trait, as them wanting the character to be "identical". Queer people are already able to relate to an entire cast of non-queer characters. We've been doing it our entire lives. So why are some non-queer people so utterly petulant about the idea of trying to relate to a cast with *one* queer character?
Dang it’s almost like people can relate to fictional characters who don’t have the same sexuality as them, which is something Twitter should learn. Glad you learned that man. Sometimes we project what we wanna see onto other people or fictional characters, instead of seeing what is really there, kinda like the Midnight Channel.
There are 3 reasons why Kanji is my favorite: 1. Kanji's emotional arc resonates with me. 2. Speedo means you're comfortable with your body. 3. Give 'em the CHAIR!
To be fair most of those people on Twitter are tumblr refugees who were the same people who bully a person to nearly committing suicide because they drew a character in a fan adt a way they didn’t like!
Funny story, you see two hours after this video was released the guy who was gaslighting people that “atlus did a shitting writing job with Persona 4 and on its characters” who’s also the one claiming that he’s better then us because he “has an English degree” made a reaction video about Kamen’s new persona 4 video and they probably were trying to correct him on his video (I dunno, I didn’t watch that guy’s video and I’m not planning in doing so, this is just my assumption. Also don’t go after him, it would be a waste of time) so yeah you were totally right.
@@The_GhostWind I watched bits of it, he was literally raging lol. He made it unlisted just not to get dislikes or corrected… Thankfully, he lost alot of attraction since the tweet and everything seems to be getting back as it was in the community. Just ignore him
I sometimes get confused whenever people debate about Kanji's sexuality. He is into girls as revealed from his feeling towards Naoto, but before this Kanji still had those same feelings before he knew her actual gender. But one thing I keep track is how he never showed these feelings to anyone other than Naoto. So as a fun harmless joke I like to say he's NaotoSexual.
The most terrible thing that can happen to any fan of a controversial or misinterpretable piece of media is to trend on Twitter. For a trend to be positive on Twitter, it has to be in utter agreement, or a meme that is innocuous, or the topic itself has to be so mundane and universal no one can generate controversy over it.
@@iantaakalla8180 Even if the trend is positive, it's worrisome. As it brings attention to the product for the twitter vultures to pick it apart, nitpick and cancel it.
The thing I love most about media is empathizing with characters who share a core aspect I can relate to even if not the same experiences. Or admiring those I wish I could be more like. Kanji and Naoto are kinda a mix. My personality is like neither of them. My experiences aren’t exactly the same as them. But I do connect with them. That fear of rejection and wanting to be relied on is something that strikes deeply with me. And I admire both of them greatly. I don’t need a character to be exactly like me to feel a connection. Representation is important. Headcanons are fantastic. But I feel we lost the importance of empathizing and connecting with those who aren’t just like us. It’s okay to have a different interpretation so long as we don’t force them on others. They won’t be as receptive if you force your opinions. I like hearing people who have a different interpretation because it exposes me to different ideas and also help me connect with that person. But at the end of the day, it’s okay if you disagree. The internet is so concerned with wanting to prove we’re right and everyone is wrong we’ve forgotten how to just sit down and be okay with those who see things with a different lens.
Whats crazy is Social Media wasnt even really a thing at that time, especially in the years before that it took to write and make the game. It sure called it though.
If you think persona 4 was a scary example of how accurately the Japanese predicted online culture then you would have a heart attack if you looked at the first generation of dot hack
Atlus: Kanji is a character who has always been misunderstood and had his manhood questioned due to his softer sides. This has made Kanjo turn into raging, insecure person unable to form proper relationships due to fear of rejection. His story is commentary on social expectations and inspection what it means to be strong man. Twitter-PEOPLE: KANJI IS GAY, YOU BIGOTS! PERSONA IS HOMOPHOBIC GAME! The story never ends
@@CheshireCad at much i could see Kanji being bisexual, and you just prove it the comment right, why has Kanji has to be gay? Why not characters like Yosuke or Yukiko or the protagonist, why the guy whose whole arc is leaving stereotypes behind
So i'm a trans guy, and while I don't feel that Naoto's storyline is trans, I can see how Naoto's story would specificaly speak to trans women, as opposed to trans men. but I honestly agree with the points you made here! I've always interpreted Kanji as bi, but specifically due to his crush on Naoto before an after finding out that she's a girl. But like you said, that's not the point of his story and chracter. Kanji is a character I heavily relate to and love so much, and I think he's a shining example of interests not determining one's identity.
This was an excellent video and shows a clear understanding of the themes and truths of Persona 4. Even though I only completed P4 last year every time the “Naoto is trans” or “Kanji is gay” discussion gets brought up my eyes roll so far back they pop out of my eye sockets. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding at best and most of the time, it’s a bad faith interpretation of every line with the player doing everything they can to disconnect every sentence from surrounding context. What’s more frustrating is that people will use parts of the games actual problematic lines as evidence, which while those scenes are terribly aged, don’t support the argument. It’s a different issue entirely. I connected with Kanji and loved his character because he paralleled issues I faced as a teenager. I used to get mocked and told I was “girly” or “fruity” because of my voice, the way I sit, my favourite colour, anything, man. It lead me to in my teenage years doing everything I could to appear as masculine as possible. Working out, intentionally making my voice deeper, sitting with my legs spread as possible. It wasn’t who I was, but I was too scared of being rejected or ostracised. I think Persona 4 portrays these issues well, and to see people completely misinterpret the scenes sucks to see. Again, this video was great, and you should be very proud. Much love ❤
It's really odd people automatically label Kanji as gay because of his shadow when his whole story arc and the game itself is basically about shaking off stereotypes from certain labels and seeing more than the surface level I feel people get too desperate to have physical representation that they don't realize how, even people with completely different lives and appearances, can have very similar lives and problems. I also feel these types of people are usually the ones that claim they want to understand everyone
People are dumb, persona 4 is a pretty simple story but they were able to see absurd things in it. ..... well I guess after Akechi’s case I should not be surprised anymore (so many people are convinced he’s a puppet of Shido or Yaoldabaoth).
@@Gafafsg *sigh* The game doesn’t say Yaoldabaoth was controlling Akechi and Joker it directly states he can’t control either of them and he was just enjoying the show. Maybe you weren’t paying attention.
@@edwardsuou to be absolutely fair He set up akechi to go down his path, then did the same with joker, albeit more directly Akechi without yaldabaoths attention would've gotten nowhere, he had to get the app deliberately to start doing what he was doing Akechi says be it god or demon, he got the app, which clearly put him down his path That's only possible through yaldabaoths intervention, as is stated as such by lavenza, especially clarifying that akechi and joker would inevitably meet and clash thanks to said interventions Steering a river doesn't mean you have to control the flow of said river, being a catalyst can be enough to put someone down the path So, yes, he wasn't puppeteering akechi, but he did give him the tools to go down the road he did, so he had a hand in it, period
Presently, it kinda pisses me off how tomboys are seen as trans. Like I used to get the same questions as Kanji and Naoto. “Are you gay because you like things like Star Wars and Power Rangers?” “Are you a guy or something cause you don’t dress feminine enough, you’re weird.” Especially teenagers, hyper focus on who people think they are, and words hurt more than they actually should. It’s all apart of growing up and growing into yourself. I’m still kinda a tomboy, tho I dress more feminine now depending on my mood. I found out for myself that I wasn’t gay, nor was I trans, instead of forcing myself into that box and going along with how people saw me as, a weird quiet tomboy who should be gay or a guy. Kinda like how Twitter wants Kanji and Naoto match what they perceive them as, and not who they actually are.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo then persona 4 just proves people just wanna see something what's in thier head not the truth what's right front of them , is like what they said fail see thing's what is not there
i t really feels sometimes like some people applying "Accepting your self" as a lgbtq only thing, as if other people have no problems or struggle. Heck there was a video once about psychonauts 2 and how Raz family struggle was appearently queer representation.... you know, psychonauts 2, the game with an open homosexuel married couple that is treated normaly like everyone else in the game.
The joys of what we like becoming Mainstream. Even had to deal with in Super Robot Wars 30 of all places. Never thought a game about Mecha Anime getting mashed up would have to deal with this crap as well.
@@nesmario123 For Ange in Majestic Prince they decided in the English Translation to have the rest of the Pilots discussing if they should ask Ange what her/his proper Pronouns are, instead of just saying if they should ask if Ange is a Boy or Girl like in the Japanese Text. It was shown in a proper Translation that they are only discussing about if they are a Boy or Girl. Not only do they change that text but they added in text where other Characters are Shammed and called Creepy for even wondering about it. To top it all off its hinted that Ange is Trans. For anyone who has watched MJP this is never the case as its a running Joke that Ange is rather Androgynous and no one get around to asking her/he. Just for talking about this I was Permanently Banned from the Steam Forums with no Warning, let alone telling me why.
Thank you for clearing up that Naoto isn't trans. I've tried to explain it to some people but..... well you can take a guess what was said to me. :/ And you are absolutely correct about things being a product of their time period and thus were not made with the modern mindset, so it'd be unfair to push what's 'correct' today onto what was yesteryear. Keep in mind the same people saying they're on 'the right side of history', which is BS because history always changes as do social norms, would be saying and believing the opposite of what they currently believe if they were born and raised in the 1800s.
I've always viewed "Being on the wrong side of history" as only applying to actions and opinions which would be considered wrong even at the time. Like how torturing a slave to death was obviously an inhuman thing to do even in the 1800's. Right now we're in an award transition state when it come to queer rights. On the one hand, companies still do have minor reasons to be hesitant about including queer characters, since some major foreign countries are vehemently bigoted and would ban the movie/show/film, if not the company itself. But, on the other hand... Oh my fuck, just stop being a bunch of pearl-clutching little pussies hanging onto the Hays Code like fucking Joe McCarthy is about to ooze out of his grave and start Jim Crow 2: Rainbow Boogaloo.
I'm honestly surprised nobody talks about how Naoto's shadow tackles the subject on a male-oriented society. The whole reason why Naoto's shadow wanted to make Naoto a man was because of Naoto's inner desire to succeed in the police force, which at the time was *very* skewed into male favor.
The Naoto thing is the one that irritates me the most. It’s a very Japanese character arc: Japan is a patriarchal country, Naoto makes the public think she’s male because they won’t accept her as a detective otherwise. To turn it into “Naoto’s trans and if you disagree you’re transphobic” is to strip away the Japanese roots of the game and force a western filter on it
Actually the message is even less progressive than that. The game never even implied that her not being taken seriously is a bad thing for her fellow detectives to do, only that cross dressing to impress is childish. Based.
@@doublebassman123 What? Naoto’s shadow doesn’t imply she’s childish for wanting to fit in, it’s playing on her insecurities about being treated like less than, not only because she’s a girl, but also because she’s so young. All of the characters’ shadows behave in ways that intentionally get under their owners’ skin. Like how Yosuke doesn’t actually think the world is beneath him, or how Kanji isn’t actually attracted to men.
I'm surprised its not understood in the West still, as misogyny and what professions people expect women and men be in. Sexism still exists and I can understand why she dresses masculine to avoid being torn down over how she was born
What's worse, they use that Western *leftist* filter, let's clarify that part of it too, to criticize the game for supposedly having a bad take on their identitarian social politics of choice. That's what they do with EVERYTHING, though.
Long before I even knew who Kanji was I always thought it was weird that people viewed hobbies as explicitly Male and Female, to me hobbies were hobbies but after playing P4G I could see where I feel into similar traps as Kanji growing up and like he found out part of accepting who you are is growing a heart strong enough to not let others bother you, problem is some people can become bitter to it but I'm glad I had my brother and dad in my life to remind me that others only assume what they don't know, what matters is what you know so I don't hide myself or my hobbies, I can be a man that likes cute shit, a guy that draws, a guy that builds model kits
I still find it fascinating how Kanji’s struggles in-universe are tied to people not bothering to actually get to know him and instead judging him based on stereotypes… and he has this exact same problem in real life, which you would only realize if you decide to actually get to know him instead of relying on stereotypes
THANK YOU! Someone finally point this out. The midnight channel isn't a reflection of what's in someone's mind. It's a combination of inner insecurity and public perception. People labeling Kanji gay and Naoto Trans is exactly what the story is telling people not to do. *Kanji is Kanji*. Only thing we can say about Kanji definitively is that he likes Naoto. There are plenty of things the game fleshes out about Kanji and people are just focusing on the gay aspect that the game doesn't even care that much. It drives me crazy when people think all other aspect of kanji (like his affinity for girly stuff) is deriven from his gayness. p.s. that clip of Troy Baker is so typical of him and it gave me a brain tumor.
It’s almost exactly like Chihiro from Danganronpa, just wish people wouldn’t think how they feel equals the absolute truth. Hell gamegrumps skipped all of Chihiro’s backstory because they just assumed it was transphobic (honestly I don’t like their humor in general but I gave them a shot with Danganronpa… it was insufferable, their play style was beyond aggravating and how they treated Chihiro’s story was the last straw, never again).
Chihiro literally hates being seen as feminine and dies because he wanted to be buff and masculine so people seeing him as trans is borderline offensive
Yeah, I just encountered another let’s player just assume Chihiro’s backstory was transphobic via skipping it. They also thought it was “them justifying the murder” & thought Chihiro was happy presenting as female. No, the opposite happened, how did they miss that?
Well this is going to start a comment section war but it has to be done. WAY too many people are misreading P4 and I think we’re all tired of having to go through it again and again
I'm fine with people having different opinions and headconons, and learning to disagree with each other on matters which aren't established fact. It's the bad-faith parties on both sides which are ruining any possibility of mutual understanding. On twitter, it's the "Naoto is trans because of this one screenshot and if you talk about context you're a bigot" crowd. But elsewhere, including this comment section, is overrun with the small subset of gamers who will throw an entitled petulant hissy-fit at any mention whatsoever of including a gay character. They treat any kind of character diversity as a personal attack against them, like a horde of woke leftists is coming to kick down their doors and turn the casts of all their favorite games into the Burger King Kids Club. I'm definitely not saying that everyone with that interpretation is bigoted. There's multiple reasons to view it that way. But wow, that vocal minority brought enough butthurt for everyone.
@@CheshireCad There in lies the issue. So many people have gotten sick of being called everything in the book that they often have a knee jerk reaction. Did you know that back in the day if you were called a Nazie/Istaphob/Racist/Biggot they were considered a serious accusation? It has been so overused that its not different then calling someone a Jerk at this point. My Wife and I used to stand with the LGB Community back in the day, but once we dared to ask question that went against the "Message" we where called all these things. I have never once had a problem with people living as they wish, but getting called the same as the Worst Humanity has to offer makes one a bit prickly. I dont agree with anyone attacking someone for who they are, but I also refuse to be attacked just because I dont like Characters being changed to make others feel more "included". How about instead they, or even you, make New Characters and tell New Stories.
It's always ironic how a game whose central theme is truth, and humanity's constant struggle to perceive it, is so regularly misinterpreted or misrepresented, both intentionally & unintentionally. Ah well, still a great game. Golden helped me a lot with getting through my last year of high school (in 2020 mind), acting both as a comfort, and reflection of my struggle with understanding myself and perception of my world.
Kanji has "effeminate hobbies" like sewing or is the way the he saw as for Naoto, she was considere a brat by the police because her age and her personality made the police be anger with her (Akechi has more political mind and he is a manipulator). Naoto's shadow acts more a child, if it was a sexual confusion, her shadow would be looking as a Kenshiro/Jotaro Wannabie. That is my opinion
As a trans woman I have to say thank you for making this. Honestly if Naoto had been trans or Kanji had been gay truly in the final product it would not be good representation at all. Especially Naoto who was only masquerading as a boy solely because of the sexism in the police if they had pulled what Guilty Gear did with Bridget recently, I wouldn't like it. And as someone who resonated with both Naoto and Kanji, I feel most of those people miss the point and are the same people that would have made them to be the characters they were prior to being put in the TV world, especially Kanji. Like yeah sure there are some jokes they could do at their expense that I found tasteless, but their arcs are handled really well especially from the perspective of a super homophobic and transphobic Japan at the time. Also don't take Twitter seriously those are the migrants from Tumblr.
How do you feel about Bridget? I'm happy it adds to more trans representation in games, but it does bite at me to lose out on 20 year GNC rep, and i worry it validates the whole "feminine men are closet trans girls" rhetoric that goes around on Twitter.
@@brysonharrison5698 That is more or less my opinions. Like it has good intentions and I love the fact that there is more representation in Japan for trans people, I just am not a fan of the idea of the implication that all feminine men are trans women even though there is context given for Bridget's feminine looks
@@brysonharrison5698 I really don’t like it. It is kinda like Naoto’s case, only this decision is canonical for some reason. The entire point of Bridget was a biological boy, who was groomed to be a girl, wanting to be a man. That recent decision basically gives off the implication that now, the entire point of Bridget’s story is: grooming victim gives into grooming. It wasn’t even done well in Strive, with 99% of the time Bridget saying “I’m a man” to everyone who thought they were looking at a girl. In the original games Bridget was apart of, he even got angry when people assumed he was female, which doesn’t really come off as being a trans girl to me. To be honest, one of the many bad decisions in video games I hope is reversed, but probably too late now. Like: make a new trans character. Or someone else other than the grooming victim trans.
I think games like persona come around when you need them it's like the universe knows your going through something and they send you something like this to help you through it
This is why I don’t take Head Canon seriously when discussing about works. The writers never intended for Naoto to be trans. The fact that in the Golden Ending when she fully accepts herself as a female detective by comfortably dressing in Women’s clothing proves it
This is why I love this channel. Someone who is able to remove their own biases and half assed interpretation. I got tired of having to explain this to people on reddit and Twitter. This franchise is one of my largest inspirations in life and seeing people claim distorted interpretations as fact always irked me.
"I got tired of explaining stuff to *Twitter/reddit"* and that is where you made your fatal mistake. It'd be nice if people were open to discussion and other ideas but that's asking too much nowadays. Exchange of ideas is mostly dead meaning the spread of good ideas and the destruction of bad ideas is no longer possible.
A harsh truth... You can project as hard as you want towards characters like Kanji or Naoto for having similar experiences to you, but you will not get a character that's 100% you unless you create your autobiography. Even people similar to you will have different lifestyles/pasts, made different life decisions, and possess different personality traits from you, some subtle and others drastic. Yet this isn't a bad thing. It can often be those very differences that make them appealing people. Things like self-appreciation and empathy towards others stem from accepting how different people are. Frankly? I don't need to see myself in any fictional character. I live with myself every day and that's good enough for me. What similarities I find are often overshadowed by some other defining character trait that I tend to appreciate more.
In regards to Naoto's dungeon possibly being a very harsh (if not insulting) view of trangender, I would like to put forward that it's not meant to be a view of transitioning, but a metaphor using imagery from showa era tokusatusu. Just about all the kamen riders from this era were people that were abducted by the villain organization in the show and operated on to become a cyborg soldier for them. Some super sentais also incorporated this where the bad guy organization would abduct people and operate on them into monsters. Naoto is twisting herself inside out to conform to the harsh patriarchal society of her chosen field. Shadow Naoto's form is also very reminiscent of Kikaider, a robot tokusatsu hero who struggles with being caught between being a machine and humanity thanks to his conscious chip. There's a lot of tokusatsu imagery in Naoto's dungeon that doesn't tend to get brought up outside of the lab table being a (possible) metaphor for transitioning. Just... my interoperation of it all. Someone should ask Hashino about it...
There's nothing quite so frustrating as seeing the game- whatever game that may be- try and often succeed in making a powerful, moving point about something, only to have random asshats on the internet ignore that point and repurpose the dialogue for use in their Validation Crusade. It should be criminal, I swear.
This is the song that never ends.... Jokes aside, thank you for this; Persona 4 is literally a formative game for me and my childhood, and I hold its themes and these two characters close to my heart. It pains me to see people so blatantly misinterpret and/or dislike the themes even though they couldn't be more obvious. Naoto especially hits me hard, because what I most resonated with her was not her gender issues, but her issues with growing up, being afraid of change, and being afraid of other people's opinions ruining what she loved to do. That last one especially hits me hard with how I pursue my passions and hobbies that people around me may disagree with, and after 11 long years, I find myself having to learn these lessons over and over again. Naoto is such an amazing character, as is Kanji the best boi; their character arcs are so much deeper, and so much more resonant than people give credit for. And isn't that the entire theme of this game anyway? That people are much deeper than you think, and that's why you must never stop pursuing the truth?
As someone who wants to create and write stories of my own one day, this kind of stuff almost makes me nervous on how people may react to the characters in said stories. Like, authors can't predict what the fanbase might feel about a certain character, or what those fans might believe a character is. So, what happens when an author's vision for a character is starkly different to how fans interpret a character? Say, for an example: You have a character; A femme fatale, butch woman, who takes no BS from anyone and would kick your ass in a heartbeat. You have an arc in your head, where said character discovers that their supposed dead lover was actually alive, and start teasing to this fact by having her mention said dead lover without explicitly saying who said lover is. But as you're writing, you notice that the fanbase has speculated that said lover is another woman, but you already decided that is was a man introduced much earlier on that was the missing lover. What are you to do then? If you change it to go with the fan theories, that could break whatever you were planning. But if you go through with your idea, some fans might accuse you of "Queer-baiting", even if that wasn't your plan all along. It feels like a lose-lose situation This is probably an issue that a lot of storytellers in this modern age face (something that you mentioned happened to Modern day horror games, funnily enough.) As a writer, there's always a desire to please the fans of our works, but sometimes we don't know which fans we should listen to and give more of what they want. (I might be looking too hard into this but oh well, wanted to get my opinion out there)
And as someone else who's planning to write stories of my own, I can relate. Granted the stuff I have planned don't have the mystery element you talked about, I'm sure there will be religious people ragging on me for portraying demons in a positive light, heck the main character is the crown prince of the demons. If that happens, I'm not gonna care about it because its not my problem.
This is the entire snape fiasco in a nutshell where rowling writes a asshole who takes out his anger from harrys father onto him constantly and because of that people view him as a piece of shit when in her mind hes some misunderstood good guy and forgot to actually write him into being that.
Oh wow it's baisically similar to Bayonetta 3 Fans had a headcanon lesbian ship and accepted that headcanon as truth even though she was always planned to go with her male freind introduced earlier in the story.
@@revolvingworld2676 When was it ever planned that Bayonetta was going to end up with Luka. Even Hideki Kamiya (prior to Bayonetta 3) said that if she ever got romantically involved with Luka, she wouldn't take the relationship all that seriously because she would far outlive him due to being an Umbra Witch. This statement is completely contradicted in Bayonetta 3 due to her basically proclaiming Luka as the love of her life. Not to mention that Bayonetta's relationship with Luka never really came off as romantic (at least to me). It was more like master and pet rather than two people having romantic feelings for each other.
one way of explaining the p4 shadows i like is its the complete person completely unhinged and nothing negative is being pushed back. all the good things are still there just overtaken by the negative aspects along with the influence of the shadow world. the shadow is the true self in every way possible its your positives and negatives along with how the world sees you, every aspect of you combined into one and its so weird and offputting to you because we never are complete we repress the bad things about ourselves and sometimes the good things and we can never be truly aware of how others can see us.
Full offense but if someone says "Naoto is trans!/Kanji is gay!" I immediately know they did not play the game or pay attention and I have no interest in speaking with them further. Noe, I says "is" not "I see them as" or "I interrupt them as". The latter is fair, though I disagree. The former is an assertion on canon and I've been in fandom in general long enough to know anytime someone "asserts" anything on the canon, it's always bullshit. The never have proof from the source material. Just feelings. I don't do feelings in literary/media analysis.
Dude, P4G is my all-time favorite videogame in this life, and it infuriates me that people has no media literacy and only look things on face value, which is ironic if you pay attention to the story's main theme. I hope people can understand that, but I'm also dreading when this game comes to all consoles.
Haven’t finished the video, but I definitely agree that it almost feels as if people have these interpretations just to put people down. I remember seeing a tweet that basically tried to make it sound like anyone who enjoyed the plot of p4 had to be some sort of hard alt right conservative, and someone I knew QTed about how bad it was to assume someone’s political views from a dumb JRPG. Someone then replied to said quote tweet, saying that they weren’t wrong about the story being about erasure and I replied that it’s perfectly fine if they think that, as long as they don’t judge others for enjoying the game. This person then immediately replied insisting that the plot is “FUNDAMENTALLY” about the erasure of minorities, and I just felt dumbfounded. Not only that, but it just made me feel fucking awful as someone who had friends who are LGBT; making me think that I was supporting a game that was insisting that they didn’t exist. I guess what I’m trying to say is that: please don’t do this sort of shit. Because intentionally or not, you’re just putting people down for liking a fucking video game. There’s nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable or even thinking that it might give a bad message, but making people feel horrible for enjoying it is just being an ass.
If there was more logic and reason in the world stuff like that wouldn't be happening. Unfortunately humanity is a species of hate and emotionally charged responses reveal that. Hate goes in ALL directions and no matter how hard we try we can never truly erase it. Temper yourself and live your best life.
I've always felt that kanji is possibly bisexual(considering he does show interest in men) But that his arc was never all about his sexuality. It was about his personality as a whole. With sexuality just veing a part of it.
Yeah I do feel like Kanji is at least bisexual, even if he likes girls he does show interest in Naoto when he thought she was a guy. Otherwise it is true, both Kanji's and Naoto's arcs were about accepting themselves for who they are, even thought I'm all for more trans representation in games I think their stories were really nicely handled, Naoto wouldn't be the same if she decided the only way to be respected was to become a man rather than doing so as a woman.
i'm a bisexual trans man. i was in the fandom way before getting the game. Dancing All Night music came on once and sent me down a spiral of all the dancing games, and not too long after, the ports to everything were announced. it was almost the perfect storm. anyways, i saw posts about the game and its characters long before i could make up my own opinion. i saw it everywhere, "but have you _seen_ Kanji and Naoto's shadows" and "nobody on the Investigation Team is cisgender or heterosexual" and while it's fun to have headcanons and make jokes, it can really muddy the intended view of a character for anyone. when i finally got the game and started playing through it, i expected to resonate with Kanji and Naoto the most for reasons that were entirely untrue to their character arcs. and while i did end up resonating hard with Kanji after his Shadow boss fight (wanting to be accepted and be seen as normal is not a queer person-exclusive experience), it's easy for me to tell that he isn't actually attracted to men, he wants to be accepted for being a man and liking "feminine" things. going through his social link and finding out why made me love him even more. i was able to max Naoto out pretty quickly because i love using her in battle and wanted those sweet upgrades. going through her social link had me realise how...not trans she is. she's easily one of my favourite characters in the series in general. viewing these two through an entirely western lens, and even then, at surface level, strips away what makes them so great. i once saw someone that that they're badly written queer characters. and that's... why they're "badly written," they're not intended to be queer characters. finding yourself out and finally accepting yourself for who you are is a wonderful experience for anyone, and it is so freeing for a queer person like myself. but these two aren't queer, and saying so is what their arcs with accepting themselves go against.
This gotta be one of the best P4 videos I've seen. Your way to talk is always honest and respectful but not dull, which is kinda hard to get by. I hope to see what you'll do in the future.
The people who screech about “Kanji is gay and Naoto is trans” kinda prove the points that their stories establish in the game. The societal pressures of people who distill their personal experiences, interests, and hardships into a single mold that they don’t even fit into to begin with are exactly what made them feel so outcasted and confused.
To be fair most people who would attack you for this are tumblr refugees on Twitter who were the same group of people who weren’t above harassing a person to nearly committing suicide because that person drew a character in a way they didn’t like in a fan art!
While this is headcanon, I like to believe that through his interactions with Naoto before and after her gender is revealed that Kanji is at least some level of bisexual, and while it's not the main focus of his arc with it being to accept himself and his hobbies, it's still a personal belief that Kanji swings either way.
As someone who deeply relates to Naoto's arc, I must say I really like your nuanced take on her as a character. It's fine if someone wants to headcanon her as trans, but calling someone transphobic because they don't share your opinion is taking it way too far.
I hate the discourse around Kanji and Naoto because their gender/sexuality isn’t the big thing about them. The crux of their character is that they’re forcing themselves into a box or putting up walls to cover up the fact that they’re outside the status quo. And the reason they’re struggling with themselves is because they’re putting themselves into a different box instead of breaking apart the box itself. Their character arc ends with the liberation of living authentically, even if they change from how they originally thought. And I fully understand the concern with a character like Kanji and Naoto saying “I’m not ACTUALLY lgbt I just don’t align with gender norms” (mostly because actual homophobes/transphobes use this to delegitimize people. I should know, if I had a nickel for every “but how do you KNOW you’re gay if you’ve never kissed a girl” I’d be one rich bastard) but insisting Kanji or Naoto are something they’re not take so much away from legitimate nuance in their arcs
I relate a lot to Kanji, my dad always taught me to be tough, physically and mentally. But I always felt that it was really confusing to me, I like the scent of flowers and stuffed toys, but I'm always told that that stuff is girly. I still don't know who I am, but I learned how to become stronger in different ways, I still don't quite know.
Mad respect for you and Cartoonshi talking about mis characterization in 4 and actually pointed out details about how Midnight Channel really works. Given this video (and your content in general), you remind me of my friend TobiZenko, who talk about mis characterization and fan discourse within the Dragonball series as a whole. 😶
Very informative video, it was nice to have a refresher on various parts of the game and it was neat to examine stuff I hadn't given much thought before (such as the Shadows' nature on the midnight channel).
As a trans woman, I've always related to Naoto because she was in a situation where she was living as a man to be taken seriously, despite it not being what she actually wanted. She was playing a role to be what society wanted her to be instead of just being who she is, which is exactly the situation I was in before I started transitioning. In regards to Kanji, I personally interpret/headcanon him as having sexual orientation-themed OCD. His interests being considered feminine and that femininity being linked by others to homosexuality caused him to question himself. His shadow could be construed as a manifestation of intrusive thoughts that he was running away from. It took accepting his shadow for him to get better, which could be an analogue for acknowledging intrusive thoughts, but understanding that they don't define him as a person and not letting them impact him to the same degree that they had before. Hell, the process of confronting your shadow could even be seen as a metaphor for exposure and response prevention therapy. EDIT: Also, Bridget isn't trans. ArcSys just decided to pander to certain types of people and in turn changed a beloved GNC character to a transphobic caricature.
This has bothered me for ages man. Naoto and Kanji are reallly good examples of misunderstanding characters and the difference between American and Japanese Culture.
Man Kojima truely is a genius, Metal Gear Solid just doesn't age, that shit is timeless or maybe we as Human are simply taking 2 steps back per every step forward always keeping us where we just were
History repeats its self. As you get old you start seeing it. When your young you laugh at the ranting of that Crazy Old Man. Live long enough and you become him, as I have.
It is a truth that progress is ironically a zero-sum game. Because there are far too many comfortable people and people willing to argue rather than to make progress until a breaking point, , and people willing to take advantage of that in every single way possible, progress is usually just trading advantages elsewhere to desperately gain others only to drop them when they no longer fit your needs.
Something about this reminds me of a tale and old boss of mine told me, although I forget some of the details. A man has two sons. The one that was his favorite was the football player, the manly one. The one that was everything he wanted in his son; the image of strength, virility and what all women would want. His unfavorite son, meanwhile... was on the cheerleading squad. He thought of him as a sissy. The one who would never give him grandchildren, the one one who was a disappointment. However at some point two facts came out, one not too long after the other. The son he was proud about, the football player... was gay. And the son he was sure was a sissy... had knocked up three girls. As it turns out the first son played football... because that's where all the guys were. And the son on the cheerleading team was there... because that's where all the girls are. Not sure on how true it was, but it does make you think a bit, huh?
“Young James Dean, some say he looks just like his father But he could never love somebody else’s daughter Football team, loved more than just the game So he vowed to be his husband at the altar”
Yeah, that comment about Twitter being the real world midnight channel seems pretty apt (especially when you consider the shit that occurred with the whole “kick Vic” movement way back when and the shit around Chuggaconroy back in January this year. I honestly don’t know whether or not the stuff surrounding them is true, but the problem is once things got out, everybody hounded them and treated them like a demon instead of a PERSON who made a bad choice and has the potential to learn from it.)
It should be noted that naoto gets a spin off series where she grows her hair out and becomes a detective despite being a woman and young. It’s a great series as she gets a lot of action and showcasing her being proud of herself and her robot partner she gets. (A guy who protects her but trusts her on her own)
@@juanito46101 Thanks, I'll have to check it out. I knew Persona was a spinoff itself, but I didn't know it had spinoffs other than the fighting games and Persona 5 Strikers which is also kind of a sequel to 5.
I feel the need to point out that Detective Naoto is considered not canon by the wider community. I have not read it myself, but based on what i’ve heard, it contradicts various aspects of game canon. Also, there are more spin-off games besides Arena and Strikers. The three Dancing games and the Q duology exist (P4 Dancing is an actual, canonical sequel story to P4 while P3D and P5D take place in the character’s dreams, set up by the Velvet Residents; and the Q games are crossovers between the modern Persona games, taking place in pocket dimensions that allow for the casts to be pulled from specific points in their story, such as the P4 gang being pulled from around the culture festival)
@@dededeletethis9940 I'd still want to check out Detective Naoto because it sounds neat. Canon seems to be somewhat loose in the Persona series anyway, what with how Personas are acquired, to how they are summoned being changed regularly for starters. I forgot about the dancing games, but I do remember seeing one now that you mention it.
I still think back to that Extra Credits vid on this and how they just claimed Kanji was gay and Naoto was trans, but didn’t even go into why for the latter.
Honestly, watching this video makes me want to play Persona 4 Golden again. Can't wait for it to be released on the switch. Personally, I never saw the "Naoto is Trans" argument when I played the game. I just saw a woman struggling to establish herself in a male dominant workplace and being underestimated because she was still a child. When I was playing her side of the story, it reminded me a lot of Disney's Mulan. As for Kanji, he's my second favourite character in the game (Chie being number 1). Hearing how he had such a rough upbringing due to him being judged and ridiculed because he wasn't traditionally masculine was upsetting, but him overcoming his insecurities and embracing himself for who he is thanks to finding friends who accept him always warmed my heart. Persona 4 is a great game, I like Persona 5 Royal more, but that doesn't discredit Persona 4 Golden from being good. PS: I always saw Kanji as Bisexual. He not only shows interest in girls when he saw Chie and Yukiko in swimsuits and still having a crush on Naoto even after learning she was a woman, but in Persona 4 Arena, he makes a comment about staring at Akihiko's physique. He says, "Ooh, check out those muscles. Even a man like me can't help but stare...". But that's just me, Kanji is a great character regardless.
Love kanji as a character, yes his story isn’t connected to sexuality, but that does not mean he can’t be bi As a side note I’ve always taken the quote from him after accepting his shadow self in the steam house as what i see him as “It ain’t a matter of guys or chicks, I’m just scared shitless of being alone..”
- "I am a Shadow... the true self". So pay attention to what Yosuke says about Kanji's Shadow. "This isn't really him. It's just his emotions going haywire". - What you say about the Shadows in the TV also taking on aspects of how the public sees that person. Yes exactly. And to add to what you said about Namatame, this is literally said verbatim by Izanami. She says what shows up on the midnight channel is a reflection of how the public views that person. Was pretty much my exact argument when my cousin and me were debating whether or not Kanji is gay. I bring up Rise's Shadow and how the stripper thing is a part of what the public thinks about her, and not an actual part of her personality. Though I do think Kanji is still somewhat sexually confused as unlike Rise it still comes again and again afterwards. But to call him gay outright, completely misses the point. Part of the problem I feel like and this is true from BOTH sides in my opinion, straight and gay. And I say this growing up as a straight male who was frequently accused of being gay. Is that as a straight male, to be perceived as straight you have to "act" 100% "straight" at all times. If you ever do something as superficial as even sing a female verse in a song, or even touch another guy's hand for half of a second everyone accuses you of being gay. Even the gay guys do it, which is just the same stereotypical bullshit that they accused the straight guys of putting them through. Ultimately I feel like literally everyone deals with something like Kanji at some point. - Ooh. I actually didn't know about that interview with Troy Baker with him saying Kanji was "clearly gay". Yeah, I can see how people would take that as gospel, though I personally have never seen that argument used by anyone. But feel like he completely missed the point as well. I also just can't take that the way he does with everything about being accepted in Kanji's social link. - Ameno-sagiri: "Humans fail to see things as they truly are. They see only what they wish". Lmao! Going through all of this. I think I may have realized why Persona 4 is still my favorite and why frankly I didn't like Persona 5 as much. Persona 5's story and themes just didn't resonate with me, or come to me at a time in my life where I was actively dealing with those themes (mid teens). At least not in the way that Persona 4 did. Not even close. In fact I think I might actually disagree with many of P5's themes than agree with them. Or at the least I'm indifferent. I mean I kinda always knew really. I always had some idea, and of course there could be something that I'm overlooking. I guess what I'm trying to say is that revisiting Persona 4's themes put it into perspective.
Wait, is THAT why there've been so many P4 videos lately? Twitter got assmad? Twitter ALWAYS gets assmad. It's all they know how to do. Edit: Bridget isn't trans.
That's not all unfortunately. Thanks to a Twitch streamer I also found out that Yukiko and Chie are lesbians who are in love with each other. Why ? Because they're very good friends and they care for each other so of course, they might as well be lesbians. I really thought Kanji and Naoto were the only victims of Twitter's overinterpretation but I guess these morons can find LGBTQ undertones everywhere if they look hard enough.
Content of the video is good, great way to point out the difference, not only between headcanons and actual lines, but also between the characters and their shadow selves.
I adore Kanji for much the same reason. I saw so much of myself through him. Still do. You can be a man, identify as a man, be heterosexual AND have noticeable feminine traits & interests. Masculinity & femininity are not mutually exclusive. In fact if they where we'd be highly unstable. I know its highly controversial to say, but frankly the modern way of handling this by making up a bunch of different identities just reinforces the idea that men & women can only be one way. To be another way is to be something different, something unique, something other. People jumping on Kanji being gay & Naoto being trans is a perfect example of that. They aren't stereotypes of cis het people so they MUST be stereotypes of LGBT. What does it mean to be a real man? I don't think anyone can accurately answer that. I believe its something you feel, not something that can be comfortably defined. The insecurity often coming from the idea of what others might think of you. Again based on restrictive tropes of what people are & can be.
Naoto Shirogane and Kanji Tatsumi… As a person in their mid twenties still trying to understand everything about their identity, I can relate to them on a lot of levels. But I recognize too that no matter how much I wish, I can’t change the story already there. If there is media later that has them discover and come to terms with themselves as some kind of non-straight or non-binary individual that’s fine I just don’t want to force that label on them. I can have au or fics or whatever, but I’m not gonna force that on others because it’s just not who they truly are in the narrative, as it is today for them. “…unless Twitter is ripped from the roots.” I know this was written well before whats happening now, but if nothing else there’s signs of it happening and i’m all for seeing how far that goes.
Hey Mangakamen! I saw your video on p4. Never played the series but have watched a lot of it on a lets play channel. I enjoy hearing other peoples take on different kinds of media series and explaing in depth of what things are represented and why they're special. I think it gives a level of clarity and understanding on things I would never notice on my own, either having no interest on some series or never looking deep into what the writers are trying to say. So it brings a whole new thing to appreciate when a video like this one is brought up.
I always get so upset when people say "P4 is transfobic bc Naoto's storyline....", thats bc I see a lot of myself in Naoto, I like being a girl but a lot of my interests are male oriented, even when I as questioning my sexuality I kept telling myself that it was way easier for me to be a man ( now seeing myself as Bi, actually would be the same as me being bi as a women =v )!! I love Naoto and be able to see her as a women finding place for herself as a female detective is incredibly and so powerful!!!! This game is not perfect but P4 has a special place in my heart for what it try to do and the stories it try to tell.
This reminds me a lot of what happened with Chihiro in Danganronpa trigger happy havoc. I personally see a lot of parallels to Naoto in Chihiro, and in a way you can say the same thing with Kanji and Mondo, but that’s a tangential point. The thing is, the whole “Chihiro is trans and if you disagree your transphobic” argument that’s been run into the ground for the past decade or so, is in my honest opinion a frankly insulting and regressive argument, as you put succinctly Kamen. “Oh you’re a man who struggles with being accepted for his less masculine hobbies and how you view your identity in a society that has outdated standards and puts you into a box? You must be gay.” “Oh you’re a woman who faces gender inequality at work and adults calling you a child because of your age? Well no problem, all you need to do is transition into being a man so you can escape their sexist comments even if you have to permanently change yourself to fit their insatiable mold.” It’s basically the same with Chihiro, he used his female mask to hide his insecurities in being a “weak” guy but in reality that insecurity continued to fester as he got older, and when put into a death game where it’s every person for themselves, he wanted to grow stronger and enlist the help of someone he thought was strong and manly, which I won’t spoil what happens for those who haven’t played the game.But if you know you know. I remember this one crazy UA-camr who went on a tirade, defending their headcanon about Chihiro being trans and would actively insult people who provided evidence against their delusional claims and frankly it’s draining and exhausting to always be dealing with people like that, especially when the games become more mainstream, that’s where it gets even more toxic. My point is, it’s nice to have headcanons, but treating them as absolute truth when it’s not canon, just continues to prove what Anemo Sagittarius said is true. As a bisexual man, I’d love for future games to have positive queer representation, but I feel that we won’t see the end of these types of Twitter people who insist everything they think is true and ironically they prove that Persona 4 is even more of a classic as time goes on with his progressive the game was for its time
I remember someone putting forth a respectful argument about how Chihiro's story was about Japan's rigid gender roles instead of transexuality. Now get this; not only was this person Japanese, they were actually transexual themself so if anyone had an informed opinion on the subject it would be them. But no; the keyboard activists decried them as transphobic and hurled all manner of abuse their way. These people don't actually care about transsexuals, or whoever they claim to be fighting for; they just want to make themselves look like heroes by making everyone else a villain.
@@siobhannoble8545 Exactly my sentiment, they want to slay a dragon that doesn't even exist. Also circling back to what I said, if we played devil's advocate and said Chihiro was trans, wouldn't that kind of ruin the mystery and invalidate what he went through, plus if he were trans he wouldn't have had a problem exercising with Hina and Sakura, so yeah. I too also have a friend who is transgender, but people who aren't trans come out of the woodwork and say that he's being transphobic when he's just stating facts and giving his personal experience on things, it's like for people who want to champion trans people, they have no problem with also talking down to them the moment they don't preach their narrative.
Persona 4’s discourse and drama is in now in the state of “The Endless Now”, cause no matter when this drama and discourse appeared or when it reappears in modern era, it will always be about the drama of Kanji and Naoto and nothing else, and it has been like this for 14 years. (and for those persona fans who had been that long into the series then me who had to dealt with this Crap for the past 14 years, y’all have my condolences.) I really wish this whole stupid drama would just fade away in the future, but seeing how even the villains (Ameno-Sagiri and Izanami) were proven right not only in the games, but even in the FREAKIN REAL WORLD it just means how doomed we are as a species and how that kind of hope is just wishful thinking. (Edited) P.S great video man, I know you did kinda dipped into this kind of danger zone before but I really didn’t expected you to fully dive into it. Keep doing this kind of work, mate.
Glad someone said it, though I guess many people have been saying it for years. People will pick and choose whatever details they see fit to illustrate their point despite there being other details that can easily contradict that point. It's been a long time since I played Persona 4, and I never thought about how similar the concept of the midnight channel is to the thoughts of Twitter and the rest of the internet. People will push whatever opinion they want to make themselves feel happy and justified, the only difference is that people are so sensitive that they get upset whenever those ideas and opinions get challenged. Also, MangaKamen, my man, I know you are primarily an anime and video game story based media guy, but with all your wrestling references, I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on wrestling storytelling over the years. I know wrestling stories and characters are not the best all the time, but between AEW, WWE, NJPW and even smaller programs like the short but very entertaining Lucha Underground had a lot going for it in terms of how characters are worked. As simple as it is when seen in regular storytelling, it's crazy how effective it is when you have characters in wrestling that have a lot of detail put into them.
28:27 In essence, by not accepting the truth that the game presents, they actively engage with the antithesis of the game. The thesis being learning to accept oneself and facing the truth.
I had that problem growing up in Georgia in the 90s. I loved a lot of stuff that was "made" for boys as a little girl but everyone kept saying "You shouldn't like that you're a girl!" I also liked anime but it wasn't well-known yet so I really had no one to talk to about it. And As a Black girl a lot of what I liked was considered "White" So I had a lot of insecurities about the things I loved. Even now guys give me the wide-eyed look every time I mention gaming or anime like I was an alien. Slowly I had to realize that I needed to accept myself first regardless of how others thought of me. That what made me stand out was great not a burden. I love what I love. If others shared my interests that's great but if not that's fine too. I am me and that's great.
i can relate with you. i really liked boyish things even as a child. yeah i played with girly toys too but i liked masculine things more. i really liked anime as well! in my place playing games and watching anime is viewed as things only guys do so i get comments why i like this and that (just the other day too i got a comment why i liked a particular franchise that was meant for guys) im glad that you accept yourself now. i wish you have a good day!
People like on Twitter are pretty much proving Ameno-sagiri right. These people are so desperate for representation that they become too hyperfocused for any clues or hint. Representation is a great thing to have but it's not a good thing to become obsessed over. If you have a character you are close to like how I feel representated by Donnie from Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle as a fellow Autism, then thats great. Just let's not have it become our entire personality.
I think you do the main thing that most people on twitter fail to do: Give room for other interpretation and offer some benefit of the doubt when they make it. The twitter mob will destroy anyone who focuses too much on the LGBT-coding scenes of Naoto and Kanji for various reasons (normally a combination of current-day values and some values dissonance with a teaspoon of the person playing is probably LGBT in some form) because they deem it 'incorrect' and 'missing the point' and are a hypocrite at worst or very ironic at best. But due to this, it's essentially creating two groups that hate each other, instead of one big connected group that stems from something like 'You're missing the MAIN point but it's good you picked up on this aspect too'. Regardless of which side anyone on twitter defends, you shouldn't be willing to die for it, and of course no one should be jumping to assumptions on either side. The 'LGBT Coded' believes seem to jump to conclusions about kanji and naoto before even getting to their dungeons, but their detractors are just as guilty of jumping to conclusions about the concept of 'not knowing vs not listening' as this group all seem to just assume the former group is guilty of the second option every single time.
Or maybe they really do believe the things they are saying while at the same time not understadning and thus kinda proving Persona's 4 point about how Sometimes People don't try to understand others.
good video kamen! honestly, what more can i say other that i agree 100% with all your points. especially the part with Kanji. To me, he is a real man regardless of what he likes, he can stumble, but the bravery he shows is what i like.
I don't know why people think Naoto is trans when her whole personal problem is not her identity but the insecurities of not being able to continue with the family heritage due to BEING a woman that is going to be underestimated due to sexism, and that's why she PRETENDS to be a male while also trying to look more adult, but then at the end she stops pretending and decides that she's gonna become a great detective without hiding who she is.
Fun fact I sorta relate to Kanji in a different way. Not cause "gay man" But... the fear of not being able to be myself. Even to this day I do that. But... in my past... I avoided being shown as my true self too and got stamped as "Possible Gay" I am not joking. I just have extreme emotions as someone with autism and love being kind, hugging and showing people appriciation but it always got seen as overbearing... I tended to cry alot and be too much in touch with my emotions, I also romantized having a girlfriend/wife being this one thing I should do right since too many do it wrong. I avoided experimenting... and soon I was told to think how others percieve me and how they see my emotional state... And.. yea... I still hold value that to some degree... you need to see things from other people's perspective.. but your own perspective matters just as much. Now for the being perceieved gay.. since i was alot in my own world.. emotional... unconnected and showing my emotions strongly to boys and girls... wich apperently got me to hang with alot of girls back in my younger days as friends.. I got labeled as possible gay... not just by my classmates... but by my own parents. Now my mom thought I was closeted and actually said... "It's okay to be gay..." When she said that.. I had a laughing fit... she kept triyng to say "It's okay to be gay.." and I am like "I am not, I understnad you accept it, but I am not mom" But slowly... insted of wondering "If I was gay" I knew I wasn't gay... Inside my mind however... it started to dawn on me how my emotional self comes OFF as gay... or feminine. With the internet people who didn't know me thought I was female... I was flirted by closeted gay people of my age as well... Heck one guy actually came out of the closet to me and that was awkward, cause he said he loved me and wanted to date me... So.. my "I want to date the right girl for me and find someone with the same gaming hobbies as me and passions." Became me being labeled as "GAY" and that's when i did something I regretted. Insted of being true to myself... I decided to let girls into my life.. since some girls had a fancy for me. Normally i would avoid it cause: "I am not sure if they like a gamer like me.." and "If I was a terrible guy.." Heck... I somehow was able to win the heart of the "Rich girl" at school and I was like: "Wait this guy likes her alot, I think she's neat.." and bam I made them a couple.. good on me. side tracking there... But yea I had a low image of myself and the gay image ontop of it.. didn't help me.. so I started letting girls in to atleast WIPE this gay image from my list. THIS WAS A MISTAKE. Not only was I unable to hold a relationship and build it up as people matchmaked me with girls (Since I did it for one guy as said earlier) I decided to let girls date me... and most of these relations broke off in time. Even online ones... I tried so hard to make it work and make others work. So I let other people's happiness go 1st and that's another issue for me.. but I am happily married with my current wife so... my girl issues did end. Also with girls dating me I don't mean I went on a date with them.. I meant I allowed them to flirt and hang with me and talk with em. But we couldn't find common grounds to start a basis... and online I could but it fell appart due to various other reasons. (Mostly since younger girls were interrested in me alot and it became creepy to me when I hit the age of 18...) So now that I am married with my wife happily, gaming together, writing together, living together and such. I am now a happy man with some underlying issues i still work with to this day. But that's how I can relate to Kanji's plea.. as well as Yukiko'ss. This image being put onto your face while it ain't there... trying to do your best for others but being seen as something else.
The best video/piece on this topic i have seen and as a fan of the franchise since 2013 (with Persona 4) I'm grateful this exists, especially with someone in the LGBT community at the forefront. In discourse and arguments online where Kanji and Naoto are mentioned, i sincerely hope this video is linked.
Fantastic Video. Every so often when this stupid argument comes up in social media, I always get frustrated that people either did not play the game or let their interpretation get in the way of what actually happens in the game. Thank you for this piece, and helping me defend one of my favorite video games of all time. Cheers, earned a new fan.
I personally think that the shadows you fight are warped versions of their persona's. People view them a certain way and it results in their persona's becoming monsters. Then when they accept themselves, it sheds off the public perception and becomes their true persona.
I've never made a super thanks, or whatever this counts as before, but this video is so good and on point. I appreciate it so much, and seeing the Twitter discourse kinda made me worried about the long term reputation of this game. Thank you again.
What interesting about Kanji that not may people like to talk about is that a lot of his Bullying came from Girls when he was younger. You see a lot of Women on Social Media trying to tell Men we need to "open up" and be "more sensitive", but at the same time will laugh at us for doing so, thus are the reason why we dont. A LOT of my Bullying as a Kid was from Girls and lead to me have a very bad self image of myself. I never even had my first Date until I was in my 20's, and it was the Girl who asked me out. My Wife is the only Woman I ever asked out and that was only because I was told she liked me. My point in bringing this up is because I find it sad that the Focus on Kanji devolved into it just being about his Sexuality, and while it could be a talking point, it not all their is to discuss about his Character, nor the only way one can relate to him. Just another Victim of the Wests Culture Wars and Identity Politics.
I remember there was articles, videos and even WatchMojo did heavily focus on Kanji being Gay. And I believed it back then. Seriously I hate when people take things out of Context. Context do Matters. But sadly it just Media Manipulation. Like the TV from Persona 4. I remember one the bully kid from Ned's Declassified also have a hobby of as sewing and he hide it too. I think he open ups and admit his love for sewing In the show, it's been awhile since I saw Ned's declassified. Kamen when you said about fears of being Reject and closing everyone out, it Reminds me of Shinji from Evangelion heck the show have Kaworu Nagisa. I didn't see the reboot movies, the movies was like a time loop or something? I remember Casca from Berserk has it similar to Naoto. Casca also face the same issues for being a Woman in the Battlefield of Men. She even told Guts "I didn't ask to be a woman". And Casca has an arc of her being capable Warrior, Leader to save Griffith and as a Woman. She got that after her spending time with Guts.
As a reminder, this video isn't to attack anyone or label anyone as a terrible person, I don't do that in the video, but I know bad actors will take it that way. I don't condone any attacks on people, I can disagree with you, but I don't want anyone to get on the case of others over an interpretation of media - Even if it's an interpretation I view as dishonest, that doesn't give you a green light to attack others.
If you disagree with me on any interpretations that I have, or believe that the characters are whatever you view them as, that's fine. I am merely expressing my interpretation and how I view some critiques to be made in bad faith.
I try not to do things in bad faith myself, but like I said in the video, I don't view my analysis as the be all end all of this discussion.
Just be kind to people, enjoy media, and if you're gonna analyze something, please, just be open minded that you could be wrong.
Of course I’m going to disagree. I mean, Persona 4? How many personalities do you need?
This is exactly why you may be whatever orientation you are, but you'll never be accepted as part of "the community" In your mind people are allowed to disagree with you. There's nothing wrong with that in any sense aside from the view of authoritarian dogma, but unfortunately "the community" holds that above all else. You're better off just being yourself and accepting yourself for what you are than wanting any sort of in or acceptance from a group of authoritarians. You aren't something those sort of people have yet to deem worthy of even defining with a single letter. You're a person. .-.
Before anyone says anything in response to that let it be known not necessarily for you angrily commenting, but for actually sane people I have nothing against any individual person that community currently claims to represent. I just oppose the mainstream movement. I've never in all my years seen anyone more hate filled or bigoted towards anyone that community claims to represent than the movement itself if anyone of those orientations thinks even slightly differently from what the movement approves of.
I'd compare the movement to PETA, but even PETA has treated animals they slaughtered to "save" them more humanely than people I've been friends with that had an opinion contrary to what the movement approves of. .-.
To be fair most people who would attack you for this are tumblr refugees on Twitter who were the same group of people who weren’t above harassing a person to nearly committing suicide because that person drew a character in a way they didn’t like in a fan art!
Ok, you had md until you brought on that bundle of sticks towards the end. Also, Kamen, try not to be too open minded, otherwise your brain might fall out of your head.
"Humans fail to see things as they truly are. They choose to see only what they wish." Wow, that line of dialogue does roast most of Twitter. 😂
I just realized now. If that's the case... Does Twitter have a huge fog? :3
@@felipedestickman Perhaps...
@@felipedestickman Twitter really represent a HUGE fog
@@felipedestickman it’s certainly a blue fog
Persona 4 is actually all about social media, gossip and how easy it is for the truth to be lost in it, when you really look at it. Some of the lyrics in the opening theme:
"We are living our lives
Abound with so much information
Come on, let go of the remote; don't you know you're letting all the junk flood in?
I try to stop the flow, double-clicking on the go, but it's no use; hey, I'm being consumed
Loading loading loading, quickly reaching maximum capacity
Warning warning warning, gonna short-circuit my identity (ahhhhh)"
It's amazing how ahead of its time that was, it could be because mobile phones caught on in Japan much earlier than they did in the west.
Persona 4 discourse kinda shines a light on how media analysis/literacy has progressed (or more stagnated) as the years go by. The stories behind Naoto and Kanji isn't simply, "Oh, Naoto's trans actually" or "Kanji's totally gay." It's about them learning not to be held down by societal stereotypes about them.
Naoto was embarrassed to be a girl not because of gender dysphoria, but because she believed that being part of the police/detective department meant that she'd be looked down upon because she was a girl. Kanji's deal is that he's afraid of showing his softer, more sensitive side because he wants to be viewed as tough, masculine guy, who isn't tied to "weaknesses" like looking or acting feminine.
It's why the story's themes hit as hard as it does and is also why the whole "character is x-coded" stuff annoys me because it's just a slightly prettier way of putting people into stereotypes.
For real though: It's hilariously ironic how in the quest for more Representation, we've seemingly, paradoxically, doubled down on gender stereotypes that only served to distress people when they didn't "fit in".
Female character has masculine interests or a Butch personality? Must be a Lesbian/Trans Man: Girls aren't like that, after all.
Male character has a love for softer things or dressing up? Must be Gay/Trans Woman: Boys have to be tough and strong, after all.
Seriously, whatever happened to the "Don't let gender stereotypes hold you back from being yourself" messaging?
I couldn’t have said it any better. Thank you.
Media discourse in general has been ruined by kneejerk-reactionary BSery from both sides of the political spectrum (like Sergio's clearly blaming the other side for the problems with the world showing a clear lack of any capacity for nuance for example while ignoring the fact that both sides are equally guilty of ruining discourse and analysis) so it's little wonder media analysis has likewise degraded to face-value BSery.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo Last Jedi was mediocre, not terrible or great, there was nothing terrible or great about Han Solo dying or Rey being a jedi and the main protaganist, she's boring but not any more or less of a "mary sue" than Anakin or Luke.
The thing that kinda muddies it are the shadows though. Like I know what they're supposed to mean, but for a person first playing the game seeing Kanji's shadow say "I am a shadow, the true self" followed by "I like men" it's VERY easy to take it at face value.
I think framing it as "people say this character is queer-coded because he likes feminine things" is also very disingenuous. Let's be real, if Kanji had just showed up and said he likes sewing (no shadows involved) his sexuality would not be a controversial topic at all. I don't think people are just playing into stereotypes when they say he's queer-coded.
As a Gay male myself, I deeply resonated with Kanji and his struggles cause it felt it was directly taken from my life, throughout my childhood and teens I had to deal with a lot of negative stuff, I was different from most kids, I didn't like football or sports for that matter, I wouldn't roughouse or play with car models etc, I was more of a soft kid who would enjoy spending time indoors doing more arts 'n crafting stuff like drawing and enjoying media and later easily most of my life shifted into online stuff, and also living in a small town that feels trapped in the past, there was a lot of negative stuff thrown my way, the other kids would call me names and even bully me, even my own dad would act like a piece of shit with me cause I wasn't the "manly man" son he wanted and constantly try to force his believes onto me, like forcing me into a soccer team or.. gambling, and later in Highschool when I started to come out I was freakin out and burrying myself in layers of denial cause I was groomed into believing that gay males are... "wrong" and if I was one, who knew what could happen to me, those were really dark days, I was messed up, I would even Google shit like "how to stop being gay", but as time went on, thanks to getting to know other gay folks and pieces of media like P4, I started to climb my way out of the dark hole I dug for myself, and eventually accepted the fact that I'm gay, and that I wasn't less of a person or that I deserved to be punished, I learned to block out all the insults and stereotypes and just not give a damn about what others might think of me.
And honestly now that Persona, a piece of media I deeply love on a personal level, has entered mainstream thanks to P5 and ports, a lot of people who play it only see the surface level, saying stuff like "Kanji's totally gay" or "Naoto's definetely trans" and getting pissed over the fact that the game or the fandom at large won't acknowledge or try to "contradict it" pisses me off, granted on my first playthrough I also thought Kanji was gay 'cause of how much of myself I saw on him, but that was me projecting hard, on later playthroughs I understood Kanji's story and struggles and that they don't really are about him being gay, but I didn't care, Kanji still resonated a lot with me, didn't matter if he was gay or not at the end of the day, cause what he went through and his resolution to push forward and improve himself are still real. Ironic how these people are literally part of the problem of forcing social labels onto people based on surface level impression, that made Kanji and Naoto feel forced to hide their insecurities and true self and put on a mask to be able to be "accepted".
Keep in mind that the people insisting that Kanji is gay/bi and Naoto is trans are dealing with the same frustrations as yourself. It's very understandable for them to interpret those two as being queer, and it detracts nothing whatsoever from their stories if they're queer. So imagine how they feel when Atlus and the fandom is so adamant that they aren't.
But, unlike the other side of this coin, there's a potential explanation behind their opponent's intentions. Because, let's be honest here, there's still a small subset of gamers who will throw an entitled reactionary hissy-fit at any mention whatsoever of including a gay character. They treat any kind of character diversity as a personal attack against them, like a horde of woke leftists is coming to kick down their doors and turn the casts of all their favorite games into the Burger King Kids Club.
I'm definitely not saying that everyone arguing otherwise is bigoted. There's multiple reasons to hold such an interpretation. But it's still a substantial force behind the pushback, and that can't be ignored.
Edit: The replies to this comment have only proven my point. Literally nothing but ad-homonym attacks, nonsensical assumptions, and the most poorly-constructed strawman arguments I've ever seen. If a dozen+ people can't articulate why they're THIS vehemently opposed to the existence of a queer character, then... well, what other explanation is there?
People think Naoto is trans? Even though they probably played the game?.. What the actual fuck? If naoto decided to become trans that'd be toxic as hell! Her problem wasn't gender dysphoria, it was societal preasure! If they played the game, they should know that!
@@jimmy2dumb105 Yeah, unlike Kanji who's conflict wasn't about him being gay/bi, he could still be either since it's open to interpretation and left unanswered cause again, that wasn't the source of his struggles, Naoto downright tell us that she's not "a male inside a female body" or something between those lines, the reason she pretended to be male for a time it was cause the Detective workforce like many jobs, it's centered around males and if she was still presenting as female, everyone would treat her as even lesser of a contributor, they already did cause she was a child but it could've be even worse of they knew she was female, if she decided to transition just to fit the view of that others would be indeed very toxic and give the message that females can only hope to achieve their goals and overcome their obstacles that come from how misogynistic society can be by just becoming a man and play along.
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo - I hope you're not conflating queer people wanting a character that shares this *one* trait, as them wanting the character to be "identical".
Queer people are already able to relate to an entire cast of non-queer characters. We've been doing it our entire lives. So why are some non-queer people so utterly petulant about the idea of trying to relate to a cast with *one* queer character?
Dang it’s almost like people can relate to fictional characters who don’t have the same sexuality as them, which is something Twitter should learn. Glad you learned that man. Sometimes we project what we wanna see onto other people or fictional characters, instead of seeing what is really there, kinda like the Midnight Channel.
There are 3 reasons why Kanji is my favorite:
1. Kanji's emotional arc resonates with me.
2. Speedo means you're comfortable with your body.
3. Give 'em the CHAIR!
4. He is voiced by Troy Baker (aka Pain from Naruto)
Also don't forget Yu's advice to him.
"YOU'RE A MAN. LET EM DANGLE!"
While I know Twitter won’t like this one, you’ve likely survived worse. Would be amused if someone tried to do a rebuttal.
To be fair most of those people on Twitter are tumblr refugees who were the same people who bully a person to nearly committing suicide because they drew a character in a fan adt a way they didn’t like!
Funny story, you see two hours after this video was released the guy who was gaslighting people that “atlus did a shitting writing job with Persona 4 and on its characters” who’s also the one claiming that he’s better then us because he “has an English degree” made a reaction video about Kamen’s new persona 4 video and they probably were trying to correct him on his video (I dunno, I didn’t watch that guy’s video and I’m not planning in doing so, this is just my assumption. Also don’t go after him, it would be a waste of time) so yeah you were totally right.
@@The_GhostWind I watched bits of it, he was literally raging lol. He made it unlisted just not to get dislikes or corrected… Thankfully, he lost alot of attraction since the tweet and everything seems to be getting back as it was in the community. Just ignore him
@@The_GhostWind Not surprised. Narcissists NEVER like to admit that they were wrong about something.
I sometimes get confused whenever people debate about Kanji's sexuality.
He is into girls as revealed from his feeling towards Naoto, but before this Kanji still had those same feelings before he knew her actual gender.
But one thing I keep track is how he never showed these feelings to anyone other than Naoto.
So as a fun harmless joke I like to say he's NaotoSexual.
Ive always said that joke myself because for Kanji it was love at first sight when he saw naoto
I mean I wouldn't say he's NEVER showed those feelings towards anyone else. He did have a nosebleed at Chie and Yukiko in swim suits.
EXACTLY
@@dbfan199 ...Wasn't that because Chie kicked him in the face the night prior?
@@ShasOKais117 Unlikely since he was just fine until they where in swimsuits. no nosebleed or anything.
The most terrible thing that can happen to a Persona 4 fan is seing the game trending on Twitter.
Thankfully, it’s over. I hope lol
The most terrible thing that can happen to any fan of a controversial or misinterpretable piece of media is to trend on Twitter. For a trend to be positive on Twitter, it has to be in utter agreement, or a meme that is innocuous, or the topic itself has to be so mundane and universal no one can generate controversy over it.
@@iantaakalla8180
Even if the trend is positive, it's worrisome. As it brings attention to the product for the twitter vultures to pick it apart, nitpick and cancel it.
Me currently playing through the game and it trending on Twitter again: 👀💧
The thing I love most about media is empathizing with characters who share a core aspect I can relate to even if not the same experiences. Or admiring those I wish I could be more like.
Kanji and Naoto are kinda a mix. My personality is like neither of them. My experiences aren’t exactly the same as them. But I do connect with them. That fear of rejection and wanting to be relied on is something that strikes deeply with me. And I admire both of them greatly.
I don’t need a character to be exactly like me to feel a connection. Representation is important. Headcanons are fantastic. But I feel we lost the importance of empathizing and connecting with those who aren’t just like us.
It’s okay to have a different interpretation so long as we don’t force them on others. They won’t be as receptive if you force your opinions. I like hearing people who have a different interpretation because it exposes me to different ideas and also help me connect with that person. But at the end of the day, it’s okay if you disagree. The internet is so concerned with wanting to prove we’re right and everyone is wrong we’ve forgotten how to just sit down and be okay with those who see things with a different lens.
Exactly, and so long as you don't use your interpretations to attack others, I don't have an issue.
@MangaKamen moral of the story:
1. Don't be a jackass when decussing an interpretative price of work
2. We can connect greatly by stories
Honesty, it’s kind of scary just how accurate Japanese writers from over a decade ago perfectly predicted the cyber social dynamics of today.
Looking at the lyrics of Pursuing My True Self, it's hard to believe they're from 2008.
Even Persona 5 has that. It’s weird but so good. It makes want to play P3,4,5 again because of how accurate they are tbh
Whats crazy is Social Media wasnt even really a thing at that time, especially in the years before that it took to write and make the game. It sure called it though.
Also reminds me of some of Kojima’s games that somehow predict what was gonna happen.
If you think persona 4 was a scary example of how accurately the Japanese predicted online culture then you would have a heart attack if you looked at the first generation of dot hack
Atlus: Kanji is a character who has always been misunderstood and had his manhood questioned due to his softer sides. This has made Kanjo turn into raging, insecure person unable to form proper relationships due to fear of rejection. His story is commentary on social expectations and inspection what it means to be strong man.
Twitter-PEOPLE: KANJI IS GAY, YOU BIGOTS! PERSONA IS HOMOPHOBIC GAME!
The story never ends
You Forgot to also Add,
Twitter Poeple: *Oh And Naoto is Trans And if you disagree We’ll crucify you*
@@JustSomeRandomGuy1063 Yes, but most of these Twitter people haven't played game that far, so it's not as prelavent
@@CheshireCad just because you want him to be gay doesn't make it """suspicious""" that he's not gay
@@CheshireCad at much i could see Kanji being bisexual, and you just prove it the comment right, why has Kanji has to be gay? Why not characters like Yosuke or Yukiko or the protagonist, why the guy whose whole arc is leaving stereotypes behind
@@RoutaAskel you mean they haven't played the game
So i'm a trans guy, and while I don't feel that Naoto's storyline is trans, I can see how Naoto's story would specificaly speak to trans women, as opposed to trans men. but I honestly agree with the points you made here!
I've always interpreted Kanji as bi, but specifically due to his crush on Naoto before an after finding out that she's a girl. But like you said, that's not the point of his story and chracter. Kanji is a character I heavily relate to and love so much, and I think he's a shining example of interests not determining one's identity.
This was an excellent video and shows a clear understanding of the themes and truths of Persona 4.
Even though I only completed P4 last year every time the “Naoto is trans” or “Kanji is gay” discussion gets brought up my eyes roll so far back they pop out of my eye sockets. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding at best and most of the time, it’s a bad faith interpretation of every line with the player doing everything they can to disconnect every sentence from surrounding context. What’s more frustrating is that people will use parts of the games actual problematic lines as evidence, which while those scenes are terribly aged, don’t support the argument. It’s a different issue entirely.
I connected with Kanji and loved his character because he paralleled issues I faced as a teenager. I used to get mocked and told I was “girly” or “fruity” because of my voice, the way I sit, my favourite colour, anything, man. It lead me to in my teenage years doing everything I could to appear as masculine as possible. Working out, intentionally making my voice deeper, sitting with my legs spread as possible. It wasn’t who I was, but I was too scared of being rejected or ostracised. I think Persona 4 portrays these issues well, and to see people completely misinterpret the scenes sucks to see.
Again, this video was great, and you should be very proud. Much love ❤
Thank you very much for the kind words.
It's really odd people automatically label Kanji as gay because of his shadow when his whole story arc and the game itself is basically about shaking off stereotypes from certain labels and seeing more than the surface level
I feel people get too desperate to have physical representation that they don't realize how, even people with completely different lives and appearances, can have very similar lives and problems. I also feel these types of people are usually the ones that claim they want to understand everyone
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo exactly. But some people would rather push their head canons much more than talking about acceptance of your identity.
People are dumb, persona 4 is a pretty simple story but they were able to see absurd things in it.
..... well I guess after Akechi’s case I should not be surprised anymore (so many people are convinced he’s a puppet of Shido or Yaoldabaoth).
@@edwardsuou Dude, Akechi was chosen by Yaldabaoth to be Joker’s counterpart. The game is pretty explicit about that part.
@@Gafafsg *sigh*
The game doesn’t say Yaoldabaoth was controlling Akechi and Joker it directly states he can’t control either of them and he was just enjoying the show. Maybe you weren’t paying attention.
@@edwardsuou to be absolutely fair
He set up akechi to go down his path, then did the same with joker, albeit more directly
Akechi without yaldabaoths attention would've gotten nowhere, he had to get the app deliberately to start doing what he was doing
Akechi says be it god or demon, he got the app, which clearly put him down his path
That's only possible through yaldabaoths intervention, as is stated as such by lavenza, especially clarifying that akechi and joker would inevitably meet and clash thanks to said interventions
Steering a river doesn't mean you have to control the flow of said river, being a catalyst can be enough to put someone down the path
So, yes, he wasn't puppeteering akechi, but he did give him the tools to go down the road he did, so he had a hand in it, period
Presently, it kinda pisses me off how tomboys are seen as trans. Like I used to get the same questions as Kanji and Naoto. “Are you gay because you like things like Star Wars and Power Rangers?” “Are you a guy or something cause you don’t dress feminine enough, you’re weird.” Especially teenagers, hyper focus on who people think they are, and words hurt more than they actually should. It’s all apart of growing up and growing into yourself. I’m still kinda a tomboy, tho I dress more feminine now depending on my mood. I found out for myself that I wasn’t gay, nor was I trans, instead of forcing myself into that box and going along with how people saw me as, a weird quiet tomboy who should be gay or a guy. Kinda like how Twitter wants Kanji and Naoto match what they perceive them as, and not who they actually are.
The Problem is that these People think trans Erasure is tantamount to trans g****ide.
what people need to understand
Kanjis story not about sexuality
Naoto story is not about being trans
is about accepting for who you are
Agree
Also you misspelled accepting.
@@kenxiong9776 sorry
@@SergioLeonardoCornejo then persona 4 just proves people just wanna see something what's in thier head not the truth what's right front of them , is like what they said fail see thing's what is not there
i t really feels sometimes like some people applying "Accepting your self" as a lgbtq only thing, as if other people have no problems or struggle. Heck there was a video once about psychonauts 2 and how Raz family struggle was appearently queer representation.... you know, psychonauts 2, the game with an open homosexuel married couple that is treated normaly like everyone else in the game.
@@toongrowner1 Because they like to play the victims
I'm with you kamen...
Persona 4 is forever blessed with this curse... and as an SMT fan I understand your and many persona fans' frustrations.
The joys of what we like becoming Mainstream. Even had to deal with in Super Robot Wars 30 of all places. Never thought a game about Mecha Anime getting mashed up would have to deal with this crap as well.
@@nobalkain624 oh boy... what happened to SRW30?
@@nesmario123 For Ange in Majestic Prince they decided in the English Translation to have the rest of the Pilots discussing if they should ask Ange what her/his proper Pronouns are, instead of just saying if they should ask if Ange is a Boy or Girl like in the Japanese Text.
It was shown in a proper Translation that they are only discussing about if they are a Boy or Girl. Not only do they change that text but they added in text where other Characters are Shammed and called Creepy for even wondering about it.
To top it all off its hinted that Ange is Trans. For anyone who has watched MJP this is never the case as its a running Joke that Ange is rather Androgynous and no one get around to asking her/he.
Just for talking about this I was Permanently Banned from the Steam Forums with no Warning, let alone telling me why.
Thank you for clearing up that Naoto isn't trans. I've tried to explain it to some people but..... well you can take a guess what was said to me. :/ And you are absolutely correct about things being a product of their time period and thus were not made with the modern mindset, so it'd be unfair to push what's 'correct' today onto what was yesteryear. Keep in mind the same people saying they're on 'the right side of history', which is BS because history always changes as do social norms, would be saying and believing the opposite of what they currently believe if they were born and raised in the 1800s.
I've always viewed "Being on the wrong side of history" as only applying to actions and opinions which would be considered wrong even at the time. Like how torturing a slave to death was obviously an inhuman thing to do even in the 1800's.
Right now we're in an award transition state when it come to queer rights. On the one hand, companies still do have minor reasons to be hesitant about including queer characters, since some major foreign countries are vehemently bigoted and would ban the movie/show/film, if not the company itself.
But, on the other hand... Oh my fuck, just stop being a bunch of pearl-clutching little pussies hanging onto the Hays Code like fucking Joe McCarthy is about to ooze out of his grave and start Jim Crow 2: Rainbow Boogaloo.
I'm honestly surprised nobody talks about how Naoto's shadow tackles the subject on a male-oriented society. The whole reason why Naoto's shadow wanted to make Naoto a man was because of Naoto's inner desire to succeed in the police force, which at the time was *very* skewed into male favor.
The reason no one talks about it is because it’s written like shit, hope this helps!
@@wjjgtin5074 it's not written like shit, you just can't read
The Naoto thing is the one that irritates me the most. It’s a very Japanese character arc: Japan is a patriarchal country, Naoto makes the public think she’s male because they won’t accept her as a detective otherwise. To turn it into “Naoto’s trans and if you disagree you’re transphobic” is to strip away the Japanese roots of the game and force a western filter on it
Actually the message is even less progressive than that. The game never even implied that her not being taken seriously is a bad thing for her fellow detectives to do, only that cross dressing to impress is childish. Based.
@@doublebassman123 What? Naoto’s shadow doesn’t imply she’s childish for wanting to fit in, it’s playing on her insecurities about being treated like less than, not only because she’s a girl, but also because she’s so young. All of the characters’ shadows behave in ways that intentionally get under their owners’ skin. Like how Yosuke doesn’t actually think the world is beneath him, or how Kanji isn’t actually attracted to men.
I'm surprised its not understood in the West still, as misogyny and what professions people expect women and men be in. Sexism still exists and I can understand why she dresses masculine to avoid being torn down over how she was born
What's worse, they use that Western *leftist* filter, let's clarify that part of it too, to criticize the game for supposedly having a bad take on their identitarian social politics of choice. That's what they do with EVERYTHING, though.
@@Gafafsg I love how he tried to turn that into a point against a side he disagreed with and called it "based".
He's part of the problem.
Long before I even knew who Kanji was I always thought it was weird that people viewed hobbies as explicitly Male and Female, to me hobbies were hobbies but after playing P4G I could see where I feel into similar traps as Kanji growing up and like he found out part of accepting who you are is growing a heart strong enough to not let others bother you, problem is some people can become bitter to it but I'm glad I had my brother and dad in my life to remind me that others only assume what they don't know, what matters is what you know so I don't hide myself or my hobbies, I can be a man that likes cute shit, a guy that draws, a guy that builds model kits
I still find it fascinating how Kanji’s struggles in-universe are tied to people not bothering to actually get to know him and instead judging him based on stereotypes… and he has this exact same problem in real life, which you would only realize if you decide to actually get to know him instead of relying on stereotypes
THANK YOU! Someone finally point this out. The midnight channel isn't a reflection of what's in someone's mind. It's a combination of inner insecurity and public perception. People labeling Kanji gay and Naoto Trans is exactly what the story is telling people not to do. *Kanji is Kanji*. Only thing we can say about Kanji definitively is that he likes Naoto. There are plenty of things the game fleshes out about Kanji and people are just focusing on the gay aspect that the game doesn't even care that much. It drives me crazy when people think all other aspect of kanji (like his affinity for girly stuff) is deriven from his gayness.
p.s. that clip of Troy Baker is so typical of him and it gave me a brain tumor.
It’s almost exactly like Chihiro from Danganronpa, just wish people wouldn’t think how they feel equals the absolute truth. Hell gamegrumps skipped all of Chihiro’s backstory because they just assumed it was transphobic (honestly I don’t like their humor in general but I gave them a shot with Danganronpa… it was insufferable, their play style was beyond aggravating and how they treated Chihiro’s story was the last straw, never again).
Arin was the one who went on his high horse. Which was seriously hypocritical on his part.
Chihiro literally hates being seen as feminine and dies because he wanted to be buff and masculine so people seeing him as trans is borderline offensive
Yeah, I just encountered another let’s player just assume Chihiro’s backstory was transphobic via skipping it. They also thought it was “them justifying the murder” & thought Chihiro was happy presenting as female. No, the opposite happened, how did they miss that?
Well this is going to start a comment section war but it has to be done. WAY too many people are misreading P4 and I think we’re all tired of having to go through it again and again
Well better grab some popcorns in case that happens
"Have you ever heard the definition of insanity?"
I'm fine with people having different opinions and headconons, and learning to disagree with each other on matters which aren't established fact.
It's the bad-faith parties on both sides which are ruining any possibility of mutual understanding. On twitter, it's the "Naoto is trans because of this one screenshot and if you talk about context you're a bigot" crowd.
But elsewhere, including this comment section, is overrun with the small subset of gamers who will throw an entitled petulant hissy-fit at any mention whatsoever of including a gay character. They treat any kind of character diversity as a personal attack against them, like a horde of woke leftists is coming to kick down their doors and turn the casts of all their favorite games into the Burger King Kids Club.
I'm definitely not saying that everyone with that interpretation is bigoted. There's multiple reasons to view it that way. But wow, that vocal minority brought enough butthurt for everyone.
@@tmb11212 yes, yes I have.
@@CheshireCad There in lies the issue. So many people have gotten sick of being called everything in the book that they often have a knee jerk reaction. Did you know that back in the day if you were called a Nazie/Istaphob/Racist/Biggot they were considered a serious accusation? It has been so overused that its not different then calling someone a Jerk at this point. My Wife and I used to stand with the LGB Community back in the day, but once we dared to ask question that went against the "Message" we where called all these things.
I have never once had a problem with people living as they wish, but getting called the same as the Worst Humanity has to offer makes one a bit prickly. I dont agree with anyone attacking someone for who they are, but I also refuse to be attacked just because I dont like Characters being changed to make others feel more "included". How about instead they, or even you, make New Characters and tell New Stories.
It's always ironic how a game whose central theme is truth, and humanity's constant struggle to perceive it, is so regularly misinterpreted or misrepresented, both intentionally & unintentionally.
Ah well, still a great game. Golden helped me a lot with getting through my last year of high school (in 2020 mind), acting both as a comfort, and reflection of my struggle with understanding myself and perception of my world.
Kanji has "effeminate hobbies" like sewing or is the way the he saw as for Naoto, she was considere a brat by the police because her age and her personality made the police be anger with her (Akechi has more political mind and he is a manipulator). Naoto's shadow acts more a child, if it was a sexual confusion, her shadow would be looking as a Kenshiro/Jotaro Wannabie. That is my opinion
As a trans woman I have to say thank you for making this. Honestly if Naoto had been trans or Kanji had been gay truly in the final product it would not be good representation at all. Especially Naoto who was only masquerading as a boy solely because of the sexism in the police if they had pulled what Guilty Gear did with Bridget recently, I wouldn't like it. And as someone who resonated with both Naoto and Kanji, I feel most of those people miss the point and are the same people that would have made them to be the characters they were prior to being put in the TV world, especially Kanji. Like yeah sure there are some jokes they could do at their expense that I found tasteless, but their arcs are handled really well especially from the perspective of a super homophobic and transphobic Japan at the time. Also don't take Twitter seriously those are the migrants from Tumblr.
How do you feel about Bridget?
I'm happy it adds to more trans representation in games, but it does bite at me to lose out on 20 year GNC rep, and i worry it validates the whole "feminine men are closet trans girls" rhetoric that goes around on Twitter.
@@brysonharrison5698 That is more or less my opinions. Like it has good intentions and I love the fact that there is more representation in Japan for trans people, I just am not a fan of the idea of the implication that all feminine men are trans women even though there is context given for Bridget's feminine looks
@@brysonharrison5698 I never understood why they did that, it's basically saying that the grooming worked on him, which doesn't really feel right tbh
@@brysonharrison5698 I really don’t like it. It is kinda like Naoto’s case, only this decision is canonical for some reason. The entire point of Bridget was a biological boy, who was groomed to be a girl, wanting to be a man. That recent decision basically gives off the implication that now, the entire point of Bridget’s story is: grooming victim gives into grooming. It wasn’t even done well in Strive, with 99% of the time Bridget saying “I’m a man” to everyone who thought they were looking at a girl. In the original games Bridget was apart of, he even got angry when people assumed he was female, which doesn’t really come off as being a trans girl to me. To be honest, one of the many bad decisions in video games I hope is reversed, but probably too late now. Like: make a new trans character. Or someone else other than the grooming victim trans.
I think games like persona come around when you need them it's like the universe knows your going through something and they send you something like this to help you through it
Fitting how I'm playing p5r at the end of my high school life.
This is why I don’t take Head Canon seriously when discussing about works. The writers never intended for Naoto to be trans. The fact that in the Golden Ending when she fully accepts herself as a female detective by comfortably dressing in Women’s clothing proves it
This I can agree some head canons can work but most are just not that good.
but but death of the author or something meh
This is why I love this channel. Someone who is able to remove their own biases and half assed interpretation. I got tired of having to explain this to people on reddit and Twitter. This franchise is one of my largest inspirations in life and seeing people claim distorted interpretations as fact always irked me.
"I got tired of explaining stuff to *Twitter/reddit"* and that is where you made your fatal mistake.
It'd be nice if people were open to discussion and other ideas but that's asking too much nowadays. Exchange of ideas is mostly dead meaning the spread of good ideas and the destruction of bad ideas is no longer possible.
A harsh truth...
You can project as hard as you want towards characters like Kanji or Naoto for having similar experiences to you, but you will not get a character that's 100% you unless you create your autobiography. Even people similar to you will have different lifestyles/pasts, made different life decisions, and possess different personality traits from you, some subtle and others drastic.
Yet this isn't a bad thing. It can often be those very differences that make them appealing people. Things like self-appreciation and empathy towards others stem from accepting how different people are.
Frankly? I don't need to see myself in any fictional character. I live with myself every day and that's good enough for me. What similarities I find are often overshadowed by some other defining character trait that I tend to appreciate more.
In regards to Naoto's dungeon possibly being a very harsh (if not insulting) view of trangender, I would like to put forward that it's not meant to be a view of transitioning, but a metaphor using imagery from showa era tokusatusu. Just about all the kamen riders from this era were people that were abducted by the villain organization in the show and operated on to become a cyborg soldier for them. Some super sentais also incorporated this where the bad guy organization would abduct people and operate on them into monsters. Naoto is twisting herself inside out to conform to the harsh patriarchal society of her chosen field. Shadow Naoto's form is also very reminiscent of Kikaider, a robot tokusatsu hero who struggles with being caught between being a machine and humanity thanks to his conscious chip. There's a lot of tokusatsu imagery in Naoto's dungeon that doesn't tend to get brought up outside of the lab table being a (possible) metaphor for transitioning. Just... my interoperation of it all. Someone should ask Hashino about it...
There's nothing quite so frustrating as seeing the game- whatever game that may be- try and often succeed in making a powerful, moving point about something, only to have random asshats on the internet ignore that point and repurpose the dialogue for use in their Validation Crusade. It should be criminal, I swear.
This is the song that never ends....
Jokes aside, thank you for this; Persona 4 is literally a formative game for me and my childhood, and I hold its themes and these two characters close to my heart. It pains me to see people so blatantly misinterpret and/or dislike the themes even though they couldn't be more obvious. Naoto especially hits me hard, because what I most resonated with her was not her gender issues, but her issues with growing up, being afraid of change, and being afraid of other people's opinions ruining what she loved to do. That last one especially hits me hard with how I pursue my passions and hobbies that people around me may disagree with, and after 11 long years, I find myself having to learn these lessons over and over again. Naoto is such an amazing character, as is Kanji the best boi; their character arcs are so much deeper, and so much more resonant than people give credit for. And isn't that the entire theme of this game anyway? That people are much deeper than you think, and that's why you must never stop pursuing the truth?
As someone who wants to create and write stories of my own one day, this kind of stuff almost makes me nervous on how people may react to the characters in said stories.
Like, authors can't predict what the fanbase might feel about a certain character, or what those fans might believe a character is. So, what happens when an author's vision for a character is starkly different to how fans interpret a character?
Say, for an example: You have a character; A femme fatale, butch woman, who takes no BS from anyone and would kick your ass in a heartbeat. You have an arc in your head, where said character discovers that their supposed dead lover was actually alive, and start teasing to this fact by having her mention said dead lover without explicitly saying who said lover is. But as you're writing, you notice that the fanbase has speculated that said lover is another woman, but you already decided that is was a man introduced much earlier on that was the missing lover. What are you to do then? If you change it to go with the fan theories, that could break whatever you were planning. But if you go through with your idea, some fans might accuse you of "Queer-baiting", even if that wasn't your plan all along. It feels like a lose-lose situation
This is probably an issue that a lot of storytellers in this modern age face (something that you mentioned happened to Modern day horror games, funnily enough.) As a writer, there's always a desire to please the fans of our works, but sometimes we don't know which fans we should listen to and give more of what they want.
(I might be looking too hard into this but oh well, wanted to get my opinion out there)
And as someone else who's planning to write stories of my own, I can relate. Granted the stuff I have planned don't have the mystery element you talked about, I'm sure there will be religious people ragging on me for portraying demons in a positive light, heck the main character is the crown prince of the demons. If that happens, I'm not gonna care about it because its not my problem.
This is the entire snape fiasco in a nutshell where rowling writes a asshole who takes out his anger from harrys father onto him constantly and because of that people view him as a piece of shit when in her mind hes some misunderstood good guy and forgot to actually write him into being that.
Oh wow it's baisically similar to Bayonetta 3
Fans had a headcanon lesbian ship and accepted that headcanon as truth even though she was always planned to go with her male freind introduced earlier in the story.
@@revolvingworld2676 When was it ever planned that Bayonetta was going to end up with Luka. Even Hideki Kamiya (prior to Bayonetta 3) said that if she ever got romantically involved with Luka, she wouldn't take the relationship all that seriously because she would far outlive him due to being an Umbra Witch. This statement is completely contradicted in Bayonetta 3 due to her basically proclaiming Luka as the love of her life. Not to mention that Bayonetta's relationship with Luka never really came off as romantic (at least to me). It was more like master and pet rather than two people having romantic feelings for each other.
Bro when I saw that Twitter thread I knew that someone was gonna make this video but I didn't think it'd be Kamen. Can't wait for the premier
one way of explaining the p4 shadows i like is its the complete person completely unhinged and nothing negative is being pushed back. all the good things are still there just overtaken by the negative aspects along with the influence of the shadow world. the shadow is the true self in every way possible its your positives and negatives along with how the world sees you, every aspect of you combined into one and its so weird and offputting to you because we never are complete we repress the bad things about ourselves and sometimes the good things and we can never be truly aware of how others can see us.
unrelated but great profile picture
When I Saw Naoto in The Thumb Nail I Knew I had to Watch This
Full offense but if someone says "Naoto is trans!/Kanji is gay!" I immediately know they did not play the game or pay attention and I have no interest in speaking with them further. Noe, I says "is" not "I see them as" or "I interrupt them as". The latter is fair, though I disagree. The former is an assertion on canon and I've been in fandom in general long enough to know anytime someone "asserts" anything on the canon, it's always bullshit. The never have proof from the source material. Just feelings. I don't do feelings in literary/media analysis.
Well i never expected a vid with Kamen and Cartoonshi talking about Persona gotta say this was entertaining, well done u2.
Dude, P4G is my all-time favorite videogame in this life, and it infuriates me that people has no media literacy and only look things on face value, which is ironic if you pay attention to the story's main theme. I hope people can understand that, but I'm also dreading when this game comes to all consoles.
Haven’t finished the video, but I definitely agree that it almost feels as if people have these interpretations just to put people down.
I remember seeing a tweet that basically tried to make it sound like anyone who enjoyed the plot of p4 had to be some sort of hard alt right conservative, and someone I knew QTed about how bad it was to assume someone’s political views from a dumb JRPG. Someone then replied to said quote tweet, saying that they weren’t wrong about the story being about erasure and I replied that it’s perfectly fine if they think that, as long as they don’t judge others for enjoying the game.
This person then immediately replied insisting that the plot is “FUNDAMENTALLY” about the erasure of minorities, and I just felt dumbfounded. Not only that, but it just made me feel fucking awful as someone who had friends who are LGBT; making me think that I was supporting a game that was insisting that they didn’t exist.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that: please don’t do this sort of shit. Because intentionally or not, you’re just putting people down for liking a fucking video game.
There’s nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable or even thinking that it might give a bad message, but making people feel horrible for enjoying it is just being an ass.
If there was more logic and reason in the world stuff like that wouldn't be happening. Unfortunately humanity is a species of hate and emotionally charged responses reveal that. Hate goes in ALL directions and no matter how hard we try we can never truly erase it. Temper yourself and live your best life.
I've always felt that kanji is possibly bisexual(considering he does show interest in men)
But that his arc was never all about his sexuality.
It was about his personality as a whole. With sexuality just veing a part of it.
Yeah I do feel like Kanji is at least bisexual, even if he likes girls he does show interest in Naoto when he thought she was a guy.
Otherwise it is true, both Kanji's and Naoto's arcs were about accepting themselves for who they are, even thought I'm all for more trans representation in games I think their stories were really nicely handled, Naoto wouldn't be the same if she decided the only way to be respected was to become a man rather than doing so as a woman.
Persona 4 helped a lot with my insecurities especially kanji when it came too liking things that weren’t masculine
i'm a bisexual trans man. i was in the fandom way before getting the game. Dancing All Night music came on once and sent me down a spiral of all the dancing games, and not too long after, the ports to everything were announced. it was almost the perfect storm. anyways, i saw posts about the game and its characters long before i could make up my own opinion. i saw it everywhere, "but have you _seen_ Kanji and Naoto's shadows" and "nobody on the Investigation Team is cisgender or heterosexual" and while it's fun to have headcanons and make jokes, it can really muddy the intended view of a character for anyone. when i finally got the game and started playing through it, i expected to resonate with Kanji and Naoto the most for reasons that were entirely untrue to their character arcs. and while i did end up resonating hard with Kanji after his Shadow boss fight (wanting to be accepted and be seen as normal is not a queer person-exclusive experience), it's easy for me to tell that he isn't actually attracted to men, he wants to be accepted for being a man and liking "feminine" things. going through his social link and finding out why made me love him even more.
i was able to max Naoto out pretty quickly because i love using her in battle and wanted those sweet upgrades. going through her social link had me realise how...not trans she is. she's easily one of my favourite characters in the series in general.
viewing these two through an entirely western lens, and even then, at surface level, strips away what makes them so great. i once saw someone that that they're badly written queer characters. and that's... why they're "badly written," they're not intended to be queer characters. finding yourself out and finally accepting yourself for who you are is a wonderful experience for anyone, and it is so freeing for a queer person like myself. but these two aren't queer, and saying so is what their arcs with accepting themselves go against.
This gotta be one of the best P4 videos I've seen. Your way to talk is always honest and respectful but not dull, which is kinda hard to get by. I hope to see what you'll do in the future.
The people who screech about “Kanji is gay and Naoto is trans” kinda prove the points that their stories establish in the game. The societal pressures of people who distill their personal experiences, interests, and hardships into a single mold that they don’t even fit into to begin with are exactly what made them feel so outcasted and confused.
To be fair most people who would attack you for this are tumblr refugees on Twitter who were the same group of people who weren’t above harassing a person to nearly committing suicide because that person drew a character in a way they didn’t like in a fan art!
Apparently as we speak, someone is already responding to this video in a jumbled livestream.
This is a video that Snapcube REALLY needs to watch.
While this is headcanon, I like to believe that through his interactions with Naoto before and after her gender is revealed that Kanji is at least some level of bisexual, and while it's not the main focus of his arc with it being to accept himself and his hobbies, it's still a personal belief that Kanji swings either way.
As someone who deeply relates to Naoto's arc, I must say I really like your nuanced take on her as a character. It's fine if someone wants to headcanon her as trans, but calling someone transphobic because they don't share your opinion is taking it way too far.
I hate the discourse around Kanji and Naoto because their gender/sexuality isn’t the big thing about them. The crux of their character is that they’re forcing themselves into a box or putting up walls to cover up the fact that they’re outside the status quo. And the reason they’re struggling with themselves is because they’re putting themselves into a different box instead of breaking apart the box itself. Their character arc ends with the liberation of living authentically, even if they change from how they originally thought. And I fully understand the concern with a character like Kanji and Naoto saying “I’m not ACTUALLY lgbt I just don’t align with gender norms” (mostly because actual homophobes/transphobes use this to delegitimize people. I should know, if I had a nickel for every “but how do you KNOW you’re gay if you’ve never kissed a girl” I’d be one rich bastard) but insisting Kanji or Naoto are something they’re not take so much away from legitimate nuance in their arcs
Its always disheartening to see the discourse behind Kanji and naoto because they were in my opinion the best part of Persona 4
I relate a lot to Kanji, my dad always taught me to be tough, physically and mentally. But I always felt that it was really confusing to me, I like the scent of flowers and stuffed toys, but I'm always told that that stuff is girly. I still don't know who I am, but I learned how to become stronger in different ways, I still don't quite know.
Mad respect for you and Cartoonshi talking about mis characterization in 4 and actually pointed out details about how Midnight Channel really works. Given this video (and your content in general), you remind me of my friend TobiZenko, who talk about mis characterization and fan discourse within the Dragonball series as a whole. 😶
Very informative video, it was nice to have a refresher on various parts of the game and it was neat to examine stuff I hadn't given much thought before (such as the Shadows' nature on the midnight channel).
Glad it was helpful
As a trans woman, I've always related to Naoto because she was in a situation where she was living as a man to be taken seriously, despite it not being what she actually wanted. She was playing a role to be what society wanted her to be instead of just being who she is, which is exactly the situation I was in before I started transitioning.
In regards to Kanji, I personally interpret/headcanon him as having sexual orientation-themed OCD. His interests being considered feminine and that femininity being linked by others to homosexuality caused him to question himself. His shadow could be construed as a manifestation of intrusive thoughts that he was running away from.
It took accepting his shadow for him to get better, which could be an analogue for acknowledging intrusive thoughts, but understanding that they don't define him as a person and not letting them impact him to the same degree that they had before. Hell, the process of confronting your shadow could even be seen as a metaphor for exposure and response prevention therapy.
EDIT: Also, Bridget isn't trans. ArcSys just decided to pander to certain types of people and in turn changed a beloved GNC character to a transphobic caricature.
This has bothered me for ages man. Naoto and Kanji are reallly good examples of misunderstanding characters and the difference between American and Japanese Culture.
Man Kojima truely is a genius, Metal Gear Solid just doesn't age, that shit is timeless
or maybe we as Human are simply taking 2 steps back per every step forward always keeping us where we just were
That would make us go backwards, not stay in place, +1 -2 = -1
History repeats its self. As you get old you start seeing it. When your young you laugh at the ranting of that Crazy Old Man. Live long enough and you become him, as I have.
It is a truth that progress is ironically a zero-sum game. Because there are far too many comfortable people and people willing to argue rather than to make progress until a breaking point,
, and people willing to take advantage of that in every single way possible, progress is usually just trading advantages elsewhere to desperately gain others only to drop them when they no longer fit your needs.
Something about this reminds me of a tale and old boss of mine told me, although I forget some of the details.
A man has two sons. The one that was his favorite was the football player, the manly one. The one that was everything he wanted in his son; the image of strength, virility and what all women would want.
His unfavorite son, meanwhile... was on the cheerleading squad. He thought of him as a sissy. The one who would never give him grandchildren, the one one who was a disappointment.
However at some point two facts came out, one not too long after the other. The son he was proud about, the football player... was gay. And the son he was sure was a sissy... had knocked up three girls. As it turns out the first son played football... because that's where all the guys were. And the son on the cheerleading team was there... because that's where all the girls are.
Not sure on how true it was, but it does make you think a bit, huh?
“Young James Dean, some say he looks just like his father
But he could never love somebody else’s daughter
Football team, loved more than just the game
So he vowed to be his husband at the altar”
Yeah, that comment about Twitter being the real world midnight channel seems pretty apt (especially when you consider the shit that occurred with the whole “kick Vic” movement way back when and the shit around Chuggaconroy back in January this year. I honestly don’t know whether or not the stuff surrounding them is true, but the problem is once things got out, everybody hounded them and treated them like a demon instead of a PERSON who made a bad choice and has the potential to learn from it.)
It should be noted that naoto gets a spin off series where she grows her hair out and becomes a detective despite being a woman and young.
It’s a great series as she gets a lot of action and showcasing her being proud of herself and her robot partner she gets. (A guy who protects her but trusts her on her own)
Wait, really? What's it called?
@@Cerebrum123 I think they mean persona x detective naoto
@@juanito46101 Thanks, I'll have to check it out. I knew Persona was a spinoff itself, but I didn't know it had spinoffs other than the fighting games and Persona 5 Strikers which is also kind of a sequel to 5.
I feel the need to point out that Detective Naoto is considered not canon by the wider community. I have not read it myself, but based on what i’ve heard, it contradicts various aspects of game canon.
Also, there are more spin-off games besides Arena and Strikers. The three Dancing games and the Q duology exist (P4 Dancing is an actual, canonical sequel story to P4 while P3D and P5D take place in the character’s dreams, set up by the Velvet Residents; and the Q games are crossovers between the modern Persona games, taking place in pocket dimensions that allow for the casts to be pulled from specific points in their story, such as the P4 gang being pulled from around the culture festival)
@@dededeletethis9940 I'd still want to check out Detective Naoto because it sounds neat. Canon seems to be somewhat loose in the Persona series anyway, what with how Personas are acquired, to how they are summoned being changed regularly for starters.
I forgot about the dancing games, but I do remember seeing one now that you mention it.
I still think back to that Extra Credits vid on this and how they just claimed Kanji was gay and Naoto was trans, but didn’t even go into why for the latter.
Honestly, watching this video makes me want to play Persona 4 Golden again. Can't wait for it to be released on the switch. Personally, I never saw the "Naoto is Trans" argument when I played the game. I just saw a woman struggling to establish herself in a male dominant workplace and being underestimated because she was still a child. When I was playing her side of the story, it reminded me a lot of Disney's Mulan. As for Kanji, he's my second favourite character in the game (Chie being number 1). Hearing how he had such a rough upbringing due to him being judged and ridiculed because he wasn't traditionally masculine was upsetting, but him overcoming his insecurities and embracing himself for who he is thanks to finding friends who accept him always warmed my heart. Persona 4 is a great game, I like Persona 5 Royal more, but that doesn't discredit Persona 4 Golden from being good.
PS: I always saw Kanji as Bisexual. He not only shows interest in girls when he saw Chie and Yukiko in swimsuits and still having a crush on Naoto even after learning she was a woman, but in Persona 4 Arena, he makes a comment about staring at Akihiko's physique. He says, "Ooh, check out those muscles. Even a man like me can't help but stare...". But that's just me, Kanji is a great character regardless.
Love kanji as a character, yes his story isn’t connected to sexuality, but that does not mean he can’t be bi
As a side note I’ve always taken the quote from him after accepting his shadow self in the steam house as what i see him as
“It ain’t a matter of guys or chicks, I’m just scared shitless of being alone..”
- "I am a Shadow... the true self".
So pay attention to what Yosuke says about Kanji's Shadow. "This isn't really him. It's just his emotions going haywire".
- What you say about the Shadows in the TV also taking on aspects of how the public sees that person. Yes exactly. And to add to what you said about Namatame, this is literally said verbatim by Izanami. She says what shows up on the midnight channel is a reflection of how the public views that person.
Was pretty much my exact argument when my cousin and me were debating whether or not Kanji is gay. I bring up Rise's Shadow and how the stripper thing is a part of what the public thinks about her, and not an actual part of her personality. Though I do think Kanji is still somewhat sexually confused as unlike Rise it still comes again and again afterwards. But to call him gay outright, completely misses the point.
Part of the problem I feel like and this is true from BOTH sides in my opinion, straight and gay. And I say this growing up as a straight male who was frequently accused of being gay. Is that as a straight male, to be perceived as straight you have to "act" 100% "straight" at all times. If you ever do something as superficial as even sing a female verse in a song, or even touch another guy's hand for half of a second everyone accuses you of being gay. Even the gay guys do it, which is just the same stereotypical bullshit that they accused the straight guys of putting them through.
Ultimately I feel like literally everyone deals with something like Kanji at some point.
- Ooh. I actually didn't know about that interview with Troy Baker with him saying Kanji was "clearly gay". Yeah, I can see how people would take that as gospel, though I personally have never seen that argument used by anyone.
But feel like he completely missed the point as well. I also just can't take that the way he does with everything about being accepted in Kanji's social link.
- Ameno-sagiri: "Humans fail to see things as they truly are. They see only what they wish". Lmao!
Going through all of this. I think I may have realized why Persona 4 is still my favorite and why frankly I didn't like Persona 5 as much. Persona 5's story and themes just didn't resonate with me, or come to me at a time in my life where I was actively dealing with those themes (mid teens). At least not in the way that Persona 4 did. Not even close. In fact I think I might actually disagree with many of P5's themes than agree with them. Or at the least I'm indifferent.
I mean I kinda always knew really. I always had some idea, and of course there could be something that I'm overlooking. I guess what I'm trying to say is that revisiting Persona 4's themes put it into perspective.
37 minutes if MangaKamen speaking the truth? Let’s do this!
If or of ?
Hitting us with that Myriad Truths
Wait, is THAT why there've been so many P4 videos lately? Twitter got assmad? Twitter ALWAYS gets assmad. It's all they know how to do.
Edit: Bridget isn't trans.
That's not all unfortunately. Thanks to a Twitch streamer I also found out that Yukiko and Chie are lesbians who are in love with each other. Why ? Because they're very good friends and they care for each other so of course, they might as well be lesbians. I really thought Kanji and Naoto were the only victims of Twitter's overinterpretation but I guess these morons can find LGBTQ undertones everywhere if they look hard enough.
And they give a bad name to the LGBT community.
Yukiko literally says she loves men tho what
Content of the video is good, great way to point out the difference, not only between headcanons and actual lines, but also between the characters and their shadow selves.
I adore Kanji for much the same reason. I saw so much of myself through him. Still do.
You can be a man, identify as a man, be heterosexual AND have noticeable feminine traits & interests.
Masculinity & femininity are not mutually exclusive. In fact if they where we'd be highly unstable.
I know its highly controversial to say, but frankly the modern way of handling this by making up a bunch of different identities just reinforces the idea that men & women can only be one way. To be another way is to be something different, something unique, something other.
People jumping on Kanji being gay & Naoto being trans is a perfect example of that. They aren't stereotypes of cis het people so they MUST be stereotypes of LGBT.
What does it mean to be a real man? I don't think anyone can accurately answer that. I believe its something you feel, not something that can be comfortably defined.
The insecurity often coming from the idea of what others might think of you. Again based on restrictive tropes of what people are & can be.
Naoto Shirogane and Kanji Tatsumi… As a person in their mid twenties still trying to understand everything about their identity, I can relate to them on a lot of levels. But I recognize too that no matter how much I wish, I can’t change the story already there. If there is media later that has them discover and come to terms with themselves as some kind of non-straight or non-binary individual that’s fine I just don’t want to force that label on them. I can have au or fics or whatever, but I’m not gonna force that on others because it’s just not who they truly are in the narrative, as it is today for them.
“…unless Twitter is ripped from the roots.”
I know this was written well before whats happening now, but if nothing else there’s signs of it happening and i’m all for seeing how far that goes.
Hey Mangakamen! I saw your video on p4. Never played the series but have watched a lot of it on a lets play channel. I enjoy hearing other peoples take on different kinds of media series and explaing in depth of what things are represented and why they're special. I think it gives a level of clarity and understanding on things I would never notice on my own, either having no interest on some series or never looking deep into what the writers are trying to say.
So it brings a whole new thing to appreciate when a video like this one is brought up.
I always get so upset when people say "P4 is transfobic bc Naoto's storyline....", thats bc I see a lot of myself in Naoto, I like being a girl but a lot of my interests are male oriented, even when I as questioning my sexuality I kept telling myself that it was way easier for me to be a man ( now seeing myself as Bi, actually would be the same as me being bi as a women =v )!! I love Naoto and be able to see her as a women finding place for herself as a female detective is incredibly and so powerful!!!! This game is not perfect but P4 has a special place in my heart for what it try to do and the stories it try to tell.
I always saw Kanji as bi, with added fears. I'm glad you explained it all in detail using social links.
This reminds me a lot of what happened with Chihiro in Danganronpa trigger happy havoc.
I personally see a lot of parallels to Naoto in Chihiro, and in a way you can say the same thing with Kanji and Mondo, but that’s a tangential point.
The thing is, the whole “Chihiro is trans and if you disagree your transphobic” argument that’s been run into the ground for the past decade or so, is in my honest opinion a frankly insulting and regressive argument, as you put succinctly Kamen.
“Oh you’re a man who struggles with being accepted for his less masculine hobbies and how you view your identity in a society that has outdated standards and puts you into a box? You must be gay.”
“Oh you’re a woman who faces gender inequality at work and adults calling you a child because of your age? Well no problem, all you need to do is transition into being a man so you can escape their sexist comments even if you have to permanently change yourself to fit their insatiable mold.”
It’s basically the same with Chihiro, he used his female mask to hide his insecurities in being a “weak” guy but in reality that insecurity continued to fester as he got older, and when put into a death game where it’s every person for themselves, he wanted to grow stronger and enlist the help of someone he thought was strong and manly, which I won’t spoil what happens for those who haven’t played the game.But if you know you know.
I remember this one crazy UA-camr who went on a tirade, defending their headcanon about Chihiro being trans and would actively insult people who provided evidence against their delusional claims and frankly it’s draining and exhausting to always be dealing with people like that, especially when the games become more mainstream, that’s where it gets even more toxic.
My point is, it’s nice to have headcanons, but treating them as absolute truth when it’s not canon, just continues to prove what Anemo Sagittarius said is true.
As a bisexual man, I’d love for future games to have positive queer representation, but I feel that we won’t see the end of these types of Twitter people who insist everything they think is true and ironically they prove that Persona 4 is even more of a classic as time goes on with his progressive the game was for its time
I remember someone putting forth a respectful argument about how Chihiro's story was about Japan's rigid gender roles instead of transexuality. Now get this; not only was this person Japanese, they were actually transexual themself so if anyone had an informed opinion on the subject it would be them. But no; the keyboard activists decried them as transphobic and hurled all manner of abuse their way.
These people don't actually care about transsexuals, or whoever they claim to be fighting for; they just want to make themselves look like heroes by making everyone else a villain.
@@siobhannoble8545 Exactly my sentiment, they want to slay a dragon that doesn't even exist.
Also circling back to what I said, if we played devil's advocate and said Chihiro was trans, wouldn't that kind of ruin the mystery and invalidate what he went through, plus if he were trans he wouldn't have had a problem exercising with Hina and Sakura, so yeah.
I too also have a friend who is transgender, but people who aren't trans come out of the woodwork and say that he's being transphobic when he's just stating facts and giving his personal experience on things, it's like for people who want to champion trans people, they have no problem with also talking down to them the moment they don't preach their narrative.
Persona 4’s discourse and drama is in now in the state of “The Endless Now”, cause no matter when this drama and discourse appeared or when it reappears in modern era, it will always be about the drama of Kanji and Naoto and nothing else, and it has been like this for 14 years.
(and for those persona fans who had been that long into the series then me who had to dealt with this Crap for the past 14 years, y’all have my condolences.)
I really wish this whole stupid drama would just fade away in the future, but seeing how even the villains (Ameno-Sagiri and Izanami) were proven right not only in the games, but even in the FREAKIN REAL WORLD it just means how doomed we are as a species and how that kind of hope is just wishful thinking.
(Edited) P.S great video man, I know you did kinda dipped into this kind of danger zone before but I really didn’t expected you to fully dive into it. Keep doing this kind of work, mate.
Glad someone said it, though I guess many people have been saying it for years. People will pick and choose whatever details they see fit to illustrate their point despite there being other details that can easily contradict that point. It's been a long time since I played Persona 4, and I never thought about how similar the concept of the midnight channel is to the thoughts of Twitter and the rest of the internet. People will push whatever opinion they want to make themselves feel happy and justified, the only difference is that people are so sensitive that they get upset whenever those ideas and opinions get challenged.
Also, MangaKamen, my man, I know you are primarily an anime and video game story based media guy, but with all your wrestling references, I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on wrestling storytelling over the years. I know wrestling stories and characters are not the best all the time, but between AEW, WWE, NJPW and even smaller programs like the short but very entertaining Lucha Underground had a lot going for it in terms of how characters are worked. As simple as it is when seen in regular storytelling, it's crazy how effective it is when you have characters in wrestling that have a lot of detail put into them.
28:27 In essence, by not accepting the truth that the game presents, they actively engage with the antithesis of the game. The thesis being learning to accept oneself and facing the truth.
I had that problem growing up in Georgia in the 90s. I loved a lot of stuff that was "made" for boys as a little girl but everyone kept saying "You shouldn't like that you're a girl!" I also liked anime but it wasn't well-known yet so I really had no one to talk to about it. And As a Black girl a lot of what I liked was considered "White" So I had a lot of insecurities about the things I loved.
Even now guys give me the wide-eyed look every time I mention gaming or anime like I was an alien. Slowly I had to realize that I needed to accept myself first regardless of how others thought of me. That what made me stand out was great not a burden.
I love what I love. If others shared my interests that's great but if not that's fine too. I am me and that's great.
i can relate with you. i really liked boyish things even as a child. yeah i played with girly toys too but i liked masculine things more. i really liked anime as well! in my place playing games and watching anime is viewed as things only guys do so i get comments why i like this and that (just the other day too i got a comment why i liked a particular franchise that was meant for guys)
im glad that you accept yourself now. i wish you have a good day!
@@noname420 You too! You're not alone friend!
@@blackkitty369 thanks!
People like on Twitter are pretty much proving Ameno-sagiri right. These people are so desperate for representation that they become too hyperfocused for any clues or hint. Representation is a great thing to have but it's not a good thing to become obsessed over.
If you have a character you are close to like how I feel representated by Donnie from Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle as a fellow Autism, then thats great. Just let's not have it become our entire personality.
I think you do the main thing that most people on twitter fail to do: Give room for other interpretation and offer some benefit of the doubt when they make it.
The twitter mob will destroy anyone who focuses too much on the LGBT-coding scenes of Naoto and Kanji for various reasons (normally a combination of current-day values and some values dissonance with a teaspoon of the person playing is probably LGBT in some form) because they deem it 'incorrect' and 'missing the point' and are a hypocrite at worst or very ironic at best. But due to this, it's essentially creating two groups that hate each other, instead of one big connected group that stems from something like 'You're missing the MAIN point but it's good you picked up on this aspect too'.
Regardless of which side anyone on twitter defends, you shouldn't be willing to die for it, and of course no one should be jumping to assumptions on either side. The 'LGBT Coded' believes seem to jump to conclusions about kanji and naoto before even getting to their dungeons, but their detractors are just as guilty of jumping to conclusions about the concept of 'not knowing vs not listening' as this group all seem to just assume the former group is guilty of the second option every single time.
Or maybe they really do believe the things they are saying while at the same time not understadning and thus kinda proving Persona's 4 point about how Sometimes People don't try to understand others.
Claiming to speak for a group while at the same time not learning from or listening to said group seems to be twitter's stock and trade.
@@longislandicedtea6323 Hahaha. Isn't that the Auidence of twats.
That cough was an important moment. Thank you for sharing.
good video kamen! honestly, what more can i say other that i agree 100% with all your points. especially the part with Kanji. To me, he is a real man regardless of what he likes, he can stumble, but the bravery he shows is what i like.
Now if only there was a video like this for Chihiro Fujisaki
I don't know why people think Naoto is trans when her whole personal problem is not her identity but the insecurities of not being able to continue with the family heritage due to BEING a woman that is going to be underestimated due to sexism, and that's why she PRETENDS to be a male while also trying to look more adult, but then at the end she stops pretending and decides that she's gonna become a great detective without hiding who she is.
Fun fact I sorta relate to Kanji in a different way.
Not cause "gay man"
But... the fear of not being able to be myself. Even to this day I do that.
But... in my past... I avoided being shown as my true self too and got stamped as "Possible Gay"
I am not joking. I just have extreme emotions as someone with autism and love being kind, hugging and showing people appriciation but it always got seen as overbearing... I tended to cry alot and be too much in touch with my emotions, I also romantized having a girlfriend/wife being this one thing I should do right since too many do it wrong.
I avoided experimenting... and soon I was told to think how others percieve me and how they see my emotional state...
And.. yea... I still hold value that to some degree... you need to see things from other people's perspective.. but your own perspective matters just as much.
Now for the being perceieved gay.. since i was alot in my own world.. emotional... unconnected and showing my emotions strongly to boys and girls... wich apperently got me to hang with alot of girls back in my younger days as friends.. I got labeled as possible gay... not just by my classmates... but by my own parents.
Now my mom thought I was closeted and actually said... "It's okay to be gay..." When she said that.. I had a laughing fit... she kept triyng to say "It's okay to be gay.." and I am like "I am not, I understnad you accept it, but I am not mom"
But slowly... insted of wondering "If I was gay" I knew I wasn't gay... Inside my mind however... it started to dawn on me how my emotional self comes OFF as gay... or feminine. With the internet people who didn't know me thought I was female... I was flirted by closeted gay people of my age as well... Heck one guy actually came out of the closet to me and that was awkward, cause he said he loved me and wanted to date me...
So.. my "I want to date the right girl for me and find someone with the same gaming hobbies as me and passions." Became me being labeled as "GAY" and that's when i did something I regretted.
Insted of being true to myself... I decided to let girls into my life.. since some girls had a fancy for me. Normally i would avoid it cause: "I am not sure if they like a gamer like me.." and "If I was a terrible guy.." Heck... I somehow was able to win the heart of the "Rich girl" at school and I was like: "Wait this guy likes her alot, I think she's neat.." and bam I made them a couple.. good on me.
side tracking there...
But yea I had a low image of myself and the gay image ontop of it.. didn't help me.. so I started letting girls in to atleast WIPE this gay image from my list. THIS WAS A MISTAKE.
Not only was I unable to hold a relationship and build it up as people matchmaked me with girls (Since I did it for one guy as said earlier)
I decided to let girls date me... and most of these relations broke off in time. Even online ones... I tried so hard to make it work and make others work. So I let other people's happiness go 1st and that's another issue for me.. but I am happily married with my current wife so... my girl issues did end.
Also with girls dating me I don't mean I went on a date with them.. I meant I allowed them to flirt and hang with me and talk with em. But we couldn't find common grounds to start a basis... and online I could but it fell appart due to various other reasons. (Mostly since younger girls were interrested in me alot and it became creepy to me when I hit the age of 18...)
So now that I am married with my wife happily, gaming together, writing together, living together and such. I am now a happy man with some underlying issues i still work with to this day.
But that's how I can relate to Kanji's plea.. as well as Yukiko'ss. This image being put onto your face while it ain't there... trying to do your best for others but being seen as something else.
The best video/piece on this topic i have seen and as a fan of the franchise since 2013 (with Persona 4) I'm grateful this exists, especially with someone in the LGBT community at the forefront. In discourse and arguments online where Kanji and Naoto are mentioned, i sincerely hope this video is linked.
I honestly think people who push the narrative that Kanji is gay and that Naoto is trans as fact are just fetishizing those attributes.
Fantastic Video. Every so often when this stupid argument comes up in social media, I always get frustrated that people either did not play the game or let their interpretation get in the way of what actually happens in the game. Thank you for this piece, and helping me defend one of my favorite video games of all time. Cheers, earned a new fan.
Always love seeing a critique on my first ever Persona/SMT game.
This game holds a special place in my heart
29:53 "It's like a virus"
The memes... Getting rid of Twitter won't fix anything, society is already too far gone at this point.
Kamen when are you planing to talk about persona 3 in the channel
I would love to see your opinion about a game that i love so much
Agreed.
1 question though.
Original, FES, or Portable ? Or just all of the above ?
I tend to think the people that talk about Kanji being gay while completely ignoring that Yosuke is 100% in the closet weren't paying attention.
I personally think that the shadows you fight are warped versions of their persona's. People view them a certain way and it results in their persona's becoming monsters. Then when they accept themselves, it sheds off the public perception and becomes their true persona.
I've never made a super thanks, or whatever this counts as before, but this video is so good and on point. I appreciate it so much, and seeing the Twitter discourse kinda made me worried about the long term reputation of this game. Thank you again.
Thank you very much, you are the first Super Thanks I ever got :)
What interesting about Kanji that not may people like to talk about is that a lot of his Bullying came from Girls when he was younger. You see a lot of Women on Social Media trying to tell Men we need to "open up" and be "more sensitive", but at the same time will laugh at us for doing so, thus are the reason why we dont. A LOT of my Bullying as a Kid was from Girls and lead to me have a very bad self image of myself. I never even had my first Date until I was in my 20's, and it was the Girl who asked me out. My Wife is the only Woman I ever asked out and that was only because I was told she liked me.
My point in bringing this up is because I find it sad that the Focus on Kanji devolved into it just being about his Sexuality, and while it could be a talking point, it not all their is to discuss about his Character, nor the only way one can relate to him. Just another Victim of the Wests Culture Wars and Identity Politics.
I remember there was articles, videos and even WatchMojo did heavily focus on Kanji being Gay. And I believed it back then.
Seriously I hate when people take things out of Context. Context do Matters. But sadly it just Media Manipulation. Like the TV from Persona 4.
I remember one the bully kid from Ned's Declassified also have a hobby of as sewing and he hide it too. I think he open ups and admit his love for sewing In the show, it's been awhile since I saw Ned's declassified.
Kamen when you said about fears of being Reject and closing everyone out, it Reminds me of Shinji from Evangelion heck the show have Kaworu Nagisa. I didn't see the reboot movies, the movies was like a time loop or something?
I remember Casca from Berserk has it similar to Naoto. Casca also face the same issues for being a Woman in the Battlefield of Men. She even told Guts "I didn't ask to be a woman". And Casca has an arc of her being capable Warrior, Leader to save Griffith and as a Woman. She got that after her spending time with Guts.