In the 1970s and 1980s I worked for John Martz Luger Carbine maker from Lincoln, CA. I lived nearby in Auburn, CA at the time and had my own shop. I found that as time went it became more expensive to do the various jobs for John and try to pay the bills that I had to quit and go to work for a local machine shop. I miss the Luger Carbine work but like other stock work I've done it is a lot of precision and time consuming work. So, between making the stocks, parts and rust bluing, days can turn into months just trying to finish the work. Thank you Mark for this presentation on the cost of restoration of these old firearms.
(Mike C.) The decision to properly restore a vintage firearm should be approached as more of a commitment to history than just a project. We live in a small historic town in Arkansas with many examples of butchered building restorations. One notable exception is an old bakery that waited for a year to have custom period bricks made to restore their damaged storefront. If you want a shooter but don't want to spend the cash on a proper restoration, consider selling that original to a collector and use the money to buy yourself a good quality repro. Really appreciate the work you fellas are doing there Mark!
Thank you, Mark. Excellent video. As a carpenter, I also spend time educating people as to what is worth doing OR not doing and … how quickly money can be spent😁!
Mark, thanks for the video. I hope fewer people will question restoration costs now. Quality work is necessarily expensive. As you said, we should choose which gun gets that level of treatment. That’s how we can control costs, not by complaining about excellent work on heirloom pieces. Perry P., SoCal, CA
This was a great illustration of why quality work is expensive. For me it also answers the question "why can't they make 'em like they used to?" If manufacturers today produced the fine finish and fit of 100 years ago, when labor was a lot cheaper, we wouldn't be able to afford their products.
The general public has no understanding of what's involved in developing a a suitable finish. They want it shiney. They have no conception of the time, care & expense required to achieve an acceptable high polish. Generally, their background consists of using a wire wheel mounted on a grinder in their granddaddy's garage.
My first experience with properly hand polishing a firearm for bluing was at gunsmithing school and a real eye opener for me. I brought in a well-used and moderately pitted 1906 Winchester for that project. I started draw filing on Monday morning and barely had the polishing finished on Friday afternoon when it had to be in the bluing tanks.
Mark restored my dad’s Winchester 1886. Costly yes, but money well spent, rifle looks great and shoots great. It was still cheaper than buying a new lever action and no doubt an original Winchester beats any modern lever gun on the market (in my opinion at least)
What I learned today is that my daughter's boss got a good deal for a Winchester 1894 cleanup that was an absolute rust bucket. I only did it for my daughter. Thanks for the video!
Of course, it depends on whether it was a restoration to like new using period correct techniques or a modern refinish. The difference in price and quality of work are rather dramatic.
I really enjoyed your video. Restoration work is difficult because you have to duplicate many different finishes and operations that were done by many different craftsmen in the factories. Also those crafsmen didn't have to deal with rust pits and wood dings. I have always been impressed with the metal polishing done at the factories using felt, leather, and wooden wheels with hyde glued abrasives such as turkish emery. You will notice in your refinishing that the flat surfaces were not actually flat but they looked really good. Thanks for sharing the video.
You should probably have a surcharge for the amount of patience that goes into all this work. I'm left with the thought that not that much work went into original production back in the 1800s unless it was a presentation gun, and it seems that your restoration is not to original production but to a presentation gun condition. The key word though is restore, and getting a rough gun to just original production condition is a feat of magic. It's all very time consuming and the expense in just that is considerable. It is an endeavor borne of passion and that alone makes it worth the price.
Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Restoring these old firearms has to be a passion for the restorer in order to put in the time to study and fully understand how they were made in the first place and then go about acquiring the skills to recreate those processes. Labor was very inexpensive when these firearms were originally manufactured, so the firearms companies had the workers build these guns to extraordinary standards for fit and finish, even on the average run-of-mill firearms. When they were built, a craftsman who specialized in one portion of manufacturing would complete one part of the build and pass it onto another specialist and on down the line. Each firearm likely passed through the hands of a score of highly specialized craftsmen. In our little shop today, each of us has to be proficient in several of those processes. It's not difficult to refinish a firearm, but to restore one to original specs using original processes is a far more difficult and challenging endeavor. Thanks for recognizing that and mentioning it in your comment.
You hit on the reason why I won't take on anymore Smith work I'll do work on something of my own and I have a few friends that I'll do some work for but I don't have a shingle out for the public anymore even back in the day you always had the whiners about the cost of the job well they can do it thereselves and pay more to fix everything they screwed up and wrecked and I have bills to pay and once in awhile I like a little butter with my slice of bread it costs money to keep the doors open and the lights on@@thecinnabar8442
Beautiful work. I would be scared to death working in an environment like that, because I might scratch something or ding it. LOL! Enjoyed the video...
We definitely handle them with "kid gloves", but accidents still happen. Recently, I'd just finished with the final cycle of rust blue on a barrel. I wasn't paying attention and put a scratch in it while carding it off. It would have been covered by the forend, but that didn't matter. I knew it was there, so I had to start over.😒
Great video. As you said you can go as little to as far as you want on one of those beautiful old guns. And the amount of painstaking man hours involved add up. You have a team of very skilled craftsman that make all of this happen. People that maintain the skills to do these restorations are rare. And their time is worth something. As is yours, and the cost of the overhead to do the work that your shop does. As an amateur collector of old and new firearms, I am very hesitant to restore or change anything on my older firearms because I consider the "wear" on these guns part of their history. Part of their story. And at the end of the day, I am preserving their history. So that someday when they are passed on to their next guardian, they still have their history. I would certainly consider a restore on a firearm that is so far gone, that the history and value would not be harmed, but improved. You maintain that same passion. Restoring firearms that could benefit from a restore. And not touching others. And through your channel you teach and inspire all of us to have that same passion. Thank you. :) Jim Gillespie. Reno, NV
As I mentioned, I discourage restoration of firearm in good, original condition. The vast majority of the firearms we restore or refinish have had work done in the past, usually quite poorly done.
When I was in Italy in the later 1980s. I was in one pf the small factories in Brescia. They had an old American Arms .410 hammer double. They were restoring this gun for a judge. The price then was about $2,500. I thought was interesting as this was a reasonably cheap gun. The truth is when the gun was completed, it was completely rebuilt to a far higher quality gun than new. The owner said the judge just liked the gun and didn't really care about the price. This was a quality factory. They were making a [air of Boss type OUs that were about $12,000 each.
Great video thumbs up. (I have asked you this question before. Thank you for answering it.) Why do people say restore to the guns hurts the value of it? Thanks for sharing this video and prices.
Well, handwork costs a craftsman years to learn the craft. People must make a living, or you will not do this. I like the 1903 Steyr Mannlichers. I knew a Gunsmith in NH who wanted to make them again with modern steel. He told me he could do it at the time, but the rifles would cost between 6 and 8 thousand dollars. This was in the Early 1990's. It's all about hand fitting, machining, and the skill needed to do the work. Savage Arms will not make the 99 for the same reasons. Your prices are not that out of line. A proper restoration or the construction of a fine rifle or a shotgun is not a bargain basement endeavor. Nor should it be. I like fine guns, but I am on well a beer budget.
(Mike C.) 100% correct about the Savage 99! At a gun show I asked a rep from Savage "so when you guys gonna start making 99s again". He said "we would love to make the 99 again but it would cost so much to make them they wouldn't sell"!
That is some beautiful work coming from this shop. However, my thought on restoration is an item being returned to its original condition. I've never seen an original firearm in perfect original condition, but I can't imagine when new, that any of these guns looked as good as they do coming from this shop.
Actually, they did. Labor was cheap when these firearms were manufactured and most laborers took exceptional pride in their craft. I'm always amazed when I visit the local Cody Firearms Museum and see pristine examples of these firearms. I spent several hours at the museum yesterday just marveling at the workmanship. They set the bar very high to try to match the factory quality for fit and finish.
I build flintlock rifles. Draw filing the barrels to get rid of the machine marks is a lot o work. Doing a receiver with all the nooks and crannies has to be a major load of work. Your prices, while in the "ouch" range are not out of line for the work involved. I don't work for free and wouldn't expect another man to do so either. Thanks for sharing.
We're on the low end of prices for those who do these higher end restorations. We work hard to keep our prices as affordable as possible. There are others who charge markedly more for their work.
@@thecinnabar8442 I fully support what you're charging. I know what is involved in doing the inletting, carving, engraving and finish work for building flintlock rifles. While a labor of love, it is not fair for one person to ask another to work for free. Looking forward to seeing the finished Colt Lightening.
Yes, we did. We've been operating for about a month. We're still doing a lot of color case hardening and rifle builds as they did in the past, but we're also taking on more restoration work like this.
Why on earth with all the modern techniques and machines cant wood furniture producers make pieces that fit 1:1.......I mean wenn i buy stocks in the US sometimes i think,that piece of wood i trew in the stove looks more and probaly fits better then the stock that what i just unpacked...
Because every gun is different and the wood has to be fit by hand if you want it to fit the way it should. You can pull a stock off one vintage 1873 that fits perfectly and put it on another vintage 1873 and it won't fit worth a darn. You can't possibly get the degree of fit that was achieved by the craftsmen of the 19th century by machine. It's a painstakingly slow process only achieved by skilled craftsmen. Not all makers of semi-inlet stocks are remotely equal in the quality of their work either. There are stock makers who make very good stocks and there are those who make junk. You can't lump all American stock makers in one category just because you've had a bad experience.
I've been told by a customer that a well-known shop on the East Coast quoted him $8,500 for a similar restoration. Hint - that shop used to belong to its namesake, Doug Turnbull. We're trying hard to make the cost of these restorations as reasonable as possible.
In the 1970s and 1980s I worked for John Martz Luger Carbine maker from Lincoln, CA. I lived nearby in Auburn, CA at the time and had my own shop. I found that as time went it became more expensive to do the various jobs for John and try to pay the bills that I had to quit and go to work for a local machine shop. I miss the Luger Carbine work but like other stock work I've done it is a lot of precision and time consuming work. So, between making the stocks, parts and rust bluing, days can turn into months just trying to finish the work.
Thank you Mark for this presentation on the cost of restoration of these old firearms.
You're very welcome, Cameron. It sounds like you've walked the walk.
Mark you hit it on the head when you say you get what you pay for. Quality ain’t cheap.. love the videos brother
Good Work Ain’t Cheap and Cheap Work Ain’t Good Is The Philosophy I Go By 😊😀😊👍🏼 Mark Your Spot On 😀
(Mike C.) The decision to properly restore a vintage firearm should be approached as more of a commitment to history than just a project. We live in a small historic town in Arkansas with many examples of butchered building restorations. One notable exception is an old bakery that waited for a year to have custom period bricks made to restore their damaged storefront. If you want a shooter but don't want to spend the cash on a proper restoration, consider selling that original to a collector and use the money to buy yourself a good quality repro. Really appreciate the work you fellas are doing there Mark!
Thank you, Mark. Excellent video. As a carpenter, I also spend time educating people as to what is worth doing OR not doing and … how quickly money can be spent😁!
Mark, thanks for the video. I hope fewer people will question restoration costs now. Quality work is necessarily expensive. As you said, we should choose which gun gets that level of treatment. That’s how we can control costs, not by complaining about excellent work on heirloom pieces. Perry P., SoCal, CA
Mark speaks the honest truth. You can't dispute the truth. I admire that!
This was a great illustration of why quality work is expensive. For me it also answers the question "why can't they make 'em like they used to?" If manufacturers today produced the fine finish and fit of 100 years ago, when labor was a lot cheaper, we wouldn't be able to afford their products.
The general public has no understanding of what's involved in developing a a suitable finish. They want it shiney. They have no conception of the time, care & expense required to achieve an acceptable high polish. Generally, their background consists of using a wire wheel mounted on a grinder in their granddaddy's garage.
My first experience with properly hand polishing a firearm for bluing was at gunsmithing school and a real eye opener for me. I brought in a well-used and moderately pitted 1906 Winchester for that project. I started draw filing on Monday morning and barely had the polishing finished on Friday afternoon when it had to be in the bluing tanks.
I have restored a few firearms myself and they came out fine for me but it is a lot of work to do it right. Also you have to make the customer happy.
Mark restored my dad’s Winchester 1886. Costly yes, but money well spent, rifle looks great and shoots great. It was still cheaper than buying a new lever action and no doubt an original Winchester beats any modern lever gun on the market (in my opinion at least)
Never apologize for doing a job right!
What I learned today is that my daughter's boss got a good deal for a Winchester 1894 cleanup that was an absolute rust bucket. I only did it for my daughter. Thanks for the video!
Of course, it depends on whether it was a restoration to like new using period correct techniques or a modern refinish. The difference in price and quality of work are rather dramatic.
We piss and moan that craftsmanship is a lost art.
It's still out there, but it ain't cheap. It is well worth the price though.
Thank you skilled ones..Tis' a dying art!
Time is money as is quality 🙌
i love your work my friend , i enjoy all your presentations cheers big ears from down under
Thank you for the great talk
Thanks for taking the time to explain the process, it's much appreciated!
You're very welcome, Jeff!
True craftsmanship ! Much respect
I really enjoyed your video. Restoration work is difficult because you have to duplicate many different finishes and operations that were done by many different craftsmen in the factories. Also those crafsmen didn't have to deal with rust pits and wood dings. I have always been impressed with the metal polishing done at the factories using felt, leather, and wooden wheels with hyde glued abrasives such as turkish emery. You will notice in your refinishing that the flat surfaces were not actually flat but they looked really good. Thanks for sharing the video.
You should probably have a surcharge for the amount of patience that goes into all this work. I'm left with the thought that not that much work went into original production back in the 1800s unless it was a presentation gun, and it seems that your restoration is not to original production but to a presentation gun condition. The key word though is restore, and getting a rough gun to just original production condition is a feat of magic. It's all very time consuming and the expense in just that is considerable. It is an endeavor borne of passion and that alone makes it worth the price.
Thanks a bunch for your thoughts. Restoring these old firearms has to be a passion for the restorer in order to put in the time to study and fully understand how they were made in the first place and then go about acquiring the skills to recreate those processes.
Labor was very inexpensive when these firearms were originally manufactured, so the firearms companies had the workers build these guns to extraordinary standards for fit and finish, even on the average run-of-mill firearms.
When they were built, a craftsman who specialized in one portion of manufacturing would complete one part of the build and pass it onto another specialist and on down the line. Each firearm likely passed through the hands of a score of highly specialized craftsmen. In our little shop today, each of us has to be proficient in several of those processes.
It's not difficult to refinish a firearm, but to restore one to original specs using original processes is a far more difficult and challenging endeavor. Thanks for recognizing that and mentioning it in your comment.
You hit on the reason why I won't take on anymore Smith work I'll do work on something of my own and I have a few friends that I'll do some work for but I don't have a shingle out for the public anymore even back in the day you always had the whiners about the cost of the job well they can do it thereselves and pay more to fix everything they screwed up and wrecked and I have bills to pay and once in awhile I like a little butter with my slice of bread it costs money to keep the doors open and the lights on@@thecinnabar8442
Thanks Mark. Good information.
Thank you Mark very informative vid. For a task totally underestimated.
Great information! Beautiful CCH ! 👍🏽😀❤️🇺🇸
Beautiful work. I would be scared to death working in an environment like that, because I might scratch something or ding it. LOL! Enjoyed the video...
We definitely handle them with "kid gloves", but accidents still happen. Recently, I'd just finished with the final cycle of rust blue on a barrel. I wasn't paying attention and put a scratch in it while carding it off. It would have been covered by the forend, but that didn't matter. I knew it was there, so I had to start over.😒
Great vidio sir loved every minute of it thank you
That’s a tough business Mark, a labor of love. Your a super guy, love your videos and your ranch.
Thanks a bunch!
Great video, Mark most folks haven't a clue the time and attention to the 22:36 detail. Wonderful
Agreed! We're very fortunate to have such an experienced and talented stock fitter in the shop.
Great video. As you said you can go as little to as far as you want on one of those beautiful old guns. And the amount of painstaking man hours involved add up. You have a team of very skilled craftsman that make all of this happen. People that maintain the skills to do these restorations are rare. And their time is worth something. As is yours, and the cost of the overhead to do the work that your shop does. As an amateur collector of old and new firearms, I am very hesitant to restore or change anything on my older firearms because I consider the "wear" on these guns part of their history. Part of their story. And at the end of the day, I am preserving their history. So that someday when they are passed on to their next guardian, they still have their history. I would certainly consider a restore on a firearm that is so far gone, that the history and value would not be harmed, but improved. You maintain that same passion. Restoring firearms that could benefit from a restore. And not touching others. And through your channel you teach and inspire all of us to have that same passion. Thank you. :) Jim Gillespie. Reno, NV
As I mentioned, I discourage restoration of firearm in good, original condition. The vast majority of the firearms we restore or refinish have had work done in the past, usually quite poorly done.
When I was in Italy in the later 1980s. I was in one pf the small factories in Brescia. They had an old American Arms .410 hammer double. They were restoring this gun for a judge. The price then was about $2,500. I thought was interesting as this was a reasonably cheap gun. The truth is when the gun was completed, it was completely rebuilt to a far higher quality gun than new. The owner said the judge just liked the gun and didn't really care about the price. This was a quality factory. They were making a [air of Boss type OUs that were about $12,000 each.
Thanks Mark on......Why Does It Cost So Much To Restore a Firearm.......
Old F-4 II Shoe🇺🇸
Great video thumbs up. (I have asked you this question before. Thank you for answering it.) Why do people say restore to the guns hurts the value of it? Thanks for sharing this video and prices.
Well, handwork costs a craftsman years to learn the craft. People must make a living, or you will not do this. I like the 1903 Steyr Mannlichers. I knew a Gunsmith in NH who wanted to make them again with modern steel. He told me he could do it at the time, but the rifles would cost between 6 and 8 thousand dollars. This was in the Early 1990's. It's all about hand fitting, machining, and the skill needed to do the work. Savage Arms will not make the 99 for the same reasons. Your prices are not that out of line. A proper restoration or the construction of a fine rifle or a shotgun is not a bargain basement endeavor. Nor should it be. I like fine guns, but I am on well a beer budget.
(Mike C.) 100% correct about the Savage 99! At a gun show I asked a rep from Savage "so when you guys gonna start making 99s again". He said "we would love to make the 99 again but it would cost so much to make them they wouldn't sell"!
going to come visit you guys ... and check out the firearms museum there ..
We'll look forward to your visit.
That is some beautiful work coming from this shop. However, my thought on restoration is an item being returned to its original condition. I've never seen an original firearm in perfect original condition, but I can't imagine when new, that any of these guns looked as good as they do coming from this shop.
Actually, they did. Labor was cheap when these firearms were manufactured and most laborers took exceptional pride in their craft. I'm always amazed when I visit the local Cody Firearms Museum and see pristine examples of these firearms. I spent several hours at the museum yesterday just marveling at the workmanship. They set the bar very high to try to match the factory quality for fit and finish.
I build flintlock rifles. Draw filing the barrels to get rid of the machine marks is a lot o work. Doing a receiver with all the nooks and crannies has to be a major load of work. Your prices, while in the "ouch" range are not out of line for the work involved. I don't work for free and wouldn't expect another man to do so either. Thanks for sharing.
We're on the low end of prices for those who do these higher end restorations. We work hard to keep our prices as affordable as possible. There are others who charge markedly more for their work.
@@thecinnabar8442 I fully support what you're charging. I know what is involved in doing the inletting, carving, engraving and finish work for building flintlock rifles. While a labor of love, it is not fair for one person to ask another to work for free. Looking forward to seeing the finished Colt Lightening.
Thanks Jeff! I'm having fun with that Lightning project.
Micro welding tig or laser might be helpful on deep rust pits.
Yes, and we offer that service. It helps on individual deep pits or gouges, but not so much on widespread shallow pits and dings.
Have a 1892 needs a new barrel
Would you like to do this?
We'd be happy to talk to you about barreling your 1892. You can find our contact information on our website: WyomingArmory.com
We are paying for knowledge and skills the fact that is not a wall hanger all care must be taken
Did you buy the Wyoming gunshop? Thanks
Yes, we did. We've been operating for about a month. We're still doing a lot of color case hardening and rifle builds as they did in the past, but we're also taking on more restoration work like this.
@thecinnabar8442 im happy for you and following your heart...goodluck boss!
I'm about to start one tomorrow a friend wants me to do I don't know how he made a twenty Year old gun look a hundred but here we go
Best of Luck!
Why on earth with all the modern techniques and machines cant wood furniture producers make pieces that fit 1:1.......I mean wenn i buy stocks in the US sometimes i think,that piece of wood i trew in the stove looks more and probaly fits better then the stock that what i just unpacked...
Because every gun is different and the wood has to be fit by hand if you want it to fit the way it should. You can pull a stock off one vintage 1873 that fits perfectly and put it on another vintage 1873 and it won't fit worth a darn. You can't possibly get the degree of fit that was achieved by the craftsmen of the 19th century by machine. It's a painstakingly slow process only achieved by skilled craftsmen.
Not all makers of semi-inlet stocks are remotely equal in the quality of their work either. There are stock makers who make very good stocks and there are those who make junk. You can't lump all American stock makers in one category just because you've had a bad experience.
can a person contact you!! I have a old colt i would like it repaired and will gladly pay !!!
You bet. Our contact information is on our website: www.wyomingarmory.com/
they have a contact form on their website
I was guessing 4 k
I've been told by a customer that a well-known shop on the East Coast quoted him $8,500 for a similar restoration. Hint - that shop used to belong to its namesake, Doug Turnbull. We're trying hard to make the cost of these restorations as reasonable as possible.