When both chain saw and finger snap spin serves were banned, I kept reading comments regarding about how they are very similar to inital tennis table illegal serve which is the "pre spun" serve. Both sports kind of allowed it in their early stages because the equipment were standard and practically everyone was using the same paddle. With technology kicking in table tennis, spin serves practically made it insanely difficult to return the ball where you don't get burned. In pickleball with a bigger court and spinnier paddles coming in, it's practically the same with table tennis illegal serve but worse since you have to run for the ball. The argument that the serving team has the disadvantage practically leaves the "skill gap" to technology when it comes to prespun serves. I think everyone can agree that if virtually all the pros really learned how to Morgan Evans serve, then pickleball might as well cease to exist.
Honestly, I feel like pickleball is trying to be taken more seriously nowadays, and spinning serve and doing tricks with the ball is making it more of a freak show than something to be taken seriously.
Isn’t it telling that the two players with the arguably best spin serves (Zane/evans) aren’t really dominant after the rule change? I saw rec players who were nothing but a server, e.g. their serve was 4.5, but the rest of their game was 3.0 at best. Sure, I got to the point where I could tell what they were doing by asking my partner who was closer to the server to tell me how he was holding the ball but that got tedious really fast. And I also saw a lot of people get pretty disheartened going up against someone who was all serve & nothing else.
Of course it will. The whole reason why the sport is exploding is because it caters to unathletic people who can’t play tennis, and this is yet another decision to keep it that way.
really? because the serve is currently illegal and the sport continues to grow at an alarming rate. so.... you literally contradicted yourself you moron. making the sport harder and making the serve LEGAL will stunt the growth of pickleball because less people will actually return a ball with a ton of spin, making the serve illegal will help it grow because it caters to the less skilled. @@ScottRizzo
Great move banning the spin serve. The point of the game is not the serve. Trying to cheese the game with the serve defeats the original intention of the game.
I hated any and every variation of the spin serve. Was beating a team during a tournament and the other guy whipped out the chainsaw serve and we couldn't return anything, they won and took us out of contention even though we were the more talented team. I hate gimmicks like these.
Personally, I understand why the ban occurred. But definitely, the wrong reasons were stated; does it give an inherent weapon to something that "shouldn't have become one"? Yes. Is it game-breaking? No, not at all. I've learned to hit effective Chainsaw & One-Handed Spin Serves. My goal never was to Ace players with them, I expected them to be shallowly returned 85% of the time, and the other 15% to come back very deep WITH my spin attached & amplified to it. I see it as simply an extension of the game. People CAN learn how to return it, EVEN IF they decide to Not learn that serve. The question being at that point, who was willing to put in the effort to predict & learn that at the very minimum. The serve is now a weapon AGAIN and arguably to the same effectiveness as the Spin Serve in general. Singles & Doubles wise! You can STILL Ace with the serve! What's next? They decide to rule change the serve ONLY being XX MPH? To me, it feels like (almost) any innovation gets snuffed out as soon as it becomes popular. I'd personally LOVE to see the Spin Serve come back. It will take time for everybody to adjust to it, but it can be returned. It can be learned to utilize. The main question is, who's willing to put in that effort?
You make very good points. I agree that the spin serves could easily be just another part of the game. A difficult shot for players to learn, like the 3rd shot drop. Similar to the curveball in baseball. Players would adapt. However, the other service rules are difficult to implement anyway and unenforceable in non-officiated matches. For maximum fairness, banning the volley serve and only allowing drop serves would be the only option (though I would hate that).
@robsutton3092 fair point on the 'unenforceable' serve rules, though I'd argue that most individuals playing the game can enforce it within locals. And the hard-core players training for tourneys will SURELY call things out. Drop serves are great for beginners to learn. And even some Pros use it (Devidze is one example). It truly suck of the volley serve was banned, because then it would feel as if we're truly regressing the game at that point.
@@halohawkxxYou’re right about certain folks or locales enforcing the service rules. The only remaining issue is the difficulty of actually seeing if the elements of your opponent’s serve are being met. Some illegal serves are obvious, but some are not. That’s due to distance away, poor eyesight, speed of the service motion, etc. As an amateur, the most I will do if I suspect an illegal serve is mention it after a match (unless it is a blatant overhead tennis serve).
@robsutton3092 yeah, that'll do it. Honestly rec games are fine as is right now; it will be a little harder to enforce during tourneys where we don't have Referees until the Medal Matches (Amateur wise). But those are things that can be fixed over time. I think if the Spin Serve came back; it'll be a gradual return.
Not a pickleball player but a tennis player. However, it would seem crazy to me in tennis to ask for a serve to be banned simply because I had trouble returning it. What I should do is learn how to defend against it and learn how to use it myself.
@@networth00 "intended"? What part of the game is "intended" to be a weapon? Next thing they will increase the size of the kitchen area to prevent soft serves.
@@justlooking7168 The return is the weapon, or the 3rd shot drop. If the serve was meant to be a weapon it would be overhand. Hope that clears it up for you.
@@networth00 I respectfully disagree. I think a game set its rules and it up to the players to decide what part of the game to "weaponize" (offensive is a better word) and what to be defensive. My opinion...the rule is underhand serves...what you do with the ball prior to hitting it underhand is up to you. I play with people who put really good spin on the ball if you give the right return. Do take away any type of spin shots? Some guys I play with do a backhand serves that put a very nasty curve on it. Should they be restricted?
@@networth00 I believe it developed into a weapon over time rather than that being it's original intent. it was an evolution in the sport. Shouldn't pickleball also evolve?
One doesn't develops a spin serve overnight. You have to work on it. It's like any other skill I mean will they ban Ben Johns from using a backhand roll because he is best at it? It sucked when they banned it because I myself worked hard to develop it and then it was gone in the blink of an eye. How is it an unfair advantage when everyone can do it/develop it
I started pickleball in Q3 of 2022 and didn't come across a single spin serve in person. Maybe it existed in 4.0+ circles but I think it was overblown at the more recreational level (3.5 and under).
Big proponent for keeping illegal (Not allowed). These new paddles that can generate 2000+ RPM’s and 50-57 MPH would be insane. Morgan, Zane and others did not have paddles that could do this in the prime days of the spin serve. Thermoformed, 700 torre nano carbon fiber face, on and on. Paddles are getting so ridiculous. Why gate keep on a game that is known for being so inviting and natural to play for all? Allowing a spin serve nowadays would not help the sport grow- it would shrink it. Let’s keep the rules simple and not exploitive. No cheap gimmicks- play strait up. You can still spin the ball once the point gets going.
Spin is a natural part of any racquet sport. Serving advantages are also an advantage in most if not all racquet sports. I see the spin serve in pickle the same way I see it in table tennis: a skill that raises the skill ceiling and excitement of the sport.
It's idiotic to ever consider bringing back the finger spin serve to pickleball. With its ban, players now have to use their actually playing skill, one of which is to learn to impart spins from the contact of the paddle's surface with the ball, and NOT by spinning with one's fingers. Table tennis precedes pickleball by many decades or even close to a century, and they got it right by making all servers hold the ball with an open-hand. Pickleball would be a big gigantic joke if the finger spin serve is allowed once again. I'll quit pickleball without hesitation :)
i think all hand serve spins are banned on 2023: the updated USA Pickleball rule book will forbid applying any spin or manipulation of the ball from one hand, prior to striking it with the paddle.
I think if a person is seemingly serving illegally the other team should be able to request them to do a drop serve. A lot of people serve with the ball way too high and at the side like a normal forehand. Needs to be clearly underhand.
I think that the rules governing the serve should be consistent. A drop serve does not allow throwing the ball up or down. The spin serve should not be allowed to throw the ball up or down. Every spin serve I have seen propels the ball up and should be illegal because of propelling the ball up.
Both volley and drop serves have their advantages and disadvantages. Drop serves allow the player to manipulate the paddle in any way they want since the 3 rules for volley serves don't apply.
I haven’t been playing that long but to think that you could put artificial spin on the ball is wild. Logically I would think it would be the same as ping-pong
Serve should be offensive a bit but the spin serve doesn’t make any sense. You can’t do that in other sports. However a lot of people don’t serve underhand enough and it’s hard to enforce that rule.
@@mattgross1143 The pros don't. I played tennis for years and I would spin the ball on my serves to make the ball be unpredictable. If you spin it one way the ball would drop like a top spin. If you spin the opposite way it would kick up. If you spin it and hit down on the ball it would bonce back toward the net instead of forward. My favorite was spinning the ball and slicing it...the ball would bounce to my opponent right side and dive down. Bottom-line spinning the ball prior to hit it is allowed in tennis.
I'll do you one better, you know those training paddles that Franklin and other companies made? We should do a tourney randomly with ONLY those paddles & see who truly comes out on top!
@@halohawkxxI played table tennis and occasionally someone would challenge me playing with wooden paddles at the rec level. It was tough. I was being facetious though early.
I still miss the spin serve. It just add another element in the game. It is sad to see that this decision has been made by and for elderly people rather than thinking about growing the sport.
I don’t blame you for thinking this, but I do think that adding spin without the paddle ruins the whole point of being a “Racket sport.” I also feel that since the serving team is the only team that can score points, it’s unfair that they can hit an almost impossible serve to return and win free points by using a gimmick instead of skill. I understand that people thinks it “stuns the growth” of the sport, but I believe that it would be much harder for amateurs of all ages to deal with it.
I couldn’t do a very good spin serve. I had a couple players I play with do it well. I liked the challenge it took to try and return the serve. Just like I like the challenge of the players that can serve really hard/fast and deep.
One thing to consider is the possibility that international rules may differ on banning the spin serve. This might create a situation where, for instance, to keep up with the East Germans (😂) who allow spin serves (hypothetically), U.S. rules would change to allow it again in order for American players to better compete on an international stage. In my opinion, the spin serves should not have been banned unless they were being used against me in a match.
I was playing for years when it got popular, and it was such a bs shot because you were able to add incredible amounts of spin with your hand that you weren’t able to do with the paddle. It just seemed like a cheap shot and not in line with the spirit of the game
When both chain saw and finger snap spin serves were banned, I kept reading comments regarding about how they are very similar to inital tennis table illegal serve which is the "pre spun" serve. Both sports kind of allowed it in their early stages because the equipment were standard and practically everyone was using the same paddle. With technology kicking in table tennis, spin serves practically made it insanely difficult to return the ball where you don't get burned. In pickleball with a bigger court and spinnier paddles coming in, it's practically the same with table tennis illegal serve but worse since you have to run for the ball. The argument that the serving team has the disadvantage practically leaves the "skill gap" to technology when it comes to prespun serves. I think everyone can agree that if virtually all the pros really learned how to Morgan Evans serve, then pickleball might as well cease to exist.
I think its the right move to ban manipulating the ball, you can still serve an effective spin serve without having to manipulate the ball.
yeah, get rid of the second hand pre-spin, but spin serve should be legal...total joke if it isn't
Honestly, I feel like pickleball is trying to be taken more seriously nowadays, and spinning serve and doing tricks with the ball is making it more of a freak show than something to be taken seriously.
I miss the days of the spin serve. So much fun returning it and doing it. Should have given it at least another year
the game is run by wussies for wussies. I don't think they have such a silly rule in Padel yet, but it's hard to find in USA.
Isn’t it telling that the two players with the arguably best spin serves (Zane/evans) aren’t really dominant after the rule change? I saw rec players who were nothing but a server, e.g. their serve was 4.5, but the rest of their game was 3.0 at best. Sure, I got to the point where I could tell what they were doing by asking my partner who was closer to the server to tell me how he was holding the ball but that got tedious really fast. And I also saw a lot of people get pretty disheartened going up against someone who was all serve & nothing else.
Sounds like a skill issue
Making the serve illegal isn’t gonna stunt the growth of Pickleball lol
Of course it will. The whole reason why the sport is exploding is because it caters to unathletic people who can’t play tennis, and this is yet another decision to keep it that way.
really? because the serve is currently illegal and the sport continues to grow at an alarming rate. so.... you literally contradicted yourself you moron. making the sport harder and making the serve LEGAL will stunt the growth of pickleball because less people will actually return a ball with a ton of spin, making the serve illegal will help it grow because it caters to the less skilled.
@@ScottRizzo
Great move banning the spin serve. The point of the game is not the serve. Trying to cheese the game with the serve defeats the original intention of the game.
With paddles getting way more grittier increase spin, nowadays, the serve would be super hectic.
I hated any and every variation of the spin serve. Was beating a team during a tournament and the other guy whipped out the chainsaw serve and we couldn't return anything, they won and took us out of contention even though we were the more talented team. I hate gimmicks like these.
Personally, I understand why the ban occurred. But definitely, the wrong reasons were stated; does it give an inherent weapon to something that "shouldn't have become one"? Yes.
Is it game-breaking? No, not at all. I've learned to hit effective Chainsaw & One-Handed Spin Serves. My goal never was to Ace players with them, I expected them to be shallowly returned 85% of the time, and the other 15% to come back very deep WITH my spin attached & amplified to it.
I see it as simply an extension of the game. People CAN learn how to return it, EVEN IF they decide to Not learn that serve. The question being at that point, who was willing to put in the effort to predict & learn that at the very minimum.
The serve is now a weapon AGAIN and arguably to the same effectiveness as the Spin Serve in general. Singles & Doubles wise! You can STILL Ace with the serve! What's next? They decide to rule change the serve ONLY being XX MPH? To me, it feels like (almost) any innovation gets snuffed out as soon as it becomes popular.
I'd personally LOVE to see the Spin Serve come back. It will take time for everybody to adjust to it, but it can be returned. It can be learned to utilize. The main question is, who's willing to put in that effort?
You make very good points. I agree that the spin serves could easily be just another part of the game. A difficult shot for players to learn, like the 3rd shot drop. Similar to the curveball in baseball. Players would adapt. However, the other service rules are difficult to implement anyway and unenforceable in non-officiated matches. For maximum fairness, banning the volley serve and only allowing drop serves would be the only option (though I would hate that).
@robsutton3092 fair point on the 'unenforceable' serve rules, though I'd argue that most individuals playing the game can enforce it within locals. And the hard-core players training for tourneys will SURELY call things out.
Drop serves are great for beginners to learn. And even some Pros use it (Devidze is one example). It truly suck of the volley serve was banned, because then it would feel as if we're truly regressing the game at that point.
@@halohawkxxYou’re right about certain folks or locales enforcing the service rules. The only remaining issue is the difficulty of actually seeing if the elements of your opponent’s serve are being met. Some illegal serves are obvious, but some are not. That’s due to distance away, poor eyesight, speed of the service motion, etc. As an amateur, the most I will do if I suspect an illegal serve is mention it after a match (unless it is a blatant overhead tennis serve).
@robsutton3092 yeah, that'll do it. Honestly rec games are fine as is right now; it will be a little harder to enforce during tourneys where we don't have Referees until the Medal Matches (Amateur wise).
But those are things that can be fixed over time. I think if the Spin Serve came back; it'll be a gradual return.
Should be like table tannis. You can’t manipulate the ball. Use the paddle and learn different serves and where to place them.
When Is Fifth Shot Media gonna come back? Best pickleball news in the game. Hope to see it again soon.
Thanks bro. Might be making a comeback in a different direction
Not a pickleball player but a tennis player. However, it would seem crazy to me in tennis to ask for a serve to be banned simply because I had trouble returning it. What I should do is learn how to defend against it and learn how to use it myself.
The pickleball serve was never intended to be a weapon. The tennis serve is.
@@networth00 "intended"? What part of the game is "intended" to be a weapon? Next thing they will increase the size of the kitchen area to prevent soft serves.
@@justlooking7168 The return is the weapon, or the 3rd shot drop. If the serve was meant to be a weapon it would be overhand. Hope that clears it up for you.
@@networth00 I respectfully disagree. I think a game set its rules and it up to the players to decide what part of the game to "weaponize" (offensive is a better word) and what to be defensive. My opinion...the rule is underhand serves...what you do with the ball prior to hitting it underhand is up to you. I play with people who put really good spin on the ball if you give the right return. Do take away any type of spin shots? Some guys I play with do a backhand serves that put a very nasty curve on it. Should they be restricted?
@@networth00 I believe it developed into a weapon over time rather than that being it's original intent. it was an evolution in the sport. Shouldn't pickleball also evolve?
Allowing spin serve is like allowing overhead serve. Not going to happen right?
One doesn't develops a spin serve overnight. You have to work on it. It's like any other skill
I mean will they ban Ben Johns from using a backhand roll because he is best at it?
It sucked when they banned it because I myself worked hard to develop it and then it was gone in the blink of an eye. How is it an unfair advantage when everyone can do it/develop it
NO
Make all serves a drop serve
I started pickleball in Q3 of 2022 and didn't come across a single spin serve in person. Maybe it existed in 4.0+ circles but I think it was overblown at the more recreational level (3.5 and under).
Reminds me of the Movie 'Balls of Fury" type stuff lmao
Because of all the pickleball pre-spun serves, badminton had its own version of pre-spun serves got banned.
Erm...I'm still confused about what is and isn't a legal serve. Am I right in thinking you can do whatever you like so long as it bounces?
Big proponent for keeping illegal (Not allowed). These new paddles that can generate 2000+ RPM’s and 50-57 MPH would be insane. Morgan, Zane and others did not have paddles that could do this in the prime days of the spin serve. Thermoformed, 700 torre nano carbon fiber face, on and on. Paddles are getting so ridiculous.
Why gate keep on a game that is known for being so inviting and natural to play for all? Allowing a spin serve nowadays would not help the sport grow- it would shrink it. Let’s keep the rules simple and not exploitive. No cheap gimmicks- play strait up. You can still spin the ball once the point gets going.
You can still do a wicked spin serve if you do a drop serve. I do drop serves and can do a lot of different things. Does anyone else drop serve?
Spin is a natural part of any racquet sport. Serving advantages are also an advantage in most if not all racquet sports. I see the spin serve in pickle the same way I see it in table tennis: a skill that raises the skill ceiling and excitement of the sport.
It's idiotic to ever consider bringing back the finger spin serve to pickleball. With its ban, players now have to use their actually playing skill, one of which is to learn to impart spins from the contact of the paddle's surface with the ball, and NOT by spinning with one's fingers. Table tennis precedes pickleball by many decades or even close to a century, and they got it right by making all servers hold the ball with an open-hand. Pickleball would be a big gigantic joke if the finger spin serve is allowed once again. I'll quit pickleball without hesitation :)
i think all hand serve spins are banned on 2023:
the updated USA Pickleball rule book will forbid applying any spin or manipulation of the ball from one hand, prior to striking it with the paddle.
yes bring it back
No steve kuhn resignation news?
Is there any truth to a 2024 rule change which only allows drop serves?
I think if a person is seemingly serving illegally the other team should be able to request them to do a drop serve. A lot of people serve with the ball way too high and at the side like a normal forehand. Needs to be clearly underhand.
There’s a reason table tennis serves are tossed with an open palm.
The best thing is to have several serves and not do the same one all game. Or use certain ones depending how the other players are returning the ball.
I think that the rules governing the serve should be consistent. A drop serve does not allow throwing the ball up or down. The spin serve should not be allowed to throw the ball up or down. Every spin serve I have seen propels the ball up and should be illegal because of propelling the ball up.
Both volley and drop serves have their advantages and disadvantages. Drop serves allow the player to manipulate the paddle in any way they want since the 3 rules for volley serves don't apply.
I haven’t been playing that long but to think that you could put artificial spin on the ball is wild. Logically I would think it would be the same as ping-pong
Serve should be offensive a bit but the spin serve doesn’t make any sense. You can’t do that in other sports. However a lot of people don’t serve underhand enough and it’s hard to enforce that rule.
Tennis allow you to spin the ball.
@@justlooking7168 what do you mean? They don’t spin the ball with their hand. Not in any meaningful way.
@@mattgross1143 The pros don't. I played tennis for years and I would spin the ball on my serves to make the ball be unpredictable. If you spin it one way the ball would drop like a top spin. If you spin the opposite way it would kick up. If you spin it and hit down on the ball it would bonce back toward the net instead of forward. My favorite was spinning the ball and slicing it...the ball would bounce to my opponent right side and dive down. Bottom-line spinning the ball prior to hit it is allowed in tennis.
@@justlooking7168 gotcha.
in table tennis, their serves have CRAZY spin. and players have adapted. this is stunting pickle ball…
Right now, nobody is sure what a legal serve is.
Should only be allowed to play with wooden paddles, like in the beginning. Let’s keep the game pure.
I'll do you one better, you know those training paddles that Franklin and other companies made? We should do a tourney randomly with ONLY those paddles & see who truly comes out on top!
@@halohawkxxI played table tennis and occasionally someone would challenge me playing with wooden paddles at the rec level. It was tough.
I was being facetious though early.
That's paddle tennis, not pickleball.
I still miss the spin serve. It just add another element in the game. It is sad to see that this decision has been made by and for elderly people rather than thinking about growing the sport.
I don’t blame you for thinking this, but I do think that adding spin without the paddle ruins the whole point of being a “Racket sport.” I also feel that since the serving team is the only team that can score points, it’s unfair that they can hit an almost impossible serve to return and win free points by using a gimmick instead of skill. I understand that people thinks it “stuns the growth” of the sport, but I believe that it would be much harder for amateurs of all ages to deal with it.
I couldn’t do a very good spin serve. I had a couple players I play with do it well. I liked the challenge it took to try and return the serve. Just like I like the challenge of the players that can serve really hard/fast and deep.
One thing to consider is the possibility that international rules may differ on banning the spin serve. This might create a situation where, for instance, to keep up with the East Germans (😂) who allow spin serves (hypothetically), U.S. rules would change to allow it again in order for American players to better compete on an international stage.
In my opinion, the spin serves should not have been banned unless they were being used against me in a match.
I was playing for years when it got popular, and it was such a bs shot because you were able to add incredible amounts of spin with your hand that you weren’t able to do with the paddle. It just seemed like a cheap shot and not in line with the spirit of the game
stupid strategy to win your game using ace , pickleball isn't about a serve
I vote for drop serve. Who cares about the perception of athleticism? Golf has not been hurt by all the beer bellies.😂
pingpong: ???
#FreeTheChainsaw