If the video didn’t fully clarify things and you’re still feeling confused, here’s a breakdown of where the current serve rules stand. USAP/APP: 1. The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck. 2. Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level. 3. The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact. PPA: 1. The ball must be released downward from the waist area. A drop from the hand may not be tossed upwards but can incur minimal and natural lift (up to one ball length). 2. The swing on the serve must be underhand (around 45 degrees or less) and the paddle must clearly travel in a low to high direction. 3. Serves where either the ball is tossed too high on the release or the swing was not clearly in a low to high motion will first result in a service warning and re-serve. Each player is allowed one service warning per match. Subsequent violations will result in a fault. MLP: 1. Servers can release the ball any way they want (with a toss or a drop), as long as it’s a volley serve and the release is visible to the referee. 2. The highest point of the paddle head must be clearly below the wrist when the paddle strikes the ball. 3. There must be a clear and discernible upward arc in the server’s arm swing at the time the ball is struck with the paddle. 4. There are no restrictions on where the server contacts the ball on their body (can be above or below waist level). 5. A player’s serve cannot be challenged.
It needs to be a drop serve. It’d make the serve less of a weapon which is what it was always suppose to be. They’re also never gonna roll back the paddle power but they could enforce a softer ball that is slower and less likely to crack. However, that’s a different topic. But those are the top 2 issues in the sport.
As someone who does like to drop serve it is sometimes difficult on different court materials. But I would honestly be happy if it was even legal in all competitive play ( Currently banned by the PPA)
@@ruhroah5044 there are some pretty slick drop serves you can hit. I've certainly hit my fair share of trickshot aces. The rules are also generally more plain for what serves are legal. Whereas the volley serve requires a referee to be paying attention to avoid cheating.
Heres my opinion. Make it mandatory drop serves and strike it off the bounce.cannot toss ball. However! Allow any way of striking the ball. Slice, topspin, sidespin, above wrist, above waist, up to down motion, down to up motion. The serve will only be limited to how high the ball will be after it bounces off the ground
@@villbuzeep2043 lol what i mean is genuinely "anything". Drop serves currently still follow the rule of down to up motion and that the paddle should at least point below the wrist. What i mean by genuinly anything is any possible angle of the racket physically possible by the server. If it means an overhead, if the server can crouch down after the bounce an hit it, or if it means producing a short chop or slice on the ball to make a sort of short dropshot serve, or even a tennis kick serve if the server can lay down the ground in time after the bounce (although this would be extremely awkward and difficult to do). But what im saying, all of those should be possible as the ultimate limitation on the server would be the height of the ball after it bounces. All of these that i mentioned are currently illegal in the serve rules currently.
@@eabaw4wrw3rqf72 Drop serves do not have to follow those rules. USA Pickleball 2024 rules Section 4.A.8.c => The restrictions on the Volley Serve in Rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve. 4.A.7 has those items listed (down to up motion, etc.)
I never understood how youre supposed to even tell if someone is breaking the serve rules when it all happens so fast, theres too many rules for it that are hard to enforce or monitor
I think the serve will continue to be debated. So many opinions seem to think the drop serve can cure most of the problems. Well, I'm a drop server and I can tell you that you that those who figured out tricks with the volley serve will also find tricks with the drop serve. If I were a better player like some of the pros, I know I could consistently do a drop serve that barely comes off the surface of the ground when it passes over the net. I've done it a few times. I just can't do it consistently. I can put some wicked spins on a drop serve as well, especially if I wait to connect with the ball when it's closer to the ground. Point here is that the drop server can and eventually will be exploited too just like the other serves. I think it will be a controversy for a long time coming.
I think the drop serve is the best solution-it simplifies the game, keeps things consistent, and still allows players to add spin, power, and more. When I started playing five months ago, I was confused by all the rules about wrist position, paddle angle, and hitting below the waist. It was hard to tell if I was serving legally, let alone consistently. Dropping the ball makes serving easy and consistent. Plus, relying on weird, overly spin-heavy serves for points isn’t exciting. The sport has plenty of ways to showcase athleticism without debating whether the drop serve is "cool." This was a great video....I was curious about all these serve controversies. Thank you! 🍀
The serve is an important part of the entire game. In Table Tennis, the spin of the ball is critical to winning a point...beginning with the serve. If you can't return the serve you are simply not good enough to be in the game. Like TT, let the pro's determine the game.....the rest will figure it out. In TT, the paddle must be visible to the receiver, the ball must be dropped/tossed from the upright palm with no spin. In Pball, it can be the same concept: drop the ball from chest height or below and ensure the strike is waist high or below. Spin is part of the game, let the serve have spin. Yes, it is difficult to return......until the receiver learns to read the spin and return it. If the server has a spin serve he/she better be able to receive a spin return because a good return may amplify the serve spin.......reverse it, or simply overpower it.
This I can agree to. TT have been doing spin serves for ages and nobody complained, and now pros PB are actually doing some pro moves and its banned, WTH?
@@huynhxuanviet9818 Ummm as someone who's played competitive table tennis for a long time, I quite disagree that "nobody complained". TT has been through multiple serving controversies for 80 years, and today there is still huge problems over "legal" serves, including how high you must toss the ball, how "vertical" the toss must be, and most of all various techniques to do illegal "hiding" of the ball before you contact it. There currently are lots of arguments over problems enforcing the serve rules, including issues with whether referees can even see the infractions properly. There are lots of people proposing ways to simply or further restrict serving motions to deal with all of the problems still ongoing.
JUST MAKE EVERYTHING A “DROP” SERVE” WHERE YOU HAVE TO HIT THE BALL AFTER IT BOUNCES OFF THE GROUND. You can not throw the ball toward the ground. Your hand can be as high as you can reach up and just let go of the ball. Period, everything with the serve is done with.
Micro managing how a ball is put into play isn't needed. The drop serve is still the best serve. Why do people say the serve shouldn't be a " weapon" when powerful paddles are desired?
@@JP-mq7pg IKR? Also a favorite pet peeve are these people saying homes shouldn’t be investments. So many word games. If the serve isn’t a weapon, then should the return not be either? How about that 3rd shot?
Ask people to drop the ball onto the ground to serve. I am sure one dwarf will be able to serve overhand even in that case but will be at such a disadvantage otherwise that we could give him/her that little bit of advantage. Get rid of all these issues, once and for all.
Ex-racquetball player who switched to P-ball a couple years ago. My serve is a backhand drop and I use the same stroke as r-ball. The effect is a gentle (or sometimes no so gentle) spin that goes right to left (from my viewpoint). I have never been challenged on this during rec play, league, or tournaments. I am not sure how I would handle it if I did get challenged as this is my only serve. Thanks for the info!
Adapt and learn. That's my suggestion. People on casual base will evolved to use the spin serve later on. That's how tennis and table tennis players play.
At 11:48, he swings downward to slice the ball... that can't be legal. So I slice but swing upwards, below my waist when I serve. The ball ends up spinning after the slice but I don't spin the ball with my hand before hitting it. Is ANY spinning ball when it lands on the opponents side of the court an illegal serve? Is my serve legal or not? Thanks for the video
I used the spin serve on my 11 year old kid on table tennis. She didn't like it but she adapt and use that on me. To me, it bring out the creativity of a sport game. One's need to adapt or fall behind when decades of new players come into play. Tennis and table tennis/ping pong have spin serves. I taught my daughter table tennis and now teaching tennis for her. Pickle ball is new to me but both my daughter will learn together. Tennis is strenuous and it will probably give me a good workout and also a good opportunity to teach as well. I am 50 year old and my body is not athletic like a 20 year old. Hopefully I lose the belly gutted weights. 😅😅😅
Drop serve w/ any contact is the only way to make things consistent/fair. Originally, Pickleball was never supposed to be won or lost on the serve. You are just supposed to get the point started. This is why you have to serve over the kitchen line so returner doesn’t have to worry about/cover a short serve. If nothing is done we will end up with a dumb rule like a serve back line or no aces.
The new rule of serve have to be 1- like in table tennis(ping pong/ both area bounces), number 2- can be any direction (or place, even the kitchen, only applying for serve only)
You really are giving us great quality videos dude, keep it up. I'm gonna be surprised if your channel does not blow up sometime in 2025. Also, 4:59 What mic do you use? It sounds great.
For the Pro circuit a drop serve from the waist would challenge the top players to develop high quality serves from a lowing bounce apex. For the recreational player a drop from any height would ensure an easier start to the sport. No other paddle rules needed so refereeing becomes straightforward and easy for recreational players to understand. Simple but effective in ensuring the sport does not become a serving dominated sport as other racket sports !
As a table tennis and tennis player, spin serve have been there. They have evolved and adapted to later generation of players. So have other sport activities in adapting to modern ways. Better equipments, tactics, gameplay, and etc have pretty much advance further. I think it's fine on a competitive match but as for casual for fun and exercising volleys, please be respectful of opponents. If opponent cannot handle the spin serve, just do an underhanded serve.
@feeltheslipstream they made a similar rule change ages ago in table tennis - any spin put on the ball has to be put on with the paddle, not with your hand
I think they mean PRE spinning the ball with you non dominant hand (like Zane in this video). Of course most balls get spin to them on the serve, they are suggesting getting rid of the PRE spin.
The solution? Eliminate the ambiguity and adopt a simplified drop serve rule. I've been playing pickleball for the last two years, and the constant rule changes and debates around service rules pushed me to transition to the drop serve after my first year. It's been a game-changer for me. Allowing the ball to bounce on the ground eliminates concerns about potential hand manipulation before the serve, ensuring a fairer and more consistent play. However, the current drop serve rule needs refinement to ensure fairness and consistency. For example, limiting the ball should only be allowed to be dropped from a hand doesn't make any sense. Becasue the nature of the plastic ball with open holes means it doesn’t bounce well, limits drop location which restricts player movement and makes the serve feel awkward and unnatural. Not to mention it is another rule that player has to worry about. This approach not only limits fluidity but also gives the game an amateurish appearance, detracting from its overall appeal. These adjustments would create a more level playing field and minimize disputes on the court, allowing everyone to focus on enjoying the game.
I've never understood arguments of "fairness" in situations like this. "Unfair" is someone breaking the rules. Applying a lot of spin or hitting harder than someone or generally producing shots that another player might not be able to produce does not constitute unfairness, but rather an ability gap or imagination gap. Many people consider/used to consider dropshots "cheap"/"unfair" in tennis, but really, what's stopping you from learning to produce and deal with them? Once you've seen them, they are a tool to wield and defend against. You are given a racquet, ball, court, and set of rules-why not allow people to come up with whatever they can within those restrictions?
The serve controversy, in my opinion, are largely at the tournament level. I started with a drop serve and moved to a “volley” serve, not because of any additional power. It was a matter of consistency, particularly when playing outdoors in windy conditions where the drop gets blown off its intended position causing erratic serves. I am 70 years old with bad shoulders, I am not blowing anyone away with the power of my serves.
The only thing beating Pickleball are the people who love Pickleball. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. I think a rule needs to be made and adopted by all of the governing orgs in order to be more cohesive throughout the sport. It’s embarrassing that there is a new rule regarding something everyday but wait it’s only one of the PPA, USAP, or MLP that’s made the rule change.
The problem is that pickleball is a sport expressly designed to limit skill. As people start taking it more seriously, some want rules that allow them to make highly skilled plays, while others want rules that limit what is possible. Pickleball is the speedwalking of racquet sports.
The problem is the unenforceability. Everyone has played against a rec player who serves from tits high. It's annoying. No one wants to become the serve police on something that requires a slowmo camera to determine legality. Drop serve fixes everything.
I teach BOTH serves and I've used both in rec and tournament play. I've been playing long enough to remember we only had 1 serve to choose from so you had to get it right.. What exactly is "UN-ATHLETIC" about the drop serve?? and WHO CARES!!?? Rick Barry is/was the greatest free throw shooter in NBA history (Now a Pickleball Champion). He shot a goofy underhand style that's NEVER been repeated. That's probably why HE'S STILL THE BEST!! Looks funny until you win!!💪
This serve controversy is just the tip of the iceberg to pickleball's REAL problem. PB's governing body insists on so many rules that restrict offensive capabilities from the game wherever possible. Most obvious are paddle spec restrictions, all the rules pertaining to the NVZ, one bounce rule and, of course, the serve restrictions. So, as a tennis player who learned long ago how to return 100 mph slice and kick serves, I see significantly reduced development of amateur level PB players because of all the rules that dumb the game down. Tactically speaking, the current rules render PB a (boring to watch) defensive game as opposed to (exciting) offensive game. **The huge majority of games played in PB are NOT won by the player/team who hit the most winners, but by the player/team who hit fewer errors.**
If pickleball really wants to betaken seriously,they need to have universal rules,so that means make everyone from rec to pro use the drop serve. Like everyone does it in tennis with the same throwing up technique.players keep practising the drop serve they can still turn it into a weapon anyway.
Actually, you can serve however you want in tennis. The only rule is where you are on the court (feet must not touch the inside of the court until you have hit the ball). You used to have to keep at least one foot on the ground, until 1960 when the rule was abolished. And while the 'classic' toss followed by hitting the ball overhead is technically superior (which is why everyone uses it), it's perfectly acceptable to hit the serve in all kinds of weird ways. Two famous examples that come to mind are - Michael Chang underhand vs Lendl at the French Open in 1989. - Nick Kyrgios the last years as a deterrent vs. players who stand very far behind the line, negating part of the impact of his serve. He forces them to stand a bit closer, making his 'normal' serve, which is already an exceptional shot, even more effective than if there wasn't the threat of the underhand. With that said, drop serve seems fine to me.
Not all drop serves are legal. Was she saying all drop serves were illegal, or just yours? We had a guy here who spun the ball on his drop. Not allowed.
@nunyabidness3075 mine is legal. I don't toss it in the air, throw it down or spin it, I just drop it and hit it. It's unconventional in the way I sling around my arm when I hit it, it's like a sidearm motion which imparts sidespin if done correctly. But still 100% legal.
I serve the same way. Multiple refs in multiple tournaments have never once questioned my serve. ONLY older opponents who are down in the match and including some with admittedly poor eyesight have.
Just drop the ball at any height No initial spin to the ball before touching the paddle Paddle face stays below wrist when serving Whats so difficult to enforce that?
With the new fans coming from every age , young players than before, this sport is becoming increasingly aggressive, and the serve is the most common way to show aggressiveness… putting aside the tactics and strategy in a second place
Even with a drop serve spin could be introduced. It seems a shame to have a sport where a talent or athletic ability has to be handcuffed. If a strong server can so tremendously overpower his opponents, then it seems something must be wrong with the receivers, not the servers. Baseball took down the pitcher's mound 5 inches after the 1968 season. But that's all the tweaking they did to that and the hitters regained a balance. In table tennis servers can spin all they want and it's incumbent upon the receivers to return serve. The difference is that it's possible in table tennis to return the best serves. If that's not the case in pickleball maybe the court sizes need to be reassessed?
Paddle generated spin has never been banned. The states that you can't pre-spin the ball before making paddle contact. Spin the serve all you want via the paddle. Just like TT, pre-spin is not permitted. I've seen a lot of comments by people who don't know the rules, but insist on commenting, incorrectly.
@SanityReigns-pz8qh thank you. I do not have any Pickleball experience, you're right. But I don't think that makes my comment totally off the mark. Yes, in TT you are correct about pre-spin. Spin cannot be applied by the free hand initially, only by the paddle striking the ball. That you're saying this is the same in Pickleball is reassuring. Still, if spin can be applied by the paddle/racket in Pickleball, apparently it differs from TT in that this spin becomes impossible to return whereas in TT it isn't. All I'm saying is that it seems unfortunate that in Pickleball the skill of the athletes spinning the ball has to be handcuffed to improve the game. It seems to me another angle should be looked at to achieve the same thing. Court size, something.
@@garylshelton2463There are no prohibitions regarding paddle generated spin (paddle construction rules aside). Sure, there's always the return into the net or out of bounds (off the table in TT). However, a complete miss is almost unheard of, and when it does happen is usually due to some really funky bounce, or maybe a serve through "coffin corner" (the area close to the T at the kitchen [NVZ] and the service box), or just maybe a serve down the center line when the receiver is set up a bit wide.
They have to make it universal across these leagues first, then adopt the rule. Eliminating the volley serve seems to be practical. The height of point of contact deems to be up to translation based on human factor unless they can apply video challenge. This game is getting more and more popular, and with more prize money being distributed hence the cheater and pushing the limit...
I don’t understand how these serves don’t violate the rule that the paddle needs to be below the wrist at contact. Can someone please explain? It sure looks like it isn’t even close on that one guy’s serve. (And I agree with everyone saying the rule should require drop serve)
Are you allowed to lunge inside court during serve? As in toss the ball inside the court and serve with the majority of your body inside court and one foot just behind the baseline, other foot midair.
10:53 Scientifically, grit on a paddle doesn’t directly affect spin; instead, it increases the angle at which the paddle can effectively make contact with the ball. The key factor in generating spin is the contact time between the paddle and the ball.
I disagree. The coefficient of friction is higher between the ball and a gritted surface than a smooth surface. There are plenty of people who evaluate paddles that can show clear and objective test results of rpm generated by various paddles. I don’t disagree entirely that dwell time on the paddle is a factor, but to say the surface of the paddle “doesn’t directly affect spin” is not true.
Honestly the serve is hardly a problem right now. I watch ppa and it's basically impossible to ace someone. Have these people watched tennis? They ace all the time.
1. The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck. 2. Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level. 3. The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact.
What if you take the ball out, if you play your “Sport” without ball, you don’t have all this “issues “ if you don’t concentrate, and you don’t look at the ball, you can’t play. Service should be below the shoulder and deal with it. Period.
The drop serve is stupid if you are considered a pro and can’t detect wrist motion or spin on a ball then you shouldn’t be on that stage each pickle ball association needs to come up with the same rule for the serve
Stop ruling out players that practice and are good. If you can’t return a serve then either practice more or dont play people that hurt your feelings because you can’t compete.
If you are going to make a game a professional sport, you need to let it evolve on its own. I already have a problem with the dang kitchen rule. Excessive rule making will kill the sport
Stop ruling out players that practice and are good. If you can’t return a serve then either practice more or dont play people that hurt your feelings because you can’t compete. Playing rec centers I play to barely win if I am much better than opponent. If they can’t hit my serve I cut out the spin or slow it down. If I ever play professional, I would try and serve every ball they can’t return. I would find their weakness and exploit it. If I can do that then don’t change the rules to prevent me. May the best player win!
Banning the spin serve is IMO the #1 piece of evidence against Pickleball being considered a real sport (not that I agree with it). You don't just ban something within the rules just because people complain about it when they're not good enough to defend against it! (Though I do support a bounce rule lmao, what a hypocrite!)
I don’t get it. I watch plenty of pro pickleball online, and I almost never see an unreturned serve., no matter what the rule. Some tennis players hit two aces every four points, and it doesn’t hurt tennis’s popularity. Developer Bar is fun to watch, because he occasionally hits an ace. The defense ready has the advantage in p ball, why not let the offense find a way to catch up? No spin serves of corse….that’s too much of an advantage.
I learned to play after the spin serves had been banned and have never seen them. But is it really that hard to return? In table tennis it's an intermediate/advanced skill to deal with changing in direction of the ball due to spin. For example, the "snake" shot ua-cam.com/video/LwQ0OBIci68/v-deo.html . This shot may fool club level players but will get eaten by pros and advanced players.
One rule, I want to be changed is the serve hits receiver's partner in Air before bouncing rule. I saw some kids trying the inside out curve serve with 100% his power and hit receiver's partner, he did not have a chance to move ...
its so bad and stupid you have to have a serve rules? also you'll should have a stoves in your kitchen, otherwise don't call it a kitchen if you aint cooking in it. lol.
ban all these random social media "pros" hahaha but really we need a rule change that stays and isnt "amended" a year later... paddles need to be limited at this point
Yet another reason pickleball is inferior to tennis. If you suggested banning a tennis serve because its spin or speed was too dominant, you'd be laughed off the court. In tennis, if you can't deal with someone's serve, boo hoo, you either man up & learn techniques of dealing with it, or you move to a lower level where the serves aren't as dominating.
As someone who played pickle-ball only twice, but is a table tennis veteran, can someone explain to me what is the problem with spin serves??? You can't respond properly to those? Also, why when serving the ball doesn't need bounce from the floor? This should be added as a rule.
I would like a provisional period to evaluate a new serving procedure that basically incorporates the only requirement on contacting the ball to be a certain height arc (such as done in slow pitch softball). The ball may be contacted in any manor as long as the trajectory of ball crosses the net with an arc range minimum of 6 feet with no maximum height.
All the “unique” serves go away at 4.0+ It’s all velocity with top spin, low over the net and at the white line. 3.0-3.5 everyone’s trying to slice like it’s table tennis. Or put a hook on it. That only gets you so far and I’ve notice it’s not consistent.
Hey, guess what. Us recreational players do not care about your millennial rules. We, and I do mean the plural, do not participate in tournaments stacked against lower players. We, again the majority of original players, play for exercise and social interaction. Not to showboat.
Too many opinions. Too many perspectives of the same vague and ambiguous rules. Too many contradictions and variations between the 3 PB leagues. Clean that mess up and the confusion will dissipate and all that we'll have left is the inconsequential argument of whether you like the rules or not.
"I dont know what unatheletic looks like", um sir please have a look at your local pickleball park and youll know very fast. Lets go full circle, tennis overhead serves should be introduced.
If the video didn’t fully clarify things and you’re still feeling confused, here’s a breakdown of where the current serve rules stand.
USAP/APP:
1. The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck.
2. Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level.
3. The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact.
PPA:
1. The ball must be released downward from the waist area. A drop from the hand may not be tossed upwards but can incur minimal and natural lift (up to one ball length).
2. The swing on the serve must be underhand (around 45 degrees or less) and the paddle must clearly travel in a low to high direction.
3. Serves where either the ball is tossed too high on the release or the swing was not clearly in a low to high motion will first result in a service warning and re-serve. Each player is allowed one service warning per match. Subsequent violations will result in a fault.
MLP:
1. Servers can release the ball any way they want (with a toss or a drop), as long as it’s a volley serve and the release is visible to the referee.
2. The highest point of the paddle head must be clearly below the wrist when the paddle strikes the ball.
3. There must be a clear and discernible upward arc in the server’s arm swing at the time the ball is struck with the paddle.
4. There are no restrictions on where the server contacts the ball on their body (can be above or below waist level).
5. A player’s serve cannot be challenged.
Only one rule needed. Drop serve ftw.
It needs to be a drop serve. It’d make the serve less of a weapon which is what it was always suppose to be. They’re also never gonna roll back the paddle power but they could enforce a softer ball that is slower and less likely to crack. However, that’s a different topic. But those are the top 2 issues in the sport.
So punish those of us who put effort into the game bc you're lazy?
Thanks for the video. The drop serve should be the universal serve rule. Easy to understand and importantly for tournament play, easy to enforce.
As someone who does like to drop serve it is sometimes difficult on different court materials. But I would honestly be happy if it was even legal in all competitive play ( Currently banned by the PPA)
Agreed.👏👏
a drop serve is like an underhand volleyball serve...fine when you're a beginner.
@@ruhroah5044 there are some pretty slick drop serves you can hit. I've certainly hit my fair share of trickshot aces.
The rules are also generally more plain for what serves are legal. Whereas the volley serve requires a referee to be paying attention to avoid cheating.
Garbage opinion
Heres my opinion. Make it mandatory drop serves and strike it off the bounce.cannot toss ball. However! Allow any way of striking the ball. Slice, topspin, sidespin, above wrist, above waist, up to down motion, down to up motion. The serve will only be limited to how high the ball will be after it bounces off the ground
Interesting
drop serves do allow any striking of the ball - those other things are only applicable to volley serve rules
@@villbuzeep2043 lol what i mean is genuinely "anything". Drop serves currently still follow the rule of down to up motion and that the paddle should at least point below the wrist. What i mean by genuinly anything is any possible angle of the racket physically possible by the server. If it means an overhead, if the server can crouch down after the bounce an hit it, or if it means producing a short chop or slice on the ball to make a sort of short dropshot serve, or even a tennis kick serve if the server can lay down the ground in time after the bounce (although this would be extremely awkward and difficult to do). But what im saying, all of those should be possible as the ultimate limitation on the server would be the height of the ball after it bounces. All of these that i mentioned are currently illegal in the serve rules currently.
@@eabaw4wrw3rqf72 Drop serves do not have to follow those rules. USA Pickleball 2024 rules Section 4.A.8.c => The restrictions on the Volley Serve in Rule 4.A.7 do not apply to the drop serve. 4.A.7 has those items listed (down to up motion, etc.)
No one will ever agree to that- too high a skill ceiling for pickleball.
Just change to a drop ball to the court surface then strike it off the bounce.
You can also apply spin to that.
I never understood how youre supposed to even tell if someone is breaking the serve rules when it all happens so fast, theres too many rules for it that are hard to enforce or monitor
I think the serve will continue to be debated. So many opinions seem to think the drop serve can cure most of the problems. Well, I'm a drop server and I can tell you that you that those who figured out tricks with the volley serve will also find tricks with the drop serve. If I were a better player like some of the pros, I know I could consistently do a drop serve that barely comes off the surface of the ground when it passes over the net. I've done it a few times. I just can't do it consistently. I can put some wicked spins on a drop serve as well, especially if I wait to connect with the ball when it's closer to the ground. Point here is that the drop server can and eventually will be exploited too just like the other serves. I think it will be a controversy for a long time coming.
I think the drop serve is the best solution-it simplifies the game, keeps things consistent, and still allows players to add spin, power, and more. When I started playing five months ago, I was confused by all the rules about wrist position, paddle angle, and hitting below the waist. It was hard to tell if I was serving legally, let alone consistently. Dropping the ball makes serving easy and consistent. Plus, relying on weird, overly spin-heavy serves for points isn’t exciting. The sport has plenty of ways to showcase athleticism without debating whether the drop serve is "cool." This was a great video....I was curious about all these serve controversies. Thank you! 🍀
The serve is an important part of the entire game. In Table Tennis, the spin of the ball is critical to winning a point...beginning with the serve. If you can't return the serve you are simply not good enough to be in the game. Like TT, let the pro's determine the game.....the rest will figure it out. In TT, the paddle must be visible to the receiver, the ball must be dropped/tossed from the upright palm with no spin. In Pball, it can be the same concept: drop the ball from chest height or below and ensure the strike is waist high or below. Spin is part of the game, let the serve have spin. Yes, it is difficult to return......until the receiver learns to read the spin and return it. If the server has a spin serve he/she better be able to receive a spin return because a good return may amplify the serve spin.......reverse it, or simply overpower it.
This I can agree to. TT have been doing spin serves for ages and nobody complained, and now pros PB are actually doing some pro moves and its banned, WTH?
@@huynhxuanviet9818 Ummm as someone who's played competitive table tennis for a long time, I quite disagree that "nobody complained". TT has been through multiple serving controversies for 80 years, and today there is still huge problems over "legal" serves, including how high you must toss the ball, how "vertical" the toss must be, and most of all various techniques to do illegal "hiding" of the ball before you contact it. There currently are lots of arguments over problems enforcing the serve rules, including issues with whether referees can even see the infractions properly. There are lots of people proposing ways to simply or further restrict serving motions to deal with all of the problems still ongoing.
The spin serve has never been illegal. Only the pre-spin serve is illegal, just like TT.
Really cool video and interviews and investigation. Good work!
We need one pro circuit to get the server rule done with.
Consolidation will most likely eventually occur
JUST MAKE EVERYTHING A “DROP” SERVE” WHERE YOU HAVE TO HIT THE BALL AFTER IT BOUNCES OFF THE GROUND.
You can not throw the ball toward the ground. Your hand can be as high as you can reach up and just let go of the ball. Period, everything with the serve is done with.
JUST STOP YELLING! 😂🤣😂
I would like to get the arguments over myself.
Micro managing how a ball is put into play isn't needed. The drop serve is still the best serve. Why do people say the serve shouldn't be a " weapon" when powerful paddles are desired?
@@JP-mq7pg IKR? Also a favorite pet peeve are these people saying homes shouldn’t be investments. So many word games. If the serve isn’t a weapon, then should the return not be either? How about that 3rd shot?
@ sorry, it was just stuck on all caps 😹
@@edwardlacalifornia9634 🤣😂🤣😂
Drop serve solves the ambiguity and paddle power has to go back some which would highlight skill and wile over easy power.
great deep dive - keep it up
Ask people to drop the ball onto the ground to serve. I am sure one dwarf will be able to serve overhand even in that case but will be at such a disadvantage otherwise that we could give him/her that little bit of advantage. Get rid of all these issues, once and for all.
it would need to be a dwarf with chimpanzee-like arms
Ex-racquetball player who switched to P-ball a couple years ago. My serve is a backhand drop and I use the same stroke as r-ball. The effect is a gentle (or sometimes no so gentle) spin that goes right to left (from my viewpoint). I have never been challenged on this during rec play, league, or tournaments. I am not sure how I would handle it if I did get challenged as this is my only serve. Thanks for the info!
it's fine per USA Pickleball rules
Adapt and learn. That's my suggestion. People on casual base will evolved to use the spin serve later on. That's how tennis and table tennis players play.
At 11:48, he swings downward to slice the ball... that can't be legal.
So I slice but swing upwards, below my waist when I serve. The ball ends up spinning after the slice but I don't spin the ball with my hand before hitting it. Is ANY spinning ball when it lands on the opponents side of the court an illegal serve?
Is my serve legal or not?
Thanks for the video
Drop serve. Padel uses a drop serve and I dont see anyone complaining.
I miss the spin serve. Using it and returning it but it’s good that it’s now banned
Spin Serve was too OP!
I used the spin serve on my 11 year old kid on table tennis. She didn't like it but she adapt and use that on me.
To me, it bring out the creativity of a sport game. One's need to adapt or fall behind when decades of new players come into play.
Tennis and table tennis/ping pong have spin serves. I taught my daughter table tennis and now teaching tennis for her. Pickle ball is new to me but both my daughter will learn together. Tennis is strenuous and it will probably give me a good workout and also a good opportunity to teach as well. I am 50 year old and my body is not athletic like a 20 year old. Hopefully I lose the belly gutted weights. 😅😅😅
@@bestiapickleball OMG just learn how to anticipate spin!!!
STOP WHINING
@@peterhuycke1857 never! lol
Drop serve w/ any contact is the only way to make things consistent/fair.
Originally, Pickleball was never supposed to be won or lost on the serve. You are just supposed to get the point started. This is why you have to serve over the kitchen line so returner doesn’t have to worry about/cover a short serve.
If nothing is done we will end up with a dumb rule like a serve back line or no aces.
The new rule of serve have to be 1- like in table tennis(ping pong/ both area bounces), number 2- can be any direction (or place, even the kitchen, only applying for serve only)
You really are giving us great quality videos dude, keep it up. I'm gonna be surprised if your channel does not blow up sometime in 2025.
Also, 4:59 What mic do you use? It sounds great.
Thanks man! 4:59-Eriks Mic? Im fairly sure he was just using his earbuds but I could be wrong!
@@bestiapickleball Oh, I was just being a little mischievous with that second part of the comment. :D
@@RegalOrb sarcasm is difficult to detect over the internet hahaha
great vid. very needed
Appreciate it!
For the Pro circuit a drop serve from the waist would challenge the top players to develop high quality serves from a lowing bounce apex. For the recreational player a drop from any height would ensure an easier start to the sport. No other paddle rules needed so refereeing becomes straightforward and easy for recreational players to understand.
Simple but effective in ensuring the sport does not become a serving dominated sport as other racket sports !
As a table tennis and tennis player, spin serve have been there. They have evolved and adapted to later generation of players. So have other sport activities in adapting to modern ways. Better equipments, tactics, gameplay, and etc have pretty much advance further.
I think it's fine on a competitive match but as for casual for fun and exercising volleys, please be respectful of opponents. If opponent cannot handle the spin serve, just do an underhanded serve.
Needs to be a consistent standard across all leagues. As well as pro / rec. The same rules everywhere.
PB has finally gotten to where table tennis was ages ago regarding the serve. Basically in ping pong : "No funny business."
A lot of the complaints at the beginning of the video actually sound ridiculous if you play table tennis.
@@feeltheslipstream or literally any sport, it's like banning a pitch in baseball that moves down AND sideways because it's "too hard to hit"
@feeltheslipstream they made a similar rule change ages ago in table tennis - any spin put on the ball has to be put on with the paddle, not with your hand
Great in depth look into thes topic. Thanks. Keep the guidelines as they are but maybe have a Ref directly behind the server for a better view.
No spin serve, paddle below wrist, upward swing and at or below the hip is just fine.
@@Logan.Ninefingers how can you define a spin serve? Every serve is technically a spin serve. There is no such thing as a perfectly flat ball
@@eabaw4wrw3rqf72 a spin serve as defined in this very video is when the ball is spun by the hand before being hit by the racket.
I think they mean PRE spinning the ball with you non dominant hand (like Zane in this video). Of course most balls get spin to them on the serve, they are suggesting getting rid of the PRE spin.
@@evidencebased1 ah ok
The solution? Eliminate the ambiguity and adopt a simplified drop serve rule. I've been playing pickleball for the last two years, and the constant rule changes and debates around service rules pushed me to transition to the drop serve after my first year. It's been a game-changer for me. Allowing the ball to bounce on the ground eliminates concerns about potential hand manipulation before the serve, ensuring a fairer and more consistent play.
However, the current drop serve rule needs refinement to ensure fairness and consistency. For example, limiting the ball should only be allowed to be dropped from a hand doesn't make any sense. Becasue the nature of the plastic ball with open holes means it doesn’t bounce well, limits drop location which restricts player movement and makes the serve feel awkward and unnatural. Not to mention it is another rule that player has to worry about. This approach not only limits fluidity but also gives the game an amateurish appearance, detracting from its overall appeal.
These adjustments would create a more level playing field and minimize disputes on the court, allowing everyone to focus on enjoying the game.
I've never understood arguments of "fairness" in situations like this. "Unfair" is someone breaking the rules. Applying a lot of spin or hitting harder than someone or generally producing shots that another player might not be able to produce does not constitute unfairness, but rather an ability gap or imagination gap. Many people consider/used to consider dropshots "cheap"/"unfair" in tennis, but really, what's stopping you from learning to produce and deal with them? Once you've seen them, they are a tool to wield and defend against. You are given a racquet, ball, court, and set of rules-why not allow people to come up with whatever they can within those restrictions?
The serve controversy, in my opinion, are largely at the tournament level. I started with a drop serve and moved to a “volley” serve, not because of any additional power. It was a matter of consistency, particularly when playing outdoors in windy conditions where the drop gets blown off its intended position causing erratic serves. I am 70 years old with bad shoulders, I am not blowing anyone away with the power of my serves.
The rule should be serve anyway you want as long as it is ''under arm''.
Meaning hitting the ball upward motion.
the rule should be "the hand.arm can not be going up at release point" and "release point must be at or below the waist"
The only thing beating Pickleball are the people who love Pickleball. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. I think a rule needs to be made and adopted by all of the governing orgs in order to be more cohesive throughout the sport. It’s embarrassing that there is a new rule regarding something everyday but wait it’s only one of the PPA, USAP, or MLP that’s made the rule change.
The problem is that pickleball is a sport expressly designed to limit skill. As people start taking it more seriously, some want rules that allow them to make highly skilled plays, while others want rules that limit what is possible.
Pickleball is the speedwalking of racquet sports.
The problem is the unenforceability. Everyone has played against a rec player who serves from tits high. It's annoying. No one wants to become the serve police on something that requires a slowmo camera to determine legality. Drop serve fixes everything.
I teach BOTH serves and I've used both in rec and tournament play.
I've been playing long enough to remember we only had 1 serve to choose from so you had to get it right..
What exactly is "UN-ATHLETIC" about the drop serve?? and WHO CARES!!??
Rick Barry is/was the greatest free throw shooter in NBA history (Now a Pickleball Champion).
He shot a goofy underhand style that's NEVER been repeated.
That's probably why HE'S STILL THE BEST!!
Looks funny until you win!!💪
This serve controversy is just the tip of the iceberg to pickleball's REAL problem. PB's governing body insists on so many rules that restrict offensive capabilities from the game wherever possible. Most obvious are paddle spec restrictions, all the rules pertaining to the NVZ, one bounce rule and, of course, the serve restrictions. So, as a tennis player who learned long ago how to return 100 mph slice and kick serves, I see significantly reduced development of amateur level PB players because of all the rules that dumb the game down. Tactically speaking, the current rules render PB a (boring to watch) defensive game as opposed to (exciting) offensive game. **The huge majority of games played in PB are NOT won by the player/team who hit the most winners, but by the player/team who hit fewer errors.**
If pickleball really wants to betaken seriously,they need to have universal rules,so that means make everyone from rec to pro use the drop serve.
Like everyone does it in tennis with the same throwing up technique.players keep practising the drop serve they can still turn it into a weapon anyway.
Everyone in tennis uses the same toss because it’s pretty optimal. Maybe after another century, pickleball will get there.
Actually, you can serve however you want in tennis. The only rule is where you are on the court (feet must not touch the inside of the court until you have hit the ball). You used to have to keep at least one foot on the ground, until 1960 when the rule was abolished.
And while the 'classic' toss followed by hitting the ball overhead is technically superior (which is why everyone uses it), it's perfectly acceptable to hit the serve in all kinds of weird ways.
Two famous examples that come to mind are
- Michael Chang underhand vs Lendl at the French Open in 1989.
- Nick Kyrgios the last years as a deterrent vs. players who stand very far behind the line, negating part of the impact of his serve. He forces them to stand a bit closer, making his 'normal' serve, which is already an exceptional shot, even more effective than if there wasn't the threat of the underhand.
With that said, drop serve seems fine to me.
I had a woman say my drop serve was illegal in a rec game. Don't play if you don't know the rules.
Not all drop serves are legal. Was she saying all drop serves were illegal, or just yours? We had a guy here who spun the ball on his drop. Not allowed.
@nunyabidness3075 mine is legal. I don't toss it in the air, throw it down or spin it, I just drop it and hit it. It's unconventional in the way I sling around my arm when I hit it, it's like a sidearm motion which imparts sidespin if done correctly. But still 100% legal.
I serve the same way. Multiple refs in multiple tournaments have never once questioned my serve. ONLY older opponents who are down in the match and including some with admittedly poor eyesight have.
They should change it to the drop serve like in padel. It looks fine.
Make it drop serve only! It is that simple.
Just drop the ball at any height
No initial spin to the ball before touching the paddle
Paddle face stays below wrist when serving
Whats so difficult to enforce that?
With the new fans coming from every age , young players than before, this sport is becoming increasingly aggressive, and the serve is the most common way to show aggressiveness… putting aside the tactics and strategy in a second place
In the big boy version, spin is necessary.
Banning serves to help the inadequates feel better
Even with a drop serve spin could be introduced. It seems a shame to have a sport where a talent or athletic ability has to be handcuffed. If a strong server can so tremendously overpower his opponents, then it seems something must be wrong with the receivers, not the servers. Baseball took down the pitcher's mound 5 inches after the 1968 season. But that's all the tweaking they did to that and the hitters regained a balance.
In table tennis servers can spin all they want and it's incumbent upon the receivers to return serve. The difference is that it's possible in table tennis to return the best serves. If that's not the case in pickleball maybe the court sizes need to be reassessed?
Paddle generated spin has never been banned. The states that you can't pre-spin the ball before making paddle contact. Spin the serve all you want via the paddle. Just like TT, pre-spin is not permitted.
I've seen a lot of comments by people who don't know the rules, but insist on commenting, incorrectly.
@SanityReigns-pz8qh thank you. I do not have any Pickleball experience, you're right. But I don't think that makes my comment totally off the mark. Yes, in TT you are correct about pre-spin. Spin cannot be applied by the free hand initially, only by the paddle striking the ball. That you're saying this is the same in Pickleball is reassuring. Still, if spin can be applied by the paddle/racket in Pickleball, apparently it differs from TT in that this spin becomes impossible to return whereas in TT it isn't. All I'm saying is that it seems unfortunate that in Pickleball the skill of the athletes spinning the ball has to be handcuffed to improve the game. It seems to me another angle should be looked at to achieve the same thing. Court size, something.
@@garylshelton2463There are no prohibitions regarding paddle generated spin (paddle construction rules aside). Sure, there's always the return into the net or out of bounds (off the table in TT). However, a complete miss is almost unheard of, and when it does happen is usually due to some really funky bounce, or maybe a serve through "coffin corner" (the area close to the T at the kitchen [NVZ] and the service box), or just maybe a serve down the center line when the receiver is set up a bit wide.
They have to make it universal across these leagues first, then adopt the rule. Eliminating the volley serve seems to be practical. The height of point of contact deems to be up to translation based on human factor unless they can apply video challenge. This game is getting more and more popular, and with more prize money being distributed hence the cheater and pushing the limit...
I don’t understand how these serves don’t violate the rule that the paddle needs to be below the wrist at contact. Can someone please explain? It sure looks like it isn’t even close on that one guy’s serve. (And I agree with everyone saying the rule should require drop serve)
For 3.5 + recreational players, Is Any type of spin serve legal? The video was not clear to me.
Make it drop serve only. Padel serve is a drop serve, and I use a similar movement in pickleball. Simple
Drop serve, please.
Are you allowed to lunge inside court during serve? As in toss the ball inside the court and serve with the majority of your body inside court and one foot just behind the baseline, other foot midair.
Oi, don’t shit-talk the drop-serve, it’s my signature serve (; They call me the Statue of Liberty 🤭
Drop serve. People under-rate how much of a consistent weapon it can be. Lots of ways to fake it out as well
These people are ridiculous, the serve rules are basic and set… why change them… these “pros” are ruining the game
10:53 Scientifically, grit on a paddle doesn’t directly affect spin; instead, it increases the angle at which the paddle can effectively make contact with the ball. The key factor in generating spin is the contact time between the paddle and the ball.
I disagree. The coefficient of friction is higher between the ball and a gritted surface than a smooth surface. There are plenty of people who evaluate paddles that can show clear and objective test results of rpm generated by various paddles. I don’t disagree entirely that dwell time on the paddle is a factor, but to say the surface of the paddle “doesn’t directly affect spin” is not true.
Just No.
For rec players, the drop serve would save a lot of arguments and frustration.
I'll keep my Drop Serve!
Honestly the serve is hardly a problem right now. I watch ppa and it's basically impossible to ace someone. Have these people watched tennis? They ace all the time.
Drop Serve only and be done with the controversy and confusion
Buddy, You got it wrong. The waist rule does not say it must be below the waste. It says it can't be above the waste.
I dont see a lot of power serves in rec league, everyone is too busy trying to screwball or spin the serve
Much better to do drop serve so that there wouldn't be any other issues.
Until the leagues band together under one umbrella the rules will not be uniform and the growth of the sport could suffer
So what are rules for recreational play?
1. The server’s arm must be moving in an upward arc when the ball is struck.
2. Paddle contact with the ball must not be made above the waist level.
3. The head of the paddle must not be above the highest part of the wrist at contact.
@@bestiapickleball those are only for volley serves
They banned what type of spin you can put on the ball....? Where's the freedom of expression and creativity for the game. lmao pickle really is trash
Morgan Evans destroyed my rotator cuff
honestly i may be in the minority here but maybe it would be a good idea to just open up the space around courts considerably more
What if you take the ball out, if you play your “Sport” without ball, you don’t have all this “issues “ if you don’t concentrate, and you don’t look at the ball, you can’t play. Service should be below the shoulder and deal with it. Period.
The drop serve is stupid if you are considered a pro and can’t detect wrist motion or spin on a ball then you shouldn’t be on that stage each pickle ball association needs to come up with the same rule for the serve
Stop ruling out players that practice and are good. If you can’t return a serve then either practice more or dont play people that hurt your feelings because you can’t compete.
If you are going to make a game a professional sport, you need to let it evolve on its own. I already have a problem with the dang kitchen rule. Excessive rule making will kill the sport
Stop ruling out players that practice and are good. If you can’t return a serve then either practice more or dont play people that hurt your feelings because you can’t compete. Playing rec centers I play to barely win if I am much better than opponent. If they can’t hit my serve I cut out the spin or slow it down. If I ever play professional, I would try and serve every ball they can’t return. I would find their weakness and exploit it. If I can do that then don’t change the rules to prevent me. May the best player win!
Banning the spin serve is IMO the #1 piece of evidence against Pickleball being considered a real sport (not that I agree with it). You don't just ban something within the rules just because people complain about it when they're not good enough to defend against it! (Though I do support a bounce rule lmao, what a hypocrite!)
I've weaponized my drop serve. 😂
I don’t get it. I watch plenty of pro pickleball online, and I almost never see an unreturned serve., no matter what the rule. Some tennis players hit two aces every four points, and it doesn’t hurt tennis’s popularity. Developer Bar is fun to watch, because he occasionally hits an ace. The defense ready has the advantage in p ball, why not let the offense find a way to catch up? No spin serves of corse….that’s too much of an advantage.
Developer, not Developer…..spell check
Dekel. !
Have a new smaller service box. Like tennis.
I learned to play after the spin serves had been banned and have never seen them. But is it really that hard to return? In table tennis it's an intermediate/advanced skill to deal with changing in direction of the ball due to spin. For example, the "snake" shot ua-cam.com/video/LwQ0OBIci68/v-deo.html . This shot may fool club level players but will get eaten by pros and advanced players.
Don't worry, I got it wrong too......waist not waste!!!!
One rule, I want to be changed is the serve hits receiver's partner in Air before bouncing rule. I saw some kids trying the inside out curve serve with 100% his power and hit receiver's partner, he did not have a chance to move ...
drop serve sounds like a very good idea
Stop crying, and get better ! practice!
If were worriednabout asthetic, make it like ping pong, those serves look crazy 👀
Hey, Eric Tice, get a real microphone/headset. Ditch the ear buds.
its so bad and stupid you have to have a serve rules? also you'll should have a stoves in your kitchen, otherwise don't call it a kitchen if you aint cooking in it. lol.
ban all these random social media "pros" hahaha but really we need a rule change that stays and isnt "amended" a year later... paddles need to be limited at this point
Toddler Tennis! Pok Pok Pok Pok Pok Pok !!
"the serve shouldnt be a weapon" so dumb. thats why i play tennis
Spin serve was great, made the game more interesting/challenging!
Yet another reason pickleball is inferior to tennis. If you suggested banning a tennis serve because its spin or speed was too dominant, you'd be laughed off the court.
In tennis, if you can't deal with someone's serve, boo hoo, you either man up & learn techniques of dealing with it, or you move to a lower level where the serves aren't as dominating.
Drop serves seem fine but really it's just the character of players. Too many whiners in this sport.
As someone who played pickle-ball only twice, but is a table tennis veteran, can someone explain to me what is the problem with spin serves??? You can't respond properly to those?
Also, why when serving the ball doesn't need bounce from the floor? This should be added as a rule.
To sharp a break to return. Just turns the game into a serve contest.
I would like a provisional period to evaluate a new serving procedure that basically incorporates the only requirement on contacting the ball to be a certain height arc (such as done in slow pitch softball). The ball may be contacted in any manor as long as the trajectory of ball crosses the net with an arc range minimum of 6 feet with no maximum height.
Too hard to consistently enforce
All the “unique” serves go away at 4.0+
It’s all velocity with top spin, low over the net and at the white line.
3.0-3.5 everyone’s trying to slice like it’s table tennis. Or put a hook on it. That only gets you so far and I’ve notice it’s not consistent.
Drop serve done dusted move on
Just ditch pickleball and play touch tennis.
how about u feel a woman's touch instead
@@KenKneeSimply Respectfully, this isn't cornhub, please refrain from typing out your intrusive thoughts...
@ womp womp, hate when mfs say ditch pickleball and play some else, let people play what they want
@@KenKneeSimply and like the game itself, lacking class and and depth all together.
@@ianbuick8946 god u sound so snobby, touch grass while you’re at it 🤡
Hey, guess what. Us recreational players do not care about your millennial rules. We, and I do mean the plural, do not participate in tournaments stacked against lower players. We, again the majority of original players, play for exercise and social interaction. Not to showboat.
Too many opinions. Too many perspectives of the same vague and ambiguous rules. Too many contradictions and variations between the 3 PB leagues. Clean that mess up and the confusion will dissipate and all that we'll have left is the inconsequential argument of whether you like the rules or not.
"I dont know what unatheletic looks like", um sir please have a look at your local pickleball park and youll know very fast. Lets go full circle, tennis overhead serves should be introduced.
No, ban tennis overhead serves because they are too hard to receive!