Since I've been asked a few times, here's a running up-to-date list of Sony cameras that have the S-Cinetone picture profile/gamma included: a7S III, a1, a7 IV, a7R V, a7C II, a7C R, a9 III, ZV-E1, a6700, FX9, FX6, FX3, FX30
I purchased the Sony FX3 a couple weeks ago and been preparing the settings for filming music videos. I came across this video and I really like your quality (eye catching) and explaining of S-Cinetone. I will apply the same settings and see the results. Thank you again. Great video 👍🏻
@@andrewsaraceni thanks bro, I subscribed to your channel. Ended up watching more of your other videos which also taught me some stuff. Keep at it 💪🏻 I'm a fan
Thanks for your excellent video. With my Sony FX3 I found that using S cinetone just gives me so much less work in post and great looking video. As you mentioned, you can make some subtle adjustments in post. I’m probably not gonna shoot s log anymore. Thanks again
No problem, Art! Completely agree, most of my quick turnaround work at this point (e.g. weddings, private/corporate, concerts) uses S-Cinetone for the same reasons.
I shot with cinetone overexposed by even MM.2 and was able to bring back all the details back in post including the sun rays on the wall, I needed a bright look for this project. however MM.0 or MM.1 is perfect too.
Hello everyone! Unfortunately, there are some misunderstandings or too little information about what S-Cinetone really is. (Even Sony says relatively little about this...) First, every cine gamma should be corrected, because every cine gamma curve (Cine1,2,34 and S-Cintone) is a cine gamma, others as the the TV standard gamma, the Rec.709. Every cine gamma curve is a compromise so that you can show more dynamics or levels on the TV screen (PC Display etc) at the end. That's why S-Cinetone is so matt and has relatively little contrast, because has a cine gamma, a kind of a light version of Slog. As is well known, every SLOG recording must be corrected in order for it to look normal on a TV or PC display. That's why I always use the Leeming correction LUt for the S-Cinetone recording so that the brightness and contrast look normal like the Rec.709 standard at first, then will be the dull, flat colors are corrected or adjusted a bit. Such an S-Cinetone recording, corrected with Leeming Lut, looks much better than a "raw" one uncorrected S-Cineteone recording. See an example of mine, more contrast and more vivid colors with the Leeming Lut. ua-cam.com/video/34QPiZLKLaI/v-deo.html The Leeming LUT is very good and necessary when you want use the S-Cinetone PP. It cost only about 40 Dollar. The best and cheapest Investment for Sony user! This is my honest opinion, I dont´ get Money from Leeming Lut.
Good points, the Leeming LUTs are solid. I do think S-Cinetone is easier to "grade" compared to the classic Cine gammas, i.e. a little bit of added saturation and contrast mostly gets you a Rec. 709 look.
Hi Andrew! @@andrewsaraceni Yes, the S-Cintone is almost completely finished, i.e. "pre-baked". But be careful if you just adjust the contrast and colors (with the controls in your software) it is not technically correct. Because it's not just about the contrast and a little more color saturation, but to do the technically correct thing first. And that is first to counteract the compression that was done with the S-Cintone gamma curve, i.e. to correct it correctly in terms of measurement technology. Only a technically correct Lut can achieve that! Just like the Leeming lut. To understand the whole thing helps to know what exactly is compressed in the S-Cinetone curve. The luminance is compressed logarithmically, but as an "undesirable side effect" the colors, i.e. the chroma signal, are also compressed. That's why the colors are a bit dull and not saturated, because they have also been compressed with the luminance! To counteract this, one must first use the technically correct digital number boards, i.e. LUT. When the right gamma curve has been "developed" then the correct color correction can be made. And here is the correct color again, not the personal eye gauge.... For this task, Paul Leeeming has also a correctly decoded Lut for the chroma (=color) signal information, that was also compressed. The good thing about the Leeming Color correction Lut is that it preserves or leaves the original and intended Sony color sience, slightly softer film-like colors. This also proves how technically correct the Leeming Lut is. I have done many tests and could never achieve such good results "manually" with my eye as with the Leeeming LUT. So why should you try it yourself when something already exists that is very good and technically correct, goes very quickly and costs very little? I'm not only writing this to you, but to everyone who is reading this so that they can get the most out of the S-Cinetone. I like it and i use it. Greetings.
Great video. I really enjoyed your perspective. I am shooting an independent film and was struggling grading using sLog3. I'm partially colorblind and have trouble seeing red, green and brown. So I rely on what people tell me the color is. I think for me shooting in S-Cinetone would make a lot of sense. I am more concerned with the story rather than with a "look" anyway. I have Sony FX6 and Ronin 4D. Hopefully Sony Cinetone will match with Ronin. I'll have to experiment.
Thanks, glad to hear it was helpful! S-Cinetone should simply things a lot in your color grading workflow - I find it gets most projects 90-95% of the way there, with just some small tweaks after.
Good question - you'll see more green in those situations, but the green tone persists regardless. I've noticed it indoors as well prior to adjusting Color Phase.
this seems like the video profile for me......I don't like doing anything in post. I don't do much video at all, but all those other profiles frighten me with having to do stuff in post. I agree with the colour adjustment you made, I'll do the same.
Great content. I'll try Cinetone on my next shoot. What is your experience in low-light situations, especially indoors using only the mixed lights of a typical home? (Using a7s-iii.) I've shot exclusively on SLog3 and really like the dynamic range versatility. So how does Cinetone compare to SLog3 in terms of low light?
Thanks Ramon! S-Cinetone holds up well indoors also, especially using the a7S III. I have a few videos that show some of this in-use, e.g. such as for real estate video: ua-cam.com/video/2Fe6JLv5A6Q/v-deo.html
Is a variable ND needed for S-Cinetone or just SLOG3? I film mostly outside in run and gun scenarios. Travels/hikes/beaches/etc. Trying to master S-Cinetone before I move to SLOG3 but curious if I need a VND for potential exposure problems.
Truthfully with either S-Cinetone or S-Log3, you could get by without a VND if you don't mind issues/discrepancies with motion blur. It's more about the total light in the scene, and needing to reduce it than the picture profile, so it'd be useful (or not) in both PPs.
Yep, that's still my recommendation for the a7S III/FX3. Definitely varies depending on the camera model, but I still use a slight color phase shift even in other Sony bodies for S-CInetone.
@@andrewsaraceni Did you tested adding only +1 on color phase? I am seeing a little too red skin and wondering if you tested adding only +1 instead of +2 or if that does not remove the green look on skins?
@@andrewsaraceni Thank you again, I left it at 2 and looks great, just changed the Saturation to +4 and like the result, not sure if only +2 would be enough so I will do some test. Have you tried adding Saturation?
This was helpful. I’m New to Sony and have a fx30. The whole picture profile system don’t has is confusing. I came from a BM pocket 4k and it was a lot more straightforward.
Glad you found it helpful! Yeah it takes some time to get used to, but the PP system in Sony's have a lot of power/flexibility behind what you can do with them (and esp. the FX30 with Cine EI, loading custom LUTs, etc.)
Sorry for the stupid question but I'm a noob. Is s-cinetone and s log mostly only video purposes? Or is it good for portrait stills and other type of photography?
No problem, it's mostly for video. You could still shoot with those PPs for stills, but Sony has a stills picture profile (PP2, or PP Off in photo mode) to handle that. And generally, you'd want to shoot RAW photos anyway for the maximum dynamic range, etc.
Thank you for this video. I just bought the FX3 and I wasn't too sure about properly exposing for S-Cinetone. I didn't realize the FX3 and A7s3 had Dual ISO. Which can add a lot of noise to your footage if you're not using the the right values.
No problem, glad to hear it helped! Yeah, knowing the dual ISO values can make a big difference in terms of the image/noise performance in a lot of cases.
That's an interesting combination - can't say I've tried it (I usually keep Rec 709-designed gammas with 709 color, and same with HLG/BT.2020), but I'd be curious to see what it does.
@@andrewsaraceni those are low contrast profiles. I use a Canon R8. Not sure it has equivalent settings for colors and blacks as the video you linked showed.
@@aviatorman8 I add some contrast/saturation in post for S-Cinetone at times. There's no true equivalent on the Canon side, it's a tradeoff - if you go with a punchier profile (e.g. Standard, Faithful), it'll look good, but you'll lose some dynamic range.
@@andrewsaraceni that’s true, just as the Fuji film simulations aren’t available for other cameras. Def a trade off. Will use the neutral and try color matching in post with S-Cinetone. Thanks again and cheers from Seattle!
Thanks Alexis! It depends, but with S-Cinetone on the a7S III/FX3, I've still gotten great/usable results into the low 10,000s of ISO. But you'll have to test and see what works for you.
For those I used S-Cinetone/PP11 with the custom settings I talked about (2:36). That's basically true of most of the B-roll from different shoots in the video, except where noted otherwise.
Dude. I sold my a7s3 because I couldn’t get a good look and hated log. Bought an xt4 love the pink shift but hate the iso performance and AF. now wanting to sell that and thinking the a7iv. You’re the first to make that almost a clinch. If I love the pinks of s5, c70, and xt4 is it possible to get similar color looks in body of a7iv? I’m doing mostly travel, sports, mini docs personally not for pay - thanks! 🙏
Absolutely, you can get a great in-camera look out of the a7 IV. There's a bunch of examples on my channel (e.g. a7 IV Review for Wedding Filmmakers). S-Cinetone with some adjustments to the Picture Profile (e.g. Color Phase, Color Depth, Saturation) can really go a long way.
@@andrewsaraceni thanks Andrew! Neighbor in NYC! I’m a school teacher who’d love to create cinematic instructional videos, cinematic videos of my track team and personal videos of friends and family. Thought the Fuji would be it but I guess back to Sony ! If you could only have 1 lens to meet the above needs what would it be?
@@jaymills1720 You're making a great choice with Sony, again. 😀I think a 24-70 is probably my most used lens - it covers me on about 80-90% of gigs. The original 24-70 GM is pretty affordable now new or used, I have a separate review of it on my channel. The GM II is even better if you can afford it.
@@jaymills1720 If you're looking at the Tamron's, I'd still lean more towards the 28-75 or even the new 20-40. 17-28 is great, but IMO even in crop mode doesn't give you enough for "one lens" on the medium to telephoto side.
I've never had an issue with noise in S-Cinetone, but the gamma curve with every PP will be a factor... The Cine gammas are still great, I used to use Cine4 all the time.
@@mussietube9909 The ZV E10 doesn't have S-Cinetone unfortunately, but I'd check out the S-Cinetone match profile I talk about in the video (link in the description).
Since I've been asked a few times, here's a running up-to-date list of Sony cameras that have the S-Cinetone picture profile/gamma included:
a7S III, a1, a7 IV, a7R V, a7C II, a7C R, a9 III, ZV-E1, a6700, FX9, FX6, FX3, FX30
Thank you. Your explanation and perspective of S-Cinetone is a timeless treasure.
No problem Elliott, I appreciate that!
I purchased the Sony FX3 a couple weeks ago and been preparing the settings for filming music videos. I came across this video and I really like your quality (eye catching) and explaining of S-Cinetone. I will apply the same settings and see the results. Thank you again. Great video 👍🏻
Thanks, glad to hear this was helpful, and congrats on the FX3!
@@andrewsaraceni thanks bro, I subscribed to your channel. Ended up watching more of your other videos which also taught me some stuff. Keep at it 💪🏻 I'm a fan
@@geothearchitect I appreciate the sub! Will do, lots of more content to come.
Thanks for your excellent video. With my Sony FX3 I found that using S cinetone just gives me so much less work in post and great looking video. As you mentioned, you can make some subtle adjustments in post. I’m probably not gonna shoot s log anymore. Thanks again
No problem, Art! Completely agree, most of my quick turnaround work at this point (e.g. weddings, private/corporate, concerts) uses S-Cinetone for the same reasons.
Agree with your thoughts. Maybe sLog is more if you're into going for picture depth and art.
I shot with cinetone overexposed by even MM.2 and was able to bring back all the details back in post including the sun rays on the wall, I needed a bright look for this project. however MM.0 or MM.1 is perfect too.
For an in-camera color picture profile, it gives you a lot more DR and latitude compared to others, like PPOff / Movie gamma.
Hello everyone!
Unfortunately, there are some misunderstandings or too little information about what S-Cinetone really is. (Even Sony says relatively little about this...) First, every cine gamma should be corrected, because every cine gamma curve (Cine1,2,34 and S-Cintone) is a cine gamma, others as the the TV standard gamma, the Rec.709. Every cine gamma curve is a compromise so that you can show more dynamics or levels on the TV screen (PC Display etc) at the end. That's why S-Cinetone is so matt and has relatively little contrast, because has a cine gamma, a kind of a light version of Slog. As is well known, every SLOG recording must be corrected in order for it to look normal on a TV or PC display. That's why I always use the Leeming correction LUt for the S-Cinetone recording so that the brightness and contrast look normal like the Rec.709 standard at first, then will be the dull, flat colors are corrected or adjusted a bit. Such an S-Cinetone recording, corrected with Leeming Lut, looks much better than a "raw" one uncorrected S-Cineteone recording. See an example of mine, more contrast and more vivid colors with the Leeming Lut. ua-cam.com/video/34QPiZLKLaI/v-deo.html
The Leeming LUT is very good and necessary when you want use the S-Cinetone PP. It cost only about 40 Dollar. The best and cheapest Investment for Sony user! This is my honest opinion, I dont´ get Money from Leeming Lut.
Good points, the Leeming LUTs are solid. I do think S-Cinetone is easier to "grade" compared to the classic Cine gammas, i.e. a little bit of added saturation and contrast mostly gets you a Rec. 709 look.
Hi Andrew! @@andrewsaraceni Yes, the S-Cintone is almost completely finished, i.e. "pre-baked". But be careful if you just adjust the contrast and colors (with the controls in your software) it is not technically correct.
Because it's not just about the contrast and a little more color saturation, but to do the technically correct thing first.
And that is first to counteract the compression that was done with the S-Cintone gamma curve, i.e. to correct it correctly in terms of measurement technology. Only a technically correct Lut can achieve that! Just like the Leeming lut. To understand the whole thing helps to know what exactly is compressed in the S-Cinetone curve. The luminance is compressed logarithmically, but as an "undesirable side effect" the colors, i.e. the chroma signal, are also compressed. That's why the colors are a bit dull and not saturated, because they have also been compressed with the luminance! To counteract this, one must first use the technically correct digital number boards, i.e. LUT. When the right gamma curve has been "developed" then the correct color correction can be made. And here is the correct color again, not the personal eye gauge....
For this task, Paul Leeeming has also a correctly decoded Lut for the chroma (=color) signal information, that was also compressed.
The good thing about the Leeming Color correction Lut is that it preserves or leaves the original and intended Sony color sience, slightly softer film-like colors. This also proves how technically correct the Leeming Lut is.
I have done many tests and could never achieve such good results "manually" with my eye as with the Leeeming LUT.
So why should you try it yourself when something already exists that is very good and technically correct, goes very quickly and costs very little?
I'm not only writing this to you, but to everyone who is reading this so that they can get the most out of the S-Cinetone. I like it and i use it. Greetings.
Great amount of real helpful info, Thanks a million.
No problem, glad it helped!
Great video. I really enjoyed your perspective. I am shooting an independent film and was struggling grading using sLog3. I'm partially colorblind and have trouble seeing red, green and brown. So I rely on what people tell me the color is. I think for me shooting in S-Cinetone would make a lot of sense. I am more concerned with the story rather than with a "look" anyway. I have Sony FX6 and Ronin 4D. Hopefully Sony Cinetone will match with Ronin. I'll have to experiment.
Thanks, glad to hear it was helpful! S-Cinetone should simply things a lot in your color grading workflow - I find it gets most projects 90-95% of the way there, with just some small tweaks after.
By chance was the green tone simply due to the reflected foliage and grass all around her? Have you noticed the same green indoors? Thanks🤙
Good question - you'll see more green in those situations, but the green tone persists regardless. I've noticed it indoors as well prior to adjusting Color Phase.
I have an a6700. Would the Zebra lower limit be the same (109+) as you mentioned in the video? Thanks.
No problem! Yes, same settings still for the a6700.
this seems like the video profile for me......I don't like doing anything in post. I don't do much video at all, but all those other profiles frighten me with having to do stuff in post. I agree with the colour adjustment you made, I'll do the same.
Yeah it's worked really well for most of my run-and-gun gigs, I think you'll like it.
Com s cinetone não precisa fazer cst? Color space transforme?
é Rec. 709, então você normalmente não precisaria convertê-lo em nada.
Great content. I'll try Cinetone on my next shoot. What is your experience in low-light situations, especially indoors using only the mixed lights of a typical home? (Using a7s-iii.) I've shot exclusively on SLog3 and really like the dynamic range versatility. So how does Cinetone compare to SLog3 in terms of low light?
Thanks Ramon! S-Cinetone holds up well indoors also, especially using the a7S III. I have a few videos that show some of this in-use, e.g. such as for real estate video: ua-cam.com/video/2Fe6JLv5A6Q/v-deo.html
Is a variable ND needed for S-Cinetone or just SLOG3? I film mostly outside in run and gun scenarios. Travels/hikes/beaches/etc. Trying to master S-Cinetone before I move to SLOG3 but curious if I need a VND for potential exposure problems.
Truthfully with either S-Cinetone or S-Log3, you could get by without a VND if you don't mind issues/discrepancies with motion blur. It's more about the total light in the scene, and needing to reduce it than the picture profile, so it'd be useful (or not) in both PPs.
Thanks for this content and the dual iso vid. Liked and comm for the algorithm! You deserve it
You're welcome, and thanks!! I appreciate the support.
2 year;s; later, do you still suggest a +2 on color phase? does not it make the skin look a little too rose/light red?
Yep, that's still my recommendation for the a7S III/FX3. Definitely varies depending on the camera model, but I still use a slight color phase shift even in other Sony bodies for S-CInetone.
@@andrewsaraceni Thank you. I have the A7Siii so I will use it as you suggested. Thank you.
@@andrewsaraceni Did you tested adding only +1 on color phase? I am seeing a little too red skin and wondering if you tested adding only +1 instead of +2 or if that does not remove the green look on skins?
@@guerrerosdigitales I did, +1 helps but didn't quite push it out of the greens to the extent I thought it should (at least for certain skintones).
@@andrewsaraceni Thank you again, I left it at 2 and looks great, just changed the Saturation to +4 and like the result, not sure if only +2 would be enough so I will do some test. Have you tried adding Saturation?
I have ZVE1 and even with over exposed by +1.7 it seems more noisy than S cinetone in SLog 3. S Cinetone is just so easy and my go to.
Yeah it's great for an in-camera profile.
This was helpful. I’m
New to Sony and have a fx30. The whole picture profile system don’t has is confusing. I came from a BM pocket 4k and it was a lot more straightforward.
Glad you found it helpful! Yeah it takes some time to get used to, but the PP system in Sony's have a lot of power/flexibility behind what you can do with them (and esp. the FX30 with Cine EI, loading custom LUTs, etc.)
Sorry for the stupid question but I'm a noob. Is s-cinetone and s log mostly only video purposes? Or is it good for portrait stills and other type of photography?
No problem, it's mostly for video. You could still shoot with those PPs for stills, but Sony has a stills picture profile (PP2, or PP Off in photo mode) to handle that. And generally, you'd want to shoot RAW photos anyway for the maximum dynamic range, etc.
Thanks, just wondering why the A74 is not mentioned in this video?
No problem! I made the video before the a7 IV was released, but most everything should apply for that camera as well.
@@andrewsaraceni Sounds good, thank you..♥️
Thank you for this video. I just bought the FX3 and I wasn't too sure about properly exposing for S-Cinetone. I didn't realize the FX3 and A7s3 had Dual ISO. Which can add a lot of noise to your footage if you're not using the the right values.
No problem, glad to hear it helped! Yeah, knowing the dual ISO values can make a big difference in terms of the image/noise performance in a lot of cases.
What about using s-cenetone and bt 2020 gamma for hdr shooting?
That's an interesting combination - can't say I've tried it (I usually keep Rec 709-designed gammas with 709 color, and same with HLG/BT.2020), but I'd be curious to see what it does.
Thank you! Possible to get an S Cinetone on a Canon camera? I know it sounds ironic since Canon is reputable for a better color science than Sony.
No problem! The closest thing to S-Cinetone on Canon is probably either the Neutral profile, or WideDR/Canon709 on their cine cameras.
@@andrewsaraceni those are low contrast profiles. I use a Canon R8. Not sure it has equivalent settings for colors and blacks as the video you linked showed.
@@aviatorman8 I add some contrast/saturation in post for S-Cinetone at times. There's no true equivalent on the Canon side, it's a tradeoff - if you go with a punchier profile (e.g. Standard, Faithful), it'll look good, but you'll lose some dynamic range.
@@andrewsaraceni that’s true, just as the Fuji film simulations aren’t available for other cameras. Def a trade off. Will use the neutral and try color matching in post with S-Cinetone. Thanks again and cheers from Seattle!
Thanks Andrew. What are the base ISO's for S-Cintone in Sony a7IV ?
No problem, Dov! They're 125 and 500. I have a separate video on my channel that covers the a7 IV dual ISOs in more detail.
@@andrewsaraceni Thanks
thanks for this. I noticed the green cast also.. i will try plus 2 on the colour phase as per your tip !
No problem! Yeah the color phase adjustment definitely makes a difference.
Hi!nice video!which are the higher usable iso values over 2000iso??
Thanks Alexis! It depends, but with S-Cinetone on the a7S III/FX3, I've still gotten great/usable results into the low 10,000s of ISO. But you'll have to test and see what works for you.
@Andrew Saraceni thank you!!
Hello! With what settings and profile were these shots taken 07:51? Thanks.
For those I used S-Cinetone/PP11 with the custom settings I talked about (2:36). That's basically true of most of the B-roll from different shoots in the video, except where noted otherwise.
@@andrewsaraceni Thanks for the answer! Good luck!
well explained
Thanks, I appreciate that!
Great video. thanks.
No problem, Rick!
can you please male a video trying to male s-cinetine look like a graded slog3 ?
I'm working on a video around exposing/grading S-Log3, so I'll definitely make sure to cover that.
Dude. I sold my a7s3 because I couldn’t get a good look and hated log. Bought an xt4 love the pink shift but hate the iso performance and AF. now wanting to sell that and thinking the a7iv. You’re the first to make that almost a clinch. If I love the pinks of s5, c70, and xt4 is it possible to get similar color looks in body of a7iv? I’m doing mostly travel, sports, mini docs personally not for pay - thanks! 🙏
Absolutely, you can get a great in-camera look out of the a7 IV. There's a bunch of examples on my channel (e.g. a7 IV Review for Wedding Filmmakers). S-Cinetone with some adjustments to the Picture Profile (e.g. Color Phase, Color Depth, Saturation) can really go a long way.
@@andrewsaraceni thanks Andrew! Neighbor in NYC! I’m a school teacher who’d love to create cinematic instructional videos, cinematic videos of my track team and personal videos of friends and family. Thought the Fuji would be it but I guess back to Sony ! If you could only have 1 lens to meet the above needs what would it be?
@@jaymills1720 You're making a great choice with Sony, again. 😀I think a 24-70 is probably my most used lens - it covers me on about 80-90% of gigs. The original 24-70 GM is pretty affordable now new or used, I have a separate review of it on my channel. The GM II is even better if you can afford it.
@@andrewsaraceni wow thanks Andrew! If I’m putting it in the a7Iv does a 17-28 become more useful if I can also use it in APSC vs. 28-75?
@@jaymills1720 If you're looking at the Tamron's, I'd still lean more towards the 28-75 or even the new 20-40. 17-28 is great, but IMO even in crop mode doesn't give you enough for "one lens" on the medium to telephoto side.
Great content
Thanks!
Muito bom seus videos
Obrigado!
Good job
Thanks!
Thank you!
No problem!
new sub. thanks
No problem, thanks Vincent!
so much noise with cinetone!! i prefeer cine2
I've never had an issue with noise in S-Cinetone, but the gamma curve with every PP will be a factor... The Cine gammas are still great, I used to use Cine4 all the time.
S cinetone movie nice colors
I agree, it's Sony's most pleasing in-camera color profile in a long time.
@@andrewsaraceni i will try this on my zv e10
@@mussietube9909 The ZV E10 doesn't have S-Cinetone unfortunately, but I'd check out the S-Cinetone match profile I talk about in the video (link in the description).
@@andrewsaraceni i will check it thank you i have subscribed verry interesthing, what profile can i use to match nearly this color for zv e10
Who does a nice wedding then has pictures of everybody wearing masks?
So gross
Stop doing that, people.
It’s friggen’ weird