Every time I go back to try and go through the Japanese air tree, all the vehicles go up at least one BR step. It's only a matter of time until the A6M5 is the same BR as the F-4S.
I remember when I used to sweat the game 2014-2015 and I was playing the A6M2. I shot this one guy down (Arcade) then he came back, but brought a buddy, I took him out again and his buddy, then the buddy came back and I took him out again, both rage quit. It was quite fun. Both were playing American planes as well.
You: G55 Centauro Enemies: two Spitfire lf mk IX, A6M5, A6M6, A7M2 and a P-47D-30 All of them are on 3km alt and you are on 4km alt, what are you doing in that situation?
@@Creamin_All_Offensive im not aware of how much ammo the g55 has or its climb rate so id continue climbing while moving towards either the p47 or the a7m2 as they will be the biggest threat to you due to the climb rate. After you reach them just boom z zoom them them do the same to the others as they will have no chance with your energy advantage.
The moment GAJZILA buff 50cal F8F will go up and then they will nerff 50cal and F8F will be stuck in uptire hell. Firsts F8F is fun now at 5.0 but 4x50call is still weak .
Well there was a thing called US doctrine, Japs can turn but the Thatch weave will beat that, but when's the last time RB players ever tried to play realistic? RB is just there to be the budget mode creating the illusion of a faster grind.
WT models structural limit as 1.5 of what the airctaft has listed. Since you are speaking about earlier models that had 6.5G limits, with a6m3 and above having the wings redesigned, 14G limit is not that much of a stretch as it looks like.
I so hate the ufo stuff. I fly in expecting normal behaviour. Cue russian/british/japanese plane proceeding to prop hang and then accelerate to 400 kmh in moments. Or turn 180 degrees like it's nothing as you're diving them.
What you said about coming across a non-lobotomized player in an energy fighter, especially while in a zero, and how it’s basically joever for you, is very true. I remember once in my A6M5 Ko, I came across an XP-50 that wasn’t stupid. We were both at orbit but I was not as fast. Literally spent 10 minutes diving to pick up speed and evading. I kept trying to bait him to commit on me so I could reverse him but he never took the bait. He would just extend and then BnZ me again. This downward fight kept on going until I reached sea level, because I had no more room to dive and pick up speed, so I could no longer evade him. The fight only really lasted that long because the XP-50 couldn’t aim, he rarely went fast enough to be compressing. Its not like that XP-50 pilot was cracked either, as he wasn’t efficient on his passes, and so I was in a position to try to equalize the energy, however the engine is so weak that it didn’t end up mattering. It’s not like I was a super-goated pilot either, but I knew I was at least better than him.
A similar thing happened to me fighting an XP-55 while I was in an A6M2. except in a turning duel rather than a boom and zoom fight. He tried BNZ me initially, but I was good at dodging and he was way too cautious about flattening into the ground and kept pulling up early. After five minutes or so, he gave up and started trying to dogfight me. It was genuinely painful. I spent ~10 minutes chasing his tail, never quite getting my guns enough lead to actually hit him, but he also just kept turning at a steady altitude as if he would somehow have a tighter turning radius than me. Eventually, because his plane has better energy retention, I couldn't keep up and had to turn away or risk stalling. Was way too slow to do anything and after an uncomfortable amount of poor marksmanship he eventually set me on fire, since I was stuck running away. I don't want to say he was a bad player - it was a 1v1 with both of us being the last alive. We both had multiple kills (he had something like 6, I had 3 or so) but he made multiple clear mistakes and I just had zero opportunity to punish him for any of them because his plane was superior to mine in every way. Maybe that's why it's called a Zero, honestly.
@@gefallenerengel1306 I didn't stall, but got close to it. We were turning for an insane amount of time and he was probably just as close to stalling as I was at some points. The point is that the XP-55 has much better energy retention than the Zero in pretty much every circumstance I can think of, and in the long haul my plane's performance got progressively worse and attempting a recovery was an opportunity for him to shoot me down. I should also probably mention this happened a few years ago, before I spaded the A6M2 or had any crew skills - so my pilot wasn't able to handle the tightest possible turn. I almost blacked out multiple times in the engagement.
@@VynalDerp as an experienced Zero Player, Your main objective should've been trying to get him to overshoot. I've beaten many XP50 players good and bad, and I can say that the Overconfident good players will immediately forget they can play the long game with your Zero. They are easier to get to overshoot and reverse because they are too confident that they will in fact take you down before you can do anything. The Good players who are more patient and less confident however are scarier. They are definitely good, playing the long game, trying to stall you out, etc. It is easy to read what they will do based on certain movements, and you only want to commit to xp50s who try to stall you only about 30% of the way, and then turn and leave. The patient ones will probably try to regain lost speed and energy, meanwhile the ones who get tunnel vision will immediately chase. Of course with them at your 6 you got 2 options. Force them into a turn fight at dangerous ranges, Force them to over shoot while praying to god, or you turn back around the moment you see the xp50 start diving on you, and try to get him to miss his shots on you and overshoot. If you manage any of this you immediately win no matter what if you got at least decent aim, because it only takes like 1 20mm HE to rip the wing off that xp50. however if you miss, you are dead... 80% of the time.
Fighting Zeroes is very easy (at least for me) because all you have to do is dive on them and then pitch up and dive again. There is pretty much nothing they can do except try and keep turning, which just makes them slower.
yeah that's the exact thing that I did to them without even really realizing that I was completely denying them the ability to defend themselves pretty much. I mean that's what I was trying to do but I didn't realize it was literally just that effective against them.
Unless they're in a Ki 84 or N1K or J2M2, you'll get cooked if the pilot has any sense, zeros have weak engines, if you don't have altitude, your dead vs many planes with good pilots. Bfs, p51 etc, energy trapping is a thing.
As a zero player if anyone does this to me, rather than just turning till i die i just pitch up at them once they fully commit to the dive and gamble a head on. I rarely come out unscathed but better to take em with me than just wait to die, the emperor would approve.
the whole thing about turnfighters is that they put pressure on stronger players as they cannot get below them in their B&Z aircraft. The whole concept isn't flawed but I'd say that WT is meant to be played with at least 1 friend (who hasn't been lobotomized) and force enemies into a disadvantage or dogfighting with a turnfighter. Of course the entire concept falls apart when you get seagulled by 6 enemies at the same time but every plane can play an amazing role and the game wouldn't be the same without it (top tier is an exception, its mostly about the radars, missles and using your countermeasures correctly)
Or at least teammates who don't die to said zeros. Every match in my american props, I break off to sideclimb to 4 km. I look to the rest of my team - same plane as me, or similar playstyles... they're hugging the deck. They're loaded with rockets/bombs to groundpound. I reach 2 km and have to turn towards the crowd if I want to be present. I get there. I get a kill or two, I do defensive flying/disengage/lure. I open scoreboard. Last one alive. Enemy team is only missing 5 planes or so. Now I got a whole fleet of zeros/spitfires ready to eat me alive and there's no way I can deal with them. I'm nowhere good enough, if it's even possible.
@@Liniyka You forgot the poor J6K1 at 6.7br (Somehow considered equal to the Spitfire mk 24, and better than the P-51H according to Gaijin), and at this point might as well mention all the Zeroes at their current BRs.
@@KekusMagnus If that was the case, we should see the F82 be 6.0br at minimum considering it can use 14 50cals and has loads of ammo. Yes 6 20mm and 2 13.2mm with a good amount of ammo is powerful but no where near 6.7br worth considering its flight performance isn't even the best at that Br. At 6.0br, it was pretty balanced as despite worse flight performance compared to its peers, the guns did help make up the difference, though at 6.3 and 6.7br, that advantage is pretty much gonna since the difference in performance is just too large at this point. We have already seen that the argument of "overwhelming firepower" falls flat the moment any plane with really good flight performance comes along.
they are easy to learn because there is literally nothing to learn lmao you just hold down the s key and auto win any dogfight and if someone runs away you cope thats all there is, actually zero nuance
I've been playing WT since 2014 and I remember the days when I was an air rb main and they cared about the balance. My WT experience currently is playing ground battles and using the P-51C constantly searching for a pilot that doesn't suck so I can relive the high of the golden years of prop plane dogfights.
Unfortunately, I don't think ground battles are the place to do that. I frequently bring an I-16 to 6.0 in ground RB and get air kills with it. It's like they can't see you and they just assume they're getting shot at by ground AA when you start tearing them apart with stealth belts.
They're the only place to do that. Prop level Air RB is just dog piling with absolutely no thought whatsoever. Occasionally I'll find an amazing pilot on ground RB and we'll have a 5 minute 1v1 and then I have to wait another 100 games
Perfectly put. I'd even go so far as to say that we observe not only an overtiering of turnfighters, but an undertiering of certain varieties of energy fighters, especially "true" BnZ planes such as the He-100, the aforementioned P-51C, and the Ki-44-II. They are not necessarily entry-level aircraft, but they have such obscene carry potential for their BR they are what I'd call a "no-skill plane" with the only condition being to learn basic energy management.
@@cyonemitsu I just find it funny how Gaijin doesn't balance according to the best players but balances according to the worst. All the while they make no effort to make the playerbase any better at the game.
@@j100j yeah, lowest common denominator balance is pretty atrocious to quality of play; instead of creating an environment for players to improve themselves and build towards a healthier game state with a more competitive community, it instead incentivized sealclubbing, hiding, and bomber spam.
The Spitfire in my opinion is the best of the turn fighters in my opinion. Especially the Spitfire F Mk.XIVe at 5.7 is like the ultimate weapon against new players. This applies to pretty much any Griffon-powered spitfire, but this one especially. Its insane climb rate puts you above the enemy team, turn time makes you an excellent dogfighter, and your speed allows you to absolutely own any engagement provided its not a P-51 or something of that sort. Even the 5.3 Seafire holds up to this with its lesser turn time. Thats why I absolutely love the Seafire and Spitfire, so much fun to fly against pretty much anything. Sorry for the paragraph but I needed to dump my Spitfire opinions bc all my friends are tired of me telling them how good it is lmao
At least one model (idr which one) can out turn the Zero at high speed. You end up with wild situations where the Spitfire is trying to keep the speed of both planes up, while the Zero tries to bring the speed of both planes down. Honestly good spit vs good Zero are some of my favorite WT memories. It gets wild.
As a 109 pilot the spits are my nightmare 😂 Can't outclimb them, can't outturn them, can't outrun them, maybe can outdive them, but then you're at the ground and useless until you get picked up by some russian/American on the deck 😢
@@Schimml0rd Hey just BnZ us spit mains, the classic old tactic, ive grown so used to spitfires that when i change to a not so maneuverable plane instinct kicks in and i try to fly a typhoon like a spit and then wonder why i crash and burn.
Finally another Mk XIVe enjoyer. LF IX is overrated, because Mk XIVe just gives you that amazing high altitude performance which allows you to carry games and always have an energy advantage over your opponents, as well as superior manoeuvrability.
1:51 "At any speed," true, but worth note at higher speeds it loses enough manueverability (turn radius in particular) that spitfires can generally out turn them at a similar (high) speed, making engagements between the two very interesting if both players are competent. "Your gameplan always stays the same," that's an unfair overgeneralization, as per above for an example. As someone that played a _ton_ in Zeroes way back (you might even be able to find similar comments on very old videos), a plane that is too fast can be repeatedly dodged, essentially keeping their good player(s) occupied while your team shoots down everyone else. Against a fast plane piloted by a good player, the goal is to keep them busy and either bring them over your base, or outnumber them when their allies get shot down. If they can't track you, they can't kill you. The Zero retains energy extremely well in a turn, so you can essentially rebuild all the speed you just lost every time they reset, for a stalemate determined by teammates. Also, here is where knowing your opponent's plane actually does come in handy: few planes can nose over quickly. Some have poor aileron response, some poor elevator response. Dodge in the direction that it is impossible for them to get their nose on to you (with enough lead to hit if they still have good rudders). The thing is, the stalemated player will rarely attribute their loss to the necessary focus on the Zero (because otherwise you can kill their teammates faster), and instead to whatever player did kill them. As a result, the capacity for the Zero to simply never be tracked gets underestimated in the grand analysis. Angles fighting requires energy to maintain the turn, energy fighting requires angles fighting to track and not get tracked. The binary is misleading.
I haven't really dueled any good spit pilots in the zero, so I can't comment. Either way, the zero pulls like 13G when going fast, so defending against it in most planes is borderline impossible
@@Liniyka I apologize for the number of edits, I am commenting on a phone, so I can't do a partial comment and keep watching. Anyway, I'd reccomend sticking with the Zero a bit longer and really focus on exploiting the energy maintenance even more than the raw radius (which is ofc superior). The fact that you can turn so hard (at low speed) and lose so little energy is what really sets it apart compared to something like biplanes that utterly destroy their energy when turning hard. You can literally just keep going all day until someone loses focus or gets reinforcements. If you get reinforcements first, they're probably dead as they have to turn someone loose. If they do, you can duel more than one plane at once without dying.
One of my earliest great dogfight memories was of me in my a6m3 vs a spitfire (I forget the exact model, this was in early 2013). But it was him and I, both with 4 kills, and we were the last on our team. We each chased eachother, high and low, pressing our machines and their relative advantages to their limits for about 7-10 minutes, between islands, close over fleets, he used his more powerful engine to gain ground, but I would never let him take advantage of it. It only ended when I finally decided in a vertical maneuver to full commit, and I blasted him at about 0.8km above me, both of us nearly stalling out, and I hit his engine, setting him on fire, and ending the fight. I still have the screenshot from the moments after I landed that shot. Yeah, competent spit pilots can be hell for competent zero pilots. A lot of fun, too.
Agreed. I am still fairly new, with almost 1700 hours in the game, 300 of those hours in Zeroes, 600 hours in American Ground and Air, 200 hours in British ground and air, 300 hours in German Ground and air, and 300 hours in Russian Ground and air. However I can say that the Zero is a good plane in the hands of a good player. Defyn may not be the best War Thunder Content Creator to watch, however he taught me a lot of things about a lot of planes within many Tech trees. In the Zero it is a battle of intelligence, instead of a battle of brawn. The Zero loses in many spectacles of what other nations offer in their planes, however if you can use that to your advantage, you win 90% of your fights. The Zero is a very, very hands on plane despite how brain dead you could be with it. It can't retain energy in a climb or dive, nor can it retain energy in a high speed turn fight. however at medium speeds to low speeds, the Zero is a menace to any plane it faces. Hard to shake off, hard to out turn, and it makes sure you have your attention on it at all times, because 1 mistake means you get a clean 20mm HE round to the wing and you fall apart. And the part about energy retention during slower turns is very, very true. I've been able to continue turning with planes for long periods of time and even catching them in the long run, without stalling in a turn, or losing altitude. I can keep up at least 160 mph (I use MPH and not KMH) during a turn, which is pretty fast for a turn. Meanwhile planes like the spitfire will lose speed faster over time while turning. I've had times where I turn at speeds of 280 mph, and end up at nearly 120 mph within 15 seconds. However with my Zero I've never found myself to be under 150 MPH in a turn. I can start turning at 270 mph and still have 150 mph at my lowest, and that is usually only after about 20-30 seconds of turning. Within 10 seconds I've seen my speeds of 270 mph go down to 200 mph, which is truly the best. While the spit I've seen go from 280 mph to 200 mph within 5 seconds of turning. The Zero is impeccable if you are able to learn it.
interesting little fun fact, i main american props and while facing people who think they turn well with good MER but compress (like a zero) you can bait them into high speed and then scissor or loop they ass, their retention works against them and for a couple of moments there's not much they can do, it's a super risky move but fun, i popped a zero in a jug like this once
The zero’s (and some others) dive performance in game is just to good, they don't compress for some reason and accelerate why too well. They should have their dive performances nerfed somewhat and get downtierd to where they are actually playable
True, if zeroes had their IRL compression, you could easily put them at a lower BR where they would be a lot more competitive, but also less annoying to fight
A lot of older FMs just don't compress very much, newer gaijin FMs have more realistic compression. In the early days of WarThunder there was no compression at all and you could pull 15G turns with every prop in a dive and there was no g-loc either
This, they need to add tail flutter mechanics where you simply couldn't pull out of the twisted control surfaces. Also Zero's ailerons use slightly stretchy material for the wires, making them deflect at lower angle at speed due to the resistance.
It always is funny to see my fellow US players try to turn fight a bunch of planes that are better at turning. I just let them make their mistakes at this point and roll my eyes when they complain about it in chat.
Ah would like to boom and zoom but they fucked up the flight model of f4u4 Its funny how zero that notoriously compressed at high speeds doesnt and f4u which was designed for high speed manuevers does And f8f which was the most advanced, best handling, fastest prop fighter ever designed just flies like it had been taped together in a shed
I don't play air rb much but I do like play the p47 and space climbing before diving on some poor guy at mk 1 and then zooming out of there before anyone can do anything about it. It's the most annoying way to play air rb and I love it
@@tirushone6446 The p-47 is my favorite prop for this exact reason. If you know anything about BnZ it's almost as brainless as a zero but replace turnfighting with BnZ.
Using flaps in the Spit was making me cringe. Spit flaps are just air brakes and actually hurt your turn rate. They were designed to act this way so don't use them to try to increase your turn time because they don't. The ONLY times you ever want to use them when not landing is to flip over the top of a loop faster or when you need the air brake effect to keep slow in something like a scissors.
@@a0000a1234 It is true. They were designed to be air brakes as much as flaps, hence why they are the only flaps in the entire game that go to 90 degrees relative to the wing. When you test them with WTRTI they never increase turn rate, they only hurt it instead.
The flaps were broken on the mk Vc, I forget if trop or not, some patches ago in that they were impossible to rip off and actually were quite helpful, which led to squadron battles being full of Vcs since there was no point in playing anything else.
In the past, at least, if you were able to feather your flaps (keep them from opening all the way), you could get them to perform similarly to combat flaps on other aircraft, at least I'm pretty sure-you just had to be careful about letting them open all the way, at which point you were either going to dump all your airspeed in a hurry or rip them off. I dunno if that's changed, though; I haven't flown Spits consistently in ages.
I find that this video heavily overstates the capabilities of aircraft like the P-51 and P-47 series. While the P-51C can somewhat get away with this due to it being the second most competitive P-51, it holds true with most of them. I find that most people usually end up in scenarios where they may run away, but they can't really do anything more to you than extend out and waste time, and then turn back around and try to force a head-on which is risky to both of you. I don't get why people act like these aircraft are god-tier when they just suffer the same issue the Vautour had years back when that was the fastest jet in the game. You have someone on your tail following you to the ends of the earth, and you really can't fight back because you can't turn with them. Speed doesn't do much for you if you can't put it to use and actually do something decisive with it besides. Run to get 6km of separation (for aircraft like later Spitfires or Bf-109s) and then turn around to force a headon while you have inferior guns. A P-51 and P-47 will have an obvious advantage over you if they're above you, but most of the time they won't be there because you're more than likely going to be higher than them, or have parity in altitude, at which point they can't do anything but run. This issue is at it's worse with the P-51D-30. You may be able to tango with the Fw-190D series at low-altitude, but facing Yaks, Spitfires, J2M, N1K2s, Bf-109s and what not basically makes the plane a struggle bus, especially as you get into higher altitudes as those wings _really_ don't like the higher altitudes unlike the P-47.
this a giant skill issue as a whole "speed doesn't do much for you"-yes ,yes it does,especially in planes LIKE THESE which have what? Good energy retention(extremely good at high speeds) and good high speed handling characteristics are they possible to be countered by some planes? absolutely. But so is every other plane.
@@rendycoya I don't see how this is a 'skill issue' when that's literally your only course of action. I also never said Speed wasn't good, it's just that it isn't as useful if you can't capitalize on what you have because you're worse in every other way against your opponent. At that point all you can do is run away. If you have an altitude advantage or you come in where you can use your speed to escape for another pass or even to do a rope a dope, then this makes planes like the P-47 and P-51 exceptionally powerful. But when you have someone on your rear. It's literally just running away the entire time with nothing you can do. Even in one of Defyn's latest videos about the D-30, he had someone on his ass and he admitted that there's literally almost nothing you can do besides just run for kilometers on end and force head ons.
@@rendycoya What you say makes no sense. If I see someone at parity with me and I force a head-on because they're heading for me, but I don't reengage, they will double back and be on my tail. I can run, but I can't do anything against them besides separation. Even if I have over 6-7km of separation. The same thing follows if I turn away from the opponent to run. He will be on my tail regardless. You're literally going to have the enemy on your tail either way. You can't just magically be 'above them' or else your team is dead and the match is over.
I believe the problem lies in the fact that in war thunder, pilots can take 11+gs for several seconds with no consequences. This way, the player can turn and turn occasionally tapping back to reset the stamina making turnfighters planes with no real downsides but huge upsides
All fighters can do insane amounts of Gs, but those Gs come at the cost of losing all of your speed... Turnfighters tend to not have much speed to spare in the first place so that's all just a krill issue on the part of basically everyone playing the major nations
@@domaxltvthe problem is that turn fighters can pull insane G's, G'is that would probably kill a pilot IRL, to dodge out of the way of a boom and zoom, without any consequences.
@@domaxltv most turn fighters you see dominating the meta don't rely on sustained dogfights to win, you see them pull hard once or twice and getting a kill on the enemy. The issue is not with the planes, it's with the war thunder pilot being able to pull G's that would be impossible in real life, not to mention the fact that you can go unconscious in the game and STILL recover.
@@RecklesslyPessimistic Also, stalls are harmless. They prophang into a stall and then go back to 400 kmh speed like it's nothing. I don't think I've ever seen someone enter a flatspin or other hard to recover stall scenario.
The zero and pretty much every turn fighter is OP not because the planes are good, its because they are in this fast paced and super small maps, the Zero might not be fast but climbs fast and has a lot of energy retention Its play style if the p51 is boom and zoom, yours is Bait and Switch, you try to match their energy levels and use your maneuverability to do a reversal they cant avoid, usually the moment you turn the boom and zoomers will break and try to climb up, if you start the reversal with more or less the same speed as them you can quickly get in their 6 before they get away (if you are close enough that is) In reality in a 1vs 1 if you are in a zero and knows what you are doing you are almost untouchable until you f up or get gang b by the entirety of the enemy team
I think the reason I love the Italian planes is because of the nose authority, force a head-on and they'll break off early and won't expect you to snap your nose around and absolutely hose them down.
i was in my spitfire going to fake a head on against what i presumed was some italian junk, i go for the standard procedure to reserve him and get on his 6, but then im getting peppered behind me, i look back and the damn thing somehow got on my 6, i think it was a G.55b and i died.
Imo turnfighters being overtiered isnt nessecarily a bad thing. If they could keep up with other planes in energy and whatnot, most fights between competent players would end in stalemates or who gets lucky in the headon and be horrible for both parties. As they are now, at least there's progression in fights most of the time, even if it tends to be consistently against the turnfighter.
I used to play air back in 2015, I played the Zero and was probably brain dead. My go-to was to single out enemies, head straight towards them with them also facing me head on, then just before firing range I would bank hard downwards and try to get below them. I did this because if there were more than one enemy, the other enemy I'm not chasing would get behind me.
In my opinion, planes like the zero, ki43 or spitfire are rat planes. Sure you can run from them forever, but it’s near impossible to beat, if they pair up with a fast plane, that can catch you. Also, due to their low stall speed, spiral climb are extremely risky.
Ex-zero player here. There is a bit more to zero than meets the eye. Zeros are incredibly durable unless you get hit in two places - just behind the engine and inner wing so way you dodge require of you to move in as unpredictable was as possible usually modifying turns by varying your roll rate. This way you can actually 1v5 and get out of that victorious and as long as you don't get burning you can actually limp back to base with one wing, half a tail and/or no tail authority. Another strategy no one expects from zero player is MEC- zero is capable of holding it's max speed (that is just below wing rip) for incredibly long time using MEC as it gives you enhanced speed control and infinite WEP- on multiple occasions I was able to chase down players that didn't expect me to follow them into the dive and survive. Careful positioning is key- over 5.0 envelope of which you need to be aware of is a bit ridiculous as you needed to be aware of every plane within 3-4 km SPHERE around you as you engage your enemy and failing to scan your surroundings every 2-3 seconds will result in getting strafed in the middle of dog fight - which is a reason why I stopped playing them for fun- I couldn't keep up the regiment of scanning as I got older. There's more into this like mind games, head on dodging tactics as a way to engage your enemy but it's too much to describe in one comment.
@@ayylmao8901even during hay day of fiddy-cal it was true only when hit in described above areas. There's a trick to extinguishing most fighters - upside down negative pitch turn. Works 50% of the time but it will leave you with couple of minutes of fuel in best case scenario. Moust of the time it is useful to bait enemies and waste their ammo and time.
No idea where this idea comes from. Switching from Japan felt like a massive durability boost. Zero's get hit by the wind and shatter into 50 pieces. Literally any machine gun hit on the wing and the wing tears off. It's just that people are missing more when you're a turn fighter. It's like the whole 'Japanese tanks are high firepower low armour' when Japanese tanks have some of the worst firepower of any faction until late rank 3 when you get the homeland defence tanks that were never used. Prior to then, its tank destroyers have similar firepower to the US reserve light tank, while being a quarter as fast as peer BR tanks. The Chi Ha struggles to pen anything even when downtiered lol. When in peer tiers its got such terrible pen that a solid half the games lineup are just an automatic L + ratio since you literally cant even pen from behind.
@@fearedjames Without MEC you cannot use zero to it's full potential- It's Prop is optimised for climbing which means that proper prop pitch manipulation can really help you keep your speed at the edge of self-dissasembly. In fact their durability used to be much worse when fiddy cal was stronger (reduction of damage and range for "balance" purposes- or at least what geajin claims which suspeciously always favours yaks) and their agility higher (delfection angles where reduced like 3-4 years ago). For me it sounds like you lack proper discipline when it comes to throttle control. Japan when it comes to naval history heavily invested in SAP-HE rounds which where basically equivalents of mine-rounds from germ 20mm- not a lot of pen but concusive force focused on disabling crew. Very similar philosophy was used by jap tank guns which due to gajin never implmenting IRL chance to over pen or underpen with APHE means that usually pen= death by loss of crew. Yes 57mm is hot garbage and good canons are 47mm at low br (circa 2.7) and jap jap 75mm tank canons are generally decent for their BR with exception of Chi-RI II which is over br-ed. And if you wonder why jap 37mm tank gun is hot garbage- it's copy of 37mm Putaux french gun that moust of people never had a chace of suffering throuh due to all of rench reserve tanks being cut- and in comparison it's still somehow better.
@@radosaworman7628 I moreso mean that by the time you get to anything viable in the Japanese tech tree, you're getting to WWII experimental and post war stuff, and post war stuff isn't 'that' different in design. The issue is the same reason heavy tanks seem much better than irl. In real life, repeatedly taking non-pen rounds will shake the tank so hard it will start causing system failures and start giving the crew concussions. You don't need to pen to defeat a tank in real life, you just need to beat the shit out of the squishy things inside. It's why you get stories like how the 60 something Shermans all fired at a single Tiger and failed to destroy the tank. They didn't pen the tank true, but who gives a shit, the crew was totally and utterly incapable of fighting afterwards, and flopped out of the tank barely conscious enough to surrender, and their ears bleeding because the banging was so loud it blew their eardrums out. Not to mention half the systems inside the tank had been disabled and the tank was totally unusable. Basically all tank sims fail to reflect this truth, and so tanks are far more durable than they are in real life, and so basically everything before the homeland defence tanks (ie basically Japans experimental line) suddenly struggles to scratch stupid shit like the L3. (The L3 is actually a slightly superior tank in every metric to the fucking rank 2 Chi Ha and only gets surpassed with the Chi Ha Kai)
One thing about BnZ againt Zeros. If you do it wrong you can be punished by a good zero player (can not would) thats because a the zero have a super low stall speed so they can pich up 90° put their landing flaps and put their nose on you and click you out of the air. Do not take your eyes from a Zero, if he is an experienced player you can end in a constant BnZ loop for minutes when neither of you can do much until one of the two players commit an error. (I know this because i also used the zero but when i had already hundreds of hours playing the game and ended up with 3k/d with the premium zero)
When I first started war thunder, air interested me a lot. I didn’t mind getting destroyed plenty of times. But after reaching 4.0 I was struggling to get kills and even try to hold my own. Lost interest and tried ground battles. Now I found the arma series and never touching WT again
@@through-faith-aloneI just wish Arma had AI and AI commanding ability from Men of War/Call to Arms/Gates of Hell. I was playing GoH last night and the competence of the AI was shocking. It’s very simple, and they’ll do exactly what you tell them if you do, but left to their own devices they fight and move much more intelligently than Arma AI ever has. And the vehicle driving…. Mmmmmmmmmmmm they drive so well.
The reason why aircraft like the Zero Fighter always wins is not only because it is beginner-friendly, but also because of the game rules. Warthunder's maps are narrow and the time limit is not long, so most American planes are overpowered by Japanese planes before they reach a sufficient altitude. American planes are forced to climb while detouring, which is not only not interesting as a game, but also disadvantageous in many ways. Also, there are almost no attacks by coordinated platoons like in the actual WW2, and there are only a collection of solo players, which also gives the Zero Fighter an advantage.
Is it just me or has war thunder "realistic" battles flight mechanics become more and more arcady over the years? I haven't really played War Thunder in like 5 years at this point (and i dont plan on coming back), but i can remember zero having extremely bad compression at high speeds. It handled like a bus at anything above 500 kilometers per hour, yet in these clips it seems as maneuverable at high speeda as it does on low speeds, so what happened?
@@weewooheehoo2196 IRL the Zero would've locked up at way lower speeds, like 400kph max before complete loss of control. Zero pilots also had to be very mindful of ripping wings in a sustained turn above 300kph, which is not at all represented in game.
alot of aircraft like the zero wold snap their wings if they took on some of the G force that warthunder lets them which i always find crazy. using the zero really feels like using a really sharp knife it just kinda does the job for you, until youre given a rock then no amount of skill is going to let u cut it
It's pretty fun when the enemies actually get an energy advantage and try to BnZ me in a Zero. Baiting the enemy towards my teammates and friends, forcing them to dive to the ground or lose all energy.
You described the problems perfectly, a plane that is only good at one thing - Turning. However due to the skill issue of (most) players most fights devolve into dog fights regardless of the plane they fly which causes the Zero to win. As for the problem you describe with fighting against experienced players, I do get what you mean but I do usually find ways to counter it in various ways.
This is a video about the zero. You should have kept it to just the Zero, cause I don't think it applies to the spit or the reggiane. I am a re2005 enjoyer, it is the most fun plane in the game. These two planes have other advantages beyond turnfighting. They both have great guns (triple 151's for the win!), the reggianne has a reasonably powerful engine and a good stall performance. Many spits are superb climbers. An experienced player is not just at the mercy of a faster plane. Sure the other guy has more control over the engagement sometimes, but you can make yourself difficult enough of a target that most players will get frustrated and dogfight you where you clap their cheeks. If they're really smart they'll fuck off and look for easier prey and you can keep climbing. I get that you don't like turnfighting but that doesn't invalidate turnfighting as a tactic and turnfighters as good planes. The zero is overtiered because it bullies noobs who don't understand air combat at all and it has a motorcycle engine and here your argument has some merit.
Can't agree with you there. All 3 of the specific planes I mentioned are very similar in their playstyle - you either dive on someone and get a free kill, or have to chase much faster planes around in hopes that they are stupid. Re2005 isn't much different from the zero - if u see a good P51H player, all u can do is cope
@@rendycoya A BG109K-4 is a much better example than the P51-H. The Re 2005 is still a vehicle I approach with extreme caution because of how absurdly powerful its guns are tho
So am I the only one who kills everything in Spitfire? Like, You can BnZ, You can turnfight... And You Are Fast with great guns... What do you want more?
4:40 This is so true. I was one of those P51 pilots and i never engaged a zero in a turn fight. I always Boom and zoomed and if i made a major mistake i could hit the deck and leave their effective range in seconds because comparatively they were pathetically slow especially when the energy advantage was a factor. I'll admit occasionally a crack or lucky shot could get me, but i could reliably over extend my dive and just take a flat line for the first Km and shallow to steep zoom about 19 out of 20 times without getting touched as most zeros were so caught up with trying to dodge that not even their impressive turn rate was enough to bring weapons on me before i had already left their effective range. Being an energy fighter at an advantage is so rewarding because while it does feel like seal clubbing due to how helpless your prey feels, it takes so much thought and setup to achieve. When it's done the payoff is so rewarding. The issue i came across was that i never got good enough to be able to reliably win matches against similar aircraft. If i was in my P-51 and saw a BF-109 at a similar energy level i knew it was unlikely i would win, because my reversals, evasive, and aim were all not that great. I often missed really good chances for kills and though i would evade a bit, then i would fail to reverse repeatedly and still eventually get shot down. Overall it's what killed my enjoyment of the game and why i left.
It feels like the zero has been relegated to a scarecrow role, i stoped playing them becuase people just kept runing away from me and at their BRs every plane is faster so there is no hope for catching a running enemy.
But, like you mentioned the zero irl was getting destroied by F4Us, could you imagine a F4U wining a zero in a dogfight? There is something wrong with the plane stats themselfs, like the fact that they turn in 2 sec or dont stall.
As he said in the video, the main problem is that the zero does not suffer control surface compression as it should. That's how it gets away with what it does in WT.
You just explained half of Warthunder. My problem with low BR props is that the pubs are full of lvl 100 "Smurfs" who have way more skill then an average player who should play that BR, thus they gets snipped from 2km away.
The average player at any br is pretty much the same. At top tier it's usually one or two good players carrying a team of noobs who try to out turn an Su-27 while they're fully loaded with napalm and 500lbs.
How the fuck do you expect the lvl100 “smurfs” to start grinding other trees?? Im not giving 60 dollas for a premium jet and even then i love playing props.
I think the biggest thing about maneuverable planes is that they really click with the point and click method of playing. Energy fighting requires the skills to manage situational awareness with a camera designed to work best with turning aggressively towards whatever you look at. So they're the best planes at the game's default playstyle but lock you into it. I think it might be interesting to look at how the controls work to shape the way players play because in my experience the most important part of a flight sim is managing situational awareness, and the mouselook and turn being tied together like war thunder does makes it very counterintuitive and difficult to play in other ways.
The thing is Liniyka, If i disagree with you which you have before you call me a clown shoot down my opinion. Yes Zeroes are easy to beat once you figure them out, but dude some folks like the play style, to each thier own man.
@JohnJohnningJohnson nah he's basically calling out zero/spit players for being "braindead" when it's dipshits who take a p51 out and try to make it do something it was never designed for.
I've recently got tired of jets and decided to try another nation apart from my USSR and Germany, and picked Japan solely because of A6M. And got a bit disappointed for this exact reason. On ranks 2-3 Ki-44/43 ended up being way more interesting planes than A6Ms
completely disagree on that "requires on fighting lobotomized enemies to be good" line. I think it shows your personal short comings rather then the planes themselves. I play the shit out of that spitfire you mentioned, its one of my favorite planes. This is because 9 out of 10 games I have in it are good games. Knowing your plane and understanding how it works is key to war thunder. Turn fighters are amazing, but only if you understand their short comings and how to play them to your advantage. Which clearly you don't do.
"I think it shows your personal short comings rather then the planes themselves." No. It's the planes. This video is largely echoing what the best players in the game say/think about these aircraft. There is a reason that the A6Ms are called an idiot tax by a large swath of the best players that play the game.
Man the 4.7 and 5.0 Spits are so bad it hurts. You are so slow and can’t climb that everyone can just shit on you. Zeroes at least beat Spitfires at their game.
@kimjanek646 slow? Not really, unless you're fighting a 109. And yeah, they don't climb like the other spits do. But the key to the 4.7 and 5.0 spits is to play them like energy fighters that can turn. So basically thecsame why you'd play and BF109 F2
@rainsilent no the best players are not echoing what he's saying. In fact, we'd all agree that the engery fighters have an edge, but that edge doesn't mean turn fighters are mince meat when fighters a skilled player. Frankly that's just not true and again shows op has no idea how to play a turn fighter.
@@rogaldom4979 What's that suppose to mean? Unless you are fighting 190s? 190s aren't even that fast unless it's a Dora and then the other nation still have faster planes. A Bf 109 G-6 out-climbs them and is faster. Every plane beats them massively in climb or speed and they even have bad high alt performance. Who are you going to BnZ in a Spit that has nothing going for it other than turn rate and firepower?
It is worth noting that, compared to some other turnfighters (the Ki-43-III, for instance), the Zero is especially painful due to its wing-mounted cannons and relatively lazy ballistics... meaning that when you do have to pull for a head-on, you're playing with the deck stacked against you pretty badly.
its actually not that hard to kill an zero, you just have to use more than 2 braincells. Even a tank can outspeed a zero, use it in your advantage. And also, turn fighters can be good if you know how to play them, everything starts from the moves you choose to make as soon as you spawn. Btw ever tried the Yak-1B? A very damn good balance between turn and speed And about the "Just go for a headon attack" Who the heck claims that knows what is doing in WT and then throw this absurd garbage phrase?
from experience the Ki-43-I and II have managed to avoid this fate somehow, being good turnfighters and also being pretty fast for their BRs (in AAB at least, I'm one of those you mentioned that's too impatient for ARB) and is a pretty good allrounder for it somehow.
As well as Italian RE.2001 its also fun to turn fight and blast enemies with 12.7 stealth ammo, so br is even lower and you can outturn spitfire as well and use m.e.c to not get overheat...
as a zero player, when facing a better oponent there are a few things that must be done. 1: never dive unless abbsolutly needed, if they are above you you have to turn into their dive at the right time which causes them to miss, or turn and hit har rudder to the oposite dirrection which will cause a weird turn that makes the enemmy miss though(Bleeds a lot of energy so do it at your own risk). 2: if they arre ahead of you fake a head on and confuse the enemy(best done in pairs). 3: never commit to any fight with anyone disangege if your in a bad position better tpo have them chase you then deal with them boom & zooming you(most american players will chase and hold down the trigger as if they had unlimited ammo so be carfull)
The easy counter to dealing with boom and zoom fighters killing a zero is flying literally less then a 100 feet off the ground. This removes the steep dive angles one can take to hit you or gives the diving fighter such a short window to fire on you before they have to avoid an arranged marriage with the ground. This leaves them with far more shallow dives and less speed if they want longer window with guns on you. The trick for turn fighters is to always keep the fight below 100 feet. dont chase after a boom and zoom fiighter to long. Give a burst and go back to staying low.
I only play war thunder for ground but I've started trying to play air and it's so disgustingly hard. If I use a good turning plane I feel the circle lasts forever until someone third parties, and if I use a fast plane I get 10 hits and he just turns behind me and kills me in one shot. I don't know how to learn or get better when the same thing happens every time.
I could swear the zero compressed last time I played, some years ago. About turnfighting: if you pair it with a precise and fast cannon, and an experienced player, it's much deadlier against good players because you can kill as the enemy is extending/climbing away. While the zero has the worst cannons ingame, the upgraded hispanos in British planes are probably the best as they have the fastest muzzle velocity.
The issue I had with the fast turning planes is that they very often also happened to get above me despite serious side climbing, making it hard to get an energy advantage. The zero was particularly hard to beat in this respect, especially in American aircraft.
Yak-3 VK-107 will always be my fav. Good turnfighter and it manages to get very close to its structural speed limit in a straight line lol Not ideal for BnZ if enemy plane can go above 800 kph without tearing their wings though.
I remember how the A7M1 was a 4.3 when it got added, then gaijin decided it should be a 4.7 which wasn’t ideal but was workable. Then they bumped it up to 5.0-5.3, which just destroyed its matchmaking and made it useless. It fights planes that have every advantage over it and if not better planes, you have to deal with JU288Cs which just ruin the whole 5.0-7.0 BR range.
I know this is only two cents, if even that I am a bad player, I really am but the biggest thing in actually winning like in most other games is playing together. You do not want to take fair fights, you should make them as unfair as possible, help engaged friendlies out, finish of damaged aircraft, and try take 2:1 or 3:1 fights as much as possible. The low tier Bf 109s and Zeros are currently my favourite aircraft, as well as the Spitfires, I just seem unable to hit anything with nose mounted cannons, while the wingmounted mgs shred aircraft into dust.
You are right in what you are saying. But you didn’t talk about a fight between two turn fighters. Facing a good pilot in another turn fighter is one of the most challenging and my favorite part of the game. Both of you turning and trying to outmaneuver the other. I love it
A big problem in air rb currently is the physics model, manoeuvrable planes have infinite energy stores which they wouldn’t have in real life and energy fighters like the 109 can’t perform as they should because they can’t stall out planes that should stall before them.
Makes me miss the good old days back when the F2 Sabre and the MiG 17 along with the CL 13 and Hunter were the top dogs in the yard. It was all skill. You had to put together all of your experience from prop fighters to master those jets.
Ah yes. One of my fondest memories in WT. I found myself as last of my Team in a A6M2 at around 2000m altitude and was pulled into a dogfight with all 5 remaining enemies at once (Spits and P63s) as everyone was greedy for the last kill. The Zero won. I for myself love the 109s and I play them for fun, especially the 109E and G.
As a little fun tip, on most of your kills you turned in too late, for the leading shots. Lead your nose/plane more & earlier in the turns leading up to the kills. Pull more. The planes you used allow for that.
As an experienced veteran who only plays War Thunder for 5.0 instead of top tier, I’ve seen it all. I fly all the P-51s and I have over 1200 hours in the P-51D-30 alone and the best way I dispatch of an A6M is by bullying them to submission with pure speed, rate fighting and energy tactics. It may not make sense at first but US aircraft are actually the kryptonite to japanese planes, many of them are made specifically to counter some of them. U.S players just need to learn to adapt to new strategies and gain experience. A6Ms are easy food for something like an F4U
the only thing that is absolute when it comes to air to air combat is that there are no absolutes. it is NOT impossible to win a dogfight against a zero. some yaks, some spitfires, the Ta-152H some Bf-109s and afew others can out turn a zero. i have yet to beat the early zeros in a dogfight but the A6M5s and A6M6s can be beat. i personal have won a prolonged dogfight with an A6M5 in the Bf-109K-4 by using landing flaps in a one circle and i have repeated it afew times. its hard, extremely unlikely, and you need several thousand hours in the game, but its possible
Japanese planes are godly in Ground RB. You are almost the equivalent of a pantsir around 3.3-6.7. The turn rate and the air belt of the 12.7mm is just perfect.
It always baffles me how many players in this game don’t know about using a speed advantage against a slower but better turning opponent. Also you can beat faster planes like the P-51, like you said with a head-on. The trick is turning away as late as possible after firing a burst that correlates to how risky you want to play (full commit if you don’t care about risk). Speaking of which, maybe an in depth video on how to perform head-ons would be good. Go into depth of when to pull off, where to aim, how inverting in a head on in some planes is basically an instant win button, etc.
Yak-3s are planes on which i learned dogfighting , basic yak-3 turn well and has a SHVAK with very good damage, yak-3p is an yak-3 with triple super SHVAK , yak-3u is a turnfighter yak , yak-15s are just yak-3s with 23mm gun and a jet engine attached
I always feel like everyone has a completely different experience from me in this game. The third part of this video perfectly explains why I just can't play the zero in air rb. it's painful
Due to this video, there's going to be so many more 'put mouse on plane' zeroes trying to mindlessly nose up for my corsair. Thanks for the free kills!
I remember years ago, when I stll played, a6m5 was great fun to fly but the cannons somehow just gently petted the target aircraft while anything could turn you into a flying grease fire.
In general, the powerlevel goes like this: high skill player in fast planes >= high skill player in turny planes > low skill player in turny planes > low skill player in fast planes. Why the '>=' ? Two skilled players can force a stalemate on each other, even if one has the faster plane. If you make yourself nigh impossible to hit, your attacker will start to need to take more risk. Take too much risk, and you end up dead, and that applies to all sides, whether you are in a turn or energy fighter, and whether you're in an energy advantage or disadvantage. In the end, it all comes down to pilot skill. If both have no skill, then it's about basic flight capabilities of the machines. I will give an example: I fought a skilled XP-50 player (good KD across many planes, kept his energy during the fight) while I was in a BF-109 B-1 (turns well, pulls 13g at high speed, low top speed and climbs poorly). He may have had the superior plane, but I made myself extremely hard to hit. With each attack by the XP-50 I made my dodges closer and closer to his gun solution. Eventually the XP-50 overextended and I placed some good hits with the 7.92mm guns, and finally he tried running away from me, but I caught up using the interception path.
What you said about dogfighting skills becoming less relevant is so true. My account got gaijin'd so I just recently started playing again and since I never flew the Japanese, I started playing. My K/D is almost 3, my win percentage is over 63%. I am not this good in any other games. But the majority are flying like they have an extra chromosome, being on the deck in a fighter without even ground pounding. BACK IN THE DAY when Air RB had axis vs. allies, you had to side climb in a Bf 109 and the allied planes knew this. Getting an actual fighter vs. fighter kill was a 50/50 since everyone knew something (and I was young and stupid). Today I see people in mustangs and corsairs spraying and praying on the deck and I need to dive down in my Ki-100 to give a small love tap of 20mm's to finish the job. One thing you did not mention is the fact that the ammunition is quite low in the end. The zeros, Ki-43's and Ki-61 teach you to actually aim and acquire the target properly. With enough skill you can send 3 or even 4 fighters to the hangar before you need to reload your cannons. Skilled trigger discipline is obviously rewarded by getting more time in the air, but the dopamine zoomers could benefit from an immediate reward. I know it would be hard to program, but on the other hand there's already a reward for multistrike so it is possible. Thank you for making a great video.
Maneuverable planes also overperform due to accurate mouseaim. The fact is, IRL no one was taking shots at enemy fighters outside of 500m. But if you make a BnZ pass on a Zero or Spitfire and are zipping away, it's not uncommon for me to snap back around and shoot a dodging plane from 1.5-2km away. The speed or energy fighter can choose to maneuver harder to make it difficult for me to hit them, but then they're slowing themselves down and throwing away the whole point of their aircraft. If you play Sim instead, this isn't an issue as few people can get guns on target accurately from such ranges.
I find sim to be the opposite. Joystick aim and shorter engagement ranges makes dogfighting more effective as opposed to BnZ. The A7M is like the most op plane in sim.
Honestly its funny to see that the average player is responsible for the erroneous design choices gaijin makes due to their own inability to play the game in an intelligent manner. Like I watched PhlyDaily videos way back in the day to learn how to fly planes better and more effectively. Today though I guess people just don't really care about the actual skillful part of warthunder and just focus on top tier, which admittedly when I started playing, the F2 Sabre and Mig 17 were the top of the bunch so knowing how to dogfight was an important skill to take into top tier, now though its just missile buses and who has the better radarr arrangement. Side climbing used to be a thing too back in the day to actually get altitude over your enemies and make fights interesting because if you spent the extra 5 minutes climbing to have advantage over a zero you were rewarded, nowadays though all the game is people doing head ons and turning.
One thing I must add, that actually is in favor of the zero and other turn fighters, is WT’s physics engine. While okay, the physics in the game promote turning ability much more than it does other factors like speed. I’ve noticed this throughout my years playing different games. First WT, then IL2, Now DCS WW2. The spitfire, mustang, and 109 are all in game. And at least there, speed is the biggest advantage one can get. It borders on stupid how effective being faster is. Turning is great, but you can alway just pitch up and make the enemy stall. WT it’s a bit different tho. There’s something about the physics that makes aircraft slow down much faster than they should due to drag, especially in climbs. This leads to some rather… less than savoury moment when you BnZ some guy only for him to instantly turn around and start catching you even though you’re still extending your dive. Doesn’t happen all the time and it’s not with one particular plane, but it’s just a general detail I’ve noticed.
Also I think that the skilled players on good planes will always have an advantage, it’s just Zero has some fighting chances against them, while most other planes will just die without a chance to fight back in this case.
nah. when an energy fighter tries to pull back up in fact is the best time for a zero to strike. as long as ur aim is true. a re-climbing energy fighter is at its weakest state after a dive on you. if u manage to maintain the defensive flight. they are simply dead. Ur agility simply gives u the easiest switch card I grinded the whole Chinese (cuz it has USA and Russian planes) and Japanese air just by tech tree. the zero in fact is the plane where I use to learn how to aim my guns. Nowerdays I still use my guns a lot and basically never really miss in 11.7+ air rb. however I still would suggest to stick to maximum of 11.0 thou. cuz Top-top tier air RB which is like 11.7-12.7 now is basically IRCCM missile spam. not fun at all
I disagree on the point that Zero becomes useless against skilled players, on the contrary, it’s very interesting to fight against said players, because you need to think about tactics, how to trick the enemy into making a mistake. If the enemy goes head on, you need to stealthily dodge his shots until the last moment and then fire at point blank, when the enemy is starting to maneuver out of the head on, or you need to perfectly count time to turn around to get on the enemy 6 within a hundred meters of them after the head on. If the enemy is attacking from above, you need to dodge him at the last moment, so he won’t have time to run away, or you can start to dive and if the enemy will follow, then you can take advantage of your lighter plane to turn around and again get on the enemies 6. Finally, sometimes you can go with them head on, but this is the desperation tactics, if your plane was critically damaged during all the previous attacks.
The only kills against Hurricanes bu ki 43 and zero's in Burma was ground straffing. The Hurricane pilots said that the planes were roughly equal but the zero could not follow in any dive as multiple Hurricane pilots said that if the zero tried to follow their wings world fold over the canopy forming a coffin for the pilot. There are combat reports of Hurrricane v spitfire v 109. The Hurricane could reverse a 109 in 4 turns and spitfire in not much more . Hurricane was superb. Throughout a turn the Hurri pilot always had view of the target while the spitfire would not this was due the camber of the Hurricane from cockpit to nose.
4:00 But that's what makes the zero so much fun. Fighting a skilled player while they have the altitude advantage is a test of skill for both of us. It feels like a real dogfight. It forces you to learn how to snipe. Also, when in a head on with a zero, remember, that's what I want you to do. Again, I've been forced to learn how to snipe. I'll shoot small bursts around 1km then I set up for my reversal. When diving a zero be very careful. You're moving really fast in a dive and you can't turn as well. That's what I want, the greater the dive, the better. I can easily turn to make you overshoot make you loose speed or spring my reversal. What ever you do, don't lower your throttle. Yes, you can slow down and try to get a shot on me. However, the less speed you have, more likely you have to turn fight me. The only REAL way to kill a zero is a 2+ Vs 1. Don't underestimate a zero. It's still dangerous to fight a compitant zero in a 2 vs 1. It's also really fun to fight these 2+ vs 1. It feels like being a samurai from those black and white fims. There are a dozen of enemies surrounding you, hand on your sheath. The silence, the tension. An enemy charges! Slash! He's down. A moment of silence. Suddenly they they all charge. Slash! Another goes down. From behind! Slash, slash! Two more. You doge, slash! You bob a weave. Slash! A lucky hit. You feel the blood trickle down your leg, you can't move as well. That doesn't matter. It's all or nothing! Banzai! Slash! Another goes down. Slash, a hit on you. Slash, slash, slash, slash! Suddenly, the enemy backs off. You can't move. But you're still standing. A whistle. Hundreds of archers appear from the roof tops bows drawn. You ready yourself. Then it happens, you swing your sword has hundreds of arrows fly to you. You feel them peirce your body. You still stand. The enemy marches closer to you again. You ready yourself, but somethings wrong. You can't fell your arm. Your legs suddenly give out. Fighting them, you slowly slump to the ground. No. Not yet. The enemy lowers their weapons. It's hard to breathe. You can't seem to keep your eyes open. You stain your eye lids open but the darkness surrounds you. Slowly and quietly, everything goes black. You die a warriors death. You took down six players while wounding a few more. ANYWAY. When I'm not flying the zero, I'm using the 51, 109s, and yaks. If you don't climb, you lose. If your team doesn't climb, you lose. Most of the games I lost was when my team didn't climb. I'm all alone in a 109 at 4000m against, 3 p-38s, a xp-50x, and 2 51s, while my whole team decided it was a good idea to rush a random a-20 flying at 500m. All you could hear was. "Mine! Mine! Mine! Miiiine!" The zeros weren't there to take them out. The enemy team just has a fun day BnZ. The zero doesn't really break the game. It's players not knowing how to fly or fight properly. They don't know how to fight a zero. Why its a really bad idea to rush ground attackers at the beginning of a match. How to defend against a BnZ attack. Why you can't just fly straight up and expect to shoot down a 109 who has both alt and speed. Like my guy, I HAVE ALT. You're going to stall and I'm going to have a free kill. We just need to teach these guys on what to/ not to do.
Playing the Zero can be also a good way to learn how to do Reversals, atleast when I had flown them many years ago around the time in 2016/17 in those US vs JP matches on pacific isles maps back then when a P-51 or P-38 player actually used the strenghts of their aircraft over you and you had those really pressuring moments of anticipating their BnZ maneuver and counter acting it, then you suddenly need to become ressourceful with the Zero and it is incredibly fun, imho when you're put up to a test to a proper fight against a ressourceful P-38 pilot you will experience a sense of dread and patience you wont have otherwise. I wouldnt say the Zero would be completely Meta irrelevant, just getting properly tiered against P-38s, early Mustangs and Spits as she should be accordingly. WT is also due to its nature of all players going f all, not good in portraying squadron tactics such as the americans used when still using the Wildcat, because the Wildcat while oftenly being described as outclassed was actually decent enough against the early Zeros, especially when uses with the Stash formation which I often saw in squadron battles / clan wars ingame. I would love to see properly acting Wildcat and Hellcats vs Zero fights.... To be honest the phenomena you described also aligns perfectly with the chinese I-16 Type 28 with 20mm. By all means a horrendous aircraft, but due to its turn rate and cannons on such a low BR, you just smack unseasoned players.
The Zero is the perfect plane for other pilots to pratice BnZ on, and play the point system/objectives. This plane is easier to beat then a XP50 DO355 P51H F2G F4U SpitIX Yak3 and many more.
The only reason that the zero, and other similarly maneuverable planes can actually do well is just because the average person you fight will just try to turn fight you. Which is absolutely stupid. Yet more often than not, stuff like I-225s or P47s will just try to turn with you. All they have to do is play energy, yet they just decide to hold the elevator key. It's quite hilarious. And then, when I see a zero in the match, I don't really have any issue taking them out in most planes, because you can just out energy them in pretty much anything that doesn't out turn them. So yeah, basically what you said in the video. I also agree that they aren't very fun to play.
the worst situation you can get in with a zero or against it, is like what happened to me last time I played Air RB. The zero player was smart, but so was I. I was in a I-185, so speed was my card, but the turn rate was dogshit. Was stock too. Guy waited me to dive on him, when I was close he done a 180, I couldn't get guns on him, so I followed up to mid turn and then fly away to recover speed and altitude. Ended a draw, I won on tickets.
Every time I go back to try and go through the Japanese air tree, all the vehicles go up at least one BR step. It's only a matter of time until the A6M5 is the same BR as the F-4S.
Next thing you know, they're fighting Tomcats
Well the A6M5 can absolutely outturn a Phantom
honestly, put the a6m5 against the average F-4S wallet warrior, and you'll probably see it go beyond the phantom within the week
@@Blearu they should make a movie about that...
@@icaindianen 💀
I remember when the A6M5 was 4.3, i would just rush the enemies at 3km and doing 1v5 with the objective of simply "SURVIVE" was so much fun
its is still the same even now its at 5.0 i have a vid on me balling in the a6m5 on my channel
I think 4.7 was where it should've stayed tbh.
I remember when I used to sweat the game 2014-2015 and I was playing the A6M2. I shot this one guy down (Arcade) then he came back, but brought a buddy, I took him out again and his buddy, then the buddy came back and I took him out again, both rage quit. It was quite fun. Both were playing American planes as well.
You: G55 Centauro
Enemies: two Spitfire lf mk IX, A6M5, A6M6, A7M2 and a P-47D-30
All of them are on 3km alt and you are on 4km alt, what are you doing in that situation?
@@Creamin_All_Offensive im not aware of how much ammo the g55 has or its climb rate so id continue climbing while moving towards either the p47 or the a7m2 as they will be the biggest threat to you due to the climb rate. After you reach them just boom z zoom them them do the same to the others as they will have no chance with your energy advantage.
You notice how god the current player base is when you see a fucking F8F Bearcat at 5.0 and 2 fucking Zeros at 5.3
The moment GAJZILA buff 50cal F8F will go up and then they will nerff 50cal and F8F will be stuck in uptire hell.
Firsts F8F is fun now at 5.0 but 4x50call is still weak .
4.7 now 💀
@@moxie_ST Nah mate, American freedom cals are already WAY too powerful. They definitely don't need another buff.
@@John.McMillan bullshit!
They need a buff, especially the M2s.
The F6F hellcat had an 18:1 K/D vs zeroes btw and the Zero's IRL structural limit was about 6.5G. In game it just UFOs and pulls 14G lmao
Well there was a thing called US doctrine, Japs can turn but the Thatch weave will beat that, but when's the last time RB players ever tried to play realistic? RB is just there to be the budget mode creating the illusion of a faster grind.
WT models structural limit as 1.5 of what the airctaft has listed. Since you are speaking about earlier models that had 6.5G limits, with a6m3 and above having the wings redesigned, 14G limit is not that much of a stretch as it looks like.
@@ФёдорКоваль-ф7э 10G vs 14G is a huge difference
@@ФёдорКоваль-ф7э My brother in Bushido, 1.5 x 6.5 = 9.75; 14G is absolutely a stretch
I so hate the ufo stuff. I fly in expecting normal behaviour. Cue russian/british/japanese plane proceeding to prop hang and then accelerate to 400 kmh in moments. Or turn 180 degrees like it's nothing as you're diving them.
What you said about coming across a non-lobotomized player in an energy fighter, especially while in a zero, and how it’s basically joever for you, is very true.
I remember once in my A6M5 Ko, I came across an XP-50 that wasn’t stupid.
We were both at orbit but I was not as fast.
Literally spent 10 minutes diving to pick up speed and evading. I kept trying to bait him to commit on me so I could reverse him but he never took the bait. He would just extend and then BnZ me again.
This downward fight kept on going until I reached sea level, because I had no more room to dive and pick up speed, so I could no longer evade him.
The fight only really lasted that long because the XP-50 couldn’t aim, he rarely went fast enough to be compressing. Its not like that XP-50 pilot was cracked either, as he wasn’t efficient on his passes, and so I was in a position to try to equalize the energy, however the engine is so weak that it didn’t end up mattering. It’s not like I was a super-goated pilot either, but I knew I was at least better than him.
A similar thing happened to me fighting an XP-55 while I was in an A6M2. except in a turning duel rather than a boom and zoom fight. He tried BNZ me initially, but I was good at dodging and he was way too cautious about flattening into the ground and kept pulling up early. After five minutes or so, he gave up and started trying to dogfight me. It was genuinely painful. I spent ~10 minutes chasing his tail, never quite getting my guns enough lead to actually hit him, but he also just kept turning at a steady altitude as if he would somehow have a tighter turning radius than me. Eventually, because his plane has better energy retention, I couldn't keep up and had to turn away or risk stalling. Was way too slow to do anything and after an uncomfortable amount of poor marksmanship he eventually set me on fire, since I was stuck running away.
I don't want to say he was a bad player - it was a 1v1 with both of us being the last alive. We both had multiple kills (he had something like 6, I had 3 or so) but he made multiple clear mistakes and I just had zero opportunity to punish him for any of them because his plane was superior to mine in every way. Maybe that's why it's called a Zero, honestly.
@@VynalDerpif you found yourself in a stall - you made some mistakes too.
happens to me constantly when I face I-225s in the A6M5
@@gefallenerengel1306 I didn't stall, but got close to it. We were turning for an insane amount of time and he was probably just as close to stalling as I was at some points. The point is that the XP-55 has much better energy retention than the Zero in pretty much every circumstance I can think of, and in the long haul my plane's performance got progressively worse and attempting a recovery was an opportunity for him to shoot me down.
I should also probably mention this happened a few years ago, before I spaded the A6M2 or had any crew skills - so my pilot wasn't able to handle the tightest possible turn. I almost blacked out multiple times in the engagement.
@@VynalDerp as an experienced Zero Player, Your main objective should've been trying to get him to overshoot. I've beaten many XP50 players good and bad, and I can say that the Overconfident good players will immediately forget they can play the long game with your Zero. They are easier to get to overshoot and reverse because they are too confident that they will in fact take you down before you can do anything. The Good players who are more patient and less confident however are scarier. They are definitely good, playing the long game, trying to stall you out, etc. It is easy to read what they will do based on certain movements, and you only want to commit to xp50s who try to stall you only about 30% of the way, and then turn and leave. The patient ones will probably try to regain lost speed and energy, meanwhile the ones who get tunnel vision will immediately chase. Of course with them at your 6 you got 2 options. Force them into a turn fight at dangerous ranges, Force them to over shoot while praying to god, or you turn back around the moment you see the xp50 start diving on you, and try to get him to miss his shots on you and overshoot.
If you manage any of this you immediately win no matter what if you got at least decent aim, because it only takes like 1 20mm HE to rip the wing off that xp50. however if you miss, you are dead... 80% of the time.
Fighting Zeroes is very easy (at least for me) because all you have to do is dive on them and then pitch up and dive again. There is pretty much nothing they can do except try and keep turning, which just makes them slower.
Yeah, BnZ as I described. You just have to be careful not to commit too much to the attack, or they might reverse you
yeah that's the exact thing that I did to them without even really realizing that I was completely denying them the ability to defend themselves pretty much. I mean that's what I was trying to do but I didn't realize it was literally just that effective against them.
Unless they're in a Ki 84 or N1K or J2M2, you'll get cooked if the pilot has any sense, zeros have weak engines, if you don't have altitude, your dead vs many planes with good pilots. Bfs, p51 etc, energy trapping is a thing.
As a zero player if anyone does this to me, rather than just turning till i die i just pitch up at them once they fully commit to the dive and gamble a head on. I rarely come out unscathed but better to take em with me than just wait to die, the emperor would approve.
@@carden5309 this is also how I do it, and the emperor would absolutely approve.
the whole thing about turnfighters is that they put pressure on stronger players as they cannot get below them in their B&Z aircraft. The whole concept isn't flawed but I'd say that WT is meant to be played with at least 1 friend (who hasn't been lobotomized) and force enemies into a disadvantage or dogfighting with a turnfighter. Of course the entire concept falls apart when you get seagulled by 6 enemies at the same time but every plane can play an amazing role and the game wouldn't be the same without it (top tier is an exception, its mostly about the radars, missles and using your countermeasures correctly)
Or at least teammates who don't die to said zeros. Every match in my american props, I break off to sideclimb to 4 km. I look to the rest of my team - same plane as me, or similar playstyles... they're hugging the deck. They're loaded with rockets/bombs to groundpound.
I reach 2 km and have to turn towards the crowd if I want to be present.
I get there. I get a kill or two, I do defensive flying/disengage/lure.
I open scoreboard. Last one alive. Enemy team is only missing 5 planes or so. Now I got a whole fleet of zeros/spitfires ready to eat me alive and there's no way I can deal with them. I'm nowhere good enough, if it's even possible.
@@runakovacs4759 I know. I've seen too many german players dive after a bomber/attacker after climbing to 3.5km
In the words of a WT Japan Ace, our crafts are easy to learn but difficult to master. In simple terms: Gaijin enjoys screwing us over.
6.0 N1K2, 6.0 J7W1, 6.3 Ki84 hei - pure Japanese balans
@@Liniyka You forgot the poor J6K1 at 6.7br (Somehow considered equal to the Spitfire mk 24, and better than the P-51H according to Gaijin), and at this point might as well mention all the Zeroes at their current BRs.
@@thegreenbolt2819 The J6K1 only has a high BR because it has more guns than a battleship and near infinite ammo.
@@KekusMagnus If that was the case, we should see the F82 be 6.0br at minimum considering it can use 14 50cals and has loads of ammo. Yes 6 20mm and 2 13.2mm with a good amount of ammo is powerful but no where near 6.7br worth considering its flight performance isn't even the best at that Br. At 6.0br, it was pretty balanced as despite worse flight performance compared to its peers, the guns did help make up the difference, though at 6.3 and 6.7br, that advantage is pretty much gonna since the difference in performance is just too large at this point.
We have already seen that the argument of "overwhelming firepower" falls flat the moment any plane with really good flight performance comes along.
they are easy to learn because there is literally nothing to learn lmao you just hold down the s key and auto win any dogfight and if someone runs away you cope thats all there is, actually zero nuance
If Gaijin could find a way to balance the game around good players instead of a pure average it would fix many things like this
Sorry, they are too busy looking at what their algorithm cooked up
Answer
MM based on RAW K/D ratio
EZ 😂
that would involve nerfing russian ground though
The british tree :
It shouldn't be based on skill but the inherent strenght of the vehicle.
I've been playing WT since 2014 and I remember the days when I was an air rb main and they cared about the balance. My WT experience currently is playing ground battles and using the P-51C constantly searching for a pilot that doesn't suck so I can relive the high of the golden years of prop plane dogfights.
Unfortunately, I don't think ground battles are the place to do that. I frequently bring an I-16 to 6.0 in ground RB and get air kills with it. It's like they can't see you and they just assume they're getting shot at by ground AA when you start tearing them apart with stealth belts.
They're the only place to do that. Prop level Air RB is just dog piling with absolutely no thought whatsoever. Occasionally I'll find an amazing pilot on ground RB and we'll have a 5 minute 1v1 and then I have to wait another 100 games
it really does feel like all of the good dogfighters have vanished though doesnt it
@@ShiaLaBunion5 sqb?
I think it's a combo of the good pilots moving on to games that scratch the realistic itch, moving up to jets, and a higher quantity of children
Perfectly put. I'd even go so far as to say that we observe not only an overtiering of turnfighters, but an undertiering of certain varieties of energy fighters, especially "true" BnZ planes such as the He-100, the aforementioned P-51C, and the Ki-44-II. They are not necessarily entry-level aircraft, but they have such obscene carry potential for their BR they are what I'd call a "no-skill plane" with the only condition being to learn basic energy management.
I recently went back to try out the P-51C and got a 7k on my first game. It's honestly broken. It feels like the F-104A of 3.7.
@@j100j yeah definitely, there's a lot of these sorts of energy-focused undertiered planes at lower BRs if you look hard enough.
@@cyonemitsu I just find it funny how Gaijin doesn't balance according to the best players but balances according to the worst.
All the while they make no effort to make the playerbase any better at the game.
@@j100j yeah, lowest common denominator balance is pretty atrocious to quality of play; instead of creating an environment for players to improve themselves and build towards a healthier game state with a more competitive community, it instead incentivized sealclubbing, hiding, and bomber spam.
Ki-44-I at BR 1.3. Absolute disgrace.
The Spitfire in my opinion is the best of the turn fighters in my opinion. Especially the Spitfire F Mk.XIVe at 5.7 is like the ultimate weapon against new players. This applies to pretty much any Griffon-powered spitfire, but this one especially. Its insane climb rate puts you above the enemy team, turn time makes you an excellent dogfighter, and your speed allows you to absolutely own any engagement provided its not a P-51 or something of that sort. Even the 5.3 Seafire holds up to this with its lesser turn time. Thats why I absolutely love the Seafire and Spitfire, so much fun to fly against pretty much anything.
Sorry for the paragraph but I needed to dump my Spitfire opinions bc all my friends are tired of me telling them how good it is lmao
It's all good. I would argue that spit LF mk9 is a much better no-brain turnfighter, but mk14 can certainly do well too
At least one model (idr which one) can out turn the Zero at high speed.
You end up with wild situations where the Spitfire is trying to keep the speed of both planes up, while the Zero tries to bring the speed of both planes down.
Honestly good spit vs good Zero are some of my favorite WT memories. It gets wild.
As a 109 pilot the spits are my nightmare 😂
Can't outclimb them, can't outturn them, can't outrun them, maybe can outdive them, but then you're at the ground and useless until you get picked up by some russian/American on the deck 😢
@@Schimml0rd Hey just BnZ us spit mains, the classic old tactic, ive grown so used to spitfires that when i change to a not so maneuverable plane instinct kicks in and i try to fly a typhoon like a spit and then wonder why i crash and burn.
Finally another Mk XIVe enjoyer. LF IX is overrated, because Mk XIVe just gives you that amazing high altitude performance which allows you to carry games and always have an energy advantage over your opponents, as well as superior manoeuvrability.
2:32 he got a "small" uptier
I would take that fight if Im honest. 😂
1:51 "At any speed," true, but worth note at higher speeds it loses enough manueverability (turn radius in particular) that spitfires can generally out turn them at a similar (high) speed, making engagements between the two very interesting if both players are competent.
"Your gameplan always stays the same," that's an unfair overgeneralization, as per above for an example.
As someone that played a _ton_ in Zeroes way back (you might even be able to find similar comments on very old videos), a plane that is too fast can be repeatedly dodged, essentially keeping their good player(s) occupied while your team shoots down everyone else. Against a fast plane piloted by a good player, the goal is to keep them busy and either bring them over your base, or outnumber them when their allies get shot down. If they can't track you, they can't kill you. The Zero retains energy extremely well in a turn, so you can essentially rebuild all the speed you just lost every time they reset, for a stalemate determined by teammates.
Also, here is where knowing your opponent's plane actually does come in handy: few planes can nose over quickly. Some have poor aileron response, some poor elevator response. Dodge in the direction that it is impossible for them to get their nose on to you (with enough lead to hit if they still have good rudders).
The thing is, the stalemated player will rarely attribute their loss to the necessary focus on the Zero (because otherwise you can kill their teammates faster), and instead to whatever player did kill them. As a result, the capacity for the Zero to simply never be tracked gets underestimated in the grand analysis.
Angles fighting requires energy to maintain the turn, energy fighting requires angles fighting to track and not get tracked. The binary is misleading.
I haven't really dueled any good spit pilots in the zero, so I can't comment. Either way, the zero pulls like 13G when going fast, so defending against it in most planes is borderline impossible
@@Liniyka I apologize for the number of edits, I am commenting on a phone, so I can't do a partial comment and keep watching.
Anyway, I'd reccomend sticking with the Zero a bit longer and really focus on exploiting the energy maintenance even more than the raw radius (which is ofc superior). The fact that you can turn so hard (at low speed) and lose so little energy is what really sets it apart compared to something like biplanes that utterly destroy their energy when turning hard. You can literally just keep going all day until someone loses focus or gets reinforcements.
If you get reinforcements first, they're probably dead as they have to turn someone loose. If they do, you can duel more than one plane at once without dying.
One of my earliest great dogfight memories was of me in my a6m3 vs a spitfire (I forget the exact model, this was in early 2013). But it was him and I, both with 4 kills, and we were the last on our team.
We each chased eachother, high and low, pressing our machines and their relative advantages to their limits for about 7-10 minutes, between islands, close over fleets, he used his more powerful engine to gain ground, but I would never let him take advantage of it.
It only ended when I finally decided in a vertical maneuver to full commit, and I blasted him at about 0.8km above me, both of us nearly stalling out, and I hit his engine, setting him on fire, and ending the fight. I still have the screenshot from the moments after I landed that shot.
Yeah, competent spit pilots can be hell for competent zero pilots. A lot of fun, too.
Agreed. I am still fairly new, with almost 1700 hours in the game, 300 of those hours in Zeroes, 600 hours in American Ground and Air, 200 hours in British ground and air, 300 hours in German Ground and air, and 300 hours in Russian Ground and air.
However I can say that the Zero is a good plane in the hands of a good player. Defyn may not be the best War Thunder Content Creator to watch, however he taught me a lot of things about a lot of planes within many Tech trees. In the Zero it is a battle of intelligence, instead of a battle of brawn. The Zero loses in many spectacles of what other nations offer in their planes, however if you can use that to your advantage, you win 90% of your fights.
The Zero is a very, very hands on plane despite how brain dead you could be with it. It can't retain energy in a climb or dive, nor can it retain energy in a high speed turn fight. however at medium speeds to low speeds, the Zero is a menace to any plane it faces. Hard to shake off, hard to out turn, and it makes sure you have your attention on it at all times, because 1 mistake means you get a clean 20mm HE round to the wing and you fall apart.
And the part about energy retention during slower turns is very, very true. I've been able to continue turning with planes for long periods of time and even catching them in the long run, without stalling in a turn, or losing altitude. I can keep up at least 160 mph (I use MPH and not KMH) during a turn, which is pretty fast for a turn. Meanwhile planes like the spitfire will lose speed faster over time while turning. I've had times where I turn at speeds of 280 mph, and end up at nearly 120 mph within 15 seconds. However with my Zero I've never found myself to be under 150 MPH in a turn. I can start turning at 270 mph and still have 150 mph at my lowest, and that is usually only after about 20-30 seconds of turning. Within 10 seconds I've seen my speeds of 270 mph go down to 200 mph, which is truly the best. While the spit I've seen go from 280 mph to 200 mph within 5 seconds of turning.
The Zero is impeccable if you are able to learn it.
interesting little fun fact, i main american props and while facing people who think they turn well with good MER but compress (like a zero) you can bait them into high speed and then scissor or loop they ass, their retention works against them and for a couple of moments there's not much they can do, it's a super risky move but fun, i popped a zero in a jug like this once
The zero’s (and some others) dive performance in game is just to good, they don't compress for some reason and accelerate why too well. They should have their dive performances nerfed somewhat and get downtierd to where they are actually playable
True, if zeroes had their IRL compression, you could easily put them at a lower BR where they would be a lot more competitive, but also less annoying to fight
A lot of older FMs just don't compress very much, newer gaijin FMs have more realistic compression. In the early days of WarThunder there was no compression at all and you could pull 15G turns with every prop in a dive and there was no g-loc either
@@KekusMagnus Had G-lock since BoS ...
Maybe not in Budget mode but SB had it.
This, they need to add tail flutter mechanics where you simply couldn't pull out of the twisted control surfaces. Also Zero's ailerons use slightly stretchy material for the wires, making them deflect at lower angle at speed due to the resistance.
Community cried about compression and wing cut
So now zero can 24650 G WITHOUT wing break 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
The Ta 152h watching from the shadows
Best prop in the game for me, it holds energy all days long, also the flaps are such a blessing on this plane
It always is funny to see my fellow US players try to turn fight a bunch of planes that are better at turning. I just let them make their mistakes at this point and roll my eyes when they complain about it in chat.
I’m a boom and zoom player so I don’t have this problem. US main by the way.
Ah would like to boom and zoom but they fucked up the flight model of f4u4
Its funny how zero that notoriously compressed at high speeds doesnt and f4u which was designed for high speed manuevers does
And f8f which was the most advanced, best handling, fastest prop fighter ever designed just flies like it had been taped together in a shed
@@seadragonyt5391 Same bro. Had to learn that and energy fighting so I could actually do something
I don't play air rb much but I do like play the p47 and space climbing before diving on some poor guy at mk 1 and then zooming out of there before anyone can do anything about it. It's the most annoying way to play air rb and I love it
@@tirushone6446 The p-47 is my favorite prop for this exact reason. If you know anything about BnZ it's almost as brainless as a zero but replace turnfighting with BnZ.
Using flaps in the Spit was making me cringe. Spit flaps are just air brakes and actually hurt your turn rate. They were designed to act this way so don't use them to try to increase your turn time because they don't. The ONLY times you ever want to use them when not landing is to flip over the top of a loop faster or when you need the air brake effect to keep slow in something like a scissors.
I don’t think this is true.
@@a0000a1234 It is true. They were designed to be air brakes as much as flaps, hence why they are the only flaps in the entire game that go to 90 degrees relative to the wing. When you test them with WTRTI they never increase turn rate, they only hurt it instead.
The flaps were broken on the mk Vc, I forget if trop or not, some patches ago in that they were impossible to rip off and actually were quite helpful, which led to squadron battles being full of Vcs since there was no point in playing anything else.
In the past, at least, if you were able to feather your flaps (keep them from opening all the way), you could get them to perform similarly to combat flaps on other aircraft, at least I'm pretty sure-you just had to be careful about letting them open all the way, at which point you were either going to dump all your airspeed in a hurry or rip them off. I dunno if that's changed, though; I haven't flown Spits consistently in ages.
wrong on the f mk14c u can use them to energytrap a ta152h
I find that this video heavily overstates the capabilities of aircraft like the P-51 and P-47 series.
While the P-51C can somewhat get away with this due to it being the second most competitive P-51, it holds true with most of them. I find that most people usually end up in scenarios where they may run away, but they can't really do anything more to you than extend out and waste time, and then turn back around and try to force a head-on which is risky to both of you. I don't get why people act like these aircraft are god-tier when they just suffer the same issue the Vautour had years back when that was the fastest jet in the game.
You have someone on your tail following you to the ends of the earth, and you really can't fight back because you can't turn with them.
Speed doesn't do much for you if you can't put it to use and actually do something decisive with it besides. Run to get 6km of separation (for aircraft like later Spitfires or Bf-109s) and then turn around to force a headon while you have inferior guns.
A P-51 and P-47 will have an obvious advantage over you if they're above you, but most of the time they won't be there because you're more than likely going to be higher than them, or have parity in altitude, at which point they can't do anything but run.
This issue is at it's worse with the P-51D-30. You may be able to tango with the Fw-190D series at low-altitude, but facing Yaks, Spitfires, J2M, N1K2s, Bf-109s and what not basically makes the plane a struggle bus, especially as you get into higher altitudes as those wings _really_ don't like the higher altitudes unlike the P-47.
this a giant skill issue as a whole
"speed doesn't do much for you"-yes ,yes it does,especially in planes LIKE THESE which have what? Good energy retention(extremely good at high speeds) and good high speed handling characteristics
are they possible to be countered by some planes? absolutely. But so is every other plane.
@@rendycoya I don't see how this is a 'skill issue' when that's literally your only course of action. I also never said Speed wasn't good, it's just that it isn't as useful if you can't capitalize on what you have because you're worse in every other way against your opponent. At that point all you can do is run away. If you have an altitude advantage or you come in where you can use your speed to escape for another pass or even to do a rope a dope, then this makes planes like the P-47 and P-51 exceptionally powerful. But when you have someone on your rear. It's literally just running away the entire time with nothing you can do.
Even in one of Defyn's latest videos about the D-30, he had someone on his ass and he admitted that there's literally almost nothing you can do besides just run for kilometers on end and force head ons.
@@TheTISEOMan if someone gets on your tail,then youve already made a mistake
@@rendycoya What you say makes no sense. If I see someone at parity with me and I force a head-on because they're heading for me, but I don't reengage, they will double back and be on my tail. I can run, but I can't do anything against them besides separation. Even if I have over 6-7km of separation. The same thing follows if I turn away from the opponent to run.
He will be on my tail regardless. You're literally going to have the enemy on your tail either way. You can't just magically be 'above them' or else your team is dead and the match is over.
@@TheTISEOMan if your enemy isnt a bf109,you will outrate him.
also why is he on parity with you,why did you let him get there?
"Zero is OP"
Meanwhile me in Simulator Battles with my I-153P absolutely skullf-ing Zero players:
saw a Chaika 1v1 trade with an F-15 so it clearly deserves to be 12.3
I believe the problem lies in the fact that in war thunder, pilots can take 11+gs for several seconds with no consequences. This way, the player can turn and turn occasionally tapping back to reset the stamina making turnfighters planes with no real downsides but huge upsides
All fighters can do insane amounts of Gs, but those Gs come at the cost of losing all of your speed... Turnfighters tend to not have much speed to spare in the first place so that's all just a krill issue on the part of basically everyone playing the major nations
@@domaxltvthe problem is that turn fighters can pull insane G's, G'is that would probably kill a pilot IRL, to dodge out of the way of a boom and zoom, without any consequences.
@@domaxltv most turn fighters you see dominating the meta don't rely on sustained dogfights to win, you see them pull hard once or twice and getting a kill on the enemy. The issue is not with the planes, it's with the war thunder pilot being able to pull G's that would be impossible in real life, not to mention the fact that you can go unconscious in the game and STILL recover.
@@RecklesslyPessimistic Also, stalls are harmless. They prophang into a stall and then go back to 400 kmh speed like it's nothing. I don't think I've ever seen someone enter a flatspin or other hard to recover stall scenario.
Zeroes secret move: 18G spiral !
The zero and pretty much every turn fighter is OP not because the planes are good, its because they are in this fast paced and super small maps, the Zero might not be fast but climbs fast and has a lot of energy retention
Its play style if the p51 is boom and zoom, yours is Bait and Switch, you try to match their energy levels and use your maneuverability to do a reversal they cant avoid, usually the moment you turn the boom and zoomers will break and try to climb up, if you start the reversal with more or less the same speed as them you can quickly get in their 6 before they get away (if you are close enough that is)
In reality in a 1vs 1 if you are in a zero and knows what you are doing you are almost untouchable until you f up or get gang b by the entirety of the enemy team
I think the reason I love the Italian planes is because of the nose authority, force a head-on and they'll break off early and won't expect you to snap your nose around and absolutely hose them down.
i was in my spitfire going to fake a head on against what i presumed was some italian junk, i go for the standard procedure to reserve him and get on his 6, but then im getting peppered behind me, i look back and the damn thing somehow got on my 6, i think it was a G.55b and i died.
Imo turnfighters being overtiered isnt nessecarily a bad thing. If they could keep up with other planes in energy and whatnot, most fights between competent players would end in stalemates or who gets lucky in the headon and be horrible for both parties. As they are now, at least there's progression in fights most of the time, even if it tends to be consistently against the turnfighter.
True. Considering the fact that this game will never be balanced, it's better for them to be overtiered
@@Liniyka is it tho there are plenty of toxic planes that are undertiered and are far more problematic then turnfighters
@@timothyvdt painfull playing against britany on 4.3
‘How the Zero Breaks War Thunder’ or ‘How the Zero accurately portrays its time over 1940 China and the 1945 Pacific.’
I used to play air back in 2015, I played the Zero and was probably brain dead. My go-to was to single out enemies, head straight towards them with them also facing me head on, then just before firing range I would bank hard downwards and try to get below them. I did this because if there were more than one enemy, the other enemy I'm not chasing would get behind me.
In my opinion, planes like the zero, ki43 or spitfire are rat planes.
Sure you can run from them forever, but it’s near impossible to beat, if they pair up with a fast plane, that can catch you.
Also, due to their low stall speed, spiral climb are extremely risky.
Ex-zero player here. There is a bit more to zero than meets the eye. Zeros are incredibly durable unless you get hit in two places - just behind the engine and inner wing so way you dodge require of you to move in as unpredictable was as possible usually modifying turns by varying your roll rate. This way you can actually 1v5 and get out of that victorious and as long as you don't get burning you can actually limp back to base with one wing, half a tail and/or no tail authority. Another strategy no one expects from zero player is MEC- zero is capable of holding it's max speed (that is just below wing rip) for incredibly long time using MEC as it gives you enhanced speed control and infinite WEP- on multiple occasions I was able to chase down players that didn't expect me to follow them into the dive and survive. Careful positioning is key- over 5.0 envelope of which you need to be aware of is a bit ridiculous as you needed to be aware of every plane within 3-4 km SPHERE around you as you engage your enemy and failing to scan your surroundings every 2-3 seconds will result in getting strafed in the middle of dog fight - which is a reason why I stopped playing them for fun- I couldn't keep up the regiment of scanning as I got older.
There's more into this like mind games, head on dodging tactics as a way to engage your enemy but it's too much to describe in one comment.
Yeah, the zero should go down in one well placed .50cal burst. Problem is that Ingame, it somehow puts out fires like they’re nothing.
@@ayylmao8901even during hay day of fiddy-cal it was true only when hit in described above areas. There's a trick to extinguishing most fighters - upside down negative pitch turn. Works 50% of the time but it will leave you with couple of minutes of fuel in best case scenario. Moust of the time it is useful to bait enemies and waste their ammo and time.
No idea where this idea comes from. Switching from Japan felt like a massive durability boost. Zero's get hit by the wind and shatter into 50 pieces. Literally any machine gun hit on the wing and the wing tears off. It's just that people are missing more when you're a turn fighter.
It's like the whole 'Japanese tanks are high firepower low armour' when Japanese tanks have some of the worst firepower of any faction until late rank 3 when you get the homeland defence tanks that were never used. Prior to then, its tank destroyers have similar firepower to the US reserve light tank, while being a quarter as fast as peer BR tanks. The Chi Ha struggles to pen anything even when downtiered lol. When in peer tiers its got such terrible pen that a solid half the games lineup are just an automatic L + ratio since you literally cant even pen from behind.
@@fearedjames Without MEC you cannot use zero to it's full potential- It's Prop is optimised for climbing which means that proper prop pitch manipulation can really help you keep your speed at the edge of self-dissasembly. In fact their durability used to be much worse when fiddy cal was stronger (reduction of damage and range for "balance" purposes- or at least what geajin claims which suspeciously always favours yaks) and their agility higher (delfection angles where reduced like 3-4 years ago). For me it sounds like you lack proper discipline when it comes to throttle control.
Japan when it comes to naval history heavily invested in SAP-HE rounds which where basically equivalents of mine-rounds from germ 20mm- not a lot of pen but concusive force focused on disabling crew. Very similar philosophy was used by jap tank guns which due to gajin never implmenting IRL chance to over pen or underpen with APHE means that usually pen= death by loss of crew. Yes 57mm is hot garbage and good canons are 47mm at low br (circa 2.7) and jap jap 75mm tank canons are generally decent for their BR with exception of Chi-RI II which is over br-ed. And if you wonder why jap 37mm tank gun is hot garbage- it's copy of 37mm Putaux french gun that moust of people never had a chace of suffering throuh due to all of rench reserve tanks being cut- and in comparison it's still somehow better.
@@radosaworman7628 I moreso mean that by the time you get to anything viable in the Japanese tech tree, you're getting to WWII experimental and post war stuff, and post war stuff isn't 'that' different in design.
The issue is the same reason heavy tanks seem much better than irl. In real life, repeatedly taking non-pen rounds will shake the tank so hard it will start causing system failures and start giving the crew concussions. You don't need to pen to defeat a tank in real life, you just need to beat the shit out of the squishy things inside.
It's why you get stories like how the 60 something Shermans all fired at a single Tiger and failed to destroy the tank. They didn't pen the tank true, but who gives a shit, the crew was totally and utterly incapable of fighting afterwards, and flopped out of the tank barely conscious enough to surrender, and their ears bleeding because the banging was so loud it blew their eardrums out. Not to mention half the systems inside the tank had been disabled and the tank was totally unusable.
Basically all tank sims fail to reflect this truth, and so tanks are far more durable than they are in real life, and so basically everything before the homeland defence tanks (ie basically Japans experimental line) suddenly struggles to scratch stupid shit like the L3. (The L3 is actually a slightly superior tank in every metric to the fucking rank 2 Chi Ha and only gets surpassed with the Chi Ha Kai)
One thing about BnZ againt Zeros. If you do it wrong you can be punished by a good zero player (can not would) thats because a the zero have a super low stall speed so they can pich up 90° put their landing flaps and put their nose on you and click you out of the air.
Do not take your eyes from a Zero, if he is an experienced player you can end in a constant BnZ loop for minutes when neither of you can do much until one of the two players commit an error.
(I know this because i also used the zero but when i had already hundreds of hours playing the game and ended up with 3k/d with the premium zero)
When I first started war thunder, air interested me a lot. I didn’t mind getting destroyed plenty of times. But after reaching 4.0 I was struggling to get kills and even try to hold my own. Lost interest and tried ground battles. Now I found the arma series and never touching WT again
struggled to get kills because you didnt use the time between 1.0-4.0 to learn the basics of air combat.
@@fluxtheory3136 that is a fair point. But trying to understand the game mechanics and versing advanced player in general ruins the experience.
arma is a very very underrated and under-utilised series
@@through-faith-aloneI just wish Arma had AI and AI commanding ability from Men of War/Call to Arms/Gates of Hell.
I was playing GoH last night and the competence of the AI was shocking. It’s very simple, and they’ll do exactly what you tell them if you do, but left to their own devices they fight and move much more intelligently than Arma AI ever has.
And the vehicle driving…. Mmmmmmmmmmmm they drive so well.
@@Aqueox it has huge potential for vr simulations given than it has pretty much all modern combat arms
The reason why aircraft like the Zero Fighter always wins is not only because it is beginner-friendly, but also because of the game rules. Warthunder's maps are narrow and the time limit is not long, so most American planes are overpowered by Japanese planes before they reach a sufficient altitude. American planes are forced to climb while detouring, which is not only not interesting as a game, but also disadvantageous in many ways. Also, there are almost no attacks by coordinated platoons like in the actual WW2, and there are only a collection of solo players, which also gives the Zero Fighter an advantage.
fighting a Mig in a french propeller aircraft is crazy.
5:15 is insane, rly shows the problem of compression if he did not uptier himself (also when he fought the 163)
I love boom and zooming in the P-51 its free kills
warthunder have so many ploblem nowaday i not play it anymore
Is it just me or has war thunder "realistic" battles flight mechanics become more and more arcady over the years?
I haven't really played War Thunder in like 5 years at this point (and i dont plan on coming back), but i can remember zero having extremely bad compression at high speeds. It handled like a bus at anything above 500 kilometers per hour, yet in these clips it seems as maneuverable at high speeda as it does on low speeds, so what happened?
Almost all zeros lock up around speeds 500-600kph
Actually, maybe not the A6m5's
@@weewooheehoo2196 IRL the Zero would've locked up at way lower speeds, like 400kph max before complete loss of control. Zero pilots also had to be very mindful of ripping wings in a sustained turn above 300kph, which is not at all represented in game.
alot of aircraft like the zero wold snap their wings if they took on some of the G force that warthunder lets them which i always find crazy. using the zero really feels like using a really sharp knife it just kinda does the job for you, until youre given a rock then no amount of skill is going to let u cut it
All planes have massively increased structural limits, even modern fighter jets cant do like 10Gs without issues
@@domaxltvthe incrwased G limits just happens to benefit turn fighters way more because energy fighters bleed all their speed when they pull Gs
The zero is my comfort aircraft. Whenever I get tired and need to chill out, I play a podcast and queue a game with a turnfighter.
Small maps + we all start from the runway.
Apparently expecting people to, you know, *NOT TURNFIGHT SPITS AND ZEROES* is too much to expect these days...
The good 'ol days.
It's pretty fun when the enemies actually get an energy advantage and try to BnZ me in a Zero. Baiting the enemy towards my teammates and friends, forcing them to dive to the ground or lose all energy.
Dudes whole argument is basically chastising on player base bc another player base is too dumb otlr impatient to use their aircrafts advantages.
You described the problems perfectly, a plane that is only good at one thing - Turning. However due to the skill issue of (most) players most fights devolve into dog fights regardless of the plane they fly which causes the Zero to win. As for the problem you describe with fighting against experienced players, I do get what you mean but I do usually find ways to counter it in various ways.
This is a video about the zero. You should have kept it to just the Zero, cause I don't think it applies to the spit or the reggiane. I am a re2005 enjoyer, it is the most fun plane in the game. These two planes have other advantages beyond turnfighting. They both have great guns (triple 151's for the win!), the reggianne has a reasonably powerful engine and a good stall performance. Many spits are superb climbers. An experienced player is not just at the mercy of a faster plane. Sure the other guy has more control over the engagement sometimes, but you can make yourself difficult enough of a target that most players will get frustrated and dogfight you where you clap their cheeks. If they're really smart they'll fuck off and look for easier prey and you can keep climbing. I get that you don't like turnfighting but that doesn't invalidate turnfighting as a tactic and turnfighters as good planes. The zero is overtiered because it bullies noobs who don't understand air combat at all and it has a motorcycle engine and here your argument has some merit.
Can't agree with you there. All 3 of the specific planes I mentioned are very similar in their playstyle - you either dive on someone and get a free kill, or have to chase much faster planes around in hopes that they are stupid. Re2005 isn't much different from the zero - if u see a good P51H player, all u can do is cope
@@Liniyka as long as I don't make a stupid mistake I can deal with it. Git gud.
@@LiniykaP51H is generally regarded as the best prop stat-wise in the entire game, so that's generally the case no matter what you're flying.
@@lukeari9890 a reasonably good BF 109K player will absolutely rinse an Re 2005s asscheeks
@@rendycoya A BG109K-4 is a much better example than the P51-H. The Re 2005 is still a vehicle I approach with extreme caution because of how absurdly powerful its guns are tho
So am I the only one who kills everything in Spitfire? Like, You can BnZ, You can turnfight... And You Are Fast with great guns... What do you want more?
Spitfire is just good.
Still regret buying a 190 d13
Out turning and shooting down 3 p51s and a p63 in an SM.92 has always been a great experience
4:40 This is so true. I was one of those P51 pilots and i never engaged a zero in a turn fight. I always Boom and zoomed and if i made a major mistake i could hit the deck and leave their effective range in seconds because comparatively they were pathetically slow especially when the energy advantage was a factor. I'll admit occasionally a crack or lucky shot could get me, but i could reliably over extend my dive and just take a flat line for the first Km and shallow to steep zoom about 19 out of 20 times without getting touched as most zeros were so caught up with trying to dodge that not even their impressive turn rate was enough to bring weapons on me before i had already left their effective range.
Being an energy fighter at an advantage is so rewarding because while it does feel like seal clubbing due to how helpless your prey feels, it takes so much thought and setup to achieve. When it's done the payoff is so rewarding.
The issue i came across was that i never got good enough to be able to reliably win matches against similar aircraft. If i was in my P-51 and saw a BF-109 at a similar energy level i knew it was unlikely i would win, because my reversals, evasive, and aim were all not that great. I often missed really good chances for kills and though i would evade a bit, then i would fail to reverse repeatedly and still eventually get shot down. Overall it's what killed my enjoyment of the game and why i left.
It feels like the zero has been relegated to a scarecrow role, i stoped playing them becuase people just kept runing away from me and at their BRs every plane is faster so there is no hope for catching a running enemy.
I really enjoyed this video! I'm glad I got it recommended by YT.
Glad you enjoyed ❤️
Funny thing is those missiles come with tactics that the current maps are too small to use.
But, like you mentioned the zero irl was getting destroied by F4Us, could you imagine a F4U wining a zero in a dogfight?
There is something wrong with the plane stats themselfs, like the fact that they turn in 2 sec or dont stall.
As he said in the video, the main problem is that the zero does not suffer control surface compression as it should. That's how it gets away with what it does in WT.
You just explained half of Warthunder. My problem with low BR props is that the pubs are full of lvl 100 "Smurfs" who have way more skill then an average player who should play that BR, thus they gets snipped from 2km away.
The average player at any br is pretty much the same. At top tier it's usually one or two good players carrying a team of noobs who try to out turn an Su-27 while they're fully loaded with napalm and 500lbs.
How the fuck do you expect the lvl100 “smurfs” to start grinding other trees?? Im not giving 60 dollas for a premium jet and even then i love playing props.
I think the biggest thing about maneuverable planes is that they really click with the point and click method of playing. Energy fighting requires the skills to manage situational awareness with a camera designed to work best with turning aggressively towards whatever you look at. So they're the best planes at the game's default playstyle but lock you into it.
I think it might be interesting to look at how the controls work to shape the way players play because in my experience the most important part of a flight sim is managing situational awareness, and the mouselook and turn being tied together like war thunder does makes it very counterintuitive and difficult to play in other ways.
The thing is Liniyka, If i disagree with you which you have before you call me a clown shoot down my opinion. Yes Zeroes are easy to beat once you figure them out, but dude some folks like the play style, to each thier own man.
I don't think you were listening to the video. He basically said this already.
@JohnJohnningJohnson nah he's basically calling out zero/spit players for being "braindead" when it's dipshits who take a p51 out and try to make it do something it was never designed for.
I've recently got tired of jets and decided to try another nation apart from my USSR and Germany, and picked Japan solely because of A6M. And got a bit disappointed for this exact reason.
On ranks 2-3 Ki-44/43 ended up being way more interesting planes than A6Ms
completely disagree on that "requires on fighting lobotomized enemies to be good" line. I think it shows your personal short comings rather then the planes themselves. I play the shit out of that spitfire you mentioned, its one of my favorite planes. This is because 9 out of 10 games I have in it are good games. Knowing your plane and understanding how it works is key to war thunder. Turn fighters are amazing, but only if you understand their short comings and how to play them to your advantage. Which clearly you don't do.
"I think it shows your personal short comings rather then the planes themselves."
No. It's the planes. This video is largely echoing what the best players in the game say/think about these aircraft. There is a reason that the A6Ms are called an idiot tax by a large swath of the best players that play the game.
Man the 4.7 and 5.0 Spits are so bad it hurts.
You are so slow and can’t climb that everyone can just shit on you.
Zeroes at least beat Spitfires at their game.
@kimjanek646 slow? Not really, unless you're fighting a 109. And yeah, they don't climb like the other spits do. But the key to the 4.7 and 5.0 spits is to play them like energy fighters that can turn. So basically thecsame why you'd play and BF109 F2
@rainsilent no the best players are not echoing what he's saying. In fact, we'd all agree that the engery fighters have an edge, but that edge doesn't mean turn fighters are mince meat when fighters a skilled player. Frankly that's just not true and again shows op has no idea how to play a turn fighter.
@@rogaldom4979 What's that suppose to mean? Unless you are fighting 190s? 190s aren't even that fast unless it's a Dora and then the other nation still have faster planes. A Bf 109 G-6 out-climbs them and is faster. Every plane beats them massively in climb or speed and they even have bad high alt performance.
Who are you going to BnZ in a Spit that has nothing going for it other than turn rate and firepower?
It is worth noting that, compared to some other turnfighters (the Ki-43-III, for instance), the Zero is especially painful due to its wing-mounted cannons and relatively lazy ballistics... meaning that when you do have to pull for a head-on, you're playing with the deck stacked against you pretty badly.
Cope and seethe, leave my A7M1 and zeros alone
This is even sort of happening in early jets with the vampire creeping up and the ariete dicking everything down in an uptier
its actually not that hard to kill an zero, you just have to use more than 2 braincells. Even a tank can outspeed a zero, use it in your advantage. And also, turn fighters can be good if you know how to play them, everything starts from the moves you choose to make as soon as you spawn.
Btw ever tried the Yak-1B? A very damn good balance between turn and speed
And about the "Just go for a headon attack" Who the heck claims that knows what is doing in WT and then throw this absurd garbage phrase?
not hard indeed,just annoying
from experience the Ki-43-I and II have managed to avoid this fate somehow, being good turnfighters and also being pretty fast for their BRs (in AAB at least, I'm one of those you mentioned that's too impatient for ARB) and is a pretty good allrounder for it somehow.
As well as Italian RE.2001 its also fun to turn fight and blast enemies with 12.7 stealth ammo, so br is even lower and you can outturn spitfire as well and use m.e.c to not get overheat...
as a zero player, when facing a better oponent there are a few things that must be done. 1: never dive unless abbsolutly needed, if they are above you you have to turn into their dive at the right time which causes them to miss, or turn and hit har rudder to the oposite dirrection which will cause a weird turn that makes the enemmy miss though(Bleeds a lot of energy so do it at your own risk). 2: if they arre ahead of you fake a head on and confuse the enemy(best done in pairs). 3: never commit to any fight with anyone disangege if your in a bad position better tpo have them chase you then deal with them boom & zooming you(most american players will chase and hold down the trigger as if they had unlimited ammo so be carfull)
The easy counter to dealing with boom and zoom fighters killing a zero is flying literally less then a 100 feet off the ground. This removes the steep dive angles one can take to hit you or gives the diving fighter such a short window to fire on you before they have to avoid an arranged marriage with the ground. This leaves them with far more shallow dives and less speed if they want longer window with guns on you. The trick for turn fighters is to always keep the fight below 100 feet. dont chase after a boom and zoom fiighter to long. Give a burst and go back to staying low.
I only play war thunder for ground but I've started trying to play air and it's so disgustingly hard. If I use a good turning plane I feel the circle lasts forever until someone third parties, and if I use a fast plane I get 10 hits and he just turns behind me and kills me in one shot. I don't know how to learn or get better when the same thing happens every time.
Air rb is unbalanced
Use boom and zoom for the best safety-kill ratio and be aware of energy states, avoid people higher than you
@@cideltacommand7169 where am I even supposed to learn what a boom and zoom is
@@theycallmeklutchkidUA-cam
@@theycallmeklutchkid the 200 guides
I could swear the zero compressed last time I played, some years ago.
About turnfighting: if you pair it with a precise and fast cannon, and an experienced player, it's much deadlier against good players because you can kill as the enemy is extending/climbing away. While the zero has the worst cannons ingame, the upgraded hispanos in British planes are probably the best as they have the fastest muzzle velocity.
Bro makes sum good videos keep up the good work man
Thank you!
The issue I had with the fast turning planes is that they very often also happened to get above me despite serious side climbing, making it hard to get an energy advantage. The zero was particularly hard to beat in this respect, especially in American aircraft.
The turnfighter problem came to the Yak-3 family, some of it suprisingly performs well in turnfighting and also have a great energy retention
Yak-3 VK-107 will always be my fav. Good turnfighter and it manages to get very close to its structural speed limit in a straight line lol Not ideal for BnZ if enemy plane can go above 800 kph without tearing their wings though.
I remember how the A7M1 was a 4.3 when it got added, then gaijin decided it should be a 4.7 which wasn’t ideal but was workable. Then they bumped it up to 5.0-5.3, which just destroyed its matchmaking and made it useless. It fights planes that have every advantage over it and if not better planes, you have to deal with JU288Cs which just ruin the whole 5.0-7.0 BR range.
I know this is only two cents, if even that I am a bad player, I really am but the biggest thing in actually winning like in most other games is playing together. You do not want to take fair fights, you should make them as unfair as possible, help engaged friendlies out, finish of damaged aircraft, and try take 2:1 or 3:1 fights as much as possible. The low tier Bf 109s and Zeros are currently my favourite aircraft, as well as the Spitfires, I just seem unable to hit anything with nose mounted cannons, while the wingmounted mgs shred aircraft into dust.
You are right in what you are saying.
But you didn’t talk about a fight between two turn fighters. Facing a good pilot in another turn fighter is one of the most challenging and my favorite part of the game.
Both of you turning and trying to outmaneuver the other. I love it
A big problem in air rb currently is the physics model, manoeuvrable planes have infinite energy stores which they wouldn’t have in real life and energy fighters like the 109 can’t perform as they should because they can’t stall out planes that should stall before them.
Makes me miss the good old days back when the F2 Sabre and the MiG 17 along with the CL 13 and Hunter were the top dogs in the yard. It was all skill. You had to put together all of your experience from prop fighters to master those jets.
Ah yes. One of my fondest memories in WT. I found myself as last of my Team in a A6M2 at around 2000m altitude and was pulled into a dogfight with all 5 remaining enemies at once (Spits and P63s) as everyone was greedy for the last kill. The Zero won.
I for myself love the 109s and I play them for fun, especially the 109E and G.
As a little fun tip, on most of your kills you turned in too late, for the leading shots.
Lead your nose/plane more & earlier in the turns leading up to the kills. Pull more. The planes you used allow for that.
Haven’t played actively since 2015. Glad to hear that literally nothing has changed
I love the RA3 ost in the background.
As an experienced veteran who only plays War Thunder for 5.0 instead of top tier, I’ve seen it all. I fly all the P-51s and I have over 1200 hours in the P-51D-30 alone and the best way I dispatch of an A6M is by bullying them to submission with pure speed, rate fighting and energy tactics. It may not make sense at first but US aircraft are actually the kryptonite to japanese planes, many of them are made specifically to counter some of them. U.S players just need to learn to adapt to new strategies and gain experience. A6Ms are easy food for something like an F4U
the only thing that is absolute when it comes to air to air combat is that there are no absolutes. it is NOT impossible to win a dogfight against a zero. some yaks, some spitfires, the Ta-152H some Bf-109s and afew others can out turn a zero. i have yet to beat the early zeros in a dogfight but the A6M5s and A6M6s can be beat. i personal have won a prolonged dogfight with an A6M5 in the Bf-109K-4 by using landing flaps in a one circle and i have repeated it afew times. its hard, extremely unlikely, and you need several thousand hours in the game, but its possible
Japanese planes are godly in Ground RB. You are almost the equivalent of a pantsir around 3.3-6.7. The turn rate and the air belt of the 12.7mm is just perfect.
It always baffles me how many players in this game don’t know about using a speed advantage against a slower but better turning opponent.
Also you can beat faster planes like the P-51, like you said with a head-on.
The trick is turning away as late as possible after firing a burst that correlates to how risky you want to play (full commit if you don’t care about risk).
Speaking of which, maybe an in depth video on how to perform head-ons would be good. Go into depth of when to pull off, where to aim, how inverting in a head on in some planes is basically an instant win button, etc.
Yak-3s are planes on which i learned dogfighting , basic yak-3 turn well and has a SHVAK with very good damage, yak-3p is an yak-3 with triple super SHVAK , yak-3u is a turnfighter yak , yak-15s are just yak-3s with 23mm gun and a jet engine attached
I always feel like everyone has a completely different experience from me in this game. The third part of this video perfectly explains why I just can't play the zero in air rb. it's painful
Due to this video, there's going to be so many more 'put mouse on plane' zeroes trying to mindlessly nose up for my corsair. Thanks for the free kills!
I remember years ago, when I stll played, a6m5 was great fun to fly but the cannons somehow just gently petted the target aircraft while anything could turn you into a flying grease fire.
In general, the powerlevel goes like this: high skill player in fast planes >= high skill player in turny planes > low skill player in turny planes > low skill player in fast planes.
Why the '>=' ? Two skilled players can force a stalemate on each other, even if one has the faster plane.
If you make yourself nigh impossible to hit, your attacker will start to need to take more risk. Take too much risk, and you end up dead, and that applies to all sides, whether you are in a turn or energy fighter, and whether you're in an energy advantage or disadvantage. In the end, it all comes down to pilot skill. If both have no skill, then it's about basic flight capabilities of the machines.
I will give an example: I fought a skilled XP-50 player (good KD across many planes, kept his energy during the fight) while I was in a BF-109 B-1 (turns well, pulls 13g at high speed, low top speed and climbs poorly). He may have had the superior plane, but I made myself extremely hard to hit. With each attack by the XP-50 I made my dodges closer and closer to his gun solution. Eventually the XP-50 overextended and I placed some good hits with the 7.92mm guns, and finally he tried running away from me, but I caught up using the interception path.
What you said about dogfighting skills becoming less relevant is so true. My account got gaijin'd so I just recently started playing again and since I never flew the Japanese, I started playing. My K/D is almost 3, my win percentage is over 63%. I am not this good in any other games. But the majority are flying like they have an extra chromosome, being on the deck in a fighter without even ground pounding. BACK IN THE DAY when Air RB had axis vs. allies, you had to side climb in a Bf 109 and the allied planes knew this. Getting an actual fighter vs. fighter kill was a 50/50 since everyone knew something (and I was young and stupid).
Today I see people in mustangs and corsairs spraying and praying on the deck and I need to dive down in my Ki-100 to give a small love tap of 20mm's to finish the job. One thing you did not mention is the fact that the ammunition is quite low in the end. The zeros, Ki-43's and Ki-61 teach you to actually aim and acquire the target properly. With enough skill you can send 3 or even 4 fighters to the hangar before you need to reload your cannons. Skilled trigger discipline is obviously rewarded by getting more time in the air, but the dopamine zoomers could benefit from an immediate reward. I know it would be hard to program, but on the other hand there's already a reward for multistrike so it is possible.
Thank you for making a great video.
Maneuverable planes also overperform due to accurate mouseaim. The fact is, IRL no one was taking shots at enemy fighters outside of 500m. But if you make a BnZ pass on a Zero or Spitfire and are zipping away, it's not uncommon for me to snap back around and shoot a dodging plane from 1.5-2km away.
The speed or energy fighter can choose to maneuver harder to make it difficult for me to hit them, but then they're slowing themselves down and throwing away the whole point of their aircraft.
If you play Sim instead, this isn't an issue as few people can get guns on target accurately from such ranges.
I find sim to be the opposite. Joystick aim and shorter engagement ranges makes dogfighting more effective as opposed to BnZ. The A7M is like the most op plane in sim.
Honestly its funny to see that the average player is responsible for the erroneous design choices gaijin makes due to their own inability to play the game in an intelligent manner. Like I watched PhlyDaily videos way back in the day to learn how to fly planes better and more effectively. Today though I guess people just don't really care about the actual skillful part of warthunder and just focus on top tier, which admittedly when I started playing, the F2 Sabre and Mig 17 were the top of the bunch so knowing how to dogfight was an important skill to take into top tier, now though its just missile buses and who has the better radarr arrangement. Side climbing used to be a thing too back in the day to actually get altitude over your enemies and make fights interesting because if you spent the extra 5 minutes climbing to have advantage over a zero you were rewarded, nowadays though all the game is people doing head ons and turning.
One thing I must add, that actually is in favor of the zero and other turn fighters, is WT’s physics engine.
While okay, the physics in the game promote turning ability much more than it does other factors like speed.
I’ve noticed this throughout my years playing different games. First WT, then IL2, Now DCS WW2.
The spitfire, mustang, and 109 are all in game. And at least there, speed is the biggest advantage one can get. It borders on stupid how effective being faster is. Turning is great, but you can alway just pitch up and make the enemy stall.
WT it’s a bit different tho. There’s something about the physics that makes aircraft slow down much faster than they should due to drag, especially in climbs. This leads to some rather… less than savoury moment when you BnZ some guy only for him to instantly turn around and start catching you even though you’re still extending your dive.
Doesn’t happen all the time and it’s not with one particular plane, but it’s just a general detail I’ve noticed.
Also I think that the skilled players on good planes will always have an advantage, it’s just Zero has some fighting chances against them, while most other planes will just die without a chance to fight back in this case.
nah. when an energy fighter tries to pull back up in fact is the best time for a zero to strike. as long as ur aim is true. a re-climbing energy fighter is at its weakest state after a dive on you. if u manage to maintain the defensive flight. they are simply dead. Ur agility simply gives u the easiest switch card
I grinded the whole Chinese (cuz it has USA and Russian planes) and Japanese air just by tech tree. the zero in fact is the plane where I use to learn how to aim my guns. Nowerdays I still use my guns a lot and basically never really miss in 11.7+ air rb. however I still would suggest to stick to maximum of 11.0 thou. cuz Top-top tier air RB which is like 11.7-12.7 now is basically IRCCM missile spam. not fun at all
I disagree on the point that Zero becomes useless against skilled players, on the contrary, it’s very interesting to fight against said players, because you need to think about tactics, how to trick the enemy into making a mistake. If the enemy goes head on, you need to stealthily dodge his shots until the last moment and then fire at point blank, when the enemy is starting to maneuver out of the head on, or you need to perfectly count time to turn around to get on the enemy 6 within a hundred meters of them after the head on. If the enemy is attacking from above, you need to dodge him at the last moment, so he won’t have time to run away, or you can start to dive and if the enemy will follow, then you can take advantage of your lighter plane to turn around and again get on the enemies 6. Finally, sometimes you can go with them head on, but this is the desperation tactics, if your plane was critically damaged during all the previous attacks.
The only kills against Hurricanes bu ki 43 and zero's in Burma was ground straffing. The Hurricane pilots said that the planes were roughly equal but the zero could not follow in any dive as multiple Hurricane pilots said that if the zero tried to follow their wings world fold over the canopy forming a coffin for the pilot. There are combat reports of Hurrricane v spitfire v 109. The Hurricane could reverse a 109 in 4 turns and spitfire in not much more . Hurricane was superb. Throughout a turn the Hurri pilot always had view of the target while the spitfire would not this was due the camber of the Hurricane from cockpit to nose.
4:00 But that's what makes the zero so much fun. Fighting a skilled player while they have the altitude advantage is a test of skill for both of us. It feels like a real dogfight. It forces you to learn how to snipe. Also, when in a head on with a zero, remember, that's what I want you to do. Again, I've been forced to learn how to snipe. I'll shoot small bursts around 1km then I set up for my reversal. When diving a zero be very careful. You're moving really fast in a dive and you can't turn as well. That's what I want, the greater the dive, the better. I can easily turn to make you overshoot make you loose speed or spring my reversal. What ever you do, don't lower your throttle. Yes, you can slow down and try to get a shot on me. However, the less speed you have, more likely you have to turn fight me. The only REAL way to kill a zero is a 2+ Vs 1. Don't underestimate a zero. It's still dangerous to fight a compitant zero in a 2 vs 1.
It's also really fun to fight these 2+ vs 1. It feels like being a samurai from those black and white fims. There are a dozen of enemies surrounding you, hand on your sheath. The silence, the tension. An enemy charges! Slash! He's down. A moment of silence. Suddenly they they all charge. Slash! Another goes down. From behind! Slash, slash! Two more. You doge, slash! You bob a weave. Slash! A lucky hit. You feel the blood trickle down your leg, you can't move as well. That doesn't matter. It's all or nothing! Banzai! Slash! Another goes down. Slash, a hit on you. Slash, slash, slash, slash! Suddenly, the enemy backs off. You can't move. But you're still standing. A whistle. Hundreds of archers appear from the roof tops bows drawn. You ready yourself. Then it happens, you swing your sword has hundreds of arrows fly to you. You feel them peirce your body. You still stand. The enemy marches closer to you again. You ready yourself, but somethings wrong. You can't fell your arm. Your legs suddenly give out. Fighting them, you slowly slump to the ground. No. Not yet. The enemy lowers their weapons. It's hard to breathe. You can't seem to keep your eyes open. You stain your eye lids open but the darkness surrounds you. Slowly and quietly, everything goes black. You die a warriors death. You took down six players while wounding a few more.
ANYWAY. When I'm not flying the zero, I'm using the 51, 109s, and yaks. If you don't climb, you lose. If your team doesn't climb, you lose. Most of the games I lost was when my team didn't climb. I'm all alone in a 109 at 4000m against, 3 p-38s, a xp-50x, and 2 51s, while my whole team decided it was a good idea to rush a random a-20 flying at 500m. All you could hear was. "Mine! Mine! Mine! Miiiine!" The zeros weren't there to take them out. The enemy team just has a fun day BnZ. The zero doesn't really break the game. It's players not knowing how to fly or fight properly. They don't know how to fight a zero. Why its a really bad idea to rush ground attackers at the beginning of a match. How to defend against a BnZ attack. Why you can't just fly straight up and expect to shoot down a 109 who has both alt and speed. Like my guy, I HAVE ALT. You're going to stall and I'm going to have a free kill. We just need to teach these guys on what to/ not to do.
Playing the Zero can be also a good way to learn how to do Reversals, atleast when I had flown them many years ago around the time in 2016/17 in those US vs JP matches on pacific isles maps back then when a P-51 or P-38 player actually used the strenghts of their aircraft over you and you had those really pressuring moments of anticipating their BnZ maneuver and counter acting it, then you suddenly need to become ressourceful with the Zero and it is incredibly fun, imho when you're put up to a test to a proper fight against a ressourceful P-38 pilot you will experience a sense of dread and patience you wont have otherwise.
I wouldnt say the Zero would be completely Meta irrelevant, just getting properly tiered against P-38s, early Mustangs and Spits as she should be accordingly.
WT is also due to its nature of all players going f all, not good in portraying squadron tactics such as the americans used when still using the Wildcat, because the Wildcat while oftenly being described as outclassed was actually decent enough against the early Zeros, especially when uses with the Stash formation which I often saw in squadron battles / clan wars ingame.
I would love to see properly acting Wildcat and Hellcats vs Zero fights....
To be honest the phenomena you described also aligns perfectly with the chinese I-16 Type 28 with 20mm. By all means a horrendous aircraft, but due to its turn rate and cannons on such a low BR, you just smack unseasoned players.
The Zero is the perfect plane for other pilots to pratice BnZ on, and play the point system/objectives. This plane is easier to beat then a XP50 DO355 P51H F2G F4U SpitIX Yak3 and many more.
And nobody talks about the Ki-43 and 44 which are MORE maneuverable and aren't dogshit slow planes
The only reason that the zero, and other similarly maneuverable planes can actually do well is just because the average person you fight will just try to turn fight you. Which is absolutely stupid. Yet more often than not, stuff like I-225s or P47s will just try to turn with you. All they have to do is play energy, yet they just decide to hold the elevator key. It's quite hilarious.
And then, when I see a zero in the match, I don't really have any issue taking them out in most planes, because you can just out energy them in pretty much anything that doesn't out turn them.
So yeah, basically what you said in the video. I also agree that they aren't very fun to play.
the worst situation you can get in with a zero or against it, is like what happened to me last time I played Air RB. The zero player was smart, but so was I. I was in a I-185, so speed was my card, but the turn rate was dogshit. Was stock too. Guy waited me to dive on him, when I was close he done a 180, I couldn't get guns on him, so I followed up to mid turn and then fly away to recover speed and altitude. Ended a draw, I won on tickets.