I would be remiss to say - don’t underestimate those in the trades. We listen to these sorts of podcasts while we drive, and we feel we are gaining a college education and more by doing so. The intellectual side of Catholicism, with the advent of the Internet, has reached all the way down to every strata of human society.
Absolutely. I manage a few Jersey Mike’s and I listen to all these sorts of podcasts and shows while I’m driving and opening stores. We have way more time than the average person to absorb all this information.
I hear you! I'm a manual worker, and people tend to constantly underestimate our intelligence and culture. While we do routine tasks, we have time to think about a lot of things. While many university graduates often do fairly banal work, but that still requires their undivided attention, we can do philosophy as we work!
I am an ordinary person, as you say towards the end of the video. Through my coming back to faith, I found my way to your books and others like you. It’s taken some effort and, yes at times a dictionary! But I am now not only able to understand this conversation but can articulate the ideas to others. Thanks!
I echo @Pilgrimofhope7 . Decades ago I sat on the sidelines listening to others mesmerized by their libertarian ideas. There was always something that bugged me in some, namely, the defense of polygamy as the norm in nature. My husband and I loved refuting with examples in nature, of animals mating for life: beavers, albatros, ospreys... 😊 Giving witness to the beauty of monogamy. I thank God, Bishop Barron, for raising you to be a leader who explains with clarity through different forms of engagement. Through the years, I've learned lots, enough to bring the truth of the Gospel by living it in my community of faith, participating, collaborating, never-ending learning and sharing. It is beautiful. It works. It helps me bear my cross with non-believers and drop-outs. I am not God. I can only participate, joyfully and even clumsily, in the mystery of the faith.
Glory! Isn’t it so revelatory? To be honest tho, I could not have understood this when I went to university in the ‘80s. I find it riveting now though.
Bishop Barron: This has been my most favorite program so far. The discussion was fascinating. I am new to Professor Deneen. But, thanks to your program, I just ordered his two latest books. I hope that you will bring back Professor Deneen to continue this discussion. As a seasoned pastor, the challenge, of course, is how to reach not only the parishioners in the pews, but the multitudes that are out there, perhaps lost in many ways. I have often wondered if there are, in fact, inherent flaws in our founding that have brought us to where we are today. I am 68 years old, so I grew up in the world of the death of JFK, Vietnam, Vatican 2, JP II, Reagan…but now we are in something different - much more difficult to navigate than before. Obviously, the Church cannot retreat from the world, but I would say that parish life needs to emerge into something different where there is a strong community which fosters strong bonds of friendship. Fr. James Farfaglia San Diego, Texas
This idea at the end of the video of up and coming college grads returning to serve their own communities is something I think needs to be preached more. Best and brightest aren’t just needed in the hog centers of power, and we have to share our gifts with everyday people. I study literature and I love talking about classic books and important philosophical themes with people who didn’t necessarily graduate from fancy institutions. It’s one of the most rewarding things to do. Preach the gospel in a down to earth way to regular people. Fantastic conversation that gives structure to a lot of ideas that had been living vaguely in the minds of young adults like me and people I know. Wish Aristotle was more widely taught in public schools, lol. This is great though. God bless!
The more that Aristotle, and then also St. Thomas Aquinas introduced to younger generations the more they begin to adopt those insights. It has to be explained in different perspectives over a course of years in order to “stick”. They may not know that the good they are doing is Aristotelian or Thomist, but they know it fas a positive effect on their lives and communities.
I'm Canadian but the discussions I hear between you and your guests help me understand at least a tiny bit some of the chaos in our present world. God bless you Bishop Barron.
Did the professor or the Bishop mention Jesus during that conversation? Lately, I have been thinking and praying a lot about what it means to be human and Jesus tells us that fundamentally we are children of God and our purpose is to share in God's divine nature and in this life we do that by loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves. That leads to happiness. There is nothing valuable in our tradition on focusing on our individual needs. Rather, our nature, purpose and destiny is all about loving relationships with God and others. How do we build a political philosophy based on that? Also, do I understand correctly that both the political right and left are different manifestations of the liberal political philosophy of the 18th century?
I'm teaching fifth-grade American history at a Catholic school. A spontaneous idea popped into my head. Maybe one already exists--however, it would be very helpful to have a Catholic historian write an American History textbook for children. I wonder how different it would read from the mainstream American publishers' versions.
“The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History” by Tom Woods fits that description, but it’s not really written from a distinctly Catholic lense as far as I remember. Still worth a read though.
The inability of this partial situation to preclude the spirit of another age in the bold type of the actual charity is the most rampaging deception in prehistory. The biggest egret is a white wading bird that is supported and promoted by you to a poorly conditioned and manifest laity. Shame on you!
Great discussion. I, like many others, think that a discussion like this should have gone long form. Bishop Barron and Dr. Deneen could unpack other areas that young people like myself can further consider.
This video brought me great relief as I recently decided to leave McKinsey because I felt I was surrounded by the exact sort of elites that you are talking about that have so little true impact and so separate from society (not to mention cultures of excess and unimaginable wealth disparity). It was making me sick and anxious. I had been telling myself that I wanted to move to a smaller city or community and do good there but have been very concerned that I am abandoning the responsibility to multiply the talents given to me by God. I don't know what my path will look like now but I rewatched the end of this video multiple times and I will return to it again in the future to reflect further. Thank you so so much (and please pray for me hahah)
Thank you once again for an inspiring talk and teaching. I guess the call to action is for us to be good men and women in our communities and to find those who already are and model our lives after them. And if by some chance we find none then we have our Saints. Thanks be to God.
God the Living God the creator has created us with absolute freedom this is the great drama of human freedom . We can choose Truth or Falsehood , Life or Death, Good or Evil the choice is ours. When the link between God and man has been severed we are on our way to perdition. Only divine intervention can save us now and it will!
This talk is reminiscent of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 1978 Harvard Commencement Speech. In the speech Solzhenitsyn decries a society that relies on developing societal laws while ignoring the development of individual virtue. Dr. Peter Kreeft does a wonderful recall of this speech, which he was in attendance for, in a talk/video easily found for those interested. Like this video, Dr. Kreeft's analysis of that speech is a must.
That is a great video! I have watched it many times. That speech is extremely relevant to American society today. Either nothing has changed since 78', or things have gotten progressively worse. The latter seems to be the case.
Gentleman, thank you for taking the time. I loved every word, even when you both were swimming in familiar waters and then threw me into the deep end . You lost me at so many places . I had a lousy education and an even lousier formation. There were a few thoughts that came to my mind during the discussion. One was, careful what you wish for, you just might get it. The next was , as we run through this jungle of life , one is going to end up serving someone or something, and that love conquers all even when the ego and the uneducated have the inability to accept others freedoms and rights . I have no idea if I just made any sense at all . What I do know is you both had me most of the night thinking way too much . I’m not that complicated. Lol
I am a practicing Catholic, and I along with many of my parishioners, men & women, we are happily voting blue! 🙏🏼🇺🇸💙🙏🏼 Regarding pro-life and abortion, how about the blood, on Trumps hands, for the millions of people that died because of his botched response to Covid, or the lack thereof. The blood of the 9 people that died Jan 6th, from the Insurrection initiated by Trump, or the over 5,000 families whose kids were separated, at the border, and many remain separated, because Trump’s administration had no reunification plan in place-how about all these lives? Trump is a convicted felon-34 felonies, & more pending, he is a convicted & adjudicated rapist, a convicted racist. Christians understand, he blasphemed the Bible but adding to it-Revelation 22:18 and then he grifted it- Trump stole more than $600 million from the American people, by not paying his taxes. He stole from his own charity, he cheated on all 4 of his wives, was divorces 3 times. He denigrated America’s service men & women, including purple heart recipients. Trump is a malignant narcissist, pathological liar, and the biggest deceiver-sound familiar! God will forgive abortion, he will forgive, gays, & lesbians, but the one sin God will NEVER forgive-is the devil-the father of lies and the great deceiver. Listen up ALL Christians, Trump is the devil! To save America’s Constitutional Federal Republic government from being dismantled, by Trumps billionaire buddies who pay no or very little taxes-Vote Blue💙🇺🇸💙
We will indeed rekindle the "pre-Hobbesian" sense of the good. Today, evil is so flagrant, so aggressive, and so antithetical to even the average person's sensibilities, that the ground is ripe for such a change. Once again, it will take for us all to NOT STAY SILENT.
Thank you for this thought-provoking conversation. The point at the end about the influence of artists and of people looking to these cultural figures as models of how to live life made me think of the poet Walt Whitman. Whitman was writing in the 19th century, the same time period as other philosophers that were discussed during this conversation. Contrast Whitman's "Song of Myself" with his contemporary Gerard Manley Hopkins's "Grandeur of God" and wee see the different views on freedom and happiness quite clearly. We need more Catholic poets! As they say, politics is downstream from culture.
I truly believe that God uses imperfect people to bring hope to the world. The Cold War was a constant presence in Americans' lives. The fears grew into what many observers believe was a full-blown emotionally charged behavior that seemed excessive and out of control in the United States. We looked at the September 11 attacks. Both towers collapsed because people built and threw grenades or bombs that practiced attack and watched atomic devastation, causing Americans to be worried about the spread of communism. The United States of America helped in the Vietnam War because of threatened their freedoms, their individuality, and their way of living then spread to Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, and the rest of Asia. We are loved by God. We are called to love like Him. The extent to which we love one another. According to the Holy Gospel, God uses people to help Him. God looks for people with a pure heart, a clean mind, and a sense of commitment. For example, Patrick J. Deneen is described as a servant who left shepherding sheep to shepherd God's people. God bless America. Jesus, I trust in You!!! Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us. St. Joseph and St. Cecilia, pray for us. St. Cynthia, pray for us. St. Matthew, pray for us. St. Sarah, pray for us. St. Anne, pray for us. Praying for you Cecilia Dreger and family(🕛 keep lives safe)🙏🏿Bishop Thomas and Father Raj.
I also have a comment about Lord of the Flies. We read it in high school in the late '60s and the teacher said it was about what happens when kids are unsupervised. I think it's about human nature and what happens when there is no structure to a society or to a culture. It reminds me of the cultural revolution in this country that occurred in the 60s which famously became non-conformist and throwing off all those institutions like marriage and religion. Lord of the Flies is also a movie made in the 60s. Very good.
Don’t forget when talking about Hobbes, he’s writing during the chaos of the Civil War. As he was writing, he was seeing the collapse of the Common Good of a structured, safe society.
Great conversation. A very good description and analysis of 'how we got here' after 200+ years of the 'Enlightenment' and the 19th century wave of 'Classical Liberalism', from two very eloquent people.
“Diplomacy is the art of managing double standards [ie, of managing double thinks - non-objectivity]” (so said Josep Borrell, the EU’s High Representative ...) … the Hobbesian modernity is “management of” my subjectivity over yours - & ultimately, it places everything before the altar of power/force … places everything on the imposition of (my) will by force (autocracy) … of the “rules based order” … & this is called “Realism” … "Realpolitik" ... “This is by far one of the most profound and important questions facing the West in the next few decades. Speaking is Hubert Védrine, France's former Foreign Minister and Secretary-General of the French presidency under president Mitterrand. He says the West, "descendants of Christendom", is "consumed by the spirit of proselytism". That Saint Paul's "go and evangelize all nations" has become "go and spread human rights [aka, Our/Western Will] to all the world"... And that this proselytism is extremely deep in our DNA: "Even the very least religious, totally atheists, they still have this in mind, [even though] they don't know where it comes from." He believes this is "one of the biggest questions that towers over the daily question of diplomatic life", whether we can imagine a West that manages to preserve the societies it has birthed but "is not proselytizing, not interventionist?". In other words, a West that can accept alterity, that can live with others and accept them for who they are. He says this "is not a problem of the diplomatic machines, it's a philosophical issue, it's a problem for thinkers, analysts, historians, philosophers". In short, it's a question of profound soul-searching, a deep cultural change that needs to happen. He doesn't seem to be particularly optimistic this change will occur: "In the elites, [or at least] people who have access to the public debate, only 5 or 10% of them don't think our main mission is to spread our values around the entire world. By means of lectures, sanctions, and bombings." He says however that there's no choice as "we are not going to become the bosses of the world that's coming. So we are forced to think beyond, we are forced to envision a new relationship for the future between the Western world and the famous global South." Can we accept to live with others, without seeking to transform them into us? Extremely profound question. And what happens if we can't get to accept this? Then we'll continue being marginalized, increasingly cut from the rest of the world, and increasingly despised for our misplaced sense of superiority.” “ (Arnaud Bertrand on X) How to be objective in these malaise of subjectivities?
When politics has devolved into repetitious party-line talking points and memes, going over the core values and fundamental questions is much appreciated. If I were to design Prof. Deneen's thoughts for a class, I would add Archbishop Chaput's book, Things Worth Dying For, to assist the class in finding solutions -- personal and societal.
Victor Orban p 58:21 reclaims that his government is the example of post liberalism. That is, Hungary is " an illiberal democracy." He has garnered total control of dissemination of information to the public, reconstituted the judiciary to conform completely to his dictum, lavished family and friends with wealth stolen from the public coffers, and so on. Do you really consider this a better alternative to liberal democracy?
Just read 'Why liberalism failed' very good, I recommend it. He is spot on when he says that these problems come from within the liberal tradition. These are not foreign problems. These ideas originated in our British tradition.
Most grateful for this thought-provoking conversation. Our culture desperately needs a course correction from radical individualism and a focus on fulfilling an individual's desires, to cultivating individual and collective virtue. Unless we recapture a shared notion of the good, the true and the beautiful, we will remain in our innumerable enclaves whose interactions are refereed by a "neutral" State.
I've always thought the pursuit of happiness sounds like a dog chasing its tail. Am I happy enough yet? Where can I get more of this happiness material? If one is oriented towards action for the benefit of others, happiness can be a by-product. As a pursuit in itself, happiness appears to be an introspective spiral downwards.
Jefferson originally wanted to say " life, liberty, and property," but ownership of property was not available to all. So he substituted with "pursuit of happiness," meaning the freedom to pursue a course in life that may bring fulfillment of purpose and/or a happy existence. It's not really referring to introspection or some kind of elusive "perfect happiness."
To everyone who enjoyed this excellent discussion, look up the Pints With Aquinas episode featuring Dr Andrew Willard Jones. If you liked this, you will like that interview as well.
Extremely interesting discussion. The current ideological society appears lost and devoid of principles and values to mere standards and ideals. Our former great state of Arizona has digressed to Calizona. Young and middle aged parents radiate a me, myself and I mentality. One guess on how their children engage. Tomorrow, anyone’s guess.
What a great intellectual conversation spoken in understandable terms of simplicity. Interesting thought-provoking ideas of history discussed with a mutual respect.
Interesting, especially because I Cafer myself a liberal. I don’t have the same definition as the Professor, nonetheless I believe we have lost the bulutu to ethically evaluate choices and have not done a good job of teaching American children the importance of accepting core community ethics and principles.
Great point @ 59:00....how is the Faith going to be alive for the average, non-intellectual Catholic? Answer: A gorgeous liturgy that breathes the air of heaven. Vide: EF.
"IF WE ARE TO BE DEPRIVED OF THE CONCEPTS OF GOOD AND EVIL, WHAT WILL BE LEFT? NOTHING BUT THE MANIPULATION OF ONE ANOTHER. WE WILL SINK TO THE STATUS OF ANIMALS." --ALEKSANDR SOLZHENITSYN (Sorry for the caps I copied and pasted from an image…) “And, For Origen aloyía means not only irrationality, but also an existential state and mood of enmity against Reason.”-Guilty of Genius: Origen and the Theory of Transmigration, Panayiotis Tzamalikos (2022)
Jesus was working poor. He lived the struggles that many of our brothers and sisters live through. To escape from your social responsibility, is escaping Christ.
This was a very interesting conversation. I hope it happens again. Never really saw how the founding had these self inflicting mortals wounds but it makes sense since its based on the protestant worldview.
As person grown up in protestant culture and a life-long Social Democrat, I see the perils of the rational right and left (here I am excluding the radical sides of both aisle). I do see the overemphasis on Social justice over everything is biting Western late-capitslistic societies in the tail. And I see and I will always blame the perils of neoliberalism of Reagan/Thatcher. I thing socities should remain with common values (written in constituitions and laws) and through policies and public spending. F.ex. I dont see the humanity in paying lifelong unemployment support to a single man living in his parents basement, smoking weed and jerking off to porn. On the other side, I equally dont see the humanity in not helping young people to subsidize their housing while establishing a family.
It is not my role to affirm or deny political views. The question I would like to posit at this time is how does this lead back to the Authority of Jesus Christ. And one more thought: the more one looks into the Gospel, the more clear it becomes that Jesus Christ already answered every question. Progress, I think, looks more like abiding in Jesus Christ and praising God Can you imagine the progress we could make if we spent as much energy as we do, on all this extraneous stuff, on truly focussing on that which Jesus commanded?
Thank you, fellow Christian. I would like to comment, that the One Who actually nailed it was Jesus Christ, when He went into the synagogue with a whip of cords and turned the money changers tables over. I ask myself, if That Man was going to lay down one truth, prior to being crucified, and have that truth extended, not as a project, but what is going to happen, based upon what the truth is; what is real and what is not and why - Jesus Christ made it clear. Quite clear.
I agree with much of the criticism discussed early in the video, particularly the current interpretation of freedom, but I’m left with questions/criticisms of my own regarding this discussion. Despite the imperfections of liberal democracy, can you not acknowledge that if it weren’t for it, you might not be freely having this discussion then broadcasting over UA-cam? What style of government would you think would be better? Please tell me of a type of government that has endured history? You criticize free market capitalism, but I argue that the lack thereof in the form of crony capitalism is the obstacle to the distributist vision of Pope Leo and Chesterton. Political leaders in cahoots with industry leaders creating barriers in the form of regulations is a much bigger problem than free markets. Are you suggesting government redistribution? I think history shows us how that works out. Much of the critique is spot on but I’m not sure that you offer much as a viable solution. I believe religious schools need to form students to live a virtuous life so that they exercise self mastery. In a land of self government, people need to learn how to govern themselves.
@@tookie36 was government Christ’s message? In a free society, what is stopping anyone from living Christ’s message? In the US, Catholic citizens can look to our faith to inform our political decisions. Catholics politicians can look to their faith to inform their policy decisions even though they often do not. What is the alternative, impose Catholic teaching on the government? When has this worked? In an already pluralistic society, how does one go about making the government Catholic? God gave everyone a free will even though He knew we often would not choose Him. He does not impose Himself on us. In a free society, people need to be taught that true freedom is living a life in accord with God’s will. I do not see why this cannot be done in the US.
VERY interesting... however, because of internet interruption @ current location, I'll continue watching these 2 excellent gentlemen's discussion later.
To show how things have changed: I was a nursing student in a large secular city hospital in New England from 1970-73. The OB-GYN department did tubal ligation (tying a woman's fallopian tubes to end her reproductive life), but they wouldn't do it for unmarried women or women with no children. If a couple was married, the husband and wife had to apply for this surgery to a hospital committee made up of doctors, nurses, and clergy and maybe others. When the woman was admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was "multiparity",meaning multiple births. Once a young nursing instructor asked a doctor why, and he said he didn't want some irate husband coming after him with a gun. This hospital did not do abortions. I don't know whether men who wanted vasectomy had to do the same. Vasectomy was done in the doctor's office, not hospital. But most doctors were decent guys who would want the wife's consent also.
I'd love to see a conversation with a man like George Weigel, who would be the heir of the thought of JP2, Michael Novak, Frs Neuhaus and Sirico, etc who all make a strong Catholic case for a version of western liberalism as a great force for good.
The transcendentalists and the christian mystics are on the right track. When you find the Christ within then you understand the point of virtue, it begins to adjust naturally to the greater good. Rulesetting and guilt tripping fails after adolescence, especially when leaders fail to do unto others what they would have done to them. These are not incompatible with the Church but if Catholicism wants to succeed in the long run it needs to adapt to a learning people and not the other way around.
This was a thoughtful conversation providing critical insight on tue shortfalls of liberalism. However, towards the end of the discussion they justify estate coercion to accomplish wealth redistribution. Completely unexpected for these committed men of virtue to abandon the true, the good and the beautiful in the last minute.
True that Liberalism inhabits today’s political left and right, but the example Deneen focuses on-ie, the wealth inequality supposedly disregarded by the right-is not a prima facie deprivation of the good in the way that the sexual libertinism embraced by the left is. Indeed, there is nothing inherently unjust about wealth or income disparity arrived at without artifice or theft, and today’s poor enjoy a standard of living that far surpasses that of yesterday’s kings. To find that type of wealth disparity intrinsically offensive is to embrace (if unwittingly) the Enlightenment philosophers’ view of human nature and society as essentially competitive and in conflict. It also seems to be grounded in a kind of jealousy that is not the proper orientation of man towards his neighbor. The modern economic systems of the West have produced unprecedented prosperity generally-and, yes, select super-wealthy individuals like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, etc. who donate the vast majority of their largess to charity. If Liberalism has its flaws, I’m not sure that kind of distributed wealth is one of them…
It is possible today’s material conditions represent an authentic development of Christian spiritual development. It is also a relatively foreign concept to the gospel and Christian tradition, in which liberty is frequently undermined by a justified concept of sovereignty allowing itself prudential nuance in the face of matters of salvation.
Are you sure there is nothing inherently unjust about wealth or income gained without artifice or theft? Can we say the virtue of religion is giving God His due? And when Jesus says, 'You cannot serve God and mammon...' [Matthew 6:24] and, 'it is easier for a Camel (Lamsa says "rope" is a better translation from Aramaic) to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." [Matthew 19:24] Or, '...Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." [Luke 6:24] The parable of Dives and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-26] doesn't indicate Dives came about his wealth by artifice or theft. There is also the example of Christians who, for a time, had great wealth, but during their own lifetime, gave it all away. I'm particularly thinking of St. Anthony of Egypt, St. Nicholas of Myra, and St. Katherine Drexel of Philadelphia. I haven't thoroughly researched this, I've either read or heard Bill Gates has promoted artificial contraception among impoverished people to stem overpopulation. If this is the case, he'd do better totally staying out of it. I also heard he was using money to promote abortion in similar circumstances. If this is the case, how is that not worse than what Ezekiel condemns the Sodomites for? [Ezekiel 16:49]
Please read Tyranny Inc. by Sohrab Ahmari and then you’ll better understand the corporate structure under the modern liberal order. This is the broken economic order that’s ignored by the neocon right and left (ie uniparty) and has led to unprecedented wealth disparity.
Dear Lord please accept me and my children and Grandchildren all to be included in the rapture that you have told us about. Please don’t leave us behind Lord Jesus. Amen
The Holy Spirits role to deal with the inner tyrant ? Sanctification is a relational gift from God . Objective values written on the heart by the Holy Spirit . Establishing values from a new nature to serve a community from a new heart . Christianity from a new humility in submission to his will. “This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.” Hebrews 8:10 NIV
Its good to be a little tirant because every inividium has different needs and he only is the best to decide what he want from life and how to. But there are norms, law and democracy to prevent us from the lord of the flies outcome. Why mention Hobbes and aristotle and so on - read an talk about Immanuel Kant and one will get familiar to an idea of freedom/liberal in a quite pure form and the most minimal boundaries that should be set up... Maybe its also a good idea to leave philosophy aside which is very theoretical and stays there; sometimes turns into a sort of ideologY and just talk about economic Modells : how can we build a fair economy sphere and make it more open and fairer every day.
I always learn so much from Barron's discussions like this one with Deneen. As a proud cafeteria Catholic, I always appreciate that every Catholic I know is also a cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing particular teachings, sins, or rituals and Barron and Deneen are no different. They both agree that liberalism failed, but they do not agree on how to fix the liberal notion of freedom to choose from the Catholic cafeteria of tolerance for other's sins. I like the Catholic teachings about how to live a good and moral life, but do not like the rituals or going to church. The tolerance of Religious pluralism has only one certain outcome: the emergence of an common secular Religion that tolerates a certain amount of sin...
Around an hour in, the discussion of a need for political power to limit the concentration of economic power seems to me to completely miss the nature of earthly power, per se. Economic power is bolstered by political power, not limited by it. Amazon was a staunch opponent of a the idea of internet sales tax in the US until they incurred tax liability in every state because of their distribution centers, at which point they flipped 180 degrees in an attempt to foist the tax liability that they had acquired gradually as they grew onto all of the startups that might emerge to compete with them. Regulations protect monopolies by making market entry cost prohibitive. Minimum wage laws price small startups out of the labor market, but large national chains can usually afford the added costs, or the investment in automation to replace the workers is the cost is too high. McDonald’s can afford to invest in self service kiosks and food prep robots, but the family diner down the street can’t. Political power and economic power are both concentrations of earthly power, and they can’t be divided against each other because they are both tools of the same master. Political power gives the illusion of restraining economic power, but in reality it only selects the economic winners and protects them from Competition.
Push through that thinking. The Church needs both. They are both "Essential Worker's" for God. Saints are Prayer Partner 's. Chose one you perceive as Ordinary and one who is Intellectual. You will recognize a growth towards God. To be Small is a Fruit
Okay, I got to the 14 minute mark and that's as far as I'm willing to go with this guy. It's like he has a fundamental misreading of Hobbes and Locke and he sees Hobbes as the only way to set up a society, a philosopher king to borrow from Plato. He uses terms like utility and people being allowed to have their little bits of freedom but he fails to mention who will decide who gets what freedom. Terms matter as well. Liberalism, in it's classical sense, meant having the freedom to act on your own self-interest provided you stayed within the confines of the social compact. That's Locke. That's the system our founders put in place. Government was needed to protect life, liberty, and property, not to make sure people stayed in line like this guy is suggesting. The commies are great at stealing terms and making them their own, nice sounding words like liberalism and progressivism. I mean who doesn't like liberty and progress right? This guy makes the mistake of using those terms as defined by the other side to make his argument. His solution is no different than obama's, a top-down bureaucracy to manage people's day-to-day transactions. There was no internal flaw, no ticking time-bomb inside the system our founders created, it was placed there by people antithetical to representative republicanism which is the Lokean model our founders established. This guy makes it sound like our founding was closer to the French Revolution than the American one. And Bishop Barron seems to have a rather sympathetic view of Hobbes as well. Maybe he's just being agreeable, he does have a tendency to not push back during these one-on-one exchanges, but I dunno. I may have to rethink my position on him. And in case you're wondering, I'm about as conservative a guy as you are going to find, and I'm homeless from a political standpoint as a result. Democrats don't want me, republicans don't want me, MAGA doesn't want me, and the libertarians, well even if they wanted me that would be a hard no on my part. But I don't like authoritarians and I get the sense this guy sees some form of authoritarian rule, be it a government or a theocracy, as the answer. Guys like him are the problem, no matter who they pretend to represent. I'm outta here on this one.
Its pretty sad at the end you portrayed the good man as the educated elite. You portray that as the person who gives the faith to the commoner. Was Jesus or His Apostles the educated elites? What you represent there is closer to Thomas Sowell's Vision of the Anointed than the Scriptural and Church witness. Paul who was had to meet Jesu to be set straight. The end of this discussion went all astray and I really feel you mat not understand Jesus is real and still actually meets people. Mother Mary, Holy Angels and Saints do as well. The supernatural is lost, not discussed or not believed in this conversation. The reality of it is the supernatural is what is centrally ignored creating much of the problems you think you are going to solve. The supernatural is the solution…. But do you believe the witnesses God has sent? How often has God sent people witnessing this topic for it to be viewed as crazy, demonic, or imaginary? People meeting Christ or those He sends and believing as Holy Mother Mary did the Angel Gabriel or as St Paul did Our Lord is what is needed or those at Fatima.
Brilliant content but you NEED MORE LIGHT. A suggested critique of your production quality. Your aim for 'a definitive aesthetic look', with 'mood' in low lighting, against pure black background, with subjects also wearing black, is not optimum in carrying your message of 'shining light' on complex topics. You aim to help us 'see more clearly' the shadowy topics we are trying to grasp. Profound issues that need illumination Your efforts for aesthetic sophistication is admirable but to aim 'higher' in its attempt to be 'artistic'. Open apertures or give some more light to your subjects and backlight them or something. The genre you are in is not 'filmic' nor 'narrative' you are in 'expose' and 'interview' on UA-cam. We use all sizes of screens in day light or night light - not one big film screen in a movie house! Your 'image' is too dark and too flat, almost 2 dimensional. Low, warm, glow-like, orange lighting risks the clarity of your focus. I hope you can see this metaphorically too. I suggest your aesthetic choices should better match your mission to 'illuminate ' subjects. It seems you want a 'simple image' without 'backgrounds of books and stuff' which is great - but the image needs more light and dimension. A directorial decision should aim to lift the theme of 'light' in your visual not like the bright light of TV News but well, I'm sure your 'lighting' / directors can figure it out if you agree with my critique or choose to consider it. I just want you to 'be better' - forgive me. I highly respect and love your mission. I professionally understand how a deep artistic desire to 'be unique and outstanding ' in your presentation, can sometimes negate other aspects of the genre you work in and can diminish the impact you seek in your 'mission'. It's subtle but artistically relevant and therefore relevant to 'your message' too. God Bless you Bishop and all who work on this channel.
Matthew 7:3-5 (New International Version):3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Interesting discussion with one exemption, these two aren't giving up their day jobs, when the facts change, they don't. Ironically if you read Joseph Henrich book, the weirdest people in the world, it may have been the Church itself who created the idea of the "individual" with it's desire to break up the family (very large sense) that lead to a document like your constitution
I would be remiss to say - don’t underestimate those in the trades. We listen to these sorts of podcasts while we drive, and we feel we are gaining a college education and more by doing so. The intellectual side of Catholicism, with the advent of the Internet, has reached all the way down to every strata of human society.
Absolutely. I manage a few Jersey Mike’s and I listen to all these sorts of podcasts and shows while I’m driving and opening stores. We have way more time than the average person to absorb all this information.
I hear you! I'm a manual worker, and people tend to constantly underestimate our intelligence and culture. While we do routine tasks, we have time to think about a lot of things. While many university graduates often do fairly banal work, but that still requires their undivided attention, we can do philosophy as we work!
I am an ordinary person, as you say towards the end of the video. Through my coming back to faith, I found my way to your books and others like you. It’s taken some effort and, yes at times a dictionary! But I am now not only able to understand this conversation but can articulate the ideas to others. Thanks!
I echo @Pilgrimofhope7 . Decades ago I sat on the sidelines listening to others mesmerized by their libertarian ideas. There was always something that bugged me in some, namely, the defense of polygamy as the norm in nature. My husband and I loved refuting with examples in nature, of animals mating for life: beavers, albatros, ospreys... 😊 Giving witness to the beauty of monogamy.
I thank God, Bishop Barron, for raising you to be a leader who explains with clarity through different forms of engagement. Through the years, I've learned lots, enough to bring the truth of the Gospel by living it in my community of faith, participating, collaborating, never-ending learning and sharing. It is beautiful. It works. It helps me bear my cross with non-believers and drop-outs. I am not God. I can only participate, joyfully and even clumsily, in the mystery of the faith.
Glory! Isn’t it so revelatory? To be honest tho, I could not have understood this when I went to university in the ‘80s. I find it riveting now though.
Amen!!! Glad to hear that.
My fallen away Catholic friend, brilliant lawyer and historian, was blown away by this conversation. Thank you.
Bishop Barron:
This has been my most favorite program so far. The discussion was fascinating. I am new to Professor Deneen. But, thanks to your program, I just ordered his two latest books. I hope that you will bring back Professor Deneen to continue this discussion. As a seasoned pastor, the challenge, of course, is how to reach not only the parishioners in the pews, but the multitudes that are out there, perhaps lost in many ways. I have often wondered if there are, in fact, inherent flaws in our founding that have brought us to where we are today. I am 68 years old, so I grew up in the world of the death of JFK, Vietnam, Vatican 2, JP II, Reagan…but now we are in something different - much more difficult to navigate than before. Obviously, the Church cannot retreat from the world, but I would say that parish life needs to emerge into something different where there is a strong community which fosters strong bonds of friendship.
Fr. James Farfaglia
San Diego, Texas
Thanks for this comment. I agree with you completely. This was an amazing conversation and I hope more Catholics buy into the ideas presented here.
This idea at the end of the video of up and coming college grads returning to serve their own communities is something I think needs to be preached more. Best and brightest aren’t just needed in the hog centers of power, and we have to share our gifts with everyday people. I study literature and I love talking about classic books and important philosophical themes with people who didn’t necessarily graduate from fancy institutions. It’s one of the most rewarding things to do. Preach the gospel in a down to earth way to regular people. Fantastic conversation that gives structure to a lot of ideas that had been living vaguely in the minds of young adults like me and people I know. Wish Aristotle was more widely taught in public schools, lol. This is great though. God bless!
The more that Aristotle, and then also St. Thomas Aquinas introduced to younger generations the more they begin to adopt those insights. It has to be explained in different perspectives over a course of years in order to “stick”. They may not know that the good they are doing is Aristotelian or Thomist, but they know it fas a positive effect on their lives and communities.
CNN
Great comment. Thank you.
Please do a longer series with this guest! He is great!
I'm Canadian but the discussions I hear between you and your guests help me understand at least a tiny bit some of the chaos in our present world. God bless you Bishop Barron.
Did the professor or the Bishop mention Jesus during that conversation? Lately, I have been thinking and praying a lot about what it means to be human and Jesus tells us that fundamentally we are children of God and our purpose is to share in God's divine nature and in this life we do that by loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves. That leads to happiness. There is nothing valuable in our tradition on focusing on our individual needs. Rather, our nature, purpose and destiny is all about loving relationships with God and others. How do we build a political philosophy based on that?
Also, do I understand correctly that both the political right and left are different manifestations of the liberal political philosophy of the 18th century?
Thank you for bringing Patrick to our attention!
This was so enlightening and rich from both the Prof and the Bishop that I am wanting to delve into the aisles of American history!!
I wish these were also on Spotify
May God Bless You All ❤❤❤
✨🙌🏼✨ … ✨🙏🏼✨
I'm teaching fifth-grade American history at a Catholic school. A spontaneous idea popped into my head. Maybe one already exists--however, it would be very helpful to have a Catholic historian write an American History textbook for children. I wonder how different it would read from the mainstream American publishers' versions.
“The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History” by Tom Woods fits that description, but it’s not really written from a distinctly Catholic lense as far as I remember. Still worth a read though.
"Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power." Oscar Wilde "The love of money(power) is the root of all evil."
Catholic Textbook Project is exactly about that.
Paul Johnson, Catholic British historian
It has to be written by a true Catholic not a liberal including liberal conservatives in mind Catholic in name
Amazing conversation, two great men discerning the sign of the times. Inspiration on our journey heavenward.
May God bless you both🙏🏼
The inability of this partial situation to preclude the spirit of another age in the bold type of the actual charity is the most rampaging deception in prehistory. The biggest egret is a white wading bird that is supported and promoted by you to a poorly conditioned and manifest laity. Shame on you!
Great discussion. I, like many others, think that a discussion like this should have gone long form. Bishop Barron and Dr. Deneen could unpack other areas that young people like myself can further consider.
Bishop Barron is too busy for that
This video brought me great relief as I recently decided to leave McKinsey because I felt I was surrounded by the exact sort of elites that you are talking about that have so little true impact and so separate from society (not to mention cultures of excess and unimaginable wealth disparity). It was making me sick and anxious. I had been telling myself that I wanted to move to a smaller city or community and do good there but have been very concerned that I am abandoning the responsibility to multiply the talents given to me by God. I don't know what my path will look like now but I rewatched the end of this video multiple times and I will return to it again in the future to reflect further. Thank you so so much (and please pray for me hahah)
Please do it!! Take your talent to a smaller community and become a leader and contributor there. Your life will be rich in so many ways!!
You aren’t doing any good feeding the beast. It’s incompetent anyway AI could do everything those think tanks do
Thank you once again for an inspiring talk and teaching. I guess the call to action is for us to be good men and women in our communities and to find those who already are and model our lives after them. And if by some chance we find none then we have our Saints. Thanks be to God.
God enjoys using people who are unlikely to take credit or seek magnificence for themselves. Problematic, huh?
I enjoyed program, thank you for sharing. Our hope is in the Name of the Lord.
The conversation at the end about how to bring this down to earth is so key.
God the Living God the creator has created us with absolute freedom this is the great drama of human freedom . We can choose Truth or Falsehood , Life or Death, Good or Evil the choice is ours. When the link between God and man has been severed we are on our way to perdition. Only divine intervention can save us now and it will!
So true.
Jesus said that to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
Great show with two of my favourite Catholics!
This talk is reminiscent of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 1978 Harvard Commencement Speech. In the speech Solzhenitsyn decries a society that relies on developing societal laws while ignoring the development of individual virtue. Dr. Peter Kreeft does a wonderful recall of this speech, which he was in attendance for, in a talk/video easily found for those interested. Like this video, Dr. Kreeft's analysis of that speech is a must.
That is a great video! I have watched it many times. That speech is extremely relevant to American society today. Either nothing has changed since 78', or things have gotten progressively worse. The latter seems to be the case.
Where can I find each speech? the Commencement and Dr. Kreeft's recall?
Probably google it.@@michaelryan9833
I am also interested in the link! 😊
Gentleman, thank you for taking the time. I loved every word, even when you both were swimming in familiar waters and then threw me into the deep end . You lost me at so many places . I had a lousy education and an even lousier formation. There were a few thoughts that came to my mind during the discussion. One was, careful what you wish for, you just might get it. The next was , as we run through this jungle of life , one is going to end up serving someone or something, and that love conquers all even when the ego and the uneducated have the inability to accept others freedoms and rights . I have no idea if I just made any sense at all . What I do know is you both had me most of the night thinking way too much . I’m not that complicated. Lol
This is such a wholesome and humble comment. Im smiling reading it. God bless you!
@@friedawells6860 thank you ….
We need more upward mobility. My father was a carpenter and I was able to go to an elite school and get a PhD. That is rare now.
It’s not just rare it doesn’t exist at all. Not at all.
I am a practicing Catholic, and I along with many of my parishioners, men & women, we are happily voting blue! 🙏🏼🇺🇸💙🙏🏼
Regarding pro-life and abortion, how about the blood, on Trumps hands, for the millions of people that died because of his botched response to Covid, or the lack thereof. The blood of the 9 people that died Jan 6th, from the Insurrection initiated by Trump, or the over 5,000 families whose kids were separated, at the border, and many remain separated, because Trump’s administration had no reunification plan in place-how about all these lives?
Trump is a convicted felon-34 felonies, & more pending, he is a convicted & adjudicated rapist, a convicted racist.
Christians understand, he blasphemed the Bible but adding to it-Revelation 22:18 and then he grifted it-
Trump stole more than $600 million from the American people, by not paying his taxes. He stole from his own charity, he cheated on all 4 of his wives, was divorces 3 times. He denigrated America’s service men & women, including purple heart recipients. Trump is a malignant narcissist, pathological liar, and the biggest deceiver-sound familiar!
God will forgive abortion, he will forgive, gays, & lesbians, but the one sin God will NEVER forgive-is the devil-the father of lies and the great deceiver. Listen up ALL Christians, Trump is the devil!
To save America’s Constitutional Federal Republic government from being dismantled, by Trumps billionaire buddies who pay no or very little taxes-Vote Blue💙🇺🇸💙
We will indeed rekindle the "pre-Hobbesian" sense of the good. Today, evil is so flagrant, so aggressive, and so antithetical to even the average person's sensibilities, that the ground is ripe for such a change. Once again, it will take for us all to NOT STAY SILENT.
Enjoyed !
Thank you for this thought-provoking conversation. The point at the end about the influence of artists and of people looking to these cultural figures as models of how to live life made me think of the poet Walt Whitman. Whitman was writing in the 19th century, the same time period as other philosophers that were discussed during this conversation. Contrast Whitman's "Song of Myself" with his contemporary Gerard Manley Hopkins's "Grandeur of God" and wee see the different views on freedom and happiness quite clearly. We need more Catholic poets! As they say, politics is downstream from culture.
I truly believe that God uses imperfect people to bring hope to the world. The Cold War was a constant presence in Americans' lives. The fears grew into what many observers believe was a full-blown emotionally charged behavior that seemed excessive and out of control in the United States. We looked at the September 11 attacks. Both towers collapsed because people built and threw grenades or bombs that practiced attack and watched atomic devastation, causing Americans to be worried about the spread of communism. The United States of America helped in the Vietnam War because of threatened their freedoms, their individuality, and their way of living then spread to Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, and the rest of Asia. We are loved by God. We are called to love like Him. The extent to which we love one another. According to the Holy Gospel, God uses people to help Him. God looks for people with a pure heart, a clean mind, and a sense of commitment. For example, Patrick J. Deneen is described as a servant who left shepherding sheep to shepherd God's people. God bless America. Jesus, I trust in You!!!
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
St. Joseph and St.
Cecilia, pray for us.
St. Cynthia, pray for us.
St. Matthew, pray for us.
St. Sarah, pray for us.
St. Anne, pray for us.
Praying for you
Cecilia Dreger and family(🕛 keep lives safe)🙏🏿Bishop Thomas and Father Raj.
I also have a comment about Lord of the Flies. We read it in high school in the late '60s and the teacher said it was about what happens when kids are unsupervised. I think it's about human nature and what happens when there is no structure to a society or to a culture. It reminds me of the cultural revolution in this country that occurred in the 60s which famously became non-conformist and throwing off all those institutions like marriage and religion.
Lord of the Flies is also a movie made in the 60s. Very good.
Great conversation, thank you!
Notre Dame is just cool. No real connection but just feels like home to any Catholic, I think
Don’t forget when talking about Hobbes, he’s writing during the chaos of the Civil War. As he was writing, he was seeing the collapse of the Common Good of a structured, safe society.
Great conversation. A very good description and analysis of 'how we got here' after 200+ years of the 'Enlightenment' and the 19th century wave of 'Classical Liberalism', from two very eloquent people.
“Diplomacy is the art of managing double standards [ie, of managing double thinks - non-objectivity]” (so said Josep Borrell, the EU’s High Representative ...)
… the Hobbesian modernity is “management of” my subjectivity over yours - & ultimately, it places everything before the altar of power/force … places everything on the imposition of (my) will by force (autocracy) … of the “rules based order” … & this is called “Realism” … "Realpolitik" ...
“This is by far one of the most profound and important questions facing the West in the next few decades. Speaking is Hubert Védrine, France's former Foreign Minister and Secretary-General of the French presidency under president Mitterrand.
He says the West, "descendants of Christendom", is "consumed by the spirit of proselytism". That Saint Paul's "go and evangelize all nations" has become "go and spread human rights [aka, Our/Western Will] to all the world"... And that this proselytism is extremely deep in our DNA: "Even the very least religious, totally atheists, they still have this in mind, [even though] they don't know where it comes from."
He believes this is "one of the biggest questions that towers over the daily question of diplomatic life", whether we can imagine a West that manages to preserve the societies it has birthed but "is not proselytizing, not interventionist?". In other words, a West that can accept alterity, that can live with others and accept them for who they are.
He says this "is not a problem of the diplomatic machines, it's a philosophical issue, it's a problem for thinkers, analysts, historians, philosophers". In short, it's a question of profound soul-searching, a deep cultural change that needs to happen.
He doesn't seem to be particularly optimistic this change will occur: "In the elites, [or at least] people who have access to the public debate, only 5 or 10% of them don't think our main mission is to spread our values around the entire world. By means of lectures, sanctions, and bombings."
He says however that there's no choice as "we are not going to become the bosses of the world that's coming. So we are forced to think beyond, we are forced to envision a new relationship for the future between the Western world and the famous global South."
Can we accept to live with others, without seeking to transform them into us? Extremely profound question.
And what happens if we can't get to accept this? Then we'll continue being marginalized, increasingly cut from the rest of the world, and increasingly despised for our misplaced sense of superiority.” “ (Arnaud Bertrand on X)
How to be objective in these malaise of subjectivities?
When politics has devolved into repetitious party-line talking points and memes, going over the core values and fundamental questions is much appreciated. If I were to design Prof. Deneen's thoughts for a class, I would add Archbishop Chaput's book, Things Worth Dying For, to assist the class in finding solutions -- personal and societal.
Thank you
Victor Orban p 58:21 reclaims that his government is the example of post liberalism. That is, Hungary is " an illiberal democracy." He has garnered total control of dissemination of information to the public, reconstituted the judiciary to conform completely to his dictum, lavished family and friends with wealth stolen from the public coffers, and so on. Do you really consider this a better alternative to liberal democracy?
The Rosary
Best one yet
Just read 'Why liberalism failed' very good, I recommend it.
He is spot on when he says that these problems come from within the liberal tradition. These are not foreign problems. These ideas originated in our British tradition.
Thank you BB……my ears and the stuff between them are very happy
This was fantastic and made my day today.
Gm family and friends ❤❤❤❤
Most grateful for this thought-provoking conversation. Our culture desperately needs a course correction from radical individualism and a focus on fulfilling an individual's desires, to cultivating individual and collective virtue. Unless we recapture a shared notion of the good, the true and the beautiful, we will remain in our innumerable enclaves whose interactions are refereed by a "neutral" State.
Looking forward to this, I read Why Liberalism failed and am currently listening to Regime Change
Love these vids
I've always thought the pursuit of happiness sounds like a dog chasing its tail. Am I happy enough yet? Where can I get more of this happiness material? If one is oriented towards action for the benefit of others, happiness can be a by-product. As a pursuit in itself, happiness appears to be an introspective spiral downwards.
So you don’t pursue it directly, but as a by-product of loving others. One might ask, why must love be the cause of that?
Jefferson originally wanted to say " life, liberty, and property," but ownership of property was not available to all. So he substituted with "pursuit of happiness," meaning the freedom to pursue a course in life that may bring fulfillment of purpose and/or a happy existence. It's not really referring to introspection or some kind of elusive "perfect happiness."
Happiness is apparently a mindful effort to transition from self-ish to self-less.
To everyone who enjoyed this excellent discussion, look up the Pints With Aquinas episode featuring Dr Andrew Willard Jones. If you liked this, you will like that interview as well.
Extremely interesting discussion.
The current ideological society appears lost and devoid of principles and values to mere standards and ideals.
Our former great state of Arizona has digressed to Calizona.
Young and middle aged parents radiate a me, myself and I mentality. One guess on how their children engage.
Tomorrow, anyone’s guess.
Is there any way to download the transcript for those with whom who I'd love to share this, but don't want to listen to a podcast
Yes, normally its available here
Good job with the music. That is the bomb!
when will we start speaking about "being" again?
The project was to be free to drink water to stave off thirst……but until now, water remains scarce…a curse, yes…..n a social puzzle God bless❤️
What a great intellectual conversation spoken in understandable terms of simplicity. Interesting thought-provoking ideas of history discussed with a mutual respect.
From Doral FL! 🙌🏻🔥
it was said by st augustine, man should not be concern on what it needs to do, but on what it ought to be...
Interesting, especially because I Cafer myself a liberal. I don’t have the same definition as the Professor, nonetheless I believe we have lost the bulutu to ethically evaluate choices and have not done a good job of teaching American children the importance of accepting core community ethics and principles.
Great point @ 59:00....how is the Faith going to be alive for the average, non-intellectual Catholic? Answer: A gorgeous liturgy that breathes the air of heaven. Vide: EF.
I'm not sure I'll ever understand the Catholic understanding of freedom. If anyone is willing to talk to me about this, I'd be really appreciative.
Freedom is choosing the good. Choosing evil enslaves a person. Ask yourself, if someone freely chooses to be a slave, are they free? No.
"IF WE ARE TO BE DEPRIVED OF THE CONCEPTS OF GOOD AND EVIL, WHAT WILL BE LEFT? NOTHING BUT THE MANIPULATION OF ONE ANOTHER. WE WILL SINK TO THE STATUS OF ANIMALS."
--ALEKSANDR SOLZHENITSYN
(Sorry for the caps I copied and pasted from an image…)
“And, For Origen aloyía means not only irrationality, but also an existential state and mood of enmity against Reason.”-Guilty of Genius: Origen and the Theory of Transmigration, Panayiotis Tzamalikos (2022)
“Be a teacher” - St Thomas Moore in Man for All Seasons.
Jesus was working poor. He lived the struggles that many of our brothers and sisters live through. To escape from your social responsibility, is escaping Christ.
Is it possible that the interviews can be translated into Spanish? Thanks in advance.
Save the transcript and use Google translate. This will give you the text in Spanish
This was a very interesting conversation. I hope it happens again. Never really saw how the founding had these self inflicting mortals wounds but it makes sense since its based on the protestant worldview.
As person grown up in protestant culture and a life-long Social Democrat, I see the perils of the rational right and left (here I am excluding the radical sides of both aisle). I do see the overemphasis on Social justice over everything is biting Western late-capitslistic societies in the tail. And I see and I will always blame the perils of neoliberalism of Reagan/Thatcher.
I thing socities should remain with common values (written in constituitions and laws) and through policies and public spending. F.ex. I dont see the humanity in paying lifelong unemployment support to a single man living in his parents basement, smoking weed and jerking off to porn. On the other side, I equally dont see the humanity in not helping young people to subsidize their housing while establishing a family.
It is not my role to affirm or deny political views. The question I would like to posit at this time is how does this lead back to the Authority of Jesus Christ.
And one more thought: the more one looks into the Gospel, the more clear it becomes that Jesus Christ already answered every question.
Progress, I think, looks more like abiding in Jesus Christ and praising God
Can you imagine the progress we could make if we spent as much energy as we do, on all this extraneous stuff, on truly focussing on that which Jesus commanded?
You hit the nail on the head
It’s not what you know
It’s what you do
God Bless,
gpb
Thank you, fellow Christian. I would like to comment, that the One Who actually nailed it was Jesus Christ, when He went into the synagogue with a whip of cords and turned the money changers tables over. I ask myself, if That Man was going to lay down one truth, prior to being crucified, and have that truth extended, not as a project, but what is going to happen, based upon what the truth is; what is real and what is not and why - Jesus Christ made it clear. Quite clear.
I agree with much of the criticism discussed early in the video, particularly the current interpretation of freedom, but I’m left with questions/criticisms of my own regarding this discussion. Despite the imperfections of liberal democracy, can you not acknowledge that if it weren’t for it, you might not be freely having this discussion then broadcasting over UA-cam? What style of government would you think would be better? Please tell me of a type of government that has endured history? You criticize free market capitalism, but I argue that the lack thereof in the form of crony capitalism is the obstacle to the distributist vision of Pope Leo and Chesterton. Political leaders in cahoots with industry leaders creating barriers in the form of regulations is a much bigger problem than free markets. Are you suggesting government redistribution? I think history shows us how that works out.
Much of the critique is spot on but I’m not sure that you offer much as a viable solution. I believe religious schools need to form students to live a virtuous life so that they exercise self mastery. In a land of self government, people need to learn how to govern themselves.
Was self governess christs message tho?
@@tookie36 was government Christ’s message? In a free society, what is stopping anyone from living Christ’s message? In the US, Catholic citizens can look to our faith to inform our political decisions. Catholics politicians can look to their faith to inform their policy decisions even though they often do not. What is the alternative, impose Catholic teaching on the government? When has this worked? In an already pluralistic society, how does one go about making the government Catholic?
God gave everyone a free will even though He knew we often would not choose Him. He does not impose Himself on us. In a free society, people need to be taught that true freedom is living a life in accord with God’s will. I do not see why this cannot be done in the US.
VERY interesting... however, because of internet interruption @ current location, I'll continue watching these 2 excellent gentlemen's discussion later.
Comment for traction
To show how things have changed: I was a nursing student in a large secular city hospital in New England from 1970-73. The OB-GYN department did tubal ligation (tying a woman's fallopian tubes to end her reproductive life), but they wouldn't do it for unmarried women or women with no children. If a couple was married, the husband and wife had to apply for this surgery to a hospital committee made up of doctors, nurses, and clergy and maybe others. When the woman was admitted to the hospital, the diagnosis was "multiparity",meaning multiple births. Once a young nursing instructor asked a doctor why, and he said he didn't want some irate husband coming after him with a gun.
This hospital did not do abortions.
I don't know whether men who wanted vasectomy had to do the same. Vasectomy was done in the doctor's office, not hospital. But most doctors were decent guys who would want the wife's consent also.
I'd love to see a conversation with a man like George Weigel, who would be the heir of the thought of JP2, Michael Novak, Frs Neuhaus and Sirico, etc who all make a strong Catholic case for a version of western liberalism as a great force for good.
The transcendentalists and the christian mystics are on the right track. When you find the Christ within then you understand the point of virtue, it begins to adjust naturally to the greater good.
Rulesetting and guilt tripping fails after adolescence, especially when leaders fail to do unto others what they would have done to them.
These are not incompatible with the Church but if Catholicism wants to succeed in the long run it needs to adapt to a learning people and not the other way around.
This was a thoughtful conversation providing critical insight on tue shortfalls of liberalism. However, towards the end of the discussion they justify estate coercion to accomplish wealth redistribution. Completely unexpected for these committed men of virtue to abandon the true, the good and the beautiful in the last minute.
Deneen should read. ad Fides Et Ratio JP II and Spe Salvi Benedict XVI who address theses ideologies of evil head on.
True that Liberalism inhabits today’s political left and right, but the example Deneen focuses on-ie, the wealth inequality supposedly disregarded by the right-is not a prima facie deprivation of the good in the way that the sexual libertinism embraced by the left is. Indeed, there is nothing inherently unjust about wealth or income disparity arrived at without artifice or theft, and today’s poor enjoy a standard of living that far surpasses that of yesterday’s kings. To find that type of wealth disparity intrinsically offensive is to embrace (if unwittingly) the Enlightenment philosophers’ view of human nature and society as essentially competitive and in conflict. It also seems to be grounded in a kind of jealousy that is not the proper orientation of man towards his neighbor. The modern economic systems of the West have produced unprecedented prosperity generally-and, yes, select super-wealthy individuals like Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, etc. who donate the vast majority of their largess to charity. If Liberalism has its flaws, I’m not sure that kind of distributed wealth is one of them…
It is possible today’s material conditions represent an authentic development of Christian spiritual development. It is also a relatively foreign concept to the gospel and Christian tradition, in which liberty is frequently undermined by a justified concept of sovereignty allowing itself prudential nuance in the face of matters of salvation.
Are you sure there is nothing inherently unjust about wealth or income gained without artifice or theft? Can we say the virtue of religion is giving God His due? And when Jesus says, 'You cannot serve God and mammon...' [Matthew 6:24] and, 'it is easier for a Camel (Lamsa says "rope" is a better translation from Aramaic) to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." [Matthew 19:24] Or, '...Woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." [Luke 6:24] The parable of Dives and Lazarus [Luke 16:19-26] doesn't indicate Dives came about his wealth by artifice or theft.
There is also the example of Christians who, for a time, had great wealth, but during their own lifetime, gave it all away. I'm particularly thinking of St. Anthony of Egypt, St. Nicholas of Myra, and St. Katherine Drexel of Philadelphia.
I haven't thoroughly researched this, I've either read or heard Bill Gates has promoted artificial contraception among impoverished people to stem overpopulation. If this is the case, he'd do better totally staying out of it. I also heard he was using money to promote abortion in similar circumstances. If this is the case, how is that not worse than what Ezekiel condemns the Sodomites for? [Ezekiel 16:49]
@@tomrestajrIt is far easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to go to heaven.
~ Jesus
Please read Tyranny Inc. by Sohrab Ahmari and then you’ll better understand the corporate structure under the modern liberal order. This is the broken economic order that’s ignored by the neocon right and left (ie uniparty) and has led to unprecedented wealth disparity.
Dear Lord please accept me and my children and Grandchildren all to be included in the rapture that you have told us about. Please don’t leave us behind Lord Jesus. Amen
The Holy Spirits role to deal with the inner tyrant ? Sanctification is a relational gift from God . Objective values written on the heart by the Holy Spirit . Establishing values from a new nature to serve a community from a new heart . Christianity from a new humility in submission to his will.
“This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
Hebrews 8:10 NIV
Its good to be a little tirant because every inividium has different needs and he only is the best to decide what he want from life and how to. But there are norms, law and democracy to prevent us from the lord of the flies outcome. Why mention Hobbes and aristotle and so on - read an talk about Immanuel Kant and one will get familiar to an idea of freedom/liberal in a quite pure form and the most minimal boundaries that should be set up...
Maybe its also a good idea to leave philosophy aside which is very theoretical and stays there; sometimes turns into a sort of ideologY and just talk about economic Modells : how can we build a fair economy sphere and make it more open and fairer every day.
I always learn so much from Barron's discussions like this one with Deneen. As a proud cafeteria Catholic, I always appreciate that every Catholic I know is also a cafeteria Catholic, picking and choosing particular teachings, sins, or rituals and Barron and Deneen are no different. They both agree that liberalism failed, but they do not agree on how to fix the liberal notion of freedom to choose from the Catholic cafeteria of tolerance for other's sins. I like the Catholic teachings about how to live a good and moral life, but do not like the rituals or going to church. The tolerance of Religious pluralism has only one certain outcome: the emergence of an common secular Religion that tolerates a certain amount of sin...
The rituals are the center of Catholicism
Around an hour in, the discussion of a need for political power to limit the concentration of economic power seems to me to completely miss the nature of earthly power, per se.
Economic power is bolstered by political power, not limited by it. Amazon was a staunch opponent of a the idea of internet sales tax in the US until they incurred tax liability in every state because of their distribution centers, at which point they flipped 180 degrees in an attempt to foist the tax liability that they had acquired gradually as they grew onto all of the startups that might emerge to compete with them.
Regulations protect monopolies by making market entry cost prohibitive. Minimum wage laws price small startups out of the labor market, but large national chains can usually afford the added costs, or the investment in automation to replace the workers is the cost is too high.
McDonald’s can afford to invest in self service kiosks and food prep robots, but the family diner down the street can’t.
Political power and economic power are both concentrations of earthly power, and they can’t be divided against each other because they are both tools of the same master.
Political power gives the illusion of restraining economic power, but in reality it only selects the economic winners and protects them from
Competition.
Very good conversation but it’s condescending to label people who aren’t intellectual as ordinary.
God doesn't need people's abilities, but rather their willingness to say "Yes" to Him. It's rough huh?
Push through that thinking. The Church needs both. They are both "Essential Worker's" for God. Saints are Prayer Partner 's. Chose one you perceive as Ordinary and one who is Intellectual. You will recognize a growth towards God. To be Small is a Fruit
If we look at the saints I think we get a better picture of what an intellectual is like. Such as St. Thérèse of Lisieux.
Intellectual as a category is a product of liberalism.
Bishop, I’d love to see you engage with non-Christians like Omar Suleiman and Sam Harris
Bro who wants to see those conversations? They'd be so boring
Okay, I got to the 14 minute mark and that's as far as I'm willing to go with this guy. It's like he has a fundamental misreading of Hobbes and Locke and he sees Hobbes as the only way to set up a society, a philosopher king to borrow from Plato. He uses terms like utility and people being allowed to have their little bits of freedom but he fails to mention who will decide who gets what freedom. Terms matter as well. Liberalism, in it's classical sense, meant having the freedom to act on your own self-interest provided you stayed within the confines of the social compact. That's Locke. That's the system our founders put in place. Government was needed to protect life, liberty, and property, not to make sure people stayed in line like this guy is suggesting.
The commies are great at stealing terms and making them their own, nice sounding words like liberalism and progressivism. I mean who doesn't like liberty and progress right? This guy makes the mistake of using those terms as defined by the other side to make his argument. His solution is no different than obama's, a top-down bureaucracy to manage people's day-to-day transactions.
There was no internal flaw, no ticking time-bomb inside the system our founders created, it was placed there by people antithetical to representative republicanism which is the Lokean model our founders established. This guy makes it sound like our founding was closer to the French Revolution than the American one. And Bishop Barron seems to have a rather sympathetic view of Hobbes as well. Maybe he's just being agreeable, he does have a tendency to not push back during these one-on-one exchanges, but I dunno. I may have to rethink my position on him. And in case you're wondering, I'm about as conservative a guy as you are going to find, and I'm homeless from a political standpoint as a result. Democrats don't want me, republicans don't want me, MAGA doesn't want me, and the libertarians, well even if they wanted me that would be a hard no on my part. But I don't like authoritarians and I get the sense this guy sees some form of authoritarian rule, be it a government or a theocracy, as the answer. Guys like him are the problem, no matter who they pretend to represent. I'm outta here on this one.
Bro he was critiquing Hobbes and saying that our system is set up that way that’s what he’s critiquing. I would listen more carefully
Since clergy is so outspoken about politics and sticking their noses in, we're past due Churches start paying taxes.
🎉
Is his book one an ordinary person of average intelligence could understand?
Its pretty sad at the end you portrayed the good man as the educated elite. You portray that as the person who gives the faith to the commoner.
Was Jesus or His Apostles the educated elites?
What you represent there is closer to Thomas Sowell's Vision of the Anointed than the Scriptural and Church witness.
Paul who was had to meet Jesu to be set straight.
The end of this discussion went all astray and I really feel you mat not understand Jesus is real and still actually meets people. Mother Mary, Holy Angels and Saints do as well. The supernatural is lost, not discussed or not believed in this conversation. The reality of it is the supernatural is what is centrally ignored creating much of the problems you think you are going to solve. The supernatural is the solution…. But do you believe the witnesses God has sent? How often has God sent people witnessing this topic for it to be viewed as crazy, demonic, or imaginary?
People meeting Christ or those He sends and believing as Holy Mother Mary did the Angel Gabriel or as St Paul did Our Lord is what is needed or those at Fatima.
Brilliant content but you NEED MORE LIGHT. A suggested critique of your production quality. Your aim for 'a definitive aesthetic look', with 'mood' in low lighting, against pure black background, with subjects also wearing black, is not optimum in carrying your message of 'shining light' on complex topics. You aim to help us 'see more clearly' the shadowy topics we are trying to grasp. Profound issues that need illumination
Your efforts for aesthetic sophistication is admirable but to aim 'higher' in its attempt to be 'artistic'. Open apertures or give some more light to your subjects and backlight them or something.
The genre you are in is not 'filmic' nor 'narrative' you are in 'expose' and 'interview' on UA-cam. We use all sizes of screens in day light or night light - not one big film screen in a movie house! Your 'image' is too dark and too flat, almost 2 dimensional. Low, warm, glow-like, orange lighting risks the clarity of your focus. I hope you can see this metaphorically too.
I suggest your aesthetic choices should better match your mission to 'illuminate ' subjects. It seems you want a 'simple image' without 'backgrounds of books and stuff' which is great - but the image needs more light and dimension. A directorial decision should aim to lift the theme of 'light' in your visual not like the bright light of TV News but well, I'm sure your 'lighting' / directors can figure it out if you agree with my critique or choose to consider it.
I just want you to 'be better' - forgive me. I highly respect and love your mission. I professionally understand how a deep artistic desire to 'be unique and outstanding ' in your presentation, can sometimes negate other aspects of the genre you work in and can diminish the impact you seek in your 'mission'. It's subtle but artistically relevant and therefore relevant to 'your message' too. God Bless you Bishop and all who work on this channel.
Matthew 7:3-5 (New International Version):3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
Oh, come on, Patrick, as if the media doesn't happily call out Baptists or others by name.
Liberalismus delenda est.
Interesting discussion with one exemption, these two aren't giving up their day jobs, when the facts change, they don't. Ironically if you read Joseph Henrich book, the weirdest people in the world, it may have been the Church itself who created the idea of the "individual" with it's desire to break up the family (very large sense) that lead to a document like your constitution
extreme liberalism yes, he is right, but what about shades of liberalism?
All liberalism
Perhaps a module on why conservatism has failed.
Say *NO* to theocracy.
Why not redirect our faith to something new instead of outdated and mostly unrelatable myths
Go be the change you want to see
Barron a child of V2
Thank God! So was St. John Paul II. So was Benedict VI. So was Cardinal George.
V2 has brought millions of souls to the Lord. It's sad some have left the Church over V2.
I did not see John Kennedy as a good Catholic. Womanizer.
Codependent much?
Wow - Great points of view from Patrick, hopefully BB took his views into consideration when he preaches on his elitist right wing hat!!!