Ranking Every 2021 Costume Drama on Historical Accuracy || "Ancient" - 18th Century
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- Опубліковано 22 тра 2024
- Links, resources, and more on our fabulous guests:
Claire Yixuan Zhang @clairezhangyx
YT: / @clairezhangyx
Jimmy Johnson (@littlewelshviking)
YT: / thewelshviking
Cheon-Shik Yang (@Yang_Cheon_Shik)
YT: / cheonshikyang%ec%b2%9c...
Gigi Coulson (@labelladonnahistory/@reenactorsofcolor)
labelladonna.net
Vittoria Pipino
Álvaro Corral (he/him), @alvaroccid
IG: / alvaroccid
Stalwart research assistants ✨
Betsy Schugar
Heathcliff McLean
Editing by @DannyBanner
@danbanstudio
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YT / danibanner
This channel is made possible through the generous support of Patreon members. To become a patron, visit / bernadettebanner (although videos will remain free for you here regardless).
Beyond UA-cam:
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__
NOTES
[1] Giovanni di Paolo, Giudizio Universale, Dettaglio Predella Madonna Col Bambino E Santi, 1460-5, Siena, Pinacoteca Nazionale, bit.ly/322Sy1d.
[2] Giovanni di Paolo, Paradise, 1445, Tempera and Gold on canvas, Transferred from Wood, New York, The Metropolitan Museum of Art, bit.ly/3DZyGZN.
[3] Probably by Fra Angelico, The Dominican Blessed, 1423-4, Egg Tempera on Wood, London, The National Gallery, bit.ly/3GOlgS9.
[4] Giovanni di Paolo, Giudizio Universale, Dettaglio Predella Madonna Col Bambino E Santi, in Judith C Brown, Immodest Acts: The Life of a Lesbian Nun in Renaissance Italy, (New York U.A.: Oxford University Press, 1986), bit.ly/3oVOgRU.
0:00 - Introduction
1:39 - Explanation of Tiers
3:46 - Word of Honor
4:46 - The Beforeigners (Season 2)
6:18 - Domina
7:55 - Britannia
9:22 - The Green Knight
11:17 - River Where the Moon Rises
12:55 - The Sword and the Brocade
13:53 - The Last Duel
15:24 - The King's Affection
17:28 - Leonardo
18:55 - Anne Boleyn
20:08 - The Jungle Cruise
21:40 - Song of Youth
22:45 - Discovery of Witches (Season 2)
24:56 - Kingdom: Ashin of the North
26:37 - Benedetta
28:31 - Coven of Sisters
30:49 - Fear Street 1666
31:56 - The Cook of Castamar
33:54 - The Great (Season 2)
34:46 - Conclusion
As an archaeologist I kept yelling at all the white statues in Domina. LISTEN: Ancient Greek and Roman sculptures (free-standing, on a building, whatever) were PAINTED. BRIGHT COLORS.
Yes!
But but but they look so curseeedd
Strangely I only remember the Marcello statue and could swear it was painted
@@randompersonontheinternet6762 I,, I have a theory that maybe the projections made on what these Roman statues would've looked like with color are actually not that well done. Like, growing up catholic and being surrounded by statues of saints, I do know that they can look gorgeous when painted
Whaaaaaat?!? I legit didn’t know this!
If you don’t like saying “historical accuracy” you could try saying “historical faithfulness” to indicate how faithful they are to historical fashion and sources available :)
I love this idea!!
alternatively "historical authenticity" could work similarly
Historical adjacency, perhaps?
Ooo I like that!
Historical plausibility?
I love how bernadette normalises "this is something I don't know enough about, so let's ask an expert" and gives us all of these wonderfully knowledgeable people. This is a true Christmas gift!
It's a good move and very commendable. 😎👍
But she's not the only one to ask another expert for an opinion. 😉
You have gotten issues
"I tried to leave my snark at home" *proceeds to absolutely roast the show*
Jimmy gives me life tbh
Tried and failed!
He’s vile
Nuclear level sass
@@TheWelshViking snarcasm is awesome imo.
I would love to see Bernadette rank the "accuracy" of American girl historical dolls
And then I would love for her to construct period accurate costumes for them.
Especially the original vs redone ones such as Samantha
That would be so fun!!
I love that idea! I still have my Kirsten Larsen doll from when I was little and she has the calico dresses of 1850's farm life, but also some of her clothing from Sweden with the trims and embroidery. I love that her Christmas story was focused on St. Lucia's Day which is a Swedish tradition that she wanted to hold on to in America.
YES
Moral of the story: If you want to look good in period clothes, be a background character or a child.
I have a theory that most of these extras are actual reenactors who brought their own kits. If the costumers put so little effort into the main cast, they definitely wouldn't be bothered with outfitting the extras properly
Actually it’s very common in filmmaking to rent costumes for background characters, but custom design main characters clothing, which means you have different designers and makers doing those costumes! And if you happen to rent from a reputable costumiers and say you want 30 15th century peasant costumes then that is what you’ll get. But the main characters will often have a designer or a producer wanting things to look sexier or more relatable, or hiring a wardrobe department more used to modern dress and voila-anachronisms galore!
@@florriefightingale5161 There have been some productions where the background actors are historical reenactors, bring their own (vetted) costumes, and therefore are more accurate than the principals
Hello! i work as an on set costumer. the reason background artists are in more historically accurate clothing is the crowd team usually sources their costumes from a hire house. Whereas the cast will usually have things made for them. This is partially because they may have some symbolism or colour palette they want to express in the characters, but a more practical reason is because main cast are in their costumes a lot more often so they will need repeats, especially if any stunts or blood or dirt is involved. The number of repeats is determined by how many takes they intend to do, so if a project is low budget, there will often only be one or two repeats because they cant afford more. So if you see badly done blood, that could be why!
“The Great” had absolutely beautiful costuming for being satire, and gave me a whole new respect for Elle Fanning.
The costume designer in an interview for A Discovery Of Witches made a point of saying how difficult and prohibitively expensive it would have been to get period accurate lace. Glad you left them off the hook for that ^_^
I wonder if the bodice pattern was altered to accommodate the actress Teresa Palmer as I think she was pregnant during filming. I'm not 100% sure about that though.
@@psychedelicpegasus7587 not pregnant but breastfeeding
Could period lace be reproduced by feeding reconstructed period patterns into modern mass production equipment? Considering the time consuming way lace was historically made by manually moving around spools of thread.
I haven’t watched the show but I have read the books and they seem to be better than the show’s depiction, but I also know absolutely nothing about historical fashion.
As I’ve gotten more into costuming, I’ve noticed a “trend” of the background actors looking way more accurate than the main characters, who always have more modern touches. Like Gigi pointed out, the changes are sometimes used as symbolism / to make statements, but I also think it’s the design team’s way of trying to make those characters more appealing and relatable to us.
Also, the Stars are often made to look Sexy or Dashing in modern ways. Background people get simple, often fairly accurate outfits
I just read a comment that said that shows often cast re-enactors for their extra's and those people bring their own costumes and accessories. I thought that was so clever! Get people involved who already know about what they should be wearing and save cost on your costume department budget. And I bet the re-enactors have a fun with a cool opportunity to showoff their work.
On top of what others in this thread have said... I suspect in at least a few cases the costume department *wanted* period-accurate outfits for the stars too, but were restricted by their leadership's vision. So they dressed the background characters correctly out of protest, and/or for their own portfolios.
In addition to the use of reenactors, I understand costumers are often hiring from costume warehouses for the extras, whereas main character costume is more often designed & created from scratch... So the background actors are more likely to end up wearing something from e.g. a reasonably accurate theatre production (or actual repurposed vintage items) whereas the leads are much more likely to get hit by the "must be modern-sexy" or "design choice" issues...
Many years ago, they did a movie called Robin of Locksley, a modern adaptation of Robin Hood. It was filmed in Vancouver, BC and many of the extras in the "ren faire" scene were SCA members from the Barony of Lions Gate, including then-Baron Gerhard Kendal of Westmoreland.
Kudos to you Bernadette for coordinating this major review of period dramas and gathering a great team of historians. You rock!
Agreed! I particularly like that she got several other costumers with expertise in other cultures and time periods to review the productions set in Asia or in medieval Europe.
I wish you’d acknowledged more of the Russian influence in “the Great” or brought someone in who was qualified to talk about it.
For instance, the Kokoshnik she wears to her coronation and the role of large braids. The BEAUTIFUL scene at the beginning of one of the episodes where servants are dancing through a hallway in AMAZINGLY AUTHENTIC LAPTI / bast shoes.
The way trends are “delayed” in coming to Russia so when Catherine’s mother comes to visit as a wealthy Austrian, you see her in big panniers and fashionable European, particularly French, dress. followed by the next scenes/episodes where you do see panniers being worn by the women of
the court to show that they’ve now been exposed to them.
Also maternity fashion. Most of the season is centred around Catherine being pregnant. You didn’t even talk about any of the maternity dress employed.
And general things like hand-worked eyelets, visible piecing, the shoes, linen shirts, tucks in the back of the bodices (especially Marial who would have the newest clothing as someone who had JUST gotten her royal status back and thus would have most recently acquired her clothing).
I also dissapointed that nobody knowing Russian fashion was invited here :/ Maybe that embroodery in 34:11 was supposed to be inspired by some folk embroidery? I do not have enough knowledge about folk costumes, so I would gladly listen to someone who knows the topic. From what I read from the above comment - there should be a separate video about costumes in this show only.
@@paulinaw1246 yeah!! Mind you I just know this stuff because I’m Russian-by no means an expert. So this is just obvious stuff. In terms of embroidery, we have traditional scarves and shawls and embroidered tunics that were featured with beautiful floral embroidery that is themed by region and status. I have an embroidered shawl that I received when I became “of age”. And the Lapti scene was also super prominent and annoying that it was missed entirely by this video because it was genuinely one of my favourite “fashion” scenes in the whole show
@@twilightrocks1111 Thank you for the comment. Do you know any channels or blogs about Russian folk and fashion (in Russian or English)? I would love to learn more. I was searching for channels that would cover Russian folk costumes and sewing them but it is hard to find.
Concerning maternity fashion, in her review of The Great season 2 costumes Mina Le mentioned that we actually don’t know much about historical maternity fashion because women used to modify their dresses during their pregnancy and then modify them back after giving birth, so we’re just left with normal dresses, without being able to look at how they were modified. She also mentions the Russian influence in her video, especially concerning Catherine’s coronation dress, you should check her out!
@@chiaratarulli1595 thank you for flagging!! I’ll check her out
“I tried to leave my snark at home, a little bit”.
I don’t think Jimmy is ever capable of separating himself from his snark, and it’s one’s of the reasons we love him so much. Keep your snark, Jimmy. It adds so much salty flavour goodness!
Also, Claire Zhang made what is my absolute favourite gown from the bustle era. The colours, the pleating! Oh my god the pleating was perfect. It’s actually one of my dream dresses to recreate, just because what she did was so gorgeous. Highly recommend her channel.
Do we?
@@greywater3186 You're under every comment about Jimmy trying to put him down. It's honestly pathetic. You and your negativity are clearly not a good fit for this channel, so just move on.
@@ava_marie_v I’m the negative one? What he said was disgusting. I don’t think referring to anyone as a “douche” is fitting for this channel, or anywhere in society, but apparently you in your endless wisdom think otherwise.
That says everything about who you are.
Good day to you.
@@greywater3186 You mean the part where he's describing a t-shirt neckline???? That's what has made you write 7 comments like "he's vile" under any comment you see about him?????
@@ava_marie_v Douching is an activity to introduce water or liquids into the body for medical or personal reasons. It is closely associated with the cleansing of women’s vaginas. (Whether or not this is healthy is not the discussion, when one thinks of an individual douching, invariably that person is a woman using a douche in her vagina.) As such, when the term “douche” is used in a derogatory manner, the individual is attacking women.
The english language is vast, there is no need to say such a thing on a channel that is mainly viewed by women. There are dozens of words one could choose to use in place of douche. If one can’t think of one immediately then that is what a thesaurus is for. The individual just has to be thoughtful enough to consider language, and how they are using it.
When women and girls hear terms like douche in a negative connotation, it can reinforce the insults all women have heard at least once in our lives. The majority of women at some point have been told they are dirty, that they must douche to be clean (even if this was only through the numerous television commercials on the subject). So when an individual uses a term like douche in a manner as Jimmy did (in a negative sense) he reinforces that douche is a bad thing, which to a young girl with no experience or education may come across as douching is bad because it’s gross / dirty / disgusting.
Words matter. I personally think douche is just as damaging to women as cunt is as it attacks who we are as women.
When a man calls a man a douche, a d-bag, etc,, what is he really saying? He’s saying that individual is no better than the instrument used to clean vaginas.
So when a man comes on a channel hosted by a woman, whose content is viewed by a majority of women, and uses such a term I have to question why. He didn’t even seem to know that there might be an issue (take away everything I said and it was still highly unprofessional. One can be condescendingly funny and professional at the same time.) The word is just part of his normal vocabulary.
If any of the other experts had used language not fit for polite society it would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Jimmy’s comment did that for me, I’m sorry it didn’t for you. I really am. I am sorry you are accustomed to having such language used around you so frequently that you attack a stranger for calling it out.
I do think it’s vile to use such language so casually, that no one seemed to notice, and that Bernadette thought it was a perfectly fine comment to share with everyone. I honestly was shocked as she seems very proper; a woman who chooses her words with care.
We as women have to do better for the women who will come after us. Yes we deserve equal rights and equal pay. But doing better also means that derogatory language isn’t accepted as slang. We have so much work to do and owe it to both the women who came before us (who we all clearly adore) and those yet to come.
So yes, I will shout from the rooftops if I need to. I do find that word vile. I’m appalled other women don’t. I’m appalled other women hear it so frequently that the word washes over them and they don’t give it a thought. I’m appalled that you aren’t, and seem to be attacking me for being so.
From Jimmy's description of the costumes in Domina, it seems like they've made the classic mistake of applying the current mens' fashion standards of "bare legs and arms are informal or juvenile" to garments that really don't allow for that look. It'd be like setting a show in 1790s Scotland and having ankle-length kilts, because modern audiences can't take a man seriously if you can see his knees.
Please, leines, please, yellow mini dresses, please
A man's knees! *gasp* How scandalous! 🤣
@@marynraven it do be like that tho, which is kinda hilarious 😂
In 10:00, the reason many of the background characters are in decent costume may be because they often get reenactors to play extras (many people in my re-enactment group have been extras in films and tv) and they bring their own kit sometimes.
that's such a clever/fun way to save cost!
true, in a recent medieval/fantasy film that my friend was in a lot of the extras were actually larpers in their own costumes
That's so interesting! I always assumed there was just a giant box of extra costumes that gets passed around, like how there's a bunch of props that get reused.
Due to the curse of getting into historical dress UA-camrs (/lh), I find myself noticing this sort of thing a lot with background characters having certain details that the main characters are missing!
Like when everyone should be wearing hats and you'll only see it on the background characters. I assumed it was because of a stylistic choice, like historically accurate dress might not be as appealing to modern audiences.
@@thornprick2645 I think that is often the case as well, particularly for characters with a very minor role but still a speaking part.
So many awesome folks on this video I can go follow now! It's great to hear their insight on these costumes :] Thanks for putting together this collab!
Hi Kaz! I wish you would've participated in this video :(
Right?! I wanted to learn more abt Chinese and Korean fashion history and didn’t know it until this video!
Omg hi! You're awesome
Luv u kaz
ayee hi kaz
I work in the costume department in film and so much of it comes down to what producers want, what they think will look interesting over historical accuracy. Sometimes its budget or a director really has this strong vision of how they want things to look. Having worked on a few historical shows that designers don't have as much creative freedom as people think they do. So many voices and opinions get pushed. I really love watching this though!
Poor costume designers :(
@@standnamemercuria7079 I know it can be frustrating too if a director/ exc producer isn’t interested in being accurate but only cares how hot the actors will look.
@@dbj1852 that's an injustice honestly
@@standnamemercuria7079 it really is filming has got a lot of peoples opinions involved. Although it's great when you do get a project where you have more creative freedom.
@@dbj1852 i hope you can have that :)
I loved reviews of the non-western shows and the opinions from people I have not seen before. It makes me want to seek them out and will send me down new rabbit holes. Thank you Bernadette!
Me too! I really enjoyed "The king's affection" that they reviewed here and was happy to see it on the list!
I wanted more shows from non English speaking world and East-Easia. I wonder what was the criteria she picked the shows with
Me too!! I can't wait to watch some of those movies/shows that I normally wouldn't know about!
I've heard you mention "period appropriate lace" a few times, in this video and some previous ones. Could you do a video showing us examples of the lace from different periods and explaining them? Great job on this channel!
This would be amazing.
Yes please!
This is a great idea! When mentioned, it seems that OBVIOUSLY there are different styles of lace in different time periods... I seem to be totally lace-ignorant!
@@annbrookens945 I know a little myself, but what I can nail down is more regional than temporal; i.e. X is Irish, Y is Belgian, Z is French. Many styles of lace are still named after particular cities or areas. I imagine that the advent of machine-made lace changed how people thought about it considerably.
So I remember in a historical fantasy novel (Mercedes Lackey's Black Swan) that there was a minor plotline about a barmaid saving her money to buy lace made by local grannies with the intent to take them to the capitol of the empire (Vienna) to sell them to the ladies of the court. It was an interesting assertion that this character could save her money by buying lace, as she knew its worth in large cities but it would be overlooked by any thieves. Not sure how historically accurate it was, but it has a ring of truth and sense that made me stop and think.
This is really making me see how little historical drama is set on the African continent.
or just not talked about. amina was released this year but it's not on the list
Very true. I think it may be because there is a lack of information from historical times due to the lack of written language on that continent during these historical periods. It’s a shame because I’d love to see more depictions of that place and people from history!
@@gwenjackson8583 There has been writing in the Ge'ez language for over 2000 years in Ethiopia/Eritrea. I want a movie about Walatta Petros, a woman who left her husband to lead religious movements against the emperor in the 17th century.
There are also plenty of movies that are set in ancient Egypt, but they treat it like a fantasy setting (and hire white actors) instead of aiming for any accuracy, despite a huge amount of written history.
I was excited to hear Cheon-Shik Yang discussing the accuracy of Korean "historical" costuming! This video was extremely interesting to me and I very much look forward to the next episode!
I feel like there should be a list given to film makers titled "Things that are NOT in Fact Historical". It would include things like stays without a shift underneath, metal eyelets before the Victorian era, half up half down hair styles, smoky eye makeup, etc.
Give production teams forgiveness if they use eyelets which take 5 seconds to secure over hand stitched ones.
@@lizzieophelia I completely respect that shortcuts need to be taken for the sake of time/budget, I just think costume designers should understand the rules if they are going to break them.
@@kirstenpaff8946 I think some costume designers and builders get sold short a lot too. Many are overruled by other members of the production such as: directors, producers, and the actors themselves.
What Beth said x10. I saw this happen first-hand on The Patriot (1999). The costume designer knew what she was doing for the menswear, but the director overrode her when it came to the uniforms and even the cut of the riding breeches, and it became a hot mess.
@@NancyFrye I have heard Jason Isaacs talk about that film and how they had a really knowledgeable historian "consulting" on set. When (British) Isaacs was asking him if things depicted in the f really happened the answer was almost always no. The historian was *very* aware that he was on set just so they could say there *was* a historian on set, not so he could actually be consulted.
I love how international this years list was. Bravo getting all of these folks to bring their knowlege.
That Hanbok tailor, Yang Cheon Shik, was so handsome in that traditional garb! I know nothing about asian cultural clothing, but his getup caught me off guard with how on point and cool it looked! Also, he seemed very knowledgeable and a good lecturer. Definitely gonna google him later!
I was surprised about the ranking of discovery of witches because the author of the books is a historian and she explicitly said that she wanted the past to be as realistic and accurate as possible in the series. 😱
I felt like the reviewer was a little harsh. she listed all the things the show did right, then said they added beading and accents that were wrong and then tanked the score. with what she said I expectes at least "they tried"
@@lymeriatyrell8851 yeah I noticed that too, to me the things that were said had me expecting it'd be put in "they tried". I mean especially if you look at some of the ones that did end up in They Tried... like the jungle one that had a lot more issues with modern clothing in it.
I was very surprised by the rating as well. Another thing of note, that wasn’t mentioned at all, is the attempt to incorporate headwear! Most shows avoid it completely as it typically casts unwanted shadows.
I feel like you can go either way with Arthur; a total romantic pseudo-medieval fantasy, OR take a serious stab at historical 5th century Arthur. But you can't really have both.
I honestly kind of liked the costumes in 2008 Merlin. Like historically they make no sense and Merlin dresses like most of my gay friends did back when I started uni in 2006, but I still like them.
Or you could also go for some sort of 12th century interpretation, circa when Gawain was actually written. I feel like everyone knows/prefers that Anglo-Norman version of Arthur anyway lol
I think that Arthurian legend is something you can go complete batshit with and just throw things together. I have zero problems with that. Just make it oldtimey and voilà.
Because they are legends that were retold over centuries and continously added to over time. Like how one source of Mulan includes footbinding which was fashionable at the time it was written but not when Mulan is actually set. Similar things happend to fairytales and arthurian legend. Meaning the legend itself is an amalgamation of time periods. So if you want you could ask primary school kids how they'd imagine it and follow that. As long as it fits with the vibe you're going for and lean into whatever you choose I feel like it could work really well, you could also add some modern values and treat it as arthurian legend as told in the 21 century. Just don't say this is year xyz and then not live up to it. It's not like arthurian legend is in any way historically acurate itself (unless we've lost a lot of magic over the last millenia). So my opinion: the legend itself requires no specific time period. Movie makers just need to have a rounded product at the end and not promise historical accuracy if they don't deliver. Like getting mad at Merlin for historical inaccuracies would just be funny because that wasn't a goal at all.
@@freakyfridayfun That's a totally fair point. I have no issue with Arthurian retellings that incorporate a mishmash of times and cultures (for example, I loved "The Kid Who Would Be King" that came out a few years ago). However, I would love to see some moviemakers retell Arthurian legend in a way that actually incorporates historical faithfulness. Although Gawain and the Green Knight is clearly a fantasy, the original text also relies on certain historical realities; for example, when Gawain is traveling to the Green Chapel, he journeys through a wood called the Wirral. Unless you understand the historical reality of this wood as the king's land and a haven for outlaws, you cannot really understand the danger to both Gawain's person and his identity as a knight of King Arthur (this was actually one thing I think the Green Knight movie did kind of well--having Gawain run into outlaws while he is traveling through the Wirral). If you chose to set the story in just a vaguely old-timey period, though, then you lose that very period-specific danger that comes with him traveling through that specific place. Obviously, being so specific to the period isn't necessary to retell Arthurian legends at all; however, I would love to see some people try to incorporate more history into their retellings because how medieval people thought and lived is absolutely fascinating and not nearly well-represented enough.
@@haleywells7369 Also a very convincing argument. I guess I'm just holding out for more originality or at least more creative fanfiction when it comes to stories set in medieval times and arthurian legend respectevly.
At least they used a different story this time.
I LOVE that you brought in a panel to speak to other time periods/cultures outside your wheel house. I'm personally getting more engrossed in Chinese and Korean historical dramas so it was great to hear those perspectives! Maybe future collab with Xiran Jay Zhao? 👀
I love that idea!
please i love their content so much
UP!
After watching Bernadette’s review of The Nevers I was recommended a video from someone who actually had experience in costuming for historical dramas like these. The one thing that I remember above all else from what they said was that period dramas often rent packages of clothes from whatever era the show is set in, to be used on the extras.
So, in regards to all the commentary saying ‘the extras look surprisingly accurate’, probably comes from the companies that sell them, rather than the costuming department.
Omg, this is the first time I've heard a historian speak to the accuracy of kdrama costumes--something I've always wondered about! Thanks for including your guests, Bernadette!
Hahaha “time is not linear in the general scheme of the internet” literally choked on my tea laughing.
Thank you, Bernadette, for the great amount of work that went into this. Love these videos! They are informative in a very practical way :)
I’ll see you to--….. in the next one ;)
I love that she called in all these other people to judge she does really great work
In other words it’s “timey, wimey, wobbly, wobbly”………*gasp* Dr, is that you???
I think a discovery of witches could actually place on the Design Choice tm tier because the characters you show are modern people that time travel back to the elizabethan period. So it woudl be fair that her hair is modern. You cant train your hair in a few weeks after you've been using modern shampoo your whole life..
However the sparky trim is still ghastly
I feel like Design Choice is a right category for tv shows with tv shows which do not include any actual historical figures or historical event and do not precisely specify year in which they take place.
This is not the case with Discovery Of Witches. We have years 1590-1591 and numerous historical figures as secondary characters. Although I strongly disagree with shoving DoW into "grimace" category. It really deserves "they tried". I don't know what happened here, either Bernadette is biased and dislikes this show for other reasons, or she did not even watched season2 at all, but only googled promo shots, or maybe watched some trailers on youtube.
@@mayfair_forest_witch Beforeigners too is time travel shinanigans. Most of it takes place in modern day.
@@mayfair_forest_witch I think also that it would deserve a 'they tried' for all the existing garments they used. They made mistakes, but they did most def try
I work in movies and I can tell you that if someone points out a blatant anachronisms in a little detail (like rubber soles in medieval Korea) The answer you get is that "if someone notices that, that means you've lost him a while ago and you' re not getting his attention back."
Interesting because I think the rubber sole thing would have stood out more than most other details even to a lay person.
Even watching shows I really enjoy I'll find myself noticing continuity errors, especially on a rewatch.
I especially think this is just one of those things that happens when you watch something that attempts to portray your expertise. Like how my sister (a doctor) can't help but lose some immersion when medical details don't add up in a show. For viewers outside the medical field, you can get away with some smudging of accuracy, but even for lay people certain inaccuracies might stand out.
Same goes for noticing clearly modern soles centuries before they would have ever looked like that, in my opinion.
Oh wow so they dont know their audiences at all
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 They know 95% of the audience won't care/notice
@@19Rena96 But we do, look how many of us here and we’re all craving the atention to detail and the accuracy. Most of us who are dedicated fans won’t watch a show or film just once, we go back and back. With streaming services or it used to be video or cassete rentals, those are the fans that bring in money in the long run.
Remember how we used to rewatch all the previous seasons of game of thrones before a new season will start? On every new rewatch we notuce new details. Like clues from book one what’s going to happen in book six. Costuming is one of those details
@@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195 yeah.. you're the minority i'm talkinf about 😅
8:48 Fun fact the runes on this woman's head more closely resemble Tolkien's dwarvish runes, but even that is a stretch, going off of the runes seen in the Hobbit it reads EA W O H, which to my knowledge means nothing unless that's a thing in the show it's from
In defence of A Discovery of Witches, I think points should be given for the scene of Diana getting dressed, with a shift closest to the body and actual stays. Not to mention a clear shot of an actual pocket tied around the waist. Really wanted you to mention those, but not a mention
I think Discovery of Witches deserves "they tried", category "grimace" is really unfair. I don't know what happened here, either Bernadette is biased and dislikes this show for other reasons, or she did not even watched season2 at all, but only googled promo shots, or maybe watched some trailers on youtube. Costubers community always laughs at other people research being 5 minute google search and yet apparently it is exactly what happened here.
@@mayfair_forest_witch totally agree. Considering it was written by a historian, with a specialty in the era, who was a consultant on the show, it definately should not be in the grimace category. Bernadette really zoomed in on the tiny details without looking at the silhouettes and the overall effect of it all.
I agree. I think SnappyDragon's review on A Discovery of Witches' costumes is a lot fairer. You should check out her review! It's much more detailed too, and she puts in the design choices context as well because she has also read the book.
I feel like Bernadette just roughshod through it, probably biased as well.
@@skolas-aditya I love that review
@@skolas-aditya love that review. Plus I really learned a lot just watching her video, because she really take her time to talk about the different parts of fashion (headwear, silhouette, fabric etc).
The way you were describing Discovery Witches I thought it was going to be much higher lol, considering they reflected actual extant wear.
Surprised she didn't touch on Queen Elizabeth. They knocked her portrayal out of the park and it's one of the best scenes in the show (her really lovely chat about immortality with Matthew on par with Van Gogh in Doctor Who) they even gave her wooden teeth!!
As someone living in Korea I’m so excited you got an actual hanbok tailor to talk about the Korean shows!
I’m always amused at the fact that background characters often have more realistic/historically accurate costumes in movies and shows where it’s clear research was done. But the impulse to make main characters conform to modern beauty standards or fantasy norms is just too strong for a lot of productions.
Discovery of witches is a really intersting case I think. The books were written by a historian and Diana, the main character, also is one so I feel like the books do this better and there are obviously some awful costume moments there. On the other hand the books especially describe Dianas issues with clothing and missing things like sweatpants, going as far as having something sweatpantsy tailored and needing help from others to understand life and dress in that timeperiod because eventhough she studied the period she obviously never lived it before. So her hair beeing too modern feels pretty authentic, similarily to Outlander were the timetravelers bring rain jacket material and zippers at some point. I feel like it had so much potential playing with those different perceptions of dress and life in general and slowly learning (through costume for example) which was really interesting in the books and I think they did that to some degree. But alas it's not a super successful series and budget is a thing, similarily some things are just easier to do in books.
Honestly it feels like they had really high aspirations, working of existing garments and then realised that they still had tons of costumes to do and couldn't keep it up for everything. But I feel that working of multiple actual sources deserves some kudos.
I feel like Bernadette dislikes DoW for some other reasons and tried really hard to shove Discovery Of Witches into a lowest category. Either that or she never watched season 2 and only googled some promo shots. I don't think this show's costumes deserve such low ranking.
@@mayfair_forest_witch Yeah I thought it was weird she basically just looked at shots from the promos. I don't expect her to watch everything, but at least check out a few more productions stills from the show like the wedding dress or Queen Elizabeth. Having an Elizabethan historian as the author and the fact she was on set constantly I think they were closer to accurate than she gave credit for.
My predominant impression from the DoW was that Diana's gowns were always not laced properly, she seemed to be drowning in them, but no one seems to bring this up anywhere, so it's probably just me...
@@AW-uv3cb unfortunately I think there's a lot of missing context from the story as to why things look a certain way. For instance the dresses Diana was wearing in the shots that were being looked at were not her dresses so they would fit strangely and at least 1 of the dresses was from 10ish years earlier. The lace thing irked me as well since I remember there being a piece from SkyTV on the dresses and specifically the lace pieces as being pulled directly from existing pieces from the period.
@@contented-winter That's a good point about her wearing hand-me-downs. I can get behind this reasoning 🙂
I loooove the costume design in The Green Knight! It would actually make no sense for that movie to have period appropriate clothing.
Yeah that review was so weird tbh. Clearly the outfits are design choices
Love the enrollment of guest experts! Would love to see Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries reviewed, as costumes are one of the strongest parts of the show.
For the people in the back (and the front, and everywhere): cloth and reed armour was a common thing and it was very effective against arrows. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
I love that you brought in other historians that had knowledge in areas you haven’t studied so that their expertise could be included! Nice choice!
LOVE that you have east Asian shows on this, I like watching K and C drama and am always sad that I can't learn more about the costuming as it's always really beautiful, but I feel super ignorant about it. Now I know about the appropriate costubers to watch to learn more!
Me too! I love the costumes in those but always wonder "is this accurate??" So yes definitely going to check those people out!
Me too! I’m a big fan and watch more k & c drama more than American shows. I also love period dramas more than the modern ones
Me too!! Watch a lot of k and c drama. I do some research for Chinese makeup and i was shocked. Some of the Dramas a only fantasy and thats fine. Now i want to learn more :)
“A discovery of witches” is a really good book series and was actually written by a historian
Was a bit gutted that it got such a bad placing :(
Totally! Can we please not forget that Deb Harkess is an ELIZABETHIAN historian who not only wrote the books, served as producer of the show but was onset for the production in the UK. That alone should have merited a “they tried” or better. Whelp.
@@HInc7647 Same
What?? Really??? I only got halfway through the first book and was really put off by the weird overprotective vampire. Is there more historical detail in the other books?
@@hannahcraig6763 waaaaay more
thanks so much for inviting experts on Korean, Chinese, Italian and Spanish fashion, it was very interesting!
Love the choice of guests for this video and the wide breadth of knowledge. Absolutely fascinating video 10/10 for Bernadette and the incredible guests
Love the critical eye on these. Although I must admit based on what was rated as "they tired" I definitely feel like Discovery Of Witches should be in that category as well. But that's just my opinion.
OMG WORD OF HONOR IS ON YOUR LIST!!!! I have peaked in my fangirl happiness. I am currently writing my thesis about this show and Guardian (and other Chinese BL novel-adaptation TV dramas).
BTW, something that I learned in my thesis research is that Chinese historical dramas that are not about a historical figure are encouraged by censorship to have a generic time period, which makes them purposefully hard to place on a timeline. Censors like that because it prevents the shows from negatively commenting on historical or current government practices by basically making the drama automatically fiction/fantasy. That's why Word of Honor (and most wuxia and xinxia dramas) doesn't have a specific historical date to pin it down. It even purposefully uses literary and geographical references in different and contradictory time periods to make it impossible to place. And yet in 2017, they said they wanted fewer of these generic ancient times shows because there were so many (I swear, they just can't make up their minds about what they want from one year to the next).
Fun fact: That's also why Guardian is a science-fiction - because the Censors wouldn't allow a fantasy show like that with ghost kings and gods (like the book its based on) to take place in the present era like it does in the book. It had to be science-fiction and it had to be set in a generic time period, which is why it takes place in the 31st century instead of the 21st century.
I kinda expected at least some appreciation for The Great in terms of the traditional Russian elements in clothing being shown, like Kokoshnik and peasant dress. It was quite pleasant to see - most Western productions ignore such things or just glue a bit of fur on clothing to make it look more "Russian". Also, the design choices made were appropriate for the farcical/comical mood of the show imo.
Yay! So looking forward to this. I’m always impressed when shows really show they did some homework to either be as accurate as they could or to take it and do some sort of fantastical take on reality.
Love that you included international shows and such a variety of guests and time periods! It’s nice to seeing content that’s not just focused on Europe or America!
I really appreciate you taking the time to find experts in the other periods and countries that you are not as familiar with. Listening to experts speak on their craft is so fascinating.
I love the global approach, not limiting to period dramas set in Europe and England. Love the guest speakers!
I loved the 2nd season of Discovery of Witches. While I did not like all the lace, I did love Diana's "wedding dress." Especially the shiny collar ruffle she wore behind her head. It had lots of beading. It may not have been "Accurate" but I think it looked gorgeous!!!
It certainly didn't deserve the worst rating for sure
I would watch a fully funded tv show of Bernadette educating the masses on historical fashion, taking historical tv shows & movies as a starting points because these videos are so educational!!! Can't believe I get to watch this for free
I would love to see Ghosts get included in this list one year! There's a lot of historical dress, especially in episodes with flashbacks!
The Green Knight was intended as a stylised fantasy from the start and I loved the costuming choices to create striking imagery. Gawain's name is pronounced multiple different ways throughout the film on purpose because there are different spellings and variants of the name and the film makers wanted to reference this.
Thank you!! I found Jimmy’s review to be overly harsh and kinda tone deaf to what the movie was attempting to portray. It was meant to be surrealist and part of that was going fucking nuts with the costuming, so trying to criticize it in any real historical context just sort of feels like he’s taking the whole thing too seriously. Call me a bitter holier than thou nerd, and it’s nothing against Jimmy himself, but it felt like the point of the movie was lost on him
all i see is "part 1". which means "part 2". this is so great.
and I'm so glad to see what made it to part 1
Interestingly, some of the dresses worn by the protagonist in the A Discovery of Witches second story are supposed to be old and out of style, because they are borrowed from ones left in the attic by another character while new dresses are being made for her. Personally I felt like it was a combination of "they tried" and "it was a design choice", but I can see how you'd place it in 😬
One of the nicer touches in "Discovery of Witches" was the redwork coif worn by Susanna.
It happened to have been borrowed from a historical re-enactor (a well known "Kentwelly") who was on set as a consultant (credited) and background artist. A happy and enhancing find.
But overall uneven as you say, and some of the movement was also a bit off (e.g. in one scene the principals turn their back on the queen, for instance).
I really love that you brought some people in to talk about eras and countries and styles that you are less familiar with. Great to learn a bit about Asian history and cloths, and the nun clothing was a nice unexpected surprise.
I love it when smart UA-camrs bring on smart guests and you get to learn a whole lot about stuff you didn't even know you were curious about :)
Ditto that!!! : ) ...
My costuming director called it "capturing a believable setting in history with the use of costuming" rather than historical "accuracy".
My toxic trait is whinging about historical accurate layering unless it’s a men’s doublet being left sexily unbuttoned to show the undershirt.
I'm genuinely surprised with the opinion and ranking for "A Discovery of Witches" since a lot of the female dresses were amazing, I hated the drama because it failed terribly to portray the characters and scenes of the books, but I loved the costumes.
Thus was so much fun, seeing other historical costumers get to talk about their ethnic and/or time of expertise get a 10/10 from me. ❤️
At least The Great is very open about not trying to be accurate
Interestingly, I'm seeing that a lot of the guests/Bernadette seem to be using different metrics on what counts as "they tried". I think the tier list is good in itself but it's better to watch the hosts and see what their impressions are because that says more about the movie than its official rank.
It'd be interesting to see how the Japanese take on Victorian fashion holds up in _Emma: A Victorian Romance._ It's technically 2021 since a new English dub was just released this year. :)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on Portrait of a girl on fire. I watched it three times in a row and the second watch was all about the stunningly beautiful fabrics and clothing
Hi, linguist and musical theatre fan here- I love your name, is it a Cabaret reference or just a great pun? Love it either way lol
Argh, I really liked the movie and the costumes, but it also annoyed me because the realism was so stretched for the sake of the the message they wanted to convey that I couldn't buy into it at all. Things like (among many details of similar nature) the fact that there's this huge castle/mansion where the characters live and apparently there's only one servant girl there with them, AND she has time to embroider in the evenings? Pull another one ;-) I can only enjoy it if I look at it as a parable, not an actual historical movie, which is a bit of a shame because it's clear the production team did take pains to make it look convincing as a period drama.
i really love the The Discovery of the Witches costumes
Me too! I have watched an other costume review for them and I know not everything is period accurate, but apparently there still is a pattern to the discrepancies. For example, the vampires wearing leather trousers. Also, Diana was wearing a more Italian type of gown, but that was because the actress was still breastfeeding at the time and the Italian style made it really easy for her to do that, especially compared to the high collared doublets of the Elizabethan style.
@@killiansirishbeer It kind of strange that they built London to be accurate and then got the dress that wrong.
the tiers seemed pretty inconsistent to be honest, i feel like domina got too much criticism to be "gets the job done" and "a discovery of witches" got too many things right for the yikes emoji. i've never seen either show, but when so much of aDoW gets described as chefs kiss / accurate its extremely weird for it to then be placed in the bottom tier.
Honestly, same. I feel like Bernadette is biased against ADoW for other reasons and just wants to shove it in the lowest category.
I felt the same with her review of Enola Holmes last year.
absolutely love these round up videos, and seeing the collaboration that lets you branch out to more historical periods and cultures is so amazing. i learned so much
Oh my gooood. I’m so excited about the guests and diversity. I would have loved for Claire to go more into detail about the dress of the period they’re describing, not just the mistakes or what was different but what it is actually supposed to look like during the era or what the designers were sort of aiming to recreate, also with the dyes and textures she mentioned. The kind of embroidery they had for the court dress back in the day were just divine!!
Edit: to add to that I would also say to have example pictures of what the guests were talking about would be great! Like when Jimmy explained how long robes are effeminate it would be cool to have a picture of the proper length and when Claire spoke about the Ming dynasty waists and the feathered hats from the Korean 6th century drama!!
It was so fun and great to see you include a lot more variety in the choosing of the dramas and was great to see all the experts and their comments on the costumes. Can't wait for the next one!
Always love your historical timelines, thank you so much. Beautifully done.
Great collab, loved this commentary! Thank You
These videos are incredible! (I say videos, plural, since as a Patreon member I had the joy of already watching part 2)
Having the other experts included was so special and amazing!
Thank you for the tremendous amount of work you put into this!
Lovely lovely work! It's great that you have non-Western series, too! And the wonderful links to the experts! Great work and worth the time to watch.
I love these videos, they are so informative and I find so many POVs, especially as an artist, who sometimes happen to illustrate historical books. Cannot wait for the second part of the video :)
Thank you for capturing a wide range of film and tv media across multiple cultures. This was amazing and informative.
Yessss my favorite annual costuming tradition!! I love how Bernadette brought in even more experts so that everything can be Properly Judged XD
ohhh, i was really curious about the cook of castamar, but not the fancy clothes, the clothes that the protagonist wears! and the other servants as well. She wears her stays a lot like outer garment and i was really interested to know if that was a thing they did. Like in the context of, being inside a kitchen all day... idk. Also she repeated clothes a lot which made me really happy
This was amazing! Love the integration of the guests, I feel like I learned SO MUCH and I hope that future rankings will also feature this! It's so interesting to learn about fashion history with different foci.
Came to watch this video and was SO SURPRISED and EXCITED to see the amazing Yang Cheon Shik as a commenter for Korean fashion!!! 😊
I’m gonna have to disagree about what you said about armour because it’s not quite accurate.
Firstly, full plate started to come around into use in the late 14th century & there was full head to toe suites of steel armour used IN BATTLE during the 15th century. They were not ceremonial & they came into use much earlier than you indicate. The design & function of plate armour peeked in the 16th century & was used widely in the 17th, but it’s use slowly tapered off little by little after that roughly in correlation to the prominence of firearms. Knight Errant is a great resource here on youtube if you want more info on armour.
Secondly, a little nitpicky terminology. Typically it’s not called “plate mail” but “plate armour” or just “plate”. The term “Mail” refers specifically to what many people call “chainmail” nowadays, but “chainmail” is an ahistorical term. Putting “mail” in front of other words to indicate that it’s armour is a very modern thing originating from d&d I think (I could be wrong). I guess it’s a minor thing overall, but I prefer the correct terms cuz I’m pedantic.
What I was thinking exactly. And they don't show a full plate armour which was yet another thing, here you can still see the chain mail.
I also think it's a misconception that women always wore veils. Married women would always have their hair braided but veils would be a fashion "obligation" only when they became older.
Yeah I didn't agree at all with that she said there I guess it's because her area of expertise is historical fashion and not arms and armour.
Thus, the eclectic beauty of topics, discussions, and yummy-ness of YT pedagogy!!!
Also, actual historical accounts of this particular duel mention how difficult it was for Carrouges to kill Le Gris (even when lying helpless on the ground) because he was fully encased in his armor.
The suffixing of "mail" inaccurately to just refer to armour can be dated back to the Victorians (the same people who polished the painted/enameled finishes off plate and told us Vikings wore horned helms). It was perpetuated from there by museums working from Victorian texts. D&D further perpetuated it due to the easy access to "historical" information in (relatively speaking) modern English.
Can't wait to see the series that have made it on to this year's list 😀 It looks like a lot, judging by the fact that this is just the first part 😀
This video is so well made and I really appreciate how you brought on specialists within that area and culture. Such a considered approach to a fun video, thank you!
Thank you for putting The Great in "it was a design choice" because they literally say "*an occasionally true story" on the title card of every episode. In season one Emperor Peter wears a stylized HOODIE. Its not trying to be accurate. Its trying to be funny.
Yes, but… as someone else in the comments said, they really nailed it with the traditional Russian garments, and details such as shoes, maternity dresses for Catherine and actually with the gown she wore at the coronation. To me it was sad that there was no one specialised into Russian fashion. Also another major point - Russia was always late about fashion. Trends traveled much much slowly there, same as east Europe in general - for example I’m from Czechia and even in our literature it is very visible that the trends were always delayed.
I love that there were guest experts for different areas of dress. I particularly loved hearing about Asian cultures, since I don’t know much about those. Claire Yixuan Zheng conveyed so much detail so briefly. I’m impressed! I’m also SUUUUUPER EXCITED for tomorrow’s video! (It is tomorrow for me cause. I am watching now. 😁)
i love this so much! i liked how u included korean historical dramas because there are literally so many of them...would like to see u do a general historical tv shows from other years version of this. i absolutely love the tv show, ‘Mr Sunshine’ and would like to see it be included in as well
Thank you for showcasing other UA-camrs for time periods which you aren’t as well versed in! I love finding new creators to follow!
Yay for guest experts! Thanks for giving us a chance to hear their voices as well!
So great to see genre (horror, sci-fi, etc) films and tv shows included! Also loved learning about the shows from other parts of the world and the bringing in of other folks for areas where there were gaps in your own knowledge!
I’ve never seen Outlander on any of these lists. I’ve heard they do the costumes really well plus it’s my fav.
Also, Leonardo was so fun to watch
I think I've heard Bernadette talk about it before. Maybe last year's vid...or the one before? In short, started out great, but season 5 is a mess. (I'm talking costume design wise. They switched up designers, I think.)
I love when you do collabs! It’s so fun to see everyone with different specialties, it feels like a buffet of history!
This was FUN!! I hope you make this a regular feature.
I remember in the last video several of us talked about including non-western historical fashion so I was very happy to see this in this video :D
Thank you for bringing in so many knowledgeable people to help with the rankings! Thanks to all of you for your insights!
I absolutely love that you brought in so many other people to help rank these movies/shows!!
Thank you for blessing us once again with this herculean task! It is always a delight to hear from so many experts in one place.