Fantastic video thank you very much so much information. I'm a 61 year old retired Marine a little beat up from the years of service. But you really give me motivation. I recently picked up a painfully bone stock 1977 F-150 4x4 4 spd with a 351 modified engine. I seem to have a knack for finding out of the norm vehicles. Thanks for all the great inside and info on this 351m engine. FYI 1977 F150 has never been restored. Been sitting for almost 16 years. It's a short bed Farmtruck but it has full trim and a vinyl roof. I love the patina on it can't wait get it running. First time viewer I will definitely be back.
My dad put a 400 in a 1980 F250 camper special , this was in the early 80's and not much aftermarket support for these engines. The block was a 30 over stock rebuild with factory 8:1 pistons and open chamber heads (2v) .The heads and intake were milled to slightly bump up compression, it had a Isky RV hydraulic cam and Crane adjustable pushrods, recurved stock distributor, Edelbrock SP 2P intake ,625 com Carter AFB carb, Eagle long tube headers into a true dual side exit exhaust ( Midas turbo mufflers) plus the C6 automatic had a mild shift kit with 3.73 : 1 gears blah blah blah. With this humble combination this was one stealthy pick up, it could blow the doors off most other vehicles especially on big hills ( thank goodness in had 2 fuel tanks). I can just imagine what you could do with one of these engines today (aluminium heads better pistons ,roller cams ,roller rockers, EFI better exhaust technology, transmissions etc..) So to make a long story short: Build a 400 and be different plus they are quite good looking especially when dressed up!
I love where you explain the issues of having an aluminum timing cover on an iron Ford 302. I literally had my timing cover bust a lead at the exact point where you pointed to at the 12:00 minute mark on my Lincoln Mark VII with a 5.0. Between work and the family, I just finished up installing a new timing gear-set, timing cover with seal, balancer, water pump, thermostat, thermostat housing, silicone hoses, and radiator. To say the aluminum timing covers leak alot is an understatement. Love the Vids. 0.020"
Thank You! Very Interesting! It's been years since building any engines and just getting back into it for a pickup I'm doing. Just went and looked at a junkyard 351W to replace my 302 ho efi roller. This answered several questins I had before I buy the other engine. Greta Job! I look forward to more of your videos. Daryl
I also need your advice on a conversion I'm asked to do for a customer's 79 Mustang V6 2.8 to a V8 289ci C4 lying in my shop. I know one major difference is that I'll need a rear sump kit for the conversion. Hope to hear from you. Cheers
I found this post very useful I have an engine, transmission, and rolling frame from a 1-ton Ford I'm trying to identify so I can get parts. Nothing else is giving me this much information. Thank you.
I've had all of the engines you mentioned at one time or the other and worked on many of them as a Ford dealership technician,but my favorite has to be the 351 Cleveland. Those were some great engines to me. I've had 302s,390s,360s etc etc. But my 351 Cleveland impressed me the most.
351C had the best set of factory heads. 351M is a smog control, low-compression boat anchor. I've worked on them all myself and my favorite is still the 289.
@@josephtravers777 very true. In my opinion, the only thing to do with a 351m is to pull it out and turn it into a 400 with better heads and intake, or rip it AND the transmission out and put in a 351W and a C4
Just an observation about the 351m engine mounting pads you talked about (center punch, drill and tap) to use the two bolt 351c type mount. It you look at the drivers side of the block in your video, It only has one (the front) of those bosses present. You even touched the spot where the boss is missing in the center location on the drivers side of the block three times. It could turn into a bummer for someone thinking they have the option of using the two bolt mount and find out that other boss is missing. That's the way it looks to me. Your videos bring back my days in the 70ies and 80ies when I built rep AC Cobra's with everything from 302's to side oiler 427's. We even had a SOHC 427 at one time. Talk about a monster engine. All the best from Scottsdale.
Timing chain cover at 11:32 . oldsmobile baby lol. Im so addicted to your channel, at this point you could be building Renault motors and I still would be watching
I enjoy your videos. No need to over complicating the 351-M. Simply put the 351-M is a de-stroked 400 (4" bore 4" stroke) big brother of the 351-C which was created just after the 1969 introduction of the 351W. More 351 engines were needed than could be produced at the Ford Windsor plant so production began at the Ford Cleveland plant while at the same time improving the design of the 351W thus creating the 335 engine series the 351-C and 400 (which replaced the FE 390). Then around 1975 because 351-C engine had ceased production (but not on the 400) and more 351's were needed the 400 was de-stroked to create a 351 designated M. As you have pointed out different from the 351-C because the 400 had taller deck height, larger 3" mains and different engine mounts etc. (there were 400's with both the small and large bolt patterns referred to as FMX blocks made in the early 70's). Looking at the 351M as a 400 makes it much easier to understand and compare to other engines...at least I think so...hope this helps.
So you can get more outta a 351M than a Cleveland? I bought a 71 mustang off family and instead of a 351C under the hood like the vin says I found a 351M. I guess my uncle blew the original. I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth looking around for another 351c or saying screw it and going for a restomod.
I have had a number of these engines and have found that the 351M and 351C had oiling problems with the crank but have not had the same problem with the 351W
A friend of mine bought a 1980 F150 new with the 351m. He changed the oil every 3000 miles, kept the truck looking like new. He was old and never beat on the truck. The engine was junk after 80,000 miles. Every valve guide was gone, rod bearings scared the crank, (rod bearings to skinny, a weak spot in design), and cam was shot. He ended up buying a new motor and sold the truck. I do enjoy your channel. Very informative.
You talked about liquid corrosion. In '81 my dad's 78 Chevy C10, lost a water pump. We added Prestone water pump lube. In '03 I rebuilt engine. To my surprise the steel head gaskets looked new! That was at 330,000+ miles. I just copper coated and reused them. Vintage '78 steel head gaskets and coolant hoses to this day. Take care from Oklahoma Mike and Vee
Those old Chevy shim head gaskets are better than most realise. Use a composite gasket and you lose compression and they seem to fail quicker. I have used them as a single gasket, stacked to get valve clearance even used them with alloy heads. Though not so good there as the alloy is ofcourse softer. And never seen one blown. Leak a bit, yes, with heavily milled heads.
We built a 400 with Boss 302 heads and made spacers for the 351 C INTAKE After we modified the heads to work on that block .This was back in the 1970's because we couldn't get a 400 crank inyto a 351 C block and we had the heads fron another job . It worked well in a 1871 Mach 1 . .
Thank you for the excellent videos! Would love to see ya do a Ford 400 build video because, well because 400s have a lot of potential, and because I own one and will soon be rebuilding it (I've already rebuilt the chassis and purchased a excellent rust free cab and bed for it, so I am well into it. It is a 1980 F350 4X4 I purchase from a 95 year retired rancher and WWII vet. When I bought it two years ago, he told me the house there where he lived, and adjacent barnyard where the truck was parked, was where he picked his wife up for their high school prom date! She also is still alive and doing well. I told him that if I could get the truck running (it had sat for 3 years), and if it would make it up the big hill by his house, I would buy it, and it made it up the hill. Lol. I also own two 1963 fords, a f100 and a f600 that I am doing extensive work on, both have y blocks, and a 1990 F250 driver with 7.3 idi, and a B600 church bus that I have done a fair amount of work to. Guess I'm just an old Ford truck nut. Anyway, you've videos are excellent. Thank you!
Very cool I do have a 400 build waiting in the wings but it's gona be a while I also love Ford trucks I am a really big fan of the FE engines mostly the 390 and 428
I am late to the party here, and great vid! But, if I may correct you, the FE and Y-blocks were two different engine families. 292, 312, etc were Y-blocks, and the FE started out as a 352, 360, 390, 428, etc. The M gets a bad wrap, but they were pretty stout motors. Not power houses by any means, but durable! Although I have heard some having issues with the block shifting in the valley, causing cracks between the lifter bores. Great comparison, to show the difference in mass compared to the SBF!
The FE engines are actually devided into two different types, the car engine FE and the truck engine FT and they're almost the same but there are a few important differences
My dad at a modified in a 76 LTD man that thing ran good and lasted years we could take it cross country and never have no problems out of it he rebuilt it when we first got the car and lasted 12 years till he got rid of it and the guy ran it for years after that till he sold it. I’m not a Ford guy but they built some awesome engines the modifieds don’t get enough love and there really a factor stroker engine.
Lets simplify. 351s all have 4" bore and 3.5 stroke. And the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing. 289, 302W are aprox 8.2 deck. 351W 351 C are about 9.2" and the M engine is 10.2. 351 C and M heads all interchange. But start at under 60cc for Aussie 302C and up to 78cc for 400. All 2Vs use the same valves and they are all that is required. Big valves like a 4V have no airspeed. 302W is tiny, 5.150 for 289 and 5.090 for 302s and deck, Clevos and 351W are an inch taller and the M is an inch taller again. 302C has 6.030 rods, 351C have 5.780 rods 351 and 400M have 6.580 rods. 351W all alone with just under 6" . 351W, 351 and 400M all have 3" mains which really are too big as the larger the dia the more it heats the oil and the bearing. Just ok on a low RPM slugger. The C engine is better but still bigger than the industry standard of a Chev at 2.5". 302W is around that as well. The 289/302 engines are a tiny little thing and go well for what they are BUT really the crankcase is too small. Putting a 3.4 [347] crank in them,, grind pan rails, dent the pan etc to clear the throws and rods. Never really a good idea, even 3.25 is a not great deal better. But does produce a bit more useable torque. The Windsor though does have far better oiling than its larger capacity and bigger block brothers. Ford do make 351 blocks with Clevo main size or 302s with 2" rod journals as well. Just 50 years late! While the ooh aaah with Boss 302s they were actually a dog of a thing to drive. tiny little engine with huge ports,, yup a no bottom end thing that you have to rev hard to make go. Makes a 302Chev so much better and they were no great shakes in street driveability and especially with the best Z28 heads. A 351 Boss style thing has a couple of advantages but the 3" mains do not. So a 351C with 6" rods and a good deal of attention to the oiling is a bit better. People have raced 302C as well. 2V 302 Aussie heads and not a bad thing for under 5 litre racing, but otherwise that capacity is a waste of time. Those heads though are far better than 4Vs up to around 6000rpm. And even then really are too big in the ports. They are bigger than a raceport on a Chev. The canted valve looks impressive but in the real world not so much. 3Vs from Victoria are considerably better but not that cheap! Actually compare a big block Chev head with a Clevo head or even a 429 head! And with all of these engines and not just Fords be very carefull of what component manufacturers make these days. My 400M cruiser engine with the new FM /Speedpro pistons that started with 9.1-1 would have had about 7.5-1 with the new pistons supplied as well as Felpro /050 thick head gaskets compared with the OEM 34 thou. and been a gutless thirsty polluting pig. I used Aussie 302 heads 60CC and have the original 9,1-1 but even then a lousy combo as the pistons down the hole is not efficient or very clean either. But it is a 2 ton tank so does not matter a great deal. It was far sharper with the 78CC heads cut .050 giving about 9.8-1. And cleaner as well! Manufactures should be shot with what they do for unleaded fuel. Especially as for a cruiser most people dont mind buying premium unleaded anyway. Then use a Multispark ignition and it will be near as efficient as a leaded engine and last longer as well.
I had to replace head gasket 5.4 Triton. Had head pressure tested. And check for straight nest. put new time in chains. now I have a rest pin knock. any thought to what I might have done wrong.
I built a mild 400m for my dad,,030 over, slight came upgrade caused valve springs to stack so be aware that m heads need springs replaced for even very slight came lift upgrades. Engine went into a 78 f250 4x4 and still runs great. Very tourquey, turned 40 inch mud tires nicely..
@@dexter2433 it wasn't emissions. It was because Ford sold the rights to make the Cleveland Heads to a company Down Under. I wish i could remember the companies name but it escapes me at the moment.
Cool I had a 79 bronco with a 400 in it dropped a valve and got me home I repaired it and kept drive years more! great engine!... Also had a 351 Cleveland in a 71 galaxie great engine the transmission bolt pattern is a dead giveaway between the Cleveland and the 351m/400... 351c small pattern. 351m/400 big pattern. Easy to spot at the junyard!
really should be calling it a 351m/400 block because they are exactly the same and some may want to know by simple using the 400 crank and 400 pistons you now have 400 cid motor they both use the same rods and everything interchanges.....also if i remember correctly all 351m/400 blocks are cast for excepting the 4 bolt main caps ..also you should know the 351m/400 crank main bearing are the same as the 351w and you can custom cut a 351m/400 crank allowing it to fit in a 351w block creating a stroke kit with all bone stock ford parts making your 351w a 413cid ford windser block if punched 30 over
larger ports and canted valves allow better flow making a setup for better high rpm horsepower if on the drag strip ....but today cheaper after market parts are available making these old school mods obsolete unless you can do allot of the work your self and have the parts just laying around and want to make power on the cheep because your own personal labor is much cheaper than paying a shop to do it for you ..
Better yet is a Boss 351 build which requires a 4 bolt Cleveland block, Cleveland 4 bbl. heads, mechanical cam (etc.), aluminum intake and a big carb...unknown to most Ford fans is that the '71 Boss 351 held the quickest 1/4 mile time of any production ford back in the muscle car era and was only bettered with some of the more recent pony cars. I owned a '70 Mach I with a 351C 4 bbl engine and back in the day the hot rod magazines had documented all it needed was a cam, intake, headers, and big carb to go from 290 HP all the way to 445 HP...I had those mods done to mine and can attest to what a monster it became...when mine was stock I had a very sweet modified LT1 Camaro run away from me and hide and after my mods I did the same to him....and as one more anecdote, when my Dad and me were tearing the engine down for the mods, we checked the tolerances and were astounded to find our block had 4 bolt mains, which was not the norm but apparently some of the 4 bbl 351 Clevelands got the 4 bolt blocks....whereas all the Boss blocks were 4 bolt....also for those who don't know, the reason I keep saying 4 bbl engine is because the 2 bbl cleveland heads had smaller valves, which were still sizable but not the BBC sized valves in the 4 bbl engine.
3 years later I'm watching your videos..I just bought a 1977 ford truck with a 351 m..that is Simi locked up...so I have to rebuild or see if I want to modify the engine
the 351 m started replacing the Fe 360 in pickup trucks they work pretty good if you use the oil pressure gauge as a tachometer and driving like that keep them revved up and pumping oil everybody was lugging them and the bearings didn't last when you love them 351m low oil pressure really drops
the 351m/400 crank journals are the same as a 351w should try building a clevor by grinding a 400 crank counter weights then re-balance allowing you to get 4" stroke in a 351w block
@@Myvintageiron7512 Do you take in outside work? I don’t see any info for your shop on here. I’m up in Cave Creek and need to have a valve job done on my 79 bronco with a 351M. I was going to drop the heads off at Phoenix Engine but my buddy got screwed around by them and I’d prefer to go to you since I love your videos.Thanks, Dave
My son bought a Ford farm truck with a 351 modified, it only has 55000 miles but number 4 cylinder seems to have a burnt valve, is this a common problem? The plug has spark but it's oily and it's definitely no. 4 that either has no compression or something because the engine runs the same with or without spark on that cylinder.
Australia produced 351 Cleveland for quite a number of years which have thicker blocks then they also did something very strange they made a 302 Cleveland, same size block different size conrods Actually longer. So a very popular build many years ago was 2 use the 302 con rods on the 351 crank with shorter pistons and presto a lot of power
I think you can use the 400 crank and rods to make the 351M into a 400. those are really decent engines to work with that sadly the aftermarket forgot about. the Horsepower Monster channel built a 400 with Cleveland heads and other little tricks,all naturally aspirated and got over 500 HP and very high torque numbers with a flat as Kansas torque curve. love to take a engine like that and build a Starsky and Hutch replica of a 74-76 2 door Torino with! that is me though!
it is the crank and pistons to convert to a 400cid both have the same rods ....the 351 uses a 3.5" stroke crank and pistons with a relocated wrist pin to make the 351cid
remember this is the early days of motor technology with out computers to help with engineering but for the time the side oilier is still the only motor banned from NASCAR because dodge and Chevy cried like babies and now we have the 355cic limit www.rcnmag.com/blog/whats-so-special-about-the-side-oiler
The best is a 351 W block, 400M crank as it fits in 351w block and 351 C 4V Heads with an Aussie Clevor intake if you go 0.030 over on bore you got a 408ci 4V Boss motor !
The American 302 and 351 Windsor are basically the same engine with a different deck height. The 351 Cleveland and the 351/400M are basically the same engine with different deck heights. Now there are some differences in main journal sizes and bell housing mounting, etc, but that's the basics of both designs.
coolest ford engine I ever had was a worked 352. It was in a pulling truck not sure what was all done but it ripped. I was young and didnt know that much back then I remember the valves were huge though no way they were stock. it had huge intake ports too my uncle told me it was a thunderbird special or something like that
would luv to see a clevor bogus boss build! 335 series blocks were all cast for 4 bolt mains. You can see it on the rear main boss of 351M. Very rugged block.
great videos. my questiin......is the Cleveland block (other than the two different deck heights) similar to the modified block with the Windsor transmission bellhousing pattern and two bolt motor mounts?
So on the 351M if there is water and oil mixing it will not be from a bad intake gasket? I purchased a 351M f100 and the motor was supposedly rebuilt but i have the dreaded milkshake. I have no experience with 351M motors so i was thinking maybe it was a crappy intake gasket but if there are no water ports then im assuming that wouldnt be the case. Correct?
I'm also hoping you will show a Y block eng 272 - 312. I thought the 312 came out in 56 but everything i'm reading shows 312 didn't come out till 57. I have a 56 F100 . I was hoping it had the 312 Y block, but apparently i'm wrong, it's a 272.
hi there i would like to know what is the 351 modified is it the Windsor motor as i have a 302 Winsor in my 1989 f150 4x4 and got to replace the motor in the next 6 months and can you Cleveland motor be set up for unleaded fuel heads.
ik heb ook en 400 M in mijn sportsroef 1972 wat kan ik het beste doen om de vermogen op te schroeven ik heb nu e twe barel 2150 carburateur op zitten wat raad je mijn aan thanks Tonie vrom holand gr.
could you show me where the casting numbers are on the 302 ford motor and maybe explain them please. getting ready to pull the 302 on my sons 81 mustang which was originaly a 4 cylinder car think you.
I would like to know this as well. I purchased a 302 that apparently is a Mexican Block (higher nickel content, stronger ... for boost...). Can you verify the markings that prove its a Mexican block?
Look for "HECHO EN MEXICO" on the Lifters valley...also the main caps are bigger than either a 289 or std 302...Block Identified by casting numbers C8AM-B, 75ZY-AA, D1ZM-AA, among others, above the starter....but basically if it says MEXICO in the lifters valley it is a Mexican 302, if it doesn't, it is not.
Thanks guys, I have heard of a few ways but the lifter valley seems to be the most consistent answer. thanks for the great vids, looking forward to more SBF in the future.
E Gibson Yepper...I've been around enough 289's, HIPO 289's, 302's, Boss 302's to be able to look at the main caps and tell what I'm looking at but the lifter valley is the sure fire way to ident a Mexican 302...btw I would hope you wouldn't over value the Mexican 302...it is just marginally stronger and also weighs more so in today's world I wouldn't consider it for any type of real heavy duty (i.e. High performance) operation...they were more valuable back in the day when they were the best option available for additional block/mains strength when hot rodding a 289/302, but obviously that isn't the case anymore.
@Myvintageiron7512 can you confirm that a 351m/400 heads will bolt on a 351w? and if so are there other parts that need to be changed? will the OEM 5.8 intake manifold work?
I was not aware the FE blocks were called Y-Blocks. I thought the Ford only made a few Y-blocks such as the 272 that was in my '57 F100, 292, and 312 that was in the Fords.. Not including the Lincoln or Merc.
FEs were an upgrade on the Y block. Same basic infrastructure. But FEs were far more modern in the head design.Y blocks were 232 272 and 292. And the 332 was a bit of both. Smallest FE I feel was 252? I dont know these engines near as well as Clevo and M engines. Or Windsors. The 429-460 are too an xtent a big boss 302! And are NOT FEs!
externally the 4V on the front is the only way. Though a 4V will always come with a 4bbl intake and a large carby. Take the intake off and the intake ports are way bigger than a 2V. Too large! There is 4v open and closed chamber engines, about 10cc different in volume. And all 4Vs have larger valves which like the ports are too big. For decades people have been fitting those heads with tongues on the intakes to try and get some velocity through the port.
I have a ??,, can a AODE transmission work with a 351 Windsor? I have a 302 engine in my truck but would like to swap it to a 351,I that possible? Thanks in advance
I'm not aware of a 6" rod for a 302 I wouldn't run that long of a rod anyway the rod ratio would be to high for that short stroke it would hurt your torque
Great video brother I have 351m in all 3 of my Fords. ( 78 Bronco Ranger XLT) (78 F150 Ranger XLT) (78 F250 Custom) All 4x4 Good to know I can up the transmission on them!
Got the 78 same model same engine It’s my understanding an 4spd eod tranny will bolt right up Going to rebuild it one day Going this route www.garysgaragemahal.com/351m-and-400.html And or maybe this www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to-build-ford-351-cleveland/?fbclid=IwAR2bwMeMmCwVLa3MeAsCG0JklmM4KaMMUALShaaqFQQ4-UIsPh_F-ucQG00 Or www.tmeyerinc.com/engine-builds/ What mods have you done if any The hot rod article was just published 1-2019
If you use the 2v closed chamber heads the compression raises to 10,75,1.is that to much for a 400?I hear you need to run 96 octaine plus or they can pre detinate?
You've covered the 302 & 351W's and 302 &351C's and the 351M and mentioned the Boss and the FE and the Y block now as I remember there was another OHV Ford V8...As I remember it had 5 bellhousing bolt holes...Early Mustang 289's may be.?..Not sure 'bout that or was it the 260.?..
The reason the 400 had the style engine mounts and bellhousing bolt pattern, the engine was designed to replace the 390 FE engine in the full size cars. The mounts were designed to fit into the same location as the 460. This made it easy to install ether a 460 or a 400 using the same frame mount and transmission. Ford didn't intend the 400 to be used as a small block replacement!
Correct, One year they were drilled small Windsor pattern for one model of car. The 351/400M are big blocks. Use C6 normally. I would like a 4 speed auto but nothing fits the block to my knowledge, or not here in Oz anyway.
Cause the 390 did not meet emissions laws for 1977 1976 and early model light duty trucks had the 390 as a option then 1977 and later trucks 390 was replaced by 351M and 400 and a stick shift transmission was an option but in the full size cars with these engines only had the automatic.
this 302 came out of a ltaer model mustang. All I know as of now. Bought it through a friend who is selling everything he owns. It can work but, is the best choice for a 66 Bronco, that I am not interrested in a Coyote 5.0. In other words would a 351 Windsor be a much better choice? Also are there complete conversion parts for sale as they are for the earlier engnes. This engine must be much different from the 302 that was a Bronco engine in 69. I'm trying to learn knowing nothing much about engines, torque, etc.
Hey quick question for you. My son and I are doing a ‘77 F150 4x4 project together. Stock motor is is a 351M but I want to swap it over to ‘87 5.0 HP. I know the actual engine mounts are different from 351/400 to 302/5.0 motors but what about the frame engine mounts will I need to make any modifications? Thanks Jeff
If a person were to build a car would they want to go with a 351W or a 351M... I've got a stock 351M from 1977 as well but my 1970 cougar came with the 351W, fitting isnt a problem but modifying it to be a nice little runner what would you say?
I really appreciate your knowledge..you've answered a few constant thoughts...my only problem/concerns are which is easier to install in a 1998 Lincoln Town Car, and I am guessing the 351 makes more horsepower over the 302....🤔 ?
negative the 1998 lincoln town car had a 4.6 not and older 351w or 351m or 351c 302 and if you want a direct bolt in motor with allot of power look for a 4v Lincoln mark 8 type motor or a 4v later cobra motor ..600hp easy if built correctly
@@dexter2433 Thanks for the reply, but that's the whole purpose of choosing a older motor.. I am trying to get away from the PCM/Computer, sensors, and expensive tunning.... I was hoping to hear, direct bolt on, or slightly modifi to fit
Awesome video, not sure if you have another video on putting 4v Cleveland heads on a 400 the do's and dont's, see I have been doing a lot of reading on blogs and such and I have found myself still wondering about what I can do, I am my own worst enemy and kick ass at wasting money and have a shit ton of parts on my shelves from ways that didn't work on other projects anyhow what can I do to put 4v Cleveland heads on my 400 and hey is it worth it like I'm not going to change the cam just heads and 4v intake I'm thinking it would be a low bang for the buck unless you tell me other wise thanks great videos btw you've help me through all the bullshit and puss people try to feed me
David Freiburger was saying there is a stroker engine you can build from a custom block, known as the 1A (or it could be vice versa) there is so much roadkill / motortrend / DF material out there just on here , I would never find it! . But it has the size of the 260 / 289 blocks, but you can make bore / stroke combinations safely up into the 420 size while maintaining the smaller early block outside dimensions. I wonder if anyone here knows which block I am on about, as it's from Kaase or some other custom manufacturer.. But seriously, a 351 is a huge engine for what size it actually is ... just look at it in a bay fully assembled compared to a chevy 350 or LS .. GIANT! .. the 429 is actually not much bigger as it is in the same class of engine (Windsor) , just have a look!
If anyone is confused there is a 351m motor but they did come in a 6.6l 400ci variation. I would check the valve cover it should tell you. I got lucky and got a 400ci, I plan to bore it .30 over which would make it from what I was told by formula 408.178. But who cares about the .178 I'm getting a 408 with a .30 over bore, good pistons, heads,cam,rockers,intake, get the compression to 10 to 1 or higher and that "dog" of a motor will run. One quick question I have is it the exact same size as a Windsor or Cleveland? I believe them to be just not 100% sure.
you solved so many doubts, almost nobody explains this in Spanish ( if you are curious I have a 1979 F100 Ranger supercab short bed 351M manual transmission RWD
shyboyangelus As far as I know, you can't without taking a head off and measuring stroke. The 351m/and 400m have the same blocks. It's the crank that makes the difference. 3.50 vs 4.00. Just a technical fyi. 4in. stroke by 4in. bore is actually 402 cubic inches. Just for shits and giggles.
@@thesixgunfighter288rule of thumb is , if you have a 4 inch bore on a V8 the length of stroke is very close to the cubic inch displacement of the motor !
Michael Anthony my 77 Ford F-250 read as this 6.6 liter /400-400M . My 70 F150 xlt read as this 351/400M . The 400 /400 M is the best ford work engine imho. No hi rpms tho. 600cfm 2 barrel stock . Great power and dependability and got a honest 16 mpg when running properly. The 79 1/2 ton with the 351/400M just didn’t have it compared to the 400/400M . It did have a 4 barrel and long tube headers with mad ignition and a red air filter. Didn’t matter tho that old stock 400M was a pure BEAST. My bro blew up my 79 “ not one dent or scratch btw” while out one night on a hot date . Don’t know how he did it but he blew a 13,000 dollar FORD RACING engine ( blue printed ) I bought it complete from a man who was just getting to know how married life goes, on the cheap. He spent a lot of hard earned tow boater money on that truck in the 10 years he was single. Spent 13,000 on the engine alone. It was built to the hilt still the stock 400M ate it for breakfast. Oh ya my younger brother spun the mains on that “ racing engine” on his second run . Still won . But blew my hi dollar 79 up. I tried to blow that 400m stock engine up for 8 years and could not do it. It eventually ate up the oil rings to the point I had to clean every plug in the engine per day of work. Otherwise it would not start. Good ol ford she was. And I doubled my money on the 79 with the mains spun . That conveniences me there is something different besides 1 1/2 years of production. I want to put one in a Mercury Cougar from the 90’s but I don’t think it fits .
I had a nasty 2.3 lima engine 4 banger, milled head, stainless steel valves, crane solid lifter cam half inch lift with around 260 degrees duration a four barrel split plane intake manifold with a 390 Holley going out a Hooker header into a glass pak around double the stock hp, as for rod length you can use chevy rods, aftermarket pistons etc.
Fantastic video thank you very much so much information. I'm a 61 year old retired Marine a little beat up from the years of service. But you really give me motivation. I recently picked up a painfully bone stock 1977 F-150 4x4 4 spd with a 351 modified engine. I seem to have a knack for finding out of the norm vehicles. Thanks for all the great inside and info on this 351m engine. FYI 1977 F150 has never been restored. Been sitting for almost 16 years. It's a short bed Farmtruck but it has full trim and a vinyl roof. I love the patina on it can't wait get it running. First time viewer I will definitely be back.
Thanks for posting, you answered 20 yrs. of my questions regarding these Ford engines!!!
My dad put a 400 in a 1980 F250 camper special , this was in the early 80's and not much aftermarket support for these engines. The block was a 30 over stock rebuild with factory 8:1 pistons and open chamber heads (2v) .The heads and intake were milled to slightly bump up compression, it had a Isky RV hydraulic cam and Crane adjustable pushrods, recurved stock distributor, Edelbrock SP 2P intake ,625 com Carter AFB carb, Eagle long tube headers into a true dual side exit exhaust ( Midas turbo mufflers) plus the C6 automatic had a mild shift kit with 3.73 : 1 gears blah blah blah. With this humble combination this was one stealthy pick up, it could blow the doors off most other vehicles especially on big hills ( thank goodness in had 2 fuel tanks). I can just imagine what you could do with one of these engines today (aluminium heads better pistons ,roller cams ,roller rockers, EFI better exhaust technology, transmissions etc..) So to make a long story short: Build a 400 and be different plus they are quite good looking especially when dressed up!
I love where you explain the issues of having an aluminum timing cover on an iron Ford 302. I literally had my timing cover bust a lead at the exact point where you pointed to at the 12:00 minute mark on my Lincoln Mark VII with a 5.0. Between work and the family, I just finished up installing a new timing gear-set, timing cover with seal, balancer, water pump, thermostat, thermostat housing, silicone hoses, and radiator. To say the aluminum timing covers leak alot is an understatement.
Love the Vids.
0.020"
I'm a Chevy guy but I like building engines and it doesn't matter what kind it is. Great video.
i agree i gots two toyotas i got to refresh high mile good runner 5mge 2.8l 7mgte 3.0 in-liners
Thank You! Very Interesting! It's been years since building any engines and just getting back into it for a pickup I'm doing. Just went and looked at a junkyard 351W to replace my 302 ho efi roller. This answered several questins I had before I buy the other engine. Greta Job! I look forward to more of your videos. Daryl
My 1997 F150 4.6 is totally stock, 200,000 miles. When you get it up to 90 or so it has the sweetest sound. Single exhaust. Heart of a tiger.
300000 96 tbird bullet proof sadly governor kicks in at118. Only once but lots left.lol
thank you sooo much for all these videos !!! we all need more of this ford knowledge . cause there so darn complicated .
I always like your videos. You give all the details & knowledge necessary to your viewers. Thanks a lot mate, keep up the good work.
I also need your advice on a conversion I'm asked to do for a customer's 79 Mustang V6 2.8 to a V8 289ci C4 lying in my shop. I know one major difference is that I'll need a rear sump kit for the conversion. Hope to hear from you. Cheers
So informative - thank you so much! I picked up a 1976 truck that has been cobbled together, and this will definitely help me identify what I have. 👍
I found this post very useful I have an engine, transmission, and rolling frame from a 1-ton Ford I'm trying to identify so I can get parts. Nothing else is giving me this much information. Thank you.
I've had all of the engines you mentioned at one time or the other and worked on many of them as a Ford dealership technician,but my favorite has to be the 351 Cleveland. Those were some great engines to me. I've had 302s,390s,360s etc etc. But my 351 Cleveland impressed me the most.
351C had the best set of factory heads. 351M is a smog control, low-compression boat anchor. I've worked on them all myself and my favorite is still the 289.
@@josephtravers777 very true. In my opinion, the only thing to do with a 351m is to pull it out and turn it into a 400 with better heads and intake, or rip it AND the transmission out and put in a 351W and a C4
@@ssgpentland8241 The big problem w/ 351M/400 platform is deck height/piston availability to bump up compression.
Clevelands breath fire
Really good vid, and thanks for the discussion about dwell, as well as all the other infor you provide.
Just an observation about the 351m engine mounting pads you talked about (center punch, drill and tap) to use the two bolt 351c type mount. It you look at the drivers side of the block in your video, It only has one (the front) of those bosses present. You even touched the spot where the boss is missing in the center location on the drivers side of the block three times. It could turn into a bummer for someone thinking they have the option of using the two bolt mount and find out that other boss is missing. That's the way it looks to me. Your videos bring back my days in the 70ies and 80ies when I built rep AC Cobra's with everything from 302's to side oiler 427's. We even had a SOHC 427 at one time. Talk about a monster engine.
All the best from Scottsdale.
Timing chain cover at 11:32 . oldsmobile baby lol. Im so addicted to your channel, at this point you could be building Renault motors and I still would be watching
I enjoy your videos. No need to over complicating the 351-M. Simply put the 351-M is a de-stroked 400 (4" bore 4" stroke) big brother of the 351-C which was created just after the 1969 introduction of the 351W. More 351 engines were needed than could be produced at the Ford Windsor plant so production began at the Ford Cleveland plant while at the same time improving the design of the 351W thus creating the 335 engine series the 351-C and 400 (which replaced the FE 390). Then around 1975 because 351-C engine had ceased production (but not on the 400) and more 351's were needed the 400 was de-stroked to create a 351 designated M. As you have pointed out different from the 351-C because the 400 had taller deck height, larger 3" mains and different engine mounts etc. (there were 400's with both the small and large bolt patterns referred to as FMX blocks made in the early 70's). Looking at the 351M as a 400 makes it much easier to understand and compare to other engines...at least I think so...hope this helps.
Elstevo Mac understood
Windsor also built Cleveland engines...
So you can get more outta a 351M than a Cleveland? I bought a 71 mustang off family and instead of a 351C under the hood like the vin says I found a 351M. I guess my uncle blew the original. I’m trying to figure out if it’s worth looking around for another 351c or saying screw it and going for a restomod.
@@Bonanzaking pull the 351 and drop a 400m with the cleveland 4v heads and you have a stroked cleveland. They run very well.,I have two.
@@briana3467 2v heads are proven to be better for the street. What are your 2 400 setup for?
I have had a number of these engines and have found that the 351M and 351C had oiling problems with the crank but have not had the same problem with the 351W
A friend of mine bought a 1980 F150 new with the 351m. He changed the oil every 3000 miles, kept the truck looking like new. He was old and never beat on the truck. The engine was junk after 80,000 miles. Every valve guide was gone, rod bearings scared the crank, (rod bearings to skinny, a weak spot in design), and cam was shot. He ended up buying a new motor and sold the truck.
I do enjoy your channel. Very informative.
If you’ll notice also on your 351 block, the fuel pump bolt up is top and bottom where your 302 is side to side.
You talked about liquid corrosion. In '81 my dad's 78 Chevy C10, lost a water pump. We added Prestone water pump lube. In '03 I rebuilt engine. To my surprise the steel head gaskets looked new! That was at 330,000+ miles. I just copper coated and reused them. Vintage '78 steel head gaskets and coolant hoses to this day.
Take care from Oklahoma
Mike and Vee
Those old Chevy shim head gaskets are better than most realise. Use a composite gasket and you lose compression and they seem to fail quicker. I have used them as a single gasket, stacked to get valve clearance even used them with alloy heads. Though not so good there as the alloy is ofcourse softer. And never seen one blown. Leak a bit, yes, with heavily milled heads.
In Australia the 302 Cleveland used a shorter stroke crank with 351 pin height piston with 351M rod, just to muddy the waters a bit more
Sorry not 351 M rod as it is 6.25 inch , the 302 Cleveland has a six inch rod , made in Australia just like the 302c block
We built a 400 with Boss 302 heads and made spacers for the 351 C INTAKE After we modified the heads to work on that block .This was back in the 1970's because we couldn't get a 400 crank inyto a 351 C block and we had the heads fron another job . It worked well in a 1871 Mach 1 .
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Thank you for the excellent videos! Would love to see ya do a Ford 400 build video because, well because 400s have a lot of potential, and because I own one and will soon be rebuilding it (I've already rebuilt the chassis and purchased a excellent rust free cab and bed for it, so I am well into it. It is a 1980 F350 4X4 I purchase from a 95 year retired rancher and WWII vet. When I bought it two years ago, he told me the house there where he lived, and adjacent barnyard where the truck was parked, was where he picked his wife up for their high school prom date! She also is still alive and doing well. I told him that if I could get the truck running (it had sat for 3 years), and if it would make it up the big hill by his house, I would buy it, and it made it up the hill. Lol. I also own two 1963 fords, a f100 and a f600 that I am doing extensive work on, both have y blocks, and a 1990 F250 driver with 7.3 idi, and a B600 church bus that I have done a fair amount of work to. Guess I'm just an old Ford truck nut. Anyway, you've videos are excellent. Thank you!
Very cool I do have a 400 build waiting in the wings but it's gona be a while I also love Ford trucks I am a really big fan of the FE engines mostly the 390 and 428
@@dtorr222 Thank you for your reply. And again, I appreciate the high quality of your videos.
I am late to the party here, and great vid! But, if I may correct you, the FE and Y-blocks were two different engine families. 292, 312, etc were Y-blocks, and the FE started out as a 352, 360, 390, 428, etc. The M gets a bad wrap, but they were pretty stout motors. Not power houses by any means, but durable! Although I have heard some having issues with the block shifting in the valley, causing cracks between the lifter bores. Great comparison, to show the difference in mass compared to the SBF!
The FE engines are actually devided into two different types, the car engine FE and the truck engine FT and they're almost the same but there are a few important differences
Excellent video! I definitely would've liked to see the Y block comparisons as well. Future vid maybe..
My dad at a modified in a 76 LTD man that thing ran good and lasted years we could take it cross country and never have no problems out of it he rebuilt it when we first got the car and lasted 12 years till he got rid of it and the guy ran it for years after that till he sold it. I’m not a Ford guy but they built some awesome engines the modifieds don’t get enough love and there really a factor stroker engine.
OK, where did this build end up? This seems to be the last video.
Lets simplify. 351s all have 4" bore and 3.5 stroke. And the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing.
289, 302W are aprox 8.2 deck. 351W 351 C are about 9.2" and the M engine is 10.2.
351 C and M heads all interchange. But start at under 60cc for Aussie 302C and up to 78cc for 400. All 2Vs use the same valves and they are all that is required. Big valves like a 4V have no airspeed.
302W is tiny, 5.150 for 289 and 5.090 for 302s and deck,
Clevos and 351W are an inch taller and the M is an inch taller again.
302C has 6.030 rods, 351C have 5.780 rods 351 and 400M have 6.580 rods.
351W all alone with just under 6" .
351W, 351 and 400M all have 3" mains which really are too big as the larger the dia the more it heats the oil and the bearing. Just ok on a low RPM slugger. The C engine is better but still bigger than the industry standard of a Chev at 2.5". 302W is around that as well.
The 289/302 engines are a tiny little thing and go well for what they are BUT really the crankcase is too small. Putting a 3.4 [347] crank in them,, grind pan rails, dent the pan etc to clear the throws and rods. Never really a good idea, even 3.25 is a not great deal better. But does produce a bit more useable torque.
The Windsor though does have far better oiling than its larger capacity and bigger block brothers. Ford do make 351 blocks with Clevo main size or 302s with 2" rod journals as well. Just 50 years late!
While the ooh aaah with Boss 302s they were actually a dog of a thing to drive. tiny little engine with huge ports,, yup a no bottom end thing that you have to rev hard to make go. Makes a 302Chev so much better and they were no great shakes in street driveability and especially with the best Z28 heads.
A 351 Boss style thing has a couple of advantages but the 3" mains do not.
So a 351C with 6" rods and a good deal of attention to the oiling is a bit better. People have raced 302C as well. 2V 302 Aussie heads and not a bad thing for under 5 litre racing, but otherwise that capacity is a waste of time.
Those heads though are far better than 4Vs up to around 6000rpm. And even then really are too big in the ports. They are bigger than a raceport on a Chev. The canted valve looks impressive but in the real world not so much. 3Vs from Victoria are considerably better but not that cheap!
Actually compare a big block Chev head with a Clevo head or even a 429 head!
And with all of these engines and not just Fords be very carefull of what component manufacturers make these days. My 400M cruiser engine with the new FM /Speedpro pistons that started with 9.1-1 would have had about 7.5-1 with the new pistons supplied as well as Felpro /050 thick head gaskets compared with the OEM 34 thou. and been a gutless thirsty polluting pig. I used Aussie 302 heads 60CC and have the original 9,1-1 but even then a lousy combo as the pistons down the hole is not efficient or very clean either. But it is a 2 ton tank so does not matter a great deal. It was far sharper with the 78CC heads cut .050 giving about 9.8-1. And cleaner as well!
Manufactures should be shot with what they do for unleaded fuel. Especially as for a cruiser most people dont mind buying premium unleaded anyway. Then use a Multispark ignition and it will be near as efficient as a leaded engine and last longer as well.
LDN Wholesale great info on that comment
I had a 78 Mercury Marquis with a 351m minute and I absolutely loved it
I had to replace head gasket 5.4 Triton. Had head pressure tested. And check for straight nest. put new time in chains. now I have a rest pin knock. any thought to what I might have done wrong.
I built a mild 400m for my dad,,030 over, slight came upgrade caused valve springs to stack so be aware that m heads need springs replaced for even very slight came lift upgrades. Engine went into a 78 f250 4x4 and still runs great. Very tourquey, turned 40 inch mud tires nicely..
here in australia we had a 302 cleveland with closed chamber 2v heads
maybe would like to know more I know yall got stuff we did not get in the states do to emissions
@@dexter2433 it wasn't emissions. It was because Ford sold the rights to make the Cleveland Heads to a company Down Under. I wish i could remember the companies name but it escapes me at the moment.
Cool I had a 79 bronco with a 400 in it dropped a valve and got me home I repaired it and kept drive years more! great engine!... Also had a 351 Cleveland in a 71 galaxie great engine the transmission bolt pattern is a dead giveaway between the Cleveland and the 351m/400... 351c small pattern. 351m/400 big pattern. Easy to spot at the junyard!
really should be calling it a 351m/400 block because they are exactly the same and some may want to know by simple using the 400 crank and 400 pistons you now have 400 cid motor they both use the same rods and everything interchanges.....also if i remember correctly all 351m/400 blocks are cast for excepting the 4 bolt main caps ..also you should know the 351m/400 crank main bearing are the same as the 351w and you can custom cut a 351m/400 crank allowing it to fit in a 351w block creating a stroke kit with all bone stock ford parts making your 351w a 413cid ford windser block if punched 30 over
Dude< when you gonna do this 351m build ...waiting....
So obviously it wasnt soon like said in the video?
Could you talk more about the 351m intake manifolds advantages and disadvantages.
larger ports and canted valves allow better flow making a setup for better high rpm horsepower if on the drag strip ....but today cheaper after market parts are available making these old school mods obsolete unless you can do allot of the work your self and have the parts just laying around and want to make power on the cheep because your own personal labor is much cheaper than paying a shop to do it for you ..
Better yet is a Boss 351 build which requires a 4 bolt Cleveland block, Cleveland 4 bbl. heads, mechanical cam (etc.), aluminum intake and a big carb...unknown to most Ford fans is that the '71 Boss 351 held the quickest 1/4 mile time of any production ford back in the muscle car era and was only bettered with some of the more recent pony cars. I owned a '70 Mach I with a 351C 4 bbl engine and back in the day the hot rod magazines had documented all it needed was a cam, intake, headers, and big carb to go from 290 HP all the way to 445 HP...I had those mods done to mine and can attest to what a monster it became...when mine was stock I had a very sweet modified LT1 Camaro run away from me and hide and after my mods I did the same to him....and as one more anecdote, when my Dad and me were tearing the engine down for the mods, we checked the tolerances and were astounded to find our block had 4 bolt mains, which was not the norm but apparently some of the 4 bbl 351 Clevelands got the 4 bolt blocks....whereas all the Boss blocks were 4 bolt....also for those who don't know, the reason I keep saying 4 bbl engine is because the 2 bbl cleveland heads had smaller valves, which were still sizable but not the BBC sized valves in the 4 bbl engine.
thank you. I'm new to ford motor's and this help me a lot.
3 years later I'm watching your videos..I just bought a 1977 ford truck with a 351 m..that is Simi locked up...so I have to rebuild or see if I want to modify the engine
the 351 m started replacing the Fe 360 in pickup trucks they work pretty good if you use the oil pressure gauge as a tachometer and driving like that keep them revved up and pumping oil everybody was lugging them and the bearings didn't last when you love them 351m low oil pressure really drops
I recommend a high volume pump for this engine and don't over rev it either these engines don't like high RPM's the crank journals are to big
the 351m/400 crank journals are the same as a 351w should try building a clevor by grinding a 400 crank counter weights then re-balance allowing you to get 4" stroke in a 351w block
So the 352M has the same bell housing as the 460 could a 351 M bolt up to the 460 motor mounts?
10 4 very informative loaded with information I use to be a chev man all my live my boys got me started on mustangs
I like chevy's and Fords Ive has some really good ones from both brands but my favorite is Mopar
@@Myvintageiron7512 Do you take in outside work? I don’t see any info for your shop on here. I’m up in Cave Creek and need to have a valve job done on my 79 bronco with a 351M. I was going to drop the heads off at Phoenix Engine but my buddy got screwed around by them and I’d prefer to go to you since I love your videos.Thanks, Dave
My son bought a Ford farm truck with a 351 modified, it only has 55000 miles but number 4 cylinder seems to have a burnt valve, is this a common problem? The plug has spark but it's oily and it's definitely no. 4 that either has no compression or something because the engine runs the same with or without spark on that cylinder.
I haven't heard of this being common but one thing is for sure you need to pull the head
Australia produced 351 Cleveland for quite a number of years which have thicker blocks then they also did something very strange they made a 302 Cleveland, same size block different size conrods Actually longer.
So a very popular build many years ago was 2 use the 302 con rods on the 351 crank with shorter pistons and presto a lot of power
Yep I am getting ready to do a clevor engine 351W with edelbrock aluminum heads
I think you can use the 400 crank and rods to make the 351M into a 400. those are really decent engines to work with that sadly the aftermarket forgot about. the Horsepower Monster channel built a 400 with Cleveland heads and other little tricks,all naturally aspirated and got over 500 HP and very high torque numbers with a flat as Kansas torque curve. love to take a engine like that and build a Starsky and Hutch replica of a 74-76 2 door Torino with! that is me though!
I live in Kansas not that flat till you get out west. Just saying.
it is the crank and pistons to convert to a 400cid both have the same rods ....the 351 uses a 3.5" stroke crank and pistons with a relocated wrist pin to make the 351cid
Can you please explain the side oiler part of the 427. Thanks
Great videos.
remember this is the early days of motor technology with out computers to help with engineering but for the time the side oilier is still the only motor banned from NASCAR
because dodge and Chevy cried like babies and now we have the 355cic limit
www.rcnmag.com/blog/whats-so-special-about-the-side-oiler
more info on the 351m would be great ! cant wait to see what your going to do to that thing
It's coming
Will you need a custom intake manifold for 351M with other heads?
Could you take a 351W and use the heads of a Cleveland like you can with a 302?
Yes, IF you can find an intake to suit. They are /were made but all of these engines are not that popular with manufacturers. Only 302/ 5L Windsors.
yes , it's called a clevor engine.
The best is a 351 W block, 400M crank as it fits in 351w block and 351 C 4V Heads with an Aussie Clevor intake if you go 0.030 over on bore you got a 408ci 4V Boss motor !
The American 302 and 351 Windsor are basically the same engine with a different deck height.
The 351 Cleveland and the 351/400M are basically the same engine with different deck heights.
Now there are some differences in main journal sizes and bell housing mounting, etc, but that's the basics of both designs.
coolest ford engine I ever had was a worked 352. It was in a pulling truck not sure what was all done but it ripped. I was young and didnt know that much back then I remember the valves were huge though no way they were stock. it had huge intake ports too my uncle told me it was a thunderbird special or something like that
yep the FE was a great engine
would luv to see a clevor bogus boss build! 335 series blocks were all cast for 4 bolt mains. You can see it on the rear main boss of 351M. Very rugged block.
Sorry mate , 351 Clevelands and 302 Clevelands from Australia had two bolt mains from 1975 untill production stopped on Clevelands in 1984/5
great videos. my questiin......is the Cleveland block (other than the two different deck heights) similar to the modified block with the Windsor transmission bellhousing pattern and two bolt motor mounts?
yes
So what kind of heads do I need to find to turn them into replica boss heads as I'd like to put those on my 302 this year
351 Clevland
So on the 351M if there is water and oil mixing it will not be from a bad intake gasket? I purchased a 351M f100 and the motor was supposedly rebuilt but i have the dreaded milkshake. I have no experience with 351M motors so i was thinking maybe it was a crappy intake gasket but if there are no water ports then im assuming that wouldnt be the case. Correct?
I'm also hoping you will show a Y block eng 272 - 312. I thought the 312 came out in 56 but everything i'm reading shows 312 didn't come out till 57. I have a 56 F100 . I was hoping it had the 312 Y block, but apparently i'm wrong, it's a 272.
Don't have any 312 engines on the drawing board at this time
okay, thanks. Also will the bell housing from a 272 be the same bolt pattern as the 352 so i could swap my trany
hi there i would like to know what is the 351 modified is it the Windsor motor as i have a 302 Winsor in my 1989 f150 4x4 and got to replace the motor in the next 6 months and can you Cleveland motor be set up for unleaded fuel heads.
351/400M is a tall deck Clevo big block. Nothing to do with a Windsor. Apart from 3" mains!
Hello is 351m bell housing bolt pattern same as 351 windsor an cann u put a c6 4x4 on both engines
No and no the 351 M and 400 have big block bellhousing except for a very very small amount of them , so small they don't count
And I have 351 windsor what would u run in 78 bronco. Ty running my 351 modified now
ik heb ook en 400 M in mijn sportsroef 1972 wat kan ik het beste doen om de vermogen op te schroeven ik heb nu e twe barel 2150 carburateur op zitten wat raad je mijn aan thanks Tonie vrom holand gr.
could you show me where the casting numbers are on the 302 ford motor and maybe explain them please. getting ready to pull the 302 on my sons 81 mustang which was originaly a 4 cylinder car think you.
I would like to know this as well. I purchased a 302 that apparently is a Mexican Block (higher nickel content, stronger ... for boost...). Can you verify the markings that prove its a Mexican block?
Look for "HECHO EN MEXICO" on the Lifters valley...also the main caps are bigger than either a 289 or std 302...Block Identified by casting numbers C8AM-B, 75ZY-AA, D1ZM-AA, among others, above the starter....but basically if it says MEXICO in the lifters valley it is a Mexican 302, if it doesn't, it is not.
The Mexican blocks say made in Mexico on them
Thanks guys, I have heard of a few ways but the lifter valley seems to be the most consistent answer.
thanks for the great vids, looking forward to more SBF in the future.
E Gibson Yepper...I've been around enough 289's, HIPO 289's, 302's, Boss 302's to be able to look at the main caps and tell what I'm looking at but the lifter valley is the sure fire way to ident a Mexican 302...btw I would hope you wouldn't over value the Mexican 302...it is just marginally stronger and also weighs more so in today's world I wouldn't consider it for any type of real heavy duty (i.e. High performance) operation...they were more valuable back in the day when they were the best option available for additional block/mains strength when hot rodding a 289/302, but obviously that isn't the case anymore.
@Myvintageiron7512 can you confirm that a 351m/400 heads will bolt on a 351w? and if so are there other parts that need to be changed? will the OEM 5.8 intake manifold work?
I was not aware the FE blocks were called Y-Blocks. I thought the Ford only made a few Y-blocks such as the 272 that was in my '57 F100, 292, and 312 that was in the Fords.. Not including the Lincoln or Merc.
FEs were an upgrade on the Y block. Same basic infrastructure. But FEs were far more modern in the head design.Y blocks were 232 272 and 292. And the 332 was a bit of both. Smallest FE I feel was 252? I dont know these engines near as well as Clevo and M engines. Or Windsors. The 429-460 are too an xtent a big boss 302! And are NOT FEs!
I'm going to build a 400 ford and was wondering if the main caps can be machined for a 4 bolt main caps m
Yes
could you show the difference between a 351c 2v head and a 4v head ? I think I have a 351c m-code in my mustang but I'm not shore
externally the 4V on the front is the only way. Though a 4V will always come with a 4bbl intake and a large carby.
Take the intake off and the intake ports are way bigger than a 2V. Too large!
There is 4v open and closed chamber engines, about 10cc different in volume. And all 4Vs have larger valves which like the ports are too big. For decades people have been fitting those heads with tongues on the intakes to try and get some velocity through the port.
Any suggestions on what heads and cam to go with to make decent power with the 351 m? Or any other suggestions thanks.
I have a ??,, can a AODE transmission work with a 351 Windsor? I have a 302 engine in my truck but would like to swap it to a 351,I that possible? Thanks in advance
Yea it should work
Thanks
do they make a 6 icnh rod and piston combo for the H.O. 302? i can't find any, i'm guess they would be custom, thanks
I'm not aware of a 6" rod for a 302 I wouldn't run that long of a rod anyway the rod ratio would be to high for that short stroke it would hurt your torque
@@Myvintageiron7512 it would rpm happy 2.0. you can't get any better for zippy!
Australian 302ci Clevelands came with six inch rods !
Great video brother I have 351m in all 3 of my Fords.
( 78 Bronco Ranger XLT) (78 F150 Ranger XLT)
(78 F250 Custom) All 4x4
Good to know I can up the transmission on them!
Got the 78 same model same engine
It’s my understanding an 4spd eod tranny will bolt right up
Going to rebuild it one day
Going this route
www.garysgaragemahal.com/351m-and-400.html
And or maybe this
www.hotrod.com/articles/how-to-build-ford-351-cleveland/?fbclid=IwAR2bwMeMmCwVLa3MeAsCG0JklmM4KaMMUALShaaqFQQ4-UIsPh_F-ucQG00
Or
www.tmeyerinc.com/engine-builds/
What mods have you done if any
The hot rod article was just published 1-2019
@@peterpiper_203 I got the 1980 bronco with the 351M
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Right
On
Check the links I posted some good ideas right there
I just got a 71 mustang, turns out a 351m is in it.
If you use the 2v closed chamber heads the compression raises to 10,75,1.is that to much for a 400?I hear you need to run 96 octaine plus or they can pre detinate?
RUN EM OM LPG cant get higher octane then that
You mean “pre ignition”, gas ⛽️ doesn’t detonate( super sonic) it burns (sub sonic). Explosives detonate.
You've covered the 302 & 351W's and 302 &351C's and the 351M and mentioned the Boss and the FE and the Y block now as I remember there was another OHV Ford V8...As I remember it had 5 bellhousing bolt holes...Early Mustang 289's may be.?..Not sure 'bout that or was it the 260.?..
Early 260/289 Mustangs and Y blocks used 5 bolt b/h. That is the easy way to pick cheaters for GpN b in Australia.
The 5 bolt bellhousing is the six cylinder style but used on 221ci Windsor's , 260ci Windsor's and early 289ci Windsor's !
The reason the 400 had the style engine mounts and bellhousing bolt pattern, the engine was designed to replace the 390 FE engine in the full size cars. The mounts were designed to fit into the same location as the 460. This made it easy to install ether a 460 or a 400 using the same frame mount and transmission. Ford didn't intend the 400 to be used as a small block replacement!
Correct, One year they were drilled small Windsor pattern for one model of car. The 351/400M are big blocks. Use C6 normally. I would like a 4 speed auto but nothing fits the block to my knowledge, or not here in Oz anyway.
Cause the 390 did not meet emissions laws for 1977 1976 and early model light duty trucks had the 390 as a option then 1977 and later trucks 390 was replaced by 351M and 400 and a stick shift transmission was an option but in the full size cars with these engines only had the automatic.
this 302 came out of a ltaer model mustang. All I know as of now. Bought it through a friend who is selling everything he owns. It can work but, is the best choice for a 66 Bronco, that I am not interrested in a Coyote 5.0. In other words would a 351 Windsor be a much better choice? Also are there complete conversion parts for sale as they are for the earlier engnes. This engine must be much different from the 302 that was a Bronco engine in 69. I'm trying to learn knowing nothing much about engines, torque, etc.
not really much different at all it will bolt up to the engine mounts and transmission uses a different balancer and flex plate
Hello I have question 289 and 302 I build 289 but block said 302 can’t you tell me the diferente thanks....
302 W has 3 inch stroke and 289 W has 2.87 inch stroke , that's the difference
loving the Ford stuff. More 385 please. Have a 460 in a bronco and will be hitting you up in the near future for a rebuild...
Cool
can you build a 351m or 400 ford for more performance? if so, what sort of parts/heads/cam for a Bronco? Thanks
Yes in fact the block you see in this video is going to be a new series higher compression and Clevland heads
nice, looking forward to that.
Jay Groom also any camshaft designed for 351C fits in 351M/400. So there are lots of options.
oh, I didn't know that. THanks
the canted valve modified or Cleveland is in my opinion superior to Windsor motors any way you measure when power is the goal.
I have a 56 F100 272 and wondering which engine i could swap to that would mount the same trany/bellhousing.
312
I will keep following , hoping you will do 427,428,429 fords
What heads & cam would it take for a 351 to have peak power over 7k and 570hp?
351M will not live long if it;s twisted to 7K not recommended
Did they have any modifieds with 4 bolt mains? It looks like the mains are wide enough to bolt 4 bolts into the block bridges.
nope
Hey quick question for you. My son and I are doing a ‘77 F150 4x4 project together. Stock motor is is a 351M but I want to swap it over to ‘87 5.0 HP. I know the actual engine mounts are different from 351/400 to 302/5.0 motors but what about the frame engine mounts will I need to make any modifications? Thanks Jeff
it depends some of the frames were drilled some were not its kind of a crap shoot with fords
351 windsor 600 cfm eddelbrock .30 over runs good but rear main leaks a little second set of rope seals used what can i do.
don't use a rope seal
Have the rear main machine for a one piece seal
If a person were to build a car would they want to go with a 351W or a 351M... I've got a stock 351M from 1977 as well but my 1970 cougar came with the 351W, fitting isnt a problem but modifying it to be a nice little runner what would you say?
Go with the W engine
I really appreciate your knowledge..you've answered a few constant thoughts...my only problem/concerns are which is easier to install in a 1998 Lincoln Town Car, and I am guessing the 351 makes more horsepower over the 302....🤔 ?
negative the 1998 lincoln town car had a 4.6 not and older 351w or 351m or 351c 302 and if you want a direct bolt in motor with allot of power look for a 4v Lincoln mark 8 type motor or a 4v later cobra motor ..600hp easy if built correctly
@@dexter2433 Thanks for the reply, but that's the whole purpose of choosing a older motor.. I am trying to get away from the PCM/Computer, sensors, and expensive tunning.... I was hoping to hear, direct bolt on, or slightly modifi to fit
is a later model mustang 302 engine a good choice for a 66 Bronco? Also the big block fe engines are truck engines, Correct?
you can use a later 302 in an early car but there are a few differences the FE was used in cars and trucks
What year did any of the 351 engines start using ECM/PCM , and is a stroker engine kit availabe for a 351 M ?
mid 80's for ECU yes the 400 crank is a stroker crank
Was that an original timing cover? I had a '77 351M and it wasn't a flat plate.
Awesome video, not sure if you have another video on putting 4v Cleveland heads on a 400 the do's and dont's, see I have been doing a lot of reading on blogs and such and I have found myself still wondering about what I can do, I am my own worst enemy and kick ass at wasting money and have a shit ton of parts on my shelves from ways that didn't work on other projects anyhow what can I do to put 4v Cleveland heads on my 400 and hey is it worth it like I'm not going to change the cam just heads and 4v intake I'm thinking it would be a low bang for the buck unless you tell me other wise thanks great videos btw you've help me through all the bullshit and puss people try to feed me
you need to upgrade the cam and valve train for those heads
k thanks
David Freiburger was saying there is a stroker engine you can build from a custom block, known as the 1A (or it could be vice versa) there is so much roadkill / motortrend / DF material out there just on here , I would never find it! . But it has the size of the 260 / 289 blocks, but you can make bore / stroke combinations safely up into the 420 size while maintaining the smaller early block outside dimensions. I wonder if anyone here knows which block I am on about, as it's from Kaase or some other custom manufacturer.. But seriously, a 351 is a huge engine for what size it actually is ... just look at it in a bay fully assembled compared to a chevy 350 or LS .. GIANT! .. the 429 is actually not much bigger as it is in the same class of engine (Windsor) , just have a look!
what is the rod length on the 351M? my 351w is 5.95"
6.580
If anyone is confused there is a 351m motor but they did come in a 6.6l 400ci variation. I would check the valve cover it should tell you. I got lucky and got a 400ci, I plan to bore it .30 over which would make it from what I was told by formula 408.178. But who cares about the .178 I'm getting a 408 with a .30 over bore, good pistons, heads,cam,rockers,intake, get the compression to 10 to 1 or higher and that "dog" of a motor will run. One quick question I have is it the exact same size as a Windsor or Cleveland? I believe them to be just not 100% sure.
daniel johnson so if my engine says 351m/400 it's 400ci?
Sanity it could be check out the valve cover it should tell you your engine's displacement
The aluminium timing cover water ports hmmm maybe a thin steel sleeve could be put in there ? to stop corrosion?
Just change the antifreeze every few years so it doesn't get acidic and there is no problem!
you solved so many doubts, almost nobody explains this in Spanish ( if you are curious I have a 1979 F100 Ranger supercab short bed 351M manual transmission RWD
Very informative video brother thanks for the info about to start restoring a 78 f-100
I just got a 351M for free complete, but I do not know its inside condition yet could be good could be bad find of this weekend.
how can you tell the difference between 351m and a 400 in the car?
shyboyangelus As far as I know, you can't without taking a head off and measuring stroke. The 351m/and 400m have the same blocks. It's the crank that makes the difference. 3.50 vs 4.00. Just a technical fyi. 4in. stroke by 4in. bore is actually 402 cubic inches. Just for shits and giggles.
@@thesixgunfighter288rule of thumb is , if you have a 4 inch bore on a V8 the length of stroke is very close to the cubic inch displacement of the motor !
@@JosephCowen-ru7up You’re not wrong, 3.58/Mopar LA/Mag 360, 3.48/Chevy 350, 3.25/Chevy 327, and so on
@myvintageiron I have a 351m and the valve cover said 351m 400ci .. so it's a 400 right
Michael Anthony my 77 Ford F-250 read as this 6.6 liter /400-400M . My 70 F150 xlt read as this 351/400M . The 400 /400 M is the best ford work engine imho. No hi rpms tho. 600cfm 2 barrel stock . Great power and dependability and got a honest 16 mpg when running properly. The 79 1/2 ton with the 351/400M just didn’t have it compared to the 400/400M . It did have a 4 barrel and long tube headers with mad ignition and a red air filter. Didn’t matter tho that old stock 400M was a pure BEAST. My bro blew up my 79 “ not one dent or scratch btw” while out one night on a hot date . Don’t know how he did it but he blew a 13,000 dollar FORD RACING engine ( blue printed ) I bought it complete from a man who was just getting to know how married life goes, on the cheap. He spent a lot of hard earned tow boater money on that truck in the 10 years he was single. Spent 13,000 on the engine alone. It was built to the hilt still the stock 400M ate it for breakfast. Oh ya my younger brother spun the mains on that “ racing engine” on his second run . Still won . But blew my hi dollar 79 up. I tried to blow that 400m stock engine up for 8 years and could not do it. It eventually ate up the oil rings to the point I had to clean every plug in the engine per day of work. Otherwise it would not start. Good ol ford she was. And I doubled my money on the 79 with the mains spun . That conveniences me there is something different besides 1 1/2 years of production. I want to put one in a Mercury Cougar from the 90’s but I don’t think it fits .
Not necessarily.
the label says engine family 351m/400. and will have another section that says engine size. either a 5.8 or 6.6.
5.8 is the 351m and the 6.6 is a 400.
I had a nasty 2.3 lima engine 4 banger, milled head, stainless steel valves, crane solid lifter cam half inch lift with around 260 degrees duration a four barrel split plane intake manifold with a 390 Holley going out a Hooker header into a glass pak around double the stock hp, as for rod length you can use chevy rods, aftermarket pistons etc.
can you explain the 351 modified 400
Got a 351M build on the drawing board
Please do a series on the 351m!
Still waiting for the 351m build