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The drop in EV sales in Germany following the halting of subsidies is compounded by a similar trend in the internal combustion engine (ICE) car market. When manufacturers end their year-end promotions and customers hold off on purchases until the next cycle, there’s a temporary dip in sales across the board. In the case of EVs, many Germans may be waiting for the return of subsidies, which could be influencing their decision to delay purchases. This creates a market lull where consumers, uncertain about future financial incentives, are holding back, which ultimately affects both EV and ICE sales. It underscores how important government support is in stabilizing and driving demand in the automotive market, especially in times of economic uncertainty.
And we are being told the EU are imposing levies on Chinese auto imports due to unfair subsidies, sounds like Germany is heavily subsidising their auto industry probably more than the Chinese, talk about a two-tier system!
Another aspect is the growing number of used EVs on the market! Five years ago I bought a brand new EV, because used cars were not available or outdated. Today you can get many young cars, for example from 2023 with low Km ( milage ) for a very attractive price. Even leasing of used cars is possible!
The government's unsustainable handouts created an imbalance of demand. Once that is removed, it creates a big void that takes time to fill aka rebalance itself. That and the high energy cost. The reaction would be the same if gasoline price spike significantly.
@@nguyep4 You’re absolutely right-these subsidies were not just about boosting EV adoption but also about propping up a car industry that has been caught flat-footed by China’s aggressive EV strategy. Traditional manufacturers, particularly in Europe, ignored the geopolitical and market shift driven by China’s investment in EV infrastructure, battery technology, and mass production. This lack of foresight, coupled with a refusal to develop truly compelling EV products, has left them scrambling to maintain economies of scale and keep their products competitive. Herbert Diess of Volkswagen Group warned about this exact scenario, urging the industry to adapt quickly to the threat posed by Chinese automakers, but his concerns were largely dismissed. Now, as subsidies are pulled back, the structural weaknesses of Europe’s traditional automakers are being laid bare, leaving them vulnerable in a market increasingly dominated by more agile and forward-thinking competitors. The fallout from ignoring this strategic shift is becoming painfully clear.
The problem with car sales is not so much about 'subsidies' or not. The problem is: Planing certainty So if you pump subsidies suddenly in the market and then suddenly remove subsidies from the market and repeat this on and on ...this kills the market for buyers and producers.
In addition to what you say the choice of smaller cheaper cars whether they are EV or ice is practically non-existent. German manufacturers in particular have all gone for the lucrative high ground. That’s a tough market to sell into when everyone’s trying to do the same thing.
German here, 3 reasons: 1) We are in deep recession, most can't afford sh*t. 2) There is almost no charging infrastructure and the energy costs are the worlds highest. 3) Germany is a renters nation, homeownership is non existent. Unless you own a solar array and can charge at home, owning an EV is complete nonsense here.
2) Bullshit: The charging infrastructure in absolute numbers is the second largest in europe ...around 120.000. In relative numbers (145/1000 citizen), it is in the international middle of the international field. 3) Bullshit: The quote of homeownership is about 46 % ...this is low end, but it obviously exists. EV costs are lower than fossil ones: In Germany too. The "reason", why Germany is lacking behind is: Bullshitters like you
That is why Germany needs the Aptera concept (solar charging). The German government ("wir schaffen das") has not worked on the electricity grid and charging stations, shame on them! Volkswagen is the preferred brand in Germany, I hope VW embraces the latest EV developments, like the 'deep drive dual rotor' motor, etc, etc....
The EV incentive was cut due to ideolocigal believe in balancing the federal budget. The actual reason is probably much more along the lines of what you said in the sense that Germans really liked their big ICE engine SUV in the 2010s and German car manufacturers milked that cow instead of transitioning fast enough to EV. In 2017 VW planned to have 16 EV factories by now in Germany - it's actually around 3, with some of them only partially building EVs. Seeing batteries as commodities that can just be bought instead of seeing its research and production as a key competitive advantage now and in the upcoming years was another management strategy mistake. The most likely new conservative government to be elect want to stop "banning ICE" according to their campaign although there is no ban, the EU simply set the CO2 limits for new cars (over all new sales in average) at over the years increasing values that cannot be fulfilled with ICE vehicles. It's a bit like saying you want to ditch the unsporty people ban in soccer when in fact unsporty people just do not meet the requirements to compete. My assumption is car manufacturers and politician see how the market is shifting in China and the only thing keeping German car manufacturers alive are ICE sales. So therefore German's are fed the narrative EVs are bad to salvage a certain amount of ICE sales in the hope it gives German car manufacturers time to catch up in the EV space and become competitive again in China. But the rate in which new German EVs are coming out is too slow, the software is bad and faulty and battery range wise they are behind the Chinese. Most Germans are unaware what happens in China in terms of EV sales, technological advancements etc. and they will experience rough wake up calls when the CO2 price for fuel will be freely traded from 2027 onward by certificates in the EU (currently it is still fixed by regulatory means) - which will make fuel substantially more expensive plus in 2030 the CO2 emission levels that cannot be fulfilled by ICE. Plus with one of the oldest and tech avoiding population in the world (still using fax machines, paper applications for everything are still king) they just see a "Smartphone" as too complicated compared to a "Nokia 3210" to use you analogy.
I think it may be mostly due to so much of their economy being based on the car industry. They fear changing it because it has worked so long for them, but not changing it will ruin the industry too. This is very human... it is like having to decide whether you want to undertake a very tricky surgery that might kill you on the operating table but without it you will probably slowly die... exactly when is uncertain. What do you do?
Interestingg comments about Germany. I've been buying ( Australia ) very high priced German cars all my life. I've just sold my last one. I've found a new way to travel swiftly, silently and economically, and without the stunningly complicated mechanicals of an advanced ICE engine and transmission. Having Solar is the key I think. Anyway, to each their own.....
A very good summary. Sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and fix things on the way down. The German auto industry are right on the cliff edge right now.
@@aspiringm I think VW really needs to be building their own batteries in the same way they build their own engines for ICE cars. You won’t get far buying in batteries from another company in the long term - too much money leave# your product for an outside company. It’s ok at the start, but you need to make your own to keep costs down in the longer term. Not sure VW has the money to invest in battery production though. They may be trapped.
No. This is nonsense: Germany's electricity prices are average, expensive is in south-east Europe (everything south and east behind the alps). For the facts: day ahead prices for electricity 2024 for (mean over 1 year): Nordish countries: 23 - 50 East countries: > 100 South countries: > 100 France, Spain: 58, 63 Germany: 79 (all in €/mWh) source: energy charts info
@@michaelmueller96353x times have increased the last 3 years. But salaries not. So yes, electricity is extremely expensive in Germany. And because of exactly vegetable communism.
@@michaelmueller9635 That’s good info. I’m surprised there’s that much of a discrepancy between countries. I can see how that could affect someone’s purchase choice.
It’s nothing to do with EVs, the fact is no one is buying new cars! Demand has dropped by a third since 2017 and that’s bounced up after the pandemic. The vast majority of new cars are company purchases or lease. The average new price for a car in the UK is £40k, there are EVs above and below this price as there are ICE, the fact is people are prioritising where they spend there money!
Greetings from Germany. Just looking at the sales rankings for EVs in the month of November. The top four models are German with the Model Y coming in fifth place. Of the twenty most sold models, sixteen are German. This has been going on for several months now.
Here in the UK December figures show the model Y as the best selling car and the model three is the best selling car. Tesla out sold Toyota. Global manufacturers need to look at global figures.
The Germans are like the Americans. These countries have been great in technology. But the people now seem to hold dear to their old technology and refuse to move to newer ones.
On top of this misinformation is going rampant here. Both in social media and traditional media. And let’s not forget our political parties. Most of them also despise EVs and want to stick ICE. Because they are deep in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry. EVs were also pushed by the green party which is deeply hated by most Germans. So EVs have become a political statement. With the heavy push towards right and far right EVs will not be a big thing in the next few years. Which is also applies to other right leaning EU countries, too.
16 tesla charging stations in my state. Any sizeable increase in EVs and its a gridlock. Zero tesla dealers. I dunno what people expect people to do. Its inevitable, but not here yet. Hybrids are wonderful. @@joergmaass
UK EV sales are not what you reported. Our market is being manipulated with pre registrations and petrol sales being rationed to meet Government targets.
You forgot to mention cobalt. You also forgot to mention that EV’s randomly drive off the road and run people over. Come on if you’re gonna make up stuff you might as well get imaginative with it.
Disagree with your theory about subsidies,UK only had EV subsidies for around 18 months the cost to the govt to support this was getting expensive as it took off, then stalled the market when it was withdrawn, the same thing happened when Solar panels were being encouraged, lots of solar installers went out of business, anyone see a link with auto industry. This 'massive' collapse of EV sales after subsidies just cements the fact that European legacy EV are way too expensive,
In both cases, the subsidies were to kickstart the market not be the market. There is still a very healthy industry in solar installation and now battery installation. As for electric vehicles. Sales in the UK have risen 58% in December alone. Tesla is out selling Toyota. What I will say is that Tesla is still the only large scale producer that actually believes in EV as a way forward. Everyone else (apart from the fast growing Chinese sector) is doing it through gritted teeth and it shows.
This is a natural reaction to people waiting for the Juniper to arrive. You can cherry pick figures all you like here is one go and check how much debt BMW is in then go and check how much debt Tesla is in you want to be sitting down when you check BMW and you want to be lying down when you check VW and you want to be in accident and emergency when you check Toyota.
There is one thing you maybe haven't considered about EV-s on Germany. It's very common in Germany to take relatively long inter-ciry car drives, 400-500 km on autobahns. And the minimum speed on 2nd lane is 170 km/h and this is more for Škodas and VW-s. Most of the BMW, MB-s and Audis Are on the 3rd lane with speeds well over 200 km/h. Taking in consideration EV-s efficiency in these speeds it would mean a recharging stop after every 2 hours of drive. Add very weak charging infrastructure next to the autobahns and there you have a solid reason. On top of course all that legacy manufacturers lobbied media and removal of government grants
Electric Viking, you missed an important point. The subsidies for electric cars made it possible to buy a new car in Germany and sell it after six months in another EU country, generating a profit. With the end of these subsidies, this practice has largely stopped. As a result, fewer cars are now being sold in Germany, while sales in other EU countries have increased.
Your comment is largely correct but needs some nuance. In 2023 the minimum ownership period was extended to 12 months. This alone diminished the returns for those taking a ride on the BAFA carousel. The cancellation of the eco subsidy did the rest. Just to put into perspective the scale of the abuse, more than 30% of all Tesla's newly registered in Germany in 2021 and 2022 are no longer in Germany. They're in the Netherlands and Denmark.
Is simple, the places that EV sales rises, buying an EV there dosen't cost an arm and a leg. In Europe they are still very expensive, even with subsidies.
It’s not just EV sales declining in Germany, it’s ALL auto sales as the German economy has flatlined and going through a major transition away from manufacturing, to design and engineering, as Britain did years ago.
UK here: EV prices here are bonkers although some cheaper units are coming on stream. Depreciation is almost cruel. Added to the high list price there is the horrendous 'Car Tax' that can add thousands to the cost when the showroom prices exceeds £40K (79.4K AUD). Most EVs are sold or leased to businesses rather than private/domestic owners. Home charging is fine but many UK homes are not suited with no off street parking. Non Tesla charging points can be asking high prices and you can need so many different Apps on your mobile (cell) for all the different providers, it can drive you mad.
90% of all new cars in the UK of any drivetrain are leased. It isn’t just EV. You are also conflicting lease purchases with business purchases they are not the same thing. This is why the SMMT separates it out. You are also confusing cost with value. Try specifying a BMW3 series that approaches a base Tesla model three and see how much it’s going to cost you.
Obviously you don't live in Germany, otherwise you would know the facts. Electricity prices: Germany's electricity prices are average, expensive is in south-east Europe (everything south and east behind the alps). For the facts: day ahead prices for electricity 2024 for (mean over 1 year): Nordish countries: 23 - 50 East countries: > 100 South countries: > 100 France, Spain: 58, 63 Germany: 79 (all in €/mWh) source: energy charts info Charging: Germany got the second most charging points in the EU: 120.625 In relative numbers these are 145 Charging points/1000 citizen, this is international mid-field. The number of charging points, that did increase from 2023 to 2024: 41 % Just go with the facts.
@@michaelmueller9635 I live in Russia, according to our media you have all died from cold in 2022), but the day ahead prices are not for consumers - we have like 10-20 euros per megawatt price the day ahead in Russia and 40-90 euro end price in the electric plug at home. So in Germany end price can be way higher than day ahead.
I do know that the wholesale price for electricity in Germany is around 70 euros per mWh, or 7 euro cents per kW. I don't know what households pay though.
It’s not just Germany, Uk has also dropped they only look good because manufactures preregistered them to save on the fines for not hitting the 22% target. Don’t forget once we all have an EV the fad will be to stop the mining for materials, Lithium for batteries and especially copper for all the charging cables. So stop spouting on about how great an EV is. EV’s are great for small journeys but not long ones so let’s ban cars over 2.0l engine size and live in harmony with both EV and ICE.
When I had company cars in the 1980s there was already huge taxis put on anything over 2 L which is why everything ended up being a 2 L turbo. The auto industry will always get around it no matter what you do. The real problem is Younger buyers are not interested in internal combustion. Your existing buyers are dying simply due to age. The young will not be denied their future simply because the old wish to cling onto their past.
The uk sales are mostly driven by company and salary sacrifice tax saving schemes ( I have ordered a Tesla on one of these schemes) but without this incentive and Tesla sc network I wouldn’t have gone for it. I do about 400 miles a week and looking forward to getting the Tesla. From the comments charging infrastructure, subsidies and penalties are driving the market forces.
90% of all new cars sold in the UK are leased. One way or another almost all cars in the UK are not private buyers EV or otherwise. I don’t know why people keep making this point as if it’s important.
Uncertainty und high buying costs. Not enough compact options. The EV market is rapidly moving and EV prices are still sky high but expected to drop soon with pressure from Chinese manufacturers.
Everything you say may be correct, but don’t forget it also applies to internal combustion. All car prices are ridiculous. It doesn’t matter what the drivetrain is.
Germany is a good example of what happens when the playing field is somewhat levelled. NZ is only a minor market but the same is true. In the UK the overwhelming majority of BEV's are sold into company fleets and those owning company cars due to the tax incentives, take that away and.... We can't do much about the big advantage EV's have though, governments slowly banning ICE sales. BEV's are great for certain applications especially if you own your own place and can charge at home, but ICE is king for many others including heavy transport, shame we're going to have to go backwards.
@@ouethojlkjn No my post doesn't sound like that at all, it simply states what sector the majority of EV sales went to in the UK due to tax incentives. Look it up if you don't believe me
EV sales in Ireland crashed too. Initial prices high, charging infrastructure poor and re- sale values poor. When solid state is the norm, current EV' second hand values will be even worse. Do we all have to consider EV's are disposable products like a laptop or phone? Will there be 20 year old EV's going around like there are ICE cars. I doubt it.
Trade in value of EVs relative to Market value is scary in Ireland.Eg MG4 costs €34000 in October 2023,trade in value in December 2024 €22000.Yes EVs are gigantic phones.Own one and see their value tank.
@@dermotporter5280 Bought ours brand new for €29000 (incl delivery charge €1000), and they say cars depreciate 25% when you drive them out of the show room so I guess that's about right.
Have you seen the plastic rubbish that lives under an internal combustion engine bonnet these days? My mate just skipped his Mondeo after just 136,000 miles. Dead engine and it wasn’t even one of those nasty wet belts.
German governments and individuals who are working for or who have friends and family working for the ICE companies, see the end of the road for their livelihood, do you expect them to rush forward?
With ICE prices increasing and EV prices decreasing, a 2035 ban is pointless. Even by 2030 I expect an EV to be a simple choice in Europe. ICE manufacturers don't even try to delay the 2035 ban because the ban is not what is going to kill them.
Stop the 2035 or in UK 2030. If you want an EV have one if it’s not good for you then have an ICE car. It’s like being a child when your parents would say if you don’t eat your cabbage you can’t have any pudding.
@@PaulRendell-u1b Well if the ICE makers got off their buts and fixed the pollution bit then none of this wound be needed, but the aren't so they need a red hot poker up their but, and 2035 is just so off into the future.
I’d guess Germans are very proud of the automotive history. They should be. So now they’re hearing their BEVs are crap, and so they’re going with ICE or hybrids. Of course, what’s been getting the bad press is the software, which is just as bad in their ICE cars, so that logic doesn’t fly. That and their range and efficiency. As Herbert Deiss said, they just need to improve their BEv tech and manufacturing. Or they’re toast. Let’s go Germany!!
Yes, look at the VW ID Buzz, a smash hit almost, but it's too damn expensive and the battery is probably not good enough. That's the main problem, German cars are just too damn expensive.
The current charging and energy infrastructure simply is not there to support EVs, whether made locally or bought from China xD Energy prices are also crazy high too...
Sales throughout the whole of Europe were down 3%. The main reason sales are down is due to EV range issues, charging and horrific depreciation. Simple.
Horrific depreciation in the first 2-3 years only affects those in the habit of buying a new car every 2-3 years! People who buy a new car (EV or ICE) and hold on to it for 10-15-20+ years don't worry too much about depreciation because they know the car won't be worth much and/or will inevitably depreciate a lot by then regardless
WRONG AGAIN Viking. Ireland's 2024 EV sales were also 25% down on 2023. A terrible EV charging network, battery range execration, and high deprecation are the reasons for the decline. Germans are not buying EVs because a wind and solar policy has resulted in super expensive electricity, and the EV purchase subsidies were stopped. 80% of UK EV sales are to companies because company car users receive massive reductions in BIK tax when they drive an EV. The cost to the UK taxpayer of EV subsidies is many billions of Pounds.
Ireland is well-positioned to generate a LOT of offshore wind, and coastal nuclear. There's really no excuse for Eire not to have abundant electricity.
Not true. My electricity price is 27 ct per kWh in Germany, not much more compared to recent years. Solar and wind energy are reducing higher costs. Coal and gas are responsible for higher prices.
German OEMs made enormous profits in China for decades, but invested almost nothing into EV technology. Had they done so, Germany would own the entire EV space.
ev Sales correlate to 1) cost of vehicle and what financial incentives are given 2) charging infrastructure state I like this channel, but find the expectations on EV very optimistic. It will take years and governments will likely adjust policies to having only EV type car sales.
Most of Germany is not densely populated and a large portion of car owners can charge at home. Especially for EV's with a decent range, the charging infrastructure doesn't really matter if you rarely empty the battery in a day of driving. I'm in the more densely populated Netherlands and in more than a year have never used a Tesla super charger or any other public charger. There are buyers who depend on the charging infrastructure but I think there is a demand for EV's that doesn't depend on public charging infrastructure.
Europe: - EXTREME prices - NMC batteries - Low range - expensive "fast" charging Nobody wants EVs at the moment, they are just not practical to purchase.
Hearing the UK the cheapest nastiest petrol one series BMW is over £31,000 - just exactly where are all these incredibly cheap ice cars for sale? I have yet to find one.
Losing Chinese ICE sales to EVs made in China has killed all the legacy manufacturers. High % of income was from China. Not any more. To say nothing of how much better the Chinese EVs are made and how much they cost.
Germany used to export a lot of expensive ICE cars to China, but domestic Chinese EVs are now better quality with more features. Germany depends very heavily on exports, roughly 50% of German GDP. As China now competes strongly with Germany around the world, German revenues are collapsing. We could see major German economic collapse within 5 years.
It won't take that long at all, 2035 is just around the corner in automotive terms: they don't want to make EVs because they're not very profitable for them right now; but more and more people also don't want to buy new ICE cars because 2035 is approaching fast!... People can't afford €40.000+ EVs or are simply unwilling to pay that much money for a EV car, but they also don't want to pay €30-€40.000+ for low powered ICE cars have tiny engines to meet new 2025 emissions or Hybrids that are even more expensive to maintain than regular ICE cars... so something will have to give!... As far as I see it, most people will just keep buying used ICE cars for as long as possible, especially cheap ICE cars, until the 2035 EV fog clears up on which vehicle type will be more useless for sale: EV or ICE...
The germans have improved their EVs in recent years. Software was the biggest problem. Still not perfect but better now. VW is a good example. I think the ID.7 is a very good efficient car.
If people wouldn’t buy iPhones unless they were covered in buttons, then Apple would make iPhones covered in buttons. The legacy auto industry is not digging its heels in because it wants to support its long suffering customers. It is simply so it can make as much money as possible before it has to do the pivot anyway.
It’s all their own bloody fault! The German Car industry will die because of its ICE arrogance and EV incompetence, helped by the German government, which via the FDP, has allowed itself to be bribed by the combustion engine car industry to: 1. Reduce subsidies. 2. Allow the combustion engine car industry to continue to delay the development and production of good electric cars that are acceptable to customers. 3. To even discuss the combustion engine ban that the EU has already decided on and 4. To babble about "technology openness".
Germany! start taxing Gasoline and Diesel cars more now! Increase yearly payment on ICE cars or Start adding registration tax on them! That's what Norway, Denmark, Sweden, UK and China are doing, And these countries see big increase in EV-sales. There are not much EV incentives in Germany!
Greetings from Denmark. The coming president of USA, is pissing us off with a possible special military operation. By affiliation Elon is getting some of that PR as well. This sort of behavior may overrule the price and technical advantages Tesla have and give European cars a chance. Even the fossil burning kind. Of course we are allies with USA, but the friendship is getting tense. Not sure how Elons political PR campaign in Germany is going.
Nothing wrong with them. In Norway 2024 total sales of VAG cars were almost as high as Tesla, even more if you add VW Buzz and Transporter - and in addition both BMW and Mercedes are in the top 20 list. The new VW ID.7 is a superb car, perhaps the best bang for the bucks right now. Only one, single Chinese car was in the top 20 list in 2024.
@@TTTT-oc4eb 2 minutes ago @hansweissmann_xviii6754 says the Chinese bot. Because I dislike the 1990's look of the ID 7? How much does an ID 7 go for? Starting at 60k Euros? While you are promoting it like it's your baby? C'mon M8, never heard of hypocrisy, have you? Btw, ID 4 is also a joke, so is ID 3. Yeah, earn your troll fee......
@@hansweissmann_xviii6754 In Norway the ID.7 starts at 44K Euros. The top model, GTX Tourer, starts at 51K Euros. I got my seven month old demo car, with "everything" included, for 35K Euros. And yes, I have tried other EVs, and they don't come close. Both the ID.3, 4/5 and 7 are in the top 10 list in Norway, together with the Skoda Enyaq. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are all in the top 20 list. Of Chinese cars, only the MG4 are in the top 20. Nobody in Western democracies should by Chinese cars, anyway.
The UK ended EV subsidies a few years back, they're still selling well without them. In the UK it's ICE sales that are in decline, although the market grew overall last year this was solely down to EVs, in particular BEVs that outgrew PHEVs and HEVs combined by 38%. The issue is car prices have increased beyond what the market is willing to support. ICE have been impacted by this for years cars with production of smaller more affordable models stopped at the same time. However, some of the automakers are reintroducing smaller car models this year again, in BEV form. We'll have to wait till later in the year to see if that is sufficient to turn the tide on their fortunes.
@GruffSillyGoat about 80% of EV sales in the UK are fleet or businesses or work schemes and the government provides very generous tax incentives to do so. in addition EVs have been paying ZERO tax so far. On the other hand government has severely penalised the purchase of ICE through increased taxation. Uk is also different to European EV markets so not a relevant comparison. Europe has imposed tariffs on Chinese EVs whereas then Uk not.
VAT is applied on BEVs, the *T* in the name is a bit of a clue that they are taxed. Plus from this year, VED will apply as well to BEVs the relief was always known to be temporary, yet some ICE cars continue to enjoy low and indeed zero VED taxation. With regards to 80% of EV 'sales' (namely registrations) being fleet, the majority of all fuel-type new car registrations are 'fleet' and not 'private' segement sales these days. The private segment has been shrinking for years, and particlularly over the last five years as people are holding onto cash and cannot afford expensive bank or personal loans to buy cars; the segment is now down to only 38% of the market. Also, you are aware as the government pointed out to the industry body recently that a high proportion of fleet 'sales' are via salary sacrifice meaning they are private vehicle registrations, plus the 80% figure also includes personal leased vehicles that are again private registrations. The 'fleet' segment is defined by the industry body as _‘leasing/contract hire and fleet other’,_ it includes private use of vehicles where the vehicle is owned by a leasing company but the individual is the 'registered keeper' (pcp, lease hire, hire purchase etc.). How is the UK different to other European EV markets, Norway has a similar high level of EV sales, as does Sweden and France. Indeed the outlier this year is Germany, which saw a drop in EV sales. The UK has always been included in the European comparisons and overall territory market figures, and will continue to be so. I suspect you're mixing up Europe with EU, there are a number of European countries outside the EU that don't employ the EU's car tariffs.
People who post this kind of comment constantly forget how much subsidy is given to the petrochemical industry. Why is one subsidy wrong and the other subsidy right?
For 25-30.000 euro I can find a hybrit Golf or A3, why would I buy a full electric vehicle? You can call me oldschool but for me and for lots of people full electric is still not the right choice.
Hybrid is a car I would never buy. Why charge a car that only has 30 to 50 km range and always think about charging or only driving higher weight around. I saw a change back in 2021 and sold my Audi A4 for rent a Tesla and after 6 months ordered my model 3 LG. I dont look back I just like it.
Since there aren't enouh teslas sold, vw just have to lower prices on evs to avoid thousands of euros of penalties per ice car sold. Per chatgpt calc it should be about $1000 per car sold. To get the average numbers down they would have to sell about 10% less non-evs and instead replace those with evs. So they could subsidize ev sales with €5000 euros, per ev car, instead of wasting it on tesla, and pay no penalties (meaning their total cost is half of what it would be paying penalties) assuming that should allow them to sell that many more evs. I say sell more evs, buster. They could also simply raise the non-ev prices by 1000, that alone would result in more ev sales at no cost to them, just transferring the ice penalty to the consumer. I have no problem either with that.
I think that in the UK it's maxed out. I base this on the fact that the UK pre-registered BEVs in December, and they have to find buyers for all these in the new year before they even begin to register new 2025 sales. And car makers are unlikely to be able to shoulder another £4.5 billion in discounts like they did in 2024 - so prices will likely increase again.
Chinese NEV sales will grow by 3, possibly 4 million, from 11 million NEVs to at least 14-15 million. This is on top of 3 million NEV sales growth in 2024, from 8 million NEVs in 2023. NEVs were only about 40% of Chinese sales, so they could eventually hit 25 million in due time.
Sales is one thing profit is another. You want to be sitting down when you check how much debt Toyota is in. And VW. And BMW. In fact, just go check them all it’s a horror story.
First some commenters are giving reasons why I will center in WTF, you are giving false data. Car sales in Germany, albeit 1% down, were 2,8mm vehicles. The UK market is only 1,95mm. I guess BEV in the UK were 1.361 more than Germany. PURE MISINFORMATION.
Comparison sums don't work like that, you have to account for decline as well as growth in the respective markets - the UKs in 2025 being 2.6% growth overall all due to EVs, with pure-ICE in decline. In the UK the sales of ICE models declined, all of the year for diesel, down -13.6% overall, and the last nine months of the year for petrol, down -4.4% overall. Whereas EVs grew, BEVs up 21.4%, PHEVs up 18.3% and HEVs up 9.6% with BEVs selling the largest volume of the three (growth volume 38% higher than HEV and PHEV's combined). For the full year pure-ICE shrunk to 58.5% of the market (1142k) whilst EVs grew to 41.5% of the market (830k), with BEVs being 382k of that growth.
@GruffSillyGoat One can analyse data to sell a POV. My comment was directed at the statement that Germany was not the largest car market in Europe which it is. Also, analysing your data is correct that ICE declined in the UK and all growth due to EV's, which it is. But the all the decline in Germany is also due to EV's. There are many reasons why in Germany it is so and best to ask someone that lives there as I am in Spain. In Spain BEV grew 4% but the overall market grew 7% so no good news here either. And I will add I do own an EV so not a denier.
@@elmojito - I wasn't claiming you were a 'denier', or made any reference to yourself personally. Rather I was commenting that comparisons cannot be drawn at superficial levels, like that in your original post, that detail is important for context.
Ok.....first of all I (a German) don't want to be forced to do anything with MY money. 2. Even small EVs (if they existed anyway) are too expensive in relation. And small cars with a big reach are very rare and even more expensive. 3. Infrastructure! It seems that almost everyone here lives in an owned single house with solar panels on their roofs. Well....guess what: Most people don't! I live in a multi-family-building with a parking garage and pay rent. There's not a single wallbox in our garage and I'm pretty sure my landlord won't be installing one in the near future. The infrastructure in general Germany (public spaces) is progressing and improving. 3. People in my town (5000) are not even sure if our power grid would be ok with too many EVs. 😬 4. How long will the batteries be ok to use and what is it gonna take to renew them? More than the car's worth?🤷🏼♂️ 5. Where do the used,old batteries go? 6. Oh.....oh.......here it comes! 😬 Is it really gonna help the planet's climate in such massive way if all this electrification takes place in this short period of time and not on a longer progress? 🤷🏼♂️ I honestly don't know.
1. Do you not pay taxes in Germany? 2. Chinese EVs of Honda quality start around $11,000 USD 3. Chinese garages and parking lots have had plenty of EV charging installed, not hard to create a shared EV charger subsidy 3. You could always import cheap Russian gas or restart your nuclear power plants 4. modern batteries will be 80% good after 15+ years, so they'll outlast a BMW or Mercedes 5. they can go into grid storage to flatten wind & solar generation. The US and China are using HUGE batteries to store solar power that is released after sunset 6. Chinese air quality massively improved as they shifted from oil and coal to wind and solar. Every little bit helps, sooner than later
Nope, Germany has No "Green government", its Not even the biggest party in the collaboration. the green party is also not to blame here, as they were forced to cut the subventions because the other parties did not want to spend any more money on it. If you look for someone to blame, Look at the conservatives and neo-liberals and tons of misinformation on the internet.
I think it's better to have the customer pay the fine than the automakers. That will do more to promote EV sales. Instead of gas guzzler tax it should be for any vehicle with a tailpipe. Consumers are paying obscene amounts of money for cars already the fine at a "per car" basis is a non issue. That would also make customers aware the automakers are having to pay the fine. This way they don't have to pay Tesla money and stand a better chance of improving.
I think the US is going to shock the world in 2025 when EV sales actually stay stable or even rise a bit even after Federal Subsidies end soon. The momentum here is definitely increasing and used EV sales are through the roof due to people taking advantage of depreciated inventory. The channels are stuffed full with stories about how today’s ICE engines are totally unreliable even from Toyota, and how used ICE cars are increasingly in poorer and poorer condition crapping out soon after purchase.
It’s all their own bloody fault! The German Car industry will die because of its ICE arrogance and EV incompetence, helped by the German government, which via the FDP, has allowed itself to be bribed by the combustion engine car industry to: 1. Reduce subsidies. 2. Allow the combustion engine car industry to continue to delay the development and production of good electric cars that are acceptable to customers. 3. To even discuss the combustion engine ban that the EU has already decided on and 4. To babble about "technology openness".
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The drop in EV sales in Germany following the halting of subsidies is compounded by a similar trend in the internal combustion engine (ICE) car market. When manufacturers end their year-end promotions and customers hold off on purchases until the next cycle, there’s a temporary dip in sales across the board. In the case of EVs, many Germans may be waiting for the return of subsidies, which could be influencing their decision to delay purchases. This creates a market lull where consumers, uncertain about future financial incentives, are holding back, which ultimately affects both EV and ICE sales. It underscores how important government support is in stabilizing and driving demand in the automotive market, especially in times of economic uncertainty.
And we are being told the EU are imposing levies on Chinese auto imports due to unfair subsidies, sounds like Germany is heavily subsidising their auto industry probably more than the Chinese, talk about a two-tier system!
Another aspect is the growing number of used EVs on the market!
Five years ago I bought a brand new EV, because used cars were not available or outdated. Today you can get many young cars, for example from 2023 with low Km ( milage ) for a very attractive price. Even leasing of used cars is possible!
The government's unsustainable handouts created an imbalance of demand. Once that is removed, it creates a big void that takes time to fill aka rebalance itself. That and the high energy cost. The reaction would be the same if gasoline price spike significantly.
@@nguyep4 You’re absolutely right-these subsidies were not just about boosting EV adoption but also about propping up a car industry that has been caught flat-footed by China’s aggressive EV strategy. Traditional manufacturers, particularly in Europe, ignored the geopolitical and market shift driven by China’s investment in EV infrastructure, battery technology, and mass production. This lack of foresight, coupled with a refusal to develop truly compelling EV products, has left them scrambling to maintain economies of scale and keep their products competitive.
Herbert Diess of Volkswagen Group warned about this exact scenario, urging the industry to adapt quickly to the threat posed by Chinese automakers, but his concerns were largely dismissed. Now, as subsidies are pulled back, the structural weaknesses of Europe’s traditional automakers are being laid bare, leaving them vulnerable in a market increasingly dominated by more agile and forward-thinking competitors. The fallout from ignoring this strategic shift is becoming painfully clear.
The problem with car sales is not so much about 'subsidies' or not. The problem is: Planing certainty
So if you pump subsidies suddenly in the market and then suddenly remove subsidies from the market and repeat this on and on ...this kills the market for buyers and producers.
In addition to what you say the choice of smaller cheaper cars whether they are EV or ice is practically non-existent. German manufacturers in particular have all gone for the lucrative high ground. That’s a tough market to sell into when everyone’s trying to do the same thing.
German here, 3 reasons:
1) We are in deep recession, most can't afford sh*t.
2) There is almost no charging infrastructure and the energy costs are the worlds highest.
3) Germany is a renters nation, homeownership is non existent. Unless you own a solar array and can charge at home, owning an EV is complete nonsense here.
2) Bullshit: The charging infrastructure in absolute numbers is the second largest in europe ...around 120.000.
In relative numbers (145/1000 citizen), it is in the international middle of the international field.
3) Bullshit: The quote of homeownership is about 46 % ...this is low end, but it obviously exists.
EV costs are lower than fossil ones: In Germany too.
The "reason", why Germany is lacking behind is: Bullshitters like you
The charging infrastructure in DC charging is good
That is why Germany needs the Aptera concept (solar charging). The German government ("wir schaffen das") has not worked on the electricity grid and charging stations, shame on them! Volkswagen is the preferred brand in Germany, I hope VW embraces the latest EV developments, like the 'deep drive dual rotor' motor, etc, etc....
Main reason is subsidies cancellation. Nobody would buy EV here in Germany for the full price. It is just too expensive.
thats Bullshit. Ev's will take over whithin 3-4 years here.
The EV incentive was cut due to ideolocigal believe in balancing the federal budget. The actual reason is probably much more along the lines of what you said in the sense that Germans really liked their big ICE engine SUV in the 2010s and German car manufacturers milked that cow instead of transitioning fast enough to EV. In 2017 VW planned to have 16 EV factories by now in Germany - it's actually around 3, with some of them only partially building EVs. Seeing batteries as commodities that can just be bought instead of seeing its research and production as a key competitive advantage now and in the upcoming years was another management strategy mistake. The most likely new conservative government to be elect want to stop "banning ICE" according to their campaign although there is no ban, the EU simply set the CO2 limits for new cars (over all new sales in average) at over the years increasing values that cannot be fulfilled with ICE vehicles. It's a bit like saying you want to ditch the unsporty people ban in soccer when in fact unsporty people just do not meet the requirements to compete. My assumption is car manufacturers and politician see how the market is shifting in China and the only thing keeping German car manufacturers alive are ICE sales. So therefore German's are fed the narrative EVs are bad to salvage a certain amount of ICE sales in the hope it gives German car manufacturers time to catch up in the EV space and become competitive again in China. But the rate in which new German EVs are coming out is too slow, the software is bad and faulty and battery range wise they are behind the Chinese. Most Germans are unaware what happens in China in terms of EV sales, technological advancements etc. and they will experience rough wake up calls when the CO2 price for fuel will be freely traded from 2027 onward by certificates in the EU (currently it is still fixed by regulatory means) - which will make fuel substantially more expensive plus in 2030 the CO2 emission levels that cannot be fulfilled by ICE. Plus with one of the oldest and tech avoiding population in the world (still using fax machines, paper applications for everything are still king) they just see a "Smartphone" as too complicated compared to a "Nokia 3210" to use you analogy.
I think it may be mostly due to so much of their economy being based on the car industry. They fear changing it because it has worked so long for them, but not changing it will ruin the industry too. This is very human... it is like having to decide whether you want to undertake a very tricky surgery that might kill you on the operating table but without it you will probably slowly die... exactly when is uncertain. What do you do?
Interestingg comments about Germany. I've been buying ( Australia ) very high priced German cars all my life. I've just sold my last one. I've found a new way to travel swiftly, silently and economically, and without the stunningly complicated mechanicals of an advanced ICE engine and transmission. Having Solar is the key I think. Anyway, to each their own.....
A very good summary. Sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith and fix things on the way down. The German auto industry are right on the cliff edge right now.
@@aspiringm I think VW really needs to be building their own batteries in the same way they build their own engines for ICE cars. You won’t get far buying in batteries from another company in the long term - too much money leave# your product for an outside company. It’s ok at the start, but you need to make your own to keep costs down in the longer term.
Not sure VW has the money to invest in battery production though. They may be trapped.
EVs are still too expensive overall in Europe, while energy is at times crazy expensive in countries like Germany because of vegetable communism.
No. This is nonsense: Germany's electricity prices are average, expensive is in south-east Europe (everything south and east behind the alps).
For the facts: day ahead prices for electricity 2024 for (mean over 1 year):
Nordish countries: 23 - 50
East countries: > 100
South countries: > 100
France, Spain: 58, 63
Germany: 79
(all in €/mWh)
source: energy charts info
@@michaelmueller96353x times have increased the last 3 years. But salaries not. So yes, electricity is extremely expensive in Germany. And because of exactly vegetable communism.
@@michaelmueller9635 Google says Germany is paying 40c per kwh which is more than UK at 26c. I charge at 5.6c overnight.
@@michaelmueller9635
That’s good info. I’m surprised there’s that much of a discrepancy between countries.
I can see how that could affect someone’s purchase choice.
It’s nothing to do with EVs, the fact is no one is buying new cars! Demand has dropped by a third since 2017 and that’s bounced up after the pandemic. The vast majority of new cars are company purchases or lease. The average new price for a car in the UK is £40k, there are EVs above and below this price as there are ICE, the fact is people are prioritising where they spend there money!
Greetings from Germany. Just looking at the sales rankings for EVs in the month of November.
The top four models are German with the Model Y coming in fifth place.
Of the twenty most sold models, sixteen are German.
This has been going on for several months now.
Here in the UK December figures show the model Y as the best selling car and the model three is the best selling car. Tesla out sold Toyota. Global manufacturers need to look at global figures.
The Germans are like the Americans. These countries have been great in technology. But the people now seem to hold dear to their old technology and refuse to move to newer ones.
You hit the nail on the head! And the reasons people give for clinging to ICEs are as stupid over the pond as they are here...
On top of this misinformation is going rampant here. Both in social media and traditional media. And let’s not forget our political parties. Most of them also despise EVs and want to stick ICE. Because they are deep in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry. EVs were also pushed by the green party which is deeply hated by most Germans. So EVs have become a political statement. With the heavy push towards right and far right EVs will not be a big thing in the next few years. Which is also applies to other right leaning EU countries, too.
@@joergmaasswell the main reason is cost. They’re far more expensive that ice cars. People just don’t have the money
16 tesla charging stations in my state. Any sizeable increase in EVs and its a gridlock. Zero tesla dealers. I dunno what people expect people to do. Its inevitable, but not here yet. Hybrids are wonderful. @@joergmaass
@@Hellomynameis93 But they are NOT. That is a LIE you have been fed by people who think they are OUR BETTERS (they're not).
They better get ready to start writing some PHAT CHEQUES to Elon 😂😂😂😂😂
UK EV sales are not what you reported. Our market is being manipulated with pre registrations and petrol sales being rationed to meet Government targets.
You forgot to mention cobalt. You also forgot to mention that EV’s randomly drive off the road and run people over. Come on if you’re gonna make up stuff you might as well get imaginative with it.
Disagree with your theory about subsidies,UK only had EV subsidies for around 18 months the cost to the govt to support this was getting expensive as it took off, then stalled the market when it was withdrawn, the same thing happened when Solar panels were being encouraged, lots of solar installers went out of business, anyone see a link with auto industry. This 'massive' collapse of EV sales after subsidies just cements the fact that European legacy EV are way too expensive,
In both cases, the subsidies were to kickstart the market not be the market. There is still a very healthy industry in solar installation and now battery installation. As for electric vehicles. Sales in the UK have risen 58% in December alone. Tesla is out selling Toyota. What I will say is that Tesla is still the only large scale producer that actually believes in EV as a way forward. Everyone else (apart from the fast growing Chinese sector) is doing it through gritted teeth and it shows.
What do you think about Tesla losing its place to BMW as second most sold EV in Germany ? Or is that sensitive point for you ?
BMW slashing their prices perhaps?
This is a natural reaction to people waiting for the Juniper to arrive. You can cherry pick figures all you like here is one go and check how much debt BMW is in then go and check how much debt Tesla is in you want to be sitting down when you check BMW and you want to be lying down when you check VW and you want to be in accident and emergency when you check Toyota.
@@ouethojlkjn Talk like a true fanboy....
By the way, beside bad sale, Elon trying to meddle in other politic won t help Tesla case in Europe..
Producing cars that Politicians want but asking the Public to pay for? No wonder German car manufacturers are going broke.
Totaly agree with you👍🙂
In times of economic stress like now, car manufacturers should only look at 5% profits and CEOs should be paid the workers' salary.
There is one thing you maybe haven't considered about EV-s on Germany.
It's very common in Germany to take relatively long inter-ciry car drives, 400-500 km on autobahns. And the minimum speed on 2nd lane is 170 km/h and this is more for Škodas and VW-s. Most of the BMW, MB-s and Audis Are on the 3rd lane with speeds well over 200 km/h.
Taking in consideration EV-s efficiency in these speeds it would mean a recharging stop after every 2 hours of drive. Add very weak charging infrastructure next to the autobahns and there you have a solid reason. On top of course all that legacy manufacturers lobbied media and removal of government grants
Yep, they don't give a shit about the resultant pollution.
There is no minimum speed limit on German autobahns.
@@marcg1686 no but common sense
I've driven on the Autobahn, and there's no minimum. 150-200 kph is common in a good car, but there are maximum speed limits for truck and bus.
The average speed is around 140 on the Autobahn. Are you living in a parallel universe?
Electric Viking, you missed an important point. The subsidies for electric cars made it possible to buy a new car in Germany and sell it after six months in another EU country, generating a profit. With the end of these subsidies, this practice has largely stopped. As a result, fewer cars are now being sold in Germany, while sales in other EU countries have increased.
Your comment is largely correct but needs some nuance.
In 2023 the minimum ownership period was extended to 12 months. This alone diminished the returns for those taking a ride on the BAFA carousel. The cancellation of the eco subsidy did the rest.
Just to put into perspective the scale of the abuse, more than 30% of all Tesla's newly registered in Germany in 2021 and 2022 are no longer in Germany. They're in the Netherlands and Denmark.
Short term, drop the prices instead of buying carbon credits, get the EV market moving then volume will take up the slack, may even make a profit !
Dont ignore european emission rules 2025...its a 10 000$ differrence to sell a BEV in 2025 instead 2024 for european suppliers
Is simple, the places that EV sales rises, buying an EV there dosen't cost an arm and a leg. In Europe they are still very expensive, even with subsidies.
Prices coming down all the time
The fact that EV sales in Germany crashed last year may not be that surprising given its car industry is perhaps the most exposed to an EV take over.
It’s not just EV sales declining in Germany, it’s ALL auto sales as the German economy has flatlined and going through a major transition away from manufacturing, to design and engineering, as Britain did years ago.
It's a FORCED transition due to some unknown forces destroying the Nordstream gas pipes from Russia. Without energy, you can't do manufacturing.
UK here:
EV prices here are bonkers although some cheaper units are coming on stream. Depreciation is almost cruel.
Added to the high list price there is the horrendous 'Car Tax' that can add thousands to the cost when the showroom prices exceeds £40K (79.4K AUD). Most EVs are sold or leased to businesses rather than private/domestic owners.
Home charging is fine but many UK homes are not suited with no off street parking. Non Tesla charging points can be asking high prices and you can need so many different Apps on your mobile (cell) for all the different providers, it can drive you mad.
90% of all new cars in the UK of any drivetrain are leased. It isn’t just EV. You are also conflicting lease purchases with business purchases they are not the same thing. This is why the SMMT separates it out. You are also confusing cost with value. Try specifying a BMW3 series that approaches a base Tesla model three and see how much it’s going to cost you.
have you seen the prices for electricity in Germany? this is the answer. And also charging mess.
Obviously you don't live in Germany, otherwise you would know the facts.
Electricity prices:
Germany's electricity prices are average, expensive is in south-east Europe (everything south and east behind the alps).
For the facts: day ahead prices for electricity 2024 for (mean over 1 year):
Nordish countries: 23 - 50
East countries: > 100
South countries: > 100
France, Spain: 58, 63
Germany: 79
(all in €/mWh)
source: energy charts info
Charging:
Germany got the second most charging points in the EU: 120.625
In relative numbers these are 145 Charging points/1000 citizen, this is international mid-field.
The number of charging points, that did increase from 2023 to 2024: 41 %
Just go with the facts.
@@michaelmueller9635 I live in Russia, according to our media you have all died from cold in 2022), but the day ahead prices are not for consumers - we have like 10-20 euros per megawatt price the day ahead in Russia and 40-90 euro end price in the electric plug at home. So in Germany end price can be way higher than day ahead.
@@andreya2760 Maybe the purchasing power of the people in Germany and Russia are different too...
I do know that the wholesale price for electricity in Germany is around 70 euros per mWh, or 7 euro cents per kW. I don't know what households pay though.
@@PeroniPete
I'm paying about €0,31/kWh.
Need to watch Barrie Crampton he's on the tube explains what's going on might be an eye opener for you sales are not quite what you think guys😮
It’s not just Germany, Uk has also dropped they only look good because manufactures preregistered them to save on the fines for not hitting the 22% target. Don’t forget once we all have an EV the fad will be to stop the mining for materials, Lithium for batteries and especially copper for all the charging cables. So stop spouting on about how great an EV is. EV’s are great for small journeys but not long ones so let’s ban cars over 2.0l engine size and live in harmony with both EV and ICE.
Sounds like a plug-in Hybrid....
@ Not rely because if you don’t plug it in your fuel economy is not good, then you have no boot space for long trips.
When I had company cars in the 1980s there was already huge taxis put on anything over 2 L which is why everything ended up being a 2 L turbo. The auto industry will always get around it no matter what you do. The real problem is Younger buyers are not interested in internal combustion. Your existing buyers are dying simply due to age. The young will not be denied their future simply because the old wish to cling onto their past.
The uk sales are mostly driven by company and salary sacrifice tax saving schemes ( I have ordered a Tesla on one of these schemes) but without this incentive and Tesla sc network I wouldn’t have gone for it. I do about 400 miles a week and looking forward to getting the Tesla. From the comments charging infrastructure, subsidies and penalties are driving the market forces.
Company cars and associated tax rules have always driven a large part of new car sales though..ICE or EV
90% of all new cars sold in the UK are leased. One way or another almost all cars in the UK are not private buyers EV or otherwise. I don’t know why people keep making this point as if it’s important.
Uncertainty und high buying costs. Not enough compact options. The EV market is rapidly moving and EV prices are still sky high but expected to drop soon with pressure from Chinese manufacturers.
Everything you say may be correct, but don’t forget it also applies to internal combustion. All car prices are ridiculous. It doesn’t matter what the drivetrain is.
Germany is a good example of what happens when the playing field is somewhat levelled.
NZ is only a minor market but the same is true.
In the UK the overwhelming majority of BEV's are sold into company fleets and those owning company cars due to the tax incentives, take that away and....
We can't do much about the big advantage EV's have though, governments slowly banning ICE sales.
BEV's are great for certain applications especially if you own your own place and can charge at home, but ICE is king for many others including heavy transport, shame we're going to have to go backwards.
You make it sound like no petrol diesel or hybrid is ever bought as a company car or a fleet wagon.
@@ouethojlkjn No my post doesn't sound like that at all, it simply states what sector the majority of EV sales went to in the UK due to tax incentives. Look it up if you don't believe me
Germany is in economic recession, so they can't afford to buy expensive new cars as they did before.
Aren‘t there only two profitable EV companies in the world?
Thailand's new EV registrations 2024 down 8.1% YOY, and new EVs are just 14% of all new car registrations. Fortunately, it is not a major car market.
EV sales in Ireland crashed too. Initial prices high, charging infrastructure poor and re- sale values poor. When solid state is the norm, current EV' second hand values will be even worse.
Do we all have to consider EV's are disposable products like a laptop or phone? Will there be 20 year old EV's going around like there are ICE cars. I doubt it.
There are 14 year old EVs now! Of course there will be 20 year old ones
When you now have a battery that does 8M kms and is still 80% efficient I don't. No ICE cars have ever had 5% of that.
Trade in value of EVs relative to Market value is scary in Ireland.Eg MG4 costs €34000 in October 2023,trade in value in December 2024 €22000.Yes EVs are gigantic phones.Own one and see their value tank.
@@dermotporter5280 Bought ours brand new for €29000 (incl delivery charge €1000), and they say cars depreciate 25% when you drive them out of the show room so I guess that's about right.
Have you seen the plastic rubbish that lives under an internal combustion engine bonnet these days? My mate just skipped his Mondeo after just 136,000 miles. Dead engine and it wasn’t even one of those nasty wet belts.
German governments and individuals who are working for or who have friends and family working for the ICE companies, see the end of the road for their livelihood, do you expect them to rush forward?
the pundits have won
I don't know why the EU wants to wait until 2035, 2030 would be better
With ICE prices increasing and EV prices decreasing, a 2035 ban is pointless. Even by 2030 I expect an EV to be a simple choice in Europe. ICE manufacturers don't even try to delay the 2035 ban because the ban is not what is going to kill them.
Stop the 2035 or in UK 2030. If you want an EV have one if it’s not good for you then have an ICE car. It’s like being a child when your parents would say if you don’t eat your cabbage you can’t have any pudding.
@@jwstolk Yes your right, it's just funny the EU does not realise this and adjust their date so it can have some function.
@@PaulRendell-u1b Well if the ICE makers got off their buts and fixed the pollution bit then none of this wound be needed, but the aren't so they need a red hot poker up their but, and 2035 is just so off into the future.
Good to know
I’d guess Germans are very proud of the automotive history. They should be.
So now they’re hearing their BEVs are crap, and so they’re going with ICE or hybrids. Of course, what’s been getting the bad press is the software, which is just as bad in their ICE cars, so that logic doesn’t fly. That and their range and efficiency. As Herbert Deiss said, they just need to improve their BEv tech and manufacturing. Or they’re toast.
Let’s go Germany!!
Yes, look at the VW ID Buzz, a smash hit almost, but it's too damn expensive and the battery is probably not good enough. That's the main problem, German cars are just too damn expensive.
The current charging and energy infrastructure simply is not there to support EVs, whether made locally or bought from China xD Energy prices are also crazy high too...
Both not true. Charging infrastructure is quite good and steadily increasing and electricity prices are not as high as many people think.
Reports of my death is geartly exaggerated
Down 24% year on year in Ireland!
find one
Sales throughout the whole of Europe were down 3%.
The main reason sales are down is due to EV range issues, charging and horrific depreciation. Simple.
All of which have been or will be rectified
@@timothyrussell4445 How?
Horrific depreciation in the first 2-3 years only affects those in the habit of buying a new car every 2-3 years!
People who buy a new car (EV or ICE) and hold on to it for 10-15-20+ years don't worry too much about depreciation because they know the car won't be worth much and/or will inevitably depreciate a lot by then regardless
@@you2be839 Most people then...
WRONG AGAIN Viking. Ireland's 2024 EV sales were also 25% down on 2023. A terrible EV charging network, battery range execration, and high deprecation are the reasons for the decline. Germans are not buying EVs because a wind and solar policy has resulted in super expensive electricity, and the EV purchase subsidies were stopped. 80% of UK EV sales are to companies because company car users receive massive reductions in BIK tax when they drive an EV. The cost to the UK taxpayer of EV subsidies is many billions of Pounds.
Ireland is well-positioned to generate a LOT of offshore wind, and coastal nuclear. There's really no excuse for Eire not to have abundant electricity.
Not true. My electricity price is 27 ct per kWh in Germany, not much more compared to recent years. Solar and wind energy are reducing higher costs. Coal and gas are responsible for higher prices.
Facts
Allow the German auto mfrs to invest money in EV R&D and production facilities, instead of paying multi-millions - or even a dime - to Tesla.
German OEMs made enormous profits in China for decades, but invested almost nothing into EV technology. Had they done so, Germany would own the entire EV space.
ev Sales correlate to
1) cost of vehicle and what financial incentives are given
2) charging infrastructure state
I like this channel, but find the expectations on EV very optimistic. It will take years and governments will likely adjust policies to having only EV type car sales.
Most of Germany is not densely populated and a large portion of car owners can charge at home. Especially for EV's with a decent range, the charging infrastructure doesn't really matter if you rarely empty the battery in a day of driving. I'm in the more densely populated Netherlands and in more than a year have never used a Tesla super charger or any other public charger. There are buyers who depend on the charging infrastructure but I think there is a demand for EV's that doesn't depend on public charging infrastructure.
"Petrol powered cars are the most common powertrain type in Germany, accounting for 35% of all sales". What? 35% is not a majority.
Yes but add 17% for diesel and you have the majority.
European legacy auto maker's focused on Greed,,,,,,Now Greed is focusing on THEM now 😂😂😂😂😂
GREED as in.....Porsche Macan prices.???
@PeroniPete yep 😅
Europe:
- EXTREME prices
- NMC batteries
- Low range
- expensive "fast" charging
Nobody wants EVs at the moment, they are just not practical to purchase.
I think, if you look the sales figures suggest no one wants any of the cars that are being foisted on them EV or not
In eu no 9-29k€ ev's = only cars for elite
This is BS: There are EVs under 30k€ and under 20k€ in Germany.
Not true. Just buy used.
Hearing the UK the cheapest nastiest petrol one series BMW is over £31,000 - just exactly where are all these incredibly cheap ice cars for sale? I have yet to find one.
28% is closer to 1/4 than 1/3 no need to make it sound worse than it is.
28% is closer to 3/10, and almost exactly 2/7.
Losing Chinese ICE sales to EVs made in China has killed all the legacy manufacturers. High % of income was from China. Not any more. To say nothing of how much better the Chinese EVs are made and how much they cost.
Germany used to export a lot of expensive ICE cars to China, but domestic Chinese EVs are now better quality with more features. Germany depends very heavily on exports, roughly 50% of German GDP. As China now competes strongly with Germany around the world, German revenues are collapsing. We could see major German economic collapse within 5 years.
@@ZweiZwolfChinease EVs are not better, at least not the models you can buy in Germany. They don‘t sell many cars. German cars are in the top ranks.
I have seen a Zeekr up close and anyone who thinks these cars are not up to or passing German standards is simply going bankrupt…
@@ouethojlkjn I saw the Zeekr 001 at the Shenzhen Auto Show. It's VERY good, easily on par with any BMW or Benz I've owned.
Just realized I have a new hero. And it's the cat from this video💖
Biggest employer in the country is making ICe cars. Of course there is resistance to EVs. So it will take a little longer.
It won't take that long at all, 2035 is just around the corner in automotive terms: they don't want to make EVs because they're not very profitable for them right now; but more and more people also don't want to buy new ICE cars because 2035 is approaching fast!...
People can't afford €40.000+ EVs or are simply unwilling to pay that much money for a EV car, but they also don't want to pay €30-€40.000+ for low powered ICE cars have tiny engines to meet new 2025 emissions or Hybrids that are even more expensive to maintain than regular ICE cars... so something will have to give!...
As far as I see it, most people will just keep buying used ICE cars for as long as possible, especially cheap ICE cars, until the 2035 EV fog clears up on which vehicle type will be more useless for sale: EV or ICE...
Germans are great engineers. They will get to the drawing board and get to work fast to compete. I cant say the same for America.
The germans have improved their EVs in recent years. Software was the biggest problem. Still not perfect but better now. VW is a good example. I think the ID.7 is a very good efficient car.
Darn stubborn Germans won’t buy the cars Sam says they should buy.
If people wouldn’t buy iPhones unless they were covered in buttons, then Apple would make iPhones covered in buttons. The legacy auto industry is not digging its heels in because it wants to support its long suffering customers. It is simply so it can make as much money as possible before it has to do the pivot anyway.
@ it’s the Governments that has decided what type of cars auto manufacturers make not the market , so of course, consumers are rejecting them.
It’s all their own bloody fault!
The German Car industry will die because of its ICE arrogance and EV incompetence, helped by the German government,
which via the FDP, has allowed itself to be bribed by the combustion engine car industry to:
1. Reduce subsidies.
2. Allow the combustion engine car industry to continue to delay the development and production of good electric cars that are acceptable to customers.
3. To even discuss the combustion engine ban that the EU has already decided on and
4. To babble about "technology openness".
Germany! start taxing Gasoline and Diesel cars more now! Increase yearly payment on ICE cars or Start adding registration tax on them! That's what Norway, Denmark, Sweden, UK and China are doing, And these countries see big increase in EV-sales.
There are not much EV incentives in Germany!
Germans can’t afford extra tax.
The Germans were holding protests against paycuts. No time for production which resulted in under capacity 😂😂😂
Not true.
@gerbre1
ua-cam.com/video/ZsaIubgfoII/v-deo.htmlsi=d_IKv9L-ncq2zUO7
@gerbre1
ua-cam.com/video/j8gIxBMF-Mw/v-deo.htmlsi=NTQDMJU_pwWajM8P
@@cb250nighthawk3There is no undercapacity.
@gerbre1
When the production lines are on holidays. 👀
Who could afford them in the 1st place?
Greetings from Denmark. The coming president of USA, is pissing us off with a possible special military operation. By affiliation Elon is getting some of that PR as well. This sort of behavior may overrule the price and technical advantages Tesla have and give European cars a chance. Even the fossil burning kind. Of course we are allies with USA, but the friendship is getting tense. Not sure how Elons political PR campaign in Germany is going.
Pish
Have you seen the German EVs?
Nothing wrong with them. In Norway 2024 total sales of VAG cars were almost as high as Tesla, even more if you add VW Buzz and Transporter - and in addition both BMW and Mercedes are in the top 20 list. The new VW ID.7 is a superb car, perhaps the best bang for the bucks right now. Only one, single Chinese car was in the top 20 list in 2024.
@
Paid troll…..
@@hansweissmann_xviii6754 says the Chinese bot.
@@TTTT-oc4eb 2 minutes ago
@hansweissmann_xviii6754 says the Chinese bot.
Because I dislike the 1990's look of the ID 7? How much does an ID 7 go for? Starting at 60k Euros? While you are promoting it like it's your baby? C'mon M8, never heard of hypocrisy, have you? Btw, ID 4 is also a joke, so is ID 3. Yeah, earn your troll fee......
@@hansweissmann_xviii6754 In Norway the ID.7 starts at 44K Euros. The top model, GTX Tourer, starts at 51K Euros. I got my seven month old demo car, with "everything" included, for 35K Euros. And yes, I have tried other EVs, and they don't come close.
Both the ID.3, 4/5 and 7 are in the top 10 list in Norway, together with the Skoda Enyaq. Audi, BMW and Mercedes are all in the top 20 list. Of Chinese cars, only the MG4 are in the top 20.
Nobody in Western democracies should by Chinese cars, anyway.
My VW Auto is still good condition, no money for EV. Keine extra Geld und Garage.
How can Tesla save the German automotive industry? Makes no sense.
German car market fallen by 1% in 2024….BUT EV sales crashed by 27%. This is what will happen to other major European markets when subsidies will end.
Not when EVs get cheaper to produce
The UK ended EV subsidies a few years back, they're still selling well without them. In the UK it's ICE sales that are in decline, although the market grew overall last year this was solely down to EVs, in particular BEVs that outgrew PHEVs and HEVs combined by 38%.
The issue is car prices have increased beyond what the market is willing to support. ICE have been impacted by this for years cars with production of smaller more affordable models stopped at the same time.
However, some of the automakers are reintroducing smaller car models this year again, in BEV form. We'll have to wait till later in the year to see if that is sufficient to turn the tide on their fortunes.
@GruffSillyGoat about 80% of EV sales in the UK are fleet or businesses or work schemes and the government provides very generous tax incentives to do so. in addition EVs have been paying ZERO tax so far. On the other hand government has severely penalised the purchase of ICE through increased taxation. Uk is also different to European EV markets so not a relevant comparison. Europe has imposed tariffs on Chinese EVs whereas then Uk not.
VAT is applied on BEVs, the *T* in the name is a bit of a clue that they are taxed. Plus from this year, VED will apply as well to BEVs the relief was always known to be temporary, yet some ICE cars continue to enjoy low and indeed zero VED taxation.
With regards to 80% of EV 'sales' (namely registrations) being fleet, the majority of all fuel-type new car registrations are 'fleet' and not 'private' segement sales these days. The private segment has been shrinking for years, and particlularly over the last five years as people are holding onto cash and cannot afford expensive bank or personal loans to buy cars; the segment is now down to only 38% of the market.
Also, you are aware as the government pointed out to the industry body recently that a high proportion of fleet 'sales' are via salary sacrifice meaning they are private vehicle registrations, plus the 80% figure also includes personal leased vehicles that are again private registrations. The 'fleet' segment is defined by the industry body as _‘leasing/contract hire and fleet other’,_ it includes private use of vehicles where the vehicle is owned by a leasing company but the individual is the 'registered keeper' (pcp, lease hire, hire purchase etc.).
How is the UK different to other European EV markets, Norway has a similar high level of EV sales, as does Sweden and France. Indeed the outlier this year is Germany, which saw a drop in EV sales. The UK has always been included in the European comparisons and overall territory market figures, and will continue to be so.
I suspect you're mixing up Europe with EU, there are a number of European countries outside the EU that don't employ the EU's car tariffs.
People who post this kind of comment constantly forget how much subsidy is given to the petrochemical industry. Why is one subsidy wrong and the other subsidy right?
For 25-30.000 euro I can find a hybrit Golf or A3, why would I buy a full electric vehicle? You can call me oldschool but for me and for lots of people full electric is still not the right choice.
Hybrid is a car I would never buy. Why charge a car that only has 30 to 50 km range and always think about charging or only driving higher weight around. I saw a change back in 2021 and sold my Audi A4 for rent a Tesla and after 6 months ordered my model 3 LG. I dont look back I just like it.
Since there aren't enouh teslas sold, vw just have to lower prices on evs to avoid thousands of euros of penalties per ice car sold. Per chatgpt calc it should be about $1000 per car sold. To get the average numbers down they would have to sell about 10% less non-evs and instead replace those with evs. So they could subsidize ev sales with €5000 euros, per ev car, instead of wasting it on tesla, and pay no penalties (meaning their total cost is half of what it would be paying penalties) assuming that should allow them to sell that many more evs. I say sell more evs, buster. They could also simply raise the non-ev prices by 1000, that alone would result in more ev sales at no cost to them, just transferring the ice penalty to the consumer. I have no problem either with that.
How can German manufacturers raise the price of their ICE cars?? They're already so expensive..
Comunist and economy never go.
I wonder why...🤔. 🤣🤣🤣
Europe need cheap energy
trump&Elon want to meanwhile remove $7.5k subsidy,
They also want to change the governments of Germany, UK, Denmark and France!
You don’t talk much about India as an auto market. It is the 4th largest auto industry in the world
Its only pro china or contra germany here, there is no inbetween 😂
Follow the money
World's largest population, 4th largest auto market, less than Japan having < 1/10 the population.
@@wimd4964 If India ever has something good to share about EVs, I'm sure we'll hear it from every Indian in the world.
@@ZweiZwolf it is a growing market. Less than 9% of car ownership. The growth is in India. And it is growing fast
Thanks for sharing the great news Sam! Hopefully numbers will drop in every single country in 2025 🎉
Unlikely
Great News! Thanks You SAM 🎉
I think that in the UK it's maxed out. I base this on the fact that the UK pre-registered BEVs in December, and they have to find buyers for all these in the new year before they even begin to register new 2025 sales. And car makers are unlikely to be able to shoulder another £4.5 billion in discounts like they did in 2024 - so prices will likely increase again.
@@vincentcausey8498 That might happen in the short term, but in the medium to long term EV prices will continue to tumble, tariffs or not.
Chinese NEV sales will grow by 3, possibly 4 million, from 11 million NEVs to at least 14-15 million. This is on top of 3 million NEV sales growth in 2024, from 8 million NEVs in 2023. NEVs were only about 40% of Chinese sales, so they could eventually hit 25 million in due time.
german goverment cut a 10000€ discount on EVs payed by the state cause they ran out of money...
Paid not payed
VW plays out to shorters….
German electrical vehicles are overpriced and underperformed. They lack advanced gadgets which makes driving boring. It is time to BYD❤
Chinease cars are always beeping. Germans don‘t want to hear that. This is why BYD numbers are so low.
Global.sales of Teslas were lower in 2024
Sales is one thing profit is another. You want to be sitting down when you check how much debt Toyota is in. And VW. And BMW. In fact, just go check them all it’s a horror story.
I think Tesla are going to be in trouble this year. Competition from China will be intense.
First some commenters are giving reasons why I will center in WTF, you are giving false data. Car sales in Germany, albeit 1% down, were 2,8mm vehicles. The UK market is only 1,95mm. I guess BEV in the UK were 1.361 more than Germany. PURE MISINFORMATION.
Comparison sums don't work like that, you have to account for decline as well as growth in the respective markets - the UKs in 2025 being 2.6% growth overall all due to EVs, with pure-ICE in decline.
In the UK the sales of ICE models declined, all of the year for diesel, down -13.6% overall, and the last nine months of the year for petrol, down -4.4% overall.
Whereas EVs grew, BEVs up 21.4%, PHEVs up 18.3% and HEVs up 9.6% with BEVs selling the largest volume of the three (growth volume 38% higher than HEV and PHEV's combined).
For the full year pure-ICE shrunk to 58.5% of the market (1142k) whilst EVs grew to 41.5% of the market (830k), with BEVs being 382k of that growth.
@GruffSillyGoat One can analyse data to sell a POV. My comment was directed at the statement that Germany was not the largest car market in Europe which it is. Also, analysing your data is correct that ICE declined in the UK and all growth due to EV's, which it is. But the all the decline in Germany is also due to EV's. There are many reasons why in Germany it is so and best to ask someone that lives there as I am in Spain. In Spain BEV grew 4% but the overall market grew 7% so no good news here either. And I will add I do own an EV so not a denier.
@@elmojito - I wasn't claiming you were a 'denier', or made any reference to yourself personally.
Rather I was commenting that comparisons cannot be drawn at superficial levels, like that in your original post, that detail is important for context.
Tesla's sales have fallen in Germany by 55%
Thanks to EM.
The Germans are coming remember that the Germans are coming the Germans are coming the Germans have come and realised they can't do it😂
...instead of coming they went..!
Ok.....first of all I (a German) don't want to be forced to do anything with MY money.
2. Even small EVs (if they existed anyway) are too expensive in relation. And small cars with a big reach are very rare and even more expensive.
3. Infrastructure! It seems that almost everyone here lives in an owned single house with solar panels on their roofs. Well....guess what: Most people don't! I live in a multi-family-building with a parking garage and pay rent. There's not a single wallbox in our garage and I'm pretty sure my landlord won't be installing one in the near future.
The infrastructure in general Germany (public spaces) is progressing and improving.
3. People in my town (5000) are not even sure if our power grid would be ok with too many EVs. 😬
4. How long will the batteries be ok to use and what is it gonna take to renew them? More than the car's worth?🤷🏼♂️
5. Where do the used,old batteries go?
6. Oh.....oh.......here it comes! 😬
Is it really gonna help the planet's climate in such massive way if all this electrification takes place in this short period of time and not on a longer progress? 🤷🏼♂️ I honestly don't know.
Wen willst du eigentlich hier vereiern?
1. Do you not pay taxes in Germany?
2. Chinese EVs of Honda quality start around $11,000 USD
3. Chinese garages and parking lots have had plenty of EV charging installed, not hard to create a shared EV charger subsidy
3. You could always import cheap Russian gas or restart your nuclear power plants
4. modern batteries will be 80% good after 15+ years, so they'll outlast a BMW or Mercedes
5. they can go into grid storage to flatten wind & solar generation. The US and China are using HUGE batteries to store solar power that is released after sunset
6. Chinese air quality massively improved as they shifted from oil and coal to wind and solar. Every little bit helps, sooner than later
Germany has a green government. They are to blame for the EV disaster.
Nope, Germany has No "Green government", its Not even the biggest party in the collaboration. the green party is also not to blame here, as they were forced to cut the subventions because the other parties did not want to spend any more money on it. If you look for someone to blame, Look at the conservatives and neo-liberals and tons of misinformation on the internet.
No, the liberals of FDP are to blame they didn't want the EV subsidies
The "liberals"/FDP sabotaged the government till it broke down.
If you wanna blame someone, these are to blame.
What do you think should have been done differently?
Why are they to blame?
I think it's better to have the customer pay the fine than the automakers. That will do more to promote EV sales. Instead of gas guzzler tax it should be for any vehicle with a tailpipe. Consumers are paying obscene amounts of money for cars already the fine at a "per car" basis is a non issue. That would also make customers aware the automakers are having to pay the fine. This way they don't have to pay Tesla money and stand a better chance of improving.
Total car sales in Germany have fallen by 1%. VW and BMW are best selling brands there.
I think the US is going to shock the world in 2025 when EV sales actually stay stable or even rise a bit even after Federal Subsidies end soon. The momentum here is definitely increasing and used EV sales are through the roof due to people taking advantage of depreciated inventory. The channels are stuffed full with stories about how today’s ICE engines are totally unreliable even from Toyota, and how used ICE cars are increasingly in poorer and poorer condition crapping out soon after purchase.
People aren't going to suddenly find an extra $7,500 for an EV.
all incentives for EVs going to zelenski pockets
China fanboy 🤣
Nothing wrong with that.
Follow the money
It’s all their own bloody fault!
The German Car industry will die because of its ICE arrogance and EV incompetence, helped by the German government,
which via the FDP, has allowed itself to be bribed by the combustion engine car industry to:
1. Reduce subsidies.
2. Allow the combustion engine car industry to continue to delay the development and production of good electric cars that are acceptable to customers.
3. To even discuss the combustion engine ban that the EU has already decided on and
4. To babble about "technology openness".