Thanks for making these videos! They are through and clear, and you've even taken the time to give extremely thoughtful responses in the comments. I'm sure the time you put into these is significant, but it produced something really, really helpful!
Thanks for this, a useful refresher! UK based climber here, im going to be in Vegas for a conference in November and looking for a guide for a day or two rock climbing. If that's you can you let me know how to reach you? Thanks
Thanks so much for reaching out @tristramebson699! So sorry I'm just getting to your message. My apologies. Here is my email: glenyoung.guide@gmail.com. Shoot me an email and let me know your dates. Hope to connect with you!
In the second example hasnt the twist come from the fact that stefan and liz have swapped sides. I.e stefan climbing on yellow now on left and liz on blue on the right. Originally the other way round as you are tied in with yellow on right and blue on left. Thanks for the video. Learnt a couple of nice tips.
Yeah, sometimes due to the orientation of a pitch it can be more comfortable for the seconding climber to step over the third climber's rope at some point. This is especially the case with pitches that finish on easy traversing terrain. However, this rarely causes problems with the belay or with rope management if using the technique shown in the video. However, if there are many twists in the rope (usually more than three) it could cause a problem with the function of the belay. This can happen if the climbers who are following the pitch intentionally step over or around their partner's rope as they climb. They may do this because the two ropes they are climbing on appear to be twisted around each other, and they are trying to get the twists out (a slack rope often spins around a tensioned rope- creating the illusion of a permanent twist when in reality when pulled on the twists disappear). If this happens, the belayer may need to build a locking munter-hitch and belay one climber on this while continuing to belay the other in the original belay device. To prevent this from happening it is helpful to tell the climbers NOT to intentionally step around each other, but if a "phantom twist" is interfering with their ability to progress up the pitch or clean the gear then they can pull the ropes apart, which should move the twists up the ropes toward the belay where either they will come out (because they were not permanent twists) or they belayer will manage them.
Hi @mjh42777! That's a great question. Personal anchors and other leash systems have some advantages and disadvantages when it comes to attaching to anchors. An advantage of leashes is that it is very clear who is attached to the anchor and who is not (the rope is all the same color with multiple legs coming off the clove hitches, so it takes some getting used to). Also, leashes don't require you to tie a clove hitch, so it is one less knot that you can mess-up (munter hitches/Italian hitches often result when a clove hitch is tied incorrectly, which can have large consequences if it is not recognized before the follower is taken off belay). Because of these significant safety drawbacks, I often recommend that those who are newer to multipitch climbing stick with using Personal Anchor Systems and other leashes until they have their multipitch systems dialed. Then they can focus on mastering the technique of using the rope for anchoring while on the ground before taking it up on the cliff. The advantages of using the rope to attach to anchors is in the comfort that it offers. This really adds-up over the course of a long multipitch, or if you have three people at a belay anchor as when climbing as a party of three. The reason it offers so much more comfort is because a clove-hitch allows you to introduce or take-up just about as much slack as you want. So if there is a good ledge six feet below the anchor, you can have one or both of your followers hang-out on that ledge while still anchored on the bolts/trad anchor above (you might be able to do something similar with a Personal Anchor, but it would require adding long slings to the anchor to provide the extension, which you may not have available if you need the slings for the next pitch or next anchor). If the lead climber anchors at the belay using the rope with a clove, they can have a seat beneath the anchor while belaying in order to rest their legs, even if the best seated position is well below the anchor. Once the leader leaves the belay to lead the next pitch, one of the followers can step into the stance the leader was using, and with a quick adjustment of the clove hitch they are comfortably anchored in the new position- even if that new position is ten feet away from where they were standing previously. Use of tethers (such as personal anchors) and the rope for anchoring both can result in rope management snafus. Mitigating these requires developing an understanding of how the followers will enter the belay station (from the left or right), how the lead rope(s) need to overlap the tethers/rope attachments of followers, and how the leader will depart the belay station while leading the next pitch (going left or right). For those who are still learning multipitch belay station management, and for experienced multipitch climbers who make the occasional mistake, a tether can be a useful tool for anchoring all team members while you work-out such a problem, which might be easiest to solve by untying team members after they have been anchored by their PAs (a common occurrence in big wall climbing). Additionally, tethers are almost always used on technical descents such as rappels, where it is efficient to rappel to the next rap anchor and clip directly into a pre-constructed quad that you have clipped to both bolts/rings. In other words, I think both PAs and the rope are great tools for multipitch anchoring, and I use them both in my personal climbing and when guiding. Mastering the use of both of these tools offers the advantages of comfort and security combined. Let me know if that answered your question!
I’d use half ropes. IMHO the biggest advantage with half ropes is that you can give a clear signal when you’ve reached the anchor and when the follower(s) can start climbing. Quickly pull in ~5m of one rope to signal you’ve reached the anchor and can be taken off belay. Now start pulling in the ropes together. One rope will be taut first (because you’ve already pulled in 5m of it). You put in your belay device and make both ropes taut. Now your follower(s) know they can start climbing. I’d stack the ropes on my personal anchor, unless the ledge is really big. I’d belay off the anchor unless there is a really big, flat ledge for a body belay.
Thanks for checking on that @RMNPBETA! I think others will be interested in this answer as well. The purpose of the back-up knot is to protect against the possibility of a weighted rope passing between the load strand and brake strand that is in the belay device, which could disable the auto-blocking function of the ATC guide belay device. I take a look at this failure mechanism in another video titled "Belay Device Failure". When Stephen and Liz are at the belay together in the scenario depicted I feel fine taking-out the back-up know because a scenario such as this is not present, and the device's auto-block mode should not be affected. Thanks so much for watching and noticing that detail!
Thanks for making these videos! They are through and clear, and you've even taken the time to give extremely thoughtful responses in the comments. I'm sure the time you put into these is significant, but it produced something really, really helpful!
Thanks for this. Its super helpful for us newbies to see more than just one isolated technique.
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome demonstration 👍
Thanks so much @themountainknights!
Thanks for this, a useful refresher! UK based climber here, im going to be in Vegas for a conference in November and looking for a guide for a day or two rock climbing. If that's you can you let me know how to reach you? Thanks
Thanks so much for reaching out @tristramebson699! So sorry I'm just getting to your message. My apologies. Here is my email: glenyoung.guide@gmail.com. Shoot me an email and let me know your dates. Hope to connect with you!
In the second example hasnt the twist come from the fact that stefan and liz have swapped sides. I.e stefan climbing on yellow now on left and liz on blue on the right. Originally the other way round as you are tied in with yellow on right and blue on left. Thanks for the video. Learnt a couple of nice tips.
Yeah, sometimes due to the orientation of a pitch it can be more comfortable for the seconding climber to step over the third climber's rope at some point. This is especially the case with pitches that finish on easy traversing terrain. However, this rarely causes problems with the belay or with rope management if using the technique shown in the video. However, if there are many twists in the rope (usually more than three) it could cause a problem with the function of the belay. This can happen if the climbers who are following the pitch intentionally step over or around their partner's rope as they climb. They may do this because the two ropes they are climbing on appear to be twisted around each other, and they are trying to get the twists out (a slack rope often spins around a tensioned rope- creating the illusion of a permanent twist when in reality when pulled on the twists disappear). If this happens, the belayer may need to build a locking munter-hitch and belay one climber on this while continuing to belay the other in the original belay device. To prevent this from happening it is helpful to tell the climbers NOT to intentionally step around each other, but if a "phantom twist" is interfering with their ability to progress up the pitch or clean the gear then they can pull the ropes apart, which should move the twists up the ropes toward the belay where either they will come out (because they were not permanent twists) or they belayer will manage them.
Great vid
Thanks much!
Would it be quicker if each climber used a PA?
Hi @mjh42777! That's a great question. Personal anchors and other leash systems have some advantages and disadvantages when it comes to attaching to anchors. An advantage of leashes is that it is very clear who is attached to the anchor and who is not (the rope is all the same color with multiple legs coming off the clove hitches, so it takes some getting used to). Also, leashes don't require you to tie a clove hitch, so it is one less knot that you can mess-up (munter hitches/Italian hitches often result when a clove hitch is tied incorrectly, which can have large consequences if it is not recognized before the follower is taken off belay). Because of these significant safety drawbacks, I often recommend that those who are newer to multipitch climbing stick with using Personal Anchor Systems and other leashes until they have their multipitch systems dialed. Then they can focus on mastering the technique of using the rope for anchoring while on the ground before taking it up on the cliff.
The advantages of using the rope to attach to anchors is in the comfort that it offers. This really adds-up over the course of a long multipitch, or if you have three people at a belay anchor as when climbing as a party of three. The reason it offers so much more comfort is because a clove-hitch allows you to introduce or take-up just about as much slack as you want. So if there is a good ledge six feet below the anchor, you can have one or both of your followers hang-out on that ledge while still anchored on the bolts/trad anchor above (you might be able to do something similar with a Personal Anchor, but it would require adding long slings to the anchor to provide the extension, which you may not have available if you need the slings for the next pitch or next anchor). If the lead climber anchors at the belay using the rope with a clove, they can have a seat beneath the anchor while belaying in order to rest their legs, even if the best seated position is well below the anchor. Once the leader leaves the belay to lead the next pitch, one of the followers can step into the stance the leader was using, and with a quick adjustment of the clove hitch they are comfortably anchored in the new position- even if that new position is ten feet away from where they were standing previously.
Use of tethers (such as personal anchors) and the rope for anchoring both can result in rope management snafus. Mitigating these requires developing an understanding of how the followers will enter the belay station (from the left or right), how the lead rope(s) need to overlap the tethers/rope attachments of followers, and how the leader will depart the belay station while leading the next pitch (going left or right). For those who are still learning multipitch belay station management, and for experienced multipitch climbers who make the occasional mistake, a tether can be a useful tool for anchoring all team members while you work-out such a problem, which might be easiest to solve by untying team members after they have been anchored by their PAs (a common occurrence in big wall climbing). Additionally, tethers are almost always used on technical descents such as rappels, where it is efficient to rappel to the next rap anchor and clip directly into a pre-constructed quad that you have clipped to both bolts/rings.
In other words, I think both PAs and the rope are great tools for multipitch anchoring, and I use them both in my personal climbing and when guiding. Mastering the use of both of these tools offers the advantages of comfort and security combined.
Let me know if that answered your question!
@@skillsforclimbing thanks for the thorough response!
I look and the boy did not tie the standard eight knots✊
I’d use half ropes. IMHO the biggest advantage with half ropes is that you can give a clear signal when you’ve reached the anchor and when the follower(s) can start climbing. Quickly pull in ~5m of one rope to signal you’ve reached the anchor and can be taken off belay. Now start pulling in the ropes together. One rope will be taut first (because you’ve already pulled in 5m of it). You put in your belay device and make both ropes taut. Now your follower(s) know they can start climbing.
I’d stack the ropes on my personal anchor, unless the ledge is really big.
I’d belay off the anchor unless there is a really big, flat ledge for a body belay.
Anybody else catch that? Took out the backup knot before putting her clove in? Not trolling just noticing.
Thanks for checking on that @RMNPBETA! I think others will be interested in this answer as well. The purpose of the back-up knot is to protect against the possibility of a weighted rope passing between the load strand and brake strand that is in the belay device, which could disable the auto-blocking function of the ATC guide belay device. I take a look at this failure mechanism in another video titled "Belay Device Failure". When Stephen and Liz are at the belay together in the scenario depicted I feel fine taking-out the back-up know because a scenario such as this is not present, and the device's auto-block mode should not be affected. Thanks so much for watching and noticing that detail!