Bosch Smart System, eBike Flow App, PowerTube 750
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- Опубліковано 8 лип 2024
- Bosch eBike Systems announced their new Smart System products for model year 2022 at their annual press event. The new hardware includes a refined display called the Kiox 300, LED button pad (which can be used independently), high capacity PowerTube 750 battery pack, Performance Line CX, and 4 amp charger. The new software will be offered on iOS and Android smartphone devices, which will connect to the LED button pad using Bluetooth. None of the older Bosch ebike hardware will be compatible with the new Smart System hardware or software.
In this video, I present my observations, reflect on Bosch electric bike products from the current generation, and read through the official press releases. I've overlaid screenshots of the new hardware, and included a concept video shared by Bosch. I'll be answering as many questions as possible in the comments, and relying on my marketing contacts at Bosch to clarify anything that I cannot directly infer. Bosch appears to be creating a digital backbone for bicycle manufacturers, lights manufacturers, and other software and services providers to engage on a safe platform. They are promoting the IOT (internet of things) concept here, showing smart augmented reality glasses, as well as vehicle to x and bike to x communications that could improve safety (alerting drivers and riders to each other). While some of the concepts may not play out in the immediate future, it's exciting to imagine this ecosystem growing from a foundation of hardware and data supported across all future Bosch powered electric bikes.
Forum discussion, high resolution images, and the official press releases are all posted in the ElectricBikeReview.com forums here electricbikereview.com/forums...
0:00 Bosch eBike Systems Model Year 2022 Press Event, new Smart System hardware
0:20 Overview of existing non-compatible Bosch eBike hardware (motors, batteries, displays)
2:43 Introducing Kiox 300, LED Remote, eBike Flow App, IOT Platform (V2X, B2X, others)
8:23 Communications backbone concept, supporting third party apps and hardware
9:04 Bosch ebike history in North America, my own reliability and support experiences
10:55 Thoughts on scope of Bosch ebike products, simplifying and lowering price?
12:50 Purpose of video, staying objective, getting good answers to questions
13:27 Bosch Smart System official concepte video
15:13 Press release 1: high level overview, reading with examples and my thoughts
25:08 Press release 2: Smart System vision, reading with examples and my thoughts - Авто та транспорт
Questions and answers:
- The 5 dots do represent 10 steps because each dot can change from green to orange when it is half drained
- The new PowerPak 750 battery is 36 volt, 20.1 amp hours, 723.6 watt hours
- Riese & Müller, CUBE, Haibike, BULLS, Centurion, Ghost, Pole all have Smart System models listed now
- LED Control Pad does not appear to be dimmable
My LED control now dims automatically in the dark!
Thanks for this, Court! I’ve really appreciated your reviews, and last week, after exhaustive research, I ordered a Riese and Müller dual-battery Homage vario - and I was able to do this at a local bike shop! I’m still researching Bosch systems to learn more about what my bike will have, and was a little concerned about the bike (which will not be here for a couple months), already being obsolete with the “older” Bosch technology. Your detailed explanation here has helped me confirm that I made the right decision. I know in this day and age technological advancements are made quickly, and everything we buy is rushing headlong into obsolescence. We live in an exciting time! Your videos/reviews of the many bikes you’ve covered over the past few years have helped me decide all the features and the kind of quality I want in a bike. Thanks again for your thoughtful and detailed explanations!
If only Bosch had a throttle option! Ugh I started with a Bosch (based on your Haibike vid) and LOVED it. But with my worsening knee arthritis, some days I need to do throttle only. I know they're banned in Europe, but I keep hoping the US market will be big enough for them to add class 2 options. Particularly for people in my parents' age (60s), I feel like many would be more comfortable with a throttle option in case their mobility decreases so this seems like something they should work on for markets that allow it. (And, frankly, if we want to reduce our reliance on cars, and include people with disabilities while doing so, having the option to use a throttle should be an option everywhere.)
Amen I am in my early 70's and I don't think they either understand or care about this very important issue nor maybe they are all in there 40s and think they will always have the strength and dexterity. A limited throttle is used differently for we older people. Bosch missed again !
This is great! With all the connectivity Bosch will know exactly where you ride, the speed you ride, and can share the information with the government if they ask for it. Imagine the possibilities....on a trail where you aren't allowed to use an ebike, the Bosch system shuts off the motor against your will, because they know where you are thanks to your phone's GPS.
I would rather have a non-connected system.
Well... I feel you on some of that government over-reach stuff, especially with all of the quantitative easing and virtue signaling in modern times. However, it seems that you can just leave your mobile phone at home and use the LED control pad for a non-connected experience. It also seems like they will have an optional Connect Module hardware device for theft prevention and GPS tracking, but that can be skipped. All things considered, there are ways around the concerns you address, but I share the same concerns and believe in individual liberty and freedom.
Agreed! eBike big brother...
They have all that information now with my Bosch Ebike. Doesn’t worry me in the slightest and I cycle anywhere I want.
Hope Bosch doesn't go that super techie route. Overcomplicating things will only make them harder to work with, more expensive to maintain and more things to brake that you need to fix.
Sure, some improvements are welcome, but why everything these days needs to be "connected"? One thing I love about going for a bike ride is the opportunity to disconnect. I don't want to be notified for every freaking thing and I certainly don't want to be bothered with system updates and having to fiddle with buttons, displays and menus.
Simplicity is what made bikes so awesome and future proof. Let's keep it that way.
That’s a really interesting perspective, Miguel. I tend to ride my mountain bike as a way to get into nature and meditate. But, I also commute by bike and see how the clock, driver proximity alerts, light enhancements etc. would make it safer or more convenient. It seems like their open Smart System will enable third parties to create stuff, but you can also choose to not wear smart glasses or use the app. It appears that you would have the option to even just use the LED remote pad to really simplify.
A speedometer and battery level/range estimate is all I've ever needed, from commuting or relaxing on my purion bike and delivering for work on intuvia cargo bikes 🤷♂️.
I bought a bosch because of the natural feeling motor and the reliability, not for it to be an oversized smartphone (that I already often have mounted on my bike anyway)
Way to much for my old brain to digest but a great report Court. I remember your early videos and after my first ebike an IZip I went back to pedal power. 😃
I'm going to have to be happy with the Yamaha Cross Core.
Nice to see you in a video without a helmet 🙂👍🏻
Great video! Nice new products from Bosch
Thanks a bunch Erik! I shot this multiple times and kept going back and asking Bosch questions and expanding the scope. I thought of it like a podcast and a reaction to their press releases and concept video. I learned a lot and had fun with it!
I was in the process of buying a top of the range R&M but due to C19 they have only the old technology 2021 models in stock, so after your excellent video I think I will wait for the new ‘Smart’ models to come in
Great content, very informative and clear thanks ;)
Very good review as usual Cort. I'll stay with my 52v Bafang BBSHD 1500+watt 160nm 'dumb' drives though...
I feel you, and thanks for the encouragement! I spent extra time trying to fact check and get all of my questions answered here before digging in... still didn't get it all perfect (battery does have 10 increments, just color based vs. actual dots). I like Bosch, but some of these updates felt a little concerning, and I already feel like the line can be a little overwhelming.
I also completely agree that the number of motors in the Bosch line is absurd. I can’t keep track of which one is good at what. The naming scheme also sucks and offers few clues as to which one is more or less powerful.
Yeah, the Performance Sport vs. Performance Speed and Active vs. Active Plus seems too granular and actually end up being frustrating to me vs. exciting and appreciated.
Dont like the battery, too long to carry as a spare.
Very wary of bosch, why make it simple when you can make it complicated, should be written over the company door.
What’s your favorite drive system right now? Is there a brand you like? I’m a big fan of the Specialized SL drive system.
I was wondering if this new powertube 750 will suits my 2021 Cube Stereo Hybrid 160 SL which is currently equipped with 625w powertube?
Thank you
Very nice review! Is there any info out yet on whether Riese and Muller or Gazelle will be utilizing the new Bosch system in 2022?
Thanks Kevin! Great question, I wasn’t provided with any information about brands that will be using the system, but I suspect it will be “all of them” who currently build with Bosch. My guess is that this definitely includes R&M, because they seem to adopt the best highest-end tech. Gazelle is also large and high quality, so I suspect we will see some of their models too. I’ll ask for more info, and see what they say :)
Great Video, Can you please review Trek Allant+ 8S?
Dose that mean the smart system is not compatible with the Allant+ 8S 2022 model?
Question: when we will have a way to transport heavy bikes or ebikes in the car recomended by Bosch? I have a Haibike and its impossíble for me to use my Thule Proride, to fix then, at the PowerTube.
Always appreciate your videos, thank you.
My new smart system has been nothing but problems with connectivity. The Intuvia isn’t connecting to the controller. My bike shop is going to install the hardwired Kiox 300 to solve this problem. Anyone else have this problem?
Will the battery building safety vid be back up ? I had an elert set to watch the premiere but it says private video now
Hmm, I'm not sure which video you mean? I've done battery repacking tours with FTH Power in the past, here's a post about it: electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/ebike-battery-replacement-repair-service.26997/
Please ask Bosch why 1 of the 2 batteries on my 2020 R&M Supercharger2 sometimes charges less than 100% when charging from the frame charge port. It's not always the same battery either. Thanks.
Hmm, that’s really interesting. I haven’t spent a lot of time with their dual battery system, but it sounds like the charge and discharge is meant to be even so one pack doesn’t endure more cycles over time and degrade faster. In reality, the system switches back and forth between the packs vs being truly simultaneous. My guess is that when charging, one pack will hit 100% and the controller will halt further charging even though the second pack is a bit shy of 100%. The difference in charge level may be the gap in that switching logic. Since the bike probably gets discharged to different levels each ride, re-charging would play out differently as the charger balanced filling between the two. I wonder if you could take the under-filled pack off, charge it independently, and see it reach 100%?
I see this on my gazelle madeo dual battery bike too.
The backwards compatibility issues, always makes me mad. Shimano at least understands this concept, making it Backwards compatible. Take a look at the EMBN episode about pedal assist motors at EuroBike 2021, I want to see more of this NEW pedal assist motor which has the same hole pattern as Shimano, 90nm of torque, and 130 RPMs Oli [Motor Edge]
Bosch has always been a fantastic company with great products. I have my dad's old Bosch drill...not cordless. It's a tank. Can't kill it. Made in Germany. The bike that your uncle has....i have the almost exact bike.....slightly different colours without the white ring around the motor cover. I've only done 1,800 kilometres on it so just over 1,000 miles. It's like brand new. And the battery is still in great condition as i always bring it inside with me and leave it on 50% charge for longevity. I wonder if i can still get a battery for that bike? And will i be able to get the same pattern on the battery? I will enquire.
The only thing i wish i could do is add a second battery to it so i could get more range and/or use the bike in a higher level of assistance for longer. I considered upgrading to a newer generation ebike but i will lose a lot of money in buy and sell. Maybe i can make a simple modification where i can add a second battery? Or even add a throttle function somehow? I imagine this would be near impossible with the Bosch electronics. Love your content mate. Cheers from Australia.
Hey Jimbo! Yeah, I think their batteries are pretty locked down. You might be able to wire up some second battery interface, but risk having the controller system not recognize it. Best bet is probably just to take an additional battery in a backpack. This is why I like the PowerPack design so much. It's compact and lightweight! As for throttles, I talk with the Bosch marketing reps about this very frequently. They don't make design and engineering decisions, and are mostly just there to answer questions. I'm glad there is competition from Pedego, Rad, Bafang, Blix, DOST, and many other brands who do have throttles, even with mid-motors :)
@@ElectricBikeReview yeah that's what I'm thinking too mate. Just get another battery. Unfortunately in Australia there aren't as many brands of e bikes available and I found out yesterday from the e bike shop I bought my Haibike from that because of covid, Haibike has pulled out of Australia! So you can't get a Haibike anymore. Unreal! But he can get me a battery in 3 days from the Bosch centre here in Melbourne.
I asked him about mid drives with throttle and he said no he only has bikes with mid drive only like Focus, Kalkhoff, Giselle etc. So we'll see! I really appreciate your reply mate! I've been watching you for years and love your content. Cheers and all the best, Jim.
ooh.. That bike you showed with your uncle, really like that sorta design and that tyre size, i'm new to this but basically looking for that exact bike with the new new bosch system, do you have anything in mind like that you could point me in the direction of? thanks
When will stuff show up in bikes?
Ça va donner quelles perspectives en Dual Battery ?? Si tu as une idée avec plaisir....?? Je penses en autres à Riese & Müller, il annoncerait du nouveau pour le printemps...??? 🤔
Des prévisions en Dual Battery avec cette nouvelle Power Tube 750kw....??.? 🤔
Where links???
Hi Lazer! You mean time stamp links or link to the EBR forums discussion and end card? I'm still working on the video... This one took extra time and I've had some personal chores slowing me down this week.
When the battery just "clicks in", it most likely means that the anti-theft part of the mechanism is based on a spring, which can be easily bypassed compared to a rotating cylinder lock. Ease of use vs 1000$ of stolen battery!
Lock picking lawyer would be so disappointed
I appreciate the perspective. This user experience is more difficult and time consuming for me, and it introduces more possibilities for drops (which can cause damage). It seems like none of the other major drive systems have battery interfaces that require an unlock to re-insert the battery. I feel like it’s possible to be secure and convenient and I’d love to see Bosch and their partners figure that out.
I still like bosch but this is just a dumb move to do this right after they release the new nyon. New nyon is now old nyon. Nonsense. I just doubt it's going to be very intriguing for many people. Sounds like classic planned obsolescence as they gave no reasons why they can't be reverse compatable. The motors are already synched up to the bosch computer screens. They're being greedy. I think it makes bosch look less professional in an industry that's already replete in vehicles that have no spare parts or assurance of available parts for the life of the vehicle. Ebike motor systems like bosch are leaving the door wide open to competition from a company similar to bosch with bigger batteries and consistent reverse compatibility.
You communicated that well, but I'm reluctant to believe that it's about planned obsolescence. These guys seem relaxed, truly caring about the environment, they have a strong emphasis on social and environmental values. Maybe I'm just drinking the Kool Aid or something, but I feel like there must have been a reason for the hard break... especially with the CX motors being basically the same except for someports. I think there is extra communication or some extra sensors here that are necessary for the Smart System. I could totally be wrong, it would be nice to know the "truth" behind the decision, it is frustrating... but the biggest thing to me is how the range of hardware feels much more cluttered than the "old days" about 5 years ago before there were Active Line and Cargo etc. and the batteries were all PowerPack. I want to get better and grow, but I have a lot of complaints about the new products, and feel that Cobi was an unnecessary and distracting acquisition. But again, maybe they acquired talent or IP that we don't know about. I'm reluctant to judge too much, but I do feel some discomfort like you're expressing.
@@ElectricBikeReview i want to know if bosch is still making the old 2010-2021 (guessing at the years but i think you know what i mean) batteries or not. And will i be able to buy a spare battery 10 or 20 years from now. We shouldn't expect worse service on our bosch ebikes than people expect from car dealers, that's why we pay so much for these.
Now if only my dealer could handle any warrenty issues and at least half the dealers could make out of warrenty repairs.
I do think eliminating a display, so I can use my phone instead, is the best idea ever. No display can do more than my phone. Why not use it?
Yeah, smartphones are super powerful, durable, and have great displays. The downside is that they can be large and heavy, the sun can be hard on the display, and they need to be charged during heavy use (like GPS). This is why I'm such a fan of USB charging ports on ebikes, so you can connect and use your phone or other portable electronic device for longer periods :D
COLOUR is over-rated! Intuvia display with more voltage for charging is all I really need. *I want to RIDE the bike NOT READ the bike.*
Yeah, I really like that display. It was easy to read, removable, had USB charging, the best remote button pad that was easy to press. I kind of feel like some of these things got worse with newer systems :/
@@ElectricBikeReview Thanks, as always Court!
I'm more of a tech geek than most, and this makes my eyes glaze over. Seamless, endless connectivity is almost antithetical to the joy of a bike ride. Bosch is misguided, bringing modern life's sensory overload into our bike rides, intruding on the simple joy of pedaling away.
And then there's the business part of this: Are these "bike of tomorrow" features more desirable than the higher powered, less expensive alternatives from Bafang and others? Who wants feature bloat? So much of what's discussed here are solutions that few have ever asked for. I'm guessing most people would favor less overdesigned motors/control systems, such as Bafang, especially when this press release talks of features that are actually a turn-off for many people.
Lastly, this whole system stinks of an eventual subscription-based business model. I can imagine a day when you get a monthly bill for your 10 Nm upgrade to your bike. I'll pass.
I hear you Eric, and share similar preferences for bike riding. I think the success of simpler more affordable ebikes speaks to this. Rad Power Bikes comes to mind, but they also went with more complex displays recently... I would have loved to see a RadRover with small price increase and no changes other than hydraulic disc brakes. Batteries would have been backwards compatible, display already had USB ports, the components all worked great. It seems like there is pressure to "get better" with so many products. I feel it with my own website, but I try to really think through who all of this is for, my ego? or the visitors etc. I thought that when doing this extra long and late video on the Bosch announcement, and it's reflected in the low view numbers, but I wanted to dig deep and learn for myself while being accurate vs. knee jerk. I'm happy with the outcome here, and excited about some future EBR updates. I suspect that each bike manufacturer has their own motivations and input limitations like the parts suppliers pushing new hardware that's not backwards compatible, whether they want it or not.
Bosch expensive fancy BMS and chargers no thanks, oh Justin from Grin did hack charger I seem to remember, think I will stick to Bafang easy to repair and easy to obtain spares ..
Grin does some pretty cool stuff!
The ebike market needs Makita and Milwaukee. Tool batteries are a lot more useful / available than all the other bicycle only solutions.
Are you talking about an industry standard that could be used on multiple brands of bikes? I’d like to hear more of your vision on this, because I’m familiar with those tool brands.
One more reason for me to never buy a Bosch eBike!..........
What are the aspects of this new update that you find repellant or disappointing? I think it’s interesting that in some ways, things could be simpler than before with the LED Control Pad and no display or app required to ride.
Really? A 39 minute video of you basically reading press releases?
I wanted to explore the recent past with Bosch products, provide a high level overview of the Smart System launch, explore how Bosch approaches the space and the pros and cons of their design decisions, and then deep dive on these press releases because there are many small details that could have a big impact… so I did that, and it ended up taking a while :D
`This guy always talks too much on every video. Also whats up with his nose, he needs to see a Doctor.
@@ActivityPhoto there's nothing wrong with his nose. He's not modeling so why would his face matter anyway. He's a good guy leave him alone
@@ActivityPhoto That’s what’s great about UA-cam… those with lower intelligence, shorter attention spans, and obsession with superficial appearance can just follow those content creators who appeal to that demographic. Don’t feel bad… there are a lot of you out there!
I want to watch but your voice is like fingers on a blackboard.