Yeah I was thinking, even just to break up enemy lines on the advance so they end up disorganized and bloodied by the time they reach your bloodthirsty wall of black iron.
@@schnitzelfritzel6287 And that's why you have Gobbos holding the line. Get some Crown of Command and let them hold while bombarded and killed by "friendly" fire lol
This is gonna be the ancient salamander 2.0 where the unit is insane in multi-player so they nerf it to shit and make it completely useless in campaign as well
the dreadquake has the massive advantage of fire while moving and also in a 360 degrees radius plus you can attach it to a demon engine to give it a nice speed and some melee capability
@@TheSpencer1000 For some arty its way better if you aim manually, I can see that being the case for a Dreadquake just for optimal placement on the earthquake
On the tabletop, the bull centaurs were well-armoured and tough but lacked offensive outpout, having only two attacks base compared to every other monstrous beast/infantry/cavalry with three attacks per model. They were also relatively afforable points-wise. They're definitely overtuned here.
Not only are they overtuned, but your also saying they are backwards in stats? Honestly I think it would be more fitting to increase their phys resist and dencrease their melee attack and maybe even charge bonus.
@@TheSpencer1000 Pretty much, yes. I'm guessing CA chose a low armour value because their models are practically naked, but if you went by their original design, they'd hover probably around 80 armor and a good deal less MA, damage, and charge bonus. They should not win a one-on-one with dragon ogres. That just feels wrong.
@@silverseer573 And I still weep over he Cairn Wraiths. On tabletop "ethereal" gave them total immunity to non-magic attacks and had 3 attacks per model, so they punched reasonably strong. In TW they are about as tough as tissue paper :P
The monster test has once again brought up such an underrated attribute, animations. Don't get me wrong but the terracotta Sentinel does so much work compared to a lot of other SEMs just because its animations are not slow as hell. When it misses an attack in a big 1v1 fight you don't have to wait 30sec for it to attack again which really limits how much misses and getting staggered can mess with those outcomes.
Used to be pretty good at some point, but the thing is, for one, they are generalists. Second, their MA and MD is frankly pretty arse for an elite infantry unit. Which is in line with almost all Greenskin infantry. Which is due to the fact that Greenskins are kind of designed around having a fuckton of melee attack buffs that simply don't apply here. Third, they simply aren't the highest possible unit tier. They're 1150 points, which isn't all that much compared to some other elite units.
Well, compared to tabletop, Black orcs are pretty heavily buffed compared to most of the competition. Meanwhile, Chaos Warriors with great weapons were stronger than swordmasters on tabletop (though there's good reason for them to be brought down a level in TWW, since Chosen are filling that true elite role and Chaos needed mid-tier infantry + their cost is about right compared to many basic infantry like empire swordsmen and marauders when compared to tabletop; most elite units have been very heavily buffed by comparison to get better stratification in TWW). Also, Black Orcs only cost 1150 and are a generalist unit with high mass and 20% less entities; they're actually more expensive per entity than Swordmasters. Swordmasters are dedicated anti-infantry and cost 1250 + have less hp and a higher entity count with a tighter formation, rendering them more vulnerable to magic/shooting. Exalted Bloodletters cost 1200, are dedicated anti-infantry, and have low armour. Chosen GWs, which are more directly comparable to black orcs, having the same entity count and a similarly general-purpose profile, cost 1450. Black Orcs perform pretty fairly for their cost in TWW.
Bull centaurs have no right to be as strong as they are. While impressive beasts, they shouldn’t be able to effortlessly curb stomp dragon ogres, and definitely shouldn’t as strong as the Summoners of Rage when they aren’t even an RoR.
Bull Centaurs are not beasts, they are Dwarves. Bull Centaurs are Chaos Dwarves who are twisted by the power of Chaos into the likeness of Hashut. They are highly intelligent and powerful beings, second only to the Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers in the Chaos Dwarf hierarchy. On the tabletop, a unit of Bull Centaurs was very much able to go toe-to-toe with a unit of Dragon Ogres, although Bull Centaurs did have larger units (6 models to 4 at the same price point). So I do agree that they shouldn't be able to curbstomp Dragon Ogres, although it should be a close match.
@@jodofe4879 I didn’t know their lore was so cool. As for how strong they should be I agree with you. They and dragon ogres should be about equal strength, and I think their similar costs reflects that.
@@jodofe4879 Not in the slightest. The only other monstrous infantry/beast that had strength AND toughness 5 like Dragon Ogres were the Fenbeasts as far as I recall, but these were rare elementals to see and usually and native to Albion. Not only that, Dragon Ogres had 4 wounds. They were by far the strongest monstrous infantry/beast. Bull centaurs should be on par (or slightly above) with Minotaurs/Kroxigorss, which is quite good. Edit: forgot the other great contestant in rules for stronges monstrous infantry,... the gorgers. I'd say is the best pure strength, but lacks equipment, armor or regen usually. But, just like Fenbeasts, they usually are solitaire creatures. But the most efficient and best combo of skill/strength/toughness and how absurdly numerous it is... the win is the troll, the chaos troll variant in particular. The only weakness really is fire and leadership, but its a nuissance for how cheap they are for what they bring.
@@guillercuastico that depends on the eddition, on 8th, the last one made for warhammer fantasy, the dragon ogres have S5 and T4, like many other monstrous units. They do still have the unually high 4W tho. That additional wound and the only 2A for the Bullcentaurs do indeed make the dragon ogers better model per model. But points wise in 8th (if we ignore leadership checks obviously), a unit of bullcentaurs of the same cost as the unit of dragon ogers has a slight % advantage to win the fight on average.
When I saw the unit list of the chaos dwarves I was thinking that it would be pretty solid against khorne (lots of fire resist) and nurgle (lots of fire damage). Being able to beat hellforged host does show that potential.
Really surprised at the results vs. ironbreakers, I don't know anything about how these things worked on tabletop, but thematically just looking at how restricted the dwarfs are with a lack of monsters, magic, mobility and slave units I thought infernal ironsworn would just be a more offensive equivalent to ironbreakers at best, if not a bit worse, but their unit card is pretty much just the same defensive stats but with much greater offensive capabilties. I'm all for elite units and was never a huge fan of dwarfs but I really have to wonder what their place is supposed to be in a setting with chaos dwarfs around
It's called powercreep. Where the chaos dwarfs win in range, magic, cav, most monster fights, infantry, artillery. But the soy faced redditor will still justify it as balanced because they cost 100 gold more haha.
Regular Dwarves are cheaper than Chaos Dwarves by a lot, Chaos Dwarves seem like they'll have very small armies if you don't go for a ton of labourers, which is lore accurate honestly
the bull centaurs do seem to have gotten a little overtuned under the concept of being the core anti-large unit of the roster, everything else seems fairly appropriate, immortals make sense because while they can go toe to toe with stuff at first, they are much weaker in consecutive battles due to no longer having that undying will buffer. Gobbos I was upset to see being far too good!
I love this, who has the strongest infantry in the CA’s warhammer fantasy? Chaos Chosen? High elf sword masters? Temple guard? No it’s actually chaos dwarves the faction that specializes in war machines and ranged. Who has the strongest cavalry? Chaos knights? Grail knights? Blood knights? No it’s actually the chaos dwarves the faction that specializes in war machines and ranged. I don’t care if they have strong infantry or cavalry and I would honestly be happy with a price hike on the cav but I just don’t think it’s very thematic.
Chaos dwarfs actually should have strong infantry, the dwarf race is literally one of the best melee combatants, in the setting, the problem is that they are supposed to be hampered by numbers, there monstrous cav is also just blatantly OP
It is wrong to say that Chaos Dwarves are just known for war machines and ranged. War machines may be the most iconic element of the faction, but Chaos Dwarves have always had those really strong infantry and monstrous cavalry options as well. Both lore-wise and on the tabletop their units were always some of the strongest units around. They were also really expensive though (both in terms of points and in terms of real-world money) so they were somewhat rare to see and their units were always pretty small. Lore-wise, the Chaos Dwarf population is pretty small as well. They originally were only a small subsection of the Dwarf Empire, so their population was always smaller than that of the Dwarfs proper. And Dwarfs aren't exactly known for being a high-population race in the first place since Dwarfs in general only reproduce slowly. That means that the Chaos Dwarfs rely on elite warriors, constructs and lots and lots of expendable slave soldiers to offset the disadvantage of their small population. Finally, they worship Chaos, and just like how Chaos-worshiping Humans become stronger than regular Humans because they are empowered by Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs also become stronger than regular Dwarfs. And Dwarfs are already quite strong and very skilled melee fighters, so it should not be a surprise that the Chaos Dwarfs are even more fearsome in melee. Even more so if they get fully twisted by Hashut into becoming Bull Centaurs.
I think it would be interesting so see the bull centaurs vs Crushers with great weapons (who is one of the strongest anti lange cavs in the whole game). Or maybe against war bear riders
I saw the Bull centaurs consistently overperform their value in multiplayer yet I just thought naively they were just really good. From this video its clear they are OP. The rest of the roster is really strong but either have clear downsides (blunderbuss limited range and Fireborns vulnerability) or is very expensive (fireglaives, Destroyer or the dreadquake) which means they are more or less balanced.
For the holding type units, I'd love to see a time based challenge where you throw say the exalted bloodletters or ho masters at them and see what holds longest. Would allow for good testing of the bomb packs effects too.
Yep, they are abandoned in a corner. The Dwarfs roster lack "monster" units of any kind, they don't even have a proper soundtrack, weaker than Chaos Dwarfs at every level... it's a shame really. You can argue the Empire, Norsca and Bretonnia are also puny if compared to Chaos armies (which means Chaos is a literal power up). But it is what it is, the greatest failure of TW Warhammer relies on the balance, how they butcher/omit content and add then later as overpriced DLC, but this extra content only creates escalations and power creeps, the old can't keep up with the new and it's up for the own players to mod and figure it out a way to make these things balanced and more enjoyable. To sum up: "vanilla" TW is unplayable, Creative Assembly are basically the poor cousins of Bethesda, they share the same exact issues
@@RRRRRRRRR33 well in slight fairness, Dwarves have just about a complete army roster based on their tabletop representation, which they have to vet with Games Workshop. The only thing they don't have is their thunderbarges. Well guess there is things single entities like shard dragons and rune golems which are in their lorebooks, but I hear people complain about them all the time that they shouldn't have them and up in the air whether Games Workshop will let them implement them. Their mechanics do need some touching up. But Norsca and Bretonnia need it more right now.
@@GS-ng3ec It's not like every faction needs access to every unit type, in fact limitations are good because that makes factions more unique... however, Thunderbarges are fancy artillery who can soak up damage, they are not really monsters in the classical sense, they can't duel with a carnosaur for example (that would look goofy as hell). There's no cavalry... so really, it's cool because the Dwarfs are very thematic, slow, defensive lines that never breaks, etc.. but then you present a reskin of the Dwarfs that are way stronger, have magic, every kind of unit, etc.. it's just demoralizing in a way, feels like the previous purchases were wasted because they feel antiquated and they are only integrated in the "new" game by force (Warhammer had one game, then two expansions disguised as sequels, no reason to sugar coat). Makes no sense with the lore as well, why the hell the Chaos Dwarfs did not enslaved the Ogres and took over the western mountains? That's the issue of nonstop escalation, especially now with the Chaos factions being highlighted, they are overpowered by design, it kinda breaks the "plot" so to speak, how the hell the forces of order are even alive at this stage, with Daemons invading, Chaos mutations, etc.. hell, if it's hard to believe the Dwarfs would stand a chance, imagine the human factions like the Empire and Bretonnia? In this hostile world, humanity was not supposed to be even alive. But if Games Workshop actually wrote things better, do not make Chaos the literal final boss of a tabletop game, then maybe things could be more contextualized... but that's not the case, CA with their game adaptation is overpowering the Chaos factions even more, lol
@@RRRRRRRRR33 What the armies look like and what units they get is determined by Games Workshop, not by CA. They don't have power over it since it is not their IP. They can't make up new units unless GW allows them to. And fact of the matter is that the Dwarfs have never had monsters or cavalry. And if GW has never created such units, then CA can't add it to the game. Chaos Dwarfs on the other hand have always had monsters and monstrous cavalry. It has always been one of their definining elements as a faction and it is what sets them apart from the regular Dwarfs. They have never been just a reskinned "evil" version of Dwarfs. They have always been their own faction with very different and distinctive army compositions. Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf army lists don't really resemble one another at all. Chaos Dwarf units are stronger and better than regular Dwarf units just like how Chaos Warrior units are stronger and better than Empire units. This was balanced out on the table-top by Chaos Dwarf units being significantly more expensive, so Chaos Dwarf armies usually had to make do with smaller units than regular Dwarf armies. Lore-wise, Chaos empowers Humans to be stronger and more formidable than regular Humans, and the same is true for Dwarfs. Dwarfs are already strong and formidable warriors, and a Chaos Dwarf is significantly more formidable still. The only reason they have not conquered everything yet is because of their small population. Chaos Dwarfs have always been less numerous than regular Dwarfs (who are already not a very numerous people), and since Dwarfs only reproduce very slowly, their population stays really small. Hence why they make use of cheap, expendable slave soldiers to fill out their armies. If they relied only on Chaos Dwarf warriors, their armies would be tiny. That is how the forces of order stand a chance. The warriors of Chaos may all be formidable fighters, but when they are outnumbered 10 to 1 they will still lose. What you have to understand about Warhammer lore is that it was always written as a 5 minutes to midnight scenario. The world was incredibly dangerous and the Empire and the other forces of order were always at the risk of being wiped out at any moment if any of the major bad guys (Chaos, Skaven, Greenskins) got their shit together. The only reason the forces of order survived was because their enemies usually spent most of their time fighting one another and were never really united for long enough to completely destroy the forces of order. The Empire and others only ever had to hold out and fend the enemy off for long enough until the fractious alliance of Chaos or Greenskin forces attacking them inevitably fell apart. That is why lore-wise, Archaon the Everchosen was such an incredibly massive threat. Because he was the only person with the potential of being able to really unite the forces of Chaos and completely destroy the forces of order for good. Which in the end, is exactly what he did. Chaos being overpowered doesn't break the plot, it is essential for the plot. Not only does the 'grimdark' feel of the good guys always struggling against hopeless odds make Warhammer uniquely Warhammer, Chaos making people more powerful is also essential for Chaos to exist and be a credible threat in the first place. Why would anyone sell their soul to daemons and worship Chaos if it didn't make you much more powerful? If the worshipers of Chaos weren't overpowered, they could not exist. Now that would break the plot.
@@jodofe4879 This is a played out cliche really, as you mentioned every "evil" race have the same convenient problem, they fight among themselves, they are not organized, blablabla but the ridiculous aspect of Warhammer is the power creep as we are talking all this time, a human soldier loses to pretty much everything, only goblins and skaven slaves are weaker. Their guns and magic are decent, but it's not like every other race don't have access to the same tools (they can use the same tools and they are superior by far). If this setting depicted mutated humanity facing this kind of habitat (which are the undead), that would make things a little bit more contextualized. But in the end, we're talking about lowly literature that only exists to build up the background of a tabletop game, it is poorly written for a reason. If before this game things were not fully expose to the general public who didn't knew Warhammer before TW was a thing, how the evil side in Warhammer is levels beyond, now it is fully exposed. Even the Dwarfs who were always formidable, they look puny in comparison to their Chaos reskin, then really, it's a universe that is unbalanced on purpose, then use convenient excuses to justify why everything didn't went to hell already (and when things go to hell, in that "End Times" series, the fanbase complained... so it's a weird IP who have weird fans)
Hmm I remember dwarf ironbreakers being among the strongest infantry in the game, stronger than hammerers, especially with blasting charges. The Ironsworn may be able to take out any other infantry unit if they use their blasting charges. Id be interested in seeing it!
Those Bull Centaurs certainly seem underpriced at their current statline. Also, the fact that they or any of the bull units get scaly skin is frankly quite silly, though especially so for the centaurs, since their front half is literally just mutant dwarf skin.
9:14 The chosen at the very bottom of the screen kills an immortal with a clean decapitation, and then the immortal with his head cut off kills the chosen with his deathblow. Perfect
So what I got from this is that the best thing that can happen to Brettonian peasants is to be captured by the Chaos Dwarf slavers. Better work conditions, food and pay.
hoping for a nerf for the bullcentors they do seem OP for what they are supposed to be also a little concerning that the infernal oathsworn just seem blatantly better than ironbreakers
The bull centaurs might hit too hard for their cost, but we gotta remember that they are lightly armored and big models too, so they will be alot easier to shoot down than something like the demigryph knights or skull crushers
One factor which isn`t mentioned here is the unitcap...especially for the bullcentaurs, in campain its quite expencive to enlarge your unitpool... I think thats why they are cheaper... in theory as soon as you can build those other cavalrys you can spam whole armys of them as long you have the money, which isn`t the case for bullcentaurs
The thing that this test type with the bull centaurs doesn't randomise for is speed. Bull centaurs have 62 speed, so while they can take the SOR in a head to head fight, SOR should run circles around them, and without their charge bonus, it would probably prove a much different outcome. That being said, they are still probably overtuned
Immortals were impressive. As for the Bulls, the lack of armor keeps them open to missile fire unlike the others being compared. An example, 50 armor bulls vs 130, bronze shield Skullcrushers kinda isnt fair, but I also believe the ones being tested against the bulls need price drops because they don't do their job efficiently either. Kinotaurs at 1300 do a better job at dealing with heavy cav than most of the units tested against the bulls in this vid. Should the bulls get a price increase... I dont know. Skirmish/light cav, missile units, and dogs that cost 1/3 of the bulls might be able to bring them down depending on the type. In a vacuum they're great at their job, but on the flip side they're more susceptible to things most other heavy cav would be able to handle, on top of being slower at 62 speed.
depending on the bull centaur's missle resist it might be fine with minimal adjustment, given that they only have 50 armour so should get seriously messed up by volleys of crossbows or the like compared to the other anti large cavalry
I would like to see video of who is the best ranged unit, not against each other, but against armored single entity, unarmored sigle entity, and same with multiple entity unit.
@@darthplagueis13 i dont think the chance of hitting doesnt decrease terribly when a unit is moving, because theres room of inaccuracy along the axis/direction the unit is moving in
@@sceema333 Yes, but there's room for the inaccuracy to be greater, which is especially relevant for weapons like the Dreadquake that rely on its large AoE. A shot that might clip an idle unit could miss by a mile. Ranged units in this game don't lead their shots, meaning the dreadquake won't aim infront of an enemy unit, but rather right at it. In fact, mortar style units are more affected by whether the target is moving than other ranged units, because their missiles shoot in a wide arc and therefore take longer to impact. Plus, other ranged units tyically don't have much of a risk of overshooting their target.
@@darthplagueis13 What? Ranged units do in fact lead their shots. That's how dodging missiles works in the first place. You just run around in a circle and the lead means the unit always fires outside the circle.
@@darthplagueis13 every ranged unit in the game leads shots, you can see this by taking a cav unit and charging it at an archer, then when they fire order it to go the other way, the shots will land where they would be, not in the blob they are in now, with infantry the effect is much smaller
I love these vids. I think you could maintain a lot of content for a long time with just this format. I know you have done a lot of them, but everytime, they are entertaining no matter what type of setup you use. I do like the olymipic style ones, with the timer format.
What you said in the cavalry section makes a lot of sense but isnt black and white like that, sometimes a unit is deliberately overpowered, or too cheap when compared to similar units from other factions because it is needed for the overall balance of the faction. Chaos Dwarves seem OP because of a handful of nutty units but from what ive seen from pro replays so far, they seem pretty balanced and still lose often to certain things, its just a shame that those buff units like the bull centaurs end up being an auto include in multiplayer.
Bull Centaurs should be slightly more damaging and maybe a twitch slower then their Centagore counterparts imo. They should be nowhere near Summoners of Rage.
I imagine the Chaos Dwarf and the Brettonian knight are just drinking tea together while watching this. Both more interested in the drinks than the deaths.
Krimzon Killers were the true immortals, but goT wrecked in WH3. Despite their tag "armed to da teef", their splash damage got removed for some MA and AI-bonus, yet they perform worse than black orcs of higher rank, especially when you consider all the buff mechanics to MA for Orcs. In Wh2 they had "Splash Target Size = small" and "Splash Max Attacks = 2", which made them cleave through infantry sized units and below. For other units with higher Splash Target size or an higher amount of Splash Max Attacks, this can be detrimental, when your damage gets too much distributed, but for Krimzon Killers it was generally good, as they had abnormal high hit damage for small sized entities with a unit roster of 80 entities, since they only distributed this high hit damage on 2 targets and it even reduced overkill. That way they absolute chopped any trash units and with buffs did the same with any elite infantry in the game. In Wh3 they have around 13 higher melee attack against infantry but no splash-damage. Without any buffs they perform a bit better vs elite infantry like Har Ganeth executioners, but much worse against any trash units and also against elite units with buffs like waagh or "sneaky gits" or "ere we go" or scrap metal or simply campaign buffs. They took away what made them special and gave them the potential to be absolutely devastating with proper use in exchange for ease-of-use-standarts. RIP - now Grimgor does not only have fucking chaos stunties before his door, now he also lost the Immortals.
I do think Renderers are a *bit* overtuned, but one thing to consider is their low armor basically means in the chaos of fighting, they're more likely to take high damage than, say, skullcrushers
I miss the look of the older Bull Centaurs. These look more like Beastmen. In the really old books, they were bedecked with fancy armor and jewelry, because they were so pampered by the Sorcerer Prophets.
While these fights are cool. I would also love to see some tests of units against the things they are meant to fight. Put the kadai against a group of elite infantry for example. Same with similar units from other factions and see how they perform compaitively.
I dunno how much of a factor it will be or if it applies for multiplayer batles but don't forget in campaign atleast the chaos dwarfs have a limit to how many you can have which will definately balance things out for them a little
Also the Campaign mechanic limiting the chaos dwarf recruitment of most units will be a factor not just the initial price in this they will be worse off than the Beastmen still having to pay upkeep.
When you slow down a clip in Vegas, try right clicking the audio track and tick "lock to stretch" without it the slowed down parts sound horrible (4:25)
considering the bull centaurs are an anti large AP cavalry / monstrous unit with lowish armor... when going up against others of the same they should have the advantage when the other has high armor as part of their thing if you consider each strength as a point in balance. (bull centaurs would be using all of their strengths with the "other" unit only using some of their strengths) i think a better matchup would be anti large cavarly / monstrous, but WITHOUT AP, and high armor, that way both units are playing to all of their advantages
What happens if you put the immortals in a column so that only a few dwarves fight in the front? Do those dwarves just reach 1hp and stay immortal since the unit health is still above 75%?
The immortals having deathblow might be to do with the infernal guard and ironsworn getting it in campaign the the Karak Kadrin landmark and somone made an error with the coding of the custom battle versions.
For swordmaster and chosen you should have put them chevron 9 since they are not a RoR. And Chosen of nurgle rank 9 are definitively the biggest threat.
@@fatherceltics2379 not that true actually. After many livestreams and showcases, Chaos dwarfs are not looking to be overly too powerful, sure couple units are but majority looks to be on par.
OK, when it comes to the monstrous cav, THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. Those stupid bull centaurs need to cost WAY MORE. Not happy with that balancing BS given the cost of other units that got schwacked against them.
Bull centaurs are quite easy to kill, tho. Everything that can do a skirmisher job will rekt them. They are unarmored, unshielded for the most interesting of them, and slow for a cavalry-ish type of monster. Minotaurs basically do their jobs but better in every way, as I see it. Long-ranged archers can probably destroy most of them before they catch them. You can also punish them by everything that takes them from two sides. Khorne's cav is heavily armored and shielded. They will be able to endure more, more threats. Comparing cavalry on a 1v1 basis against other cav is not really a good way to see if they are effective. What's the point of a slow and squishy cavalry, anyway? At best they are good at killing monstrous infantry, but they are glasscanon, and not fast enough to always make a difference.
The infernal Guard comparison to Ironbreakers seems way off. +10 WS with roughly the same combat stats at about the same price? Yeesh. Ironbreakers probably need a WS buff, 32 is quite low for their tier (see buffs to Marauder Champs and upcoming changes to Tzar Guard).
Don't forget the blasting charges are just better then the iron breakers charges, and the extra range means they'll get the second volley in for most fights
@@calebbarnhouse496 I do think the chaos dwarf charges need a bit of toning down (really all thrown explosives do), but they aren't strictly better. Lower damage higher AP means they bust armor more effectively but against mid to low values the greater ammo pool and higher raw damage of the Ironbreakers would put them ahead. If the combat performance was closer together outside of the Blasting Charges I could see that being a reasonable trade off for the higher price. A 10 WS difference on the other hand is way more impactful and adds far more potential damage over a battle.
@@spellbound1875 the thing your ignoring is the linger range on those charges, ensuring they are gonna get second volleys FAR more often before melee is engaged, which means the other guy is screwed, next while the difference in damage is negligible, and unarmored units being sent into iron breakers is a non issue as like 5 units in the game have no armor and AP and of them none of them have the melee attack to do any damage to ironbreakers, so a negligible difference in damage in blasting charges is made into better d Damage against the things that need it, better throwing stats, and better disruption, beyond that, most thrown explosives are fine, miners are just reliant on them to be able to do anything except beat artillery in melee
@@calebbarnhouse496 I do agree the blasting charges need to be toned down and your points around the gained value are solid, but I really think you're downplaying the damage difference in melee. 10 WS is a 33% increase per attack, I don't see how that's negligible. Even into high armor it adds up to a massive lead in sustained combat for the Ironsworn. They have combat stats similar to marauder champions while Ironbreakers have damage output comparable to shielded Gor Herds. Like, even if both units beat the same infantry Ironsworn and Infernal guard will win the combat much faster and taking much less chip damage. It's a much bigger performance difference. I also strongerly disagree that thrown explosives are in a good place. Bombers, Poison Globes, and Blasting charges basically make infantry combat a non-starter into the 3 factions and push other missiles out of the meta given they just can't compete damage wise. The fix to explosive damage generally was necessary but it massively buffed these units and they need to be reigned in.
@@spellbound1875 I only said the difference in total damage between the AP blasting charges and the unarmored blasting charges were negligible, the melee differences are stupid, next bombers are so weak they are easy to kill, so I wouldn't even say they are an issue, the problem with globdiers is that they are able to hit multiple units at once with full force because 99 percent of there damage output comes from an effect they out on infantry, not themselves, they actual projectiles are really weak, the method of delivery is just broken, and when it comes to blasting charges, dwarfs are bullied hard due to there terrible speed, armor being easy to invalidate, gyros being incredibly fragile to any ranged unit even with high armor, and then there artillery has a tendency to bleed models very quickly, blasting charges as they are now is because they have 2 options when it comes to cheap infantry, dwarf warriors of there 2 flavors, and miners, again, 2 flavors, dwarf warriors are more expensive and worse against preety much anything that isn't a dwarf warrior, while the miner is absolutely useless with there stats, the blasting charge is just a cheap upgrade that makes the body a tax to bring them, if miners were in a good spot balance wise, then the blasting charge miners wouldn't be necessary, and in great weapon dwarf warriors were viable, then when you look at the dwarf frontlines you'd have more then just things with shields to shoot at
The ironsworn is my new favorite 😍 unit for both style and functionality. Whats soo amazing about them is that thier stack with attack types of damage! This makes them outright Overpowered and dangerous!
The Ironbreaker blasting charge actually has a lot more explosive AP than the Ironsworn, who have more direct hit AP. I've tried it out and in most cases the Ironbreakers win out.
The Ironbreaker vs Infernal Ironsworn fight was not short by any stretch of the imagination.
Well, it was short in one way (they're both dawi).
You said SHORT???
Immovable force vs Immovable force
@@Nota-Skaven (they're not moving)
@@joachimwalle3760 SHOOOORT?!
The dreadquake mortar seems insane at holding chokepoints with that earthquake after-effect.
chokepoint maps are gonna be the chaos dwarf special with that dreadquake and a good amount of firearms
Yeah I was thinking, even just to break up enemy lines on the advance so they end up disorganized and bloodied by the time they reach your bloodthirsty wall of black iron.
Here's hoping you can manual aim them with alt. Otherwise you'd slaughter your own army once the lines clash lol
@@schnitzelfritzel6287 And that's why you have Gobbos holding the line. Get some Crown of Command and let them hold while bombarded and killed by "friendly" fire lol
@@pablonunalvares5391”happy skaven noises”
Those Bull Centaurs need either a price hike or a nerf. Didn't expect them to beat the ROR Dragon Ogres.
95% of players only play campaign not multiplayer so I doubt CA will balance the price of units very quickly
@@RicardoSanchez-es5wl Nerf the stats, they are ridiculous to begin with.
Yeah, they're insane. I saw them in action during Turin's stream and they just rolled over everything they met.
Please no nerf. I hate when things are nerfed for multiplayer. A price hike would be fine though
This is gonna be the ancient salamander 2.0 where the unit is insane in multi-player so they nerf it to shit and make it completely useless in campaign as well
the dreadquake has the massive advantage of fire while moving and also in a 360 degrees radius
plus you can attach it to a demon engine to give it a nice speed and some melee capability
Except you can't aim it if it is attached making it way less useful.
@@Exor2 what do you mean you cant aim it? Like, it cant shoot while attached?
@@TheSpencer1000 he means aim manually
@@NotTheAbhi ah, I never knew people actually care about that honestly.
@@TheSpencer1000 For some arty its way better if you aim manually, I can see that being the case for a Dreadquake just for optimal placement on the earthquake
On the tabletop, the bull centaurs were well-armoured and tough but lacked offensive outpout, having only two attacks base compared to every other monstrous beast/infantry/cavalry with three attacks per model. They were also relatively afforable points-wise. They're definitely overtuned here.
Not only are they overtuned, but your also saying they are backwards in stats? Honestly I think it would be more fitting to increase their phys resist and dencrease their melee attack and maybe even charge bonus.
@@TheSpencer1000 Pretty much, yes. I'm guessing CA chose a low armour value because their models are practically naked, but if you went by their original design, they'd hover probably around 80 armor and a good deal less MA, damage, and charge bonus. They should not win a one-on-one with dragon ogres. That just feels wrong.
They are definitely a more generalist and defensive cavalry in terms of actual design.
Just unbalanced.
Thank God it got caught in pre release.
@@silverseer573 And I still weep over he Cairn Wraiths. On tabletop "ethereal" gave them total immunity to non-magic attacks and had 3 attacks per model, so they punched reasonably strong. In TW they are about as tough as tissue paper :P
@@1ochotnik
well vs nonmagical attacks heavily armored troops, they are really nice. at least the ones before TW3 were.
9:27 Ok. That final two-handed strike before their own demise is pretty badass! 😤
That's a slayer animation, but do slayers actually get the extra hit too?
@@Kevin-sy3jt yeah that's what deathblow is.
@Ridley did Nothing wrong oh! I always thought deathblow referred only to the below 25% health passive buff. Cool!
@@Kevin-sy3jt deathblow refers to the health passive,. The last attack is part of their animation set
The monster test has once again brought up such an underrated attribute, animations. Don't get me wrong but the terracotta Sentinel does so much work compared to a lot of other SEMs just because its animations are not slow as hell. When it misses an attack in a big 1v1 fight you don't have to wait 30sec for it to attack again which really limits how much misses and getting staggered can mess with those outcomes.
Black Orcs ranking so low in the top tier melee infantry department is an affront.
I mean, they are a Tier 4 building unit, not Tier 5.
Used to be pretty good at some point, but the thing is, for one, they are generalists. Second, their MA and MD is frankly pretty arse for an elite infantry unit. Which is in line with almost all Greenskin infantry. Which is due to the fact that Greenskins are kind of designed around having a fuckton of melee attack buffs that simply don't apply here.
Third, they simply aren't the highest possible unit tier. They're 1150 points, which isn't all that much compared to some other elite units.
They need +4 ap/+1 base damage (this augmentation is what will make them kill stuff in 1 less hit than others) and a little bit more attack.
@@darthplagueis13 yah black orcs get a lot of research buff and scrap ups help them a lot
Well, compared to tabletop, Black orcs are pretty heavily buffed compared to most of the competition. Meanwhile, Chaos Warriors with great weapons were stronger than swordmasters on tabletop (though there's good reason for them to be brought down a level in TWW, since Chosen are filling that true elite role and Chaos needed mid-tier infantry + their cost is about right compared to many basic infantry like empire swordsmen and marauders when compared to tabletop; most elite units have been very heavily buffed by comparison to get better stratification in TWW).
Also, Black Orcs only cost 1150 and are a generalist unit with high mass and 20% less entities; they're actually more expensive per entity than Swordmasters. Swordmasters are dedicated anti-infantry and cost 1250 + have less hp and a higher entity count with a tighter formation, rendering them more vulnerable to magic/shooting. Exalted Bloodletters cost 1200, are dedicated anti-infantry, and have low armour. Chosen GWs, which are more directly comparable to black orcs, having the same entity count and a similarly general-purpose profile, cost 1450.
Black Orcs perform pretty fairly for their cost in TWW.
Bull centaurs have no right to be as strong as they are. While impressive beasts, they shouldn’t be able to effortlessly curb stomp dragon ogres, and definitely shouldn’t as strong as the Summoners of Rage when they aren’t even an RoR.
Bull Centaurs are not beasts, they are Dwarves.
Bull Centaurs are Chaos Dwarves who are twisted by the power of Chaos into the likeness of Hashut. They are highly intelligent and powerful beings, second only to the Chaos Dwarf Sorcerers in the Chaos Dwarf hierarchy.
On the tabletop, a unit of Bull Centaurs was very much able to go toe-to-toe with a unit of Dragon Ogres, although Bull Centaurs did have larger units (6 models to 4 at the same price point). So I do agree that they shouldn't be able to curbstomp Dragon Ogres, although it should be a close match.
@@jodofe4879 I didn’t know their lore was so cool.
As for how strong they should be I agree with you. They and dragon ogres should be about equal strength, and I think their similar costs reflects that.
@@jodofe4879 Not in the slightest. The only other monstrous infantry/beast that had strength AND toughness 5 like Dragon Ogres were the Fenbeasts as far as I recall, but these were rare elementals to see and usually and native to Albion.
Not only that, Dragon Ogres had 4 wounds. They were by far the strongest monstrous infantry/beast. Bull centaurs should be on par (or slightly above) with Minotaurs/Kroxigorss, which is quite good.
Edit: forgot the other great contestant in rules for stronges monstrous infantry,... the gorgers. I'd say is the best pure strength, but lacks equipment, armor or regen usually. But, just like Fenbeasts, they usually are solitaire creatures.
But the most efficient and best combo of skill/strength/toughness and how absurdly numerous it is... the win is the troll, the chaos troll variant in particular. The only weakness really is fire and leadership, but its a nuissance for how cheap they are for what they bring.
@@guillercuastico that depends on the eddition, on 8th, the last one made for warhammer fantasy, the dragon ogres have S5 and T4, like many other monstrous units. They do still have the unually high 4W tho. That additional wound and the only 2A for the Bullcentaurs do indeed make the dragon ogers better model per model. But points wise in 8th (if we ignore leadership checks obviously), a unit of bullcentaurs of the same cost as the unit of dragon ogers has a slight % advantage to win the fight on average.
When I heard bull centaurs I was expecting like, centigors. Not the apocalypse on hooves
I like that the Infernal Guard-Black Orc match is a tie, since when you consider their history it's a bit of a grudge match.
Would have loved to see The Immortals (the infernal guard RoR) vs The Krimzon Killerz (the black orc RoR)
The black orc RoR is the crimson killers
Well the Black Orc RoR are The Krimzon Killerz, which are basically the immortals
@@the_dropbear4392 Ah yes, that is my mistake. Thanks for the correction
@@TheHandofDestiny True. But if I remember correctly, they have splash attacks, which might make them stronger than The Immortals
@@sfp2290 entiscity tested already Krimson killerz got beat.
When I saw the unit list of the chaos dwarves I was thinking that it would be pretty solid against khorne (lots of fire resist) and nurgle (lots of fire damage).
Being able to beat hellforged host does show that potential.
Videos like these must have taken so much time. Thanks for this video, Zerk!
Really surprised at the results vs. ironbreakers, I don't know anything about how these things worked on tabletop, but thematically just looking at how restricted the dwarfs are with a lack of monsters, magic, mobility and slave units I thought infernal ironsworn would just be a more offensive equivalent to ironbreakers at best, if not a bit worse, but their unit card is pretty much just the same defensive stats but with much greater offensive capabilties. I'm all for elite units and was never a huge fan of dwarfs but I really have to wonder what their place is supposed to be in a setting with chaos dwarfs around
They get 1k health more to boot...
Dwarfs get absolutely fucked in this matchup.
Dwarves are cheaper. Like by a lot
It's called powercreep.
Where the chaos dwarfs win in range, magic, cav, most monster fights, infantry, artillery.
But the soy faced redditor will still justify it as balanced because they cost 100 gold more haha.
Regular Dwarves are cheaper than Chaos Dwarves by a lot, Chaos Dwarves seem like they'll have very small armies if you don't go for a ton of labourers, which is lore accurate honestly
the bull centaurs do seem to have gotten a little overtuned under the concept of being the core anti-large unit of the roster, everything else seems fairly appropriate, immortals make sense because while they can go toe to toe with stuff at first, they are much weaker in consecutive battles due to no longer having that undying will buffer. Gobbos I was upset to see being far too good!
You should boost the veterancy of the units going up against the RoRs.
That dreadquake mortar projectile was beautiful!
your unit vs unit videos are really fun
I love this, who has the strongest infantry in the CA’s warhammer fantasy? Chaos Chosen? High elf sword masters? Temple guard? No it’s actually chaos dwarves the faction that specializes in war machines and ranged. Who has the strongest cavalry? Chaos knights? Grail knights? Blood knights? No it’s actually the chaos dwarves the faction that specializes in war machines and ranged.
I don’t care if they have strong infantry or cavalry and I would honestly be happy with a price hike on the cav but I just don’t think it’s very thematic.
Chaos Dwarfs the faction that specializes in big hats and winning.
Chaos dwarfs actually should have strong infantry, the dwarf race is literally one of the best melee combatants, in the setting, the problem is that they are supposed to be hampered by numbers, there monstrous cav is also just blatantly OP
@@calebbarnhouse496 i think you described elves more than dwarves
@@Marlerc11 moron
It is wrong to say that Chaos Dwarves are just known for war machines and ranged. War machines may be the most iconic element of the faction, but Chaos Dwarves have always had those really strong infantry and monstrous cavalry options as well. Both lore-wise and on the tabletop their units were always some of the strongest units around. They were also really expensive though (both in terms of points and in terms of real-world money) so they were somewhat rare to see and their units were always pretty small.
Lore-wise, the Chaos Dwarf population is pretty small as well. They originally were only a small subsection of the Dwarf Empire, so their population was always smaller than that of the Dwarfs proper. And Dwarfs aren't exactly known for being a high-population race in the first place since Dwarfs in general only reproduce slowly. That means that the Chaos Dwarfs rely on elite warriors, constructs and lots and lots of expendable slave soldiers to offset the disadvantage of their small population. Finally, they worship Chaos, and just like how Chaos-worshiping Humans become stronger than regular Humans because they are empowered by Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs also become stronger than regular Dwarfs. And Dwarfs are already quite strong and very skilled melee fighters, so it should not be a surprise that the Chaos Dwarfs are even more fearsome in melee. Even more so if they get fully twisted by Hashut into becoming Bull Centaurs.
Ironsworn vs iron breakers is like watching two solid brick walls that grew legs start having a boxing match with rubber gloves.
I think it would be interesting so see the bull centaurs vs Crushers with great weapons (who is one of the strongest anti lange cavs in the whole game). Or maybe against war bear riders
They beat war bears and trade even with gw crushers
I saw the Bull centaurs consistently overperform their value in multiplayer yet I just thought naively they were just really good.
From this video its clear they are OP.
The rest of the roster is really strong but either have clear downsides (blunderbuss limited range and Fireborns vulnerability) or is very expensive (fireglaives, Destroyer or the dreadquake) which means they are more or less balanced.
For the holding type units, I'd love to see a time based challenge where you throw say the exalted bloodletters or ho masters at them and see what holds longest. Would allow for good testing of the bomb packs effects too.
i love the chaos dwarfs but i feel so bad for the normal dwarfs rn.
Yep, they are abandoned in a corner. The Dwarfs roster lack "monster" units of any kind, they don't even have a proper soundtrack, weaker than Chaos Dwarfs at every level... it's a shame really. You can argue the Empire, Norsca and Bretonnia are also puny if compared to Chaos armies (which means Chaos is a literal power up). But it is what it is, the greatest failure of TW Warhammer relies on the balance, how they butcher/omit content and add then later as overpriced DLC, but this extra content only creates escalations and power creeps, the old can't keep up with the new and it's up for the own players to mod and figure it out a way to make these things balanced and more enjoyable. To sum up: "vanilla" TW is unplayable, Creative Assembly are basically the poor cousins of Bethesda, they share the same exact issues
@@RRRRRRRRR33 well in slight fairness, Dwarves have just about a complete army roster based on their tabletop representation, which they have to vet with Games Workshop. The only thing they don't have is their thunderbarges. Well guess there is things single entities like shard dragons and rune golems which are in their lorebooks, but I hear people complain about them all the time that they shouldn't have them and up in the air whether Games Workshop will let them implement them.
Their mechanics do need some touching up. But Norsca and Bretonnia need it more right now.
@@GS-ng3ec It's not like every faction needs access to every unit type, in fact limitations are good because that makes factions more unique... however, Thunderbarges are fancy artillery who can soak up damage, they are not really monsters in the classical sense, they can't duel with a carnosaur for example (that would look goofy as hell). There's no cavalry... so really, it's cool because the Dwarfs are very thematic, slow, defensive lines that never breaks, etc.. but then you present a reskin of the Dwarfs that are way stronger, have magic, every kind of unit, etc.. it's just demoralizing in a way, feels like the previous purchases were wasted because they feel antiquated and they are only integrated in the "new" game by force (Warhammer had one game, then two expansions disguised as sequels, no reason to sugar coat).
Makes no sense with the lore as well, why the hell the Chaos Dwarfs did not enslaved the Ogres and took over the western mountains? That's the issue of nonstop escalation, especially now with the Chaos factions being highlighted, they are overpowered by design, it kinda breaks the "plot" so to speak, how the hell the forces of order are even alive at this stage, with Daemons invading, Chaos mutations, etc.. hell, if it's hard to believe the Dwarfs would stand a chance, imagine the human factions like the Empire and Bretonnia? In this hostile world, humanity was not supposed to be even alive. But if Games Workshop actually wrote things better, do not make Chaos the literal final boss of a tabletop game, then maybe things could be more contextualized... but that's not the case, CA with their game adaptation is overpowering the Chaos factions even more, lol
@@RRRRRRRRR33 What the armies look like and what units they get is determined by Games Workshop, not by CA. They don't have power over it since it is not their IP. They can't make up new units unless GW allows them to. And fact of the matter is that the Dwarfs have never had monsters or cavalry. And if GW has never created such units, then CA can't add it to the game. Chaos Dwarfs on the other hand have always had monsters and monstrous cavalry. It has always been one of their definining elements as a faction and it is what sets them apart from the regular Dwarfs. They have never been just a reskinned "evil" version of Dwarfs. They have always been their own faction with very different and distinctive army compositions. Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf army lists don't really resemble one another at all. Chaos Dwarf units are stronger and better than regular Dwarf units just like how Chaos Warrior units are stronger and better than Empire units. This was balanced out on the table-top by Chaos Dwarf units being significantly more expensive, so Chaos Dwarf armies usually had to make do with smaller units than regular Dwarf armies.
Lore-wise, Chaos empowers Humans to be stronger and more formidable than regular Humans, and the same is true for Dwarfs. Dwarfs are already strong and formidable warriors, and a Chaos Dwarf is significantly more formidable still. The only reason they have not conquered everything yet is because of their small population. Chaos Dwarfs have always been less numerous than regular Dwarfs (who are already not a very numerous people), and since Dwarfs only reproduce very slowly, their population stays really small. Hence why they make use of cheap, expendable slave soldiers to fill out their armies. If they relied only on Chaos Dwarf warriors, their armies would be tiny. That is how the forces of order stand a chance. The warriors of Chaos may all be formidable fighters, but when they are outnumbered 10 to 1 they will still lose.
What you have to understand about Warhammer lore is that it was always written as a 5 minutes to midnight scenario. The world was incredibly dangerous and the Empire and the other forces of order were always at the risk of being wiped out at any moment if any of the major bad guys (Chaos, Skaven, Greenskins) got their shit together. The only reason the forces of order survived was because their enemies usually spent most of their time fighting one another and were never really united for long enough to completely destroy the forces of order. The Empire and others only ever had to hold out and fend the enemy off for long enough until the fractious alliance of Chaos or Greenskin forces attacking them inevitably fell apart. That is why lore-wise, Archaon the Everchosen was such an incredibly massive threat. Because he was the only person with the potential of being able to really unite the forces of Chaos and completely destroy the forces of order for good. Which in the end, is exactly what he did.
Chaos being overpowered doesn't break the plot, it is essential for the plot. Not only does the 'grimdark' feel of the good guys always struggling against hopeless odds make Warhammer uniquely Warhammer, Chaos making people more powerful is also essential for Chaos to exist and be a credible threat in the first place. Why would anyone sell their soul to daemons and worship Chaos if it didn't make you much more powerful? If the worshipers of Chaos weren't overpowered, they could not exist. Now that would break the plot.
@@jodofe4879 This is a played out cliche really, as you mentioned every "evil" race have the same convenient problem, they fight among themselves, they are not organized, blablabla but the ridiculous aspect of Warhammer is the power creep as we are talking all this time, a human soldier loses to pretty much everything, only goblins and skaven slaves are weaker. Their guns and magic are decent, but it's not like every other race don't have access to the same tools (they can use the same tools and they are superior by far). If this setting depicted mutated humanity facing this kind of habitat (which are the undead), that would make things a little bit more contextualized. But in the end, we're talking about lowly literature that only exists to build up the background of a tabletop game, it is poorly written for a reason. If before this game things were not fully expose to the general public who didn't knew Warhammer before TW was a thing, how the evil side in Warhammer is levels beyond, now it is fully exposed. Even the Dwarfs who were always formidable, they look puny in comparison to their Chaos reskin, then really, it's a universe that is unbalanced on purpose, then use convenient excuses to justify why everything didn't went to hell already (and when things go to hell, in that "End Times" series, the fanbase complained... so it's a weird IP who have weird fans)
Hmm I remember dwarf ironbreakers being among the strongest infantry in the game, stronger than hammerers, especially with blasting charges.
The Ironsworn may be able to take out any other infantry unit if they use their blasting charges. Id be interested in seeing it!
Pretty much no infantry that can beat ironsworn head on if the use their blasting charges
Those Bull Centaurs certainly seem underpriced at their current statline. Also, the fact that they or any of the bull units get scaly skin is frankly quite silly, though especially so for the centaurs, since their front half is literally just mutant dwarf skin.
@@rill2141 Yeh, and in that case, it should be reflected in their armour stat.
9:14 The chosen at the very bottom of the screen kills an immortal with a clean decapitation, and then the immortal with his head cut off kills the chosen with his deathblow. Perfect
For the bulls, I'd say they balance in how you can only have so many, but that's wild I can see a hike or nurf
So what I got from this is that the best thing that can happen to Brettonian peasants is to be captured by the Chaos Dwarf slavers. Better work conditions, food and pay.
hoping for a nerf for the bullcentors they do seem OP for what they are supposed to be also a little concerning that the infernal oathsworn just seem blatantly better than ironbreakers
The bull centaurs might hit too hard for their cost, but we gotta remember that they are lightly armored and big models too, so they will be alot easier to shoot down than something like the demigryph knights or skull crushers
playing monstrous calvary right would have them be out of the way of ranged threats
They have 25% middle resist due to scale skin tho
Plus early campaign gonna be fielding them in very small numbers, and will be picking up the slack of the trash laborer units.
9:25 you actually can see magic and fire attacks now, when they exchange blows
One factor which isn`t mentioned here is the unitcap...especially for the bullcentaurs, in campain its quite expencive to enlarge your unitpool... I think thats why they are cheaper... in theory as soon as you can build those other cavalrys you can spam whole armys of them as long you have the money, which isn`t the case for bullcentaurs
Belasarius Cawl in the pre last episode of TTS: "Yes! Feature Creep Confirmed!!!"
The thing that this test type with the bull centaurs doesn't randomise for is speed. Bull centaurs have 62 speed, so while they can take the SOR in a head to head fight, SOR should run circles around them, and without their charge bonus, it would probably prove a much different outcome. That being said, they are still probably overtuned
After seeing the Ironbreakers get dunked on: Ah there it is - the mandatory part of every CA DLC that must go out of its way to nerf the dwarfs
Imagine yourself back in the early game one days, and you see a bloodthirster fighting a kdai destroyer. Wow weve come a long way.
So excited to get my hands on these units, also was real surprised by the immortals, thought they would preform way worse ngl
I'd love to see a dreadquake mortar in a chokepoint battle, would probably anihilate hundreds
For that first fight, the Bloodletters have magical attacks as well as fire, so the fire resistance does nothing.
Immortals were impressive.
As for the Bulls, the lack of armor keeps them open to missile fire unlike the others being compared. An example, 50 armor bulls vs 130, bronze shield Skullcrushers kinda isnt fair, but I also believe the ones being tested against the bulls need price drops because they don't do their job efficiently either. Kinotaurs at 1300 do a better job at dealing with heavy cav than most of the units tested against the bulls in this vid. Should the bulls get a price increase... I dont know. Skirmish/light cav, missile units, and dogs that cost 1/3 of the bulls might be able to bring them down depending on the type.
In a vacuum they're great at their job, but on the flip side they're more susceptible to things most other heavy cav would be able to handle, on top of being slower at 62 speed.
the immortals and bull centaurs have extremely high bonus vs infantry/large
thats why they do so well
depending on the bull centaur's missle resist it might be fine with minimal adjustment, given that they only have 50 armour so should get seriously messed up by volleys of crossbows or the like compared to the other anti large cavalry
I would like to see video of who is the best ranged unit, not against each other, but against armored single entity, unarmored sigle entity, and same with multiple entity unit.
Those comments during the gobbos vs peasants had me in tears bro, thanks!!
Thanks for the comparison. Those Chaos Dwarfs seems to be some beefy guys. I love it! Can’t wait for April 13th.
You might be able to dodge the dreadquake AOE but I applies -60% speed so you're not getting out of it that easily
Well, generally it won't get as many good hits in if you keep moving.
@@darthplagueis13 i dont think the chance of hitting doesnt decrease terribly when a unit is moving, because theres room of inaccuracy along the axis/direction the unit is moving in
@@sceema333 Yes, but there's room for the inaccuracy to be greater, which is especially relevant for weapons like the Dreadquake that rely on its large AoE. A shot that might clip an idle unit could miss by a mile. Ranged units in this game don't lead their shots, meaning the dreadquake won't aim infront of an enemy unit, but rather right at it.
In fact, mortar style units are more affected by whether the target is moving than other ranged units, because their missiles shoot in a wide arc and therefore take longer to impact. Plus, other ranged units tyically don't have much of a risk of overshooting their target.
@@darthplagueis13 What? Ranged units do in fact lead their shots. That's how dodging missiles works in the first place. You just run around in a circle and the lead means the unit always fires outside the circle.
@@darthplagueis13 every ranged unit in the game leads shots, you can see this by taking a cav unit and charging it at an archer, then when they fire order it to go the other way, the shots will land where they would be, not in the blob they are in now, with infantry the effect is much smaller
The fact that you didn't pit The Immortals up against Da Immortulz is a tragedy
I love these vids. I think you could maintain a lot of content for a long time with just this format. I know you have done a lot of them, but everytime, they are entertaining no matter what type of setup you use. I do like the olymipic style ones, with the timer format.
9:22 A Slayers death
What you said in the cavalry section makes a lot of sense but isnt black and white like that, sometimes a unit is deliberately overpowered, or too cheap when compared to similar units from other factions because it is needed for the overall balance of the faction. Chaos Dwarves seem OP because of a handful of nutty units but from what ive seen from pro replays so far, they seem pretty balanced and still lose often to certain things, its just a shame that those buff units like the bull centaurs end up being an auto include in multiplayer.
Bull Centaurs should be slightly more damaging and maybe a twitch slower then their Centagore counterparts imo. They should be nowhere near Summoners of Rage.
They should be alot more damaging than centigores, as they are monsterous rather than just cav
They could use a slight nerf, but Bull Centaurs are closer to Shagoths than Centagores since they're monstrous cav
Great video, thank you Zerkovich. Can we expect a comparison video with the basic units pimp'd with armaments?
Holy fuck the Infernal Ironsworn look SO FUCKING PERFECT
I imagine the Chaos Dwarf and the Brettonian knight are just drinking tea together while watching this. Both more interested in the drinks than the deaths.
Krimzon Killers were the true immortals, but goT wrecked in WH3. Despite their tag "armed to da teef", their splash damage got removed for some MA and AI-bonus, yet they perform worse than black orcs of higher rank, especially when you consider all the buff mechanics to MA for Orcs. In Wh2 they had "Splash Target Size = small" and "Splash Max Attacks = 2", which made them cleave through infantry sized units and below. For other units with higher Splash Target size or an higher amount of Splash Max Attacks, this can be detrimental, when your damage gets too much distributed, but for Krimzon Killers it was generally good, as they had abnormal high hit damage for small sized entities with a unit roster of 80 entities, since they only distributed this high hit damage on 2 targets and it even reduced overkill. That way they absolute chopped any trash units and with buffs did the same with any elite infantry in the game. In Wh3 they have around 13 higher melee attack against infantry but no splash-damage. Without any buffs they perform a bit better vs elite infantry like Har Ganeth executioners, but much worse against any trash units and also against elite units with buffs like waagh or "sneaky gits" or "ere we go" or scrap metal or simply campaign buffs. They took away what made them special and gave them the potential to be absolutely devastating with proper use in exchange for ease-of-use-standarts.
RIP - now Grimgor does not only have fucking chaos stunties before his door, now he also lost the Immortals.
I do think Renderers are a *bit* overtuned, but one thing to consider is their low armor basically means in the chaos of fighting, they're more likely to take high damage than, say, skullcrushers
I miss the look of the older Bull Centaurs. These look more like Beastmen. In the really old books, they were bedecked with fancy armor and jewelry, because they were so pampered by the Sorcerer Prophets.
While these fights are cool. I would also love to see some tests of units against the things they are meant to fight. Put the kadai against a group of elite infantry for example. Same with similar units from other factions and see how they perform compaitively.
The Destroyer is a generalist unit, but has more potential against infantry
I wish that the power of the dlc factions would make more sense and not just be overpowered for sales sake, but we shall see
What antialising setting you using Zerk? Vid footage looks clean n non blurry.
Immortals vs Immortulz (aka krimson Killas) WHEN?
I dunno how much of a factor it will be or if it applies for multiplayer batles but don't forget in campaign atleast the chaos dwarfs have a limit to how many you can have which will definately balance things out for them a little
I didn't realize exalted bloodletters were THAT good. That's wild.
Also the Campaign mechanic limiting the chaos dwarf recruitment of most units will be a factor not just the initial price in this they will be worse off than the Beastmen still having to pay upkeep.
The immortals look so fucking cool, I wish they weren't an ROR, would love to have an army of these death mask lads
Peasents vs Gobbos deserves a miniseries
Quality video Zerk, thank you ⚒
*Edit* Also you saying killing elves is one of your favourite pastimes cracked me up
I wonder if the Ogre Crushers could be a challenge for the centaurs?
Blood letter in a chaos drawer army will be nuts in campaign
When you slow down a clip in Vegas, try right clicking the audio track and tick "lock to stretch" without it the slowed down parts sound horrible (4:25)
I really wanted to see Immortals vs Krimson Killaz
No matter what great games come out I always end up coming back to Total War: Warhammer.
That AP blasting charge on infernal guard needs to be tuned down. Ridiculous
Can't wait been wait for this faction since the start
considering the bull centaurs are an anti large AP cavalry / monstrous unit with lowish armor... when going up against others of the same they should have the advantage when the other has high armor as part of their thing if you consider each strength as a point in balance. (bull centaurs would be using all of their strengths with the "other" unit only using some of their strengths) i think a better matchup would be anti large cavarly / monstrous, but WITHOUT AP, and high armor, that way both units are playing to all of their advantages
DLC power creep is real.
Hope it will get fixed before release.
Otherwise sad.
Unit caps say hi
I'm so pumped for the chaos dwarfs the immortals look sick dreadquake mortar is insane straight heavy metal gunpowder and big booms
I was 99% sure the k’daii destroyer was anti large
So was i
“Absolute premium content” made me rofl 😂😂😂
What happens if you put the immortals in a column so that only a few dwarves fight in the front? Do those dwarves just reach 1hp and stay immortal since the unit health is still above 75%?
That would be an interesting test
Wonder how the Destroyer will last against the Necrosphinx...or the Khemric Titan if it finally gets added.
6:34 Those guys look like pirates from Rayman 2
The immortals having deathblow might be to do with the infernal guard and ironsworn getting it in campaign the the Karak Kadrin landmark and somone made an error with the coding of the custom battle versions.
For swordmaster and chosen you should have put them chevron 9 since they are not a RoR.
And Chosen of nurgle rank 9 are definitively the biggest threat.
Yeah Bull Centaur units will be definitely getting a nerf before the launch day, that is just too strong imo
I really don't like how good the immortals are either. All feels like some powercreep
@@fatherceltics2379 not that true actually. After many livestreams and showcases, Chaos dwarfs are not looking to be overly too powerful, sure couple units are but majority looks to be on par.
@@fatherceltics2379 but it's a unit you can only have 1 of in any of your armies, let it be strong
@@notaskaven964 Being able to beat reknown bloodletters is just stupid
@@fatherceltics2379 not really, they have mad fire resist, it makes sense, they just have a perfect counter passive to that one unit
I think i fell in love with the Immortals...
Would love to see them Crimzon Killerz vs Immortals.
OK, when it comes to the monstrous cav, THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED. Those stupid bull centaurs need to cost WAY MORE. Not happy with that balancing BS given the cost of other units that got schwacked against them.
the metals clanging as steel hits steel and sparks fly off
was it always a thing in warhammer 3 or just this dlc introduced that?
I wish the Chaos Dwarfs also had the Collosi(Collosus) from the books.
When Zerk says somethings wrong with a unit, that's a bit of a concern.
try the crushers against the bullcentaurs the crushers destroy effectively the gryphite knights in my trys! :D would be interesting to see
5:19 The fucking zoom got me good. :D
Bull centaurs are quite easy to kill, tho. Everything that can do a skirmisher job will rekt them. They are unarmored, unshielded for the most interesting of them, and slow for a cavalry-ish type of monster. Minotaurs basically do their jobs but better in every way, as I see it.
Long-ranged archers can probably destroy most of them before they catch them. You can also punish them by everything that takes them from two sides. Khorne's cav is heavily armored and shielded. They will be able to endure more, more threats.
Comparing cavalry on a 1v1 basis against other cav is not really a good way to see if they are effective. What's the point of a slow and squishy cavalry, anyway? At best they are good at killing monstrous infantry, but they are glasscanon, and not fast enough to always make a difference.
The infernal Guard comparison to Ironbreakers seems way off. +10 WS with roughly the same combat stats at about the same price? Yeesh. Ironbreakers probably need a WS buff, 32 is quite low for their tier (see buffs to Marauder Champs and upcoming changes to Tzar Guard).
Don't forget the blasting charges are just better then the iron breakers charges, and the extra range means they'll get the second volley in for most fights
@@calebbarnhouse496 I do think the chaos dwarf charges need a bit of toning down (really all thrown explosives do), but they aren't strictly better.
Lower damage higher AP means they bust armor more effectively but against mid to low values the greater ammo pool and higher raw damage of the Ironbreakers would put them ahead. If the combat performance was closer together outside of the Blasting Charges I could see that being a reasonable trade off for the higher price.
A 10 WS difference on the other hand is way more impactful and adds far more potential damage over a battle.
@@spellbound1875 the thing your ignoring is the linger range on those charges, ensuring they are gonna get second volleys FAR more often before melee is engaged, which means the other guy is screwed, next while the difference in damage is negligible, and unarmored units being sent into iron breakers is a non issue as like 5 units in the game have no armor and AP and of them none of them have the melee attack to do any damage to ironbreakers, so a negligible difference in damage in blasting charges is made into better d
Damage against the things that need it, better throwing stats, and better disruption, beyond that, most thrown explosives are fine, miners are just reliant on them to be able to do anything except beat artillery in melee
@@calebbarnhouse496 I do agree the blasting charges need to be toned down and your points around the gained value are solid, but I really think you're downplaying the damage difference in melee. 10 WS is a 33% increase per attack, I don't see how that's negligible. Even into high armor it adds up to a massive lead in sustained combat for the Ironsworn. They have combat stats similar to marauder champions while Ironbreakers have damage output comparable to shielded Gor Herds. Like, even if both units beat the same infantry Ironsworn and Infernal guard will win the combat much faster and taking much less chip damage. It's a much bigger performance difference.
I also strongerly disagree that thrown explosives are in a good place. Bombers, Poison Globes, and Blasting charges basically make infantry combat a non-starter into the 3 factions and push other missiles out of the meta given they just can't compete damage wise. The fix to explosive damage generally was necessary but it massively buffed these units and they need to be reigned in.
@@spellbound1875 I only said the difference in total damage between the AP blasting charges and the unarmored blasting charges were negligible, the melee differences are stupid, next bombers are so weak they are easy to kill, so I wouldn't even say they are an issue, the problem with globdiers is that they are able to hit multiple units at once with full force because 99 percent of there damage output comes from an effect they out on infantry, not themselves, they actual projectiles are really weak, the method of delivery is just broken, and when it comes to blasting charges, dwarfs are bullied hard due to there terrible speed, armor being easy to invalidate, gyros being incredibly fragile to any ranged unit even with high armor, and then there artillery has a tendency to bleed models very quickly, blasting charges as they are now is because they have 2 options when it comes to cheap infantry, dwarf warriors of there 2 flavors, and miners, again, 2 flavors, dwarf warriors are more expensive and worse against preety much anything that isn't a dwarf warrior, while the miner is absolutely useless with there stats, the blasting charge is just a cheap upgrade that makes the body a tax to bring them, if miners were in a good spot balance wise, then the blasting charge miners wouldn't be necessary, and in great weapon dwarf warriors were viable, then when you look at the dwarf frontlines you'd have more then just things with shields to shoot at
The ironsworn is my new favorite 😍 unit for both style and functionality. Whats soo amazing about them is that thier stack with attack types of damage! This makes them outright Overpowered and dangerous!
Man, the bull centaurs really need a tweak. They are overperforming to a crazy degree for their price point.
The Ironbreaker blasting charge actually has a lot more explosive AP than the Ironsworn, who have more direct hit AP. I've tried it out and in most cases the Ironbreakers win out.