Would be nice if retail saddle shops would have the bare trees for every type of western saddle they sell so prospective buyers could take the tree home to try it on their horse before buying the saddle they're interested in!
Actually most if not all popular saddle manufacturers use trees from only a handful of tree makers. Still, as important as saddle fit is for a well behaved happy horse, if I were to sell saddles I would try to offer this unique service to make my business stand above others selling saddles
It would be a positive thing for a business for sure. There is one tree company that sells plastic molds of their bar styles so people can try them on to check. I've read that people have had both positive and negative results with them. The issue is that you have to know what you are looking for and what you are looking at. The finished saddle is different than a bare tree, (which is why we use the trees to show people what they need to feel for under the finished saddle) so for customers to try on their own horses, they can easily get confused. But for a retailer to learn and use something like this, it could be very good. We talk more about how padding, etc. affects fit in our Basics video we advertise at the end of this one.
Western Saddle Fit First of all, I Loved this Video. Since the Plastic Molds of the various Trees don’t represent a finished Saddle, I think that they should add Material to the Plastic Molds that would be a good representation of a Finished Saddle, Built on that particular Tree. That would be the more Accurate way to represent what a Saddle made on that particular Tree, would Fit like on your Horse. To go even further, a Person could also put a Saddle Blanket on their Horse, after they initially put just the Tree on their Horse, to then see how it will fit with the Blanket on as well. True, they should probably have at least the two Extremes of the acceptable Blankets (Thickness wise) with them, to try out the Fit on them as well. At least that is what seems to me, would be the Best Case Scenario. 🤷🏻♂️
I wish I had found someone to explain this when I was looking for my western saddle. Retail store was clueless and even the saddle manufacturer's rep was vague. Almost ruined my horse's back. and I went through 3 saddles trying to find a western saddle to fit. Ultimately I transitioned to a Dressage saddle due to the ability to adjust the saddle to fit.
Great basic information for any discipline. I love that you discussed the importance of the riders position-often overlooked. And saddle placement! Virtually all people put the saddle too far forward! Lots of information packed into seven minutes! I know the full video is going to be awesome!
Thanks for the feedback, Diane! Things the tree maker and saddle maker have no control over - the rider and how they saddle - do have a big effect on the horse. Helping riders get the basics correct is one of the goals of our videos, so the fact that you saw them as important is very gratifying for us!
I know that this video is older but I am part of a 4 H club and we do a learning time after every meeting and it was my turn to do something so I decided to do saddle fit and this video had everything that I needed for my project! Thanks for the awesome video!!
So glad we could help you! The video may be 3 years old, but horses and saddles are the same, so the information isn't out of date. So great to hear from a 4 H member. 4 H is such a good organization. Please say hi to the club from us! Rod and Denise Nikkel
I am hoping to get a horse soon and this video is very clear and informational i think the thing i'm most nervous for is getting my horse the perfect saddle fit, but after watching this i'm a little more confident in what to look for in a good saddle fit.
So glad we can be of help to you! If you want even more information, we do have a longer video available for purchase on our website, along with many articles you can read at westernsaddlefit.com/.
this was very helpful, i recently got a green gelding and have been doing a lot of work with him and he seemed very uncomfortable with the saddle i thought that fit, my instructor said it was fine they way i was doing it a few years back but looking at this really made me realize why he was so uncomfortable, this was very clear and thank you so much!!!
We are not familiar enough with the production saddles to give accurate opinions. However, something to consider is that today's North American horses, on average, are larger than they were even 30 years ago, so many saddles that worked well on horses in the 80's, for example, will be too narrow on many of today's horses. Something to be aware of when buying a horse!
It took much planning, a day of filming and much editing, but we wanted to get as much information in as little time as possible. I'm glad you appreciated it!
@@loryspencer8215 We never made saddles for the public - just saddle trees. Rod only built two saddles, both for himself. He sold the first one before he made the second one, with 10 years in between. We are no longer making trees either. We shut down the tree shop in 2016.
What causes hair rub at rear of saddle bars? Sweat pattern is even front to rear. Missouri Foxtrotter mare. Chunky 14 hands 2 inch. Built hip high. Adding insert to Middle of saddle pad? Skirt length help? Difficult to know from one saddle to another, how much rock.
I am assuming you mean places where the hair is broken off in patches at the back of the saddle but there are no skin sores and the muscles aren't sore. This is common in late winter when the hair is getting ready to shed out. The summer coat coming in will replace the broken hairs and will not be rubbed off in the summer. So if that is the case, it generally isn't an issue. However, why is it happening and might it be more of a problem? First off, if it is just broken hair, it is a result of movement, not excess pressure. As the hind end moves, the back of the saddle will shift side to side a bit over the horse. You will need to saddle up again and check what area is rubbing. Best to do this at the end of a ride so the saddle is for sure where it sits most of the time. Then check. Do the bald patches correlate with the back edge of the pad? If so, how stiff is your pad? Is it dirty and that is causing it to be hard against the horse? Cleaning the padding is never a bad thing to do. Does it correlate with the back edge of the skirt? Check by feel to see if there is higher pressure there. And then why? Is it laced too tightly at the back so it rides on the back of the skirt rather than the bars? Is the back edge of the skirt curled under or excessively stiff? These things may or may not be able to be modified. Talk to someone competent with saddle work to see if they can be softened or lifted up. Is it under the actual bars? The tips or further forward? If it is the bars, then check the saddle as seen in the video to make sure it isn't bridging or that the back bar tips aren't digging in. If either of these things are going on, changing out the saddle is the best option. But it is not an uncommon thing in late winter that has no real ramifications for the horse. Playing around with shims to "fix" something that isn't an issue can cause a lot more problems. All the best!
Having ridden english my whole life I'm getting into western and new to western saddles. Some of the basics are the same but this is SO helpful for the details, thank you! Do you have a video discussing tree widths and bars? What is the difference between a tree and bars in sizing ("bars" is not an english saddle term), e.g., are "medium tree" and "semi QH bars" the same thing, and are "wide tree" and "full QH bars" the same? Also, how do you feel about flex trees? Thank you!
Glad we could help. We have a DVD that discusses both your questions: westernsaddlefit.com/video/western-saddle-fit-basics-dvd We also have blog posts that may help. Here is one on what the "fitting terms" about bars mean - and don't mean: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/what-do-quarter-horse-semi-quarter-horse-and-full-quarter-horse-/ So no, you can't really equate them, since they don't mean anything specific. Regarding flex trees - the purpose of a tree is to spread the rider's weight over a larger surface area. If something is flexible enough to move with the horse, then it really can't carry or distribute much weight. So you end up with a small surface area carrying the rider - which means higher pressure there. Therefore, we are not supporters of flex trees. There are different types of flex trees. Here's our report on the pressure testing we did on one stye: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/ And if you want to do more reading, here's a page with all our saddle fit blog posts organized and linked. westernsaddlefit.com/articles Enjoy!
You never want anything Poking the horse, of course. But the skirts do not bear any weight beyond maybe an inch or so past the bars. So whether a skirt around the hip causes problems or not depends on the quality of the leather, how stiff or pliable it is, and how the skirts are made. If they are soft and ride over the hip without rubbing, there is no issue. If they are stiffer and jab into the horse as he moves, then yes, they are a problem. Check the horse for soreness and rub marks if you are concerned. If neither are there, then the skirts pose no problem. If they are, then either the skirts need to be modified by a saddle maker so they lift more at the back, or another saddle can be tried.
The saddle I have for my three-year-old tends to lift up in the back. She's also very round with not much withers so it seems to not want to stay put. The pad shifts a lot. Any recommendations for that scenario?
Young horses don't have as much rock in their back as they will when they get older, so it is not uncommon that most saddles have excess rock for a young horse. That is only one reason that saddles will lift in the back, but the most likely one for a young horse. (To check for more reasons, click this link for the first of three blog posts on the issue: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/why-does-my-saddle-lift-back-part-one/ ) The spinal processes (the bones that make up the withers) are also still growing, so young horses tend to have rounder backs than they will as they get older. The pad shifting shows that the saddle isn't fitting well. A saddle that fits well now is not likely to fit really well in a couple of years. So for now I would look for something with a wider bar angle but not necessarily a wide bar spread, because the horse is not likely really large bodied yet, and a flatter bar. But before you do that make sure you check your tree as we show you in this video to see if what I am suggesting really is the problem or not. (If you want more information we have a 67 minute video for sale that will expand on what we say in this free video: vimeo.com/ondemand/westernsaddlefitbasics )
I wonder if a flexible type of poly or plastic can be used as a saddle tree instead of a hard material(wood). That way it moves with the horses body....
There are a number of different types of flex trees on the market now. The problem is that if they flex enough to move with the horse, how do they not flex under the rider's weight and concentrate pressure there? One style of flex tree does that: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/ Another style has a rigid section under the rider and very flexible ends, which, in practice, results in very short "bars" actually carrying much weight over very little surface area and "somewhat stiffer than a firm pad but not much" sections front and back. Then there are the pads that have stiffer sections in them to try to extend the surface area weight is spread over compared to normal pads. So many people trying to do their best to help saddles fit horses. Our opinion is that a good quality tree with a proper design and well designed edges that matches the shape of the horse is still the best bet. Finding that if you have a horse that doesn't fit the "common shape" can be an issue though...
interesting... Jochen Schlese says the back cinch should never be tight and that rigging more in the middle of the saddle will mean the cinch will not run perfectly vertically and will slide forward, causing the saddle to be pulled forward.
Western saddles are, and have always been, rigged in different positions - from full (very forward) to center fire (half way between the fork and the cantle). History and current experience show that well fitting western saddles are not pulled forward out of position if the cinch is angled. (In fact, we believe that it is the idea that the cinch needs to be vertical is the cause of many saddles now being placed up on the shoulder blade, causing damage to the horse.) That "rule" does not apply to western saddles. Depending on the design of the rigging, the further back the rigging is set, the more it pulls down over the whole tree, distributing the pressure more evenly. The more forward the rigging, the more necessary it is to have a back cinch in contact with the horse to assist in spreading the pull evenly over the entire tree - which is what it is designed to do, especially when roping. If the back cinch does not contact the horse, it is just a decoration, and should be removed as it is doing nothing and, with space between horse and cinch, may be a danger. If a saddle is rigged far enough forward that the cinch can be vertical, then it would be rigged at least full if not ahead of full in many cases. This puts all the pull very forward on the tree, so a back cinch is required to spread the pull over the entire tree. To rig a saddle so the pull of the cinch is over enough of the tree that it does not need a back cinch, the cinch will need to be angled. These are are the facts regarding western saddles, which have a very different design than English saddles. The different design means that many of the "saddle fit rules" that apply to English saddles do not apply to Western ones. Here are links to some blog posts we wrote explaining much more than we can put in a comment here: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-1/ www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-2/ www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-3/ Hope this helps explain it more!
@@westernsaddlefit4729 thank you for this reply! I hope this is something you go over in your Basics video but if not (and in any case) I'll read the blogs linked here.
We talk about it some more in our Basics video. There are also a lot more blog articles linked on our westernsaddlefit.com site. I'll put the links below. To purchase The Basics: westernsaddlefit.com/video/western-saddle-fit-basics-dvd The page for saddle fit links: westernsaddlefit.com/articles
The temptation is to get something too narrow for the horse, which means the saddle sits high, in order to clear the withers. But that isn't the ideal. The best is to make sure the bars fit the horse for width and angle, and then have a tall gullet to clear the withers. So long as it clears the withers, even a little bit, without a pad, it should be good with a pad, but check not just when you start riding but after you have ridden for a while and when you are done. You need to check not just at the front of the gullet but at the back and even at the front of the ground seat to make sure nothing hits if the withers are long as well. Using a pad with wither cut out may help too, but make sure nothing hits further back.
I know this video is old. But I have a saddle that doesn't have high pressure areas and nice clearance but lifts a little in the back this is corrected with a regular pad and rider weight can I still use it?
Padding lifts the front more than the back so what you are seeing is normal with padding. It is sounding good. Try it and see what your horse says but I expect it will work well.
Actually, it is just the 3 Ps. Put it in the right Position, then make sure it is distributing the Pressure over as much of the tree as possible with no Poking - no high pressure areas. Bareback is fun but not great for long distances... :) Enjoy riding!
Not hitting the withers is vital, so it is important to be concerned about it. But so long as the saddle never hits the withers of the horse, it is fine. And never means no matter what - not with weight in the saddle, not after a long day of riding, not when roping, never ever ever. Not at the front or in the middle (most common place to hit) or at the back of the fork, or at the front of the seat either. So long as there is always clearance, it doesn't matter how much clearance there is. Three inches is no better than one inch - so long as it always clears. The saddle in this video is a true Wade saddle, which was designed to be used by working cowboys roping cattle, often large, in pasture situations where they stay connected for a while as the cattle are doctored. It was made to be low to the horse so it decreases the torque and the pressure on the horse when roping. Because it has a wood horn that is integral to the fork, the fork itself is thinner. A metal horn fork that looks this close at the front could easier contact further back because the fork itself is thicker under the horn to make room for the screws. This saddle actually has more than adequate clearance on this horse, and we know that because we have checked by feel in different situations. Good question!
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Thank you! My saddle sits a wee higher then yours, but i was always taught 3-4 fingers where as now it's about 2. I've been using a riser, but i guess I don't need it now? He's not sore at all (per vet and chiro) with it.
@@alinaswagmoney3889, Check by feeling under the gullet, front and back, and in the hole behind the fork check under the seat as well. Check at the beginning, middle and end of your ride. If it never hits at all, you will be OK without the riser - which will also affect the fit of the saddle in other ways. Just make sure it never hits and you should be good!
And that's the problem with western saddles - you can't see the tree. The goal was to show you what is under there so when you are feeling you know what you are feeling for. And with western saddles you have to go by feel, not sight.
The side view doesn't give you a good view of the shape of the seat which was shaped to fit the owner - me!! Please believe me when I say it is very comfortable.
How do I know that the saddle is not sitting too far back on the floating ribs (part of the horses back where it can cause discomfort from pressure and cause bucking )
Lilly Mae, here are some links to some blog posts that explain why western saddles can sit on the loin without problems. No, you don't want high pressure on the loin (or anywhere) but the idea that you can't have any pressure there or it will harm your horse and cause bucking is not true. There is no research that shows that, especially on western saddles, while real world experience says the opposite. Enjoy the read!! www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/can-the-loin-of-the-horse-carry-weight/ www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/all-western-saddles-extend-over-the-loin/
@@westernsaddlefit4729 funnily enough, I’ve spent a huge portion of my evening on a certain blog, learning about the Dennis Lane measuring system and how there’s really no way to measure bar angles.. lo and behold, it was your blog :-) y’all are really putting some invaluable information out there. Thank you so much!
@@Anna-rv3fv You are welcome. There is so little real information out there from people who come from a Western background and understand Western trees and saddles (which are different than English!) that we felt we should try to contribute some of what we learned over the decades. Glad some people are reading it!! :)
Very useful. I've had someone put white marks on my dressage horse with a western saddle. She has her own fitted saddle. I was horrified to see that, and now I'll spend the rest of her life telling people that I didn't abuse her.
Sorry to hear that. If they are just some white hairs sprinkled in they may very well disappear with the next coat change. If they are solid white that is unlikely to happen...
That generally happens when the tree is too wide most likely in angle. Very common today as there is a trend to make saddles wide and hope that extra padding will fill in but padding doesn't fix mismatched angles. www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/padding-doesnt-fix-mismatched-angles/
Thanks for the helpful video I really appreciate it and the article. I wish there was somewhere local I could get my horse fitted. I’m frustrated, I have five older saddles and none of them fit. I didn’t realize this was going to be such a hassle.
@@rebekahlaflin3565 Western saddles are like women's clothing. The numbers don't mean anything. You have to try them on to know if they fit! If you can try different saddles on, and then follow the principles in this video, and if you want, you can get our Western Saddle Fit - the Basics video that has LOTS more information, that will give you confidence in checking the saddle for fit before you buy. vimeo.com/ondemand/westernsaddlefitbasics
It should be stored on a rack, ideally on one shaped to resemble a horse's back shape somewhat. Sitting on a pole or 2 x 4 works but isn't the best for the saddle as it can damage the underside of the ground seat. Make sure the stirrups are down. Never leave a fender thrown over the saddle! Protect from mice and other animals chewing on it. Freezing is OK but excessive moisture can lead to mold.
It depends on the shape of your horses. There are some quarter horses that are the same shape as some haflingers, but most are different shapes. They they happen to be the same approximate shape, they can work with one saddle. If they are not, they can't. You have to check the saddles on the horses to see if they fit, and if not, why not. Then you can figure out what you need to get to fit them.
Great video but how far BACK on the horses spine should the saddle go? I have a very short backed arabian and most western tack seems to be too long for her?
There is a common idea that says you can't have any weight behind T18/last rib. This has never been studied academically, and honestly, in practice, every western saddle out there extends onto the loin of the horse, and so long as the shapes fit, the horses are fine. What you don't want is high pressure there, especially at the back bar tips. So long as the bars have some relief built into the back bar tips as we demonstrate in the video, you can have the back bar tips extend to 1-2 inches ahead of the point of the hip. You don't want skirts or pads to rub on the hip either, so rounded skirts on shorter backed horses are preferred.
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Would be nice if retail saddle shops would have the bare trees for every type of western saddle they sell so prospective buyers could take the tree home to try it on their horse before buying the saddle they're interested in!
People can learn a lot by seeing the bare tree but I expect a lot of companies wouldn't want their trees to be seen...
Actually most if not all popular saddle manufacturers use trees from only a handful of tree makers. Still, as important as saddle fit is for a well behaved happy horse, if I were to sell saddles I would try to offer this unique service to make my business stand above others selling saddles
It would be a positive thing for a business for sure. There is one tree company that sells plastic molds of their bar styles so people can try them on to check. I've read that people have had both positive and negative results with them. The issue is that you have to know what you are looking for and what you are looking at. The finished saddle is different than a bare tree, (which is why we use the trees to show people what they need to feel for under the finished saddle) so for customers to try on their own horses, they can easily get confused. But for a retailer to learn and use something like this, it could be very good. We talk more about how padding, etc. affects fit in our Basics video we advertise at the end of this one.
Western Saddle Fit
First of all, I Loved this Video.
Since the Plastic Molds of the various Trees don’t represent a finished Saddle, I think that they should add Material to the Plastic Molds that would be a good representation of a Finished Saddle, Built on that particular Tree. That would be the more Accurate way to represent what a Saddle made on that particular Tree, would Fit like on your Horse. To go even further, a Person could also put a Saddle Blanket on their Horse, after they initially put just the Tree on their Horse, to then see how it will fit with the Blanket on as well. True, they should probably have at least the two Extremes of the acceptable Blankets (Thickness wise) with them, to try out the Fit on them as well. At least that is what seems to me, would be the Best Case Scenario. 🤷🏻♂️
yes but totally unrealistic economically. The profit margin is too slim to justify this cost.
This is the best western saddle fitting video I've come across. To the point, has plenty of examples and clear narration. Very good job!
Thank you very much! We worked hard to make it clear and easy to see and understand, as we have for all our videos. westernsaddlefit.com/video
I wish I had found someone to explain this when I was looking for my western saddle. Retail store was clueless and even the saddle manufacturer's rep was vague. Almost ruined my horse's back. and I went through 3 saddles trying to find a western saddle to fit. Ultimately I transitioned to a Dressage saddle due to the ability to adjust the saddle to fit.
So sorry you had such issues getting a good saddle. We are trying to get the information out to people as best we can. Please, share away!! :)
Excellent video- clear, concise and easy to understand for anyone interested in western saddle fit. Great job guys! Can't wait to get mine!
Thank you! We worked hard to make it easily understandable!
I agree it was a very good video. I didn't mean to open it but watched it through because it was so interesting.
Wonderful!
Oh dear there aren't words to express ! Thanking you
You are very welcome!
Excellent ! I love a saddle with a Cheyenne roll on the cantle, kept me seated several times ! So simple to grab the lip and be good to go ! Thanks
Cheyenne rolls are good. The one in this video is called a straight up binding.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Good to know, thank you
@@juliojames5986 You are very welcome!!
I’m transitioning from English to Western and I’m learning to what to look for in a saddle, especially the fit. Thank you for the basics!
So glad we can help! But these are only the Essentials. The Basics are in another video!! :) vimeo.com/408449221
Great video. Straight to the point!! Thanks so much.
Glad you found it helpful!!
Great basic information for any discipline. I love that you discussed the importance of the riders position-often overlooked. And saddle placement! Virtually all people put the saddle too far forward! Lots of information packed into seven minutes! I know the full video is going to be awesome!
Thanks for the feedback, Diane! Things the tree maker and saddle maker have no control over - the rider and how they saddle - do have a big effect on the horse. Helping riders get the basics correct is one of the goals of our videos, so the fact that you saw them as important is very gratifying for us!
Boy I wish he was still making trees! What a handy fellow. Thank you!
Thanks!
Very useful! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
You are very welcome!!
Thank you for this video. It helps a lot.
Glad it was helpful!
I know that this video is older but I am part of a 4 H club and we do a learning time after every meeting and it was my turn to do something so I decided to do saddle fit and this video had everything that I needed for my project! Thanks for the awesome video!!
So glad we could help you! The video may be 3 years old, but horses and saddles are the same, so the information isn't out of date. So great to hear from a 4 H member. 4 H is such a good organization. Please say hi to the club from us! Rod and Denise Nikkel
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Will do!! Again thank you so much!!
@@alyssamcpherson9104 You are very welcome!
Love this - thanks you ❤
You are so welcome!
Absolutely brilliant video. Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
THANXS. Subscribed.
You are very welcome!
I am hoping to get a horse soon and this video is very clear and informational i think the thing i'm most nervous for is getting my horse the perfect saddle fit, but after watching this i'm a little more confident in what to look for in a good saddle fit.
So glad we can be of help to you! If you want even more information, we do have a longer video available for purchase on our website, along with many articles you can read at westernsaddlefit.com/.
Just got a western saddle. Thank you for this!
You are very welcome!!
this was very helpful, i recently got a green gelding and have been doing a lot of work with him and he seemed very uncomfortable with the saddle i thought that fit, my instructor said it was fine they way i was doing it a few years back but looking at this really made me realize why he was so uncomfortable, this was very clear and thank you so much!!!
Glad it was helpful for you!!
Thank you so much for such an informational video. I'm going to be co-owning my first horse and I am so thankful for how helpful this video is!
You are very welcome!
very well thought out video. l am glad you talked about padding and Rider position.
Thanks Enoch. There are so many factors that come into play - far more than just the saddle itself!
Great job guys. I remember Rod teaching me this at Rocky. Good refresher.
Thanks Ralph. We've learned more since then for sure!
Concise, well structured, clear - I think, an excellent summary. That you Ben Longwell for the pointer from "Thoughtful Thursday"
Thank you for the kind words, Patricia! We worked hard to put as much information into as short a time as possible!
Awesome! I'm waiting one of your tree for my mule! Gianni west is going to made the saddle!
Glad you like it!
Thanks, very useful!!
You are very welcome!
Very good video, thank you!
Thank you!
That was super useful, thank you for uploading this
You are very welcome! Glad you found it helpful!
This is an excellent video.
Thank you! We tried hard to get as much good information into a short time period as we could. Glad you enjoyed it!
excellent video
Thank you! We worked hard on it!
Well done! you explained very well and if was very helpful
Thank you! We try hard to make things understandable!
Western Saddle Fit :) I also have a question if you don't mind, what's your opinion of older simco saddles?
We are not familiar enough with the production saddles to give accurate opinions. However, something to consider is that today's North American horses, on average, are larger than they were even 30 years ago, so many saddles that worked well on horses in the 80's, for example, will be too narrow on many of today's horses. Something to be aware of when buying a horse!
Thanks for a "to the point" video.
It took much planning, a day of filming and much editing, but we wanted to get as much information in as little time as possible. I'm glad you appreciated it!
Well Done!
Thank you!
That saddle you are using is gorgeous! Who made it?
Thank you! That is one of two saddles Rod Nikkel made for himself.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Is Rod still making saddles for the public?
@@loryspencer8215 We never made saddles for the public - just saddle trees. Rod only built two saddles, both for himself. He sold the first one before he made the second one, with 10 years in between. We are no longer making trees either. We shut down the tree shop in 2016.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 What a shame!
@@loryspencer8215 Life changes - but we still own that saddle!
What causes hair rub at rear of saddle bars? Sweat pattern is even front to rear. Missouri Foxtrotter mare. Chunky 14 hands 2 inch. Built hip high. Adding insert to Middle of saddle pad? Skirt length help? Difficult to know from one saddle to another, how much rock.
I am assuming you mean places where the hair is broken off in patches at the back of the saddle but there are no skin sores and the muscles aren't sore. This is common in late winter when the hair is getting ready to shed out. The summer coat coming in will replace the broken hairs and will not be rubbed off in the summer. So if that is the case, it generally isn't an issue. However, why is it happening and might it be more of a problem? First off, if it is just broken hair, it is a result of movement, not excess pressure. As the hind end moves, the back of the saddle will shift side to side a bit over the horse. You will need to saddle up again and check what area is rubbing. Best to do this at the end of a ride so the saddle is for sure where it sits most of the time. Then check. Do the bald patches correlate with the back edge of the pad? If so, how stiff is your pad? Is it dirty and that is causing it to be hard against the horse? Cleaning the padding is never a bad thing to do. Does it correlate with the back edge of the skirt? Check by feel to see if there is higher pressure there. And then why? Is it laced too tightly at the back so it rides on the back of the skirt rather than the bars? Is the back edge of the skirt curled under or excessively stiff? These things may or may not be able to be modified. Talk to someone competent with saddle work to see if they can be softened or lifted up. Is it under the actual bars? The tips or further forward? If it is the bars, then check the saddle as seen in the video to make sure it isn't bridging or that the back bar tips aren't digging in. If either of these things are going on, changing out the saddle is the best option. But it is not an uncommon thing in late winter that has no real ramifications for the horse. Playing around with shims to "fix" something that isn't an issue can cause a lot more problems. All the best!
Having ridden english my whole life I'm getting into western and new to western saddles. Some of the basics are the same but this is SO helpful for the details, thank you! Do you have a video discussing tree widths and bars? What is the difference between a tree and bars in sizing ("bars" is not an english saddle term), e.g., are "medium tree" and "semi QH bars" the same thing, and are "wide tree" and "full QH bars" the same? Also, how do you feel about flex trees? Thank you!
Glad we could help. We have a DVD that discusses both your questions: westernsaddlefit.com/video/western-saddle-fit-basics-dvd We also have blog posts that may help. Here is one on what the "fitting terms" about bars mean - and don't mean: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/what-do-quarter-horse-semi-quarter-horse-and-full-quarter-horse-/ So no, you can't really equate them, since they don't mean anything specific. Regarding flex trees - the purpose of a tree is to spread the rider's weight over a larger surface area. If something is flexible enough to move with the horse, then it really can't carry or distribute much weight. So you end up with a small surface area carrying the rider - which means higher pressure there. Therefore, we are not supporters of flex trees. There are different types of flex trees. Here's our report on the pressure testing we did on one stye: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/ And if you want to do more reading, here's a page with all our saddle fit blog posts organized and linked. westernsaddlefit.com/articles Enjoy!
Thank you!! I will definitely check these out :)
You are very welcome!
Wow☺
Thanks for commenting. Glad you found it helpful!!
And what about the lenght of the skirt? I see many saddles having too long skirt which is poking the horse in the hip causing stiffness.
You never want anything Poking the horse, of course. But the skirts do not bear any weight beyond maybe an inch or so past the bars. So whether a skirt around the hip causes problems or not depends on the quality of the leather, how stiff or pliable it is, and how the skirts are made. If they are soft and ride over the hip without rubbing, there is no issue. If they are stiffer and jab into the horse as he moves, then yes, they are a problem. Check the horse for soreness and rub marks if you are concerned. If neither are there, then the skirts pose no problem. If they are, then either the skirts need to be modified by a saddle maker so they lift more at the back, or another saddle can be tried.
The saddle I have for my three-year-old tends to lift up in the back. She's also very round with not much withers so it seems to not want to stay put. The pad shifts a lot. Any recommendations for that scenario?
Young horses don't have as much rock in their back as they will when they get older, so it is not uncommon that most saddles have excess rock for a young horse. That is only one reason that saddles will lift in the back, but the most likely one for a young horse. (To check for more reasons, click this link for the first of three blog posts on the issue: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/why-does-my-saddle-lift-back-part-one/ ) The spinal processes (the bones that make up the withers) are also still growing, so young horses tend to have rounder backs than they will as they get older. The pad shifting shows that the saddle isn't fitting well. A saddle that fits well now is not likely to fit really well in a couple of years. So for now I would look for something with a wider bar angle but not necessarily a wide bar spread, because the horse is not likely really large bodied yet, and a flatter bar. But before you do that make sure you check your tree as we show you in this video to see if what I am suggesting really is the problem or not. (If you want more information we have a 67 minute video for sale that will expand on what we say in this free video: vimeo.com/ondemand/westernsaddlefitbasics )
I wonder if a flexible type of poly or plastic can be used as a saddle tree instead of a hard material(wood).
That way it moves with the horses body....
There are a number of different types of flex trees on the market now. The problem is that if they flex enough to move with the horse, how do they not flex under the rider's weight and concentrate pressure there? One style of flex tree does that: www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/checking-out-a-flex-tree/ Another style has a rigid section under the rider and very flexible ends, which, in practice, results in very short "bars" actually carrying much weight over very little surface area and "somewhat stiffer than a firm pad but not much" sections front and back. Then there are the pads that have stiffer sections in them to try to extend the surface area weight is spread over compared to normal pads. So many people trying to do their best to help saddles fit horses. Our opinion is that a good quality tree with a proper design and well designed edges that matches the shape of the horse is still the best bet. Finding that if you have a horse that doesn't fit the "common shape" can be an issue though...
interesting... Jochen Schlese says the back cinch should never be tight and that rigging more in the middle of the saddle will mean the cinch will not run perfectly vertically and will slide forward, causing the saddle to be pulled forward.
Western saddles are, and have always been, rigged in different positions - from full (very forward) to center fire (half way between the fork and the cantle). History and current experience show that well fitting western saddles are not pulled forward out of position if the cinch is angled. (In fact, we believe that it is the idea that the cinch needs to be vertical is the cause of many saddles now being placed up on the shoulder blade, causing damage to the horse.) That "rule" does not apply to western saddles.
Depending on the design of the rigging, the further back the rigging is set, the more it pulls down over the whole tree, distributing the pressure more evenly. The more forward the rigging, the more necessary it is to have a back cinch in contact with the horse to assist in spreading the pull evenly over the entire tree - which is what it is designed to do, especially when roping. If the back cinch does not contact the horse, it is just a decoration, and should be removed as it is doing nothing and, with space between horse and cinch, may be a danger. If a saddle is rigged far enough forward that the cinch can be vertical, then it would be rigged at least full if not ahead of full in many cases. This puts all the pull very forward on the tree, so a back cinch is required to spread the pull over the entire tree. To rig a saddle so the pull of the cinch is over enough of the tree that it does not need a back cinch, the cinch will need to be angled. These are are the facts regarding western saddles, which have a very different design than English saddles.
The different design means that many of the "saddle fit rules" that apply to English saddles do not apply to Western ones. Here are links to some blog posts we wrote explaining much more than we can put in a comment here:
www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-1/
www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-2/
www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/saddle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-3/
Hope this helps explain it more!
@@westernsaddlefit4729 thank you for this reply! I hope this is something you go over in your Basics video but if not (and in any case) I'll read the blogs linked here.
We talk about it some more in our Basics video. There are also a lot more blog articles linked on our westernsaddlefit.com site. I'll put the links below.
To purchase The Basics: westernsaddlefit.com/video/western-saddle-fit-basics-dvd
The page for saddle fit links: westernsaddlefit.com/articles
Thanks for a clear video! I loved how you show both correct and incorrect positions. Thanks!
You are very welcome!!
Anyone know how to buy a saddle for a high withered horse ?
The temptation is to get something too narrow for the horse, which means the saddle sits high, in order to clear the withers. But that isn't the ideal. The best is to make sure the bars fit the horse for width and angle, and then have a tall gullet to clear the withers. So long as it clears the withers, even a little bit, without a pad, it should be good with a pad, but check not just when you start riding but after you have ridden for a while and when you are done. You need to check not just at the front of the gullet but at the back and even at the front of the ground seat to make sure nothing hits if the withers are long as well. Using a pad with wither cut out may help too, but make sure nothing hits further back.
Would you consider this horse to have high withers?
No. She is well within the common wither heights we dealt with. She has a nice wither - not mutton withered.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 okay. Our new horse is built very similarly so that helps me to know that. Thank you.
@@jaredsolko2125 Your horse shouldn't be difficult to fit. This is nice back shape for a saddle.
I know this video is old. But I have a saddle that doesn't have high pressure areas and nice clearance but lifts a little in the back this is corrected with a regular pad and rider weight can I still use it?
Padding lifts the front more than the back so what you are seeing is normal with padding. It is sounding good. Try it and see what your horse says but I expect it will work well.
To complicated, I'll just go bare back 😂
Actually, it is just the 3 Ps. Put it in the right Position, then make sure it is distributing the Pressure over as much of the tree as possible with no Poking - no high pressure areas. Bareback is fun but not great for long distances... :) Enjoy riding!
👍
Thanks!
Isn't that too low on the horses withers?
Not hitting the withers is vital, so it is important to be concerned about it. But so long as the saddle never hits the withers of the horse, it is fine. And never means no matter what - not with weight in the saddle, not after a long day of riding, not when roping, never ever ever. Not at the front or in the middle (most common place to hit) or at the back of the fork, or at the front of the seat either. So long as there is always clearance, it doesn't matter how much clearance there is. Three inches is no better than one inch - so long as it always clears. The saddle in this video is a true Wade saddle, which was designed to be used by working cowboys roping cattle, often large, in pasture situations where they stay connected for a while as the cattle are doctored. It was made to be low to the horse so it decreases the torque and the pressure on the horse when roping. Because it has a wood horn that is integral to the fork, the fork itself is thinner. A metal horn fork that looks this close at the front could easier contact further back because the fork itself is thicker under the horn to make room for the screws. This saddle actually has more than adequate clearance on this horse, and we know that because we have checked by feel in different situations. Good question!
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Thank you! My saddle sits a wee higher then yours, but i was always taught 3-4 fingers where as now it's about 2. I've been using a riser, but i guess I don't need it now? He's not sore at all (per vet and chiro) with it.
@@alinaswagmoney3889, Check by feeling under the gullet, front and back, and in the hole behind the fork check under the seat as well. Check at the beginning, middle and end of your ride. If it never hits at all, you will be OK without the riser - which will also affect the fit of the saddle in other ways. Just make sure it never hits and you should be good!
This is really only handy to ppl with saddle trees not saddles.. You can't see all the gaps with a saddle on.. you're only using the base part
And that's the problem with western saddles - you can't see the tree. The goal was to show you what is under there so when you are feeling you know what you are feeling for. And with western saddles you have to go by feel, not sight.
Volume needs work....but it was a good video
Yes, video is brand new to us. If you can message us with ideas for improvement we will listen!
@@westernsaddlefit4729 I really am not audio or video savey lol. I really like the video. Maybe a a better mic? Idk? thanks for your reply.
@@eyazzie1984 Glad you like the video anyway!
Ngl, that saddle looks hella uncomfortable XD
The side view doesn't give you a good view of the shape of the seat which was shaped to fit the owner - me!! Please believe me when I say it is very comfortable.
Shape is more important than padding when it comes to saddles.
How do I know that the saddle is not sitting too far back on the floating ribs (part of the horses back where it can cause discomfort from pressure and cause bucking )
Lilly Mae, here are some links to some blog posts that explain why western saddles can sit on the loin without problems. No, you don't want high pressure on the loin (or anywhere) but the idea that you can't have any pressure there or it will harm your horse and cause bucking is not true. There is no research that shows that, especially on western saddles, while real world experience says the opposite. Enjoy the read!!
www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/can-the-loin-of-the-horse-carry-weight/
www.rodnikkel.com/content/index.php/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/all-western-saddles-extend-over-the-loin/
Very useful, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
You are very welcome!
Well done! Better explanation than most. Thx
Thank you!
Wow! So much knowledge! My horse will thankyou!!!
So glad we can help you and your horse! If you want more info, we have lots available at westernsaddlefit.com. Enjoy!
Excellent thank you
You are very welcome!
Amazing video, thank you so much for this resource.
You are very welcome! We wanted it to be helpful.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 funnily enough, I’ve spent a huge portion of my evening on a certain blog, learning about the Dennis Lane measuring system and how there’s really no way to measure bar angles.. lo and behold, it was your blog :-) y’all are really putting some invaluable information out there. Thank you so much!
@@Anna-rv3fv You are welcome. There is so little real information out there from people who come from a Western background and understand Western trees and saddles (which are different than English!) that we felt we should try to contribute some of what we learned over the decades. Glad some people are reading it!! :)
Very useful. I've had someone put white marks on my dressage horse with a western saddle. She has her own fitted saddle. I was horrified to see that, and now I'll spend the rest of her life telling people that I didn't abuse her.
Sorry to hear that. If they are just some white hairs sprinkled in they may very well disappear with the next coat change. If they are solid white that is unlikely to happen...
All my saddles seem to pinch tight at the conchos :/
That generally happens when the tree is too wide most likely in angle. Very common today as there is a trend to make saddles wide and hope that extra padding will fill in but padding doesn't fix mismatched angles. www.rodnikkel.com/content/saddle-tree-blog-from-shop-and-desk/padding-doesnt-fix-mismatched-angles/
Thanks for the helpful video I really appreciate it and the article. I wish there was somewhere local I could get my horse fitted.
I’m frustrated, I have five older saddles and none of them fit. I didn’t realize this was going to be such a hassle.
@@rebekahlaflin3565 Western saddles are like women's clothing. The numbers don't mean anything. You have to try them on to know if they fit! If you can try different saddles on, and then follow the principles in this video, and if you want, you can get our Western Saddle Fit - the Basics video that has LOTS more information, that will give you confidence in checking the saddle for fit before you buy. vimeo.com/ondemand/westernsaddlefitbasics
How do you STORE. A western saddle, like my husband was bugging me about this.
It should be stored on a rack, ideally on one shaped to resemble a horse's back shape somewhat. Sitting on a pole or 2 x 4 works but isn't the best for the saddle as it can damage the underside of the ground seat. Make sure the stirrups are down. Never leave a fender thrown over the saddle! Protect from mice and other animals chewing on it. Freezing is OK but excessive moisture can lead to mold.
I ride a half linger and a quarter I will have to have 2 saddles correct
It depends on the shape of your horses. There are some quarter horses that are the same shape as some haflingers, but most are different shapes. They they happen to be the same approximate shape, they can work with one saddle. If they are not, they can't. You have to check the saddles on the horses to see if they fit, and if not, why not. Then you can figure out what you need to get to fit them.
Great video but how far BACK on the horses spine should the saddle go? I have a very short backed arabian and most western tack seems to be too long for her?
There is a common idea that says you can't have any weight behind T18/last rib. This has never been studied academically, and honestly, in practice, every western saddle out there extends onto the loin of the horse, and so long as the shapes fit, the horses are fine. What you don't want is high pressure there, especially at the back bar tips. So long as the bars have some relief built into the back bar tips as we demonstrate in the video, you can have the back bar tips extend to 1-2 inches ahead of the point of the hip. You don't want skirts or pads to rub on the hip either, so rounded skirts on shorter backed horses are preferred.
@@westernsaddlefit4729 Thank you
@@Bethelhorses You are very welcome!
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Excellent
Thank you!