The craziest thing about the pvp map discussion, is in the 3 year timeline with no new maps a large portion of the maps were straight up removed from the game with beyond light.
Yeah they could have represented that map release chart way better by plotting it against time along with the number of maps removed. That would have really driven the point home.
@@RuiNDieM1988 they removed 11 of the 31 maps that were in the game at the time. Thats more than a third of them, so its wildly unfeasible that all or even most of them were severely disliked by the majority of the community. And even if they were the 11 least popular maps, every single one was still _more_ popular than no map at all, which is all we got for a year after that. Even now with three unvaulted maps, a reprised D1 map, and the only truly new map that's come out since Fragment in Season 8, we still have fewer total Crucible maps than before the DCV swallowed half the game. So, no, it has nothing to do with popularity. Don't try to frame this as anything remotely approaching what the players actually wanted.
@@RuiNDieM1988most yes, although I don’t get why they brought back unpopular maps like eternity and vostok and still kept maps nobody liked like twilight gap or convergence
This folks is how you provide constructive feedback that Bungie is more likely to respond to. TVs feedback is calm, collected and provides supporting documentation.
@@SilverSurfer17 exactly. Doesn’t matter if you show diplomacy like Truevanguard or come aggressively it makes zero difference. If players are still playing that means bungie still making money. Curse of Osiris was a turning point because players just didn’t play at all. They left. That birthed the existence of things like the forsaken expansion. Gladd’s whole point despite the terrible delivery and steps back in his point is that pvp players don’t leave despite the neglect. Despite constantly asking for things we never get. Assuming that right now what true vanguard is saying would somehow make a difference falls back exactly into the trap gladd is referring to.
Imo it’s a simple issue. Bungie created Destiny with PvP in it, and as a core part of it, they are obligated to either continue supporting it, or tell us it’s a failed experiment and cut support. Leaving it to slowly die off without any word on where they’re at with it is the worst possible thing they can do.
They aren’t running it down on purpose, PvP seems like it was mostly activision focused compared to bungie main goals, imo they added it but not their main objective from the beginning to the end
@@kddatrapmaneit smells like it was part of their core concepts for the game though. It's part of the lore, and even Gambit is going to have a big narrative pay off later. I think Activision tried to get them to focus on it with new modes to "add value" alongside the pvp players being so loud
Destiny’s original strength came from the combo of pve AND pvp. I can’t imagine how boring the game would be if it came down to just playing the same strikes, nightfalls, and raids that once you play you get a gun to go back and do it all over again. Main reason I quit after pvp went downhill.
I agree 100%! It's so fun getting a new weapon and trying it out in PvP. Getting killed by a weapon you don't know and wanting to try it out. Grinding PvE for the Perfect PvP roll!
I'm level 1 autistic I literally JUST want a pure pve Destiny to Matrix myself into for the rest of my life lmao I'm feverous waiting for Granblue Fantasy Relink
What originally attracted me to Destiny back in 2014 was the way they advertised and pushed PvP as the main attraction. Maybe Activision had a lot to do with that. PvE barely had a story.
I liked the game better when they focused on updating core playlist and no/ less story. they are putting majority effort into the campaign and we still can’t count on it to be amazing..
@@jamarilittlejohn6345What we're seeing now with the seasons dying out so quickly is the lack of effort in core activities. I say it all the damn time! How can you expect people to stay engaged when you have like two to three hours of campaign stretched out over the course of 3 months? The true replayability lies in core activities. And Bungie already solved the free-to-play versus paid subscription dilemma with this in D1. All they have done is solve the problems, undo the solution, and end up at the same problem again. Story of D1. Story of D2!
@@jamarilittlejohn6345Same. The reason I could play Destiny 1 for hours straight were strikes and crucible. In the last 3 expansions we have gotten 5 brand new strikes. CoS and Warmind that totaled $30 and released within a few months of each other gave us 4 brand new strikes. I would much rather have a new strike with a season than horde mode #2048283. From a total of 14 seasons since the seasonal model introduction, 1 season has given us core playlist content. Bloating the strike playlist with battlegrounds is not updating the playlist. All it does is give me less reason to play the strike playlist. People stop playing the seasonal content once they get their roles for a reason. They are boring and clearly not designed to stay in the game for long.
I’m glad he cleared it up that he does also acknowledge that destiny is not destiny without pvp, but I still hate the whole “it’s a PvE game first” argument because people miss interpret that as thinking bungie should put 99% of their effort into pve and 1% for pvp when it should really be more like 75-25
I think it should be 50-25-25 because gambit and crucible are supposed to be core playlists according to bungie and gambit is even worse than pvp cause they have even less content than they started with.
@@romannoodl5 very true it’s like that meme of the mother playing with her little girl in the pool while the brother is struggling to keep his head above water. The girl is pve, the boy is crucible, and then gambit is the skeleton sitting at the bottom of the lake
@@JL32506 The most moronic thing about the crucible is how Bungie induce a meta which can very easily be foreseen and just let it marinate within the crucible for awhile like arc titan which even on paper, has a very low cost relative to the benefits it provides. It should never take SEASONS to adjust something which can very easily be seen as an outlier within the first month of it's release
When I play destiny and complain they say "stop playing" When I stop playing and still complain they say "you dont even play the game anymore" Its just a bad excuse to ignore valid criticisms from people who just want the game to be better.
Strawman aside, most "valid criticism" is god damn awful, a bunch of armchair devs complaining about shit they don't understand nor give a shit about understanding, but act like they're lead engineers. Suddenly every person is a game designer that has flawless ideas and easy fixes. And don't get me started on the fact they want everything fixed overnight, thinking that every bug is the same level of complex, etc.
@@sebastit7d the best criticism for devs is honestly just "I don't like X, it makes me feel Y" That being said, suggestions can be helpful too. I've seen suggestions from the PvP reddit actually end up being implemented in game and it ended up making the game better. Main thing here is that devs know how to weed out the trash suggestions from the good ones so it honestly doesn't really hurt as much as you might think. It might make you feel bad to see people hating on your favourite game but it doesn't actually hurt the game to give feedback even if it might be considered trash/awful feedback. In the dev world all types of feedback are useful to some degree and you get used to separating the insults from the actual useful parts of the feedback.
Something about him really gives me the ick. A certain shade of straight white guy that seems so privileged and out of touch they'd say something ignorant when they aren't on camera lol
@@oodeuce6926 Exactly. He got big after MarcoStyle and others gave up...and they would just do entertaining videos of gameplay and avoid this. Gladd is the typical youtuber/content creator.
I feel like a lot of Gladds take is disingenuous, he knows as well as we do that a majority of the pvp community does not think pve should be dropped to focus on solely pvp. The very idea is laughable, the blend between pve and pvp is a huge part of what makes destiny so amazing/unique. We just want some attention given to the part of the game we like the most lol literally any attention.
exactly i feel like hes making points that reflect maybe a handful of people meanwhile the rest of the PVP community isn't asking for all that. and he's way too pissed about it, like chill dude why you heff to be mad
a pve guy who says he's not trying to offend anyone and condemns this so called sphere of negativity while cursing for 60% of his video and creating strawmen all wrapped in a condescending tone just shows it's all an act
This feels like something made by a guy who's just lost his temper at either his chat, Twitter, or the Reddit. He's venting at a vocal minority he's sick of dealing with, and in so doing not representing what most sensible folks are thinking. It's like when Datto went off on the whole "Bungie nerfs based on usage" thing. I wouldn't say so much he's setting up a straw man as he's not trying to address the entire pvp community. Destiny has a lot of really vocal and obnoxious fans, just take a look at the Twitter feed on the downtime extension announcements...people are losing their *minds* and being incredibly rude, and frankly telling some of those folks off is probably called for. I wasn't there for the original context, but it sounds like an on-stream rant, made into a vid because people ranting gets clicks :| It's definitely somewhat disingenuous, but I feel like that's more in terms of the fact that he's cross with a subset of folks and just shouting into the internet at large without clarifying.
Right. I feel like he is speaking for the minority. Can't help but feel the majority of us enjoy playing pve so we can go slay out in pvp with our new loot. I certainly wouldn't be playing Destiny as much as I do if it was just a pve experience...
This Destiny sold itself because it had both, and even today it's the only game out there in the live service market who does both competently (or did, back when PvP was actually relevant to Bungo)
Really? Ofc I’m only one person, but 99% of PvP players I’ve encountered enjoy PvP exclusively, only touching a raid or Dungeon if they absolutely NEED to.
@@Mudo-dq8dr i've never met anyone like that in my time with Destiny, i've met people with a strong preference for PvP but not to the point where they shun other activities or only do them when a meta weapon comes along
@@Mudo-dq8drI think what you’re meeting is people who don’t have a regular group to run that content. Pvp is about the only space for solo players. The strikes are fuckin brain dead.
He's a washed up has been trying to stay relevant by playing with younger players/streamers in his clan but I don't even think they can stand him the majority of the time 😂
He doesn't even main Destiny 2 anymore and has moved on. You can actually play multiple games and still critique one that you put thousands of hours into.
@@worldeater6769 Yes you can, but when you start whining about a facet of said game you didn't even really play when you mained the game your arguments start to lose credence.
he isnt saying you SHOULDN'T care, he's saying to STOP caring. pvp players are like people who watched a movie with a horrible ending and then just sat in the theater after the credits rolled asking "ok bungie when is the real ending?" bungie abandoned destiny pvp. they arent going to give it the ending that pvp players deserve. its time to move on unfortunately
Hes right though, if your being lied to and feel abandoned then yes you will care but you need to stop caring and move on. Think about having a girlfriend and she cheats on you and treats you shit, yes you care but you will stop caring and move on with your life. Simple.
Almost as exhausting and draining to have to listen to a player base that contributes almost nothing in the way of revenue constantly gripe they they don't get anything when quite clearly they've been feeding of the teet of the PvE community for years. TV even proved it with his little visual representation of how many maps have been released after the game went live. There's a good reason why when Bungie release a new season and a new DLC that there's loads of PvE content, it's because that's what sells. Complaining that the local Ford dealership isn't giving you a formula 1 car for free with your Focus is almost as asinine. Especially when you have literally zero idea of how much more time and effort goes into creating a balanced PvP map over a linear progression PvE space.
@@imstuckstepbro1934 You're fucking capping. He was good at the game when he was playing it everyday. Feel free to take his opinion or not, but he's a vet, played D1 and D2 since forever, he knows the insides and outs of the game. He's done so many challenges, very often coming up with the strats/setups by himself for when he did solo stuff, or with the partner(s) when he did duo/trio.
I’m not really a fan of Gladd but I don’t know if people saying he wasn’t good realize that the guy has MULTIPLE worlds first raid titles between D1 and D2. If that doesn’t qualify you as “good” at the game then i don’t know what else would.
I think bungie knows the pvp community will play no matter what they do, and that pvp mains buy way less cosmetics than pve mains. They have tons of data on these subjects while the customers have feelings on them.
Yeah when I say this is the dumbest take I’ve seen from a major Destiny content creator in a while, it truly is. You can tell he is NOT a PvP-minded dude. Leave it to the PvE mains to come out with the worst takes on PvP.
Its a pvp and pve game....meaning 50% of the game is pvp. No person pays 100% of something and is totally fine with only getting 50% of it. Just a brain dead take. Bungie should make better use of our money, theyre the reason this is an issue.
@@axe2grind244false. Ppl do this all the time. People BUY games like Call of Duty to play the PVP aspect. Yet they’re paying for the campaign as well. 10% probably play the campaign lol. MOST RPGs if they even HAVE a pvp aspect make it very minimal part of the game. Some may never even dive into it. Elden Ring has pvp. But I’ve NEVER in my life heard someone say “yo let’s run some Elden Ring matches “. My point being, people pay for 100% of something but choose not to to partake in certain of aspects of games ALL OF THE TIME.
Never forget that Gladd insulted the entire console player base when he claimed that console players were just not as good as PC players, and that the benefits of PC over console were irrelevant to PC players being better at the game. He said this while PC players were using Recluse in raids are scout rifle distance, something that is objectively impossible for console players using a controller, and while many damage outputs were directly tied to fps which was always higher on PC enabling better dps phases for PC players than console players. He was not only unapologetic for his insults, but he bragged about the amount of followers he lost, further insulting them for being weak and whatnot. Gladd can be very arrogant, narcissistic, and straight up stupid sometimes, so I don’t care what he has to say about D2. He may be good at gaming, but he is a terrible role model that I do not respect at all. Great video and thoughts as usual, TV.
Not to mention he continues to complain about how accessible “Day 1” is to the community nowadays. Maybe take a taste of his own medicine and stop complaining about his team not being able to place 1st in Day 1 anymore, due to the difficulty of Day 1 raiding dropping immensely. It’s wild to me how much Redeem complains as a whole, just to turn around and call out others for complaining.
Damage input and output are tied to FPS in this horrible engine. Never heard of anything close to that in the history of gaming. It's a horrible flaw. It's still here in a lot of activities and with some weapons. Refreshing to see someone talk about it cause how that goes under the radar for pretty much a decade now and nobody/most people don't complain or don't even know about it is mind-boggling to me. It's actually hard to take a game like this so seriously as most fanatics do...I mean, this is some ghetto ass amauterish stuff.
I came to the conclusion that Gladd's a narcissistic idiot who thinks he's the smartest person in the universe years ago. He always has bad takes about the game. Watching Gladd's video proved my opinion of him right once more. He talks about something he obviously has no clue about but is too self absorbed and convinced of his "omniscience" when it comes to Destiny, he didn't even bother with research. Just spouted nonsense for 20 min straight.
Still finishing the video, but I'm surprised you did not bring up that in that 2 year 2 month period during the Release chart breakdown that we lost 11 maps during that time.
Sorry i thought the game we were talking about is Destiny 2 not Halo? So every game bungie ever makes needs to have pvp in it? What a stupid take. Also, he said at the beginning that PVP shouldn't be removed, it just isn't a priority and so stop crying and expecting things.
As someone who sits roughly 40/60 on the PvE/PvP scale. The PvP community deserves to be mad with the underdelivered promises that have been drip fed to us. That being said the only way we are going to get any meaningful change to anything PvP related is we need more people to just take a break and go play other games for a while. TV said it right PvE moves the game forward but PvP sustains it. Once the numbers start dropping Bungie will do as they always have and (hopefully) make more improvements.
It’s funny because I hear PVE focus players complaining all the time. Maybe we all need to see Bungie playing us all and taking us all on the same ride.
gm weapon pools better ways to level weapons dungeon boss health pools viable primary weapons easier way to get exotics better lost sector rates ascendant alloy farms red border drop rates better season activities foundry/world loot focusing spicier vanguard strikes the list goes on for someone to go only pvpers are negative nancys and ruining the vibe for us pve-ers is so disingenuous and ofc we care about the pve side bc we should keep bungie accountable as one community
I agree that if people are really unhappy with the state of the game then it would just be better to move on and play something else. However to act like pvp players are complaining for no reason and bungie isn’t delivering on things they promised is such a bad take by Gladd.
He knows what he is talking about. He literally said that bungie have their on vision on pvp and stuff. So any complaints or whining from pvp players are not gonna be heard by bungie. You are still playing the game so that means you are still engaged player. They dont give a shit about your thoughts or feelings so long you are playing. They gonna do something only if they start losing numbers (like curse of osiris). If you couldnt see that in the vid then you are dumb im sorry.
What Gladd is trying to say, it doesn’t matter what Bungie has said they are going to do with PvP (opening the tap) it matters what Bungie is done and doing. Actions speak louder than words. He’s saying stop expecting them to stick to their word when their actions clearly show that they won’t and haven’t for the last 3 years.
I think at the end of the day, we all want a stable game-with at least somewhat consistent and MEANINGFUL updates. Like yeah we all complain about our wishes but honestly? I think we could all come to agree we need reliability/consistency, and to get that…heart? spirit? Back into the game
If you have never watched another True Vanguard Video this is a perfect example of what the man is all about. Insightful, considered, mature, and entertaining. Great video and an important discussion. Keep up the great work TV.
Unfortunately that first summit was due to the game literally dying and they had 5 weeks to hurry up and find a solution. Now they don’t really care (bungie corp not bungie devs) and it’s supported by the gdc. - Yeah I think destiny has focused more on PvE than pvp. However, I feel like the importance of pvp in the past has made the game feel that the game is 50% PvE and 50% pvp. And yeah where people get confused is what the pvp community wants. They don’t want the same attention as PvE, we just want what was precedent a few years back. - I think the only time the pvp community wanted a competitive destiny was the release of destiny. But we just want the game to be balanced and a competitive mode. Wanting a comp mode isn’t the same as wanting pvp to be competitive. When the community talked about wanting pvp to be balanced, it’s almost 100% agreed upon that the 30th anniversary was near perfect in terms of balance for pvp. - I dont know where he got the idea that the community wants bungie to drop PvE and prioritize pvp. We just want pvp to get the attention it used to get - Overall it’s unfortunate that Gladd comes out with a video misrepresenting the pvp community. Basically antagonizing the community over a false perspective.
Thé PvE side has complained to the point it’s actively made PvE worse. Instead of strikes we now have these shit novelty seasonal battlegrounds constantly versus the old system of a great raid each year and a suite of strikes that made for good nightfalls. It’s a load of half assed low skill shit added for “PvE players” and I don’t know who these players are. Go back to patrol zones for that stuff
Its a lot easier when the drugs get more expensive and less potent...you almost get left with no other choice, which can be refreshing at times actually.
There's things to love about Destiny, but so much more that I hate. Like how anti player they are in many ways. Like I would have been copied Halo Infinite when it comes to season passes. It's easy money and it puts players time in their hands. Can go as fast or slow as you want, while also allowing those who missed previous seasons to benefit.
You can really hear that Gladd gets his points and views straight from reddit complainers and extremists 😂 the guy is not a reliable source to be taken seriously
@@ghostlyrazgriz5228 it seems youre a naive fan of his, thank you for taking the time for doing your due diligence and defending the person you like, but as a regular person who may or may not use or scroll through reddit and hearing him that seriously is an L take, you cant be a big face of destiny content creation and deadass separate and advocate this PvE over PvP nonsense, every destiny player should know and appreciate that both modes make up destiny….destiny aint just “a pve game” thats toxic mentality dude, but i digress i dont have time nor is it my responsibility to teach dummies
You dont need to watch many streamers to know how the content is put out. They either talk or rant to their chat. It gets cleaned up with a little editing. Then put on youtube. TV obviously went into this video with more prep than gladd had for his. Which is obvious when you compare both
Oh, have I got a response.... So much so, I had to get off the phone and one the computer, so I have a real keyboard. This will be in three parts: 1) My PvP pie in the sky dream, 2) my thoughts on Glad after watching this, 3) a minor editing critique. 1) My pie in the sky dream. Leverage AI to make maps. I do not know how large the data pack for a map is, but if we had something in the Vex space with the minimal textures, I think we could get realtime map generation. I think it should be in Crucible Labs, and have map voting at the end, where you vote on your over all like of the map, and specifics like: good spawn points? Good amount of verticality? Not enough or too many sight lines? Etc. The AI will learn and we will get better and better maps. It could also profile the players and give them feed back on what kind of player the AI thinks you are based on the maps. And workout what kind of maps are best for what skill levels. We could play a new map ever match, if we wanted, or generate a curated list of fan favor maps to put in rotation in the main play lists. 2) I am going to be as respectful of Glad as he is to the PvP community. He's a sh*t bag. Anyone who starts with, "I don't care what people think" and then proceeds to tell them they are stupid whiners? That is complete disrespect to the PvP community and I think far less of him as a person in the Destiny community. I spend the first week of the season in PvE. And then one day a week doing the weekly PvE maintenance, but the rest of the time, I'm on PvP two hours a night hanging out with friends. And the friends part bring up another issue with the elitist "just go play another game" attitude. This is where my friends are. It's like Facebook, everyone whines about it, but few leave because it's where they can connect with friends and family. PvP is much the same way for me. 3) Could you get the sound balance a little better? I could barely hear Glad unless I cranked the volume way up, and then when you would start speaking again, my ears would get blasted. I was trying to listen while driving, and had to keep adjusting the volume through the whole drive. Thank you for your well thought out response to Glad. I'm happy you were able to give a counterpoint to his biased take on the PvP ecosystem.
There’s zero reason bungie can’t include one or two new maps per expansion. ZERO. They didn’t seem to have any problems doing it with much less income in D1, then again maybe all the energy spent in populating the eververse store has eaten up any crucible investment. Regardless, zero reason.
Tbf, it’s obvious that Bungie is done developing D2 outside the seasonal dripfeed. Anybody here still hoping for development beyond that should quit. I basically have.
Deadass. They keep saying the story will continue after the light and dark saga but like, how? Light vs Dark is literally the core of the universe. The plot, the lore, the narrative, the symbolism, the themes, literally all roads lead back to Light vs Dark, without that all you have are side stories, that are admittedly cool and can be the focus of a season but they can’t be the focus of they can’t carry a larger narrative.
@@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces I really have no idea what they’re gonna do, on the one hand it seems like D2 is grinding to a halt and they’re focused on marathon, but on the other I can’t see them dropping destiny entirely for marathon, this game has single-handedly kept their company alive for the past decade, no way are they dumb enough to think they can afford to lose it
More like asshole energy. Pve players will always be the easiest to jump ship (D4 is showcasing this right now), even if the devs are focusing on that side. Pvp is the glue that held D1 during lean content periods.
@@wat146 You act as if jumping ship is a bad thing, bet you're also the kind to call people "Bungie dickriders" when they're not whining about the game. Playing other games is completely fine if you're not feeling it. But PvP players love to pretend they're being held hostage and forced to play a game they hate, they're fucking idiots.
I remember when the forges came out and Gladd complained that the puzzle was too hard to get to the final forge. Why didn't he move on to another game?
The only D2 content creator who's PvP opinion I gave a damn about was Gernander Jake. His speech about the state of Trials and PvP in general hit the nail on the head
People forget the days lackluster PVE content was released all at once and turned dry after two weeks (outside of grinding raids for rolls and power). PVP had to carry the rest of the season/DLC without much to pursue. This is a 50/50 pve/pvp game that’s carried by the pvp community
I think there’s a giant bit of a monkey’s paw thing that happens with this. We’ve asked for a focus on PvP. What we don’t do is specify what we want that focus to be. In the last year we’ve gotten: Trials overhaul, Trials labs, tons of Crucible labs, rift, eruption, fortress, supremacy, a few maps (I’m counting the new vex map and the returning two from this year. I agree they shouldn’t have been removed in the first place but technically it is a net positive from where we are currently), a complete comp overhaul and ladder system, the return of a whole bunch of armor sets (which for anyone who didn’t already have them which is a lot considering the amount of new players that’s something for us to chase, it doesn’t appeal as much to legacy players like myself but it’s still nice), weapon focusing at vendors, origin traits, new voice lines for Iron Banner, etc. Even when we look back at times when BUNGIE has said there’s going to be a renewed focus on PVP they gave us Trials of Osiris (which while a returning mode was built from the ground up in D2). And I’d like to add that in Forsaken they made Gambit which is partially a PvP mode and they built up Gambit Prime and 6 maps for it. I know the two aren’t the same but it should be given credit where it’s due in this regard. Speaking of Gambit that’s had the same problem. We got an overhaul in Beyond Light when we were promised more focus, we got it AGAIN in Witch Queen as well as a bunch of Gambit Labs. The problem is people didn’t like these things. What we wanted was an enhancement on the things that Gambit players liked about Gambit and to get more maps and new weapons for it. Instead we got it to where it is now and we say BUNGIE didn’t do anything. Well they did, we just don’t like it. Same is true with Crucible. They added in SBMM, Airborne Effectiveness, overhauled trials, comp and Iron Banner. So they were doing a focus on these modes it’s just not what we wanted it to be. That’s the problem, it’s like a Monkey’s paw, we ask for stuff and we receive what we ask for. Doesn’t mean we’ll like it. At least with Vanguard operations they added in the battlegrounds (which is why I think we don’t see strikes as frequently because they put the same work into making the strikes and the battlegrounds and we get over 3 of those an expansion. The amount of work is still there it’s just in different avenues. This is all a long-winded way of saying I’m not defending BUNGIE from all criticism (god knows as a Gambit player I’ve got my fair share of it) but we have been receiving a focus like they say, but notice how they say “focus on” and not “designing more maps for” or “bringing new weapons into”. It’s not that they’re lying they’re just terrible at expectation management.
Couldn’t have said it better myself - excellent video as always TV. Only thing I would add (and I totally understand why you didn’t mention this) is the matchmaking has such a detrimental effect on the experience. They could change sbmm and lobby balancing and it would make a massive difference immediately. Hell I wouldn’t care if we never got another map or new mode again - just make the matchmaking better!
It’s so weird how he tries to exaggerate people’s expectations for the PvP in this game. A single new map per year is not that much to ask for. They used to do at least a few per year. They can do that again if they wanted to. No one is asking for Destiny to be a PvP first game. They are asking for any attention at all to that side of the game.
I really like this video cause it helps me understand where pvp vets are coming from as someone who started in Shadowkeep, but at the same time I very much FEEL where Gladd is coming from. It's so frustrating, as someone who loves to play this game, to only see hate, vitrol and complaints on every forum and twitter/reddit post.
He’s the definition of what people mean by out of touch streamers, he defends the lying billions dolla company instead of the player base that was lied to because the loud majority of them are toxic. Just wild
@@CoC_Lord The whole basis of his argument is invalid. The only reason we’ve continued to expect pvp to be supported is they continue to promise that. If it’s not a pvp game then why do they make playlists with adept weapons and chase items you can only get in pvp? Guy was tired of hearing the conversation on it and snapped. I won’t be paying much attention to gladd after this not that I matter to his viewership or anything.
@@jackreacher4547 except destiny used to pump a lot of content into pvp every year and pre beyond light said, “we have a renewed focus on pvp”. Went over 2 years without even a new map. Youre mad at a player base that was lied to and abandoned
@@zcodoedoe exactly lol, I love the pve and pvp. So I still love destiny but losing the pvp side while being told the whole time that they were going to add a bunch of content is just bull. The fact that streamers like gladd who should know more then anybody how pvp players feel attack them instead of bungie is so dumb
Gladd is spot on. Hes not telling people not to care about the state of things, hes saying you need to stop caring and move on to other games cause its been 10years and nothings changed and it never will. And i understand the drop off of maps from Forsaken to Shadowkeep but you also have to realise that that was 2019. Its been 4yrs and they havent picked up the map production so still expecting it at this stage is sad. And yes Bungie is 100% to blame and not the community but i dont understand why people havent just accepted the unfortunate reality. Especially now with the pvp team moving to Marathon the pvp community should expect even less.
Gladd is essentially saying “hey, things aren’t going to change and I’m tired of hearing you complain. So stop.” As if the Destiny community isn’t entitled to voice where they would like Destiny to go. I do agree that Bungie isn’t listening at this point and will not likely never support PvP like they used to, or to the degree the PvP community would like.
Hey TV, really well presented points. We just want Bungie to honour what they promised. I do think there is a definite disconnect between what PvP players want (or what I'd like to see) and what Bungie thinks we want. For me, If they just bought back the sunset maps rather than new game modes that would make a massive difference.
Funny how PVE being boring and stale made him barely play anymore and he always plays other games now lol, maybe PvP should be a bigger part of the game if that's the case..
As any therapist will tell you, "The best apology is changed behaviour" If bungie would just quit saying theyre gonna do these things and just actually deliver on half of them, we would all be fine
I hate the whole "destiny is a pve game" take. Back in 2014 PvP was HUGE and kept the game breathing during the offseasons. People often act like Bungie cant do PvP, when in fact they made some of the BEST PVP games back in the day (Halo 3, Halo Reach). Another example was curse of osiris (arguably the WORST season), the numbers in PvP kept the game breathing. D2 is FULLY capable of being a PvE and PvP game along with its niche PvEvP gamemodes (gambit). Its a problem that we haven't had a new pvp map in YEARS. Bungie putting attention to PvP is only going to make the game exponentially better, and a lot of these PvE only content creators push such a horrible take. We are not asking for PvP > PvE, majority of us just want SOME improvements and attention. For an example, make a seperate sandbox for PVP and PVE and have a dedicated team for PVP?
I think Datto has the right explanation behind why PVP isn't developed, and that's that it's not monetized. PVP is simply not directly monetized. Any possible profits from investing development time into PVP are second order effects from people buying more into the PVE side which is where all the transactions are. I think PVP has always been a loss leader for Bungie, and they just decided it wasn't financially worth it, and that they'd get more profit from just investing 100% or nearly 100% into PVE.
The piece is see repeatedly being overlooked is that PvE and PvP are dependent on each other. There are a nonzero number of players who only buy seasons and do pve in order to get things to use in PvP. The reverse I’m sure is also true. For Gladd to say PVPers can just move on if they don’t like it, is short-sighted at best. If all the PvP players left the game, the pve side would also suffer when the player count plummets and the game dies overall. I agree it was never meant to be a competitive shooter, but it’s not unreasonable to expect it to be playable. Recent matchmaking and other changes make it barely tolerable, and without some attention, both pvp and pve will suffer for it.
Why are we still here? Because the foundations of the game are amazing. The feeling and potential are miles above the rest. “When it’s good, it’s amazing” is a difficult proposition to leave on the table, particularly when there’s no one out there doing the way that Bungie *could* be doing it. We’re so close to the product we want. That’s why we’re still here.
I like Gladd and all, he seems like a good dude and usually I agree with him but when I saw this video from him I thought it was a pretty terrible take. I do think Bungie hardly gives two shits about pvp anymore and it really shows. It doesn't make them money. It's a shame too.
Which is crazy because it only stopped making money when they stopped supporting it. Trials saved destiny 1, and grenader Jake is the biggest destiny streamer and he was almost exclusively pvp for years
Appreciate that you turned this into more detailed commentary from the PvP players perspective. At the end of the day I think we all should judge based on what Bungie does not what they say. I strongly think Destiny lost its way in the last couple of years, the passion I had for it has diminished and I am hanging on solely because I have so much time invested. Feels bad….
It all coincides with F2P at shadowkeep, they couldn’t find a way to monetise PvP without splitting the playerbase. So they decided to not invest in it anymore. It’s a very conscience decision.
7:08 I disagree, my most played time in Destiny 2 was when Luna’s Howl, Not Forgotten, Mountaintop, Recluse, and Revoker were available. Everyone wanted them, they were SUPER strong, and it got even PvE mains to play. That in my opinion was when the game was at its best, when people were actively playing PvP a lot. Recently it just hasn’t been the same with lack of incentive to play. The game is not at its core a PvE game whatsoever imo. Both Destiny 1 and 2 have both had Crucible as a core activity since launch so to say that especially with how boring and repetitive PvE has been lately, is just wrong. This is coming from someone who kinda quit playing over the last few months. I have around 525 VoG Sherpas, have flawless title and gilded the Unbroken Title all 6 times, pre ordered Destiny 1 and played the beta same with D2. I just hopped on for the first time in a while yesterday and honestly had fun but kinda shocked with the lack of game modes to pick from 💀
Agreed, the forsaken era was overall the best pvp and pve, the grind for NF in my opinion was One of the harderst weapon to obtain back then if you don’t have 2 pretty good pvp players on your team. When i hit 4000+ is was pure sweatys and streamers all the time 😆🥵
i dont even know who this guy is. just from starting out of context clip i saw i feel like i am not gonna like him. people dont want to move on from a game they invested so much money and time into. they have a reason to voice their opinion especially in a live service game where they are charging full price for a year content. there are lot of games that made a huge comeback with players voicing their opinion. games like final fantasy online had huge uproar from its player base and eventually devs listened and made a full recovery and revamped the entire game with relm reborn and its a big success and one of the most beloved mmorpg. i hate people who think paying for a product and if u dont like it .. just stfu and move on. i would move on if they refund me when i am unhappy or i will just vent out my frustration especially since there is a good game somewhere in there.
Bungie has never and will never truly care about what its player base wants. While they may have seemed to answer feedback directly, they have always proven to us that their own directives take precedence over the wants of the community. Because of the amount of time I have put into this game, I choose to overlook and even ignore this. I don't want to stop playing and I don't want to constantly be annoyed that Bungie doesn't listen. If you can't handle the fact that Bungie does not care about its players, and this ruins the game for you, there are other games that have developers who do cater to their player base more.
It's nice to see the D2 youtubers doing these reaction style videos. I get to see content from personalities I enjoy, even if the game is meh right now
A better metaphor is that there are two kids, one standing at an empty PVP buffet line and one at the full PVE line. Gladd is saying to stop being disappointed at that empty buffet line, go to a different restaurant.
The problem to me is simple: Bungie moved on. Destiny is on ICU and it will be until it dies. And that's natural. Destiny isnt an MMORPG. It isnt a pvp focused game. And it will be done when this saga ends.
I rarely ever play PvP, so this was very helpful to better understand the vibe in the PvP-community. That map chart and the fact that a lot of those maps were sunsetted…. I understand your dissapointment. Bungie has really been failing the PvP-community for years.
Graphs make all the difference and thank you for putting in all the time you did into this video. I always used PVP as my way to rank up each season. My stats will never indicate the amount of fun I have had over the years and will not complain, but I really do enjoy Control and 1 game where you have a monster k/d makes it all worth it.
As a hardcore Destiny player and more casual PvP goer, I gotta say that the loss of some of the maps we had throughout the years still hurts. I know alot of them weren't balanced, the ones we have still aren't 'balanced' anyway. I miss Retribution and The Citadel even now. Maps like Reteibution are too small for how fast the game moves currently, but the chaos that map offered was so much *FUN* imho. I wish they'd just give us those vaulted maps back, and not one every couple of seasons, I'd like them all back so it feels like there's more maps in rotation than friggin Fragment and Disjunction...
TV! Long time listener, first time caller. Appreciate you taking the time to break down the video with your own thoughts and feedback. You did a great job capturing the spirit of PVP feedback, or at least in my opinion. I've loved Destiny since alpha days, and it has been a point of frustration for me and many others, obviously who lean more into the PVP side of things for replayability rather than the PVE side. Thanks again for all of the content you've made and continue making. Best wishes for you and your family, and looking forward to your future content, as always.
I realized also, after having some passing thoughts on it last night, that the situation reminds me of past work experiences where development teams are more interested in completing a minimum viable product within the timeframe and promising a "fast follow". Then fast forward 6, 12, 18 months and these "fast follows" are still off in the distance somewhere.
If pvp did not matter then they would not have promoted " A renewed focus on pvp". Transparency is what people are angry about becuase after they split from Activision, they could have said that the game would have a PVE focused game a lot of the community could have made their own decisions at that point instead of highlighting parts of the game they did not intend to put focus on.
Now we're reaching the point of feasting on one another man...seriously though. As a pve player primarily now. People need to stop dumping on the crucible. Also. Fuck the sentiment that gbit needs to go. Gambits usually the healthiest playlist you chunks.
Gambit would be more interesting if, instead of an arena setting like Crucible, it took place in the open world. In fact, most MMOs have some form of open world PvP, whether it's opt-in or a special 'Dark Zone' where people in certain parts of certain areas can be attacked by other players... and then have PvE challenges within it. My main problem with Gambit is the amount of cheating that goes on.
Yes, Bungie did say that they wanted to get back to building on the crucible. And that they wanted to open the tap. But they did also mention that they were going to do labs. Which seems like to me that was them opening the tap on crucible. If you look at your graph, you can see that after Activision split with Bungie PVP got a little more scarce. So what that says to me is that Activision was handling a majority of the PVP side of the game or at least lending a lot of help and that is evident when you look at the graph and where you said that they split and what followed. Bungie never said that they were going to release X amount of maps. That is just players expecting it to stay the way that it was from the few seasons after launch. So if you look at it objectively the fact that anyone would expect them to release X amount of maps over a specific period of time is an expectation that someone set in their mind, on their own. And I think that is exactly what Gladd was trying to explain here.
The only good point he had there was why is the pvp community still here? You can’t be objective about your point when you turn around and call the pvp community entitled, despite the lack of support and I would encourage gladd to look up the definition of that word. Also stating that our negative energy is ruining the game, really plays in to the whole “why are we still here?” Gladd doesn’t realize but with that he just spoke for a huge margin of the toxic pve community that believes pvp should be dropped from the game and honestly sounds like he is in that camp himself. We are all in the destiny community but you can’t even rely on the community to have our back, and I’ve seen some really grotesque opinions from the pve side. Bungie doesn’t support pvp and the pve community thinks our negative energy is ruining the game, so why ARE we still here?
I'm just here to keep ruining Destiny 2 for Gladd with my 'toxic' entitlement. Of course, I'll never be as successful at griefing Gladd, as Bungie themselves. ;P
When D1 and D2 had rough time and dry in PVE content , PVP what kept it alive I remember when players quit D1 after king's fall no PVE content for 1 year > only PVP players where there. Yes it's a PVE first game but PVP is also very important
I play both sides, but I’ve never understood Gladd’s appeal. That’s the comment, peace out, don’t care what he has to say so won’t actually watch the video, but wanted to say Gladd’s opinion does not matter at all.
I feel like Gladd went for the "red pill" kind of aproach, aka he's way to agressive and over the top, while saying the right thing. I dont really like the delivery, cuz the point is not controversial, the way he gets to it is! That's where TV comes in! 10/10 vid, deconstructing those points, getting to the core and getting the clear, real point. Its also great to have someone capable of being polite to get the PvP community PoV across to everyone else! Also a little extra, that segment of "being abe to change your opinion is a good trate" was a beautiful way of saying please listen, im defenetly gonna use that in my life xD
They can't imagine a Destiny without PvP, but they continually pursue endeavors that actively prove that it's not the case. Bungie in 2023 is built on unfulfilled promises.
Part of the problem is the "season of the crucible" people are very vocal on reddit and Twitter, which is where most of the PvE players see the opinions of the PvP community. If the pariahs of the community aren't called out by the majority, then people who are not in that community will assume that the community agrees with the pariahs. That is just how society works in general. Also, as far as the competitive side never really wanting much, the amount of threads about leaderboards show otherwise.
For a game that is pve focused, its pve is pretty lackluster imo you always hear talks about the power creep is real with this and that. if d2 had real power creep we'd be killing raid bosses as fast as lost sector bosses. but in all honesty destiny's "power creep" is pretty poor compared to other titles I.e. (and I hate to compare) Warframe where you can literally kill every thing even bosses in one shot, insta nuke rooms and never die. once season of haunted came out and they added the 40%(now 30%) dr from resil pve became even more mind numbing then it already was. but lets be real every season/expansion can be done in 3 days but they time gate everything. I mainly play pvp and I get that is a pve focused game but the only time pve is at the "top" is when a new season/expansion or a new raid/dungeon drops and that lasts for about 2-3 weeks. "what about the seasonal story" time gated enough said. so what carries the game that's been neglected for the past 4 years......pvp, iron banner, comp, trials are what people are watching for streams, why do you think the biggest d2 streamers are pvp focused cause is the thing that is carrying the game even though that its been a mess for the last 2 years (30th meta come back ) I have never heard some say let me tune into so and so they are farming lost sectors/seasonal activity or doing the story. but you hear more of lets see what (TV, panduh, wallah, etc) are doing in trials, comp and iron banner. its sad and a little funny that the games main focus gets over shadowed for 70% of the season for a game mode that they pretty much abandoned, like @zjaeriqsanders1731 said its should be 75/25 pve/pvp but what we get is here's reskinned/sunset guns that you can get again and reskinned activity's and 1 map its sad cause this game could be so much better then it is. P.M i know its a hard hot take but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
“Gladd’s video did not imply that the complaints of PvP players are invalid". Instead, I think it is suggesting that players should recognize that Bungie is unlikely to respond to their complaints at this point. The PvP developers are currently working on Marathon, so perhaps players should invest their passion and time into games that have well-supported and enjoyable PvP rather than Destiny 2. Most, if not all, of Final Shape is already being developed, so I think it is unlikely that Bungie will introduce new maps and game modes for PvP at the end of this game.”
TV said it in a video ages ago about "setting expectations." Letting Gambit and Crucible stagnate without new content hurts a sizable part of game. Having people that play game leave will only hurt entire community. Agree that constant negativity is painful however people speaking out hopefully will call attention to "Destiny 2"'s failings. Hope Bungie reads or hears comments at least and can see constructive criticisms and not just kneejerk ignore certain complaints.
As a mostly PvE player for a while now: Destiny is not a PvE first game, or at least it wasn't at the launch of D1 Destiny is PvE and PvP, PvE provides new content and worldspaces to grind for gear, and PvP should benefit from the new worldspaces by turning those assets into maps and the repeatable nature of competition adds value to loot during periods with no new content Edit: also the thing with new modes that we've gotten is that they haven't become permanent fixtures of the game, they either show up for Trials/Crucible Labs once or twice, or rotate into Iron Banner once in a while (IB itself not being a permanent playlist either) So even if we have gotten new modes, on the day to day experience we don't get to interact with them And yes, Rift, Rift made it into the game permanently, GG, credits to Bungie for that but 1 permanent mode ain't it Edit 2: negativity and being stuck... yeah, that's all of D2, seasonal content has recieved general apathy for plenty of seasons and in general the monotonous grind has made a lot of people negative in PvE too, not to mention Lightfall in general as an expansion has recieved flak from all sides: a lackluster raid experience, 1 new strike, and a story that's somehow as bad as D1 vanilla There are other games with PvE out there too, and yet in the same way that i and others keep coming back for PvP, i also come back for PvE despite Bungie not changing the apathetic formula (which Joe Blackburn said they would be doing) I love Destiny, i want to play Destiny for it's PvE and PvP and i want both to be enjoyable and supported, i don't want to play other games that are better served on either side of the argument, i want Destiny
Well.... I think the PVP community is super sweaty, for sure. Makes it difficult for casual PVP folks to feel satisfied with the mode. But I want to say here... jwdslayer.... you're a very good player and have killed me a lot. But you also forced me to up my game and get better, in both PVP snd PVE. Have a good one, man.
Bottom line: we the players have every right to voice praise or complaints based on game performance. There is more chatter as the game has had more stability issues/ PvP cheaters/lack of new maps/strikes. It’s not only PVP that’s suffering. PVE also suffers. Why address the PvP players only?
Thank you for this very well-spoken piece. I'm so tired of people acting like the PvP community is some kind of devil out to get them and convert Destiny 2 into a PvP-focused game. Hopefully, this video reaches those people, because they're the ones who need to hear it.
The craziest thing about the pvp map discussion, is in the 3 year timeline with no new maps a large portion of the maps were straight up removed from the game with beyond light.
When they do give us a new map its Dysjunction😂😂😂
Yeah they could have represented that map release chart way better by plotting it against time along with the number of maps removed. That would have really driven the point home.
Didn't they mostly remove unpopular maps? 🤔
@@RuiNDieM1988 they removed 11 of the 31 maps that were in the game at the time. Thats more than a third of them, so its wildly unfeasible that all or even most of them were severely disliked by the majority of the community. And even if they were the 11 least popular maps, every single one was still _more_ popular than no map at all, which is all we got for a year after that.
Even now with three unvaulted maps, a reprised D1 map, and the only truly new map that's come out since Fragment in Season 8, we still have fewer total Crucible maps than before the DCV swallowed half the game. So, no, it has nothing to do with popularity. Don't try to frame this as anything remotely approaching what the players actually wanted.
@@RuiNDieM1988most yes, although I don’t get why they brought back unpopular maps like eternity and vostok and still kept maps nobody liked like twilight gap or convergence
This folks is how you provide constructive feedback that Bungie is more likely to respond to. TVs feedback is calm, collected and provides supporting documentation.
tv is truly the most level head in the whole community
True has taken this approach the whole time and I don’t see any changes do you?
Well tbh it doesn’t seem like Bungie responds to anything unless they HAVE to.
I agree he goes about it in the right way but either way Bungie ain’t listening
@@SilverSurfer17 exactly. Doesn’t matter if you show diplomacy like Truevanguard or come aggressively it makes zero difference. If players are still playing that means bungie still making money. Curse of Osiris was a turning point because players just didn’t play at all. They left. That birthed the existence of things like the forsaken expansion. Gladd’s whole point despite the terrible delivery and steps back in his point is that pvp players don’t leave despite the neglect. Despite constantly asking for things we never get. Assuming that right now what true vanguard is saying would somehow make a difference falls back exactly into the trap gladd is referring to.
Imo it’s a simple issue.
Bungie created Destiny with PvP in it, and as a core part of it, they are obligated to either continue supporting it, or tell us it’s a failed experiment and cut support.
Leaving it to slowly die off without any word on where they’re at with it is the worst possible thing they can do.
This. I play more PVE than PVP but it's in the game and there has to be supported just like the rest of the game.
This is what I think they are doing. Running pvp down on purpose, so they don't have to focus on it anymore.
They aren’t running it down on purpose, PvP seems like it was mostly activision focused compared to bungie main goals, imo they added it but not their main objective from the beginning to the end
@@deanie2477yep and I’m all for it
@@kddatrapmaneit smells like it was part of their core concepts for the game though. It's part of the lore, and even Gambit is going to have a big narrative pay off later. I think Activision tried to get them to focus on it with new modes to "add value" alongside the pvp players being so loud
Destiny’s original strength came from the combo of pve AND pvp. I can’t imagine how boring the game would be if it came down to just playing the same strikes, nightfalls, and raids that once you play you get a gun to go back and do it all over again. Main reason I quit after pvp went downhill.
I agree 100%! It's so fun getting a new weapon and trying it out in PvP. Getting killed by a weapon you don't know and wanting to try it out. Grinding PvE for the Perfect PvP roll!
As someone who quit due to lack of pvp support, u right
Maybe, maybe not
I'm level 1 autistic I literally JUST want a pure pve Destiny to Matrix myself into for the rest of my life lmao
I'm feverous waiting for Granblue Fantasy Relink
Exactly. These PvE mainers who suck at pvp are spiteful losers, who don't realize how much we grind for pvp. Or how little you need to grind for PvE.
What originally attracted me to Destiny back in 2014 was the way they advertised and pushed PvP as the main attraction. Maybe Activision had a lot to do with that. PvE barely had a story.
I liked the game better when they focused on updating core playlist and no/ less story. they are putting majority effort into the campaign and we still can’t count on it to be amazing..
The sentiment back then was definitely earned your guns in PvE so you can utilize and showcase them in PvP. I definitely remember those times.
@@jamarilittlejohn6345What we're seeing now with the seasons dying out so quickly is the lack of effort in core activities. I say it all the damn time! How can you expect people to stay engaged when you have like two to three hours of campaign stretched out over the course of 3 months? The true replayability lies in core activities. And Bungie already solved the free-to-play versus paid subscription dilemma with this in D1. All they have done is solve the problems, undo the solution, and end up at the same problem again. Story of D1. Story of D2!
@@jamarilittlejohn6345Same. The reason I could play Destiny 1 for hours straight were strikes and crucible. In the last 3 expansions we have gotten 5 brand new strikes. CoS and Warmind that totaled $30 and released within a few months of each other gave us 4 brand new strikes. I would much rather have a new strike with a season than horde mode #2048283. From a total of 14 seasons since the seasonal model introduction, 1 season has given us core playlist content. Bloating the strike playlist with battlegrounds is not updating the playlist. All it does is give me less reason to play the strike playlist. People stop playing the seasonal content once they get their roles for a reason. They are boring and clearly not designed to stay in the game for long.
That's wild cuz I always perceived the lore as the selling point lol I still thumb thru the D1 collectible field guide now and then
I’m glad he cleared it up that he does also acknowledge that destiny is not destiny without pvp, but I still hate the whole “it’s a PvE game first” argument because people miss interpret that as thinking bungie should put 99% of their effort into pve and 1% for pvp when it should really be more like 75-25
That's kind of what it should be, but Bungie is giving you 1% instead of 25%. I don't see that ever changing, as long as Bungie owns this IP.
I think it should be 50-25-25 because gambit and crucible are supposed to be core playlists according to bungie and gambit is even worse than pvp cause they have even less content than they started with.
@@romannoodl5 very true it’s like that meme of the mother playing with her little girl in the pool while the brother is struggling to keep his head above water. The girl is pve, the boy is crucible, and then gambit is the skeleton sitting at the bottom of the lake
@@JL32506 The most moronic thing about the crucible is how Bungie induce a meta which can very easily be foreseen and just let it marinate within the crucible for awhile like arc titan which even on paper, has a very low cost relative to the benefits it provides. It should never take SEASONS to adjust something which can very easily be seen as an outlier within the first month of it's release
I say 60-40. Also what’s gambit?
When I play destiny and complain they say "stop playing"
When I stop playing and still complain they say "you dont even play the game anymore"
Its just a bad excuse to ignore valid criticisms from people who just want the game to be better.
Strawman aside, most "valid criticism" is god damn awful, a bunch of armchair devs complaining about shit they don't understand nor give a shit about understanding, but act like they're lead engineers.
Suddenly every person is a game designer that has flawless ideas and easy fixes.
And don't get me started on the fact they want everything fixed overnight, thinking that every bug is the same level of complex, etc.
@@sebastit7d the best criticism for devs is honestly just "I don't like X, it makes me feel Y"
That being said, suggestions can be helpful too. I've seen suggestions from the PvP reddit actually end up being implemented in game and it ended up making the game better.
Main thing here is that devs know how to weed out the trash suggestions from the good ones so it honestly doesn't really hurt as much as you might think. It might make you feel bad to see people hating on your favourite game but it doesn't actually hurt the game to give feedback even if it might be considered trash/awful feedback. In the dev world all types of feedback are useful to some degree and you get used to separating the insults from the actual useful parts of the feedback.
When Gladd makes a video it's just to give a hot take that generates a million comments. He knows how to work UA-cam's algorithm
He reminds me of Mtashed or DSR. I could agree 100% with what they say in a video, but their aura of doucheyness just makes me hate them.
Something about him really gives me the ick. A certain shade of straight white guy that seems so privileged and out of touch they'd say something ignorant when they aren't on camera lol
🎯
Also, Gladd’s hot takes are hot garbage
@@oodeuce6926 Exactly.
He got big after MarcoStyle and others gave up...and they would just do entertaining videos of gameplay and avoid this.
Gladd is the typical youtuber/content creator.
I feel like a lot of Gladds take is disingenuous, he knows as well as we do that a majority of the pvp community does not think pve should be dropped to focus on solely pvp. The very idea is laughable, the blend between pve and pvp is a huge part of what makes destiny so amazing/unique. We just want some attention given to the part of the game we like the most lol literally any attention.
exactly i feel like hes making points that reflect maybe a handful of people meanwhile the rest of the PVP community isn't asking for all that. and he's way too pissed about it, like chill dude why you heff to be mad
a pve guy who says he's not trying to offend anyone and condemns this so called sphere of negativity while cursing for 60% of his video and creating strawmen all wrapped in a condescending tone just shows it's all an act
He’s Straw Manning clearly.
This feels like something made by a guy who's just lost his temper at either his chat, Twitter, or the Reddit. He's venting at a vocal minority he's sick of dealing with, and in so doing not representing what most sensible folks are thinking. It's like when Datto went off on the whole "Bungie nerfs based on usage" thing.
I wouldn't say so much he's setting up a straw man as he's not trying to address the entire pvp community. Destiny has a lot of really vocal and obnoxious fans, just take a look at the Twitter feed on the downtime extension announcements...people are losing their *minds* and being incredibly rude, and frankly telling some of those folks off is probably called for.
I wasn't there for the original context, but it sounds like an on-stream rant, made into a vid because people ranting gets clicks :|
It's definitely somewhat disingenuous, but I feel like that's more in terms of the fact that he's cross with a subset of folks and just shouting into the internet at large without clarifying.
Right. I feel like he is speaking for the minority. Can't help but feel the majority of us enjoy playing pve so we can go slay out in pvp with our new loot. I certainly wouldn't be playing Destiny as much as I do if it was just a pve experience...
Just because someone enjoys pvp doesn’t mean they don’t enjoy pve…
This
Destiny sold itself because it had both, and even today it's the only game out there in the live service market who does both competently (or did, back when PvP was actually relevant to Bungo)
Exactly, I adore both
Really? Ofc I’m only one person, but 99% of PvP players I’ve encountered enjoy PvP exclusively, only touching a raid or Dungeon if they absolutely NEED to.
@@Mudo-dq8dr i've never met anyone like that in my time with Destiny, i've met people with a strong preference for PvP but not to the point where they shun other activities or only do them when a meta weapon comes along
@@Mudo-dq8drI think what you’re meeting is people who don’t have a regular group to run that content. Pvp is about the only space for solo players. The strikes are fuckin brain dead.
I know for myself, my motivation to play PvE is to get cool stuff to use in PVP
Seeing how gladd is mainly a PvE guy I wouldn’t listen to a word he has to say about PvP
I don't even like his PvE takes causes he's always salty and whiney af
@@j1nftw1nI find him to be very toxic. Blocked him a while back because he wouldn't stop disrespecting regular players.
@@j1nftw1n true, he gotten so whiny that I’ve completely stopped watching his content.
He's a washed up has been trying to stay relevant by playing with younger players/streamers in his clan but I don't even think they can stand him the majority of the time 😂
Bungie has said multiple times in the past that they were gonna focus more on PvP and Gladd just doesn't acknowledge that fact.
Next time Gladd complains about something in PvE, we’ll ask him why he’s still here and to move on.
He doesn't even main Destiny 2 anymore and has moved on. You can actually play multiple games and still critique one that you put thousands of hours into.
@@worldeater6769 Yes you can, but when you start whining about a facet of said game you didn't even really play when you mained the game your arguments start to lose credence.
@@worldeater6769 He doesnt have thousands of hours in PvP ,why is he critiquing it then ?
@@grenadeshard it doesn't take a PvP main to realize how shit PvP is and the support for it
@@worldeater6769 maybe the whole game is bad
It's exhausting and draining to listen to Gladd tell me how much I shouldn't care about being lied to 😢
He's always been a clown. Only has a name cause of one terribly balanced raid.
he isnt saying you SHOULDN'T care, he's saying to STOP caring. pvp players are like people who watched a movie with a horrible ending and then just sat in the theater after the credits rolled asking "ok bungie when is the real ending?"
bungie abandoned destiny pvp. they arent going to give it the ending that pvp players deserve. its time to move on unfortunately
@@bannedmann4469 which raid
Hes right though, if your being lied to and feel abandoned then yes you will care but you need to stop caring and move on. Think about having a girlfriend and she cheats on you and treats you shit, yes you care but you will stop caring and move on with your life. Simple.
Almost as exhausting and draining to have to listen to a player base that contributes almost nothing in the way of revenue constantly gripe they they don't get anything when quite clearly they've been feeding of the teet of the PvE community for years. TV even proved it with his little visual representation of how many maps have been released after the game went live. There's a good reason why when Bungie release a new season and a new DLC that there's loads of PvE content, it's because that's what sells. Complaining that the local Ford dealership isn't giving you a formula 1 car for free with your Focus is almost as asinine. Especially when you have literally zero idea of how much more time and effort goes into creating a balanced PvP map over a linear progression PvE space.
Gladd really is the "who cares" of the destiny community, no matter what his take is.
He was never good at the game anyways or took it serious so I wouldn’t ever take his opinion at all
@@imstuckstepbro1934 You're fucking capping. He was good at the game when he was playing it everyday. Feel free to take his opinion or not, but he's a vet, played D1 and D2 since forever, he knows the insides and outs of the game. He's done so many challenges, very often coming up with the strats/setups by himself for when he did solo stuff, or with the partner(s) when he did duo/trio.
@@ShmueI being consisten on a game doesn’t make you a good player. He was decent in PVE but not good at PVP, simple
I’m not really a fan of Gladd but I don’t know if people saying he wasn’t good realize that the guy has MULTIPLE worlds first raid titles between D1 and D2. If that doesn’t qualify you as “good” at the game then i don’t know what else would.
@@imstuckstepbro1934he’s one of 8 ppl to be the hardest day 1 of all time and u say he’s not good? You sound bitter
I think bungie knows the pvp community will play no matter what they do, and that pvp mains buy way less cosmetics than pve mains. They have tons of data on these subjects while the customers have feelings on them.
Yeah when I say this is the dumbest take I’ve seen from a major Destiny content creator in a while, it truly is. You can tell he is NOT a PvP-minded dude. Leave it to the PvE mains to come out with the worst takes on PvP.
Its a pvp and pve game....meaning 50% of the game is pvp. No person pays 100% of something and is totally fine with only getting 50% of it. Just a brain dead take. Bungie should make better use of our money, theyre the reason this is an issue.
Not really, we PvE mains bring in the money so our dumb takes take priority over a PvP player.
Ok then, keep playing and keep being treated like shit, you got no one else to blame but yourself, you're not a clown, you the whole circus
@@axe2grind244false. Ppl do this all the time. People BUY games like Call of Duty to play the PVP aspect. Yet they’re paying for the campaign as well. 10% probably play the campaign lol. MOST RPGs if they even HAVE a pvp aspect make it very minimal part of the game. Some may never even dive into it. Elden Ring has pvp. But I’ve NEVER in my life heard someone say “yo let’s run some Elden Ring matches “. My point being, people pay for 100% of something but choose not to to partake in certain of aspects of games ALL OF THE TIME.
I was thinking the same thing watching the video this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about clearly.
And here I was, looking around for something to watch while I'm on lunch. I did NOT expect a side of drama with my dish today.
Never forget that Gladd insulted the entire console player base when he claimed that console players were just not as good as PC players, and that the benefits of PC over console were irrelevant to PC players being better at the game. He said this while PC players were using Recluse in raids are scout rifle distance, something that is objectively impossible for console players using a controller, and while many damage outputs were directly tied to fps which was always higher on PC enabling better dps phases for PC players than console players. He was not only unapologetic for his insults, but he bragged about the amount of followers he lost, further insulting them for being weak and whatnot.
Gladd can be very arrogant, narcissistic, and straight up stupid sometimes, so I don’t care what he has to say about D2. He may be good at gaming, but he is a terrible role model that I do not respect at all.
Great video and thoughts as usual, TV.
Not to mention he continues to complain about how accessible “Day 1” is to the community nowadays. Maybe take a taste of his own medicine and stop complaining about his team not being able to place 1st in Day 1 anymore, due to the difficulty of Day 1 raiding dropping immensely.
It’s wild to me how much Redeem complains as a whole, just to turn around and call out others for complaining.
Damage input and output are tied to FPS in this horrible engine.
Never heard of anything close to that in the history of gaming.
It's a horrible flaw.
It's still here in a lot of activities and with some weapons.
Refreshing to see someone talk about it cause how that goes under the radar for pretty much a decade now and nobody/most people don't complain or don't even know about it is mind-boggling to me.
It's actually hard to take a game like this so seriously as most fanatics do...I mean, this is some ghetto ass amauterish stuff.
I came to the conclusion that Gladd's a narcissistic idiot who thinks he's the smartest person in the universe years ago. He always has bad takes about the game.
Watching Gladd's video proved my opinion of him right once more. He talks about something he obviously has no clue about but is too self absorbed and convinced of his "omniscience" when it comes to Destiny, he didn't even bother with research. Just spouted nonsense for 20 min straight.
Still finishing the video, but I'm surprised you did not bring up that in that 2 year 2 month period during the Release chart breakdown that we lost 11 maps during that time.
I’m not too sure how this isn’t a, “hybrid” esque game. Gladd does know who made the Halo series up until Halo 4, correct?
Gladd is what we islanders like to call a "kaka hole".
Sorry i thought the game we were talking about is Destiny 2 not Halo? So every game bungie ever makes needs to have pvp in it? What a stupid take. Also, he said at the beginning that PVP shouldn't be removed, it just isn't a priority and so stop crying and expecting things.
@@crymoreyes Look everyone Mr Stupidtake talking about "stupid takes". Incredible!
@@joelmorningstar3645 got nothing to say so that’s what you resort to? Haha figures
@@crymoreyes yeh I resort to tossing you back your very own statement. Seems as though you love how it tastes.
As someone who sits roughly 40/60 on the PvE/PvP scale. The PvP community deserves to be mad with the underdelivered promises that have been drip fed to us. That being said the only way we are going to get any meaningful change to anything PvP related is we need more people to just take a break and go play other games for a while. TV said it right PvE moves the game forward but PvP sustains it. Once the numbers start dropping Bungie will do as they always have and (hopefully) make more improvements.
It’s funny because I hear PVE focus players complaining all the time. Maybe we all need to see Bungie playing us all and taking us all on the same ride.
gm weapon pools
better ways to level weapons
dungeon boss health pools
viable primary weapons
easier way to get exotics
better lost sector rates
ascendant alloy farms
red border drop rates
better season activities
foundry/world loot focusing
spicier vanguard strikes
the list goes on
for someone to go only pvpers are negative nancys and ruining the vibe for us pve-ers is so disingenuous and ofc we care about the pve side bc we should keep bungie accountable as one community
@@ewybean Accountable to what? What does bungie need to be held accountable for?
I agree that if people are really unhappy with the state of the game then it would just be better to move on and play something else. However to act like pvp players are complaining for no reason and bungie isn’t delivering on things they promised is such a bad take by Gladd.
The way TV worded everything was spot on but the way Gladd said everything was terrible man clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Clearly bias with no real time spent in PvP
@@musikzmylifeor living lol
He knows what he is talking about. He literally said that bungie have their on vision on pvp and stuff. So any complaints or whining from pvp players are not gonna be heard by bungie. You are still playing the game so that means you are still engaged player. They dont give a shit about your thoughts or feelings so long you are playing. They gonna do something only if they start losing numbers (like curse of osiris). If you couldnt see that in the vid then you are dumb im sorry.
4 years of vaulting maps and not pushing out brand new maps is insane
What Gladd is trying to say, it doesn’t matter what Bungie has said they are going to do with PvP (opening the tap) it matters what Bungie is done and doing. Actions speak louder than words. He’s saying stop expecting them to stick to their word when their actions clearly show that they won’t and haven’t for the last 3 years.
I think at the end of the day, we all want a stable game-with at least somewhat consistent and MEANINGFUL updates. Like yeah we all complain about our wishes but honestly? I think we could all come to agree we need reliability/consistency, and to get that…heart? spirit? Back into the game
For fucking $120 dollars I better have a fucking stable game, but we can't even get that
If you have never watched another True Vanguard Video this is a perfect example of what the man is all about. Insightful, considered, mature, and entertaining. Great video and an important discussion. Keep up the great work TV.
Unfortunately that first summit was due to the game literally dying and they had 5 weeks to hurry up and find a solution. Now they don’t really care (bungie corp not bungie devs) and it’s supported by the gdc.
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Yeah I think destiny has focused more on PvE than pvp. However, I feel like the importance of pvp in the past has made the game feel that the game is 50% PvE and 50% pvp.
And yeah where people get confused is what the pvp community wants. They don’t want the same attention as PvE, we just want what was precedent a few years back.
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I think the only time the pvp community wanted a competitive destiny was the release of destiny. But we just want the game to be balanced and a competitive mode. Wanting a comp mode isn’t the same as wanting pvp to be competitive. When the community talked about wanting pvp to be balanced, it’s almost 100% agreed upon that the 30th anniversary was near perfect in terms of balance for pvp.
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I dont know where he got the idea that the community wants bungie to drop PvE and prioritize pvp. We just want pvp to get the attention it used to get
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Overall it’s unfortunate that Gladd comes out with a video misrepresenting the pvp community. Basically antagonizing the community over a false perspective.
Really well put together video/responses TV. Great use of past info and the graph to paint a picture.
Great video. As for the vibe, Gladd shouldnt act like the PvE side doesnt complain
Thé PvE side has complained to the point it’s actively made PvE worse. Instead of strikes we now have these shit novelty seasonal battlegrounds constantly versus the old system of a great raid each year and a suite of strikes that made for good nightfalls. It’s a load of half assed low skill shit added for “PvE players” and I don’t know who these players are. Go back to patrol zones for that stuff
Coming off d2 is like coming off drugs. It’s really hard but your happy when you finally are done and moved on
And you relapse and come back at some point unfortunately
@@dranktf yeah multiple times. But now I really don’t think I’ll be back personally. Games very stale to me
Its a lot easier when the drugs get more expensive and less potent...you almost get left with no other choice, which can be refreshing at times actually.
There's things to love about Destiny, but so much more that I hate. Like how anti player they are in many ways. Like I would have been copied Halo Infinite when it comes to season passes. It's easy money and it puts players time in their hands. Can go as fast or slow as you want, while also allowing those who missed previous seasons to benefit.
@@masamunetozziyou'll be back for final shape don't lie to yourself 😂
You can really hear that Gladd gets his points and views straight from reddit complainers and extremists 😂 the guy is not a reliable source to be taken seriously
Or he's talking to his twitch chat unscripted. Everything he's saying is what he thinks unfiltered
@@ghostlyrazgriz5228 it seems youre a naive fan of his, thank you for taking the time for doing your due diligence and defending the person you like, but as a regular person who may or may not use or scroll through reddit and hearing him that seriously is an L take, you cant be a big face of destiny content creation and deadass separate and advocate this PvE over PvP nonsense, every destiny player should know and appreciate that both modes make up destiny….destiny aint just “a pve game” thats toxic mentality dude, but i digress i dont have time nor is it my responsibility to teach dummies
@@justsomeguy2142 i dont even watch gladd. Last time i saw one of his streams was the community puzzle which we got bastion from
You dont need to watch many streamers to know how the content is put out. They either talk or rant to their chat. It gets cleaned up with a little editing. Then put on youtube.
TV obviously went into this video with more prep than gladd had for his. Which is obvious when you compare both
Oh, have I got a response.... So much so, I had to get off the phone and one the computer, so I have a real keyboard.
This will be in three parts: 1) My PvP pie in the sky dream, 2) my thoughts on Glad after watching this, 3) a minor editing critique.
1) My pie in the sky dream. Leverage AI to make maps. I do not know how large the data pack for a map is, but if we had something in the Vex space with the minimal textures, I think we could get realtime map generation. I think it should be in Crucible Labs, and have map voting at the end, where you vote on your over all like of the map, and specifics like: good spawn points? Good amount of verticality? Not enough or too many sight lines? Etc. The AI will learn and we will get better and better maps. It could also profile the players and give them feed back on what kind of player the AI thinks you are based on the maps. And workout what kind of maps are best for what skill levels. We could play a new map ever match, if we wanted, or generate a curated list of fan favor maps to put in rotation in the main play lists.
2) I am going to be as respectful of Glad as he is to the PvP community. He's a sh*t bag. Anyone who starts with, "I don't care what people think" and then proceeds to tell them they are stupid whiners? That is complete disrespect to the PvP community and I think far less of him as a person in the Destiny community. I spend the first week of the season in PvE. And then one day a week doing the weekly PvE maintenance, but the rest of the time, I'm on PvP two hours a night hanging out with friends. And the friends part bring up another issue with the elitist "just go play another game" attitude. This is where my friends are. It's like Facebook, everyone whines about it, but few leave because it's where they can connect with friends and family. PvP is much the same way for me.
3) Could you get the sound balance a little better? I could barely hear Glad unless I cranked the volume way up, and then when you would start speaking again, my ears would get blasted. I was trying to listen while driving, and had to keep adjusting the volume through the whole drive.
Thank you for your well thought out response to Glad. I'm happy you were able to give a counterpoint to his biased take on the PvP ecosystem.
There’s zero reason bungie can’t include one or two new maps per expansion. ZERO. They didn’t seem to have any problems doing it with much less income in D1, then again maybe all the energy spent in populating the eververse store has eaten up any crucible investment. Regardless, zero reason.
Does anyone else find Tv to be one of those content creators whose voices is just soothing or is it just me 😅
Tbf, it’s obvious that Bungie is done developing D2 outside the seasonal dripfeed. Anybody here still hoping for development beyond that should quit. I basically have.
This is just incorrect lmao
@@WHlSKYtx PVP development has been frozen outside the return of Trials since literally Forsaken. It’s over lol
Deadass. They keep saying the story will continue after the light and dark saga but like, how? Light vs Dark is literally the core of the universe. The plot, the lore, the narrative, the symbolism, the themes, literally all roads lead back to Light vs Dark, without that all you have are side stories, that are admittedly cool and can be the focus of a season but they can’t be the focus of they can’t carry a larger narrative.
@@zjaeriqsanders1731 it’s going to be some weak ass shit about reconstructing society, exploring new worlds, etc guaranteed.
@@ModuliOfRiemannSurfaces I really have no idea what they’re gonna do, on the one hand it seems like D2 is grinding to a halt and they’re focused on marathon, but on the other I can’t see them dropping destiny entirely for marathon, this game has single-handedly kept their company alive for the past decade, no way are they dumb enough to think they can afford to lose it
Negative energy is what this gladd guy give me…
More like asshole energy.
Pve players will always be the easiest to jump ship (D4 is showcasing this right now), even if the devs are focusing on that side.
Pvp is the glue that held D1 during lean content periods.
@@wat146 You act as if jumping ship is a bad thing, bet you're also the kind to call people "Bungie dickriders" when they're not whining about the game. Playing other games is completely fine if you're not feeling it. But PvP players love to pretend they're being held hostage and forced to play a game they hate, they're fucking idiots.
I remember when the forges came out and Gladd complained that the puzzle was too hard to get to the final forge. Why didn't he move on to another game?
The only D2 content creator who's PvP opinion I gave a damn about was Gernander Jake. His speech about the state of Trials and PvP in general hit the nail on the head
People forget the days lackluster PVE content was released all at once and turned dry after two weeks (outside of grinding raids for rolls and power). PVP had to carry the rest of the season/DLC without much to pursue. This is a 50/50 pve/pvp game that’s carried by the pvp community
Gladd when players want what they were promised🤬🤬🤬
I think there’s a giant bit of a monkey’s paw thing that happens with this. We’ve asked for a focus on PvP. What we don’t do is specify what we want that focus to be.
In the last year we’ve gotten: Trials overhaul, Trials labs, tons of Crucible labs, rift, eruption, fortress, supremacy, a few maps (I’m counting the new vex map and the returning two from this year. I agree they shouldn’t have been removed in the first place but technically it is a net positive from where we are currently), a complete comp overhaul and ladder system, the return of a whole bunch of armor sets (which for anyone who didn’t already have them which is a lot considering the amount of new players that’s something for us to chase, it doesn’t appeal as much to legacy players like myself but it’s still nice), weapon focusing at vendors, origin traits, new voice lines for Iron Banner, etc.
Even when we look back at times when BUNGIE has said there’s going to be a renewed focus on PVP they gave us Trials of Osiris (which while a returning mode was built from the ground up in D2). And I’d like to add that in Forsaken they made Gambit which is partially a PvP mode and they built up Gambit Prime and 6 maps for it. I know the two aren’t the same but it should be given credit where it’s due in this regard.
Speaking of Gambit that’s had the same problem. We got an overhaul in Beyond Light when we were promised more focus, we got it AGAIN in Witch Queen as well as a bunch of Gambit Labs. The problem is people didn’t like these things. What we wanted was an enhancement on the things that Gambit players liked about Gambit and to get more maps and new weapons for it. Instead we got it to where it is now and we say BUNGIE didn’t do anything. Well they did, we just don’t like it.
Same is true with Crucible. They added in SBMM, Airborne Effectiveness, overhauled trials, comp and Iron Banner. So they were doing a focus on these modes it’s just not what we wanted it to be. That’s the problem, it’s like a Monkey’s paw, we ask for stuff and we receive what we ask for. Doesn’t mean we’ll like it.
At least with Vanguard operations they added in the battlegrounds (which is why I think we don’t see strikes as frequently because they put the same work into making the strikes and the battlegrounds and we get over 3 of those an expansion. The amount of work is still there it’s just in different avenues.
This is all a long-winded way of saying I’m not defending BUNGIE from all criticism (god knows as a Gambit player I’ve got my fair share of it) but we have been receiving a focus like they say, but notice how they say “focus on” and not “designing more maps for” or “bringing new weapons into”. It’s not that they’re lying they’re just terrible at expectation management.
Couldn’t have said it better myself - excellent video as always TV. Only thing I would add (and I totally understand why you didn’t mention this) is the matchmaking has such a detrimental effect on the experience. They could change sbmm and lobby balancing and it would make a massive difference immediately. Hell I wouldn’t care if we never got another map or new mode again - just make the matchmaking better!
And come down harder on the cheaters.
It’s so weird how he tries to exaggerate people’s expectations for the PvP in this game. A single new map per year is not that much to ask for. They used to do at least a few per year. They can do that again if they wanted to. No one is asking for Destiny to be a PvP first game. They are asking for any attention at all to that side of the game.
I really respect how calm and concise you are addressing the points
I really like this video cause it helps me understand where pvp vets are coming from as someone who started in Shadowkeep, but at the same time I very much FEEL where Gladd is coming from. It's so frustrating, as someone who loves to play this game, to only see hate, vitrol and complaints on every forum and twitter/reddit post.
It’s a terrible take on it and I’m disappointed he even made the video.
He’s the definition of what people mean by out of touch streamers, he defends the lying billions dolla company instead of the player base that was lied to because the loud majority of them are toxic. Just wild
Not really. lol. It’s pretty accurate. Destiny really isn’t a serious PVP game. It’s a joke.
@@CoC_Lord The whole basis of his argument is invalid. The only reason we’ve continued to expect pvp to be supported is they continue to promise that. If it’s not a pvp game then why do they make playlists with adept weapons and chase items you can only get in pvp? Guy was tired of hearing the conversation on it and snapped. I won’t be paying much attention to gladd after this not that I matter to his viewership or anything.
@@jackreacher4547 except destiny used to pump a lot of content into pvp every year and pre beyond light said, “we have a renewed focus on pvp”. Went over 2 years without even a new map. Youre mad at a player base that was lied to and abandoned
@@zcodoedoe exactly lol, I love the pve and pvp. So I still love destiny but losing the pvp side while being told the whole time that they were going to add a bunch of content is just bull. The fact that streamers like gladd who should know more then anybody how pvp players feel attack them instead of bungie is so dumb
Gladd is spot on. Hes not telling people not to care about the state of things, hes saying you need to stop caring and move on to other games cause its been 10years and nothings changed and it never will. And i understand the drop off of maps from Forsaken to Shadowkeep but you also have to realise that that was 2019. Its been 4yrs and they havent picked up the map production so still expecting it at this stage is sad. And yes Bungie is 100% to blame and not the community but i dont understand why people havent just accepted the unfortunate reality. Especially now with the pvp team moving to Marathon the pvp community should expect even less.
Gladd is essentially saying “hey, things aren’t going to change and I’m tired of hearing you complain. So stop.”
As if the Destiny community isn’t entitled to voice where they would like Destiny to go.
I do agree that Bungie isn’t listening at this point and will not likely never support PvP like they used to, or to the degree the PvP community would like.
Hey TV, really well presented points. We just want Bungie to honour what they promised. I do think there is a definite disconnect between what PvP players want (or what I'd like to see) and what Bungie thinks we want. For me, If they just bought back the sunset maps rather than new game modes that would make a massive difference.
Funny how PVE being boring and stale made him barely play anymore and he always plays other games now lol, maybe PvP should be a bigger part of the game if that's the case..
As any therapist will tell you, "The best apology is changed behaviour" If bungie would just quit saying theyre gonna do these things and just actually deliver on half of them, we would all be fine
I hate the whole "destiny is a pve game" take. Back in 2014 PvP was HUGE and kept the game breathing during the offseasons. People often act like Bungie cant do PvP, when in fact they made some of the BEST PVP games back in the day (Halo 3, Halo Reach). Another example was curse of osiris (arguably the WORST season), the numbers in PvP kept the game breathing. D2 is FULLY capable of being a PvE and PvP game along with its niche PvEvP gamemodes (gambit). Its a problem that we haven't had a new pvp map in YEARS. Bungie putting attention to PvP is only going to make the game exponentially better, and a lot of these PvE only content creators push such a horrible take. We are not asking for PvP > PvE, majority of us just want SOME improvements and attention. For an example, make a seperate sandbox for PVP and PVE and have a dedicated team for PVP?
I think Datto has the right explanation behind why PVP isn't developed, and that's that it's not monetized. PVP is simply not directly monetized. Any possible profits from investing development time into PVP are second order effects from people buying more into the PVE side which is where all the transactions are.
I think PVP has always been a loss leader for Bungie, and they just decided it wasn't financially worth it, and that they'd get more profit from just investing 100% or nearly 100% into PVE.
The piece is see repeatedly being overlooked is that PvE and PvP are dependent on each other. There are a nonzero number of players who only buy seasons and do pve in order to get things to use in PvP. The reverse I’m sure is also true. For Gladd to say PVPers can just move on if they don’t like it, is short-sighted at best. If all the PvP players left the game, the pve side would also suffer when the player count plummets and the game dies overall. I agree it was never meant to be a competitive shooter, but it’s not unreasonable to expect it to be playable. Recent matchmaking and other changes make it barely tolerable, and without some attention, both pvp and pve will suffer for it.
Why are we still here? Because the foundations of the game are amazing. The feeling and potential are miles above the rest. “When it’s good, it’s amazing” is a difficult proposition to leave on the table, particularly when there’s no one out there doing the way that Bungie *could* be doing it. We’re so close to the product we want.
That’s why we’re still here.
I like Gladd and all, he seems like a good dude and usually I agree with him but when I saw this video from him I thought it was a pretty terrible take. I do think Bungie hardly gives two shits about pvp anymore and it really shows. It doesn't make them money. It's a shame too.
Which is crazy because it only stopped making money when they stopped supporting it. Trials saved destiny 1, and grenader Jake is the biggest destiny streamer and he was almost exclusively pvp for years
Funny how people show you who they are and still folks find a way to be in denial and scrub their image clean for them…
I like how mature your responses always are. Thank you for that!
Always be skeptical about a company promises.
Appreciate that you turned this into more detailed commentary from the PvP players perspective. At the end of the day I think we all should judge based on what Bungie does not what they say. I strongly think Destiny lost its way in the last couple of years, the passion I had for it has diminished and I am hanging on solely because I have so much time invested. Feels bad….
It’s so sad that this is the common treatment us pvp lovers get ): it makes me feel like I wasted a lot of time and money
It all coincides with F2P at shadowkeep, they couldn’t find a way to monetise PvP without splitting the playerbase. So they decided to not invest in it anymore. It’s a very conscience decision.
7:08 I disagree, my most played time in Destiny 2 was when Luna’s Howl, Not Forgotten, Mountaintop, Recluse, and Revoker were available. Everyone wanted them, they were SUPER strong, and it got even PvE mains to play. That in my opinion was when the game was at its best, when people were actively playing PvP a lot. Recently it just hasn’t been the same with lack of incentive to play. The game is not at its core a PvE game whatsoever imo. Both Destiny 1 and 2 have both had Crucible as a core activity since launch so to say that especially with how boring and repetitive PvE has been lately, is just wrong. This is coming from someone who kinda quit playing over the last few months. I have around 525 VoG Sherpas, have flawless title and gilded the Unbroken Title all 6 times, pre ordered Destiny 1 and played the beta same with D2. I just hopped on for the first time in a while yesterday and honestly had fun but kinda shocked with the lack of game modes to pick from 💀
Agreed, the forsaken era was overall the best pvp and pve, the grind for NF in my opinion was One of the harderst weapon to obtain back then if you don’t have 2 pretty good pvp players on your team. When i hit 4000+ is was pure sweatys and streamers all the time 😆🥵
They sad part is it has so much potential to be a top tier pvp experience, but had only going down since forsaken
@@heatdk8535 yep it was just fun chasing pinnacles every season now it’s pretty bland.
Friend and I have said for years that a Destiny 2 Forge would singlehandedly satisfy PvP players forever.
i dont even know who this guy is. just from starting out of context clip i saw i feel like i am not gonna like him. people dont want to move on from a game they invested so much money and time into. they have a reason to voice their opinion especially in a live service game where they are charging full price for a year content.
there are lot of games that made a huge comeback with players voicing their opinion. games like final fantasy online had huge uproar from its player base and eventually devs listened and made a full recovery and revamped the entire game with relm reborn and its a big success and one of the most beloved mmorpg.
i hate people who think paying for a product and if u dont like it .. just stfu and move on. i would move on if they refund me when i am unhappy or i will just vent out my frustration especially since there is a good game somewhere in there.
Bungie has never and will never truly care about what its player base wants. While they may have seemed to answer feedback directly, they have always proven to us that their own directives take precedence over the wants of the community. Because of the amount of time I have put into this game, I choose to overlook and even ignore this. I don't want to stop playing and I don't want to constantly be annoyed that Bungie doesn't listen. If you can't handle the fact that Bungie does not care about its players, and this ruins the game for you, there are other games that have developers who do cater to their player base more.
It's nice to see the D2 youtubers doing these reaction style videos. I get to see content from personalities I enjoy, even if the game is meh right now
I watched this with Aztecross the other day but your views and input was really good and helped me see things differently
Season of the Crucible! Where we relive the creation of the crucible starting from the battles leading up to twilight gap.
So, after 10 years and close to the finale of this saga you want a reboot or something of that fashion?
Are you serious?
A better metaphor is that there are two kids, one standing at an empty PVP buffet line and one at the full PVE line. Gladd is saying to stop being disappointed at that empty buffet line, go to a different restaurant.
The problem to me is simple: Bungie moved on. Destiny is on ICU and it will be until it dies. And that's natural.
Destiny isnt an MMORPG. It isnt a pvp focused game. And it will be done when this saga ends.
It's in hospice. Not even life support. A doped up comatose, fever dream at death's door.
They have said otherwise multiple times. What are you talking about?
@@mackncheese1683 Like they said that we will be getting a renewed focus on PVP ? Surprised you can even breathe with an IQ that low
@@mackncheese1683they also said pvp was going to get meaningful attention multiple times. Then they put their entire PvP team on a new game
I rarely ever play PvP, so this was very helpful to better understand the vibe in the PvP-community. That map chart and the fact that a lot of those maps were sunsetted…. I understand your dissapointment. Bungie has really been failing the PvP-community for years.
HOW DARE PVP PLAYERS IN DESTINY HAVE AN OPINION!
Graphs make all the difference and thank you for putting in all the time you did into this video. I always used PVP as my way to rank up each season. My stats will never indicate the amount of fun I have had over the years and will not complain, but I really do enjoy Control and 1 game where you have a monster k/d makes it all worth it.
I play destiny for its pvp and new pve content and I avoid grind as much as possible. I just want new maps. Even d1 maps.
As a hardcore Destiny player and more casual PvP goer, I gotta say that the loss of some of the maps we had throughout the years still hurts.
I know alot of them weren't balanced, the ones we have still aren't 'balanced' anyway. I miss Retribution and The Citadel even now. Maps like Reteibution are too small for how fast the game moves currently, but the chaos that map offered was so much *FUN* imho. I wish they'd just give us those vaulted maps back, and not one every couple of seasons, I'd like them all back so it feels like there's more maps in rotation than friggin Fragment and Disjunction...
Honestly I just want Shaxx to have a role in the story, like I’ve been waiting for that forever!
When TV said, “See you in the next video” and not crucible, it hurt me down deep
TV! Long time listener, first time caller. Appreciate you taking the time to break down the video with your own thoughts and feedback. You did a great job capturing the spirit of PVP feedback, or at least in my opinion. I've loved Destiny since alpha days, and it has been a point of frustration for me and many others, obviously who lean more into the PVP side of things for replayability rather than the PVE side. Thanks again for all of the content you've made and continue making. Best wishes for you and your family, and looking forward to your future content, as always.
I realized also, after having some passing thoughts on it last night, that the situation reminds me of past work experiences where development teams are more interested in completing a minimum viable product within the timeframe and promising a "fast follow". Then fast forward 6, 12, 18 months and these "fast follows" are still off in the distance somewhere.
If pvp did not matter then they would not have promoted " A renewed focus on pvp". Transparency is what people are angry about becuase after they split from Activision, they could have said that the game would have a PVE focused game a lot of the community could have made their own decisions at that point instead of highlighting parts of the game they did not intend to put focus on.
Now we're reaching the point of feasting on one another man...seriously though. As a pve player primarily now. People need to stop dumping on the crucible. Also. Fuck the sentiment that gbit needs to go. Gambits usually the healthiest playlist you chunks.
Gambit would be more interesting if, instead of an arena setting like Crucible, it took place in the open world. In fact, most MMOs have some form of open world PvP, whether it's opt-in or a special 'Dark Zone' where people in certain parts of certain areas can be attacked by other players... and then have PvE challenges within it. My main problem with Gambit is the amount of cheating that goes on.
@@Krantzstoner I can agree. I don't play on PC but I've heard how bad it is over there.
Yes, Bungie did say that they wanted to get back to building on the crucible. And that they wanted to open the tap. But they did also mention that they were going to do labs. Which seems like to me that was them opening the tap on crucible. If you look at your graph, you can see that after Activision split with Bungie PVP got a little more scarce. So what that says to me is that Activision was handling a majority of the PVP side of the game or at least lending a lot of help and that is evident when you look at the graph and where you said that they split and what followed. Bungie never said that they were going to release X amount of maps. That is just players expecting it to stay the way that it was from the few seasons after launch. So if you look at it objectively the fact that anyone would expect them to release X amount of maps over a specific period of time is an expectation that someone set in their mind, on their own. And I think that is exactly what Gladd was trying to explain here.
The only good point he had there was why is the pvp community still here? You can’t be objective about your point when you turn around and call the pvp community entitled, despite the lack of support and I would encourage gladd to look up the definition of that word. Also stating that our negative energy is ruining the game, really plays in to the whole “why are we still here?” Gladd doesn’t realize but with that he just spoke for a huge margin of the toxic pve community that believes pvp should be dropped from the game and honestly sounds like he is in that camp himself.
We are all in the destiny community but you can’t even rely on the community to have our back, and I’ve seen some really grotesque opinions from the pve side.
Bungie doesn’t support pvp and the pve community thinks our negative energy is ruining the game, so why ARE we still here?
I'm just here to keep ruining Destiny 2 for Gladd with my 'toxic' entitlement. Of course, I'll never be as successful at griefing Gladd, as Bungie themselves. ;P
Words cannot express how desperately I wish for another game to come out that feels as good to play as Destiny but is better supported
When D1 and D2 had rough time and dry in PVE content , PVP what kept it alive
I remember when players quit D1 after king's fall no PVE content for 1 year > only PVP players where there.
Yes it's a PVE first game but PVP is also very important
I play both sides, but I’ve never understood Gladd’s appeal. That’s the comment, peace out, don’t care what he has to say so won’t actually watch the video, but wanted to say Gladd’s opinion does not matter at all.
No one's does. As long as Bungie sees Destiny is being talked about they are happy. The money is still rolling.
I feel like Gladd went for the "red pill" kind of aproach, aka he's way to agressive and over the top, while saying the right thing. I dont really like the delivery, cuz the point is not controversial, the way he gets to it is! That's where TV comes in! 10/10 vid, deconstructing those points, getting to the core and getting the clear, real point. Its also great to have someone capable of being polite to get the PvP community PoV across to everyone else! Also a little extra, that segment of "being abe to change your opinion is a good trate" was a beautiful way of saying please listen, im defenetly gonna use that in my life xD
They can't imagine a Destiny without PvP, but they continually pursue endeavors that actively prove that it's not the case. Bungie in 2023 is built on unfulfilled promises.
Part of the problem is the "season of the crucible" people are very vocal on reddit and Twitter, which is where most of the PvE players see the opinions of the PvP community. If the pariahs of the community aren't called out by the majority, then people who are not in that community will assume that the community agrees with the pariahs. That is just how society works in general.
Also, as far as the competitive side never really wanting much, the amount of threads about leaderboards show otherwise.
For a game that is pve focused, its pve is pretty lackluster imo you always hear talks about the power creep is real with this and that. if d2 had real power creep we'd be killing raid bosses as fast as lost sector bosses. but in all honesty destiny's "power creep" is pretty poor compared to other titles I.e. (and I hate to compare) Warframe where you can literally kill every thing even bosses in one shot, insta nuke rooms and never die. once season of haunted came out and they added the 40%(now 30%) dr from resil pve became even more mind numbing then it already was. but lets be real every season/expansion can be done in 3 days but they time gate everything. I mainly play pvp and I get that is a pve focused game but the only time pve is at the "top" is when a new season/expansion or a new raid/dungeon drops and that lasts for about 2-3 weeks. "what about the seasonal story" time gated enough said. so what carries the game that's been neglected for the past 4 years......pvp, iron banner, comp, trials are what people are watching for streams, why do you think the biggest d2 streamers are pvp focused cause is the thing that is carrying the game even though that its been a mess for the last 2 years (30th meta come back ) I have never heard some say let me tune into so and so they are farming lost sectors/seasonal activity or doing the story. but you hear more of lets see what (TV, panduh, wallah, etc) are doing in trials, comp and iron banner. its sad and a little funny that the games main focus gets over shadowed for 70% of the season for a game mode that they pretty much abandoned, like @zjaeriqsanders1731 said its should be 75/25 pve/pvp but what we get is here's reskinned/sunset guns that you can get again and reskinned activity's and 1 map its sad cause this game could be so much better then it is.
P.M i know its a hard hot take but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
“Gladd’s video did not imply that the complaints of PvP players are invalid". Instead, I think it is suggesting that players should recognize that Bungie is unlikely to respond to their complaints at this point. The PvP developers are currently working on Marathon, so perhaps players should invest their passion and time into games that have well-supported and enjoyable PvP rather than Destiny 2. Most, if not all, of Final Shape is already being developed, so I think it is unlikely that Bungie will introduce new maps and game modes for PvP at the end of this game.”
It's this kinda toxicity that drives people away from the game, L Gladd take
Only here supporting TV, can’t wait till you cover a new game
TV said it in a video ages ago about "setting expectations." Letting Gambit and Crucible stagnate without new content hurts a sizable part of game. Having people that play game leave will only hurt entire community. Agree that constant negativity is painful however people speaking out hopefully will call attention to "Destiny 2"'s failings. Hope Bungie reads or hears comments at least and can see constructive criticisms and not just kneejerk ignore certain complaints.
Man, I feel for the Gambit enjoyers. That mode has so much potential but gets even less than the crumbs the PvP community gets.
As a mostly PvE player for a while now: Destiny is not a PvE first game, or at least it wasn't at the launch of D1
Destiny is PvE and PvP, PvE provides new content and worldspaces to grind for gear, and PvP should benefit from the new worldspaces by turning those assets into maps and the repeatable nature of competition adds value to loot during periods with no new content
Edit: also the thing with new modes that we've gotten is that they haven't become permanent fixtures of the game, they either show up for Trials/Crucible Labs once or twice, or rotate into Iron Banner once in a while (IB itself not being a permanent playlist either)
So even if we have gotten new modes, on the day to day experience we don't get to interact with them
And yes, Rift, Rift made it into the game permanently, GG, credits to Bungie for that but 1 permanent mode ain't it
Edit 2: negativity and being stuck... yeah, that's all of D2, seasonal content has recieved general apathy for plenty of seasons and in general the monotonous grind has made a lot of people negative in PvE too, not to mention Lightfall in general as an expansion has recieved flak from all sides: a lackluster raid experience, 1 new strike, and a story that's somehow as bad as D1 vanilla
There are other games with PvE out there too, and yet in the same way that i and others keep coming back for PvP, i also come back for PvE despite Bungie not changing the apathetic formula (which Joe Blackburn said they would be doing)
I love Destiny, i want to play Destiny for it's PvE and PvP and i want both to be enjoyable and supported, i don't want to play other games that are better served on either side of the argument, i want Destiny
Well.... I think the PVP community is super sweaty, for sure. Makes it difficult for casual PVP folks to feel satisfied with the mode. But I want to say here... jwdslayer.... you're a very good player and have killed me a lot. But you also forced me to up my game and get better, in both PVP snd PVE. Have a good one, man.
Bottom line: we the players have every right to voice praise or complaints based on game performance. There is more chatter as the game has had more stability issues/ PvP cheaters/lack of new maps/strikes. It’s not only PVP that’s suffering. PVE also suffers. Why address the PvP players only?
I think he should seriously take that video down lmao, not a good take at all.
Thank you for this very well-spoken piece. I'm so tired of people acting like the PvP community is some kind of devil out to get them and convert Destiny 2 into a PvP-focused game. Hopefully, this video reaches those people, because they're the ones who need to hear it.