Thanks to the person that sent Tim their gun. Tim is obviously a very trustworthy dude, but sending your personal firearm to someone you've never met is still something that most wouldn't do. So, if you happen to see this, thank you for making this video happen.
I agree, he is not only a good and trusting person, he did it in the hopes of helping the community as a whole. There is a lot of baseless speculation out there and we wanted to try and cut through some of it. Him sending a known problematic gun helped us convey this info and hopefully in the end it plays some part in helping CZ get the issue resolved.
One more time MAC proves that deserves to have double subscriptions...zero drama zero BS assumptions , only tests and facts. thanks Tim and Jason for another great video.
I have an update on my CZ bren2 7.62x39 right when I got the gun I installed the HB Industries adapter to use AR mags because CZ mags were not available. I had no issues with that set up. Recently I switched back to CZ mags and started to have issues. I saw a video that said that the gas regulator from the 11 inch 5.56 bren 2 was the same as the 11 inch 7.62x39 and that it worked on setting #1. So I ordered a gas regulator from Europe Outdoor and a week and a half later I got it. I installed the new 5.56 gas regulator from the 11 inch bren 2 and the heavy piston spring from HB Industries and my Bren runs very nice now, no issues and the casings fall at 2 and sometimes at 3 o'clock. So problem solved for me. Thanks for making this kind of videos helping us to figure out how to solve this issues. Keep up the great work. Be safe and God bless.
I have/had a 14 inch cz bren. Purchased it almost 2 months ago and have only around 1000 rounds thru it, but I am certain I fixed the issues I was having. My first range trip included atleast 1 if not more FTE every mag. I also experienced a much sharper recoil then most any other gun ive shot In 7.62. I started to believe the hate train on the cz bren but decided to start fixing it myself. My second trip out I tried different ammo. Something I discovered was that it will run supersonics and give me a FTE once a mag but also run subsonics perfectly. This surprised me as most guns I've owned required a separate gas setting to run both. This started to lead me to believe the gun is wayy overgassed and running too fast. It would explain the harsh recoil and the FTE. My first idea was to order a new gas key but cz was down for awhile so I went another route. I chopped my barrel from 14inch to 9inch. This in turn lowered the gas pressure dramatically. The supersonics now run 100% after 600 round test and the subsonics required me to drill the adverse setting a tad bigger to run properly. I fully believe the guns are overgassed, either with incorrect gas port sizes on the barrel or incorrect sizes on the gas key. This is just a sample size of 1 but I believe I fixed mine
Nice, mine was originally 14” too, and I did the exact same, chopped to 9 and added a cherry bomb for suppressor. Didn’t have any issues at 14, I wanted a 9 to begin with but none were available so I went 14 and chopped
@@s00-x2h why? 9” is what i wanted anyway, and it was chopped and re threaded by a professional with perfect concentricity. To each their own, go do what you want with your money lol
@@alexmacksey4510 buying a 9'' gun and buying a 14'' and then chopping it down to 9'' are two different things man. Anyway yeah just do what you want with your money lol
@@worldfamousgi86 It has and almost always was magazine problems with the AR. A lot of bad talk for years from vets in Vietnam who didn't like a plastic gun, and didn't blame poor choices like the lack of a drain port on the mags. When the civilian market took over, it was found that it is leaps and bounds better than the AK.
@@worldfamousgi86 research it again this time use proper Data source and you will know how bureaucracy and incompetent( the idiot who want to cut cost M16 ) can Fuckup good rifle( XM16 ). the more you know about Eugene Stoner, the more you feel sad for him. he is a genius guns designer with the bad luck as possible. he create M16(AR15) and then some idiot fuckup his rifle ( they changed from good quality 25 round steel Magazine to cheap bad quality 20 round aluminum magazine And ammunition using wrong gunpowder ) this gun basically got sabotage by us Ordnance Whether they are intentional or not. after that he create AR180 and then got f***** by u.s. ordnance again And after that it was copied by Enfield , HK and Howa( license ) Enfield create SA80 It basically AR 180 turn it to bullpup rifle and then some idiot fuckup this rifle by cut cost it( god dammit, the government love to cut cost everything ) HK create G36 They change a lot but the bolt still look identical Howa create Type 89 It has never been exported outside Japan due to its strict anti-hardware export policy. It is known in JGSDF service as Buddy.
This is an FYI to Everyone that OWNS a 7.62x39 Bren 2MS 14 inch barrel and could also benefit the 11 inch owners. I finally got a chance to take my 14 inch Bren 2MS that now has a PWS FSC Compensator 30 (5/8x24) Muzzle Device to get me to 16.5 inches once it was Silver Soldered in place. I also added the following HBI items the HK 36 Folding Stock, Trigger, Sear, High Load Spring and the 10.8 inch Handguard that was Torqued to 44 IN-LBS instead of 45 IN-LBS. The Reason I reduced the Torque is that I noticed that when I installed the Handguard the First time the Bolt was NOT Seating and was Staying OUT OF BATTERY so I loosened the Screws and Tried AGAIN the Second TIME I got all 4 screws at 44.8 IN-LBS but the BOLT was NOT AS SMOOTH and it was having ISSUES SEATING Correctly! So I decided to Try Again but this time I would go to 44 IN-LBS and BINGO everything was SMOOTH and the Weapon Feed Snap Caps from the Magazine without Issues! I had to make arrangements to get the Barrel done so I had to take off the barrel and take it to get it done since I do not have the Equipment to Silver Solder the Muzzle Device in Place. When it came back last week I was ready to take it to the Range and I did this WEEKEND. I used the BLACK Magazines with the Window 5 different Magazines using Tula 123gr Steel Case FMJ and I fired 300rds thru the weapon on Saturday with ZERO Malfunctions! When the Barrel Came back I did run a Otis Ripcord thru the Barrel and I did lube the Bolt carrier. I HAVE A VERY STRONG FEELING that THE MAJORITY OF THE MALFUNCTIONS ARE BEING CREATED BY the VERY LOOSE REAR PLATE that CZ USA put in the BREN to make it a PISTOL since the Operating Rods are Wobbling during the Firing Process and the EXTREMELY WEAK Piston Spring that CZ USA Put in the weapon and IF the Handguard Screws were Over-Torqued that would make account for many of the MALFUNCTIONS!
CZ needs to get hot on this. It is unacceptable that an expensive military design like this to have this level of problems. It looks like the additional dwell time in the 14” is only compounding the problem. Hopefully CZ will issue all owners new gas regulators, and perhaps updates to the bolt and carriers
This is definitely a severe oversight by CZ. How do you overgass a gun so much, even steel case has issues. Probably the reason why Bren lost military trials to Kalashikhov concern in Pakistan and others.
I would send Tim anything for testing. The dude is beyond reproach. Having said that...big thanks to the person who sent this malfunctioning gun in so that he can help figure it out.
Good day Tim, my older AR also suffered from the radical forward ejection your CZ seems to have. I wound up altering the brass deflector angle rearward via a hard rubber wedge JB welded to the face of the factory one. I experimented with angles and rubber compound before the permanent JB adhesion and found a small, five degree wedge of truck tire tread resolved the issue. The rubber wedge altered both the angle and distance of the extracted brass, both for the better, and I shot the heck out of that rifle for many years with no more problems. Well done video, as always, and I hope CZ acknowledges the problem and addresses it. Good luck sir!
Your AR was/is still way over gassed. Changing the angle of the brass deflector doesn’t solve the over gassing problem. Over gassed guns increase wear on all moving parts and should be corrected.
@@sackychin6267 Yep, I learned about that aspect as I became more familiar with AR’s. I was in my teens (early 80’s) and still green with that platform. The rifle is no longer with me but I’d sure like to see it again to finally remedy the issue correctly. 👍🏼
I know this was 2 years ago, but has CZ corrected the problem since then? MAC mentions there's two gas systems- a standard system used in 14"-16" barrel models, and a distinct system used exclusively in the 11" models. My first thought was, "Did the 11" gas keys end up getting used in the other models by accident?".. I would assume with shorter barrel length, there's less gas pressure to manage in the 11" models, and I'd assume that means the key ports would be larger to allow more gas flow to assist the bolt carrier (Compared to the 14/16" which probably has smaller ports.) Just curious if maybe somewhere along the assembly line 11" gas keys were getting mixed into the 14/16" gas systems, which could be adding to the already overly gassed systems.
Wow. I have the Bren 2 Carbine in 5.56. No malfunctions what so ever. However after shooting at an indoor range I was about to clean the brass from the floor and noticed I had nothing to clean. Your explanation about the shell casings being ejected at the 2 o'clock position makes sense, then I actually saw it happening. Casings were flying into the range.
i havent watched the whole video yet but wanted to let ppl know that removing the deflector helped mine. it used to stove pipe a couple times a mag, hasnt stovepiped sonce i removed it about 200 rounds ago. a solution that might help ppl that dont want to drill a hole in the gas port. (fyi i will still probably do that at somepoint, but this is an easier fix for the time being)
Some suggestions to try: Stronger EJECTOR spring. This would help the case have a more rear aspect on the shell deflector. Also, non permanent. Removal / Replacement of the shell deflector. 7.62 is a little butt-heavy. It seeks that in these malfunctions the casing IS making it's way out, and then is inertially stopped by the deflector. Stronger recoil spring. This would slow the bolt velocity down a tad allowing the round to flip out a touch sooner. Would also likely iron out the recoil impulse a tad. What amazes me is that even overgassed, it does not seem to be kicking out brass with a lot of "authority." My main focuses would be ejector plunger spring (I bet they used springs sized for 5.56 brass weight) and the deflector being more AR like.
Mine flames hard, especially now that I have the 10.8 HB handguard that completely encloses the port and shoots massive flames through all the mlok slots. Do not enjoy shooting this thing much now.
Hb industries is offering gas port hole drilling and stronger piston springs for all pistol sizes. It's also at a pretty good price. $60 to drill a suppressor setting in the 3rd position and a stronger spring is included. I bought a spring and I'm gonna test it tomorrow.
I posted the comment about ejection problems on my 14” Bren 2 after I put 2” muzzle extension on it. It sounds like switching to suppressor settings improved the situation. I just put flawlessly a 50 rounds through it. Keeping my fingers crossed for the best :)
I think youre spot on the conclusion. If both BCG and smaller port reduced the problem, makes me think they have both overgas problems and mayb a manufacturing defect with ejectors/extractor/bcg.
Wow, that is a thorough analysis.... really curious if there's going to be some conclusion on CZ side regarding this problem. If swapping gas plug is a solution that would be great... simple fix :) let's see
Took the new 14" CZ sent me out yesterday. Ran 120 rounds through it with no problems thus far. Still feels over gassed, so I am skeptical that it won't start having FTE issues. Also ran 180 rounds through my new PSAK GF4. Love the PSA.
I'm wondering if the 14" barrel is too long for the gas settings? Much longer dwell time than the 8" and 11" versions, which might be causing the over-gas issues.
Looks a lot like my Tavor running a can with 5.56 pressure ammo. The overgassed BCG impacts the buffer hard enough to bounce which causes stovepipes. I've gone to the 25%+ spring from Shooting Sight which helps greatly even though it is still not 100%.
2:28 First red flag for overgassing is a tendancy for the firearms performance to improve with use. Slight carbon build up reducing the available gas into the system with a positive effect tells you all you need for preliminary diagnosis.
@ytuploads9742 no, use tends to clog things up with unburned propellant and carbon. That's why we clean our guns. Erosion only occurs after a long time. Corrosive ammo is rare these days, depending on the country of origin. The hard facing and heat treatment of working firearm components will take years to wear, unless it is a poor quality part.
Overgassed issues can often be overcome by using a stronger spring. DWELL TIME is obviously too low. Similar things occur in tuning an AR. It is a 3 legged stool to balance: Gas, Mass, and Spring. Many top tier manufacturers now use Sprinco springs , which are available in many different strengths, to get the best match for reliability.
Tim did you try firing either weapon using the adverse gas setting? If the weapon is indeed over gassed we would expect these types of stovepipe failures to increase . Correct?
Mine is currently at CZ and they must have enough guns now as they are now offering refunds and have also "ordered parts". It's hard really getting any information from them about an ETA as their customer service is garbage.
Thanks for the work Tim. Been follow the forum thread since almost the beginning and hate that it's turned from excited enthusiasm of a new platform to gloom and doom and woe is me. I understand their frustration but man I think it's been over blown. Can't wait for CZ to get their stuff together and get these things fixed so we can go back to discovering this awesome new gun. Aftermarket was quickly growing for the Bren 2 and I feel like once these complaints started popping up that progress has more or less halted. Crazy how the internet can make a few seem like a lot. Anyone heading over to the forum just make sure to note the names of the users having issues. If you don't it'll seem like hundreds are having issues but in fact it's more like a dozen. They are just very vocal.
I would disagree with that statement. Between the various forums, Reddit, UA-cam, and various FB groups, the problems with the 7.62x39 do indeed appear to be widespread. With these guns being so new and ammo in short supply right now, it’s just taking longer than usual for the problems to materialize. More reports from new owners are showing up everyday on these various sites, so the problem does appear to be systemic on these particular models.
@@neptunetriton I know that a few of the guys in the ARFcom forum are the same people in the facebook and reddit threads. They've stated it in some of their post which again make me believe it is getting overblown. The same people in multiple places shouting their frustration make it seem more wide spread. Now to be clear I am not saying the issue does not exist just saying that it is being made out to be something much worse than it actually is which can if not already has effected the platform in a negative way on the civilian market.
Thankfully the 5.56 version does not have these issues. I’ve put roughly 1200 rounds through mine and the only malfunction I had was caused by a standard US military surplus magazine. The gun loves Pmags I’ve learned
It almost looks like the angle/size of the brass deflector is sending them right back into the action. Like as if it's too steep an angle given the ejection force of the over gassed gun.
I have a cz Bren 2 ms as well with a 14” barrel 7.62. Legit would not feed a second round into the chamber after I would fire the first round. Not sure if this is the same issue you are discussing but clearly mine was just much much worse considering it wouldn’t even cycle a second round. I have a couple videos as well I could send you in case you wanted to see what I was able to capture during the video. If you do want this for some additional information regarding the czs issue. Feel free to just reply and I could send it to you over email or something. I also used wolf 7.62 and couldn’t even get the gun to cycle my second round once ejecting the first round.
I just had a random theory...Since the gun is over-gassed, causing jams at 14" barrel length, but seems to function well with 11" barrel, other than kicking brass forward (still over-gassed)...Is it possible that they sized the gas ports based on the 8" barrel model, assuming it would work for all? I'm curious how the ejection is on the 8" barrel model.
I'm going to contact engineering explained And ask him to send you guys a white board if you guys are going to be doing videos like this. I like them but that target needs an upgrade. I can't read anything!
I don't think this is because the gun overgassed. It could be that the spring for the ejector plunger is too light. The plunger itself could also be heavy, further slowing down the ejection, not to mention the weight of the case itself. There could be issues in the hole or the plunger with surface finish.
Although I agree that the over gassing would increase the carrier recoil velocity, it's the recoil spring that would increase, or decrease, return velocity.
They should make an upgrade option for a new gas port so its not over gassed and has a suppressor setting. I shoot with a suppressor so I went ahead and drilled a third hole.
Same issue with ejection in my CZ bren 2 MS, ordered the HB Industries gas block and that helped a bit but still having same issues. As of now it’s stored locked up and I’m looking for a more traditional AK
Could the problem be the ammo itself such as the gun was not originally designed for 7.62 and CZ just tacked the caliber option on without enough R&D just like how the original m 16 problem was due to the wrong type of gun powder being used?.
Thanks for this, I'm not trying to be a hater but geezus FancyNut tried to address the same topic... I just can't listen to his psychotic rants about nothing. I really appreciate the direct and practical approach here. Keep up the great work
We've been working on documenting this issue and trying to find the common problem for over a month. We posted early slow motion video to our Patreons some time ago before we finished our assessment. We also conducted the 1000 round test with Jason's gun. So, thank you. We've been working at this for some time since learning about it.
I just pick UP a 14 inch Bren 2MS 7.62x39 on Saturday at a LGS because they had them of sale and I was afraid they may go UP in Price if the Current Election Result are Certified. The Shop had three 14 inch 7.62x39 two that were 2020 and a 2019. I inspected ALL 3 to see which I wanted to take home and I noticed a couple of things: 1. there are 2 type of Mags for the 39 weapons the clear mags and a BLACK MAg with a STEEL Re-Enforcement that increases the LIFE Cycle of the Magazines that was found out from the Machine Gun Version of the 39 guns. 2. The 2019 and Earlier 2020 sample had bigger gas ports but the Later one did NOT and that is the one I GOT! 3. The Tool Kit in the 2019 and Early 2020 were like Old School US Military Cleaning Kit Pouch but the Later one had a nice Molle Clam Shell type of pouch that I had NOT Seen before. I noticed that the MAGAZINE was MOVING ALLOT during the SLOW MOTION Footage : Can the Magazine Movement be Causing the Bolt Carrier Speed to be Reduced and Aiding in the Issues. I plan to take my Bren out toward the end of the Week after I get the Parts that I ordered like a Brace and 10.8 HB Industries Handguard I also ordered the Extended Charging Handle, Safeties and Trigger but I am going to wait till I have at least 300 rounds before I install them in case the weapon has to go to CZ-USA. I saw a BRen 1 at the Shop right next to the pistol that I took home but it was in FDE with a 11 inch barrel in 5.56 it was a little heavy for such a small package but it did feel nice! I am Debating about going back and Getting it but it would DEFINITELY need to be SBR with a ACR folding Telescopic Stock!
Pretty interesting video I would agree that the most prominent issue is over gassing although maybe a redesign of the ejector and extractor might help as well
Gas port is drilled too close to the chamber, resulting in pressure spike and too high of a bolt velocity. Bolt dwell time is too short (underlug), bolt travel is too short. Push ejector only worsens the problem. It's all of the inherent M-16 bolt type problems rolled into one.
with reducing the size of the port comes problems with fouling and debris in the gas port from carbon leading to reliability issues over time. The real answer in my opinion is added mass to the BCG.
I'm a pretty big CZ fan, I really liked the VZ 58 and Shadow 1 pistol. When I was looking for a LRP rifle I decided to pay extra for the CZ 750 and had nothing but troubles, sent it back for warranty, had more issues come up after and decided to sell it and bought a Bergara HMR14, no regret there. My bud also bought the shadow 2 and it jammed like no tomorrow, come on CZ, get it together !
Problem is not overgassing, but missing reciprocating weight in civil version of bolt-carrier. Which little slow down bolt-carrier and for short period "hold" it in place.
It just goes to show you how much work Eugene Stoner had to do working on the gas system on the m16 just to get it right. The other manufacturers have to remember that unlike the factory individuals will run different set ups and ammo than what manufacturers use at the factory.
"Appears" to need 3 thing for being "Over" Reliable. Smaller gas port for reduced Bolt velocities, a larger extractor hook to hold more of the case head & a stronger & or larger ejector/ejector spring. Maybe run a double ejector like some of the "Enhanced" AR-15 bolts.
I just ordered a 14" bren 2 in 7.62x39 because I wasn't aware of these issues with the 7.62x39 version. I can probably cancel the order since it hasn't shipped yet. Hopefully there's no restocking fee. Maybe I'll grab a 5.56 variant instead but I really wanted the 7.62x39 variant.
Thanks to the person that sent Tim their gun. Tim is obviously a very trustworthy dude, but sending your personal firearm to someone you've never met is still something that most wouldn't do. So, if you happen to see this, thank you for making this video happen.
I agree, he is not only a good and trusting person, he did it in the hopes of helping the community as a whole. There is a lot of baseless speculation out there and we wanted to try and cut through some of it. Him sending a known problematic gun helped us convey this info and hopefully in the end it plays some part in helping CZ get the issue resolved.
@@SconedColdSober 😍💓
@@SconedColdSober I wouldn't, too afraid to find the M10X -Z appearing in it.
it's gonna be Biden's gun soon anyway ;)
Yes thanks you stranger !!! 🙏
One more time MAC proves that deserves to have double subscriptions...zero drama zero BS assumptions , only tests and facts. thanks Tim and Jason for another great video.
Thanks brother. We couldn't do it without our supporters.
I have an update on my CZ bren2 7.62x39 right when I got the gun I installed the HB Industries adapter to use AR mags because CZ mags were not available. I had no issues with that set up. Recently I switched back to CZ mags and started to have issues. I saw a video that said that the gas regulator from the 11 inch 5.56 bren 2 was the same as the 11 inch 7.62x39 and that it worked on setting #1. So I ordered a gas regulator from Europe Outdoor and a week and a half later I got it. I installed the new 5.56 gas regulator from the 11 inch bren 2 and the heavy piston spring from HB Industries and my Bren runs very nice now, no issues and the casings fall at 2 and sometimes at 3 o'clock. So problem solved for me. Thanks for making this kind of videos helping us to figure out how to solve this issues. Keep up the great work. Be safe and God bless.
I have/had a 14 inch cz bren. Purchased it almost 2 months ago and have only around 1000 rounds thru it, but I am certain I fixed the issues I was having. My first range trip included atleast 1 if not more FTE every mag. I also experienced a much sharper recoil then most any other gun ive shot In 7.62. I started to believe the hate train on the cz bren but decided to start fixing it myself. My second trip out I tried different ammo. Something I discovered was that it will run supersonics and give me a FTE once a mag but also run subsonics perfectly. This surprised me as most guns I've owned required a separate gas setting to run both. This started to lead me to believe the gun is wayy overgassed and running too fast. It would explain the harsh recoil and the FTE. My first idea was to order a new gas key but cz was down for awhile so I went another route. I chopped my barrel from 14inch to 9inch. This in turn lowered the gas pressure dramatically. The supersonics now run 100% after 600 round test and the subsonics required me to drill the adverse setting a tad bigger to run properly. I fully believe the guns are overgassed, either with incorrect gas port sizes on the barrel or incorrect sizes on the gas key.
This is just a sample size of 1 but I believe I fixed mine
Nice, mine was originally 14” too, and I did the exact same, chopped to 9 and added a cherry bomb for suppressor. Didn’t have any issues at 14, I wanted a 9 to begin with but none were available so I went 14 and chopped
@@alexmacksey4510 also have a cherry bomb on mine 👍 looks sweet
I feel so bad for your barrel, but congrats on fixing your gun
@@s00-x2h why? 9” is what i wanted anyway, and it was chopped and re threaded by a professional with perfect concentricity. To each their own, go do what you want with your money lol
@@alexmacksey4510 buying a 9'' gun and buying a 14'' and then chopping it down to 9'' are two different things man. Anyway yeah just do what you want with your money lol
I am all the time growing more appreciative of what Eugene Stoner created.
Ditto. Until the last few years and I actually researched it, the only stuff I'd heard about the AR 15 was that it was unreliable garbage lol
AR15 is never gonna go away
yes, 7.62x39 ARs run flawlessly :-D
@@worldfamousgi86 It has and almost always was magazine problems with the AR. A lot of bad talk for years from vets in Vietnam who didn't like a plastic gun, and didn't blame poor choices like the lack of a drain port on the mags. When the civilian market took over, it was found that it is leaps and bounds better than the AK.
@@worldfamousgi86 research it again this time use proper Data source and you will know how bureaucracy and incompetent( the idiot who want to cut cost M16 ) can Fuckup good rifle( XM16 ). the more you know about Eugene Stoner, the more you feel sad for him. he is a genius guns designer with the bad luck as possible. he create M16(AR15) and then some idiot fuckup his rifle ( they changed from good quality 25 round steel Magazine to cheap bad quality 20 round aluminum magazine And ammunition using wrong gunpowder ) this gun basically got sabotage by us Ordnance Whether they are intentional or not.
after that he create AR180 and then got f***** by u.s. ordnance again And after that it was copied by Enfield , HK and Howa( license )
Enfield create SA80 It basically AR 180 turn it to bullpup rifle and then some idiot fuckup this rifle by cut cost it( god dammit, the government love to cut cost everything )
HK create G36 They change a lot but the bolt still look identical
Howa create Type 89 It has never been exported outside Japan due to its strict anti-hardware export policy. It is known in JGSDF service as Buddy.
This is an FYI to Everyone that OWNS a 7.62x39 Bren 2MS 14 inch barrel and could also benefit the 11 inch owners. I finally got a chance to take my 14 inch Bren 2MS that now has a PWS FSC Compensator 30 (5/8x24) Muzzle Device to get me to 16.5 inches once it was Silver Soldered in place. I also added the following HBI items the HK 36 Folding Stock, Trigger, Sear, High Load Spring and the 10.8 inch Handguard that was Torqued to 44 IN-LBS instead of 45 IN-LBS.
The Reason I reduced the Torque is that I noticed that when I installed the Handguard the First time the Bolt was NOT Seating and was Staying OUT OF BATTERY so I loosened the Screws and Tried AGAIN the Second TIME I got all 4 screws at 44.8 IN-LBS but the BOLT was NOT AS SMOOTH and it was having ISSUES SEATING Correctly! So I decided to Try Again but this time I would go to 44 IN-LBS and BINGO everything was SMOOTH and the Weapon Feed Snap Caps from the Magazine without Issues! I had to make arrangements to get the Barrel done so I had to take off the barrel and take it to get it done since I do not have the Equipment to Silver Solder the Muzzle Device in Place. When it came back last week I was ready to take it to the Range and I did this WEEKEND.
I used the BLACK Magazines with the Window 5 different Magazines using Tula 123gr Steel Case FMJ and I fired 300rds thru the weapon on Saturday with ZERO Malfunctions! When the Barrel Came back I did run a Otis Ripcord thru the Barrel and I did lube the Bolt carrier. I HAVE A VERY STRONG FEELING that THE MAJORITY OF THE MALFUNCTIONS ARE BEING CREATED BY the VERY LOOSE REAR PLATE that CZ USA put in the BREN to make it a PISTOL since the Operating Rods are Wobbling during the Firing Process and the EXTREMELY WEAK Piston Spring that CZ USA Put in the weapon and IF the Handguard Screws were Over-Torqued that would make account for many of the MALFUNCTIONS!
CZ needs to get hot on this. It is unacceptable that an expensive military design like this to have this level of problems.
It looks like the additional dwell time in the 14” is only compounding the problem. Hopefully CZ will issue all owners new gas regulators, and perhaps updates to the bolt and carriers
This is definitely a severe oversight by CZ. How do you overgass a gun so much, even steel case has issues. Probably the reason why Bren lost military trials to Kalashikhov concern in Pakistan and others.
@Equine Appraising their is hundreds like this. It is a cz problem. They are replacing with brand new firearms instead of fixing.
@Equine Appraising Leftism ruins everything it touches. This is leftism in action.
I have two cz pistols that havent malfunctioned in 5-10k rounds of 9mm....their cz75s seem great imo
my 11 inch x39 has been flawless
I would send Tim anything for testing. The dude is beyond reproach. Having said that...big thanks to the person who sent this malfunctioning gun in so that he can help figure it out.
As an engineer your fault investigation methodology in this video is fantastic, really enjoyed this video.
great info
Thanks brother. I'll see you here in a couple of days!
@@Militaryarmschannel the case deflector angle is to steep as well
Hey aren't you supposed to be banned or is that on a different technocratic organization
@@dusuldorf24 I hear that got reversed.
@@dusuldorf24 who was banned ?
Good day Tim, my older AR also suffered from the radical forward ejection your CZ seems to have. I wound up altering the brass deflector angle rearward via a hard rubber wedge JB welded to the face of the factory one. I experimented with angles and rubber compound before the permanent JB adhesion and found a small, five degree wedge of truck tire tread resolved the issue. The rubber wedge altered both the angle and distance of the extracted brass, both for the better, and I shot the heck out of that rifle for many years with no more problems.
Well done video, as always, and I hope CZ acknowledges the problem and addresses it. Good luck sir!
Your AR was/is still way over gassed. Changing the angle of the brass deflector doesn’t solve the over gassing problem. Over gassed guns increase wear on all moving parts and should be corrected.
@@sackychin6267 Yep, I learned about that aspect as I became more familiar with AR’s. I was in my teens (early 80’s) and still green with that platform. The rifle is no longer with me but I’d sure like to see it again to finally remedy the issue correctly. 👍🏼
I know this was 2 years ago, but has CZ corrected the problem since then? MAC mentions there's two gas systems- a standard system used in 14"-16" barrel models, and a distinct system used exclusively in the 11" models. My first thought was, "Did the 11" gas keys end up getting used in the other models by accident?".. I would assume with shorter barrel length, there's less gas pressure to manage in the 11" models, and I'd assume that means the key ports would be larger to allow more gas flow to assist the bolt carrier (Compared to the 14/16" which probably has smaller ports.) Just curious if maybe somewhere along the assembly line 11" gas keys were getting mixed into the 14/16" gas systems, which could be adding to the already overly gassed systems.
Sounds like Copper custom needs to partner with a machine shop and build a gas plug with the right sized ports.
Wow. I have the Bren 2 Carbine in 5.56. No malfunctions what so ever. However after shooting at an indoor range I was about to clean the brass from the floor and noticed I had nothing to clean. Your explanation about the shell casings being ejected at the 2 o'clock position makes sense, then I actually saw it happening. Casings were flying into the range.
This man doing work for himself but also FOR the Bren company. Faster, too. What thankless work
i havent watched the whole video yet but wanted to let ppl know that removing the deflector helped mine.
it used to stove pipe a couple times a mag,
hasnt stovepiped sonce i removed it about 200 rounds ago.
a solution that might help ppl that dont want to drill a hole in the gas port. (fyi i will still probably do that at somepoint, but this is an easier fix for the time being)
thats what I was thinking watching this
Some suggestions to try:
Stronger EJECTOR spring. This would help the case have a more rear aspect on the shell deflector. Also, non permanent.
Removal / Replacement of the shell deflector. 7.62 is a little butt-heavy. It seeks that in these malfunctions the casing IS making it's way out, and then is inertially stopped by the deflector.
Stronger recoil spring. This would slow the bolt velocity down a tad allowing the round to flip out a touch sooner. Would also likely iron out the recoil impulse a tad.
What amazes me is that even overgassed, it does not seem to be kicking out brass with a lot of "authority." My main focuses would be ejector plunger spring (I bet they used springs sized for 5.56 brass weight) and the deflector being more AR like.
Is the fire ball coming from the gas port normal? I noticed in the last shots fired at the end of the video.
You'll see that in a number of firearms. You'll see it in the PE57 video too.
In short stroke piston guns usually yes. it's just excess gas being expelled.
Mine flames hard, especially now that I have the 10.8 HB handguard that completely encloses the port and shoots massive flames through all the mlok slots. Do not enjoy shooting this thing much now.
Oh man, you can really see it with an AUG, and you'll feel it too if your grip is too high.
@@FuzedBox i just shot a FA Aug this weekend and the gas plug was shooting fire the whole time 😅
Hb industries is offering gas port hole drilling and stronger piston springs for all pistol sizes. It's also at a pretty good price. $60 to drill a suppressor setting in the 3rd position and a stronger spring is included. I bought a spring and I'm gonna test it tomorrow.
Awesome video Tim, well done!
The no spare parts thing is an instant deal breaker.
Should be noted don’t drill the hole unless you want to void your CZ warranty.
Will they fix it in the first place though this problem has been known for months
You can't just buy a spare plug to drill the (oh gawd) third hole?
@@jonathansmith7306 lmao, no cz doesn't have any spares Appearantly
@@kellernine279 Nothing inspires consumer confidence like "CZ doesn't have spare parts available".
Just weld hole if was wrong size and screw warranty.
My Daewoo never had a problem. It loved steel case too.
A few were imported before the rifle ban
@@jason200912 Robinson xcr is basically a modern Daewoo k2
@@supremekizzle too different.
@@jason200912 they're pretty damn similar. Look at the BCG and takedown button on the back incorporated into the recoil assembly.
Someone give this team a medal 🥇
I posted the comment about ejection problems on my 14” Bren 2 after I put 2” muzzle extension on it. It sounds like switching to suppressor settings improved the situation. I just put flawlessly a 50 rounds through it. Keeping my fingers crossed for the best :)
I think youre spot on the conclusion. If both BCG and smaller port reduced the problem, makes me think they have both overgas problems and mayb a manufacturing defect with ejectors/extractor/bcg.
Investigative journalism as it should be. Great info, thanks for doing the testing on this.
Wow, that is a thorough analysis.... really curious if there's going to be some conclusion on CZ side regarding this problem. If swapping gas plug is a solution that would be great... simple fix :) let's see
Took the new 14" CZ sent me out yesterday. Ran 120 rounds through it with no problems thus far. Still feels over gassed, so I am skeptical that it won't start having FTE issues. Also ran 180 rounds through my new PSAK GF4. Love the PSA.
I'm wondering if the 14" barrel is too long for the gas settings? Much longer dwell time than the 8" and 11" versions, which might be causing the over-gas issues.
Looks a lot like my Tavor running a can with 5.56 pressure ammo. The overgassed BCG impacts the buffer hard enough to bounce which causes stovepipes. I've gone to the 25%+ spring from Shooting Sight which helps greatly even though it is still not 100%.
2:28 First red flag for overgassing is a tendancy for the firearms performance to improve with use. Slight carbon build up reducing the available gas into the system with a positive effect tells you all you need for preliminary diagnosis.
Huh? Doesn't use open up the gas post as erosion takes place?
@ytuploads9742 no, use tends to clog things up with unburned propellant and carbon. That's why we clean our guns. Erosion only occurs after a long time. Corrosive ammo is rare these days, depending on the country of origin. The hard facing and heat treatment of working firearm components will take years to wear, unless it is a poor quality part.
This was so informative I learned so much not just about the bren 2 but firearms in general
I hope they get this fixed I'm highly interested in this weapon system
mine has been flawless, as well as a buddies
Overgassed issues can often be overcome by using a stronger spring. DWELL TIME is obviously too low. Similar things occur in tuning an AR. It is a 3 legged stool to balance: Gas, Mass, and Spring. Many top tier manufacturers now use Sprinco springs , which are available in many different strengths, to get the best match for reliability.
Had the same issue with my Saiga 223. using a stronger recoil spring fixed it for me
Well this explains why you can't find a new Bren 2 Ms in 7.62x39. Thanks for the information. I'll be taking mine to my gunsmith ASAP.
Tim did you try firing either weapon using the adverse gas setting? If the weapon is indeed over gassed we would expect these types of stovepipe failures to increase . Correct?
I would expect that result.
I also don't see where over gassing would cause some of the complaints like bolt face damage.
Mine is currently at CZ and they must have enough guns now as they are now offering refunds and have also "ordered parts". It's hard really getting any information from them about an ETA as their customer service is garbage.
Did you try changing the angle of the brass deflector to stop it from bouncing to the 1 o'clock.
Is this issue is fixed today by CZ? after 3 years any update please ;)
Excellent video MAC. Don't even own a Bren but found this captivating.
What did CZ take away from this video? That Jason violated his warranty ;)
I guess you might as well get another regulator (once available), swap 'em and bang, warranty is back :)
Thanks for the work Tim. Been follow the forum thread since almost the beginning and hate that it's turned from excited enthusiasm of a new platform to gloom and doom and woe is me. I understand their frustration but man I think it's been over blown. Can't wait for CZ to get their stuff together and get these things fixed so we can go back to discovering this awesome new gun. Aftermarket was quickly growing for the Bren 2 and I feel like once these complaints started popping up that progress has more or less halted. Crazy how the internet can make a few seem like a lot.
Anyone heading over to the forum just make sure to note the names of the users having issues. If you don't it'll seem like hundreds are having issues but in fact it's more like a dozen. They are just very vocal.
I would disagree with that statement. Between the various forums, Reddit, UA-cam, and various FB groups, the problems with the 7.62x39 do indeed appear to be widespread.
With these guns being so new and ammo in short supply right now, it’s just taking longer than usual for the problems to materialize. More reports from new owners are showing up everyday on these various sites, so the problem does appear to be systemic on these particular models.
@@neptunetriton I know that a few of the guys in the ARFcom forum are the same people in the facebook and reddit threads. They've stated it in some of their post which again make me believe it is getting overblown. The same people in multiple places shouting their frustration make it seem more wide spread. Now to be clear I am not saying the issue does not exist just saying that it is being made out to be something much worse than it actually is which can if not already has effected the platform in a negative way on the civilian market.
Thankfully the 5.56 version does not have these issues. I’ve put roughly 1200 rounds through mine and the only malfunction I had was caused by a standard US military surplus magazine. The gun loves Pmags I’ve learned
It almost looks like the angle/size of the brass deflector is sending them right back into the action. Like as if it's too steep an angle given the ejection force of the over gassed gun.
Thank you Tim and Jason for your help!
Shot my 5.56 11" model over the weekend for the first time and had many cyclic issues with 5.56 and various .223 loads. Mainly FTE and some FTF.
I have a cz Bren 2 ms as well with a 14” barrel 7.62. Legit would not feed a second round into the chamber after I would fire the first round. Not sure if this is the same issue you are discussing but clearly mine was just much much worse considering it wouldn’t even cycle a second round. I have a couple videos as well I could send you in case you wanted to see what I was able to capture during the video. If you do want this for some additional information regarding the czs issue. Feel free to just reply and I could send it to you over email or something. I also used wolf 7.62 and couldn’t even get the gun to cycle my second round once ejecting the first round.
Mine did it today I tried all setting and still couldn't get it to function right.
Dr Mac comes with a treatment plan!
Mac to reduce excessive gas pressure, there are 2 options either a smaller gas port or heavier spring .
Nothing like starting Mondy with some coffee and a new MAC video
Excellent video Mac. Very informative. I bought a "14 5.56 and is been a hoot. I hope CZ can come up with a quick fix.
Hoping CZ fixes this. I don’t have one and don’t plan to get one, but I like seeing there being more options on the market.
Is there any chance the 9” needs the bigger port sizes to run reliably, and they just went with the lowest common denominator?
Does the shell deflector come off? I would like to see what it does without. Would a different angle on the deflector help?
Glad I bought a $600 Riley Defense 7.26x39 AK last year. It just keeps on working.
The geometry on the deflector is to steep as well
I just had a random theory...Since the gun is over-gassed, causing jams at 14" barrel length, but seems to function well with 11" barrel, other than kicking brass forward (still over-gassed)...Is it possible that they sized the gas ports based on the 8" barrel model, assuming it would work for all? I'm curious how the ejection is on the 8" barrel model.
The more guns returned to CZ the more opportunity they have to diagnose and solve the problem(s).
Slow motion made it easy yo see the problem. Thanks. Well done,. Best video yet.
I'm going to contact engineering explained And ask him to send you guys a white board if you guys are going to be doing videos like this. I like them but that target needs an upgrade. I can't read anything!
Ah yes, the classic story. "if we give it more gas it's more reliable right?"
Mr. Mercury
Perhaps making the gun dirty will make it work better
maybe they like Jeremy Clarkson huh? GAS GAS GAS.... POWAAAA
@@Genesis23OPB guys in the Czech Rep made a review.... they specifically claim they use the smaller hole.... ua-cam.com/video/ftmb_BjUbPc/v-deo.html
@@Genesis23OPB Yeah I could see that. Idk why they think that though they know the common ammo available in the U.S.
I don't think this is because the gun overgassed. It could be that the spring for the ejector plunger is too light. The plunger itself could also be heavy, further slowing down the ejection, not to mention the weight of the case itself. There could be issues in the hole or the plunger with surface finish.
Although I agree that the over gassing would increase the carrier recoil velocity, it's the recoil spring that would increase, or decrease, return velocity.
They should make an upgrade option for a new gas port so its not over gassed and has a suppressor setting. I shoot with a suppressor so I went ahead and drilled a third hole.
Can you do a review on the CZ Bren 2 MS Rifle version in 7.62x39?
"I'm not an engineer....but I play one on UA-cam." - Tim, Military Arms Channel. hahaha
Same issue with ejection in my CZ bren 2 MS, ordered the HB Industries gas block and that helped a bit but still having same issues. As of now it’s stored locked up and I’m looking for a more traditional AK
Could the problem be the ammo itself such as the gun was not originally designed for 7.62 and CZ just tacked the caliber option on without enough R&D just like how the original m 16 problem was due to the wrong type of gun powder being used?.
Thanks for this, I'm not trying to be a hater but geezus FancyNut tried to address the same topic... I just can't listen to his psychotic rants about nothing. I really appreciate the direct and practical approach here. Keep up the great work
We've been working on documenting this issue and trying to find the common problem for over a month. We posted early slow motion video to our Patreons some time ago before we finished our assessment. We also conducted the 1000 round test with Jason's gun. So, thank you. We've been working at this for some time since learning about it.
I just pick UP a 14 inch Bren 2MS 7.62x39 on Saturday at a LGS because they had them of sale and I was afraid they may go UP in Price if the Current Election Result are Certified. The Shop had three 14 inch 7.62x39 two that were 2020 and a 2019. I inspected ALL 3 to see which I wanted to take home and I noticed a couple of things:
1. there are 2 type of Mags for the 39 weapons the clear mags and a BLACK MAg with a STEEL Re-Enforcement that increases the LIFE Cycle of the Magazines that was found out from the Machine Gun Version of the 39 guns.
2. The 2019 and Earlier 2020 sample had bigger gas ports but the Later one did NOT and that is the one I GOT!
3. The Tool Kit in the 2019 and Early 2020 were like Old School US Military Cleaning Kit Pouch but the Later one had a nice Molle Clam Shell type of pouch that I had NOT Seen before.
I noticed that the MAGAZINE was MOVING ALLOT during the SLOW MOTION Footage : Can the Magazine Movement be Causing the Bolt Carrier Speed to be Reduced and Aiding in the Issues. I plan to take my Bren out toward the end of the Week after I get the Parts that I ordered like a Brace and 10.8 HB Industries Handguard I also ordered the Extended Charging Handle, Safeties and Trigger but I am going to wait till I have at least 300 rounds before I install them in case the weapon has to go to CZ-USA. I saw a BRen 1 at the Shop right next to the pistol that I took home but it was in FDE with a 11 inch barrel in 5.56 it was a little heavy for such a small package but it did feel nice! I am Debating about going back and Getting it but it would DEFINITELY need to be SBR with a ACR folding Telescopic Stock!
Sent mine in twice. Finally got a new gun and still have the same issues. Cz has been no help unfortunately.
The only problems ive experienced with my x39 bren have been magazine related feed issues. No problems extracting at all. Knock on wood.
Happy Birthday MAC
Tim, I don't think you qualify as "stranger" in the US gun world..:).
This guy already shaken gun world because his AR 15 not DI video
Pretty interesting video I would agree that the most prominent issue is over gassing although maybe a redesign of the ejector and extractor might help as well
I would suspect that the 14" barreled version has increased the dwell time thus making the issue worse when compared to Jason's SBR.
What about that wobbly butt stock adapter and then the lower opening up??? Not real good for a $1800 firearm
@@tm1182 yep haha
Everyone shits on the scar 16 but it's a great rifle in my experience. Sometimes you don't feel like shooting an AR.
Reminds me of the Sig 556. The 7.62x39 version was notorious for problems
So sad. Wrapped up $3600 in my 11" and sold it for $2k because it would stove pipe and double feed at least twice every range day.
Gas port is drilled too close to the chamber, resulting in pressure spike and too high of a bolt velocity. Bolt dwell time is too short (underlug), bolt travel is too short. Push ejector only worsens the problem.
It's all of the inherent M-16 bolt type problems rolled into one.
So it was specifically the 14in version having issues?
with reducing the size of the port comes problems with fouling and debris in the gas port from carbon leading to reliability issues over time. The real answer in my opinion is added mass to the BCG.
I'm a pretty big CZ fan, I really liked the VZ 58 and Shadow 1 pistol. When I was looking for a LRP rifle I decided to pay extra for the CZ 750 and had nothing but troubles, sent it back for warranty, had more issues come up after and decided to sell it and bought a Bergara HMR14, no regret there. My bud also bought the shadow 2 and it jammed like no tomorrow, come on CZ, get it together !
Is that magazine supposed to be doing all that dancing in the mag well?
Is the angle of the deflector wrong?
Problem is not overgassing, but missing reciprocating weight in civil version of bolt-carrier. Which little slow down bolt-carrier and for short period "hold" it in place.
It just goes to show you how much work Eugene Stoner had to do working on the gas system on the m16 just to get it right. The other manufacturers have to remember that unlike the factory individuals will run different set ups and ammo than what manufacturers use at the factory.
Has CZ said anything about releasing the Bren2 in 308? That’s the one I’ve been waiting for!
Can we get a size for that smaller port? Why no mention of exact drill size?
"Appears" to need 3 thing for being "Over" Reliable. Smaller gas port for reduced Bolt velocities, a larger extractor hook to hold more of the case head & a stronger & or larger ejector/ejector spring. Maybe run a double ejector like some of the "Enhanced" AR-15 bolts.
I wonder if part of it might be the shell deflector is too close to 90 degrees and in part be contributing to throwing the case forward?
Will ak magazines fit in this...? Can you out a video on multi mag capability...
I have shot 1500 rounds with my Bren 2Ms without a single malfunction.
what barrel length?
5.56 or 7.62?
I have a little bit of trouble with my math. 100% viewer supported, yet also supported by BDU?
BDU also views the vids. They're that good.
Great info. I have a x39 with 9’ barrel and I have yet too have any issues, but I will report if it occurs
My 11.5 7.62x39 is at CZ for this issue, and keyholing
sucks
my 11 in has been flawless
@@brighthought11 It's still at CZUSA.... it's been since October 6 2020
I’d like to add that my x39 gun hasn’t had any issues. It has about 2000 rounds through it to date!
I just ordered a 14" bren 2 in 7.62x39 because I wasn't aware of these issues with the 7.62x39 version. I can probably cancel the order since it hasn't shipped yet. Hopefully there's no restocking fee. Maybe I'll grab a 5.56 variant instead but I really wanted the 7.62x39 variant.