257 Roberts Project: 2nd Range Trip and Bore Cleaning
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- I made it back to the range for the 2nd range trip and all I can say is we have our work cut out for us. The accuracy was better still not there so today I examine the bore and compare it to the 7x57. The results were interesting! And we do a thorough cleaning and go over all of the details for bore cleaning.
3 Levels of Gun Cleaning: • The 3 Levels Of Gun Cl...
Tom, you deserve 10x+ the subs that you have. You really do a professional job at producing good videos. I am working on getting a new to me 1918 build date Remington Model 14 ready for whitetail season in Nebraska. Making my 30 Rem cases on the lathe from 30-30 brass and trying my powder coated lead. Probably going to have to go jacketed until.I fix my accuracy issues with the lead.
Thank you very much for that! And congrats on the model14. I've talked before about how today we know electronics but in the past they mechanical things and I don't know of a better example of that than the model 14. That spiral tube magazine design is absolutely brilliant! And I think John Pederson was also pretty brilliant himself and the perfect example of someone who knew mechanical things. And it sounds like you're pretty sharp yourself on mechanical things! Good luck on that project.
Hello from the UK. Really enjoying your channel. Useful information presented in a quiet way which is a nice change from the shouting a lot of people indulge in! Looking forward to the next episode in this project.
Thanks Ben, and I think you will enjoy the next episode? I've been back to the range and we're making progress.
Hello Tom, I feel good about your next range trip. Thanks for the cliff-hanger my friend, lol.
God bless
Thanks Mike, and your feelings are proving to be right because I just went to the range and we made some progress!
Tom is the grown-up version of Spanky from little rascals LOL
LOL
This is the most interesting series! I absolutely love it!
Thanks Roger, but I have to say I wasn't planning on it being quite so interesting! LOL
I can't wait for the results... Great video
Check back Sunday and I think you'll like the results Bobby!
Just found this video on my feed and extremely impressed! Subscribed
I'm glad you liked it Kyle!
Great channel. I just stumbled across it tonight. Looking forward to you finding a solution as I have the exact same problem with my XTR 257 Rob. Cheers from SC.
Thanks Clasvi!
Have started using Wipe-Out foam bore cleaner on all my rifles. Does a great job removing both copper and powder fouling. Works well on carbon fouling also. Don’t use brushes now, just the foam cleaner.
Vic, I just have a hard time with change, LOL. I have a lot of years of experience with JB and it's just tough for me to change up just because of the confidence I have in it and the results I've had over the past 25 plus years of using it. But I have no doubt that there are better options out there now.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving
Obviously what you are doing works for you. If you’re happy with it, keep at it. Good luck on getting it shooting. Your groups look like mine before I had mine bedded. Wishing you success. Don’t give up on it. It will shoot!
Excellent video series, Tom! One more thing to check would be making sure a .257 projectile will fit into the neck of a fired case to rule out thick necks as an issue. Keep up the good work!
Thanks Jorgen for the compliment on the series and the tip on the brass. It's been so long since I've checked a fired case that I forgot all about that one!
Thanks I forgot about this too.
Very interesting stuff as always.
Looking forward to the next range session 👍
Thanks Drew 👍
Some great content Tom! My .257 Roberts is a Browning A-Bolt and it hasn't ever liked a bullet heavier than 100 grains. The best bullet grouping was with a 85 grain ballistic tip by Combined Technologies. Sub MOA with that lighter bullet. It has been deadly on some nice bucks over the years. I'm going to try some things suggested in your video and see if I can get some heavier bullets to group. Thanks for sharing and God Bless.
I'm glad you enjoyed it Stephen and at some point I'm going to make myself try some really light bullets. I had decent results with 100gr Speer Hotcores in the rifle in the past but they weren't great. About 1.5".
Hey, Gavin from Gavintube talks about Gordy Gritter accuracy check list and Nathan Foster has a book about accurizing your hunting rifle. If you ain't doing what these two guys say,, a person should probably reconsider what they are doing...
But none the less, enjoy your video for sure.
Thanks James!
I think this will do it. I've never seen one that fouled before, but that isn't saying much as I am just basing it on a few bores I've seen with a bore scope. Makes me wonder what some of mine look like. Thanks for sharing and looking forward to the next one.
FN didn't build many of these featherweight 257 Roberts rifles , just a limited run .So maybe like me your Roberts was bought used .Mine didn't group much better . I originally suspected it was the rate of twist. Using a bullet stability calculator, the hornady superformance 117 grn were shown to be marginal with a 1-10 twist and left me scratching my head .Watching you work through the process of getting yours to shoot is making me expand my thinking as to what's actually going on .
Stuart I was corresponding with another gentleman earlier and he has the same 257 Roberts also. He said he went through 500 rounds load testing different 100gr bullets and was just about ready to get rid of his but then his finally started shooting after finding a decent load and playing with the seating depth. He said he absolutely loves that rifle now and wouldn't take anything for it.
From what I'm seeing and comments like his and yours I'm thinking these rifles take a lot of rounds to get them broken in and they are very load sensitive? But I am making progress on mine and I just went to the range after this cleaning and that 2.66" group, that was 4.3" on the first range trip, shot a 1.8" group with no fouling and 1.3" after I got some fouling back in the barrel. So it seems I'm making progress with this one but it has been a bear! But hopefully it keeps going in the right direction and hopefully this will help you out as well.
Agree with you re the twist. my Remington 722 deluxe in .257 Roberts just hates the 117 SST yet groups ok with 120 Partitions , which don't have such a long bearing surface. What it does like is 100 grn TTSX at just over 3000 fps. This is an accurate devastating killer on all sizes of deer. it regularly shoots 1/2 inch groups as long as the barrel is on the clean side of what a barrel should be . it is always sighted in for the first shot to be bang on target (as all rifles should be ) and if I don't get the deer within two shots the animal gets a reprieve. Having said that ,I have only had to fire two shots at a deer once and that first shot was a bad shot from me not the Roberts. Love my Roberts to bits. For a cheap but accurate option for small deer like Fallow , I use a 100 grain Hornady Inter Lock or a Speer 87 grn Hot core.
I learned a lot from this video thanks.
I'm glad to know rhat Mark, and I think you'll enjoy this Sunday's video and the results of the cleaning?
Judging by your velocities it would seem that your pressures are very low. Very few rifles shoot accurately with low pressure loads due to inconsistent ignition.
You are absolutely correct on those velocities being low! I used the Sierra load data for these loads and to say they were conservative with their load data would be an understatement. I went up to the max charge they had listed and started at 5% below max and went up in 1% increments. But I have noticed a lot of variation in pressure limits in load data from the various manufactures. I guess some list their data for the original 257 Roberts pressure limit and others for the so called +p?
My grandfather’s 257 seems to shoot everything well, mine likes it heavier the better
I have an older 25 wssm that I used the Tubbs bullets on and it brought it around. My model 70 2018 270 featherweight high grade took alot of shooting to break it in. Well over 100 rounds. Now it's a shooter. In my experience the new Winchester's take alot of break in rounds
sweet tune. Thank you. You gave me hope.
Hello Tom excellent video series. I am a 25caliber fan I’ve owned 4 still own 2 of those. Three where in 25/06 one was a bob. Neither of the four would shoot under an inch with 117-120 grain bullets. If I dropped to 110 grain the bob and two of the 25/06s where tack drivers. I got talked out of the bob by a nephew still regretting that decision. But the two 25/06s are deer slaying machines. Keep trying loads you’ll find that sweet spot half the fun is the solving the mystery.
Thanks Cousinfuzzy, and I don't know if I'm going to get it under 1in but I was getting close on the last range trip after this cleaning.
The copper is still in a molten form the first portion of the barrel from all the heat and pressure as the gasses cool and pressure became less the copper is deposited about that half way point there is always carbon the first part and and copper the second half. Long range shooters of Utah did a video with ed shillen and he explains all this in that video I’d check it out. And a barrel break in is in my eyes is an absolute must it for sure reduces the fouling and can still be done at this point in the rifles life it won’t be quite as effective but I would deffinetly give it a go you won’t be out anything but some bullets and some time. Then again some guns just foul more than others but since I started breaking in all my new rifles iv have noticed considerable less fouling and a lot easier to clean those bores
I had the exact same problem with mine. I never did get it to shoot well until I re-barrelled. Hopefully you have better luck.
I've had hand lapped barrels still take near 100 rounds through them before the fouling settles down.
I'm hearing from quite a few people that have had similar experiences with theirs, but I seem to be making progress on this one? I just went to the range and the groups for that starting load are consistently getting smaller.
Good job, and its nice to see most of the fowling cleaned out. They say the proof is in the pudding so looking fwd to seeing how it shoots...but I have to tell ya, I think that barrel had a few more rounds through it than you were told....or maybe it was never broken in? Enjoyed the video and looking fwd to the next video...God Bless
Even with “break in” I’ve never seen more than a 0.5 inch improvement. There is something else off. I would put a no
Go and go gauge in it.
@@drdes9609 I hadn't thought of that. My Featherweight 7X57 seems a little short throated....but it chambers factory stuff okay. Just shot the best group of handloads seated a little deeper, like right at the top of the cannelure instead of at or below it. My 25-06...I took care of that when I installed the barrel.
@@cbsbass4142 unless the gun is a mossberg almost every factor rifle will shoot 1 moa with most loads. Mossberg patriot they say 2 moa.
@@drdes9609 I here you on the Mossberg. I have a 270 in a 4X4 and am struggling with it. 2MOA sounds about right so far.
You and GunBlue 490 should get together and pick each others' brains; he also loves the .257 Roberts.
True but, GunBlue has a tack driver right out of the box. His rifle was produced by the current (FN) ownership Winchester company. Tom & I own "stepbrothers" made in early to mid 80's.
Actually Clasvi this one is a 2012 made at the FN plant. My other one that I compared it to is the "Stepbrother to yours". I got this one to see how it compared to the XTR.
Ken I think it would be just me picking his brain? LOL But I would love to be able to do that. He's been at this a lot longer than myself and I would love to hear his thoughts on some of the deeper mysteries of accuracy!
Keep at it.
I figured it would group about anything you put in it, but they're all different
J, I figured the same thing! I was really surprised at how temperamental this rifle has been. But I've already been to the range since this cleaning and we are making progress. Sill not sub MOA but close.
Try Bore Tech copper remover….. it is absolutely excellent in removing copper with just a nylon brush…….. most of the time I do not even use a brush just a cloth batch………..
I have a Ruger bolt action in .257 Roberts. It is very picky about handloads only shooting the Sierra 117gn Gameking and the Nosler 115gn Partition well, over Max charges of either Hodgens or IMR 4350. I had one of the Winchester featherweights like yours, years ago. It shot factory, Winchester 117gn silvertips into clover leafs. I'm still sorry I sold it.
Kjatexas, you have no idea how much I would like to find some 25 cal Winchester bullets. I've always heard that Winchester bullets tend to shoot great in Winchester rifles and I would love to try that with this one.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Looking forward to your next trip to the range with this rifle.
Wow. I believe I should invest in a bore scope. I expect that the good news is that fouling could certainly cause some accuracy problems. Probably been building up since the first shots were fired in it. Stay on top of the fouling and my guess is it should improve.
I think you're right on that fouling and it's going to be interesting to see what it does after firing some rounds through it?
After you get that copper out. You might consider fire lapping. The down side to fire lapping is it wears down the throat of the barrel the most. I have had accuracy improvements and far less copper fowling.
Standard bore lapping could be better but never found a gunsmith in my area that could lap gun barrels.
Try Rem Clean or JB bore paste if nothing else. I have even used Brasso.
Keep an eye out on your polishing process with your bore scope
Jay I have been thinking along similar lines. I was thinking of maybe trying my break in procedure on this barrel with cleaned down to steel but that might not be necessary? I went to the range the cleaning did improve my results. I'm just going to have to watch it now and see how long it takes the fouling to come back?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving if the fowling comes back as bad as it was . I would do some fire lapping with no more than about six bullets. I would use a grit of 600 or less. That will make your bore smooth enough.
If you are not familiar with the fire lapping procedure, I'm sure you can Google it up. It is not much to it . I bought a fire lapping kit from a company called NECO don't know if they are still around. Just keep polishing with JB . It is a clay base compound not going to hurt the barrel. I have even sent a few barreled actions off to be Cryrogenic stress relieved were the steel is frozen to -300 degrees and slowly heated back up. I did not notice any difference in accuracy. To be honest I got the best accuracy improvements by sending a barreled action of to an accuracy gun smithing to have a Hart barrel installed. Keep working at it . Sometimes you can turn a sows ear into a purse. It takes patients. It is embarrassing to sell a rifle to a friend at a real cheap price because you could not get it to shoot and then he improved the accuracy of it.
Well having a 257 myself I'm looking forward to the next range day....mine never shot the 120 grain. Might check out Erik Cortina on barrel cleaning!
I have a 257 rob XTR also. Same problem. Cant wait to see the solution.
Awesome
Thanks Bob
My experiance/ $.02... based on 25+ years of shooting/ working on rifles
A good cleaning should help, BUT it will (most likely) need a dozen or so shots to "recondition" the bore from "squeakly clean".
Your borescope should allow you to examine the crown pretty well, and decide if it's OK or want to have it recut.
The "dollar bill test" does NOT give enough clearance for the barrel especially on a wooden stock, 3 bills (or a business card) is much better. I hate to even suggest this, but maybe try an aftermaket / different/ synthtic stock, just to see?
Also, you changed scopes but left the old bases on.. I'd pull and reattach them.. You just don't know who has been there before you ;)
I know you want to shoot heavier bullets but it would be prudent to try lighter bullets, just to see. Also, the faster you push the heavy bullets, the faster the effective twist (higher RPM) will be, so load up to pressure signs, then back off a bit ;)
If nothing / the things I've listed, doesn't fix it, I'd be looking into a Tubbs Bore Lapping Kit (abrasive coated bullets).
Finally, you said the action was already bedded when you got it, but by who and how well? Does it have Pillars? if not, adding them might be a good idea, it always is with wood IMO. Allows you to tighten action screws consistantly (and with more force).
I've been down this road before, many times.. can be frustrating, but is always fun :) Back when I bought and sold used guns almost weekly, once I made them shoot good, they got sold... LOL
Mike you are spot on with every single thing you said there! I just went to the range and shot it with the squeaky clean bore with the same starting load I've been using and it was better. I then did some load testing with mixed results and then I fired that same starting load again after firing 20 rounds on load testing because I was expecting it to improve just like you and it was even better. I also changed the bases and rings after the cleaning. I never mentioned it in the upcoming video because the bases were tight that were on there but I went ahead and changed them anyway. Crown looked great. I tried 100gr bullets in the last video just to see and it was still ugly. And the action was bedded at the factory and I'm going to leave that alone for now since everything is going in the right direction but a couple of different things had crossed my mind like trying a different stock just to see. Great suggestions and it sounds like we've both gone down that same rocky road before! LOL
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Makes me want to go shopping for a new/ used rifle.. just for fun! LOL I have 2 I put together last year, still haven't had time for proper testing... it's been 90-100+ here in Nebraska lately, and I can't see wasting ammo/ componants "testing" in that heat... I just don't think it will be the same results vs hunting in 20-50 degree temps come Novemmber- January :)
You may wish to use Sweets 7.62 solvent for cleaning copper fouling in the future. No where near as messy and probably much more effective, the Hoppe's product may be good for powder fouling but not at all effective for copper IMHO.
Mark I'll explain my philosophy on cleaning in the next video, but Hoppes normally takes care of what I need as far as copper. And all I normally try to do is just remove a little bit. And I normally only use JB for breaking in a barrel and I think it does a better job for that because it is a polish. And after a break in I've never needed anything else except for on a rare occasion like with this barrel. But I have no doubt there are better alternatives out there now for removing copper, and Sweets would be my first choice for an alternative. Thanks for confirming its a great product.
Seemed to favor the 117 gr Bullets a little better. I'm going to load up some 120 gr for the .25-06, some 117 Spitzer Boat tails, the remaining 100gr Ballistic tips, and some 100 gr Hornady spire point Interlocks. I want to see what it does with 120 grainers though. I should have gotten a bottle of H1000. Never tried that but the Speer data gives what looks like a good load with H4831sc I may try since I already have it. I hope the cleaning helps.
Oops Sorry. Those are 115 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips I have, not 100 gr. All the better. I think they shot good with the 22 in barrel, so they'll be new for the 24 in.
CBSBASS I went to the range Friday morning. I'm still editing and it will be Sunday before I get the video posted but the results were pretty interesting. The starting 120gr load here that was 4.3" on the first trip and 2.66" on this trip measured 1.8" after the cleaning and 1.35" after I fired 20 rounds doing some load testing. I had another group with the 120gr Speers that measured 1.4" with Ramshot Hunter powder and Federal Primers and the last 3 shots in that 4 shot group measured under .5". So I'm going to do a ladder test with that powder. I tried 117gr Game Kings with R Hunter and got similar results as today. I tried the 120gr Speers with Federal primers and got a 3plus inch group so it's definitely primer sensitive. I also tried 117gr SST's. One group with H4831 and 1 group with R Hunter and both groups measured just under 2". This rifle is starting to shoot but it's extremely load sensitive. I don't know if that's a 25 cal thing or just this rifle but that's what I'm seeing so far.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving GREAT NEWS on the better groups! I was looking at the Shaw Semi customs based on Savage actions, (as a possibility for a .257 Roberts) and you can pretty much pick barrel length & style, wood stocks, Timney vs Savage accutrigger, etc, BUT, all .257s at 1:10 twist, which was kind of a bummer. Would have to get a custom twist from a different source. Not sure why they stick to that twist rate for 257 cal. I think the 2506 ought to stabilize these 120s, but the groups have been larger with them on the 2506 too. Got a Leupold 4X12X50 on here and the Timney at a constant 2lbs, so I'll be working on that for the 25. 7X57 I just seated the factory bullets a tad deeper and will shoot those up for the brass as I do load workups for it.
Well let's try the 85gr an 75gr an see what happens could be a twist fluke but I highly doubt it barrel could be done but I have my doubts on that also. There was a video on the same rifle a caliber on UA-cam from a few yrs back that had the same problem but I can't find it now .my nephew came bringing me a 1968 win. Model 70 22-250 said make it shoot 😄. But anyway I'm curious to see what's going on with the Bob good luck
I just happened to have the ken waters book in front of me so I looked up the 257 roberts and noticed that with some of the heavier bullets he said the standard m70 was accurate but the featherweight was erratic which I find very interesting I'd be happy to share his findings with ya
308 Guy, I haven't heard that name in a long time. Is that from his book, Pet Loads?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving yes sir it is
@@308guy8 Please do I would appreciate that. I'm also curious as to what you think about his book overall. I've been considering getting an old copy when ever one shows up on ebay. And I can't remember if I gave you my email but it's trsimpleliving@gmail.com. it's easier for me to reply there and a lot quicker.
I got to thinking about your problem here and I know that the new Enron imr powder’s has anti copper fouling agents in in it I was wondering if shooting several cartridges with a suitable Enron powder would be
Hello Tom. Coming to you from Canada here. I appreciate the videos on loading for the Roberts as it is very timely for me. I have a M77 Ultralight from the 80s and am playing around with the loads right now as well. My question is regarding the brass and the loading data from different sources. You chose Winchester brass because you had it, which makes sense. But is the data you are following in your book, velocities in particular, affected? I'm sure you have noticed the vast differences in max min loads for IMR4350 (my choice as well) between Hodgdon and Nosler in particular. Is this down to the different brass used??? I am using Nosler brass, and I think my velocity would be slightly higher than your velocities with the same loads and same bullets. My bullet choice is the 115 partition though.
Mjb, I certainly have noticed the vast differences in loadings. I was just commenting on that with someone earlier that noticed my velocities were a lot slower on my second group than my first and they noticed that by the change in muzzle blast. My 1st group was a 120gr Speer with Speer data and the 2nd Group was a 117 Sierra with Sierra data and the Sierra data was a lot weaker. I think what's happening is that some manufacturers load data is for standard 257 Roberts that had really low pressure limits, some are loading for +p which has a higher pressure limit, and some don't really care about the +p designation and are just loading to whatever? I don't think the brass has anything to do with it? And I have noticed max pressure listings all over the map just depending on who's data. For me, I'm just going by whatever data is listed by whoever's bullet I'm using and just trying to find a load that shows some potential on accuracy. Once I find a good load or a load with potential I'll see where it ends up on velocity and go from there. If it has good velocity and accuracy I'll call it good and if it doesn't have the velocity then I'll probably go back and do some pressure testing to see just how far up I can take it. And I would have definitely done some pressure testing on the Sierra Game Kings had they showed more potential. Good luck on yours!
Nosler and Hodgdon both use Plus P for their data. For 115s they are not even in the same ball park. I think it was 5 grains difference between Nosler's max and Hodogon's max for IMR4350. And they come out at similar velocities...That is why I wondered if the thicker brass Nosler is known for is giving higher pressure. I am 2 grains over max using Nosler data with Nosler brass. I'll be curious what the chronograph reads when I get one.
Now we know why the man sent it to you Tom because you will take the effort needed to sort it out.
Have you thought about changing your primers? I have seen in the past that primers can be the reason for the long fliers - good luck
Mike, the problem with that rifle ended up being the lands in the barrel weren't even. Do a search for 257 Roberts Project, Mystery of the Inaccurate WInchester Solved. I don't know if you saw this past Sunday's video but if so it's a different WInchester Featherweigh in 257 Roberts.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Hi Tom - yes I did see your other video that you showed with the bore scope.(after I posted my comment).. I am a new sub to your channel and I am really hooked.. .you had a great non assuming personality.. .I cant wait to see what your next videos are surrounding your 257 Roberts.. good luck with it !
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I did not realize that you had two 257 Roberts
@@mikes1097 Mike, that shows just how obsessed I am with this rifle! LOL I bought the 2nd one a 2012 model just to see if was different and it was and wasn't. It was half a pound heavier and felt much better shooting but the accuracy wasn't there on it either but I figured out why on it.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving YEs each rifle is a case unto itself.. I have a customized pre-64 Model 70. The action was built in 1954 and it has a Douglas 25/06 barrel. It sits in a McMillian fiberglass stock that looks exactly like a Pre-64 wooden stock. i love the model 70 action.. I had a 270 Super Grade classic (built around 1992 I think) that I regret selling to this day. Sorry for the rambling :)
Amazing how much fouling that bore had in it. I'm curious to know what type of bullets were passing through it, and if all copper, or copper jacketed makes an appreciable difference between the two in how much fouling occurs.
Someone commented earlier that the solid copper bullets cause more fouling. And I'm thinking this bore is just a tad on the small side which led to it picking up more fouling?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I had to think about that for second... FN cold hammer forges their barrels. I guess that could be a possibility if the bore mandrel was toward the end of it's life span. Kind of like stamping presses for sheet metal panels, I know you only get so many stampings before those dies fall outside of allowable tolerances. The bore mandrels have more intense stresses than that so I could see how that could happen o er a production run. Even so, a lead core bullet can swage down quite a bit but a copper alloy really needs those relief grooves to catch those lands withing a set tolerance to prevent over pressure. It seems like it could potentially be a combination of those 2 factors: bore size+solid copper bullets.
I reckon you’re dead on the money with the lack of run in done on that rifle. Fingers crossed we see some sub 2” in a nice pattern next week!!
Rick I think you're going to like next week's results because we actually made some progress!
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I like all your videos!
On your first group you had muzzle flash on all shots but the second. May be a velocity difference?
Big velocity difference, and good observation Emmett! The 2nd group was when I started the load testing for the 117 Game Sierra and Sierra had a really week loading. The first group was my starting load for Speer 120gr that I've just been using as a standard to check our progress from the 1st trip and Speer used higher pressure limits for their 257 Roberts load data. And I stuck to with the published data for both even though I'm certain the Sierra was really weak.
can't wait for you to get to the range either. I really don't understand the need for a 4 shot group. You're probably gonna get a flyer nearly every time on that 4th shot because of a really hot thin barrel. Personally, I've never understood the need for a 3 shot group. A first shot at game is always a cold barrel and if a second shot is needed so be it, but if someone has to shoot a third time, the animal is probably running and who is concerned with accuracy at that point lol. Tight groups are ego pleasers. I like tight groups as much as the next guy but there is absolutely no reason to shoot 4 shot groups. Of course, Tom, that is just my opinion, good or bad.
East Texan, you have no idea how often I have struggled with that very thing. And I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I have found over the years that when I get a rifle to where it will group 4 shots that rifle is right. With 3 shots it might be right? I also get more information by firing 4 shots instead of 3 and it makes my range trips more productive. With the results in this video I had 3 shots that weren't bad but that 4th was a flyer. i could have stopped there and not checked out the bore and did the heavy cleaning and that 3 shot group may have been somewhat consistent? That 3 shot group also may have feel apart on the next trip? Now with that said, I just went to the range since this cleaning and saw some pretty big improvements. I also saw some other interesting things. I'm thinking this bore is slightly too small at the muzzle and that's why it has so much fouling in the bore and not just on the lands. And I fired a 1.4" group since the cleaning that seems to confirm that. It was a 4 shot group but the first shot was the flyer. The next 3 shots measured under 1/2 an inch. I think it was either the first shot put just enough fouling back in the bore to really make it start shooting or it heated the bore just enough to reduce the drag because it made the bore diameter bigger? Hopefully we figure that out or it could have just been a fluke? LOL
As for the thin barrel, I went through this with the 7x57 Featherweight. The first 2 shots would touch each other every single time and then the 3rd was a flyer and the 4th even worse. And I thought the same thing about thin barrels and flyers and I hunted with it like that for a while but eventually I figured out the stock was warping and putting a lot of pressure on the action. I relieved the wood and it suddenly started stacking them in there even with 4 and 5 shot groups.
That's why I prefer 4 shot groups. And I went back to 3 shot groups when ammo got so scarce but I just didn't feel like I got enough info from 3 shots and I had to many groups that didn't hold up when I went back after load testing. I think it actually saves me money on ammo in the long run with 4 shots because when I get a 4 shot group that shoots good that load tends to work from then on? But the question of which is best 3 or 4 shots is something I struggled with for a long time.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Tom how long do you wait between your shots? I think I'm shooting too fast. Been shooting 3 then cooling, but shoot them in pretty quick succession.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving Tom, thank you for taking the time with this explanation. We all want tight groups. I have that 6.5x55 Swede Model 96 that was converted back in 2000 that shoots 3 touching if I do my part and it's a 108 year old rifle by receiver date. The rifling does not appear to be that old. I did one deep cleaning much like you just did back when I first got the rifle but since then I have only run a bore snake through the barrel after each range session. It's a sweetheart for sure.
Interesting perspective. Never thought about it like that. Thank you.
@@cbsbass4142 I was doing the same thing with same results. The range here in SC gets hot around 9;00 am so I can only get in a couple groupings anyway.
Did you ever try any Marvel Mystery Oil for me that helps get a lot of stuff out in with what you're done using good luck maybe you can get some half inch group eventually
Interesting. I have MMO. I might just try it. Thanks
I didn't Roger, but I sure have heard a lot of people swear by that stuff. I've just stuck with the Kroll mainly because I have it but also because it seems to be doing the trick for me and once I see something works it's hard for me to change.
Hello Tom I know what you mean about that I keep both of them in my cleaning box plus some FP10 with that you can do just about anything you need more I think. Good luck with the load development on your rifle. Have a wonderful day and God bless
I can not recall have you tried just regular factory loads. Just for comparison to hand loads. Their is a UA-cam channel I watch halfmilesniper he goes over the barrel and clean and use the scope. He has some good videos. Before and after point of view. Check him out may find some helpful info or at least visually
Thanks Brandon I will check him out just because I'm also interesting in hearing different thought on all of this. And I just went to the range the cleaning did make a difference. I'll get that edited and post the results this coming Sunday. And no I haven't tried any factory ammo mainly because it's so tough to find right now.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I can't even find any brass other than Nosler Custom run they have (or had) and they are very proud of their brass. $$$
I guess if you bought a new rifle, fed it good ammo and it shot great.....would have no reason for videos. But this way, if some viewer buys an older rifle, finds out the reason the previous owner sold or traded was accuracy problems, then the new owner would have a bluepring to follow to improve the shootablility of the firearm.......... I am really interested if this procedure worked on the Westerner???? If so, how well did it work? Is the Westerner now a real shooter or just a shooter???
Jerry, I thought this project was going to be really simple and for me 2012 is a "new" rifle. LOL But I've always had a talent for picking out the one whatever with problems. And I mean that seriously and I'm so good at that that I actually managed to make a living out of it. I have worked in quality control for the past 22 years!
And it's funny you mentioned the Westerner because I carried it out on the last range trip. I just wanted to get some more rounds through it to get see if it was ever going to settle down and sure enough it started shooting on the 2 group I fired? I fired 3 shots that all had good velocities (3075fps) and the group was under an inch with 2 touching. It was so good I saved the 4 shot just to verify what load that was. I will be getting back to that one eventually but I have a few more things to take care of first.
I think that fella that sold you the rifle was full of 💩 on the round count. I shoot a lot of monolithic bullets and I don’t see that amount of copper fouling.
I believe him both because of the condition of the rifle and because of the circumstances. It was his 90 year old father's and I can't imagen his father doing a tremendous amount of shooting with it? But even regardless of that I have found that most people tend to be honest on such things?
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving lol, Ignorance is bliss ? Just doesn't add up. Could just be a rough barrel. I'm loving the adventure though!
this process makes absolutely no sense. All you’re doing is scrubbing barrel life away. There’s countless videos like by the military arms channel explaining the craziness. m.ua-cam.com/video/JW_VREYfZ2k/v-deo.html
Or like by Gunblue490
m.ua-cam.com/video/jCIi-SklcP8/v-deo.html
Scrubbing and polishing the rifling away is nuts! You said that gases are escaping around the bullet as it travels down the barrel. How does scrubbing away material, essentially creating a wider path, remedy this? As you lose barrel material, you lose barrel life. Therefore decreasing accuracy as you go. Again, the process makes absolutely no sense.
Gunblue has some good videos. I think his explanation on barrel break in is one of the best break downs as to why it’s a waste of time, money, and your barrels accuracy life. I love toms channel but watching him scrub away those barrels was tough to watch lol
🤷🏻♂️
@@fgovern If all of that scrubbing cuts the size of my shot groups in half will I be forgiven? LOL
Hi Tom, sorry if i missed it but what borescope do you use?
Earl you didn't miss it. I didn't say which one because I can never remember the brand but I just checked and it's a teslong. The app you download on your phone is not very good but it works. And for the price I'm not going to complain.
tooling marks ? hammer forged barrel ? yes or no?
Yes
It’s just not. Grouping. A miracle is required
Dominic, make sure you watch this Sunday! Still not great but greatly improved after this cleaning.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving ok
Sometimes you can get new rifle and take a trip to the range and everything just works out perfect. That does not happen every time. Spending the time looking at the rifle closely before you take the first trip sometimes saves time and frustration doing it beforehand. Loading data recommends powder and bullet loads but seldom points to ones that are most popular for the best accuracy.
Maybe cleaning, lapping ,cleaning, lapping,and cleaning time ??
Big I think this bore is on the small side so that might really help it with the lapping but I've been back to the range and this might end up being enough because it was better.
Tom, what state did you get your "tick bite" in ? Scary stuff.
South Carolina, and the Lone Star tick that causes it is the most common tick in Georgia, S.C., and North Carolina. It's not a guarantee that getting bit by one will cause it but it's definitely a possibility.
I would like to get one of those thungs you have on your right shoulder. What is the official name of that. I want to do an Internet search for one. I take a lot of blood thinners and I now brise a lot easier than I used to. BTW, good clinic on rifle cleaning.
It's a "Past" shoulder pad and you should be able to find one pretty easy? I started using this one for a similar reason. I lost a lot of weight when I first developed alpha gal syndrome (allergic to red meat because of a tick bite) and I had a hard time handling heavy recoil then. And now after cutting out red meat my blood is really thin and now it keeps me from getting bruised. And now that I've gotten used to it I never go to the range without it! I hope it helps you.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I ordered one from Amazon!
I need to watch the end of the video before comments. Lol.
Big, hopefully they're right about great minds thinking a like! LOL
After you get a little more experience, you will learn that on the first range trip, the rifle should be properly glass bedded, the barrel freefloated, trigger fine tuned, scope mounts loctited or even bedded, everything torqued properly and with a "PROVEN" scope and some handloads ready for load development. Unless you just like wasting ammo and time. This isn't rocket surgery, nor is it hard. You skimp and you get undesirable inconsistent results. A lot of you use that approach, but it's not the best. START with a solid rifle right at the get go. Does that make any sense to you??
Well for me personally I like to take a new rifle to the range as is just to see what I'm starting with. From there I can make changes and see how those turn out and what effect they have on accuracy. And I'm really getting to know a rifle during all of that. And in the case of this rifle all of that quality time just paid off and I finally figured out the last piece of this puzzle and it's a dozy. The lands aren't even in the bore. One land starts as soon as the chamber ends and 180 degrees to it the opposite land has what looks to be about 1/8th of an inch of free bore before that land starts with all of the other lands are somewhere in between. I don't know if the chamber was cut at an angle or how they managed to that? But I can say that I was only able to figure that out because of spending time at the range with this rifle, looking at all of the problems we started with, the ones we still have,, and I finally decided their had to be a problem with the throat. So I did another thorough cleaning along with a thorough inspection of the throat and sure enough there it was. Had it not been for that I'm confident that this rifle would have been driving tacks on the 2nd trip? But it's tough to predict issues like this.
What brand bore scope is that
Brian, it's a Teslong. It's cheap but the plus side is it's cheap and it does all I need.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving where can I find one
@@brianwilliams2719 They have them on Amazon
Life's to short. Rebarrel it with a Bartlein.