"If you have been around so many dishonest people that you no longer trust anyone, you need to hang around with other people." This is why I love your channel.
Trusting the wrong people in my line of work will get you killed. I learned a long time ago to not trust anyone you dont know and be wary of those you do.
Tom, please return that rifle to FN. I am a retired lifelong machinist, manufacturing engineer, and quality manager. Your rifle's chamber is not concentric with the rifle bore. I had this myself on a Taurus 9mm. An aftermarket barrel took care of it. There is no fixing that barrel. At this point you can return it to FN and they should take care of it. If they don't, that will send a message to the rest of us longtime Model 70 owners. I had looked forward to buying one last Model 70 Super Grade after purchasing Model 70's since my first one in 225 Winchester a half century ago. But I don't want anything to do with them if that is typical of FN quality these days. It's bad enough they let one get out the door like that, but if they don't do you right, it's unforgivable. So, you see, you have to send it back, for all of us to know. I would suggest making some tiny mark on the barrel on an inconspicuous spot concealed by the stock, then returning it. You'll know if they changed the barrel then. Otherwise they may run a throating reamer in, and then you will have a throat concentric to the bore, but not with your chamber. It will look like it is fixed, but won't be. God bless and keep up the great videos!
I put some thought into this and you're absolutely right. That would account for the uneven start to the rifling at the throat of the bore. Kudos to you. BTW, I have the same working background as a 45 year experienced machinist, also now retired.
Tom, many years ago I bought a Winchester 70xtr in .257 Roberts with a absolutely exquisite piece of wood on it. Uncommon to say the least. I was so thrilled to have found this very uncommon beauty in the rare 257 chambering, I was beside myself. What a trophy!! Until I shot the rifle. My God, this thing threw bullets from one side of the target to the other. Didn't matter what it was fed, it puked everything. I was sick!! To shorten the story I complained to Winchester about the gun and they actually took it back and rebarreled it in New Haven. This fixed the issue and the rifle has been perfect ever since. My original 257 was still a classic original. My suggestion to you is no matter what, even if you must beg, borrow, or steal to get it done, see if there is not some way to get FN to rebarrel this rifle in their facility. It's a classic, very rare and worth the effort. One other note, this was not the first M-70 I have owned that really did not perform well. Thats why at this point, and just a personal thing, beautiful as they are, the last on my list for purchase if I want a troublefree rifle that shoots. Good luck!!
Congrats on your detective work. Did this to myself on my first threading and chambering job. I left a burr at the end of the throat and wasted some ammo before I figured it out. If your gunsmith's reamer has a little longer throat it will fix the problem. Maybe even do a Ackley chamber if he has that reamer. What FN did is start the chamber with drill bits and cleaned it up with a boring bar before using the reamer, all on a CNC machine. They do this to save reamers. But if the CNC is not homed correct it will be off center enough that the reamer can't fix it.
Tom. Thank you for the great video. On my new Winchester Model 70 30-06, the bore has even and symmetric grooves. However, I too had problems with accuracy with similar horizontal POI shifts. I tried all sorts of factory loads from about 8-10 manufacturers. I was about to give up on this Model 70. I found the problem was a lack of sufficient bedding of the action. I bedded the recoil lug and rear tang, and this solved my accuracy problems. Good luck and don't give up hope.
Tom, I figured the patient and stubborn part out but I'm even worse. My fix for that beautiful rifle is 257AI improved with a long throat. I have thourally enjoyed the series..Will be watching for the strong finish!!!!
I just recently picked up a REM 722 in 257 Roberts. Built in 1956. Rifle is in great shape. Haven't shot it yet. I measured the barrel with a cleaning rod to the bolt face and only get 20.5". This really handicaps this round even more on velocity. From what I can see, they only made 22" and 24" barrels. I am wondering if someone cut it down, because it looked to me like the but stock was shortened then lengthened with some spacers and a recoil pad. Gonna shoot it for sure first, but now considering having a new barrel made for it at 24". Then I started thinking, why not the 257 AI? You can still find the Roberts and +p ammo at gun shows and online, but the AI, not sure that would be available. I got 70 rounds of ammo with this rifle for $350.
It might be a simple process to return the barreled action to Winchester. I would expect they would likely replace the barrel with another. The repair and warranty department likely has highly skilled personnel that would be the best ones to address the the issue. Having it sitting in your gun case will only make you more unhappy with your discovery. It also would take less time and money. You have plenty of other good rifles to use this season. 🤞👍
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving That's what I would do. You have nothing to lose by doing it, and if the result isn't satisfactory and your heart is still set on this Winchester, you could invest in getting it rebarreled, either in .257 Roberts or another caliber, easier if you stick to the same case head size, of course. As it happens, the .257 Roberts has the exact same case head size as the .308 Winchester, the .30-06 and all of the cartridges derived from the venerable '06, and the parent case for the .257 Roberts, the 7x57mm Mauser.
Tom, thanks for this great series. Iv’e learned a few things along the way, as well as being entertained. One thing to consider, if you send it back to the manufacturer, you will be bringing a problem to their attention & give them a chance to make it right & instill confidence in them for others thinking about buying one of their rifles. If they handle it poorly, that would also be a public service to other potential customers , & then you can decide what to do after that. At the least, send them a video or photos or some documentation that points out the defect. Just a thought & keep up the great work!
Tom great video and technical info. I had same issue on a 243 featherweight. Horrible and inconsistent accuracy would not shoot any bullet from 70 - 100 grain to a decent group. After inspection of bore lands were inconsistent as well. I ordered a #4 Shilen barrel 8” twist and sent to my gunsmith barrel cut at 24” with target crown, pillar bed stock, glass bed action and free floating barrel. Results were excellent shooting extremely well consistent sub 1/2” groups @100 yds with first load I tried with 95 grain Berger bullets! I agree winchester featherweight rifles are beautiful but I have not worked on a featherweight that is accurate out of the box! Someone down the line dropping the ball not delivering accurate rifles for customers.
I am sorry this rifle is flawed. Glad you figured it out but it is a serious flaw. I think your best option is to send it to FN. They are the best qualified to make it right. I suspect it needs a new barrel, but I am no expert. Let FN determine what needs to be done. TY MH
i bought this same rifle about 25 yrs ago -model 70 xtr featherweight in 257 roberts -every time the weather changed so would point of impact-took it to a well known gunsmith and he glass bedded stock and free floated barrel-always hand loaded ammo and she shoots like a dream ever since
Excellent series on this rifle and troubleshooting the issue. I've got a .257 Roberts built on a Mauser that looks good on the outside but under the hood whomever built it was bad. She's had vertical stringing to the tune of 13". Among the problems I've addressed and the main culprit was a loose freaking barrel. I've got it down to about 2-3 inches and fingers crossed when I get back to it this coming summer some further load development will fully resolve the stringing. On the ammo department I got lucky and the shop I found the rifle at had 8 bags of 7mm Mauser range brass and upon a closer look there was brand new Winchester brass mixed in. Bought em all and ended up with 248 new cases to size down and fire form plus hundreds of mixed brass to use over time.
Thanks Tom, I've enjoyed following along on this project. Personally I know what I'd do, but it is likely not what you'd want to do. I'd have that barrel removed and replaced with and ER Shaw custom in 257 Roberts. I know it isn't the original, but I am all about getting this thing up and running. The Shaw barrel looks to be about $200 then some more for the gun smith, but after that you'll have a great shooting and great looking rifle. I guess it comes from putting together the Mausers that I have. I never looked at them as restorations, but modifications to create shooters for the field. Anyway, good luck and yes deer season is upon us. It's time to get in the woods.
Mr. Tom, you are the definition of “wherewithal”. That was excellent any This ol’ knucklehead learned several things about rifle accuracy. Looking forward to seeing Joey’s .270 WSM!
I bought a used 7X57 Mauser Model 70 Feartherweght the other day. When I picked it up, I inspected the bore. It was plenty fouled. Well, I followed a lot of tips gleaned from your recent episode cleaning your .257 Roberts. The bore is super duper shiny! I installed a rifle scope this afternoon. The Loctite is curing and then I will take it to the range and sight it in with some PPU 139 grain ammo. I finished off the cleaning with my bore snake! Boy, that took some muscle🥴. I ain't as young as I used to be. But, if the darn bore snakes were shorter, I'd have better leverage!
i stopped the video at 35sec because I was laughing out loud. I love this guy! What a joy you are, Tom. Please keep doing all you do. Faithful subscriber here, I watch and enjoy. God bless, And have a great day!
Very interesting on the verdict. Could you not shorten the barrel 1/2" off of the chamber end and have it re-chamered in 257 roberts again? I feel like that would be a good excuse to also get a longer throat for the rifle to be able to seat the 120 grainers out further like you mentioned the fellow at the range did. Good luck this deer season!
Not that easy especially on a featherweight contour and with an extractor cut, plus most factory guns have an undercut between shoulder and threads so after "chasing" threads, you'd have a gap of about two threads.
Hey Tom. First video of yours I've seen, really enjoyed it. I once worked on a beautiful Parker Hale .243 that did almost the exact same thing. Cured it by doing a "one shot, then clean" routine for 20 rounds. Excellent accuracy afterwards. Thanks again for fun video.
Tom, I'm commenting for a second time, which is highly unusual for me. My 257 Roberts was in a Remington 700 Classic. It had been neglected. Bolt handle was rusted, the safety was so rusty as well as the trigger. Yet it still shot sub moa. Townsend Whelen said as you well know that only accurate rifles are interesting. Please send that rifle back to FN and let them make it into an interesting rifle, instead of the terrible disappointment it is.
Good video! My dad had a problem similar to yours. many years ago my dad acquired a Geco in 220 Swift. The man that gave it to my dad was a Quaker preacher and he told my dad that it was not accurate. My dad being a machinist and worked on many rifles and pistols in his shop was determined to resolve the problem. After doing everything he could think of the problem was still with the rifle. He decided to recrown it thinking it was a waste of time. When he took the rifle to the range it shot one bullet on top of one another at a 100 YD. it wound up being one of the most accurate rifles he had. Never give up is a good motto for all of us!
Tom this too bad! But I have watched many other videos featuring the FN built M70 in which the owner of the gun had amazing accuracy without doing a thing to it. I’ve also worked with my brother on his FN built M70 and it is very accurate across a wide range different loads. I think you’re correct in your investigation but I do think they would stand behind it and fix it. That would be the route I’d go, I bet you’d be happy.
Great video Tom !!!! I have two Remington 257 Roberts rifles that I have labored with over the past two years and have found them to be very load sensitive. The first is a 700 Classic Long Action with a 24 inch barrel and what appears to be a shade over 1:10 twist. It has become a tack driver with 87 and 100 grain sierra bullets, IMR 4350 and long seating ..... I have tried many heavier bullets and they are just never going to work. Meanwhile my 700 Long Action Mountain rifle with a light 22 inch barrel, 1:9 twist, worked well with the same 87 Grain and 100 grain loads but again poorly with 117 grain loads . I Found salvation with Sierra 110 gain Gamechangers, H4350 powder and long seating. Amazing 1/2 MOA. I know thats a completely different set of issues than the one you were investigating so nicely ..... but I thought I'd pass along my experience for anyone who is chasing 257 Roberts accuracy issues and looks at your wonderful video.
I have a Hawkeye borescope and have looked a a lot of factory chambers, no black swan here, it is a very clear and present problem in many factory guns. I believe because of high production, they have to use a pilot on the reamer that is much smaller than bore diameter and can cause straight throat issues, also, most production chambers are cut in two to three steps. Have you ever noticed that on a blued Remington 700 chamber the shoulder isn't blued, or the eagle talons left from cutting the belt on a magnum causing scratches on brass or extraction issues. I recently had a Win. Model 70 Classic in 7 STW in the shop at the same time I was building a custom 7 STW. Come to find out the factory Winchester chamber, though it headspaced perfectly, has a shoulder that was cut .020, yes 20 thousandths, longer than SAAMI spec.. So, factory chambers and depending on how some custom builders hold their reamers or how perfectly fit the pilot on reamer is, the chamber will have a lopsided throat/lead.
Hey Tom, you did a great job of troubleshooting and diagnosing the problem. My first thought was that FN may have used an old, worn out reamer to make the chamber. I never considered the possibility of the chamber being off center, you may be right about that. Or it could be that they used a floating reamer to cut the chamber then just messed up cutting the throat afterwards. A chamber casting might help to sort it out. One possible solution you might consider is to rent a throating reamer just to clean up the lands. Another possible solution is to rechamber to an Improved 257, but that is another can of worms. Its a shame they messed up such a nice rifle. Good luck with it.
Completely agree this black swan was/is a great project! I, too, learned from this rifle. I wasn’t too familiar with lands starting unequally, either. Like you, I realized machining issues can and do occur in that area in the form of tolerances etc., but not necessarily this unequally with lands. And, very clever way to put this week’s video out. JMHO, it would be neat to see you eventually get a new barrel put on with a 1/9 twist, like the gentleman at the range. Have a great week!
Love a mystery! But who is going to pay for this great mistake! I would give FN a chance to fix it and if not it’s time for a new barrel in a 257 Robert’s!
Everybody needs a project, and some project force you to learn...and learn you have. The good news, is you have options, from rechambering to barreling..your trip with this rife forced me to do a lot of reading, mostly about the caliber..and from my reading { I have never owned a .257 or any of the smaller calibers for that matter} It would seem a .257 is a difficult cartridge to get to shoot accurately. Again that's just from reading mostly on forums about the caliber. But, like you, I have learned a lot, and really enjoyed learning about the caliber. A great project, with great videos, and a wonderful learning opportunity. Having said that, if it were me, I would make it a 25/06 and never look back....but that's just an old guy who loves anything derived from the 30.06...God Bless and thanks for the education.
It might be possible for a gunsmith to turn the barrel down one full thread and re-chamber it that much deeper for the same cartridge... that was P. O. Ackley's method for re-chambering rifles for his improved cartridges, if I'm not mistaken.
Tom I would say that if you old closely check some of your fire formed brass you will find that the chamber is not parallel with the bore or bolt. The case head will possibly have some runout if uou check it with a dial indicator. Just another thought, happy hunting!!!
I thought the same thing. If he had a true flat surface could he stand fire formed brass in a group then even just eyeball which are leaning? Rotating the leaning ones should change the direction they lean. And I'm thinking if he ran a runout gauge he'd find the bodies offcenter and the case heads out of square. If it was my rifle, I'd replace the barrel with a quality .257 Roberts chambered highly polished and blued barrel. Or maybe someone's got a pulled .257 Roberts FN-Win barrel for sale. I can see plenty being rebarreled to more common calibers by 2nd owners.
Thank you Tom. I have just discovered your clips and can appreciate your patience concerning rifle problems. I'd say at a guess you have it shooting just fine by now and I shall be looking out for the end results.
Tom if your not going to do anything to the rifle for 3 month’s or more might as well send it in. For nothing else but so we all will know if browning will stand behind the Winchester product. But what I would do is send the barreled action to pac-nor and have them put a Mach grade barrel with a faster twist so you can shoot the heavy bullets. They can Mach the factory contour too. I had them put a 6.5x55 Swede barrel on a howa 1500 action for me. I bedded it in a Boyd’s stock and it will shoot 3/8 in. This was about ten year’s ago and it is what I take for deer every year. I never think about what it cost because I love the rifle and it is exactly what I wanted. Every time you take it to the range and shoot it and see that clover leaf you will be happy you did it. Just think of it as you bought a beautiful action and stock so you can make the rifle you always wanted. Thanks for the videos and can’t wait to see what you decide to do.be safe and live free
The original 257 Roberts I bought was a m77 Ruger with tang safety. It would only shoot 115g nosler bt bullets, nothing else that I tried would group. I traded it and bought another Ruger 77 Hawkeye that shot great, then got a win m70 super grade Cabela's special. It shoots nice tight groups. So I traded the Hawkeye for a different rifle. Now I wish I hadn't since I like the Ruger 77.
11:43 in to the video. The only explaination is the chamber was reamed eccentrically to the bore axis. I suspected it earlier, but the borescope footage confirmed it.
I will be watching this to see what FN does because I have bought hundreds of model 70’s mostly used over my 60 years of hunting and collecting and this is very concerning and mostly to see what they do! I have a friend who is a pistol collector and bought a new pistol and it had a problem just not the same as yours but they called him back and accused him of missing with it to try to not cover it under warranty and he bring a nice guy got it back and being a retired machinist fixed it himself but in doing so I will never buy a gun new or used from that brand and I am putting the word out to the hundreds of people I see about what they did to him! Give FN a chance because I am dying to see that happens my friend
I enjoyed watching someone else figure out a mystery. I have on a Remington 7400. 270. I had a few issues to deal with but now i know. Shoots sub moa w handloads.
A coworker I knew about 40 years ago, was always bragging about his .257 Roberts. I always thought about buying a .257 Roberts, but I don't see any rifle chambered in the cartridge -- even used.
Almost looks like a chip got wedged on one side in the free bore at the last turn or two just before the reamer was pulled out. I think it could be cleaned up by a good gunsmith - I would go that route that first. Good luck Tom, nice rifle though!
Hello Tom, I really enjoyed your forensic theme “incl the music”, lol. I’m glad you feel you have this issue nailed down. What you said makes sense to me about the wobble of projectile entry causing variation in non repeatable seating depth measurements, and the wobble causing blow-bye causing extreme copper fowling seems plausible. Question is, can the rifling be recut to end up evenly at chamber, or is it cut on an angle not making this possible? Realizing a barrel replacement would be a costly endeavor, this might be the only solution? If this be the case, wouldn’t it sure be nice to have a new barrel cut with a bit faster twist, “if you end up here?” Good luck my friend, please keep us in the loop. God bless 😎👍
I had issues with my model 70 in .338 Winchester. I polished the bore with polishing paper, bedded the stock and it still shot 4 inch groups. I sent it off to Ice Age and had the barreled action cryo frozen. Groups shrank to 1.1 inch. At 100.
Many years ago I bought a similar model 70 XTR FWT in .243 new in box at a store closing auction. Beautiful rifle with horrible accuracy. One gunsmith had it and tried unsuccessfully to fix it. Another gunsmith I talked to told me to take the action out and remount it with very little torque on the front screw after tensioning carefully back to front. He never even saw the rifle but it fixed the problem and it has shot great for almost 40 years since. I thought for awhile you were going to find the same issue
It seems I have another issue with this one, but I will sure keep that in mind because I also have an XTR Featherweight and I have noticed that it has a pressure point in the forend of the stock. So I can see to where that could make a big difference on accuracy. Thanks for sharing that!
I pulled the barrel off mine and replaced it after alot of similar issues. I just borescoped the old barrel out of curiosity and I can see the lands not quite even with each other. Not as bad as yours though.
The lands might not be the same height and will never ream to be even in the throat. Some barrels just dont have good lands and groove height from manufacturing.
the only model 70 i had was from the usmc in .30-06 , from the womens unit ,it had thousands and thousands of rounds through it ,and was quite shot out. Get my barrels at numrich ,as they are the best deal.though id try a hallow base lead one in it just to see. GREAT VIDEO !!!
I'd re chamber the rifle to. 257 Robert's Ackley improved. Hopefully with the chamber being reamed it should correct some of those issues, also have them blue print the action too.
Also being uneven, if its been cleaned alot or oiled being a chrome moly if the individual cleaning the rifle doesnt use a bore guide then the cleaning rod can actually cause the damage you are seeing which is a high possibility given that there is no real defined start to the rifling as well. And it is usually at 6 or 12 o'clock due to how the rod bends and people use them. Worth a thought
Wow Tom, I bought a brand new FN Win M70, in 7mm 08. It was a beautiful rifle, I just loved it. It did not shoot well. I did get a deer with it (60 yards) but the best group I got out of it was 1.25 inch off the bench. Many more times it gave me 5 inch groups. It did shoot better with 150 grain ammo. It did not like lighter bullets. They would not be on paper. For a long time, I thought it was me. I kept tinkering. I saw a used Marlin, a JM 336 in 30 30, and spontaneously bought it. It gave 1.25 groups. But it gave 1.25 groups all the time, with whatever I put in it. It is a real good off hand rifle as well. So I sold the Winchester. Problem solved!
Awe man, Tom. That's a bummer. I hope FN will work with you on this. I haven't ever had to deal with their customer service, but then I haven't had any issues, let alone something this bad with any of my FN weapons.
I'm in the same boat your in with a remington 700 in 7mm remington magnum accuracy finally figured out my scope rings were no good scope was sliding in the rings and turned to the right and deer season starts this Saturday for us in florida and I don't have time to fool with it anymore right now
Remington went through a similar issue with the 1187 model shot gun. In the first year of production it was common to have a barrel with the chokes installed off center---either offset to one side or at an angle. This left a ridge at the back of the choke which was then pounded by the shot charge. Eventually it caused the choke to break in half with a section of it going out the end of the barrel. This happened to me during a sporting clays match. Suddenly I could not hit anything--even straight away targets. It was only some months later I discovered the damage. Remington would not make good on the barrel.
Tom, this is the first Model 70 I’ve ever heard of that wasn’t accurate as could be. I had one of these SC/FN 257’s and it was a 3 shots under a quarter at a 100yds, totally a dream. I’m gob-smacked about seeing a Model 70 that isn’t a tack driver, wow! I hope you’ve decided to keep it as a 257 Roberts. Take care and be well!
Well, I would say that this 257 Roberts Project has been so far a success. Sure, the gun isn't where you want it to be at, but it has taught all of us more about developing sub-moa loads for a rifle than I think all of us thought we were going to learn. Anyways, it will be interesting to see what route you decide to take and how it all turns out.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving You are welcome! Your story on trusting the seller reminds me of a story I heard on Guns and Ammo TV. That show does a segment on older firearms, and one of their historic firearms experts is Garry James. He was discussing a civilian model Colt 1911 that he purchased decades ago that dated around 1915 - 1916. At the time the seller had told him that the gun was used in World War I. Well, Garry being an expert knew that the date preceded America's entry into the war, and that it was also the civilian model caused him to not really buy the story. But he liked the gun and bought it at what he considered to be a fair price. Later on he contacted Colt for one of their archive letters and it came back showing that the story the seller had told him was true. The gun that he didn't think was used in World War I actually was, but by the French Army. What happened is that the French bought in 1915 - 1916 the civilian model Colt 1911's for military use. There are no special markings on these guns and only a Colt factory letter can prove if the gun was purchased by the French military.
Well, I have to have more range trips with the 7X57 F. W.. I have no borescope, and would hate to think I may have the same problem. Right now I'm glad I have no bore scope to find out. Hope you get the problem resolved.
People who mistrust and assume the worst of others are often untrustworthy themselves. Once again, nice video (hunkering down near the fire during a blizzard in Bruce County Ontario)
Interesting. I recall, years ago Browning had problems with the FN barrels on their Safari model rifles. Some of those rifles just wouldn't shoot worth a darn.
257 roberts Ruger, traded it for a colt 1861 , but got me thinkin on the 264 winchester magnum, legendary goat gun. I must look up that rate of twist between the ruger and the chesterwin. Nosler boat tails.
Hello Tom , its Danie youre old youtube friend from South Africa, hope you remember me .This was one of the best composed videos ive seen to date , youre cool and calm way with the light touch of humor , its absolutely ninja. Now i i dont know if im to asumptiou's if i say i know youre dark side (gun porn side ) . Bullet point format in what it is that i believe you love about this rifle. •light weight. •Caliber • its a Winchester ! ( a lemon ) • the most important thing - the wood ! So my solution would be take the Rifle to a TRUSTED! gun smith and have them re barrel the rifle , this way you can keep every thing that you love about this Rifle and have it function superbly . Some would say the can shorten that barrel slightly from the rear but in my experience if the chaimber is not true with the bore the even if you cut about 40 mm from the rear and re chaimber it, the reamer wil most of the times follow that old path and youle be back to square one . do you own a lathe tom ?
I can't hardly wait for an update on this! I'm really curious to see how FN/Winchester will treat you if you go that route. I have an interesting story about my experience with their service when I sent in a newly purchased rifle to Missouri for warranty work.
If you have confidence in your local gunsmith, and he has a 257 Roberts reamer , I'd suggest he cut a couple of threads off the chamber end and recut the chamber SQUARE TO THE BARREL ; then also recrown the muzzle. Then start working your loads up again.
I bought a Wichester M-70 in 300WSM back in 2001 and there was a problem, I had sent the rifle back to Winchester and they said it was fine. I suspected a crooked chamber. So I sent it to a Gunsmith in Texas, he got the rifle and called me, a very crooked chamber. So I had him do a barrel and a pillar bedding job. I got the rifle back shot it some, it's been a safe queen ever since. I really could not warm up to the 300 WSM. So I been thinking I should have that guy rebarrel it once again to 270 WSM like I should have in the first place. I had an 30-06 M-70 that I bought some time around 1995 that had a galled barrel. Shot fine, 4 shots of Federal 165 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws into 1.1 inches at 200 yards, but it would leave so much fouling in the barrel those 4 shots would take two days to get the bore clean. I had it rebarreled and well I sold it. I hand a M-70 feather weight that I bought back in 1982 it didn't shoot that well, a 7 x 57 and was told it's junk. I got a gunsmith to just do a bedding job on it and that did the trick 140 gr Nosler Partitions under a nickel for 4 shots. I killed a lot of deer and Elk with that one and a couple of moose. I gave it to a hunting guide as a tip. Winchester been well not what they were from 1960 on ward. USRA or FN its a crap shoot. Sad but that what it is. I bought a Sako 75 338 WM back in '95, I took a job in Alaska. I zeroed it in. And out side of checking zero before going hunting it still hits spot on @ 200 yards back in '95. I killed a lot of moose with the last one in 2010. Hunting moose alone is a youngmans thing. I was 55 the pack out damn near killed me. I think a sako or a tikka is a much better deal in a Factory rifle at a reasonable cost. I shoot a Sako in 6.5 x 55 for deer hunting these days. No BS issue either.
Once a barrel has been ruined either with too deep of rifling on one side or bad chambering; it's done. In the 1970s and 1980s, I worked for John Martz Luger carbine maker from Lincoln, CA and once he had a similar issue but, since he chambered his own barrels and had all the proper tools to complete the job correctly he then measured the barrel and found out of tolerance rifling on one side of the bore near the throat. He proved his position with the maker of the barrel with pictures and the barrel maker also saw the error so they replaced the barrel free of charge. Mr. Martz did not order or purchase any more barrels from the maker and switched companies as a result.
Sad to hear. The verdict, One bright side, you may have a one in a million collectable winchester for their mistake. Probably not, Winchester should make it right, since this unacceptable for such a fine rifle
One other point. My understanding is that all current BACO rifles feature CHF barrel that leave smooth (even glassy) bores. As the rifling is embossed as part of the hammering...there aren't any tool marks. It's the reason break-in's are passé.
#1 send to Winchester/Browning to rebarrel - will take 6 months to a year #2 have custom NEW barrel installed - will take about a month #3 rechamber to 257 AI easiest and quickest solution Good luck make a supplemental video with your choice and results
"Notorious online porn site" 'GUNBROKER' You're honor, Mr. Tom River is the guilty party. He caused my client to choke to death from suffocating on his own spittle during a fit of laughter. He should be given the chair!
Can’t believe the number of people that post something like “couldn’t get it to shoot, so I sold it,” or “it sprayed bullets everywhere, so I sent it down the road.” How many of those guys disclose the reason they are selling is that the gun is inaccurate? How many also want full price because it only has a couple boxes down the tube? Then someone else (like you) buys it, spends hours of frustration and many dollars in ammo, and lo and behold, it’s still an inaccurate rifle.
Steve I wouldn't ever sell a rifle that I couldn't get to shoot. Or at least I wouldn't sell it without telling the individual first and then if they wanted a challenge then that's on them. In this case I have no doubt the guy that sold it knew it had horrible accuracy but I'm also guessing he had no idea why? And I hope I don't sound too arrogant here but most of the time I can get a rifle to shoot when most can't and usually it's simple things like a bad scope or the stock touching the barrel. So normally I don't even worry about whether or not someone else could get a rifle to shoot, but this one was bear!
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I certainly wasn't referring to you. I'm impressed with how thoroughly you investigated this and found the problem. I just see that kind of comment posted and always am irritated that someone just passes a known problem on. Many years ago I bought a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in 7 X 57. I got it cheap because noone seemed to want that caliber. The trigger was an honest 14 pound pull. The forend was rubbing one side of the barrel. Groups with factory loads were around 4 inches. A local gunsmith improved the trigger (now kind of a creepy 5 pounds). I relieved the barrel channel and full glass bedded the action and barrel. Swapped out the cheap 4X Simmons scope for a Leopold 3 - 9 X 40. Load development got me consistently around 1.5 inch groups with most hunting bullets. I know it's not the magic "sub moa," but it's been effective for me for more than 25 years. Probably not going to change anything now.
@@stevej2120 Steve I bought a Remington 700 SPS Varmint with a 26 inch heavy barrel for about $250 and trade for a Stevens 200, 22 in barrel .223. The factory stock was garbage, and had a pillar that the barrel rests on out at the forend. Dang thing would not shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yds which I personally find unacceptable for a varmint rifle. So, I bought a Stocky's full length aluminum bedded M-50 stock (patterned after the M-40) completely free-floated, and put on a Timney Elite Hunter trigger (easy to install on a Model 700 because it's just a drop in with 2 pins) set at about 1.5-2 pounds. I think the highest pull weight is 4 lbs. Now it shoots 1/2 MOA. I only use 55 gr-60 gr bullets only because the twist rate is slow at 1 in 12. But it's good enough and a 1 inch, 5 shot group at 200 yards is great to see. While the new stock and trigger ran my cost up, I bought the accuracy, and the Remington XMark trigger. I could not adjust below 3 lbs sits in a drawer. It's a Varmint and bench gun so I don't worry about the light trigger. I could have gone ounces on a trigger and got.1/4 MOA groups probably with no wind. So, check out a timney trigger if you like. Remingtons are easier than my Savages.
Woke up this morning with this thought.......do not be surprised if FN/Winchester contacts you about this rifle. Feeling that someone in the corporate will hear about your problems and want to rectify to demonstrate their eagerness to solve the problem for a large public relations win for them...........
I feel your frustration. I have a Winchester winlite .338 win mag that won't group under 2.5 inches. Handloads, factory loads, barrel care and asking it please. I'm going to rebed it. If that does not work...new barrel. My "friends" kid me to man up and quit flinching. I can make my Winchester 3006 feather weight cut clover leafs. A I quote Townsed Whelan, "Only accurate rifles are interesting" Thanks Tom. Good job.
I have that very same rifle and suffered from accuracy problems. Long story short, after trying several other solutions, I recrowned the muzzle. With the first cut. I could see concentricity problems with the factory crown. The first two shots I put on paper afterwards went into the same hole(I actually thought I missed the paper on the second shot), with the third just outside. That rifle educated me on rifle tuning and bench technique more than any other I have ever worked on.
This is the second modern model 70 I've seen with a barrel issue. I bought a new M70 Featherweight in 2018 chambered for 7mm-08 and left the factory with an 11 3/4 twist barrel. Needles to say its accuracy was rather poor.
I, too, bought the exact same model, the same chambering, in 2021 and I never could get it to shoot consistent groups with several factory loads or with my handloads. It was the most beautiful rifle I will ever likely own, but I tired of its nonsense and put it on consignment at my local gun shop. Yes, I told them of my problems with it; I have no idea if they passed that information on to whoever bought it. I've heard stories from others about FN Model 70 rifles, some saying accuracy is excellent, others that it's horrid. A few weeks after the rifle sold at the gun shop, I saw it on the used rifle rack at Scheels. I knew it was the same gun by its serial number. It looks like the accuracy consistency problem wasn't me. I say send that sucker back and demand FN make it right. I wish I had taken my own advice because I really like the outward appearance and handy size of the carbine.
@@theoriginalDAL357 I spoke to a gentleman at winchester about mine. He told me I could send it in but if it shot 1.5 moa at the factory I would be charged to replace the barrel even though their website says the twist rate should be 1 in 9 1/2 so I sold that rifle.
@@roadrunner7828 With all of the accurate rifles for sale out there with a three-shot, one MOA guarantee, this attitude is at least a decade out of date. To me, it’s tantamount to a new sports car with a bum transmission. I will never buy another FN Winchester again, and I’ll steer everyone I can away from them. BTW, I bought a Weatherby Vanguard in 7-08 with the proceeds from the Winchester and, although it’s can’t be called pretty, and it’s not as handy with its 24-inch barrel, it will shoot consistent three-shot MOA groups.
Whatever happened to that model 70 .270 you was battling last year with accuracy issues too? I know you eventually found problems with the barrel on that gun but it hasn't been talked about since that video. The editing on this video was great, BTW. Hope you get a resolution.
I have been able to clean up the transition to the lands in the throat of two rifles by lapping carefully, at little at a time. Granted, the throats on my two rifles weren't this bad . . . then again, I don't think you could make the throat much worse on this rifle.
Just a suggestion...did you check the rifle crown? Seems a good reason for the loss of accuracy is poor crowning, perhaps not cut flat or if slightly countersunk, perhaps slightly off center.
"If you have been around so many dishonest people that you no longer trust anyone, you need to hang around with other people." This is why I love your channel.
Most of the population is not to be trusted. Honest people are hard to find.
@@robertwatson818 I'm sorry that you live in that world.
@@mikelong9638 Same world you live in. You can pretend thesis not so--but the fact of it remains. You are denying people are dishonest.
Can yu do a Kimber Walnut stock for me for a 6.5 Creedmore ,or refer me where..?
I love the .257, Use 100/ grain
Trusting the wrong people in my line of work will get you killed. I learned a long time ago to not trust anyone you dont know and be wary of those you do.
Tom, please return that rifle to FN. I am a retired lifelong machinist, manufacturing engineer, and quality manager. Your rifle's chamber is not concentric with the rifle bore. I had this myself on a Taurus 9mm. An aftermarket barrel took care of it. There is no fixing that barrel. At this point you can return it to FN and they should take care of it. If they don't, that will send a message to the rest of us longtime Model 70 owners. I had looked forward to buying one last Model 70 Super Grade after purchasing Model 70's since my first one in 225 Winchester a half century ago. But I don't want anything to do with them if that is typical of FN quality these days. It's bad enough they let one get out the door like that, but if they don't do you right, it's unforgivable.
So, you see, you have to send it back, for all of us to know. I would suggest making some tiny mark on the barrel on an inconspicuous spot concealed by the stock, then returning it. You'll know if they changed the barrel then. Otherwise they may run a throating reamer in, and then you will have a throat concentric to the bore, but not with your chamber. It will look like it is fixed, but won't be. God bless and keep up the great videos!
Glen i agree with you 100%,we will be waiting what they got to say and good luck TOM.
I put some thought into this and you're absolutely right. That would account for the uneven start to the rifling at the throat of the bore. Kudos to you. BTW, I have the same working background as a 45 year experienced machinist, also now retired.
Tom, many years ago I bought a Winchester 70xtr in .257 Roberts with a absolutely exquisite piece of wood on it. Uncommon to say the least. I was so thrilled to have found this very uncommon beauty in the rare 257 chambering, I was beside myself. What a trophy!! Until I shot the rifle. My God, this thing threw bullets from one side of the target to the other. Didn't matter what it was fed, it puked everything. I was sick!! To shorten the story I complained to Winchester about the gun and they actually took it back and rebarreled it in New Haven. This fixed the issue and the rifle has been perfect ever since. My original 257 was still a classic original. My suggestion to you is no matter what, even if you must beg, borrow, or steal to get it done, see if there is not some way to get FN to rebarrel this rifle in their facility. It's a classic, very rare and worth the effort.
One other note, this was not the first M-70 I have owned that really did not perform well. Thats why at this point, and just a personal thing, beautiful as they are, the last on my list for purchase if I want a troublefree rifle that shoots. Good luck!!
Set the barrel back one thread and recut the chamber. Problem solved. Great video thanks for the information.
Congrats on your detective work. Did this to myself on my first threading and chambering job. I left a burr at the end of the throat and wasted some ammo before I figured it out. If your gunsmith's reamer has a little longer throat it will fix the problem. Maybe even do a Ackley chamber if he has that reamer. What FN did is start the chamber with drill bits and cleaned it up with a boring bar before using the reamer, all on a CNC machine. They do this to save reamers. But if the CNC is not homed correct it will be off center enough that the reamer can't fix it.
Good call. I'm a CNC man. Somebody got tired at work it appears to me.
Tom. Thank you for the great video. On my new Winchester Model 70 30-06, the bore has even and symmetric grooves. However, I too had problems with accuracy with similar horizontal POI shifts. I tried all sorts of factory loads from about 8-10 manufacturers. I was about to give up on this Model 70. I found the problem was a lack of sufficient bedding of the action. I bedded the recoil lug and rear tang, and this solved my accuracy problems. Good luck and don't give up hope.
Tom, I figured the patient and stubborn part out but I'm even worse. My fix for that beautiful rifle is 257AI improved with a long throat. I have thourally enjoyed the series..Will be watching for the strong finish!!!!
I just recently picked up a REM 722 in 257 Roberts. Built in 1956. Rifle is in great shape. Haven't shot it yet. I measured the barrel with a cleaning rod to the bolt face and only get 20.5". This really handicaps this round even more on velocity. From what I can see, they only made 22" and 24" barrels. I am wondering if someone cut it down, because it looked to me like the but stock was shortened then lengthened with some spacers and a recoil pad. Gonna shoot it for sure first, but now considering having a new barrel made for it at 24". Then I started thinking, why not the 257 AI? You can still find the Roberts and +p ammo at gun shows and online, but the AI, not sure that would be available. I got 70 rounds of ammo with this rifle for $350.
It might be a simple process to return the barreled action to Winchester. I would expect they would likely replace the barrel with another. The repair and warranty department likely has highly skilled personnel that would be the best ones to address the the issue.
Having it sitting in your gun case will only make you more unhappy with your discovery. It also would take less time and money. You have plenty of other good rifles to use this season. 🤞👍
Gizmo, that's probably what I'm going to end up doing just to see how they handle it.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving That's what I would do.
You have nothing to lose by doing it, and if the result isn't satisfactory and your heart is still set on this Winchester, you could invest in getting it rebarreled, either in .257 Roberts or another caliber, easier if you stick to the same case head size, of course.
As it happens, the .257 Roberts has the exact same case head size as the .308 Winchester, the .30-06 and all of the cartridges derived from the venerable '06, and the parent case for the .257 Roberts, the 7x57mm Mauser.
Tom, thanks for this great series. Iv’e learned a few things along the way, as well as being entertained. One thing to consider, if you send it back to the manufacturer, you will be bringing a problem to their attention & give them a chance to make it right & instill confidence in them for others thinking about buying one of their rifles. If they handle it poorly, that would also be a public service to other potential customers , & then you can decide what to do after that. At the least, send them a video or photos or some documentation that points out the defect. Just a thought & keep up the great work!
Tom great video and technical info. I had same issue on a 243 featherweight. Horrible and inconsistent accuracy would not shoot any bullet from 70 - 100 grain to a decent group. After inspection of bore lands were inconsistent as well. I ordered a #4 Shilen barrel 8” twist and sent to my gunsmith barrel cut at 24” with target crown, pillar bed stock, glass bed action and free floating barrel. Results were excellent shooting extremely well consistent sub 1/2” groups @100 yds with first load I tried with 95 grain Berger bullets! I agree winchester featherweight rifles are beautiful but I have not worked on a featherweight that is accurate out of the box! Someone down the line dropping the ball not delivering accurate rifles for customers.
I do have to wonder how many they've made like this?
I wonder too but I suspect there is quite a bit out there with same problem.
I am sorry this rifle is flawed. Glad you figured it out but it is a serious flaw. I think your best option is to send it to FN. They are the best qualified to make it right. I suspect it needs a new barrel, but I am no expert. Let FN determine what needs to be done. TY MH
i bought this same rifle about 25 yrs ago -model 70 xtr featherweight in 257 roberts -every time the weather changed so would point of impact-took it to a well known gunsmith and he glass bedded stock and free floated barrel-always hand loaded ammo and she shoots like a dream ever since
Excellent series on this rifle and troubleshooting the issue. I've got a .257 Roberts built on a Mauser that looks good on the outside but under the hood whomever built it was bad. She's had vertical stringing to the tune of 13". Among the problems I've addressed and the main culprit was a loose freaking barrel. I've got it down to about 2-3 inches and fingers crossed when I get back to it this coming summer some further load development will fully resolve the stringing.
On the ammo department I got lucky and the shop I found the rifle at had 8 bags of 7mm Mauser range brass and upon a closer look there was brand new Winchester brass mixed in. Bought em all and ended up with 248 new cases to size down and fire form plus hundreds of mixed brass to use over time.
A loose barrel would certainly be an issue! Good luck on dialing it in this summer and thankfully you have some brass to work with.
Thanks Tom, I've enjoyed following along on this project. Personally I know what I'd do, but it is likely not what you'd want to do. I'd have that barrel removed and replaced with and ER Shaw custom in 257 Roberts. I know it isn't the original, but I am all about getting this thing up and running. The Shaw barrel looks to be about $200 then some more for the gun smith, but after that you'll have a great shooting and great looking rifle. I guess it comes from putting together the Mausers that I have. I never looked at them as restorations, but modifications to create shooters for the field. Anyway, good luck and yes deer season is upon us. It's time to get in the woods.
Mr. Tom, you are the definition of “wherewithal”. That was excellent any This ol’ knucklehead learned several things about rifle accuracy.
Looking forward to seeing Joey’s .270 WSM!
I bought a used 7X57 Mauser Model 70 Feartherweght the other day. When I picked it up, I inspected the bore. It was plenty fouled. Well, I followed a lot of tips gleaned from your recent episode cleaning your .257 Roberts. The bore is super duper shiny! I installed a rifle scope this afternoon. The Loctite is curing and then I will take it to the range and sight it in with some PPU 139 grain ammo. I finished off the cleaning with my bore snake! Boy, that took some muscle🥴. I ain't as young as I used to be. But, if the darn bore snakes were shorter, I'd have better leverage!
i stopped the video at 35sec because I was laughing out loud. I love this guy! What a joy you are, Tom. Please keep doing all you do. Faithful subscriber here, I watch and enjoy. God bless, And have a great day!
Very interesting on the verdict. Could you not shorten the barrel 1/2" off of the chamber end and have it re-chamered in 257 roberts again? I feel like that would be a good excuse to also get a longer throat for the rifle to be able to seat the 120 grainers out further like you mentioned the fellow at the range did. Good luck this deer season!
Not that easy especially on a featherweight contour and with an extractor cut, plus most factory guns have an undercut between shoulder and threads so after "chasing" threads, you'd have a gap of about two threads.
I think just two full threads would be enough the rechamber and get the lands centered...
Hey Tom. First video of yours I've seen, really enjoyed it. I once worked on a beautiful Parker Hale .243 that did almost the exact same thing. Cured it by doing a "one shot, then clean" routine for 20 rounds. Excellent accuracy afterwards. Thanks again for fun video.
I agree whole heartily about the 30/06 over. 308. Also the .260 remington. I'm older now and like the lower recoil.
Tom, I'm commenting for a second time, which is highly unusual for me. My 257 Roberts was in a Remington 700 Classic. It had been neglected. Bolt handle was rusted, the safety was so rusty as well as the trigger. Yet it still shot sub moa. Townsend Whelen said as you well know that only accurate rifles are interesting. Please send that rifle back to FN and let them make it into an interesting rifle, instead of the terrible disappointment it is.
Good video! My dad had a problem similar to yours. many years ago my dad acquired a Geco in 220 Swift. The man that gave it to my dad was a Quaker preacher and he told my dad that it was not accurate. My dad being a machinist and worked on many rifles and pistols in his shop was determined to resolve the problem. After doing everything he could think of the problem was still with the rifle. He decided to recrown it thinking it was a waste of time. When he took the rifle to the range it shot one bullet on top of one another at a 100 YD. it wound up being one of the most accurate rifles he had. Never give up is a good motto for all of us!
Tom this too bad! But I have watched many other videos featuring the FN built M70 in which the owner of the gun had amazing accuracy without doing a thing to it. I’ve also worked with my brother on his FN built M70 and it is very accurate across a wide range different loads. I think you’re correct in your investigation but I do think they would stand behind it and fix it. That would be the route I’d go, I bet you’d be happy.
Great video Tom !!!! I have two Remington 257 Roberts rifles that I have labored with over the past two years and have found them to be very load sensitive. The first is a 700 Classic Long Action with a 24 inch barrel and what appears to be a shade over 1:10 twist. It has become a tack driver with 87 and 100 grain sierra bullets, IMR 4350 and long seating ..... I have tried many heavier bullets and they are just never going to work. Meanwhile my 700 Long Action Mountain rifle with a light 22 inch barrel, 1:9 twist, worked well with the same 87 Grain and 100 grain loads but again poorly with 117 grain loads . I Found salvation with Sierra 110 gain Gamechangers, H4350 powder and long seating. Amazing 1/2 MOA. I know thats a completely different set of issues than the one you were investigating so nicely ..... but I thought I'd pass along my experience for anyone who is chasing 257 Roberts accuracy issues and looks at your wonderful video.
I have a Hawkeye borescope and have looked a a lot of factory chambers, no black swan here, it is a very clear and present problem in many factory guns. I believe because of high production, they have to use a pilot on the reamer that is much smaller than bore diameter and can cause straight throat issues, also, most production chambers are cut in two to three steps. Have you ever noticed that on a blued Remington 700 chamber the shoulder isn't blued, or the eagle talons left from cutting the belt on a magnum causing scratches on brass or extraction issues. I recently had a Win. Model 70 Classic in 7 STW in the shop at the same time I was building a custom 7 STW. Come to find out the factory Winchester chamber, though it headspaced perfectly, has a shoulder that was cut .020, yes 20 thousandths, longer than SAAMI spec.. So, factory chambers and depending on how some custom builders hold their reamers or how perfectly fit the pilot on reamer is, the chamber will have a lopsided throat/lead.
Hey Tom, you did a great job of troubleshooting and diagnosing the problem. My first thought was that FN may have used an old, worn out reamer to make the chamber. I never considered the possibility of the chamber being off center, you may be right about that. Or it could be that they used a floating reamer to cut the chamber then just messed up cutting the throat afterwards. A chamber casting might help to sort it out. One possible solution you might consider is to rent a throating reamer just to clean up the lands. Another possible solution is to rechamber to an Improved 257, but that is another can of worms. Its a shame they messed up such a nice rifle. Good luck with it.
Spot on with the chamber cast idea 👏👏
Robert
( FN fan, Sydney Australia)
Completely agree this black swan was/is a great project! I, too, learned from this rifle. I wasn’t too familiar with lands starting unequally, either. Like you, I realized machining issues can and do occur in that area in the form of tolerances etc., but not necessarily this unequally with lands. And, very clever way to put this week’s video out. JMHO, it would be neat to see you eventually get a new barrel put on with a 1/9 twist, like the gentleman at the range. Have a great week!
Tom this is a warranty issue. While you have the opportunity; return the rifle to FN, retain the value of the firearm.
Love a mystery! But who is going to pay for this great mistake! I would give FN a chance to fix it and if not it’s time for a new barrel in a 257 Robert’s!
I once saw a 7x57 featherweight. Wish I had been able to buy that one. Real slick rifle.
Everybody needs a project, and some project force you to learn...and learn you have. The good news, is you have options, from rechambering to barreling..your trip with this rife forced me to do a lot of reading, mostly about the caliber..and from my reading { I have never owned a .257 or any of the smaller calibers for that matter} It would seem a .257 is a difficult cartridge to get to shoot accurately. Again that's just from reading mostly on forums about the caliber. But, like you, I have learned a lot, and really enjoyed learning about the caliber. A great project, with great videos, and a wonderful learning opportunity. Having said that, if it were me, I would make it a 25/06 and never look back....but that's just an old guy who loves anything derived from the 30.06...God Bless and thanks for the education.
243 Winchester can be a finicky cartridge as well. Sometimes the physics is just challenging. And I too am a big fan of the 25-06.
It might be possible for a gunsmith to turn the barrel down one full thread and re-chamber it that much deeper for the same cartridge... that was P. O. Ackley's method for re-chambering rifles for his improved cartridges, if I'm not mistaken.
Tom I would say that if you old closely check some of your fire formed brass you will find that the chamber is not parallel with the bore or bolt. The case head will possibly have some runout if uou check it with a dial indicator. Just another thought, happy hunting!!!
I thought the same thing. If he had a true flat surface could he stand fire formed brass in a group then even just eyeball which are leaning? Rotating the leaning ones should change the direction they lean. And I'm thinking if he ran a runout gauge he'd find the bodies offcenter and the case heads out of square. If it was my rifle, I'd replace the barrel with a quality .257 Roberts chambered highly polished and blued barrel. Or maybe someone's got a pulled .257 Roberts FN-Win barrel for sale. I can see plenty being rebarreled to more common calibers by 2nd owners.
Lol this Halloween background music playing had me laughing
Thank you Tom. I have just discovered your clips and can appreciate your patience concerning rifle problems. I'd say at a guess you have it shooting just fine by now and I shall be looking out for the end results.
Tom if your not going to do anything to the rifle for 3 month’s or more might as well send it in. For nothing else but so we all will know if browning will stand behind the Winchester product. But what I would do is send the barreled action to pac-nor and have them put a Mach grade barrel with a faster twist so you can shoot the heavy bullets. They can Mach the factory contour too. I had them put a 6.5x55 Swede barrel on a howa 1500 action for me. I bedded it in a Boyd’s stock and it will shoot 3/8 in. This was about ten year’s ago and it is what I take for deer every year. I never think about what it cost because I love the rifle and it is exactly what I wanted. Every time you take it to the range and shoot it and see that clover leaf you will be happy you did it. Just think of it as you bought a beautiful action and stock so you can make the rifle you always wanted. Thanks for the videos and can’t wait to see what you decide to do.be safe and live free
If it belonged to me, I'd set the barrel back by one thread and recut the chamber. That should solve the problem. An easy fix.
Send it in. That way we can see how well their customer service is.
The original 257 Roberts I bought was a m77 Ruger with tang safety. It would only shoot 115g nosler bt bullets, nothing else that I tried would group. I traded it and bought another Ruger 77 Hawkeye that shot great, then got a win m70 super grade Cabela's special. It shoots nice tight groups. So I traded the Hawkeye for a different rifle. Now I wish I hadn't since I like the Ruger 77.
11:43 in to the video. The only explaination is the chamber was reamed eccentrically to the bore axis. I suspected it earlier, but the borescope footage confirmed it.
I will be watching this to see what FN does because I have bought hundreds of model 70’s mostly used over my 60 years of hunting and collecting and this is very concerning and mostly to see what they do! I have a friend who is a pistol collector and bought a new pistol and it had a problem just not the same as yours but they called him back and accused him of missing with it to try to not cover it under warranty and he bring a nice guy got it back and being a retired machinist fixed it himself but in doing so I will never buy a gun new or used from that brand and I am putting the word out to the hundreds of people I see about what they did to him! Give FN a chance because I am dying to see that happens my friend
Edward, that's probably what I'm going to do just to see how they handle it?
This is by far the best video on UA-cam. Ever.
I enjoyed watching someone else figure out a mystery. I have on a Remington 7400. 270. I had a few issues to deal with but now i know. Shoots sub moa w handloads.
Great presentation 👍🏾
Excellent detective job. Good work on the creative intro. Please continue with the 257 bob
A regular gun super sleuth you are Tom! I would send it back to the factory for a new barrel. You've got time.
You could have a gunsmith knock a thread off the barrel, setting the chamber back. Then cut a new .257 Roberts chamber.
A coworker I knew about 40 years ago, was always bragging about his .257 Roberts. I always thought about buying a .257 Roberts, but I don't see any rifle chambered in the cartridge -- even used.
Thanks for sharing your videos and keep them coming please.
Almost looks like a chip got wedged on one side in the free bore at the last turn or two just before the reamer was pulled out. I think it could be cleaned up by a good gunsmith - I would go that route that first. Good luck Tom, nice rifle though!
Hello Tom, I really enjoyed your forensic theme “incl the music”, lol. I’m glad you feel you have this issue nailed down. What you said makes sense to me about the wobble of projectile entry causing variation in non repeatable seating depth measurements, and the wobble causing blow-bye causing extreme copper fowling seems plausible. Question is, can the rifling be recut to end up evenly at chamber, or is it cut on an angle not making this possible? Realizing a barrel replacement would be a costly endeavor, this might be the only solution? If this be the case, wouldn’t it sure be nice to have a new barrel cut with a bit faster twist, “if you end up here?” Good luck my friend, please keep us in the loop. God bless 😎👍
Send it in. You may get it back in time for next season!
I had issues with my model 70 in .338 Winchester. I polished the bore with polishing paper, bedded the stock and it still shot 4 inch groups. I sent it off to Ice Age and had the barreled action cryo frozen. Groups shrank to 1.1 inch. At 100.
Now that is interesting! I would have never guessed that would have made that much of a difference.
Many years ago I bought a similar model 70 XTR FWT in .243 new in box at a store closing auction. Beautiful rifle with horrible accuracy. One gunsmith had it and tried unsuccessfully to fix it. Another gunsmith I talked to told me to take the action out and remount it with very little torque on the front screw after tensioning carefully back to front. He never even saw the rifle but it fixed the problem and it has shot great for almost 40 years since. I thought for awhile you were going to find the same issue
It seems I have another issue with this one, but I will sure keep that in mind because I also have an XTR Featherweight and I have noticed that it has a pressure point in the forend of the stock. So I can see to where that could make a big difference on accuracy. Thanks for sharing that!
I have the Remington 700 classic in 257 Roberts, bought new in 83. I love it.
I pulled the barrel off mine and replaced it after alot of similar issues. I just borescoped the old barrel out of curiosity and I can see the lands not quite even with each other. Not as bad as yours though.
The lands might not be the same height and will never ream to be even in the throat. Some barrels just dont have good lands and groove height from manufacturing.
I'd strongly consider replacing the barrel
the only model 70 i had was from the usmc in .30-06 , from the womens unit ,it had thousands and thousands of rounds through it ,and was quite shot out. Get my barrels at numrich ,as they are the best deal.though id try a hallow base lead one in it just to see. GREAT VIDEO !!!
I'd re chamber the rifle to. 257 Robert's Ackley improved. Hopefully with the chamber being reamed it should correct some of those issues, also have them blue print the action too.
Also as a note, if you don't want to be disappointed with your factory throat or barrel, by all means don't look in there ;-)
Also being uneven, if its been cleaned alot or oiled being a chrome moly if the individual cleaning the rifle doesnt use a bore guide then the cleaning rod can actually cause the damage you are seeing which is a high possibility given that there is no real defined start to the rifling as well. And it is usually at 6 or 12 o'clock due to how the rod bends and people use them. Worth a thought
Wow Tom, I bought a brand new FN Win M70, in 7mm 08. It was a beautiful rifle, I just loved it. It did not shoot well. I did get a deer with it (60 yards) but the best group I got out of it was 1.25 inch off the bench. Many more times it gave me 5 inch groups. It did shoot better with 150 grain ammo. It did not like lighter bullets. They would not be on paper. For a long time, I thought it was me. I kept tinkering. I saw a used Marlin, a JM 336 in 30 30, and spontaneously bought it. It gave 1.25 groups. But it gave 1.25 groups all the time, with whatever I put in it. It is a real good off hand rifle as well. So I sold the Winchester. Problem solved!
Awe man, Tom. That's a bummer. I hope FN will work with you on this. I haven't ever had to deal with their customer service, but then I haven't had any issues, let alone something this bad with any of my FN weapons.
I have a early FN model 70 in .270 with the exact same problem. I considered putting a new barrel on it but so far it’s just become a dust collector
Send it back to FN
@@darrelljones3382 I bought it used. Not sure they’d take it. It’s about 10 years old
@@beardg304
What kind of warranty does FN have then. Probably wouldn't hurt if you contacted them and see what they say?
Thanks partner. You broke it down to the stacking swivel. Good job.
I'm in the same boat your in with a remington 700 in 7mm remington magnum accuracy finally figured out my scope rings were no good scope was sliding in the rings and turned to the right and deer season starts this Saturday for us in florida and I don't have time to fool with it anymore right now
Remington went through a similar issue with the 1187 model shot gun. In the first year of production it was common to have a barrel with the chokes installed off center---either offset to one side or at an angle. This left a ridge at the back of the choke which was then pounded by the shot charge. Eventually it caused the choke to break in half with a section of it going out the end of the barrel. This happened to me during a sporting clays match. Suddenly I could not hit anything--even straight away targets. It was only some months later I discovered the damage. Remington would not make good on the barrel.
Tom, this is the first Model 70 I’ve ever heard of that wasn’t accurate as could be. I had one of these SC/FN 257’s and it was a 3 shots under a quarter at a 100yds, totally a dream.
I’m gob-smacked about seeing a Model 70 that isn’t a tack driver, wow!
I hope you’ve decided to keep it as a 257 Roberts.
Take care and be well!
Well, I would say that this 257 Roberts Project has been so far a success. Sure, the gun isn't where you want it to be at, but it has taught all of us more about developing sub-moa loads for a rifle than I think all of us thought we were going to learn.
Anyways, it will be interesting to see what route you decide to take and how it all turns out.
Thanks Trapdoor, and I certainly got into more than I thought I would on this one but I sure learned more than I thought I would as well.
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving You are welcome! Your story on trusting the seller reminds me of a story I heard on Guns and Ammo TV. That show does a segment on older firearms, and one of their historic firearms experts is Garry James. He was discussing a civilian model Colt 1911 that he purchased decades ago that dated around 1915 - 1916. At the time the seller had told him that the gun was used in World War I. Well, Garry being an expert knew that the date preceded America's entry into the war, and that it was also the civilian model caused him to not really buy the story. But he liked the gun and bought it at what he considered to be a fair price. Later on he contacted Colt for one of their archive letters and it came back showing that the story the seller had told him was true. The gun that he didn't think was used in World War I actually was, but by the French Army. What happened is that the French bought in 1915 - 1916 the civilian model Colt 1911's for military use. There are no special markings on these guns and only a Colt factory letter can prove if the gun was purchased by the French military.
I really hope they take care of you . It's a beautiful rifle
I bought one the same as yours same caliber as well. It never shot any better than yours brand new. Beautiful rifle but I had no confidence in it
Well, I have to have more range trips with the 7X57 F. W.. I have no borescope, and would hate to think I may have the same problem. Right now I'm glad I have no bore scope to find out. Hope you get the problem resolved.
People who mistrust and assume the worst of others are often untrustworthy themselves. Once again, nice video (hunkering down near the fire during a blizzard in Bruce County Ontario)
Interesting. I recall, years ago Browning had problems with the FN barrels on their Safari model rifles. Some of those rifles just wouldn't shoot worth a darn.
257 roberts Ruger, traded it for a colt 1861 , but got me thinkin on the 264 winchester magnum, legendary goat gun. I must look up that rate of twist between the ruger and the chesterwin. Nosler boat tails.
Hello Tom , its Danie youre old youtube friend from South Africa, hope you remember me .This was one of the best composed videos ive seen to date , youre cool and calm way with the light touch of humor , its absolutely ninja. Now i i dont know if im to asumptiou's if i say i know youre dark side (gun porn side ) .
Bullet point format in what it is that i believe you love about this rifle.
•light weight.
•Caliber
• its a Winchester ! ( a lemon )
• the most important thing - the wood !
So my solution would be take the Rifle to a TRUSTED! gun smith and have them re barrel the rifle , this way you can keep every thing that you love about this Rifle and have it function superbly .
Some would say the can shorten that barrel slightly from the rear but in my experience if the chaimber is not true with the bore the even if you cut about 40 mm from the rear and re chaimber it, the reamer wil most of the times follow that old path and youle be back to square one .
do you own a lathe tom ?
I can't hardly wait for an update on this! I'm really curious to see how FN/Winchester will treat you if you go that route. I have an interesting story about my experience with their service when I sent in a newly purchased rifle to Missouri for warranty work.
If you have confidence in your local gunsmith, and he has a 257 Roberts reamer , I'd suggest he cut a couple of threads off the chamber end and recut the chamber SQUARE TO THE BARREL ; then also recrown the muzzle. Then start working your loads up again.
I bought a Wichester M-70 in 300WSM back in 2001 and there was a problem, I had sent the rifle back to Winchester and they said it was fine. I suspected a crooked chamber. So I sent it to a Gunsmith in Texas, he got the rifle and called me, a very crooked chamber. So I had him do a barrel and a pillar bedding job. I got the rifle back shot it some, it's been a safe queen ever since. I really could not warm up to the 300 WSM. So I been thinking I should have that guy rebarrel it once again to 270 WSM like I should have in the first place. I had an 30-06 M-70 that I bought some time around 1995 that had a galled barrel. Shot fine, 4 shots of Federal 165 gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws into 1.1 inches at 200 yards, but it would leave so much fouling in the barrel those 4 shots would take two days to get the bore clean. I had it rebarreled and well I sold it. I hand a M-70 feather weight that I bought back in 1982 it didn't shoot that well, a 7 x 57 and was told it's junk. I got a gunsmith to just do a bedding job on it and that did the trick 140 gr Nosler Partitions under a nickel for 4 shots. I killed a lot of deer and Elk with that one and a couple of moose. I gave it to a hunting guide as a tip. Winchester been well not what they were from 1960 on ward. USRA or FN its a crap shoot. Sad but that what it is. I bought a Sako 75 338 WM back in '95, I took a job in Alaska. I zeroed it in. And out side of checking zero before going hunting it still hits spot on @ 200 yards back in '95. I killed a lot of moose with the last one in 2010. Hunting moose alone is a youngmans thing. I was 55 the pack out damn near killed me. I think a sako or a tikka is a much better deal in a Factory rifle at a reasonable cost. I shoot a Sako in 6.5 x 55 for deer hunting these days. No BS issue either.
I sent a model 70 in 300 WSM to Hart and they blueprinted the action and installed a heavy sported barrel. The thing shoots lights out!
Once a barrel has been ruined either with too deep of rifling on one side or bad chambering; it's done. In the 1970s and 1980s, I worked for John Martz Luger carbine maker from Lincoln, CA and once he had a similar issue but, since he chambered his own barrels and had all the proper tools to complete the job correctly he then measured the barrel and found out of tolerance rifling on one side of the bore near the throat. He proved his position with the maker of the barrel with pictures and the barrel maker also saw the error so they replaced the barrel free of charge. Mr. Martz did not order or purchase any more barrels from the maker and switched companies as a result.
There's a lot of really good barrel makers out there who'll cut any profile you want.
Good work Sir,Hope you have good luck with your rifle
Sad to hear. The verdict,
One bright side, you may have a one in a million collectable winchester for their mistake. Probably not, Winchester should make it right, since this unacceptable for such a fine rifle
One other point.
My understanding is that all current BACO rifles feature CHF barrel that leave smooth (even glassy) bores.
As the rifling is embossed as part of the hammering...there aren't any tool marks.
It's the reason break-in's are passé.
#1 send to Winchester/Browning to rebarrel - will take 6 months to a year #2 have custom NEW barrel installed - will take about a month #3 rechamber to 257 AI easiest and quickest solution Good luck make a supplemental video with your choice and results
"Notorious online porn site"
'GUNBROKER'
You're honor, Mr. Tom River is the guilty party. He caused my client to choke to death from suffocating on his own spittle during a fit of laughter. He should be given the chair!
LOL
Can’t believe the number of people that post something like “couldn’t get it to shoot, so I sold it,” or “it sprayed bullets everywhere, so I sent it down the road.” How many of those guys disclose the reason they are selling is that the gun is inaccurate? How many also want full price because it only has a couple boxes down the tube? Then someone else (like you) buys it, spends hours of frustration and many dollars in ammo, and lo and behold, it’s still an inaccurate rifle.
Steve I wouldn't ever sell a rifle that I couldn't get to shoot. Or at least I wouldn't sell it without telling the individual first and then if they wanted a challenge then that's on them. In this case I have no doubt the guy that sold it knew it had horrible accuracy but I'm also guessing he had no idea why? And I hope I don't sound too arrogant here but most of the time I can get a rifle to shoot when most can't and usually it's simple things like a bad scope or the stock touching the barrel. So normally I don't even worry about whether or not someone else could get a rifle to shoot, but this one was bear!
@@TomRiverSimpleLiving I certainly wasn't referring to you. I'm impressed with how thoroughly you investigated this and found the problem. I just see that kind of comment posted and always am irritated that someone just passes a known problem on. Many years ago I bought a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in 7 X 57. I got it cheap because noone seemed to want that caliber. The trigger was an honest 14 pound pull. The forend was rubbing one side of the barrel. Groups with factory loads were around 4 inches. A local gunsmith improved the trigger (now kind of a creepy 5 pounds). I relieved the barrel channel and full glass bedded the action and barrel. Swapped out the cheap 4X Simmons scope for a Leopold 3 - 9 X 40. Load development got me consistently around 1.5 inch groups with most hunting bullets. I know it's not the magic "sub moa," but it's been effective for me for more than 25 years. Probably not going to change anything now.
@@stevej2120 Steve I bought a Remington 700 SPS Varmint with a 26 inch heavy barrel for about $250 and trade for a Stevens 200, 22 in barrel .223. The factory stock was garbage, and had a pillar that the barrel rests on out at the forend. Dang thing would not shoot a 1 inch group at 100 yds which I personally find unacceptable for a varmint rifle. So, I bought a Stocky's full length aluminum bedded M-50 stock (patterned after the M-40) completely free-floated, and put on a Timney Elite Hunter trigger (easy to install on a Model 700 because it's just a drop in with 2 pins) set at about 1.5-2 pounds. I think the highest pull weight is 4 lbs. Now it shoots 1/2 MOA. I only use 55 gr-60 gr bullets only because the twist rate is slow at 1 in 12. But it's good enough and a 1 inch, 5 shot group at 200 yards is great to see. While the new stock and trigger ran my cost up, I bought the accuracy, and the Remington XMark trigger. I could not adjust below 3 lbs sits in a drawer. It's a Varmint and bench gun so I don't worry about the light trigger. I could have gone ounces on a trigger and got.1/4 MOA groups probably with no wind. So, check out a timney trigger if you like. Remingtons are easier than my Savages.
Woke up this morning with this thought.......do not be surprised if FN/Winchester contacts you about this rifle. Feeling that someone in the corporate will hear about your problems and want to rectify to demonstrate their eagerness to solve the problem for a large public relations win for them...........
I feel your frustration. I have a Winchester winlite .338 win mag that won't group under 2.5 inches. Handloads, factory loads, barrel care and asking it please. I'm going to rebed it. If that does not work...new barrel. My "friends" kid me to man up and quit flinching. I can make my Winchester 3006 feather weight cut clover leafs. A I quote Townsed Whelan, "Only accurate rifles are interesting" Thanks Tom. Good job.
I have that very same rifle and suffered from accuracy problems. Long story short, after trying several other solutions, I recrowned the muzzle. With the first cut. I could see concentricity problems with the factory crown. The first two shots I put on paper afterwards went into the same hole(I actually thought I missed the paper on the second shot), with the third just outside. That rifle educated me on rifle tuning and bench technique more than any other I have ever worked on.
This is the second modern model 70 I've seen with a barrel issue. I bought a new M70 Featherweight in 2018 chambered for 7mm-08 and left the factory with an 11 3/4 twist barrel. Needles to say its accuracy was rather poor.
I, too, bought the exact same model, the same chambering, in 2021 and I never could get it to shoot consistent groups with several factory loads or with my handloads. It was the most beautiful rifle I will ever likely own, but I tired of its nonsense and put it on consignment at my local gun shop. Yes, I told them of my problems with it; I have no idea if they passed that information on to whoever bought it. I've heard stories from others about FN Model 70 rifles, some saying accuracy is excellent, others that it's horrid.
A few weeks after the rifle sold at the gun shop, I saw it on the used rifle rack at Scheels. I knew it was the same gun by its serial number. It looks like the accuracy consistency problem wasn't me.
I say send that sucker back and demand FN make it right. I wish I had taken my own advice because I really like the outward appearance and handy size of the carbine.
@@theoriginalDAL357 I spoke to a gentleman at winchester about mine. He told me I could send it in but if it shot 1.5 moa at the factory I would be charged to replace the barrel even though their website says the twist rate should be 1 in 9 1/2 so I sold that rifle.
@@roadrunner7828 With all of the accurate rifles for sale out there with a three-shot, one MOA guarantee, this attitude is at least a decade out of date. To me, it’s tantamount to a new sports car with a bum transmission.
I will never buy another FN Winchester again, and I’ll steer everyone I can away from them.
BTW, I bought a Weatherby Vanguard in 7-08 with the proceeds from the Winchester and, although it’s can’t be called pretty, and it’s not as handy with its 24-inch barrel, it will shoot consistent three-shot MOA groups.
Well done. That beginning of the video was fun.
Whatever happened to that model 70 .270 you was battling last year with accuracy issues too? I know you eventually found problems with the barrel on that gun but it hasn't been talked about since that video. The editing on this video was great, BTW. Hope you get a resolution.
I have been able to clean up the transition to the lands in the throat of two rifles by lapping carefully, at little at a time. Granted, the throats on my two rifles weren't this bad . . . then again, I don't think you could make the throat much worse on this rifle.
What! An opportunity to put on a new barrel!!!
Cool beans.
😋
Good job Matlock....
Just a suggestion...did you check the rifle crown? Seems a good reason for the loss of accuracy is poor crowning, perhaps not cut flat or if slightly countersunk, perhaps slightly off center.
I had a M70 Featherweight in 280. Bought new. Best i ever got was baseball size groups. Sad, because they are beautiful rifles. it was pre F&N
I'd let my Smith check it if they're able and see if the chamber is square to the bore