When I joined the Church, my non LDS family rejected me. So being separate from my family was their choice. I chose Christ. ‘If you do not leave father, mother, brother, sister to follow me, you are not my disciple.” In the end, Christ is singular important. The eternal constant. So, I do not care if I do not see my family. Once you really fall madly in love with Christ, no one else matters. Love is fulfilled by Christ. Not by mortals. Once you master that order of relationships, then human relations are not important. Life is too short to stay emotionally or spiritually tethered to those who do not add to your happiness or eternal goals. Am happy to share what I have learned through conversion and aloneness in the gospel.
Thanks for what you have said. My wife and I had 6 children, all raised in the church. Now my first 4 have left the church, the 5th is also going in that direction and my 6th. This has been a very difficult and sad situation for my wife and I. The worst part about this for us, besides the possibility of not being able to be with our kids beyond this life, is that some of them have become extremely mean spirit and the constant attack on our believes have been very painful for us.
Even though they were raised in the Church, none of my children really had testimonies and now that they're adults, are not active. It hasn't negatively affected our relationship at all. If it were up to me, they would be devout and practicing but they aren't and they have the right to use their agency. They've all told me how much they love and respect me for loving and accepting them as they are. I don't spend time worrying about their lack of faith. They are all good people doing good things and I just love them and have faith that things will work out in the hereafter.
I remember watching a video of Stephen Fry talking about the first time he heard of eternal families in the afterlife from mormon missionaries to which he responded: “yeah and what happens if you’ve been good?” A little humor never hurts.
I've asked several non-LDS Christians about eternal families and was shocked when many said that they would not want to be with them forever. Perhaps we truly will get the level of happiness we are prepared to receive. Maybe there is a reason for the terrestrial kingdom.
Yes, the unity is not there in my family like it once was…It feels like we keep trying so hard but we can not make it feel like it was before. The people living outside the gospel feel the disunity too…..but instead blame us and our religion for not loving them unconditionally even though nothing improves our unity when more people leave the faith. We keep trying, we’ll never stop trying. I wish there was a way to get it back to what it was. How we all felt.
Thanks for so clearly describing what many (if not most) families have to experience. Not fun. For me, having people I love leave the faith and then fall into a fault-finding accusatory mindset is probably the most painful experience of my life. But that agency thing is absolute, that's for sure.
Family unity is found through unity with Christ. Those who complain about being left behind are just rejecting Christ or not relying on Him for coming back to the unity. We are in really perilous times, the reasons why people leave are really complex (some times) and numerous.
@@BlueJayBirdSaint Agreed. The Come Back Podcast helps understand how Christ breaks through all the fog when people reach out. God and Christ are so kind to keep reaching out to us all. It's a dim world, I thank the Lord for proliferation of His temples.
@@phav1832 I'm not bagging on your family. Accusing saints is what the devil does day and night. This has become so real to me. Same with with evangelical apologists, so much accusing of the saints. Weird days. God save my kids.
We don't blame you for not "loving unconditionally." Me, and most people I know, hold Mormons accountable when they label and treat non-Mormons as less than. Mormons literally look at their children going through phases guaranteed to end, and say "Oh this child is going through this, I think this is one of my non-chosen children, I'm going to treat them with narcissistic-esque abuse. And they do all sorts of things that ultimately make children push away from them. Mormons tend to interact with children in very manipulative, self-righteous ways that absolutely tear families apart. Mormons always label themselves as never deserving any sort of blame, but Mormons are the ones with an agenda to force and push someone somewhere. And that's why Ex-Mormons find the roles reversed, because they know how toxic and wicked Mormons are because of their cultish religion, so they label Mormons actions for the toxicity that arises. Most mormons have no understanding how toxic and abusive they actually are, and how many of their "Ex members' would still be members if they didn't operate from cult abuse mindsets that cause honest people to realize how wicked the Mormon cult is while simultaneously attracting the wicked manipulative people, who like to abuse people, to stay in the Mormon cult.
I feel chastened. I have let relationships with my disallusioned family members drift. It is sadly true that because we no longer share views about the meaning of life and the purpose behind experiences that our connections and conversations only go so far. I struggle to celebrate their life choices that deviate from what we’ve been taught. These choices remind me of the rift and I have been guilty of distancing myself from the consequences of their choices, which I know will ultimately bring them heartbreak. In my head, I am thinking, “don’t you see how living the gospel would have likely spared you from this result?” I don’t want to be tempted to say “I told you so,” so I pretend I don’t see, which means I must look away, which means the closeness is lost.
Do try the Come Back Podcast for some hope if you haven't already. God reaches after people and they often start to hear him after a long period of burning down their lives. My sister will never be anywhere near the same, but she's back.
@@stokenasty It totally does make sense. Mourning what they could have vs what they chose. No sense faking joy when you and a loved one are choosing different destinies but share the ride til then and invite them to the most fruitful and joyful path by "persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile"
That was brilliant! I love your take on this. Thank you! I have the most delightful kids and step kids, most of which have disconnected from the church. But God says he can make our weakness our strength. Even this? Based on what you're saying, YES!
What a beautiful video. Perfectly aligned with President Nelson’s admonishment to be a peacemaker. So many members are coming back eventually that entire channels here are dedicated to it. And the way to assist in their eventual return is EXACTLY the way Jacob is outlining here. What would Jesus do? HWLF
Beautifully said, I’m grateful that my extended family continues to get together and as sad as it is that many have not continued to be faithful in the church, everyone is loved as a family member.
It's sad that you choose to belong to a cult that's based on lies, manipulation, bullying, and cult tactics that are known to destroy families. It's a fact that real Christians operate in ways that are more likely to bring others back to the flock while fake Christians, IE Mormons, operate from ways that push people away and destroy human relationships. It's not a coincidence that Mormons and their leadership destroy significantly more human relationships than real Christians. Look at Rhett and Link from Good Mythical Morning. How much resentment do they have for their Christian Parents after they both became agnostic? None. It's because their parents love and respect their children and don't use manipulative coercion that Mormons are known for. I know countless Christians who have families who leave the flock, and their relationships are amazing. I know countless Mormons who leave the cult, and their relationships always become super strained. Is it a coincidence that False-Christianity creates more manipulative abuse (mormons) that create conditions that make so those who leave never come back, while real Christianity (Non-Mormons) operate from places of human decency that actually make so that a portion of those leave do come back? It's not. Mormons rely on gaslighting, abuse, criticizing anyone who leaves their cult. And do so many things that destroy society and people's relationships with God. Most people who are born in Mormon families, if they were born in real Christian homes, would never feel a tenth of the resentment that Mormon cult abuse creates.
Mormon cult abuse is a very real egregious wrong. and the fact that Mormons fail to take accountability for how they treat others is a glaring flaw. One thing I've noticed about Mormons is they will go to the end of the earth to make themselves come off dignified to anyone looking at them, but they won't walk an inch in order to be considerate and non-manipulative to the people they interact with. This is a very narcissistic behavior and it needs to stop.
Our father in heaven experienced a division in his family in the pre-earthly existence. That pattern and experience will and has followed every family to this earth. Another pattern in scriptures is one of the sons of the faithful being called and chosen as a spiritual leader over his many time elder brothers. Jacob, that is you in your family. Onward to Zion.
Or question? Isn’t that the way cults work? Divide you and take you away with massive amounts of control techniques. Why would God separate people? And why was this not known before LDS? lol by does God keep changing his mind?
@@dwRS1 at the beginning he is talking about how difficult it is for family members when a member of our church goes through a faith transition, because they are no longer united in their faith. It's the same for members of other churches when a family member joins our church.
@@DesertPrimrose Thank you for explaining. I understand better. We have just had 2 recent converts that joined our church and converted three of their friends and a family member from their previous church. Best case scenario I guess.
Yep. Like when they have wonderful non-LDS parents and siblings who can't even see their LDS convert family member's wedding ceremony because...sorry no good reason. Probably just a "policy" like so many weirdly strict doctrines and requirements of the past that later morphed into just having been "policies" that we "don't know much about". (Of course I get that it could be embarrassing to let outsiders actually see the weird temple costumes and odd ceremony, instead of having them stuck out in the lobby or wandering around outside the temple imagining that it must be something really beautiful because the outside of the building is so fancy.)
Its fascinating how we are accused of separating families through the doctrine of eternal families when no other Christian sect believes that earthly relationships of any kind continue into heaven.
Because the relationships will actually be better...why do Christians call each other brother and sister? Because God's nature is such that the highest relationship to one another stems from being His children.
Actually Everyone in Heaven ( only 1 kingdom of God) All people will be 1 Family in Heaven: we aren't separated into 3 different kingdoms or into single family units on different planets. We will All be together in 1 Heavenly Family with God ( trinity) as Jesus IS at the Right hand of the Majestic Glory of the Father in the ONLY Heaven. We will recognize each other from our earthly existence but those relationships don't continue as becoming god's with Eternal Heavenly sex is the Mormon incoherence of bad interpretation.
@davidjanbaz7728 you live in a delusional state of mind. You are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your deception only harms you. You don't go to a church, you don't pray to know. Sad human being.
@valeried7210 The key difference is, for Mainstream Christians, God and man are entirely different species. For them, we are only His creations and identifying us as His children is merely symbolic. It's why they have the idea that family relationships won't extend beyond this life. Fortunately, modern revelation informs us that we are literal spirit children of divine parents - a Heavenly Father and Mother. We are the same species as God, who has a body of flesh and bone, and not some foreign 1-in-3/3-in-1 entity that we can never really know or be like. Furthermore, modern revelation informs us that family relationships can extend beyond this life and don't have to be "unto death do you part." The true Christianity revealed in the Restoration is infinitely superior to the limited, sectarian Christianity that has been warped by apostasy and the philosophies of men.
I didn't know C.S. Lewis was an ex-Atheist. This is so true though. I don't see this with my family, even though I do have family members who've fallen away, but I do see it with people around me in the world. People who I just don't connect with because of their world view. It's always been very hard for me to make friends because I'm Autistic but even harder to make friends with non-members because just like you said in this video, my entire world view revolves around my LDS faith and it's my every day life and in everything I do. I just don't feel like I can connect with people who don't understand the LDS lifestyle and views of the world. Recently I've made friends with a couple non-denominational Christian guys through an LDS friend and they've been great to connect with and very open to hearing about the church but they are very rare people.
Well said Jacob! I wonder if repentance is an eternal concept and those who don’t make the best choices in their second estate might later progress in the future. Swedenborg and others who have had visions of the afterlife have suggested as much and some have quoted Joseph Smith as teaching that. He expressed hope that God would look after his family who all strayed from the Church including his wife. I hope in the Lord’s promise that he will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4. One way or another there will be no disappointed persons in the Celestial kingdom.
There are natural laws on play that allows families to be together forever. The requirements of the Restored Gospel just allow us to fulfill those requirements. God is not separating families, but helping them to go through those naturak requirements. It's like growing a crop, where God tells you what you have to do to have a good crop. You won't blame Him for not following His instructions and not having a good crop.
It's crazy but a number of Christians I've encountered consider eternal marriage to be blasphemous. They accuse us of thinking that being in God's presence isn't sufficient for us
How interesting, looking forward to this discussion. I have some thoughts about this topic. I will go find the scripture about barely remembering or not being able to remember this existence or this world. I really think that healing and forgiveness and the amazing eternity ahead affects our memories and will be quite different than we think of memories right now in mortality. I want to read scriptures that have anything to do with remembering and forgetting - I think we haven’t focused on this topic of memory or memories enough to fully understand the importance of what we think about and what we try to remember or forget.
We also have a comforting scripture in 2 Nephi 10:2 2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.
I think we have to some degree made the doctrine of eternal relationality into the doctrine of eternal nuclear families. I think this is understandable because average people can only think in terms of their own nuclear family and also because of the US cultural push towards obsession with the nuclear family in the 20th century. Nuclear families are good. But I think the doctrine of eternal relationality is much bigger and broader than just the idea of you and your immediate family being together. It makes sense of salvation not being just about your sins being forgive in a cosmic transaction but rather make salvation about a real reconciliation between us god and everyone else. It also teaches us that no person exists in isolation, in fact our identity is the sum of our relationships to other people. God saving us apart from our closest relationships wouldn’t be saving us, but rather a different person all together. Redemption and salvation are both personal and corporate. Israel was god setting his example of corporate salvation of a people and Christ to expanded it. Then somehow people made it just about them and God. I think the restoration is a corrective of that shrinking of salvation
I never thought about this before but, and correct me if I’m wrong, when you leave the church, your sealing isn’t automatically broken, that requires effort as far as I’m aware, so you can still be sealed to your family after they left the faith unless they seek to cancel the sealing which is a whole process.
DC88 15-22 is a good read. One excerpt from it seems to validate what was said in this video. “He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory”. It is US who separates ourselves from God.
The LDS doctrine of eternal families is not a comforting doctrine for some people. In fact, I know people for whom that doctrine is actually quite traumatic.
It’s traumatic as they might have unpleasant or just cruel family members who they don’t want to be stuck with? But if all this is true your body and mind will be perfected so these family member’s will be perfect.
@kylethedalek if all of it is true they won't be in a non consensual relationship. All parties would need to actively consent, God isn't going to force someone to be where they don't want to be. So even if everyone wasn't perfected, it would be irrelevant.
Our perspective can change in the next life when we at peace. There is a lot to work out and lots of work to do during the millennium. Thankfully the Lord gives us plenty of time to gather our families together through temple work
I have a few children who have left the faith. 2 of them have served missions, and one married in the temple. Another child is an Anti. I lost respect for them, and don’t trust them at all. If they’re not interested in being with me and my wife for eternity, I have no interest in being with them in mortality. If I could un-seal them from me I would do it. They’re all good people, but I won’t waste any more time on them in this life. Hopefully they come back, but doubt they will. I don’t accept their choice, so they’re on their own. I refuse to let them believe that what they’re doing is okay, and tacitly approving it by ignoring their apostasy. Some parents can do that, but I just can’t. They have their agency, and I understand that, but I’m exercising my agency to stand outwardly against them. Apostates are the worst.
Yeah it happened to me through false allegations now they grew up hating me because of the people did it which we're family I haven't seen them in nine years one of my son's in foster care 3/4 allegations and I'm fighting for hymn of last 4 years I would appreciate it if someone could pray for me it's more painful than death it's self😢
The one place everybody, their brother, and the stray demon down the street always thinks they are experts, is the kingdom of GOD, which MOST are either clueless about or deliberately hiding the truth.
10:00 and not only that, but the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms play out in this life. The Celestial minister, and then the terrestrial minister, until the Telestial receive and that raises the whole by the one drop of leven hid in all the measures.
I think those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will always retain their relationship to family members who don't. The sealing power will keep those bonds for their sake. However, only those who inherit the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will have the ability for eternal increase. And I think everyone will be given a fair and just opportunity, and those who "remain single and separate in their saved condition" won't be able to blame the Lord or anyone else.
Those who remain single will, what? Not EVERYONE in tbis life had the opportunity to get married...if they have gone to the temple etc...will have an opprtunity to have marriage and a family
@@motherbug2001 I'm not talking about those who didn't get an opportunity in this life and accept the Gospel. They will be given every opportunity for that. I'm talking about those who, through their own choices in mortal life and the spirit world, inherit the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms. As D&C 132 explains, they will be saved but not exalted, remaining single and separate in their saved condition.
@@davidjanbaz7728 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. - Doctrine & Covenants 76:71-79
Matthew 10: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
@@ZelphBones To me all of these kinds of passages that contradict other passages and create huge wastelands of ambiguity into which religious people of various kinds project their own preferences and interpretation...just indicate that Bible-based belief systems are a hopeless mess, including, of course, Mormonism. The Bible is a huge book in which anyone can find justification for virtually anything. The OT is the favorite source of justification for the more tyrannical and violence-oriented people, who use the "law" (as they interpret it) to oppress others in order to facilitate their own accumulations of power and wealth. The NT is more touchy-feely-emo stuff, but the above-cited passages open the door for people to indulge in their OT-oriented freak side, when they want. The "holy writ" is little more than a Rorschach inkblot pad that reveals much about the psychology of the people interpreting it, while revealing precious little in the way of substantive truth about reality. Mormonism just adds it's own extra books to make it easier for the leaders to come up with even more crap that the general consensus of more mainstream Bible-based religious organizations have traditionally rejected (such as skin-color curses, plural marriage and eternal "family sealings" conditioned upon paying 10% of income to a bureaucracy working out of a huge office building in downtown SLC, as well as a requirement for buying your underwear from the same bureaucracy, among many other odd innovations of Mormonism).
“The church” isn’t an institution. God himself said so in the D&C. It is all those who repent and come unto Christ. It’s a spiritual church because “all things” are spiritual to god.
God doesn't separate us. We separate ourselves from each other. I know everyone says that God is our judge. The thing is we are given our agency to choose for ourselves. Ultimately we judge ourselves based on our life choices. What God does is build kingdoms for us. A telestial person could not live in a celestial sphere of light and would not be happy there. This is my personal take on eternal life. If you are happy living a terrestrial life that is where you will go. God would not force you to live a celestial life. Just like we separate ourselves here we will be in the next life.
Well said. Heavenly Father will allow us to spend our eternity where we want to be and where we'll feel the most comfortable. Is there a more fair path to happiness? I think not.
Actually, yes, God literally does separate us: "and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats" Matt 25:33
The devil is the one telling you that we will all be in a place where we will be comfortable. The truth is that there is a hell and many will go there, but especially those who deny it exists. "And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none-and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance." 2 Nephi 28:22
While I appreciate what you're trying to say here Jacob, the fact is that the LDS church does teach and believe that families can be separated for eternity. A person born in the covenant who makes it all the way to a temple sealing that later leaves the church is now an apostate and will inherit a lesser kingdom. My LDS family mourns that separation here and now, in this life, and it does affect conversations and opinions of people. Their feelings towards the exmo family has soured. I agree with you that relationships here and now matter more than whatever may or may not come in the next life because we have no proof or guarantee of what is to come. I could even argue that those who have left the church feel this truth acutely! Because they have lost trust in the LDS idea of an afterlife, they live better sweeter lives NOW and don't waste time. They see the value of being kinder and more loving in relationships NOW. Because right now is the only guarantee. I could say more but this is a very sad thing that causes pain in my mixed faith extended family. I wish the 'levels of heaven' thing was never taught or believed because it does cause pain. Choosing not to believe in it anymore has been a huge weight off my back.
That’s why the gospel is called “The Plan of Happiness.” There is so much hope and joy in temple covenants. I’m sealings… at some point, our loved ones will have the choice again if they want to belong to God’s family or not. It’s such an amazing Plan. God is so good! 💕☀️
I mena this is the kindest way, but I think this view suffers from myopia. God is so great that our kingdoms and existence will be beyond anything we can imagine now. Additionally, his grace and mercy will change many hearts before judgment happens. Keep faithful my friend.
This reads like a great scripture in Isaiah "They say to the prophets "prophesy not" and to the seers "see not" Speak to us smooth things and prophesy deceit"
7:00 this is largely the issue with people who reject the gospel: they don’t understand that ordinances are SYMBOLIC. The ordinance itself is the teacher of the symbolic nature of what God is looking for. Celestial families have more than ordinances performed, but they live what the ordinances teach.
So the ordinances are symbolic? Doesn't that imply that god, the BOM, the plan, jesus, Kolob, etc. are all symbolic? So then what's true? What's with this zany little metaphor? It's nerf or nothin and if the ordinances are symbolic with no physical connection to reality then it's nothin.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 sometimes what we think is literal plays out differently. Natural fulfillment of prophecy for instance does play out symbolically and literally, but not in the way most people think. Example: in the Old testament there were prophecies of Christ’s day that painted pictures that could be thought symbolically, like “not one stone left upon another”, “riding on the back of a donkey” or the “rending of the garment” and the temple veil. They are all symbolic, but have a literal fulfillment. The temple ordinances and the members doing them put them in the symbolic role of Christ: performing work for others that others cannot do for themselves. The sealing of families and the covenant associated with that are conditional based on living and abiding by the words of those covenants and obligations. When people strive for that, they have a greater outlook for celestial marriages. When they break covenants, they tear apart the foundations of their families. That is why the “celestial ministering to the terrestrial and telestial” happens. It doesn’t mean a soul is less valuable because they currently in this life understand things through a Telestial paradigm. When parents hold their covenants solid and firm and live by every word that proceeds forth from God through those ordinances, the effect it has on families can raise the whole as the leaven hidden in the 3 measures of meal that Christ spoke about. God gives light to some and that light is shared and grows brighter and brighter until the perfect dat when all the family is united as one again and we see clearly and not through a glass darkly. 💜💟🙏 so yes, these ordinances are both literal and symbolic. Doing them teaches you and the power God grants and blesses you with for showing your faith is literal. God parting the sea by an east wind is often portrayed as the water vertically going up on either side. But further study of weather patterns and language reveal that the word “wall of water” could refer to a hard floor or barrier. And the East wind would have brought freezing temps likely to create that floor/wall of water on either side enough for the “congealed” floor of water to have the Israelites pass by and then break apart to drown the egyptians in the red sea. Is this the real way the parting of the red sea happened? Who knows. But what people have been taught and what they think of is sometimes not how things really happen literally. But they all happen and God will fulfill all His words.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 Let me pose it to you this way also: The ordinances when done correctly teach different things. Let’s take infant baptism as an example. When people practice infant baptism, what is the symbolism of that ordinance? That God only saves the baptized. Is that true? Is that in line with God’s character? If not, the ordinance is not of God and therefore is a “dead work”. Likewise, some people who marry in the temple just to complete a checklist for their “celestial portfolio” are performing a “dead work” which is discouraged by the scriptures. That work of marrying in the temple counts toward the benefit of the person IF they do the ordinance with full purpose of heart to live by it. And it teaches them how to have a successful family and healthy relationships with family. The temple ordinances teach boundary setting, commandment keeping, relationship building. The fruit of the ordinance can (if a person understands it correctly) bring a celestial life and influence. Infant baptism would not produce that. Even 8 year old baptism if done in a forced way (meaning the child doesn’t want baptism but the parent says ‘well, you have to’) it is no better than baptizing a bag of sand as Brigham Young taught. Children can make simple decisions like baptism, which the symbolism of the ordinance is not a ticket to the celestial kingdom. It is a gate or entry way. Admittedly, some who practice infant baptism in other churches with a symbolism of hope from the parent to the child might be an acceptable ordinance pf faith (not of priesthood) that God might smile upon. But doing that ordinance so that a child doesn’t “end up in hell” is as Mormon ch 8 says is a “mockery of God”. I hope this helps you understand better. Put shortly: God blesses us for every act of faith we do. Some acts of faith are ordinances, which when done correctly teach us the way to live our life to have a certain desired result. Thus the fulfillment is symbolic and teachable for us, but also literal and gives us more grace for grace to overcome.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 to answer directly about Kolob: it doesn’t matter right now if Kolob is a literal place or not because the symbolism is more important for the fruit it can produce in a person once they grasp the symbolism that is only revealed by the Holy Spirit. I think the general feeling among many members is that it COULD be. And remember, what could be is just as important as what IS. Because if there is a hope that can be attained, only by faith is it achieved. You cannot become a neurologist by playing Mario Kart all day. You actually have to go study and put your faith to action in the hope you desire. And if you have no hope, what are you? What is your purpose in life? To be ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of. Because only those who have enough belief to power them forth into the realm of could can they ever move past the part of faith into the proof.
The story of Job was an allegory. There is a lot of that in the Bible. It’s important to know that fact so that you don’t dismiss it all, like you appear to be doing.
@@bkgoulding oh really. What’s the moral of the story then? Is it the righteous man always loves god no matter how cruel he is? Is it that women and children are property? Or is the point that god needn’t have any moral fortitude and can gamble away his creation in a back alley bet with one of his jesters? D all of the above. Of coarse Jesus covenant hadn’t happened yet so some how that makes his actions ok.😀
@@harryfve5 You’re cynical, so I’m about to waste my time. Here goes anyway. I’ll make it short: This story (not history) is symbolic of the test of life from before the world was made to the end. The hypothetical conversation between God and the devil is symbolic of the fact that God does allow Satan to tempt and try us in this life. Job was a good man who did right and therefore had success in everything, professionally and personally. In spite of his goodness, Satan and nature worked against him. He lost everything. Everyone. In his greatest moments of despair, he still kept the faith. He wasn’t perfect, but he never gave up. In the end, which is symbolic of post-earth life, everything and everyone was returned to him, and then some. He lived happily ever after. The end. Your sarcasm tells me that you never bothered to try to see the obvious and powerful morals in this metaphorical story. Too bad. I find it VERY inspiring. Millions of others do, too. I guess we’re all just idiots and you’re the smart one, but that’s fine by me.
Great message, except the “who changed, you or God?” idea is a false binary. In my experience, the catalyst for faith change is new information. Converts don’t just join the church out of the blue. Similarly, active members don’t fall away without reason. If we could learn to treat everyone as lifelong investigators instead of betrayers of the truth, we’d enjoy stronger relationships and be better prepared to the further light and knowledge to come that we profess a belief in.
Also "who changed, you or God?" is a classic case of begging the question. Since there is actually no evidence that Mormon doctrines and teachings really came from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent supreme being referred to as "God"...but rather just came from men like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others who claimed they were speaking for such "God", it's a logically ridiculous presumption to frame the question that way. And now, in modern times, we see that probably more than half of the things these men claimed to have gotten from "God" have been demoted by modern "prophets" as being nothing but wrong-headed policies, flecks of history and embarrassments that we "don't know much about". Any scammer can claim that something they want you to do is commanded by God...and then ask you why you are "rejecting God" if you don't play along with their delusional claim.
If I’m living the gospel of faith repentance and baptism, why would God separate me from my family? If I’m living the gospel and my family is, wouldn’t we just end up together? If I was sealed in a temple but didn’t love the gospel, I wouldn’t be with them in the afterlife anyway.
"still it seems to me a fact that it is impossible to achieve a kind of eternal familial unity spoken of by Christ without sharing fundamental paradigms about the meaning of existence." I could make the argument that Christ never taught that temple endowments (our current version) were necessary to salvation (the temple endowment is for personal salvation. extra ordinances that would bar me from celestial glory even if I'm baptized and even if I live the endowment covenants without being endowed , I'd still be out.) I could also make the claim that our version of the endowment was not what the original version was in Kirkland. anyway, this is all to say that the temple endowment is a problem doctrinally and socially/culturally amongst members. The endowment complicates things unnecessarily keeping a strangle hold on the the paradigm of those in the church and their view of those that believe otherwise. if people find out you dont wear garments anymore, you are treated different, even if you still believe everything else about the gospel. @@thoughtfulfaith2020
@@skwirl828 You yourself just admitted that baptism, which is a covenant bound with a symbol (the baptism), is necessary to live with God. Why do you believe that is true? Why would God force everyone to be baptized in order to enter into heaven? Why doesn't he just let good people who go to church enter into heaven? You see, the same argument you use against the doctrine of temples and temple covenants is the same doctrine that you already believe in. LOL I chuckle when I hear ex members who still call themselves Christians and Christians not of our faith disparage the necessity of making covenants in a temple as a requisite to enter into heaven when they already believe that God requires his disciples to make covenants to enter into heaven. God is a covenant making God. We see that in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
@@davidfrey5654 I never said the ordinance of baptism wasn’t necessary. It is because Christ taught that it was. And it can also be confirmed over and over again in the scriptures. The endowment cannot. I’m not against covenants with God. I’m against secret sworn oaths which the BOM apposes. You may say the endowment isn’t such, and it may be tamer now, but it was essentially a blood oath for a long time.
@@davidfrey5654 if I am baptized in the church and I live and keep gospel the 5 temple covenants but I did not go through the endowment, am I allowed in the celestial kingdom?
We also mourn the loss of the light and comfort that the gospel is. To know one day we will live again and that all our losses will be made up through Christ. I couldn’t do life without that knowledge. That’s also why many who fall away can struggle with suicide: they reject the premise of hope.
So everyone on the planet not following Joseph Smith is ready to off themselves because they don't have the pure truth, or just those who have left Mormonism?! Why are you such a miserable, spiteful, heartless Pharisee then? 🤔 # rottenfruit
If this is a telestial world, and we, being even less than a person resurrected with a telestial body, can be visited by Celestial beings then why can't those resurrected to that glory not be able to visit those of other glories? It seems to me that telestial beings can't visit terrestrial or Celestial, but not the other way around.
I really like how you explained that its not God seperating us but ourselves because of the choices we are making to not have that be our goal and priority.
Ok who claims that god cuts off families.. god does what is right for all of us. If families are cutting off their children because their children are gay..who wants that..by the way. The Uganda situation with non straight people is so cruel and yet the mormon church has been involved there with family virtues and laws there. Why??.
Well, it's often the underlying doctrines and teachings that create the divide...unnecessarily. Stepping outside of your faith bubble, who can really be faulted for not believing in the irrational "eternal sealing" ordinances of the temple, or the conditions attached to obtaining those "sealings" (e.g. paying 10% of your income to a church bureaucracy headquartered in SLC, buying underwear from the church, not drinking coffee or tea, etc.)? That whole racket was clearly a case where someone in authority created a fake problem in order to sell a fake solution. For people questioning the biblical narrative (and its very many different and competing interpretations), it's obviously a super weird belief system. Even for people who are really into the bible, it doesn't make any sense. Supposedly (according to Luke 12:7), God is aware of and keeps track of every hair on everyone's head and monitors every sparrow's life functions closely and in detail...but for some reason can't figure out how to reunite families in the afterlife without a record of them getting "sealing" ordinances done in special buildings built and maintained by the LDS church (said ordinances consisting mainly of a bunch of Masonic handshakes and weird cult-member cosplay activities, involving chanting around an altar, among other things). When you really have no rational or logical or factual arguments to support an odd belief system that, for whatever reason, you have chosen to devote your life to (purely as a matter of "faith"), the responsibility for not letting your odd belief system divide you from people who choose not to be irrational probably is most properly on your shoulders. Of course the friends and relatives who reject your odd faith, ideally should be willing to meet you halfway. But if you're constantly adopting attitudes of self-righteous condescension toward them and making it clear that you think they have "fallen" (a word repeated numerous times in this video), it can make things more difficult than they need to be. Humbly accept that you're the one choosing the weird (and you should get "CTW" rings to remind you of that)...then accept non-believers as being your equals, rather than seeing them as "fallen" people to be pitied...and you'll probably have better luck.
The biggest thing I've noticed is there are significantly more tension between Mormons who leave and their family members, than there is between Christians who leave and their family members. I've noticed it in real life and the internet. When Mormons leave it's very similar to when someone leaves the scientology religion. When Christians leave, a lot of times Christians operate in ways that aren't manipulative, conniving, or wicked--in other words they are more like Christ. And they are significantly more likely to keep healthy relations and their children are significantly more likely to return to the fold. I'm so jealous of real Christians when I look at how much cult-member abuse is in Mormon families. So sad, so sad, so sad.
its because mormonism is a fraudulent cult and when we who have been born in to the cult and duped our whole lives realize it and want nothing more to do with it, the cult expects those that still believe to defend the cult and ostracize the critics. Normal Christians dont behave that way
Hot take - “eternal families” is not a true doctrine. Eternal family is - we are all brothers and sisters and will all be sealed to each other after time. Being too fixated on your nuclear or extended family misses the mark (yet is still important of course).
this is true, the sealing families thing came with brigham, not joseph, and is connected to polygamy, which we now disregard. the original sealings were not centered around families specifically.
The whole families can be together forever saying just seems odd to me. Because it makes it sound like unless you are a Mormon (which I am) you wont be with your family which is not the case.
"And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God." - D&C 132:13. In other words, family relationships only last beyond the grave if they are sealed by Priesthood authority. That's precisely why we do temple work, including for the dead. As for those who don't follow this covenant path... "For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. - D&C 132:17
That you claim you're a "Mormon", might be the problem. Try rephrasing that if you understand my point. Otherwise your last sentence has little meaning.
Unless people are sealed and keep their covenants they will not be tied together on the other side. Only one Church offers that possibility. It's not that God doesn't love all of us, it's that not all of us love him enough to choose the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D Is it because they're actually a "member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"? You need to get over this. I was raised in the church and at the time we were all gladly calling ourselves "Mormons".
@@hrv4908 So there's our answer then. If only one person in a family has gone through all the saving ordinances, then they will not be with their family in heaven. That family will be separated.
Personally, I don't care. I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have several members of my extended family who no longer attend. The ones who just say, "Well, it's not for me". I don't care even a little bit if that is their stance. It's not for them. If it's not for them then it's not for them. The chances of me changing their mind are right at 0.0 because I am not them, only they know themselves. The ones I have a problem with are the ones who want to preach. The devil is in them. I know the devil is in them because they don't just change religions, they turn their backs on everything that is good in this world. Everything their parents taught them. Everything the US Constitution, Christianity, and Western Civilization has taught them. Everything the devil wants to destroy they want to destroy. Not a shred of doubt in my mind, the Devil is controlling their thoughts.
Very odd that in John 17 Jesus doesn't speak of temple ordinances and celestial laws as the way to bring unity as you did here, and instead he speaks of the nature of His relationship with the Father as the unifying factor. Btw, you have a great family; but yes, we were made to be in right relationship with each other. I imagine what you're experiencing is extremely difficult. I appreciate th r vulnerability of this video.
Jesus doesn't have to. We know that it is a promise given in Malachi 3. It is also a promise given to our Father Abraham. The rituals and ordinances were always understood just like baptism but realized only after the fact.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 what is a promise given in Malachi 3 and to Father Abraham? That his descendants would be unified when they were sealed in the temple?
@@valeried7210 More or less. The Covenants we make in the temple are exact replicas of the promises Abraham and Malachi made to God and the promises God made to them. Both require sacrifice and Priesthood authority.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Abraham was asleep when the covenant was made in Genesis 15. In Malachi 4 the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings. There is nothing about ordinances unifying the people.
@@Allthoseopposed they have a false Gospel and R confused as God puts us in his Eternal family by believing in Jesus Atonement on the Cross ✝️. Mormons deny the Atonement on Cross( it only happens in the Garden) and refuse to wear it.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Once again, you're commenting on things you know nothing about. We believe the Atonement occurred in Gethsemane, Golgotha, and the Garden tomb. Thanks to modern revelation, we have a better, more complete understanding of the Atonement than anyone.
The day I find one Mormon who operates from real Christian love is the day I will stop criticizing the Mormon church. I've never met a Mormon who has semblance to real Christians. Mormons are always more similar to scientologists.
I'm still trying to figure out how Joseph predicted the Civil War 28 years before it started. You need to slow down, the Restored Gospel is hard to keep up with.
Actually, it's quite obvious. In November 1832, South Carolina held a state convention that passed what is called the "Ordinance of Nullification" pursuant to which South Carolina rejected the federal tariffs of 1828 and 1832, declaring them to be null and void. This triggered the "Nullification Crisis". In late 1832, the potential for civil war was widely discussed and reported on all throughout the United States. Joseph Smith got his "prophecy" on the matter at the very end of December 1832 (December 25 to be exact). This is what became D&C 87. Joseph Smith was basically just commenting on current events and news and presenting his opinion as a "revelation" (basically a bad habit he had developed by then). As it turned out, most of the important details of Joseph Smith's prophecy actually did not turn out to be true. But indeed a civil war did break out almost 30 years later, beginning with an attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina in April of 1861 (Fort Sumter being the key installation for enforcement of the federal tariffs against South Carolina). Joseph Smith's prediction was not unique or remarkable. Many people were predicting it at the time, as the build up to the conflict between the southern states and the northern states had been brewing for many decades. The Nullification Crisis in 1832 appeared to be bringing it to the boiling point, but things were then cooled down for a few more decades until they finally erupted into a full-blown civil war in 1861. It was only much later that more recent generations of Mormons (largely ignorant of the historical details) began claiming that Joseph Smith's "revelation" about civil war was an amazing "prophecy".
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Well, the war could have never been fought, but it was. The South could have won, but they lost. The slaves could have never been freed, but they were. It could have not been ALL of the Southern States vs ALL of the Northern States, some states could have stayed neutral and some could have gone to the other side, but it was the southern states vs the northern states. It could have started somewhere besides South Carolina, but it did start there. The South could have decided not to call on aid from England and other European powers, but they did. Everything Joseph prophesied came true. He could have used words like Grant Lee and Gettysburg, I suppose. That would be more accurate. But even then the Antis would say he just got lucky. It's too accurate for me. If it was the year before, or even ten years before, then maybe. But twenty eight years in advance? It was a prophecy.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I compare Joseph to Nostradamus. It helps me figure out what your average person really thinks. There are books and documentaries all over the place about Nostradamus, because your average person believes his quatrains to be prophetic. Joseph's prophecies were ten times cooler than those lame little poems Nostradamus came up with. So I know your average person would be impressed with Joseph if it were not from a 'religious experience'. People today don't want to be associated with 'religious' things. But mysticism and spiritualism and all that are 'cool' and 'edgy' so they follow them. That's how Lucifer works.
@@wes2176 Well, that's a lot of "could haves" (i.e. conjecture) that misses the key point. The point is that Joseph Smith was simply echoing the opinions and predictions that were circulating widely in 1832, centered on South Carolina. Were all the other people who were saying the same things before Joseph Smith also prophets? In the event of a civil war, the northern states were regarded as having a huge advantage due to being highly industrialized and having a much larger population. As it turned out, it was much closer than people predicted. Joseph Smith mainly predicted that it would quickly turn into a global war as a direct result of the southern states getting Great Britain to come to the defense of the southern states and then many other countries would be brought in to then join in the conflict between the southern states and northern states. That didn't happen. (I know some people try to claim WWI and WWII as being the fulfillment of that, but that's not at all what D&C 87 says if you read it with common sense.)
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Yes, a lot of could haves that Joseph got correct. Like guessing heads or tails ten times in a row correctly, it's possible, but very unlikely. Did you actually think about what I typed, or did you just start responding back to me after reading "could have". Because you are supporting Joseph Smith by saying "that's a lot of could haves" You are just reacting and probably copying and pasting from some third-rate Anti-Mormon webpage. Even if Joseph had used words like 'Gettysburg' and 'Pickets charge' and 'Rebel Yell' and 'Amtitem' you still wouldn't believe it was prophecy. You want it to not be prophecy so badly, so it's not, even if it is. And you're not even reading my comments anyway.
the doctrine of eternal marriage / family is not christian and in fact it's another false teaching from Joseph smith the false prophet that contradicts Jesus teaching. Matthew 22:23-34 is PROOF. the woman who was married 7 times after the death of each of her husband will not be wife to any of them at the resurrection because as Mathew 22:29 states: "Jesus replied, You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. " This is another proof that mormons don't read the Bible. They prefer to follow Joseph Smith instead of the teaching of Jesus himself! And btw, Luke 20:34-35 is another clear passage on the same topic
This is NOT what Jesus is saying. He is saying, in the resurrection there is no marrying (male verb) or being given in marriage (female verb) [note the active, present tense]; for the matters of marriage have already been worked out (during the Millenium and before resurrection). The point Jesus is making is that the “seven brothers among us [the Sadducees]” who believed not the true gospel of Jesus would remain unmarried- for no marriage has power or effect after this life except those sealed by His power and authority. Therefore they would “remain as angels in Heaven” (didn’t believe in angels, the resurrection, or the gospel of Christ). Therefore, they do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God. Let me offer three additional scriptures: “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Mark 10:9) “It is not good that the man should be alone.” (Genesis 2:18) “Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:11)
I'd rather believe in the doctrine of eternal marriage and eternal families than in the doctrine that if you don't accept Jesus Christ in THIS life, you're going to burn in hell for eternity. Imagine the BILLIONS of God's children that are supposedly going to be thrust down into an everlasting pit of fire and brimstone, even if they never had the chance to listen to the full gospel message. That's what evangelicals and protestants believe. Now THAT is an ugly false doctrine.
Families ARE forever - That's Mormon doctrine. But the part about FOREVER applies only if you you are FOREVER a faithful member. There is NO reward from God for the unfaithful and the wicked. And by the way ... "faithful member" does not necessarily mean perfect. That's why repentance exists. We achieve perfection - in part - via repentance. Repentance achieves wholeness and oneness with God, and we are indeed commanded to be PERFECT. But God of course knows this will not be achieved in an earthly existence. This earthly life is our second estate. Our first estate was with God before birth. Our third estate will be our existence following death, following our Judgement, and following our resurrection.
When I joined the Church, my non LDS family rejected me. So being separate from my family was their choice. I chose Christ. ‘If you do not leave father, mother, brother, sister to follow me, you are not my disciple.” In the end, Christ is singular important. The eternal constant. So, I do not care if I do not see my family. Once you really fall madly in love with Christ, no one else matters. Love is fulfilled by Christ. Not by mortals. Once you master that order of relationships, then human relations are not important. Life is too short to stay emotionally or spiritually tethered to those who do not add to your happiness or eternal goals. Am happy to share what I have learned through conversion and aloneness in the gospel.
Wow! It sounds like your family really missed out! I’m glad you have found peace in Christ!
Thanks for what you have said. My wife and I had 6 children, all raised in the church. Now my first 4 have left the church, the 5th is also going in that direction and my 6th. This has been a very difficult and sad situation for my wife and I. The worst part about this for us, besides the possibility of not being able to be with our kids beyond this life, is that some of them have become extremely mean spirit and the constant attack on our believes have been very painful for us.
Even though they were raised in the Church, none of my children really had testimonies and now that they're adults, are not active. It hasn't negatively affected our relationship at all. If it were up to me, they would be devout and practicing but they aren't and they have the right to use their agency. They've all told me how much they love and respect me for loving and accepting them as they are. I don't spend time worrying about their lack of faith. They are all good people doing good things and I just love them and have faith that things will work out in the hereafter.
I remember watching a video of Stephen Fry talking about the first time he heard of eternal families in the afterlife from mormon missionaries to which he responded: “yeah and what happens if you’ve been good?” A little humor never hurts.
Well what is better than this?
Pretty funny lol
@@kylethedalek Anything other than being welded to random people who you share DNA with for ALL ETERNITY.
I've asked several non-LDS Christians about eternal families and was shocked when many said that they would not want to be with them forever. Perhaps we truly will get the level of happiness we are prepared to receive. Maybe there is a reason for the terrestrial kingdom.
Yes, the unity is not there in my family like it once was…It feels like we keep trying so hard but we can not make it feel like it was before. The people living outside the gospel feel the disunity too…..but instead blame us and our religion for not loving them unconditionally even though nothing improves our unity when more people leave the faith. We keep trying, we’ll never stop trying. I wish there was a way to get it back to what it was. How we all felt.
Thanks for so clearly describing what many (if not most) families have to experience. Not fun. For me, having people I love leave the faith and then fall into a fault-finding accusatory mindset is probably the most painful experience of my life. But that agency thing is absolute, that's for sure.
Family unity is found through unity with Christ. Those who complain about being left behind are just rejecting Christ or not relying on Him for coming back to the unity. We are in really perilous times, the reasons why people leave are really complex (some times) and numerous.
@@BlueJayBirdSaint Agreed. The Come Back Podcast helps understand how Christ breaks through all the fog when people reach out. God and Christ are so kind to keep reaching out to us all. It's a dim world, I thank the Lord for proliferation of His temples.
@@phav1832 I'm not bagging on your family. Accusing saints is what the devil does day and night. This has become so real to me. Same with with evangelical apologists, so much accusing of the saints. Weird days. God save my kids.
We don't blame you for not "loving unconditionally." Me, and most people I know, hold Mormons accountable when they label and treat non-Mormons as less than. Mormons literally look at their children going through phases guaranteed to end, and say "Oh this child is going through this, I think this is one of my non-chosen children, I'm going to treat them with narcissistic-esque abuse. And they do all sorts of things that ultimately make children push away from them. Mormons tend to interact with children in very manipulative, self-righteous ways that absolutely tear families apart. Mormons always label themselves as never deserving any sort of blame, but Mormons are the ones with an agenda to force and push someone somewhere. And that's why Ex-Mormons find the roles reversed, because they know how toxic and wicked Mormons are because of their cultish religion, so they label Mormons actions for the toxicity that arises. Most mormons have no understanding how toxic and abusive they actually are, and how many of their "Ex members' would still be members if they didn't operate from cult abuse mindsets that cause honest people to realize how wicked the Mormon cult is while simultaneously attracting the wicked manipulative people, who like to abuse people, to stay in the Mormon cult.
I feel chastened. I have let relationships with my disallusioned family members drift. It is sadly true that because we no longer share views about the meaning of life and the purpose behind experiences that our connections and conversations only go so far. I struggle to celebrate their life choices that deviate from what we’ve been taught. These choices remind me of the rift and I have been guilty of distancing myself from the consequences of their choices, which I know will ultimately bring them heartbreak. In my head, I am thinking, “don’t you see how living the gospel would have likely spared you from this result?” I don’t want to be tempted to say “I told you so,” so I pretend I don’t see, which means I must look away, which means the closeness is lost.
Do try the Come Back Podcast for some hope if you haven't already. God reaches after people and they often start to hear him after a long period of burning down their lives. My sister will never be anywhere near the same, but she's back.
So you’re sad that you judged your family because of the choices they made? Makes sense
@@stokenasty It totally does make sense. Mourning what they could have vs what they chose. No sense faking joy when you and a loved one are choosing different destinies but share the ride til then and invite them to the most fruitful and joyful path by "persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile"
@@bloviax too bad it’s all fake
@@stokenasty What is real that will get you immortality and a perfected soul?
I'm a former Mormon and I appreciate what you have to say in this video. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Respectfully, sir, can we ask what happened?
@@TheMusicscotty He opened his eyes.
I got so much out of this. Watching this video got me on my knees. Thank you.
That was brilliant! I love your take on this. Thank you! I have the most delightful kids and step kids, most of which have disconnected from the church. But God says he can make our weakness our strength. Even this? Based on what you're saying, YES!
What a beautiful video. Perfectly aligned with President Nelson’s admonishment to be a peacemaker. So many members are coming back eventually that entire channels here are dedicated to it. And the way to assist in their eventual return is EXACTLY the way Jacob is outlining here. What would Jesus do? HWLF
Beautifully said, I’m grateful that my extended family continues to get together and as sad as it is that many have not continued to be faithful in the church, everyone is loved as a family member.
It's sad that you choose to belong to a cult that's based on lies, manipulation, bullying, and cult tactics that are known to destroy families. It's a fact that real Christians operate in ways that are more likely to bring others back to the flock while fake Christians, IE Mormons, operate from ways that push people away and destroy human relationships. It's not a coincidence that Mormons and their leadership destroy significantly more human relationships than real Christians. Look at Rhett and Link from Good Mythical Morning. How much resentment do they have for their Christian Parents after they both became agnostic? None. It's because their parents love and respect their children and don't use manipulative coercion that Mormons are known for. I know countless Christians who have families who leave the flock, and their relationships are amazing. I know countless Mormons who leave the cult, and their relationships always become super strained. Is it a coincidence that False-Christianity creates more manipulative abuse (mormons) that create conditions that make so those who leave never come back, while real Christianity (Non-Mormons) operate from places of human decency that actually make so that a portion of those leave do come back? It's not. Mormons rely on gaslighting, abuse, criticizing anyone who leaves their cult. And do so many things that destroy society and people's relationships with God. Most people who are born in Mormon families, if they were born in real Christian homes, would never feel a tenth of the resentment that Mormon cult abuse creates.
Mormon cult abuse is a very real egregious wrong. and the fact that Mormons fail to take accountability for how they treat others is a glaring flaw. One thing I've noticed about Mormons is they will go to the end of the earth to make themselves come off dignified to anyone looking at them, but they won't walk an inch in order to be considerate and non-manipulative to the people they interact with. This is a very narcissistic behavior and it needs to stop.
Our father in heaven experienced a division in his family in the pre-earthly existence. That pattern and experience will and has followed every family to this earth.
Another pattern in scriptures is one of the sons of the faithful being called and chosen as a spiritual leader over his many time elder brothers.
Jacob, that is you in your family. Onward to Zion.
haSatan was never Jesus brother!
Mormonism is only an Oxymoron counterfeit of Authentic Christianity.
Wow, what an arrogant statement. Mormons: they “nicely” believe they’re superior to everyone else.
Good point.
Makes you feel empathy for family members of LDS converts.
Or question?
Isn’t that the way cults work?
Divide you and take you away with massive amounts of control techniques.
Why would God separate people?
And why was this not known before LDS?
lol by does God keep changing his mind?
Why, what do you mean?
@@dwRS1 at the beginning he is talking about how difficult it is for family members when a member of our church goes through a faith transition, because they are no longer united in their faith. It's the same for members of other churches when a family member joins our church.
@@DesertPrimrose Thank you for explaining. I understand better. We have just had 2 recent converts that joined our church and converted three of their friends and a family member from their previous church. Best case scenario I guess.
Yep. Like when they have wonderful non-LDS parents and siblings who can't even see their LDS convert family member's wedding ceremony because...sorry no good reason. Probably just a "policy" like so many weirdly strict doctrines and requirements of the past that later morphed into just having been "policies" that we "don't know much about". (Of course I get that it could be embarrassing to let outsiders actually see the weird temple costumes and odd ceremony, instead of having them stuck out in the lobby or wandering around outside the temple imagining that it must be something really beautiful because the outside of the building is so fancy.)
"Thats eh uh - nice - uh - Eternal Progress you got there. 'Be a travesty if something were to happen to it..."
Jacob that was a beautiful talk
Great point. ❤
Love your thoughts! 💕☀️
Its fascinating how we are accused of separating families through the doctrine of eternal families when no other Christian sect believes that earthly relationships of any kind continue into heaven.
Because the relationships will actually be better...why do Christians call each other brother and sister? Because God's nature is such that the highest relationship to one another stems from being His children.
@valeried7210 We call eachother brother and sister for the same reasons, we just also believe that familial units as part of our Father's plan.
Actually Everyone in Heaven ( only 1 kingdom of God) All people will be 1 Family in Heaven: we aren't separated into 3 different kingdoms or into single family units on different planets.
We will All be together in 1 Heavenly Family with God ( trinity) as Jesus IS at the Right hand of the Majestic Glory of the Father in the ONLY Heaven.
We will recognize each other from our earthly existence but those relationships don't continue as becoming god's with Eternal Heavenly sex is the Mormon incoherence of bad interpretation.
@davidjanbaz7728 you live in a delusional state of mind. You are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Your deception only harms you. You don't go to a church, you don't pray to know. Sad human being.
@valeried7210 The key difference is, for Mainstream Christians, God and man are entirely different species. For them, we are only His creations and identifying us as His children is merely symbolic. It's why they have the idea that family relationships won't extend beyond this life.
Fortunately, modern revelation informs us that we are literal spirit children of divine parents - a Heavenly Father and Mother. We are the same species as God, who has a body of flesh and bone, and not some foreign 1-in-3/3-in-1 entity that we can never really know or be like. Furthermore, modern revelation informs us that family relationships can extend beyond this life and don't have to be "unto death do you part."
The true Christianity revealed in the Restoration is infinitely superior to the limited, sectarian Christianity that has been warped by apostasy and the philosophies of men.
I didn't know C.S. Lewis was an ex-Atheist. This is so true though. I don't see this with my family, even though I do have family members who've fallen away, but I do see it with people around me in the world. People who I just don't connect with because of their world view. It's always been very hard for me to make friends because I'm Autistic but even harder to make friends with non-members because just like you said in this video, my entire world view revolves around my LDS faith and it's my every day life and in everything I do. I just don't feel like I can connect with people who don't understand the LDS lifestyle and views of the world. Recently I've made friends with a couple non-denominational Christian guys through an LDS friend and they've been great to connect with and very open to hearing about the church but they are very rare people.
Well said Jacob! I wonder if repentance is an eternal concept and those who don’t make the best choices in their second estate might later progress in the future. Swedenborg and others who have had visions of the afterlife have suggested as much and some have quoted Joseph Smith as teaching that. He expressed hope that God would look after his family who all strayed from the Church including his wife.
I hope in the Lord’s promise that he will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4. One way or another there will be no disappointed persons in the Celestial kingdom.
There are natural laws on play that allows families to be together forever. The requirements of the Restored Gospel just allow us to fulfill those requirements. God is not separating families, but helping them to go through those naturak requirements. It's like growing a crop, where God tells you what you have to do to have a good crop. You won't blame Him for not following His instructions and not having a good crop.
It's crazy but a number of Christians I've encountered consider eternal marriage to be blasphemous. They accuse us of thinking that being in God's presence isn't sufficient for us
God himself describes our relationship with him in familial terms... maybe that's for a reason 🤔
How interesting, looking forward to this discussion. I have some thoughts about this topic. I will go find the scripture about barely remembering or not being able to remember this existence or this world. I really think that healing and forgiveness and the amazing eternity ahead affects our memories and will be quite different than we think of memories right now in mortality. I want to read scriptures that have anything to do with remembering and forgetting - I think we haven’t focused on this topic of memory or memories enough to fully understand the importance of what we think about and what we try to remember or forget.
We also have a comforting scripture in 2 Nephi 10:2
2 For behold, the promises which we have obtained are promises unto us according to the flesh; wherefore, as it has been shown unto me that many of our children shall perish in the flesh because of unbelief, nevertheless, God will be merciful unto many; and our children shall be restored, that they may come to that which will give them the true knowledge of their Redeemer.
I think we have to some degree made the doctrine of eternal relationality into the doctrine of eternal nuclear families. I think this is understandable because average people can only think in terms of their own nuclear family and also because of the US cultural push towards obsession with the nuclear family in the 20th century. Nuclear families are good. But I think the doctrine of eternal relationality is much bigger and broader than just the idea of you and your immediate family being together. It makes sense of salvation not being just about your sins being forgive in a cosmic transaction but rather make salvation about a real reconciliation between us god and everyone else. It also teaches us that no person exists in isolation, in fact our identity is the sum of our relationships to other people. God saving us apart from our closest relationships wouldn’t be saving us, but rather a different person all together. Redemption and salvation are both personal and corporate. Israel was god setting his example of corporate salvation of a people and Christ to expanded it. Then somehow people made it just about them and God. I think the restoration is a corrective of that shrinking of salvation
Great analysis, Jacob. Well said. Aloha
Aloha!
I never thought about this before but, and correct me if I’m wrong, when you leave the church, your sealing isn’t automatically broken, that requires effort as far as I’m aware, so you can still be sealed to your family after they left the faith unless they seek to cancel the sealing which is a whole process.
Love this video. ❤
DC88 15-22 is a good read. One excerpt from it seems to validate what was said in this video. “He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory”. It is US who separates ourselves from God.
The LDS doctrine of eternal families is not a comforting doctrine for some people. In fact, I know people for whom that doctrine is actually quite traumatic.
Only because they won't follow God. They have their own gods.
The only people it could be tramatic for are people who dont understand it.
It’s traumatic as they might have unpleasant or just cruel family members who they don’t want to be stuck with?
But if all this is true your body and mind will be perfected so these family member’s will be perfect.
@kylethedalek if all of it is true they won't be in a non consensual relationship. All parties would need to actively consent, God isn't going to force someone to be where they don't want to be. So even if everyone wasn't perfected, it would be irrelevant.
Our perspective can change in the next life when we at peace. There is a lot to work out and lots of work to do during the millennium. Thankfully the Lord gives us plenty of time to gather our families together through temple work
You can cultivate deep meaning and connection through significant differences.
I absolutely agree! I feel heartbroken for family and friends that are falling away from what is right and true and the unity we felt because of it.
I have a few children who have left the faith. 2 of them have served missions, and one married in the temple. Another child is an Anti. I lost respect for them, and don’t trust them at all. If they’re not interested in being with me and my wife for eternity, I have no interest in being with them in mortality. If I could un-seal them from me I would do it. They’re all good people, but I won’t waste any more time on them in this life. Hopefully they come back, but doubt they will. I don’t accept their choice, so they’re on their own. I refuse to let them believe that what they’re doing is okay, and tacitly approving it by ignoring their apostasy. Some parents can do that, but I just can’t. They have their agency, and I understand that, but I’m exercising my agency to stand outwardly against them. Apostates are the worst.
Brilliant
Yeah it happened to me through false allegations now they grew up hating me because of the people did it which we're family I haven't seen them in nine years one of my son's in foster care 3/4 allegations and I'm fighting for hymn of last 4 years I would appreciate it if someone could pray for me it's more painful than death it's self😢
The one place everybody, their brother, and the stray demon down the street always thinks they are experts, is the kingdom of GOD, which MOST are either clueless about or deliberately hiding the truth.
10:00 and not only that, but the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms play out in this life. The Celestial minister, and then the terrestrial minister, until the Telestial receive and that raises the whole by the one drop of leven hid in all the measures.
I'm suspending judgment until I hear what Jacob has to say.
Classic Jacob Hansen technique - if the paradigm doesn’t fit- move the goal posts.
The whole point is to fool himself.
and to be super judgey and smug to everyone that can't fool themselves anymore@@mr.peachychandler4470
I think those who inherit the Celestial Kingdom will always retain their relationship to family members who don't. The sealing power will keep those bonds for their sake. However, only those who inherit the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom will have the ability for eternal increase. And I think everyone will be given a fair and just opportunity, and those who "remain single and separate in their saved condition" won't be able to blame the Lord or anyone else.
Those who remain single will, what? Not EVERYONE in tbis life had the opportunity to get married...if they have gone to the temple etc...will have an opprtunity to have marriage and a family
@@motherbug2001 I'm not talking about those who didn't get an opportunity in this life and accept the Gospel. They will be given every opportunity for that. I'm talking about those who, through their own choices in mortal life and the spirit world, inherit the Terrestrial or Telestial Kingdoms. As D&C 132 explains, they will be saved but not exalted, remaining single and separate in their saved condition.
That’s curious, what you say of single peoples. Expand, please.
@@jaredshipp9207 Sorry, We Authentic Christian singles will be in Heaven where Jesus is sitting at the Right hand of the Majestic Glory.
@@davidjanbaz7728 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. - Doctrine & Covenants 76:71-79
Matthew 10: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Is this “translated correctly?”
@@ZelphBones To me all of these kinds of passages that contradict other passages and create huge wastelands of ambiguity into which religious people of various kinds project their own preferences and interpretation...just indicate that Bible-based belief systems are a hopeless mess, including, of course, Mormonism. The Bible is a huge book in which anyone can find justification for virtually anything. The OT is the favorite source of justification for the more tyrannical and violence-oriented people, who use the "law" (as they interpret it) to oppress others in order to facilitate their own accumulations of power and wealth. The NT is more touchy-feely-emo stuff, but the above-cited passages open the door for people to indulge in their OT-oriented freak side, when they want.
The "holy writ" is little more than a Rorschach inkblot pad that reveals much about the psychology of the people interpreting it, while revealing precious little in the way of substantive truth about reality. Mormonism just adds it's own extra books to make it easier for the leaders to come up with even more crap that the general consensus of more mainstream Bible-based religious organizations have traditionally rejected (such as skin-color curses, plural marriage and eternal "family sealings" conditioned upon paying 10% of income to a bureaucracy working out of a huge office building in downtown SLC, as well as a requirement for buying your underwear from the same bureaucracy, among many other odd innovations of Mormonism).
“The church” isn’t an institution. God himself said so in the D&C. It is all those who repent and come unto Christ. It’s a spiritual church because “all things” are spiritual to god.
God doesn't separate us. We separate ourselves from each other. I know everyone says that God is our judge. The thing is we are given our agency to choose for ourselves. Ultimately we judge ourselves based on our life choices. What God does is build kingdoms for us. A telestial person could not live in a celestial sphere of light and would not be happy there. This is my personal take on eternal life. If you are happy living a terrestrial life that is where you will go. God would not force you to live a celestial life. Just like we separate ourselves here we will be in the next life.
Well said. Heavenly Father will allow us to spend our eternity where we want to be and where we'll feel the most comfortable. Is there a more fair path to happiness? I think not.
Actually, yes, God literally does separate us:
"and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats"
Matt 25:33
The devil is the one telling you that we will all be in a place where we will be comfortable. The truth is that there is a hell and many will go there, but especially those who deny it exists.
"And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none-and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance."
2 Nephi 28:22
While I appreciate what you're trying to say here Jacob, the fact is that the LDS church does teach and believe that families can be separated for eternity. A person born in the covenant who makes it all the way to a temple sealing that later leaves the church is now an apostate and will inherit a lesser kingdom. My LDS family mourns that separation here and now, in this life, and it does affect conversations and opinions of people. Their feelings towards the exmo family has soured.
I agree with you that relationships here and now matter more than whatever may or may not come in the next life because we have no proof or guarantee of what is to come. I could even argue that those who have left the church feel this truth acutely! Because they have lost trust in the LDS idea of an afterlife, they live better sweeter lives NOW and don't waste time. They see the value of being kinder and more loving in relationships NOW. Because right now is the only guarantee.
I could say more but this is a very sad thing that causes pain in my mixed faith extended family. I wish the 'levels of heaven' thing was never taught or believed because it does cause pain. Choosing not to believe in it anymore has been a huge weight off my back.
Funny how Jesus never taught about multiple kingdoms of God: he always taught about the 1 kingdom of God.
That’s why the gospel is called “The Plan of Happiness.”
There is so much hope and joy in temple covenants. I’m sealings… at some point, our loved ones will have the choice again if they want to belong to God’s family or not.
It’s such an amazing Plan.
God is so good! 💕☀️
I mena this is the kindest way, but I think this view suffers from myopia. God is so great that our kingdoms and existence will be beyond anything we can imagine now. Additionally, his grace and mercy will change many hearts before judgment happens. Keep faithful my friend.
The church teaches that all people will end up where they will feel the most comfortable and be the happiest. THAT'S what the church teaches.
This reads like a great scripture in Isaiah
"They say to the prophets "prophesy not" and to the seers "see not"
Speak to us smooth things and prophesy deceit"
7:00 this is largely the issue with people who reject the gospel: they don’t understand that ordinances are SYMBOLIC. The ordinance itself is the teacher of the symbolic nature of what God is looking for. Celestial families have more than ordinances performed, but they live what the ordinances teach.
So the ordinances are symbolic? Doesn't that imply that god, the BOM, the plan, jesus, Kolob, etc. are all symbolic? So then what's true? What's with this zany little metaphor? It's nerf or nothin and if the ordinances are symbolic with no physical connection to reality then it's nothin.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 sometimes what we think is literal plays out differently. Natural fulfillment of prophecy for instance does play out symbolically and literally, but not in the way most people think. Example: in the Old testament there were prophecies of Christ’s day that painted pictures that could be thought symbolically, like “not one stone left upon another”, “riding on the back of a donkey” or the “rending of the garment” and the temple veil. They are all symbolic, but have a literal fulfillment. The temple ordinances and the members doing them put them in the symbolic role of Christ: performing work for others that others cannot do for themselves. The sealing of families and the covenant associated with that are conditional based on living and abiding by the words of those covenants and obligations. When people strive for that, they have a greater outlook for celestial marriages. When they break covenants, they tear apart the foundations of their families. That is why the “celestial ministering to the terrestrial and telestial” happens. It doesn’t mean a soul is less valuable because they currently in this life understand things through a Telestial paradigm. When parents hold their covenants solid and firm and live by every word that proceeds forth from God through those ordinances, the effect it has on families can raise the whole as the leaven hidden in the 3 measures of meal that Christ spoke about. God gives light to some and that light is shared and grows brighter and brighter until the perfect dat when all the family is united as one again and we see clearly and not through a glass darkly. 💜💟🙏
so yes, these ordinances are both literal and symbolic. Doing them teaches you and the power God grants and blesses you with for showing your faith is literal. God parting the sea by an east wind is often portrayed as the water vertically going up on either side. But further study of weather patterns and language reveal that the word “wall of water” could refer to a hard floor or barrier. And the East wind would have brought freezing temps likely to create that floor/wall of water on either side enough for the “congealed” floor of water to have the Israelites pass by and then break apart to drown the egyptians in the red sea. Is this the real way the parting of the red sea happened? Who knows. But what people have been taught and what they think of is sometimes not how things really happen literally. But they all happen and God will fulfill all His words.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 Let me pose it to you this way also: The ordinances when done correctly teach different things. Let’s take infant baptism as an example. When people practice infant baptism, what is the symbolism of that ordinance? That God only saves the baptized. Is that true? Is that in line with God’s character? If not, the ordinance is not of God and therefore is a “dead work”. Likewise, some people who marry in the temple just to complete a checklist for their “celestial portfolio” are performing a “dead work” which is discouraged by the scriptures. That work of marrying in the temple counts toward the benefit of the person IF they do the ordinance with full purpose of heart to live by it. And it teaches them how to have a successful family and healthy relationships with family. The temple ordinances teach boundary setting, commandment keeping, relationship building. The fruit of the ordinance can (if a person understands it correctly) bring a celestial life and influence. Infant baptism would not produce that. Even 8 year old baptism if done in a forced way (meaning the child doesn’t want baptism but the parent says ‘well, you have to’) it is no better than baptizing a bag of sand as Brigham Young taught. Children can make simple decisions like baptism, which the symbolism of the ordinance is not a ticket to the celestial kingdom. It is a gate or entry way. Admittedly, some who practice infant baptism in other churches with a symbolism of hope from the parent to the child might be an acceptable ordinance pf faith (not of priesthood) that God might smile upon. But doing that ordinance so that a child doesn’t “end up in hell” is as Mormon ch 8 says is a “mockery of God”.
I hope this helps you understand better. Put shortly: God blesses us for every act of faith we do. Some acts of faith are ordinances, which when done correctly teach us the way to live our life to have a certain desired result. Thus the fulfillment is symbolic and teachable for us, but also literal and gives us more grace for grace to overcome.
@@mr.peachychandler4470 to answer directly about Kolob: it doesn’t matter right now if Kolob is a literal place or not because the symbolism is more important for the fruit it can produce in a person once they grasp the symbolism that is only revealed by the Holy Spirit. I think the general feeling among many members is that it COULD be. And remember, what could be is just as important as what IS. Because if there is a hope that can be attained, only by faith is it achieved. You cannot become a neurologist by playing Mario Kart all day. You actually have to go study and put your faith to action in the hope you desire. And if you have no hope, what are you? What is your purpose in life? To be ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of. Because only those who have enough belief to power them forth into the realm of could can they ever move past the part of faith into the proof.
Interesting. My purpose is to amuse myself. No hope required.
Just and loving God unless you were Job’s wife and children. That was a crazy contest.
The story of Job was an allegory. There is a lot of that in the Bible. It’s important to know that fact so that you don’t dismiss it all, like you appear to be doing.
@@bkgoulding oh really. What’s the moral of the story then? Is it the righteous man always loves god no matter how cruel he is? Is it that women and children are property? Or is the point that god needn’t have any moral fortitude and can gamble away his creation in a back alley bet with one of his jesters? D all of the above. Of coarse Jesus covenant hadn’t happened yet so some how that makes his actions ok.😀
@@harryfve5
You’re cynical, so I’m about to waste my time. Here goes anyway. I’ll make it short:
This story (not history) is symbolic of the test of life from before the world was made to the end. The hypothetical conversation between God and the devil is symbolic of the fact that God does allow Satan to tempt and try us in this life. Job was a good man who did right and therefore had success in everything, professionally and personally. In spite of his goodness, Satan and nature worked against him. He lost everything. Everyone. In his greatest moments of despair, he still kept the faith. He wasn’t perfect, but he never gave up. In the end, which is symbolic of post-earth life, everything and everyone was returned to him, and then some. He lived happily ever after. The end.
Your sarcasm tells me that you never bothered to try to see the obvious and powerful morals in this metaphorical story. Too bad. I find it VERY inspiring. Millions of others do, too. I guess we’re all just idiots and you’re the smart one, but that’s fine by me.
Great message, except the “who changed, you or God?” idea is a false binary. In my experience, the catalyst for faith change is new information.
Converts don’t just join the church out of the blue. Similarly, active members don’t fall away without reason. If we could learn to treat everyone as lifelong investigators instead of betrayers of the truth, we’d enjoy stronger relationships and be better prepared to the further light and knowledge to come that we profess a belief in.
Also "who changed, you or God?" is a classic case of begging the question. Since there is actually no evidence that Mormon doctrines and teachings really came from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent supreme being referred to as "God"...but rather just came from men like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others who claimed they were speaking for such "God", it's a logically ridiculous presumption to frame the question that way. And now, in modern times, we see that probably more than half of the things these men claimed to have gotten from "God" have been demoted by modern "prophets" as being nothing but wrong-headed policies, flecks of history and embarrassments that we "don't know much about". Any scammer can claim that something they want you to do is commanded by God...and then ask you why you are "rejecting God" if you don't play along with their delusional claim.
If I’m living the gospel of faith repentance and baptism, why would God separate me from my family? If I’m living the gospel and my family is, wouldn’t we just end up together? If I was sealed in a temple but didn’t love the gospel, I wouldn’t be with them in the afterlife anyway.
Did you watch the video?
"still it seems to me a fact that it is impossible to achieve a kind of eternal familial unity spoken of by Christ without sharing fundamental paradigms about the meaning of existence." I could make the argument that Christ never taught that temple endowments (our current version) were necessary to salvation (the temple endowment is for personal salvation. extra ordinances that would bar me from celestial glory even if I'm baptized and even if I live the endowment covenants without being endowed , I'd still be out.) I could also make the claim that our version of the endowment was not what the original version was in Kirkland. anyway, this is all to say that the temple endowment is a problem doctrinally and socially/culturally amongst members. The endowment complicates things unnecessarily keeping a strangle hold on the the paradigm of those in the church and their view of those that believe otherwise. if people find out you dont wear garments anymore, you are treated different, even if you still believe everything else about the gospel. @@thoughtfulfaith2020
@@skwirl828 You yourself just admitted that baptism, which is a covenant bound with a symbol (the baptism), is necessary to live with God.
Why do you believe that is true?
Why would God force everyone to be baptized in order to enter into heaven? Why doesn't he just let good people who go to church enter into heaven?
You see, the same argument you use against the doctrine of temples and temple covenants is the same doctrine that you already believe in. LOL
I chuckle when I hear ex members who still call themselves Christians and Christians not of our faith disparage the necessity of making covenants in a temple as a requisite to enter into heaven when they already believe that God requires his disciples to make covenants to enter into heaven.
God is a covenant making God. We see that in the Old Testament and the New Testament.
@@davidfrey5654 I never said the ordinance of baptism wasn’t necessary. It is because Christ taught that it was. And it can also be confirmed over and over again in the scriptures. The endowment cannot. I’m not against covenants with God. I’m against secret sworn oaths which the BOM apposes. You may say the endowment isn’t such, and it may be tamer now, but it was essentially a blood oath for a long time.
@@davidfrey5654 if I am baptized in the church and I live and keep gospel the 5 temple covenants but I did not go through the endowment, am I allowed in the celestial kingdom?
We also mourn the loss of the light and comfort that the gospel is. To know one day we will live again and that all our losses will be made up through Christ. I couldn’t do life without that knowledge. That’s also why many who fall away can struggle with suicide: they reject the premise of hope.
So everyone on the planet not following Joseph Smith is ready to off themselves because they don't have the pure truth, or just those who have left Mormonism?!
Why are you such a miserable, spiteful, heartless Pharisee then? 🤔 # rottenfruit
Not this.
If this is a telestial world, and we, being even less than a person resurrected with a telestial body, can be visited by Celestial beings then why can't those resurrected to that glory not be able to visit those of other glories? It seems to me that telestial beings can't visit terrestrial or Celestial, but not the other way around.
I really like how you explained that its not God seperating us but ourselves because of the choices we are making to not have that be our goal and priority.
This title make me sad, sad for you and for the old believing me.
Elaborate
Well, people believe weird things because they never dear to question themselves.
@@michaelhutchings6602 weaponizing Family relations, fear mongering.
@@davidgafoPeople believe weird things because they listen to the wrong people.
As compared to what?
Ok who claims that god cuts off families.. god does what is right for all of us. If families are cutting off their children because their children are gay..who wants that..by the way. The Uganda situation with non straight people is so cruel and yet the mormon church has been involved there with family virtues and laws there. Why??.
Well, it's often the underlying doctrines and teachings that create the divide...unnecessarily.
Stepping outside of your faith bubble, who can really be faulted for not believing in the irrational "eternal sealing" ordinances of the temple, or the conditions attached to obtaining those "sealings" (e.g. paying 10% of your income to a church bureaucracy headquartered in SLC, buying underwear from the church, not drinking coffee or tea, etc.)?
That whole racket was clearly a case where someone in authority created a fake problem in order to sell a fake solution. For people questioning the biblical narrative (and its very many different and competing interpretations), it's obviously a super weird belief system.
Even for people who are really into the bible, it doesn't make any sense. Supposedly (according to Luke 12:7), God is aware of and keeps track of every hair on everyone's head and monitors every sparrow's life functions closely and in detail...but for some reason can't figure out how to reunite families in the afterlife without a record of them getting "sealing" ordinances done in special buildings built and maintained by the LDS church (said ordinances consisting mainly of a bunch of Masonic handshakes and weird cult-member cosplay activities, involving chanting around an altar, among other things).
When you really have no rational or logical or factual arguments to support an odd belief system that, for whatever reason, you have chosen to devote your life to (purely as a matter of "faith"), the responsibility for not letting your odd belief system divide you from people who choose not to be irrational probably is most properly on your shoulders. Of course the friends and relatives who reject your odd faith, ideally should be willing to meet you halfway. But if you're constantly adopting attitudes of self-righteous condescension toward them and making it clear that you think they have "fallen" (a word repeated numerous times in this video), it can make things more difficult than they need to be. Humbly accept that you're the one choosing the weird (and you should get "CTW" rings to remind you of that)...then accept non-believers as being your equals, rather than seeing them as "fallen" people to be pitied...and you'll probably have better luck.
The biggest thing I've noticed is there are significantly more tension between Mormons who leave and their family members, than there is between Christians who leave and their family members. I've noticed it in real life and the internet. When Mormons leave it's very similar to when someone leaves the scientology religion. When Christians leave, a lot of times Christians operate in ways that aren't manipulative, conniving, or wicked--in other words they are more like Christ. And they are significantly more likely to keep healthy relations and their children are significantly more likely to return to the fold. I'm so jealous of real Christians when I look at how much cult-member abuse is in Mormon families. So sad, so sad, so sad.
its because mormonism is a fraudulent cult and when we who have been born in to the cult and duped our whole lives realize it and want nothing more to do with it, the cult expects those that still believe to defend the cult and ostracize the critics. Normal Christians dont behave that way
Hot take - “eternal families” is not a true doctrine. Eternal family is - we are all brothers and sisters and will all be sealed to each other after time. Being too fixated on your nuclear or extended family misses the mark (yet is still important of course).
this is true, the sealing families thing came with brigham, not joseph, and is connected to polygamy, which we now disregard. the original sealings were not centered around families specifically.
The whole families can be together forever saying just seems odd to me. Because it makes it sound like unless you are a Mormon (which I am) you wont be with your family which is not the case.
"And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God." - D&C 132:13.
In other words, family relationships only last beyond the grave if they are sealed by Priesthood authority. That's precisely why we do temple work, including for the dead. As for those who don't follow this covenant path...
"For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever. - D&C 132:17
That you claim you're a "Mormon", might be the problem. Try rephrasing that if you understand my point. Otherwise your last sentence has little meaning.
Unless people are sealed and keep their covenants they will not be tied together on the other side. Only one Church offers that possibility. It's not that God doesn't love all of us, it's that not all of us love him enough to choose the straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life.
@@WatchingwaitingG2D Is it because they're actually a "member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"? You need to get over this. I was raised in the church and at the time we were all gladly calling ourselves "Mormons".
@@hrv4908 So there's our answer then. If only one person in a family has gone through all the saving ordinances, then they will not be with their family in heaven. That family will be separated.
Personally, I don't care. I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I have several members of my extended family who no longer attend. The ones who just say, "Well, it's not for me". I don't care even a little bit if that is their stance. It's not for them. If it's not for them then it's not for them. The chances of me changing their mind are right at 0.0 because I am not them, only they know themselves.
The ones I have a problem with are the ones who want to preach. The devil is in them. I know the devil is in them because they don't just change religions, they turn their backs on everything that is good in this world. Everything their parents taught them. Everything the US Constitution, Christianity, and Western Civilization has taught them. Everything the devil wants to destroy they want to destroy. Not a shred of doubt in my mind, the Devil is controlling their thoughts.
Very odd that in John 17 Jesus doesn't speak of temple ordinances and celestial laws as the way to bring unity as you did here, and instead he speaks of the nature of His relationship with the Father as the unifying factor. Btw, you have a great family; but yes, we were made to be in right relationship with each other. I imagine what you're experiencing is extremely difficult. I appreciate th r vulnerability of this video.
Jesus doesn't have to. We know that it is a promise given in Malachi 3. It is also a promise given to our Father Abraham. The rituals and ordinances were always understood just like baptism but realized only after the fact.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 what is a promise given in Malachi 3 and to Father Abraham? That his descendants would be unified when they were sealed in the temple?
@@valeried7210 More or less. The Covenants we make in the temple are exact replicas of the promises Abraham and Malachi made to God and the promises God made to them. Both require sacrifice and Priesthood authority.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Abraham was asleep when the covenant was made in Genesis 15. In Malachi 4 the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings. There is nothing about ordinances unifying the people.
@@valeried7210 Do you even know what covenants are and how they are made.
We will know everyone in Heaven and they R ALL OUR Family!
True
So why all the frantic need to discover linage and do temple work?
Why all the hard work and effort to tie and seal everyone together?
@@Allthoseopposed they have a false Gospel and R confused as God puts us in his Eternal family by believing in Jesus Atonement on the Cross ✝️.
Mormons deny the Atonement on Cross( it only happens in the Garden) and refuse to wear it.
@@davidjanbaz7728 Once again, you're commenting on things you know nothing about. We believe the Atonement occurred in Gethsemane, Golgotha, and the Garden tomb. Thanks to modern revelation, we have a better, more complete understanding of the Atonement than anyone.
The day I find one Mormon who operates from real Christian love is the day I will stop criticizing the Mormon church. I've never met a Mormon who has semblance to real Christians. Mormons are always more similar to scientologists.
I'm still trying to figure out how Joseph predicted the Civil War 28 years before it started. You need to slow down, the Restored Gospel is hard to keep up with.
Actually, it's quite obvious. In November 1832, South Carolina held a state convention that passed what is called the "Ordinance of Nullification" pursuant to which South Carolina rejected the federal tariffs of 1828 and 1832, declaring them to be null and void. This triggered the "Nullification Crisis". In late 1832, the potential for civil war was widely discussed and reported on all throughout the United States. Joseph Smith got his "prophecy" on the matter at the very end of December 1832 (December 25 to be exact). This is what became D&C 87. Joseph Smith was basically just commenting on current events and news and presenting his opinion as a "revelation" (basically a bad habit he had developed by then). As it turned out, most of the important details of Joseph Smith's prophecy actually did not turn out to be true. But indeed a civil war did break out almost 30 years later, beginning with an attack on Fort Sumter in South Carolina in April of 1861 (Fort Sumter being the key installation for enforcement of the federal tariffs against South Carolina).
Joseph Smith's prediction was not unique or remarkable. Many people were predicting it at the time, as the build up to the conflict between the southern states and the northern states had been brewing for many decades. The Nullification Crisis in 1832 appeared to be bringing it to the boiling point, but things were then cooled down for a few more decades until they finally erupted into a full-blown civil war in 1861. It was only much later that more recent generations of Mormons (largely ignorant of the historical details) began claiming that Joseph Smith's "revelation" about civil war was an amazing "prophecy".
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Well, the war could have never been fought, but it was. The South could have won, but they lost. The slaves could have never been freed, but they were. It could have not been ALL of the Southern States vs ALL of the Northern States, some states could have stayed neutral and some could have gone to the other side, but it was the southern states vs the northern states. It could have started somewhere besides South Carolina, but it did start there. The South could have decided not to call on aid from England and other European powers, but they did.
Everything Joseph prophesied came true. He could have used words like Grant Lee and Gettysburg, I suppose. That would be more accurate. But even then the Antis would say he just got lucky.
It's too accurate for me. If it was the year before, or even ten years before, then maybe. But twenty eight years in advance? It was a prophecy.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N I compare Joseph to Nostradamus. It helps me figure out what your average person really thinks. There are books and documentaries all over the place about Nostradamus, because your average person believes his quatrains to be prophetic. Joseph's prophecies were ten times cooler than those lame little poems Nostradamus came up with. So I know your average person would be impressed with Joseph if it were not from a 'religious experience'. People today don't want to be associated with 'religious' things. But mysticism and spiritualism and all that are 'cool' and 'edgy' so they follow them. That's how Lucifer works.
@@wes2176 Well, that's a lot of "could haves" (i.e. conjecture) that misses the key point. The point is that Joseph Smith was simply echoing the opinions and predictions that were circulating widely in 1832, centered on South Carolina. Were all the other people who were saying the same things before Joseph Smith also prophets? In the event of a civil war, the northern states were regarded as having a huge advantage due to being highly industrialized and having a much larger population. As it turned out, it was much closer than people predicted. Joseph Smith mainly predicted that it would quickly turn into a global war as a direct result of the southern states getting Great Britain to come to the defense of the southern states and then many other countries would be brought in to then join in the conflict between the southern states and northern states. That didn't happen. (I know some people try to claim WWI and WWII as being the fulfillment of that, but that's not at all what D&C 87 says if you read it with common sense.)
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Yes, a lot of could haves that Joseph got correct. Like guessing heads or tails ten times in a row correctly, it's possible, but very unlikely. Did you actually think about what I typed, or did you just start responding back to me after reading "could have". Because you are supporting Joseph Smith by saying "that's a lot of could haves"
You are just reacting and probably copying and pasting from some third-rate Anti-Mormon webpage.
Even if Joseph had used words like 'Gettysburg' and 'Pickets charge' and 'Rebel Yell' and 'Amtitem' you still wouldn't believe it was prophecy. You want it to not be prophecy so badly, so it's not, even if it is. And you're not even reading my comments anyway.
the doctrine of eternal marriage / family is not christian and in fact it's another false teaching from Joseph smith the false prophet that contradicts Jesus teaching.
Matthew 22:23-34 is PROOF.
the woman who was married 7 times after the death of each of her husband will not be wife to any of them at the resurrection because as Mathew 22:29 states: "Jesus replied, You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. "
This is another proof that mormons don't read the Bible.
They prefer to follow Joseph Smith instead of the teaching of Jesus himself!
And btw, Luke 20:34-35 is another clear passage on the same topic
This is NOT what Jesus is saying. He is saying, in the resurrection there is no marrying (male verb) or being given in marriage (female verb) [note the active, present tense]; for the matters of marriage have already been worked out (during the Millenium and before resurrection).
The point Jesus is making is that the “seven brothers among us [the Sadducees]” who believed not the true gospel of Jesus would remain unmarried- for no marriage has power or effect after this life except those sealed by His power and authority. Therefore they would “remain as angels in Heaven” (didn’t believe in angels, the resurrection, or the gospel of Christ). Therefore, they do err, not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.
Let me offer three additional scriptures:
“What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Mark 10:9)
“It is not good that the man should be alone.” (Genesis 2:18)
“Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 11:11)
Do your homework before you make straw man argument next time
I'd rather believe in the doctrine of eternal marriage and eternal families than in the doctrine that if you don't accept Jesus Christ in THIS life, you're going to burn in hell for eternity. Imagine the BILLIONS of God's children that are supposedly going to be thrust down into an everlasting pit of fire and brimstone, even if they never had the chance to listen to the full gospel message. That's what evangelicals and protestants believe. Now THAT is an ugly false doctrine.
The lowest IQ interpretation of that verse went mainstream.
@@HaleStorm49 that is all Mormonism's mainstream is; pathetically low iq.
Families ARE forever -
That's Mormon doctrine.
But the part about FOREVER applies only if you you are FOREVER a faithful member.
There is NO reward from God for the unfaithful and the wicked.
And by the way ... "faithful member" does not necessarily mean perfect.
That's why repentance exists.
We achieve perfection - in part - via repentance.
Repentance achieves wholeness and oneness with God, and we are indeed commanded to be PERFECT. But God of course knows this will not be achieved in an earthly existence.
This earthly life is our second estate. Our first estate was with God before birth. Our third estate will be our existence following death, following our Judgement, and following our resurrection.