How To Talk Your Uncle Out of QAnon | Offline with Jon Favreau
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- Beth Goldberg joins Offline to discuss her work at Jigsaw, the misinformation-tackling team at Google that’s been called “the Internet’s justice league.” Goldberg walks Jon through the dos and don’ts of drawing your Q Anon cousins, election-denying uncles, and vaccine-skeptic grandmas out of their conspiracy rabbit holes this Thanksgiving. By pre-bunking, seeding doubt, and listening with compassion, together we can hash it all out.
00:00 - Intro
01:03 - Interview start
01:43 - How to talk to QAnon believers at Thanksgiving
04:40 - The internet’s relation to conspiracy theories
11:38 - Ad break
14:25 - How and why people leave QAnon
21:15 - Tips & tricks to effectively talk to conspiracy theorists
27:52 - What is prebunking?
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One of the reasons I became an atheist, (secular human) years ago is that I was introduced to Carl Sagan and his writings. His book " Demon Haunted World: Science as Candle in the Dark" changed my entire life. In the book he discussed his "baloney detection kit" in dealing with what today we call conspiracy theories. Brilliant advice and I use it all the time these days. That said I was a mild Christian and a Republican until I heard Bush announce that he would invade Iraq because God told him it was the right thing to do. So I voted for Obama and left the church. Also left my abusive Christian husband. Then I went back to college at age 50. I am 68 now and still learning but all of my family refuses to talk to me at all, except for my incredible daughter. She was bullied all through school because she was smart and an atheist, but then she got a free ride to UC Berkeley, then to Yale and is now a forester helping to make sure the forests of California don't burn as much as last year. Ya proud mom.
You should be very proud of yourself and your wonderful daughter. Happy Thanksgiving!
🎉 congrats for your journey let’s lift up each other and future generations
Thank you for raising such a selfless and compassionate daughter. I live here in California and VERY much appreciate the fact that this year has been less burnt than previous years!
I also read many of Sagan's book. When I've been confronted by a overtly religious relative I've said to them, "you believe that because you live in a Demon Haunted World. I do not."
I was raised Catholic with is pretty politically middle of the road. But my parents drifted into Evangelical circles where politics is baked in. So now their religion and political ideologies have melted into an alloy that allows their politics to be justified by the divine. You know...like the Taliban.
Amazing story. I went Cal and then to UCSC later in life. So I'm not Bear but Slug. My dad was at Yale Bulldogs as I recall. Peace.
I would love to see those videos in a school curriculum! Teaching children this coupled with research skills and critical thinking would be phenomenal!!!
Devil's Advocate: Now your trying to indoctrinate our youth.😠
Maybe try another approach.🤔😉
I agree that learning proper research skills leads to critical thinking but the emphasis should be on understanding both sides of an issue and a consensus of what the facts are and the reliability of your sources. Whether it lines up with deep rooted beliefs or not. Origin of species is a prime example.
Very few people know anything about Q. They know the basics of anything- it's all based on how they 'feel'- Big Surprises coming soon!
Great point. I believe that the difficulty is the "ultimate" challenge is critical thinking about religion.
Doesn't go over too well with many folks
They've already dumbed down people enough don't you think? Most of what the left is claiming is 'disinformation is simply truth that they don't like.
@@UserName_no1 I agree that both (all?) sides are important to see, but in this case, I don't see multiple sides. The pre-bunking videos (taking just the example shown today) might only be pointing to persuasive/communication/marketing strategies used, like the appeal to emotion (pathos). All persuaders, of all political and commercial stripes, use them. This is "just" media literacy specifically targetted to certain social/political persuasion ads. As for "indoctrination of youth", I'm a Vancouver, BC teacher, and I've personally never (yet) had to confront this mindset. The closest we've come is just recently, when we had someone running for our school board who was transphobic and anti-LGBTQ+ and they didn't even come close to winning a seat.
I treat my Q family like the addicts they are. Lots of love, lots of boundaries, and lots of distance.
Heavy on the distance. Greetings from Indonesia.
This is effective + very wise advice.
But super difficult when the addict is your child, or the mother of your beloved grandchildren.
However, Qism is evidence of weakness & fear, imo; addiction is not.
How do you address when they show you evidence that the left is lying? Do you just ignore the truth?
Q seems very cultish, those group meetings and the slogans, a sense of belonging
@@freedomofreligion3248
QAnon is a cult, or at least ticks a big number of boxes towards being a cult. Cults aren't easy to leave, even the ones that don't lock the door.
That's because the same MENTAL addiction processes are at play.
Physical addiction, no, but...
I'm sure you're aware of gambling addiction as a thing?
I strongly suspect there's behavioral addictions at play.
Pretty sure behavioral addiction causes brain rewiring. I'd skim some research blurbs, but it's 920 A.M. here.
Basically, the brain only grows new neurons slowly, so any addiction takes _a good while_ to get past. (If you do.)
Ms. Goldberg is a fascinating woman who has a lovely presence on camera. As I listened to her, numerous questions popped up in my head which I regard as a sign it's a good interview. Nice job, Jon. Make sure to bring her back - she's got a lot to tell us.
She looks demented and sounds deranged. You lefties really are off the deep end.
I was thinking the same thing. There is something very genuine and soothing about the way she speaks.
“The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie.” - Mark Twain.
I hadn't read that quote before. I like it.
True, but how do you respond to these people when they show you actual evidence that the left is lying? Do you just ignore them? How long can you ignore the science? Doesn't that make you the fool? Why not listen to both sides and adjust your opinion based on reality?
@@ryanellsworth7246 SO MANY QUESTIONS, SO LITTLE TIME, SO IN ORDER TO ANSWER ALL OF THEM, WHAT IS THIS ACTUAL EVIDENCE THE LEFT IS LYING? YES, YOU IGNORE LIES NO MATTER WHO TELLS THE TALE, BEST I REMEBER ITS THE REPUGLIKKKLAN PART THAT DENIES ALL SCIENCE, BUT GOOOOO ONNNN, I BELIEVE FROM YOUR QUESTIONS THAT YOU ARE THE FOOL, AND WHY DONT YOU ADJUST YOUR OPINION BASED ON REALITY? “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti- intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ― Isaac Asimov
Excellent, how about another show on deprogramming your uncle from corporate-Dem brainwashing propaganda, that deceives Dem voters into believing that Dems are not corrupt corporate puppets who block the will of the people, in order to protect corporate interests
Heeey On my UA-cam channel i do food reviews while I’m super high
I love this. As a behavioral health professional it sounds like straight-up motivational interviewing. The goal is not confrontation, but rather to encourage the person you are working with develop their own changes.
Yes. The changes YOU want them to have.
The first and only flat earther I met was trying to convince the dinner party on his beliefs. I sat for a long time in disbelief as I listen to him. When he finished I just asked, so if I set up something like the Hubble telescope in NY I could see Europe. If looks could kill. He turned red faced and left the party.
Your mistake was trying to debunk their belief with logic. Maybe you should have approached the subject from how they obtained that point of view in the first place. For instance, have they ALWAYS believed the Earth was flat or did they change their mind at one point? Do they believe that all planets and stars are flat?
Good one. I like to offer a million $ to anyone who can find the edge of the Earth.
@@meghan42 The guy who found it fell off and there went the proof along with him.😆
@@UserName_no1 LOL
Very good. I used to tell them that if the Earth was flat, the edge would be a HUGE tourist attraction. I'm considering switching to, "If the Earth was flat, cats would push everything off the edge". It's been a long pandemic, and all those cat videos are sooo tempting ...
As a licensed counselor (MA) who grew up around the evangelical and militia movements that became m@ga, I really appreciate this episode! I’ve been saying this for several years, but I don’t have a platform (considered writing or podcasting around these themes, but always talked myself out of it... is Jigsaw hiring? lol, but seriously...). I hope people can internalize the key points in this interview and aren't too fused with their own biases/beliefs and desire for a simple quick fix to actually accept this assessment and the implications for interventions. That hasn't often been my experience, but maybe enough things have happened that more are ready to hear it now.
Also, themes discussed here get at what still frustrates me about the Rachel Maddow episode, how they left out the New Deal’s impact on the environment that made the hearings successful. Economic stability meant people weren’t in constant fight/flight/freeze, and could move on with their lives, build communities outside of hate, and see the facts for what they were. I’m sure at least some portion of republicans fight against social spending because they understand their rhetoric won’t work on followers if they aren’t in a constant precarious state of being; fanatics might be a different story, but they’re a much smaller minority.
Social spending? You mean sending billions to finance actual Nazis in Ukraine, and having some of it kicked back to themselves? That kind of social spending?
@@guacamolekid3899 That's a weird straw man, can't even imagine the jumps in logic you needed to get there. Obviously, I was referring to domestic social spending. WTF does that have to do with Ukraine? Do you think Ukraine is somehow domestic to the US? Or were you just trying to distract and change the subject?
@@allyson87 The vax is the same exact thing- how many leftists took the crap on faith without knowing anything about what it would do to them or what was in it. The same goes for every single issue- Q is no different. The subject is that this gal's uncle is right and she's wrong. All these people are SO smug but NEVER really check stuff out on their own- they believe the fact checkers- all these liars. What do you know about the ACT of 1871? And how does that relate to what we are going through right now in history? MUCH more to all of this they're telling you all. But, the programming won't let you consider anything outside your approved boundries.
The problem I have is I am the isolated one. This is not my reality. Much of my family is Republican and they don’t have the family turning against them, they’re turning against me. Especially because of my view of masks. Even my democrat sister and father think I’m too hardcore worrying about Covid
@@Nortarachanges The battle lines are drawn between 2 factions- the globalists and the populists- the globalists want a one world government- green new deal- social credit system- there would be no such thing as individual rights in that system- the Populists, which are the conservatives and the liberals with some common sense, want a free and independent country that follows our own Constitution.
The dems and the rinos are all in with the globalists. Do you really want a one world government?
America really needs adequate, affordable health care. So much of the pain Americans are going through would be lessened if more people had the option to see a therapist. Great podcast, keep them coming :)
Poverty, wealth gaps, poor education - all of these contribute to so many of America's problems, and that's exactly how Republicans and conspiracy pushers want it
A whole lot of pain would be alleviated if people could get the healthcare they need without going bankrupt. Most people who have fallen for the Q and NESARA scams which have become one now are poor people. Most are older too. There’s a lot of desperation. The idea of having their debts forgiven and getting free money and magic beds that cure everything that ails them really appeals to these people.
I have cancer and have mountains of healthcare bills now and will have a lot more even with insurance paying a lot of it. It sucks. Everything is so expensive. I’ve had surgeries, done chemo, am doing radiation now and the plan is to do a massive all day surgery with several doctors in the room six weeks after we finish these radiation treatments. Chemo was six grand a week but then I had to get this bone marrow shot 24 hrs after I finished chemo and that one shot was $20,000 and I did this every other week for 24 weeks. Then there’s all the expensive imaging and other tests and of course the ridiculously expensive medicines I have to take.
If I survive I’ll take pancreatic enzymes and insulin for the rest of my life. Those enzymes are close to ten bucks a pill and I’m supposed to take two with every meal and one with every snack. I probably won’t survive though. Pancreatic cancer kills something like 95% of the people who get it. I’ve made a lot of money and have paid an awful lot into the system but odds are I don’t make it the seven years it will take for me to be old enough to qualify for Medicare or the five years it will take for me to collect some of that social security I’ve been paying into for all these decades. Instead I’m fighting with an insurance company that keeps screwing us over, always refusing to pay for something. For instance on two surgeries so far they covered the surgery but not the anesthesiologists because their group isn’t under their plan. That’s has happened to my wife too. I had to fight like crazy to get the expensive pancreatic enzymes that have helped me come from looking like a guy just rescued from a concentration camp to a healthy person at a healthy weight. I was starving even though I was eating because my body wasn’t digesting and absorbing nutrients. I hate insurance companies and our damned rigged healthcare system that isn’t really a free market system. They price gouge the hell out of us.
Therapy should not just be free, it should be mandatory. and therapists should be high quality
I have a friend in GA whose husband had to be covid vaccinated because of an organ transplant. Early on. She's still waiting for his DNA to change, making him a freak, I guess...how sad.
Well to be fair, how could one tell? I mean, he's from Georgia, ya know what I'ma sayin?
@@pakde8002 you think the vaccine will turn him Floridian?
@@pakde8002 That's not very nice...😆
...But now I have a mental picture of anti-vaxxers talking to me, and saying "Oh, you got vaxxed, THAT'S why you're so weird!"
...Then having to say that...no, dude, this was baseline for me for a long time before the covid shots...
@@RobBCactive some people in Floriduh will smoke meth but won’t take a vaccine 🤔
@@RobBCactive
...No. That takes movers.
It's frustrating that we are the ones that have to do all the work. It takes truck loads of empathy and that is in short supply these days it seems.
I have an older brother who I used to idiolize as a kid. As we got older, he would tell me about vegetarianism and exercise, I would listen with bated breath. Then these conversations turned to George W Bush did 9/11 and Obama is an illuminati under control of Monsanto. When my father was diagnosed with dementia during the pandemic, I had enough and threatened him woth violence if I ever saw him again since he was trying to convince our elderly parents not to take the vaccines and maybe take silver homeopathic drops to kill Covid... I still am angry at him and have not talked to anyone in my family because I am the "angry libtard" who works in tech, and frankly my father was the only person in my family I cared about and he is effectively "gone". I fantasized about using Beth's recommendations but I don't think I have the patience, sadly. I told my wife I will just wait and hope my brother's crazy beliefs die with him someday soon.
I think Empathy is like Love. You DO it. It doesn't just happen. You simply DO it. Set your mind to it and just DO it.
I have seen true believers do a lot of work reaching out. It's a bit like hanging out with a Scientologist, each trying to find common ground with the other while knowing the other thinks one has huge blinkers on.
Sometimes family finds more comfort in the fantasy than the hard work required to live in reality. And the worst part is knowing that every day spent not talking to them is a day wasted, but they're so far gone you gotta set sky high boundaries just to protect your mental health. I miss them so much sometimes. Other times hate them for becoming the person they are now. Most of the time I try to forget about them, and take care of my immediate circle. Either way it's fucking terrible. I never stop missing them.
Great discussion. I really like the idea of prebunking. I have thought often that we need to educate people about the rules of power and other ways people have been deceived/manipulated in politics, advertising, etc. We are indoctrinated in childhood with things like 'always trust authority figures/doctors, etc' and then wonder why we as adults fall for hypocrisy from authority figures, famous people or systems of power. We need to teach discernment to our children.
Good point...and I like your name even better!
@@NEbluefire agree, and it's part of our culture to be angry at those who even dare question authority, EVEN if we all know the authority is corrupt, purchased by greedy billionaires and so wrong that they don't follow their own advice and do the opposite for nearly everything they claim they support.
@@NEbluefire Unless we on the Left Are Medical Professionals. It's always nice to know a Healthcare Professional advocate.
So does that include the authority figures who are teaching what you want them to be taught? I mean you're cleaning that authority figures indoctrinated children and your solution is to change the indoctrination to distrust authority figures but how can they distrust authority figures if they are being taught by authority figures. Are your authority figures just the right kind of authority figures? Have they demonstrated that day or more you mean that they know what they're doing? I don't think so I think they'll just cause a different set of problems and if you think the United States government is in trafficing children you're insane. Epstein was recruiting three girls a day. He was protected by American intelligence and he always has been. I'm not saying qn people aren't crazy but I am saying that the idea that the government is secretly running a massive child trafficking ring is not far-fetched because it's completely true that's what Victoria's secrets models were. That was owned by Epstein's biggest contributor a guy who put him in charge of his billion dollars multibillion dollar fashion empire. To act like the government is in traffic and children it's just ridiculous at this point.
There is a secret cabal running things. The NSA the FBI the CIA are not supposed to be political actors they always were but now they are trying to decide everything they possibly can because Trump broke their minds Trump was revolt against policy decisions like globalization which were tremendous unbelievable mistakes alsoever revolt against or is it going on forever kill enormous amounts of people and do not result in any type of improvement to any situation. Trump is a narcissist a****** he also proved that the American government is like an emperor without any clothes. It's institutions have been captured by corporations libertarian ideologues neocon warmongers and policy that the American people know nothing about is waiting in the wings to be rolled out when the next crisis occurs. The world economic forum is not a democratic institution it is an oligarchic institution. Our politicians should not be going there they represent us they don't need advice from the richest people in the world who's obvious motivation will be to preserve their wealth first and foremost beyond any other considerations. They are trying to make the poorest people in the world pay for the destruction of climate change the day themselves profited from enormously. They are the ones who introduced chemical fertilizer and all but forced everyone to use it now they want to take it away. They are the ones who preached industrialization and took the natural resources of third world countries and now want to tell peasants that they can't drop down some trees and Amazonia so that they can have a little plot of land. The hypocrisy of these people is just unbelievable.
Exactly...their feelings don't care about your facts.
This isn't just true of Conspiracy Theory believers, it's true of a lot of people.
The annoying thing is, it's a TON of work to figure out why they're motivated to believe what they believe.
I'm too old and jaded for that sh1t most of the time.
Most of the time, unless it's about something important, like losing social security or Medicare.....or democracy itself.
Then it becomes worth the time. I've in this fight since Nixon, so I'm with you on being tired of this BS...but I still try to influence some of the people in my life because I reaaally like democracy. These authoritarian goons aren't going anywhere, but there are some things that are worth the time it takes to talk with someone, or post something online.
I've seen the motive, at least for some, in their eyes when I honestly talk w them.
They show great satisfaction in being privy to secret, vital knowledge, while the rest of us are blind "sheep", foolishly stumbling along. It seems to be a self-esteem issue? Projection is a feature of these folks.
Yes that’s similar to people telling me something about a medical condition they just looked up on google. It amazes me. I guess they think my vet school or professors should have taught me that
This is especially true for people that our society has left behind. It's not that billionaires CAN'T fall into this stuff ... but its a lot more common with folks on the lower rungs. The "secret knowledge" is something that seems accessible and let's them feel special. Which is important when the rest of society is constantly running them down in one way or another.
totally agree. I think they’re people who always felt a bit stupid at school and now they feel like the smart ones. It’s why debunking with facts doesn’t work. Making them feel stupid again just makes them dig in harder.
@@therealjetlag I agree. The education system organises people with the more qualified getting more respect. So if you left school early, you have no credibility and will never be asked to speak at a seminar so the belief that you have some insider insight that the educated boffins don't have ... that's a real boost to your self-respect and it's a revenge on all who have unwittingly made you feel disrespected. Suddenly you can feel superior to those educated people because you have insights that they just can't grasp.
But then if I explain to my coworker that they’ve been working on this vaccine for years so that they could plug the genetic sequence into it and come up with a quick vaccine, they say, “Ooooooh.” and go right back to saying the same conspiracy stuff the next day. They LIKE the conspiracy stuff better
Next time try seeing if they know how vaccines came into being and how they have evolved over time.
No doubt if you tried to explain to our founding fathers about assault weapons (or any modern technology for that matter) of today they would have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. Or what they would be used for. Chances are they would have worded the 2nd Amendment differently.
I know a woman who's mom called her with the vaccine conspiracies & she reminded her mom she worked for the lab that was making the vaccines. She still wouldn't let it go.
Yes - it's no fun if everyone else is smarter, better informed, and potentially the hero of the movie.
Right; because that information doesn't outweigh the mountains of evidence that Pfizer hid data on side-effects from the FDA and from the public. You can't make those documents go away by adding an additional fact which doesn't debunk them.
As a therapist, emotional language and language in general is the most underrated manipulative tool I've encountered.
What if Q is 'real'- I mean, what if it's a special forces operation? Did you know that Trump signed a last-minute executive order before he left office that had to do with 'shadow government'? Governance and Integration of Federal Mission Resilience. Why would he do something like that on the way out the door?
Language is our first attempt to reach past our grasp, no?
One of the things I've tried to inoculate myself against (and try to not ever use myself) is the evocation of disgust, loathing, revulsion, fear of sickness and so on, because it's so easy to emotionally manipulate others with it.
@@KlausJLinke Leftists are at a 3rd grade level of understanding of any issue. They know what they feel, but they don't know anything real- that's what happens when one shuts themselves off from the truth.
@@guacamolekid3899 LOL ... Sigmund Freud's patient: _"I don't know who the woman in my dream was, but she definitely wasn't my mother."_
I hope this approach can help others. My mother and step-father are 20 years deep into every conspiracy out there. They are unreachable, at this point. The well has been poisoned.
i have a daughter who watches Fox all day. :(
My mom and stepdad drank the kool aid. The fake garbage they believe is insane
My in-laws are devote MAGA supporters. My mother who has battled major depressive disorder, major anxiety disorder & social anxiety since long before I was born(I’m fixing to turn 40). And over the past 7-8yrs she has developed the early phases of dementia. I made the mistake of getting her a tablet & introducing her to UA-cam. She *always* sees the negative in literally everything due to major depressive disorder & refusal to try and correct or at least balance her view on even the little things. She has been strongly religious…which in the US deep Southern Baptist church…that means over focus on Revelations & “end times”. So *now* I can see that of course she would be drawn to online “pastors” & groups constantly proclaiming the end times are here. Also bring Republican & her natural tendency to see/believe in the negative of everything…she would be drawn into believing the alt-right conspiracies. Due to other experiences & lack of other experiences my mom has real issue with people disagreeing with her as she takes it as calling her a “liar” &/or “stupid”. Also her instant knee jerk response is to argue/verbally fight over her being right while refusing to even hear much less consider what the other person is saying bc she is busy thinking of the next thing she is going to say. All of which is made worse by her memory/cognitive issues. So now it’s virtually impossible to discuss literally *anything* with her. BC she feels like “knowing” something most others “don’t” shows her intelligence & also bc she spends 90% of her time listening/reading info about conspiracies mixed with end times/dooms day she has little else to discuss…no matter the original conversation topic she eventually links/changes it to conspiracies/religion. And she lives with us…it’s extremely difficult. Especially with my childhood trauma often winning in coloring my reactions.
Also doesn’t help being a non-Republican, non-trump supporter, non-conspiracy believer & purely Bible based vs solely/mostly preacher based Christianity, etc in the extreme deep South in America aka almost pure extreme MAGA land.
@@voirworks6002 I try & will keep trying but nothing has stuck so far. 😕
@@roguewolf7053This sounds like my parents soon. It’s my mom who is showing early signs of dementia. My dad is the one who has always been depressed, cynical, angry, and verbally abusive toward my mom - a lot like Trump but without most of the power. Since the Trump era began, they have become increasingly enmeshed in the UA-cam conspiracy videos and Fox News, plus perhaps other sources that I don’t know about and they are hiding. These factors plus my own childhood trauma are making it very hard to interact with them. I have been taking a bit of a break, but I know that a break can easily stretch out into an estrangement. I don’t want to be estranged in their twilight years, but with my own sane and loving family to look after as well, I don’t feel up to interacting with my parents. I don’t have an answer except to keep putting one foot in front of the other, but there’s no rush. We can only do our best with the emotional and financial resources we have.
My experience has been that when someone in a cult begins to question the dogma in even a small way and they are treated by their own community as vile, the lightbulb can go on. 'Cause friends don't gang up on friends.
Yes. that's exactly why I stopped being a democrat. I was like, 'Hey, guys, making open death threats to Nick Sandmann isn't okay'. And the responses were blood-curdling. Like the guy who said, without any shame, that we need to cull the bloodlines of Trump supporters. When I asked, what if someone in his own family supported Trump, he doubled down. That's when I knew, 'I don't want to go to the other side, but I have a moral obligation to not stay here anymore.'
I do work in persuasion every single day. I teach white people to recognize racism. In Michigan.
To me the first task is to create affinity. I do that through talking about the surprising facts about myself. Things that break the stereotypes about Lefties... like I have a concealed pistol license and voted for John McCain when I lived in Arizona.
The second is to see and hear other people. This is a technique. Mirror body language, make eye contact, match energy, and use their words back at them. If they call me a libtard, I call myself that, too. It removes the power behind it and makes it a joke. That creates affinity.
Then listen. Listen well. Listen to how people describe the problem. No judgment. Just listen. Accept their experience as legit and real. We say that when people of color describe their experiences of racism or when women describe harassment. Believe people's experiences. Don't counter with an argument or facts. That's not what they are talking about. They are talking about feelings. Those are real. That's what Trump did and what we never understood.
I worked on Hillary's campaign in rural Michigan. Paid staff, not a volunteer. I had to do this then and I do it every day. It is effective.
Nice! Greetings (and thank you) from Kzoo!
Excellent comment, thank you. One might also consider passing this video along.
@@mossydog2385 yep. I just emailed my team a link. We need to make Booster videos. Lol.
Have you tried showing them your teeth so they will know you're not a lizard? I have people in my group who have had their heads checked for horns. Thank you for trying to teach racism to people who rely on other people not even being human.
@@intercat4907 not yet. But I did have people pull me aside and offer to walk me to my car. They feared for my life. And, honestly, I questioned whether I wanted to continue this work. But then I thought about some of the people I know who can't just decide to not be who they are. I realized that even considering whether to continue doing this work was a privilege. I decided to walk the talk. I'm 54 with $200k in student loans. Fuck it.
"Life of Brian" came out in 1979 and the big running joke throughout was the conspiracy-mindedness back to the time of Jesus.
When he jumped off the wall and crashed through the alien spaceship...AMAZING!!
It’s a shoe!!!
"Now, you listen here! He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! Now, go away!"
There was also that great scene where they mocked the man who was trying to insist that he was a woman.
I learned critical thinking skills from my parents when I was a kid. Very useful, got "innoculated" early.
The only other who tried to teach critical thinking was my philosophy 101 course in college. It was cool and my professor was great, but critical thinking skills should be taught in public school. High school at the latest.
I was very fortunate to go thru a couple of years of critical thinking courses in high school. An unusual privilege which impacts my life daily.
Point of note about what you guys said about not just pointing out facts, because it doesn't really help, you are in fact more correct than you think. It is not only not likely to help, but it is VERY much likely to have the reverse effect. When something is important to someone, they will treat anything that questions it like an attack not just on it, but themselves, and they will respond by withdrawing and in fact believing their view is more correct.
This has been called the backfire effect, and it explains a lot of very illogical beliefs. People arguing against them actually causes them to believe it harder in response, and the more irrefutable the facts, the harder they will push back. This happens for everyone, and no one is entirely immune, but many will have their logic override that compulsion. But not everyone.
Wonder if religion (faith) and conspiracy beliefs have any statistically strong relevance?
Conspiracy theorists in my life all have stronger degrees of faith than others.
There's certainly a correlation, but I think it's shy of causation.
Isn't Religion/Dogmatic belief a conspiracy theory?
Yes, Religious Zealots are definitely prone to believing more conspiracy theories than the general population. It's another escape mechanism.
No doubt. But the one time they deviate from those beliefs is when they have to rely on modern medicine to save their lives or that of their loved ones. Excluding the likes of Mennonites or the Amish of course.
Definitely. Religious folks are usually authoritarian personalities. They look for a strong appearing leader. Especially Evangelicals and Christian Fundamentalists. It makes sense when you think about it. If something can't be easily explained, it must be God's will. Or whatever your Pastor told you was God's will.
We all need lots of this. She's great.
Wow wow wow! This is the best information on this topic I’ve heard. Amazing to see such a brilliant, young person helping us all to navigate this misinformation plague. You go girl with all that brilliance! I’ll be sharing this everywhere! And thank you, because the worry about Thanksgiving is real….but this is helpful.
Don't worry, you don't need to check anything out for yourself- just take their word for it- they never lie.
How to act blue: Hire the most violent long gun open carry people you can find to burn, loot, and kill;
hire chynah trollfarms to lie about Republicans, and insult working America 100 times per minute on social media;
ignore the terror Texas towns and ranchers are living, while being OUTRAGED if a cop shoots back at a criminal;
then lean back with your Birkenstocks up, have a toke, smile innocently, and say, "Let's be kind to one another."
I’m dying to truly discover at least one of the plethora of conspiracies that the government has pulled off on the clueless public. We are in need of civics education even in preschool to allow us to realize how implausible it is to believe that government can pull off such chicanery. As you said, “…a one car parade ain’t easy to do.”
Define a conspiracy to you? If I say something that is a known government plot(like bay of pigs), would that not count since “it’s common knowledge”. Or would u want to hear completely new information and be convinced to believe it?
Even though the bay of pigs proves conspiracies.
Yeah, it's all bullshit. Like how, the government never started a war in Iraq based on a lie about weapons of mass destruction. The government never told people that DDT was harmless. Nixon's men never broke into the Watergate hotel.
I must admit I have lacked patience and empathy with my family at times..... mostly out of shock....
Shock and awe. Because when I hear some of the things they say, I'm just flabbergasted that people I know and love, and even people I don't know (and don't really know how intelligent they are-or are not), say and believe the things they do. Because NONE is backed up with ANY PROOF. They believe SO HARD in this stuff with ZERO evidence. But expect proof that these lies and the propaganda, are not true? I'm just in wonder of HOW I'm supposed to prove something DIDN'T happen?
@@randibgood YES! EXACTLY! I Totally relate. I've found it easier to 'write them off' and just move on. Life is too short to deal with all this 'Q-razy' nonsense.
@@tthom2459 Well, I am not happy about losing my patience. It's not good for the family, country or society, in the long run.
to each his own. Life is short. I choose not to waste mine dealing with them.
@@belkyhernandez8281 this is an incredibly thoughtful thing to say. Set some boundaries and continue loving your family. You get one set of blood relatives.
Sometimes when dealing with political conspiracy theorists, I ask them how they survived Jade Helm.
Street epistemology can help too. In his early youtube videos, Anthony Magnabosco asks people how sure they are of their beliefs, and asks them to rate how sure, and how, and why they determined this, etc. It's possible to ask people about their beliefs without confronting them directly. Even though it is often used to ask people about religion, it can be used to get people to reason about any belief.
I do this all the time! "Shouldn't you be in a FEMA camp right now? #jadehelm"
Fascinating interview. I'll use this advice in dealing with multiple people in my life. I've saved this to my library so that I can return for a pep talk.
I hate to say it but there’s one in my family… some conspiracy theorists are just angry, anti-empathy turd bombs looking for an excuse
Some are real, and a lot of these smug, spoiled little brats are going to owe some people some apologies by the time this is over. The globalists are GREAT at one thing- dumbing people down- WAY down.
I suggest that you ask him/her for help with some area that she really has an understanding of e.g. "What flea collar should I get for my dog?" Or "How do you get warm on these really cold days?" That person may feel he has little to offer so the conspiracy theories prop up his self-esteem. Knowing she's appreciated in some other area may help a bit. Or at least it stops the flow of nonsense for a while.
@@tracesprite6078 thanks. i wanted to tell you that in this case he has a massive ego and it all comes from literally feeling that most people are worthless and don’t deserve help, including healthcare, so there’s not much to be said… he just likes the hate i think.
@@goodnessthentruth Yep, I've come across that type and they are like a brick wall but uglier. Like all creepy things, best left alone!
"some conspiracy theorists are just angry, anti-empathy turd bombs"
Have you ever considered that maybe it's your problem, viewing people who disagree with you with such childish contempt?
Some people ARE irredeemable. I avoid them and certainly wouldn’t have Thanksgiving dinner with them!
Love this episode! So insightful and renews a bit of optimism!
Not my crusade. An old friend came back unvaccinated and unmasked from height-of-pandemic Florida. He chose to sleep on the streets rather than accept quarantine at my house. The day he got back, he came in my house without telling me because he wanted to talk face to face with my only grandchild, who was too young to be vaccinated. Yeah, he wanted to be part of the community, but I know how much he values the people in it. No MAGAts at my table, bless their hearts.
Are you actually entirely unaware of all the mountains of research showing that your friend was right? It's established beyond doubt that masks do not prevent transmission of respiratory illnesses, and the mRNA shots were worse than useless are preventing transmission. Also, children were at the lowest risk of catching or facing serious effects from covid. You should contact your friend and apologize to him.
Thank you for this conversation, particularly right now!
My best conversation with people who believe the child pedofile ring is this: "You have evidence this is happening? Why haven't you gone to the authorities?"
I've actually talked about that before and what I heard back was "you don't know who you're messing with they could off you(I'm scared for my own life, forget the children!)"
@divine light
Lol, they’re so full of it
As she said, there's always a seed of truth to most conspiracy theories. There is massive human trafficking happening which includes children. But Ellen Degeneres, for one example, is not drinking the blood of children. Neither are Democrats, as another example. (Or Oprah)!
Evidence & truth don’t matter to them.
We all saw what happened to Epstein’s clients … absolutely nothing. So why wouldn’t people believe there is a powerful evil group of men out there? I mean, there obviously is. Just enough truth gets mixed in.
I am going to go out on a limb and say that telling left leaning/progressive people that they should try to engage with their Q-anon family members is just really bad advice. I thought so when a guest on another recent podcast said it, too. Some of these people are dangerous and only want to fight and cause psychological and emotional harm. The onus is not on their family members to take their bait, ever, but especially not at a holiday.
yeah I agree, and I disagree with the guest there are definitely people who are irredeemable. Imagine having a conversation with MTG - pass the potatoes No thanks there are so many other alternatives
Choose your battles. Some things are important....like retaining democracy....some ain't, unless your uncle is headed to a pizza parlor with a gun, then it's time to call the police.
A lot of the really lost ones are only going to come out of the woods on their own.
I'd say, leave a way back for them...but until they choose to take the path back to reality-based living, you're only hurting yourself trying to be around a belligerent person.
Why do that?
Establishing a "no politics or religion" rule at gatherings is an option for any relatives who'll not go off anyway, in whatever direction.
P.s. I'm pretty left wing, quite mentally wrapped up in politics, and I'm not allowed to talk politics at family gatherings.
Thanksgiving is one time a year, I can play pretty.😋
I agree. However the motivation, whatever. Being willfully ignorant isn't an excuse. Harm prevention is key.
@@pjpredhomme7699 also agree that everyone is not irredeemable. It's wishful thinking and not reality
Very interesting. Watching this during my severe insomnia over here in San Francisco. Maybe there is hope here.
Intractable insomnia makes LOT'S of us spend time online. We should start a club. I do suspect though, that isolation during covid, lot's of people losing their jobs or having them threatened during covid....and not being able to sleep....has led more than one of us down some weird rabbit hole we otherwise would never have considered.
You understand that looking at your device is counterproductive when troubled by insomnia.
Beth mentioned trying to get them interested in other things. How about amateur true crime investigating? Sounds like that would be right up their alley!
I tried that with my dad recently and it didn’t last long at all. There is a constant nagging in me to try, like he might come around, but we already have a bad relationship and after Roe, he reminded me he doesn’t see me as a full person. A wound he’s inflicted on me repeatedly in my life. It’s so hard.
I’m so sorry to hear what you’re going through. I’m estranged from my father. And honestly, for me, it’s better that way.
Really an outstanding show on this one. ...This is just about the best out there, and a nuanced explanation on some frameworks to address misinfo, disinfo, & conspiracy issues. Bravo! ...Now, have to follow Beth Goldberg and the Jigsaw team for sure.
This is fascinating. Does Beth have any videos of interviewing any of the folks Beth got through to them?
Okay. Google's parent company, Alphabet, owns UA-cam. Let's start a movement to get Beth GoldBerg appointed arbiter over UA-cam's algorithm. Imagine that!
For a person like me whose whole world view is based on logic and facts and struggles with emotions and social interactions on a daily basis, hearing that just giving people facts is a bad strategy to help them out of conspiracies is really tough because it means I won't ever be able to help at all - my brain cannot even comprehend functioning in any other way... 😔
I think facts will work with those who aren't too far down the rabbit hole? And teens who still see adults as reliable role models?
idk, this sounds pretty emotional to me and more like a challenge with shifting perspective. maybe just start with examining your own beliefs and biases. how do you know what you know? how do you judge facts? what's your process for evaluating a source? which perspectives get prioritized over others? a lot of the time, that's more emotional than we like to admit. many people who fall down these rabbit holes believe they're being logical, and they start with facts void of context (that's the "grain of truth" in every conspiracy). maybe think about a time you changed your mind about something that effected your day-to-day life. ime, people who believe their logical are actually much influenced by their feelings than people who know they're emotional. when we're unaware of our emotions and how our perspective might be different from others, we can't account for our biases and might not see the logical fallacies we're making
Think of it this way; these people have felt stupid their whole lives and suddenly feel like the smart ones. Throwing facts at them makes them feel stupid again. Rather than throw facts, ask questions. My favourite is “why”. The answer is often “communism” or “satanism”. Why would a country founded on capitalist principles want to turn communist? Why haven’t they already? If all of the world governments are in on it (people in every country believe the same conspiracies), then why haven’t they just ganged up and just done what they want? If governments are so good at turning people into sheep, why not just teach the people what they want to believe? Why all the cloak and dagger crap? It works in South Korea, Russia and China, why not everywhere else?
“How”: How do you get every government in the world to agree on these earth shattering, genocidal policies when they can’t even agree on climate change, trade deals or on daylight savings time? How do you get that many people all over the world to keep the same secret? We all know people are terrible at keeping secrets. Three people can keep a secret if two are dead, right?
“When”: When are all of these terrible things supposed to happen? Why is it taking so long? What is the point of waiting?
@@allyson87 When you make fact based decisions, it’s very easy to have your mind changed and utterly perplexing when someone ignores facts. I doubt emotion is playing as strong a role as you think.
@@therealjetlag lol, why do you believe people “make fact based decisions”? it can be comforting to think we’re logical beings, but that’s often not the case. when you present a bunch of facts that directly contradict strongly held beliefs, people tend to respond with counterpoints and convince themselves even more. this is why asking questions can be more effective…
to your other comment, your assessment of “these people” is more stereotype, biased oversimplification and over generalization, than facts and logic… kinda ironic, you’re telling me i’m wrong about people being influenced by emotions while both your comments demonstrate the exact phenomenon i was describing…
btw, i have a BSc psychology and MA in counseling and grew up around “these people”… i might know a little bit about what I’m talking about here
Really interesting Pod..thank to you Jon, and Beth...I subscribed for Jigsaw newsletter💚
Best solution for one's idiot uncle is buy them a fishing pole and tell them to get outside more.
And some beer 🍻
"You've reached the last page of the internet, now go outside and play"....
I loved this conversation. Thanks so much
Except they don't know anything about Q.
This was the most useful video that I have watched regarding politics in years! Definitely needs to be a required part of media literacy training!
BIG point that can help. If you’ve ever changed your mind about a conspiracy theory, especially if your new view aligns with the family member (but not essential), you can relate how and why you got sucked in and how you got out
Very good point.
I know from my own experience of “waking up” from cult indoctrination that there are usually several little things that you notice overtime that “don’t really make sense” though you can overlook them individually in the moment. Then, something happens that is a little more personal (maybe a significant life change, a betrayal, or, an injustice) and you start to remember all those little things that you were avoiding.
You might dwell on this for a while before you can’t resist looking for something to prove yourself wrong or, terrifyingly, prove your doubts to be right.
You might be justifiably afraid, because usually there are often serious consequences to admitting doubt in the beliefs of whatever high control group you are part of. You might be shunned and ostracized by your friends and family in the (usually insular) group. You may lose your job or home because of it.
Another thing you can try is, ask the conspiracy theorist what evidence they have to back up their claim. And then actually look at it with an open mind to see if maybe you're wrong to assume they're crazy. Though, of course, if they can produce nothing but insisting an insults, there ya go.
Thanks Jon and Beth! This was really informative and helpful.
I highly recommend watching Philosophy Tube’s video about Transhumanism and it’s connection to a lot of right wing conspiracies. She does a great job of breaking down how conspiracy theories are essentially people trying to express/justify and emotion or opinion with facts, and that’s why it’s so hard to break free or be convinced with logic. They’re clinging to something that makes them feel less anxious and afraid of the world.
Thanks. I will check ths out.
Just watched it - thanks! I'm a new subscriber!
What we are witnessing play out on the world stage is more than just a war between nationalism and globalism. It is more than just a war between the new scientific/military elite and the old financial elite. What we are really witnessing is a spiritual war.
On one side of this spiritual war is the cabal, a centralized ancient Babylonian Satanic Beast system of enslavement through debt, deceit, rape, torture, sacrifice, blackmail, and mind control.
On the other side is a decentralized Alliance of spiritually awakened individuals. There is no one central religious
"express/justify and emotion or opinion with facts"? But the subject of this video is conspiracy theories. In no way rooted in facts. I agree they are trying to express/justify how/why they feel the way they do, but none of the justification is fact based. If they were in any way concerned about facts, they wouldn't need to "break free" and their own "logic" would have already had them convinced
@@guacamolekid3899 Whoa! Seems like you are deep in the conspiratorial quagmire.
Excellent episode! Thank you so much for this!!!
Excellent show. Thank you.
But they know nothing about Q.
I like the comparison to addiction, especially for the "true believers." I have been working on my own recovery from the family denial of the disease of alcoholism for decades, and, because one's identity and loved ones are caught up in the system, it is a long, long process that is easy to slip back into since most of the "rescuing" behaviors are highly approved by society in general, since dealing with progressive addiction often requires actions that seem the opposite of compassion (e.g. don't bail the person out; don't keep them from losing their job, etc.) One can be loving without supporting someone in their own self-destructive behavior, though they may never actually change or appreciate you for doing it. It is VERY, VERY important for one's own sanity open-heartedness and self-care, however.
That was a fantastic post. Thanks.
This comes off as just excusing people for being willfully ignorant and hateful. These are adults, treating them like innocent kids is not going to help.
I am my brothers keeper, but I'm not his father.
There's only so much I can do within my own boundaries.
Agreed! So tell me, how does ignoring the evidence or not being willing to discuss issues and adjust your opinions based on actual proof help the situation? Even if you disagree with someone's opinion, you will still learn from the discussion.
The premise of this episode, and other efforts like getting people out of the neo-nazi/white-supremacist movements, WBC, etc, is what actual *has* worked. You can say there are better ways, but you'll have to go prove it works. The examples they are giving are from people who left those willfully ignorant and hateful places and the path they took. It's extremely relevant information. You can argue with a neo-nazi about facts all day long, but one approach that has been successful is to NOT talk about those issues and just treat them like people for a while. It's not as simple as that, but it's a core part of the process.
Beth talks sense when it comes to crazy conspiracies you have to gently wake them. Sometimes give them a little space. Try to shed some doubt. Try to get them off topic. It’s time consuming.
Asking questions and follow up questions and then allowing them space to think about the inconsistencies of their beliefs is a very good strategy
This is incredibly similar to what I was told when training to be a women's shelter volunteer: you never want to put the person into the position of defending their abuser. It is all validation, validation, validation. like "Wow, that sounds really scary." We would also do an intake interview to ask questions (I think there were 80 of them) along the lines of, "Have you ever had your partner stop you from going somewhere?" or "Has your partner ever stopped you from talking to people?" etc. So if we treat MAGA as we treat domestic abusers, we might have a chance of helping people get out of the cult.
Schoolhouse Rock for conspiracy savvy! Love your important work, Beth Goldberg & co
Great talk as always!
Thank You! I love how you approach conspiracy theorists with compassion and a genuine desire to understand. I've gotten to the point where I've kind of "written off" certain friends. You've convinced me to not give up on those relationships and to approach them very differently.
Excllent advice.
Great video!
Two things come to mind after listening to this.
1. It would be great to see a wiki oriented around misinformation codifying some of the concepts discussed here, as well as breaking out any methodologies.
2. I think convincing those who have fallen prey to conspiracy theories very much requires a long format discussion. And while I don’t know the best platform or methods to achieve that i wonder.. is there a world where a hive community is dedicated to make those slow conversions on the basis of a wiki outlining methods, and the gamification factor of a live collective?
A certain has been into conspiracy theories for many years. I stopped trying to reason with him. He actually tried to get me to believe Michelle Obama used to be a man named Michael That is on youtube. but, maybe, just maybe may try again. He used to not believe that Covid was real, & eventually did. It probably was 2 years later.....
Ms Goldberg is Amazing! Love her research.
There's some great teaching tools on the Jigsaw site - thanks! Is it possible to share links to the pre-bunking videos?
I would like that also!
It's fear of the unknown... The rush of having something you feel is secret... And that "secret knowledge" makes you feel special... Which makes you feel like you've regained some control... And then when you're "understanding" gets validated by these internet communities... the echo chamber of these feeling of shared secret understandings starts a self perpetuating feed back loop that reinforces the sense of community and solidarity... And it feeds on these feelings of community and Belonging... it's us versus them... they are the "other" and doubting, questioning, or challenging the groups think beings back the discomfort and feelings of self doubt... Because these communities make these beliefs and conspiracies part of the groups identify so its members see those beliefs are part of themselves and their identity... And anyone that pushes back isn't just questioning their beliefs, ideas or feelings... but they see and feel it as a direct attack on themselves... Who they are... and human beings have an unbelievable aversion to feeling uncomfortable... or feelings unsure... especially about themselves...
Great summary
It's not 'secret' any more if you learn the truth. None of these people have a stinkin' clue as to what Q is or isn't. What do you think that we think it is?
@@gogudelagaze1585 Maybe people are just too lazy to check anything out- like all of the people here making judgments about q who know absolutely nothing about it.
@@guacamolekid3899 I know enough about it to know it's bullshit. Therefore, I know enough about it to judge it.
@@randibgood You don't know s about it then.
This was so very interesting. All her research is so relevant and useful too.
A very interesting interview. This woman is so lucid in her explanations, knowledgeable and really helpful.
Thank you so much for this!
Great and important conversation. Pre bunking seems like a great approach. I think it’s important to acknowledge that some of these folks are drawn in by isolation and some sort of grievance, but I wonder about those who really have had no reason to feel aggrieved. One of my family members is one of those and it’s been so difficult to get him to see any other point of view outside of the right wing bubble.
The observation that increases in conspiratorial thinking correlate with significant Chronosystem events (a la Uri Bronfenbrenner) is very enlightening! We're eager to see the research that comes from studying this relationship as time goes on.
I see a lot of comments here and on my other socials that boil down to, "I don't think my loved one is reachable at this point." I admit I don't know if mine are, because anytime something comes up that triggers my outrage, I just shut down. I change the subject, make a joke, or ask if they've got anything to drink- whatever disrupts the flow, and then I usually make my excuses and dip as soon as I reasonably can. I don't feel like I have the strength to fight this fight. But maybe I'm just scared.
Anyway, please don't think anyone's not reachable. Everyone above ground is reachable, even if you are not the one who will reach them. Good luck. I'm rooting for us.
I think it’s more like “I don’t feel like I can reach them”
@@franjkav I definitely feel that
Take care of yourself first. That is NOT a personal failing; it's a skill taught at Al-Anon meetings and other care sites for survivors of addicts. Good luck to you too.
Wow, this was a really great topic and very thoughtful of how to “Uncle Out” Thank you!
I can't even talk to my Uncle John about accepting gays and lesbians. At Thanksgiving, he proclaimed, "I wouldn't want any queers teaching my kids in school." Then I reminded him he has NO children.
A great conversation. Hopefully, one that you, or someone you know, can benefit from.
This information actually gave me hope. Beth, you are AWESOME! THANK YOU
Beth has such a positive way to describe everything and such a compassionate attitude. She's not mocking anybody. Very cool.
Just... Fantastic listen.
the grandpa in the stock video of Thanksgiving dinner in the beginning looks like bargain bin Junior Soprano lmfao
One point I might add is that the folks who are believing these conspiracy theories are having their beliefs and suspicions stoked by their representatives in Congress, when actually their representatives should be educating and informing their constituents about the issues which are being tackled which affect said constituents, and that the problems they face on a myriad of levels are being looked at, and solultions are being worked out. Unfortunately those representatives are letting their constituents down bigly.
Totally going to watch these vids with my kiddo. Thank you for these tools. Psyched that I found them here. xoxox
Prebunking. About damn time. Now we just need to teach this to kids and adults.
I have found that the believers are very comfortable "debating" (fighting) with those of us who do not.
They get very wobbly when they are asked very simple questions, without anger or sarcasm, about their belief.
I think it's also more helpful to switch the conversation when they get stuck rather than trying to get them to admit they are wrong.
Hey guys, does anyone have some contact information for Beth Goldberg or her project with Jigsaw? I can only find her linked in and twitter handle and I'm not on either and cant seem to message without signing up. I wondered if there's an email address that's good for her or people she's working with? I grew up in a cult (Unification Church/Moonies) and this interview really struck a cord for me and hit most of the points I feel people really miss about what it's like for people to be in these organizations and what is actually effective to help them get out. Is there somewhere I can volunteer or help with anything? I'm not getting a lot come up when I google other than links to more of her videos (which is great but I'm hoping for an email address or contact form). Thanks
To engage with these QAnon people would require the person to have the 'patience of Job' - I have not been blessed with this kind of patience.
But you don't really know anything about it- do you?
@@guacamolekid3899 ???
@@patcomerford5596 I'm just saying that there's a LOT more to it than most people realize. The country is in the process of extricating ourselves from the corporation that has controlled us for over a hundred years. A large part of the Q plan (which is world-wide), is getting rid of US inc. I'm sure you realize that DC is not a state, it's a privately owned and run district- owned by the US inc. The IRS, The FED, and other main agencies are actually privately owned corporations under this 'umbrella' of companies, etc.
Right now we are in a situation where there are two competing 'shadow governments'. The military at the very top of the food chain takes an oath to defend the country to the CONSTITUTION- NOT to the president or congress. While the left were pre-occupied with impeaching Trump, Trump and his team were making some 'moves' of their own, which was to take certain 'chess pieces' quietly off the table, and carry out certain military operations, etc. There were several executive orders and key events that played out over this time.
The corporation, US inc. is owned by the Rothschilds and other rich bankers and royal families. The City of London and the Vatican are the other two legs of the stool- DC is military- London- banking and the Vatican- religious (which is not Christianity). Q said that 'gold would destroy the FED'- the FED is one of the main sources of funding for the 'cabal'- they can literally print money out of thin air and charge interest for it. Remember Trump's world tour in 2018? What countries loved him and gave him high honors? the BRICS countries- who have over 2.3 of the world's population and are going to the gold standard which WILL destroy the FED. What countries and entities hate Trump? The globalists- the same ones who are part of US inc., etc.
Our of everything - BRICS is one of the most compelling arguments for the reality of an overall strategy to defeat the globalists.
@@guacamolekid3899 Like I said I do not have the patience of Job. Sorry, I got as far "extricating ourselves" and stopped reading.
@@guacamolekid3899 As I honestly said, I do not have the patience with QAnon types and for that you say I am a "jerk". Again I stopped reading your comment at "jerk". It looks like I am not the only one who has not been blessed with patience. Since you have been disrespectful to me, it is a reason why I have no patience for people who behave in this manner. I will leave you with people who can also deal with your propensity for disrespect as you engage with them.
The most depressing thing about this discussion was that UA-cam forced Jigsaw to pay to show these videos on how to identify misinformation on UA-cam’s own platform.
Conspiracy-minded people are engaged users. Getting people out of conspiracies reduces engagement. It'd be like tobacco companies voluntarily providing health warnings.
@@AnexoRialto Good point.
Beth, is so much better than I am. Thank You
You guys really need to talk to the Q anonanonymous podcast about this stuff. They have been at the forefront of this issue for a long time now. I think you guys would have great chemistry and would make for a fantastic interview. I’d really like to see you do more episodes about the Q anon issue. It doesn’t get talked about in detail enough and kind of gets dismissed as “the crazies” but the number of q anon candidates is silently exploding. We need to break out the floodlights and make this a nation wide conversation.
The best way to deal with friends and family with opposing views, is to write down the two opposite views, Then agree to NOT DEBATE them. Next make a list of things that you each agree on related to the subject. Then agree to only discuss common ground and compromise. Whenever a subject drifts back to useless debate, start back at the first step
I really enjoyed that that was very good and insightful
Just in time for Thanksgiving!
He @PSA, can you link such videos you show in your comments?
As one who has researched this as a hobby over the last 50 years I think it is only general awareness of noticing crazy and not the internet that brought what was very widespread to the attention of those not caught up in it already. By having well maintained mailing lists anyone expressing any doubts would be dropped, so nobody but true believers got the most extreme and "inside" news and "information" so when total crazy was noticed on the internet it was already standard background for its believers.
One thing I learned is that the GOP really dislikes schools teaching critical thinking. Makes you wonder ...
Where can we access the 30 sec pre-emptive ads? When can we start disseminating them?
Fascinating discussion. Big institution are problematic too. Abigail on philosophy tube just did a good essay piece on this.
You also can't expect everyone to be hyper aware of governance and agency.
Also a lot of things like say making an emergency vaccine in 18 months are not possible without institutions of scale
This is a crazy knot
When you have a country full of people that believe there is a god and that the bible is a factual book, I find it surprising that people are surprised that people also have the ability to believe in Q
John. Mate. At about 8.30 you asked about "addiction". Answer spoke around "Community".
2 Points:
1. Imagine the massive psycological/emotional blast Inventors and Academic researchers get when they "find the real answer". That's going on here. These folks actually feel like they have found "the real answer...".
2. I have friends who are in the A.A. Community (maybe should include me) who simply cannot do without the "community". They are addicted again but this time to something wholesome, kind and positive.
Keep it up mate. Intelligent discussion always wins.
An interesting tie-in to a discussion on why some normal people tend to fascism - the effects of loss of identity from cultural and economic change, as with the rise of the internet and mass export of jobs, and the loss of community as people with different beliefs stop meeting socially and lose the sense of neighbourliness. Fear in time of uncertainty adds to the tendency to seek in-group reassurance, to a desire to blame something beyond your group for problems, and to a desire for a leader who will give hope. That discussion ended with the conclusion that the best long-term approach is to be active, welcoming, and kindly in your local physical community.
Stteet Epistemology (SE)
Peter Bogossian wrote THE book for it. (A Manual for Creating Atheists)
Anthony Magnabosco used to create the Street Epistemology platforms for UA-cam, Facebook and the rest of social media.
SE is a mixture of Motivational Interviewing, The Socratic Method, confidence scales, modeling doxastic open attitudes and creating a mechanism for self interrogation of strong world view beliefs
Great discussion. Part of "Persuading", (cousin term of selling without a profit motive) is finding common ground and agreement. Much of what we see when we (progressives and humans with a strong sense of empathy) see in our information bubbles is the temptation to belittle people who we have decided to put into the "no hope" group. VERY BAD. Empathy and compassion is required. Also, like they mentioned here, re-direct focus. Engage people in activities to draw their attention into in-person groups & clubs (detach them from on-line time / phone disconnect too). All of this needs to be done with genuine care and love for their well being. Once the cult member realizes that you REALLY DO CARE about them, only then will their Mind open a crack. Oh, yeah all this does not happen quickly.
Persuader must also establish in your own mind, the Cult /Qanon/ conspiracy, member MUST come to the conclusion of need for change ON THEIR OWN. Something is going to click which is derived from inside of them for change to begin to manifest. So, the persuader must agree that a seed is going to be planted then persuader is going to leave it there and go away. If the person doing the persuading has a plan to actively drive home a message, This is Key, the Conspiracy minded person is going to become more hard-headed and more entrenched then before you began. You personally will never reach them again.
I think before you can continue with your social media login account, whether it is facebook, twitter, instagram ect you have to complete a critical thinking course, like debunking before you gain access and you have to repeat the course once or twice a year to keep your access.