@@BrendonKing “In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501).
Seems like he believes the right gospel, this man doesn’t seem like a genuine LDS. Hopefully God will water the seeds that were planted and lead him out of the false LDS church by His spirit. Great dialogue as well, very respectful and kind
Thank you for sharing this Apologia church! May the LORD our God be glorified through this. I noticed the conversation gravitated around John 10:34... beloved, check out Micheal Heiser's "How Psalm 82 and John 10 Point to Jesus as the DESTROYER of Gods". I used to interpret the 'gods' in Psalm 82 as human judges - and I believed Jesus was clever to go 'gotcha' on a technicality within their Law from God, but a part of me felt it was like thos was dodging a bullet. See, Jesus was clearly claiming deity, and the pharisees knew this accusing Him of blasphemy; now my current understanding is Jesus was backing His claim completely, not dancing around it. If we grant the 'gods' are more than human beings (which the immediate and broader context alludes to, watch the video for proof), then Jesus is saying "I'm more than human". But He is also following with "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" - in a way, He is boldly saying to the pharisees "Blasphemy? I am more than human as the gods are in Psalm 82, but guess what... I'm also the head of that divine council - the Father is in me and I am in the Father. I am, and the nations mentioned on the council are mine to inherit". It was clear to the pharisees He claimed to be God (John 10:33), and it would be clearer to the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, muslims and other lost image bearers today if they understood the point Jesus was making to affirm His claim to deity here too. I see our designation of human judges to 'gods' as i see the word generation in the Olivet Discourse stretched out, it loses its divine firepower, and critics can then abuse the text to make Jesus a liar. I hope this look at Psalm 82 and the surrounding context will edify you as it has I. Psalm 2:8, Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. I'm glad I get to share the joy of Christ with you all, He is King! And Pastor Durbin is right, He didn't forget to ask the Father.
We will take a simple little verse and show you why it is not addressed to the natural man, Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Here is Luke 2:52 "And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." How does Jesus, who is God, grow if He is always the same? I would say that Hebrews 13:8 means that we can always trust Jesus. He will never fail us like mortal men. I do not believe that it means He remains in the same physical and mental state through all eternity. John 5:19-20 says, "19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed." God the Father taught Jesus and showed Him what He did. And he will show, or teach, Him more things in the future. The Bible teaches a God who progresses.
@@robertrussell7468 Yes, he grew in wisdom and stature throughout his childhood as FULLY man and FULLY God. It was the fully man part that grew and progressed, as God the SON. Do you have any Biblical evidence that God the FATHER grew and changed?
@@AndrielleHillis I am not sure what the difference is. I though Christians believed that Jesus is “of the same substance” as the Father. Aren’t they one? How can you separate them?
@@robertrussell7468 Christians believe that while Christ was on Earth, he was both fully God and fully man, so while the fully God part of Christ never changed, it was the fully man part that grew in stature and wisdom. The fully God part never changed. There was NEVER a time when God wasn't God.
Jesus did not take the statement “you are gods” in Psalm 82 and apply it to all humanity or to all believers. The use of gods in Psalm 82 was a metaphor. Jesus spoke of that metaphor to expose both the ignorance and inconsistency of His accusers.
The Orthodox church and the Catholic Church have firmly rebuked Mormon teaching. I am not Catholic or orthodox but I know for a fact they do not believe that you can become a God one day. What they say when they say that is we will be more like God and we will be joint heirs with him. Not that we will literally turn into a God. Please do not falsely represent them.
I said you are gods that Passage is a condemnation passage to the rulers of the day because they were meant to be Gods representatives here on earth. And Jesus quotes it saying that if God the Father called them gods (the unjust rulers) how much more will the son of God be called God who proceeds from the father !!
Sola Scriptura is a man made doctrine. We need prophets and apostles and divine revelation. Any study on the history of the origin of the bible squashes the fallacy of the man made doctrine on sola Scriptura. God chooses his ministers. We cannot go about creating seminaries and assuming titles of ourselves and expect God to recognize man made assumed authority. I'm so grateful that my mother, paternal grandmother, fourth great paternal grandfather, and many other relatives left protestantism to embrace the restored church of Jesus Christ and the restored truths and authority brought about by the ongoing restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
No such thing as the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Such thinking falls under blasphemy given that Jesus Christ established his Church on Cephas and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Matthew 16.
@@inhocsignovinces1081without the restoration there is no church of Christ. It ceased to exist after the apostles died as the authority was taken from the earth. No more revelation. No more guidance from God. We entered a period of apostasy. For the next 1700 years there was darkness as professed Christians sought after truth. In the first few hundred years AD there was disunity about doctrines and the Catholic church arose in Rome in latter half of 300 AD as instituted by Roman government. And it took another 1200 years for a protestant moment to be born after the Catholic church took scriptural writings of the New testament era and combined it with the Jewish scriptures to form a "bible". The Catholic church decided what they thought constituted scripture for the New testament. And then during the protestant movement man-made sola Scriptura was born. That concept did not come from God. It came from man. I respect the beliefs of all Christianity. My family came out of Catholicism and protestantism. And the Holy Spirit has made known to me the truthfulness of the ongoing restoration found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I invite you to come and see and experience for yourself the good news of the restoration.
A jew that died in the first century without hearing about Jesus is not saved? That's like getting an F on an exam without getting a chance to take it. That does not sound like a loving God. That sounds like a God that doesn't give a crap about us.
Deification of man is Biblical. The Bible says that we will be HEIRS, co-heirs with Christ who is God. It says that we will sit with God on his Throne and that we will be like Him. We will inherit all things. Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs-heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Revelation 3:21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne. 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. Galatians 4:7 Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child. And since you are his child, God has made you his heir. Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Sir , none of these scriptures you’re quoted deal with us having a deity or exaltation . You’re isolating those verses without taking into consideration the context. They have to do with our adoption , we we were once cut off but through faith in Jesus Christ we shall be like him; children of God.
@@godtalk9645 I guess it depends on what you think it means to be a co-heir with Jesus (who is God), to sit on God’s Throne and that when He appears we will be like Him (or like God).
@@robertrussell7468 you notice you’re reading into the text what’s not there . Again I ask sir you read the entire chapter of those scriptures you quoted . They aren’t not referencing exaltation or Christ deity. Yes Jesus is God but that’s not the context of those verses .
@@godtalk9645 I believe the context of these verses supports the Latter Day Saint view that God exalts man. If you read it different feel free to dispute each verse. When you are done I can give you another list of verses that teach the deification of man. It is a Biblical teaching. The early Church father’s also taught the deification of man. I encourage you to look it up. It is very interesting. It wasn’t until men started teaching the false gospel of the trinity and the creeds that this clear Biblical teaching was corrupted.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
God bless you both. Thank you for loving our Mormon neighbors. I’m praying for this man here.
Wow what a humble man. Praying he comes to a knowledge of the truth.
James Talmage (LDS apostle) himself took the position that the gods in Psalm 82 were earthly judges.
Do you have that citation anywhere by chance? I'd like to be able to refer to it in the future.
@@BrendonKing “In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title ‘gods.’ Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges ‘gods,’ and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds” (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501).
Excellent, brother.
I'm so glad you invited him to read John 8. I read it myself and was very blessed. Before Abraham was, "I am". That's so very powerful and telling.
Wonderful conversation, will be praying for Tyler ♡
Try squaring Isaiah 42:8 with what was said at 8:07
Seems like he believes the right gospel, this man doesn’t seem like a genuine LDS. Hopefully God will water the seeds that were planted and lead him out of the false LDS church by His spirit. Great dialogue as well, very respectful and kind
Thank you for sharing this Apologia church! May the LORD our God be glorified through this.
I noticed the conversation gravitated around John 10:34... beloved, check out Micheal Heiser's "How Psalm 82 and John 10 Point to Jesus as the DESTROYER of Gods". I used to interpret the 'gods' in Psalm 82 as human judges - and I believed Jesus was clever to go 'gotcha' on a technicality within their Law from God, but a part of me felt it was like thos was dodging a bullet.
See, Jesus was clearly claiming deity, and the pharisees knew this accusing Him of blasphemy; now my current understanding is Jesus was backing His claim completely, not dancing around it. If we grant the 'gods' are more than human beings (which the immediate and broader context alludes to, watch the video for proof), then Jesus is saying "I'm more than human". But He is also following with "the Father is in me and I am in the Father" - in a way, He is boldly saying to the pharisees "Blasphemy? I am more than human as the gods are in Psalm 82, but guess what... I'm also the head of that divine council - the Father is in me and I am in the Father. I am, and the nations mentioned on the council are mine to inherit".
It was clear to the pharisees He claimed to be God (John 10:33), and it would be clearer to the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, muslims and other lost image bearers today if they understood the point Jesus was making to affirm His claim to deity here too. I see our designation of human judges to 'gods' as i see the word generation in the Olivet Discourse stretched out, it loses its divine firepower, and critics can then abuse the text to make Jesus a liar.
I hope this look at Psalm 82 and the surrounding context will edify you as it has I.
Psalm 2:8, Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. I'm glad I get to share the joy of Christ with you all, He is King! And Pastor Durbin is right, He didn't forget to ask the Father.
Glory to God
We will take a simple little verse and show you why it is not addressed to the natural man, Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Hello brothers I love the work you’re doing as an ex-Mormon. But you need a new mic or something it’s hard to hear.
One part he got wrong was God sharing His glory. He explicitly says that He does not share His glory
1 John 3:1-3
If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, doesn't that negate the belief that he was once a man and progressed to godhood?
Yes, and nobody in Christianity thinks that.
Here is Luke 2:52 "And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man."
How does Jesus, who is God, grow if He is always the same? I would say that Hebrews 13:8 means that we can always trust Jesus. He will never fail us like mortal men. I do not believe that it means He remains in the same physical and mental state through all eternity.
John 5:19-20 says, "19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed."
God the Father taught Jesus and showed Him what He did. And he will show, or teach, Him more things in the future. The Bible teaches a God who progresses.
@@robertrussell7468 Yes, he grew in wisdom and stature throughout his childhood as FULLY man and FULLY God. It was the fully man part that grew and progressed, as God the SON. Do you have any Biblical evidence that God the FATHER grew and changed?
@@AndrielleHillis I am not sure what the difference is. I though Christians believed that Jesus is “of the same substance” as the Father. Aren’t they one? How can you separate them?
@@robertrussell7468 Christians believe that while Christ was on Earth, he was both fully God and fully man, so while the fully God part of Christ never changed, it was the fully man part that grew in stature and wisdom. The fully God part never changed. There was NEVER a time when God wasn't God.
Jesus did not take the statement “you are gods” in Psalm 82 and apply it to all humanity or to all believers. The use of gods in Psalm 82 was a metaphor. Jesus spoke of that metaphor to expose both the ignorance and inconsistency of His accusers.
Eternal being defeated is required you count sands when wind trys to help you Dust experts.
Orthodox and Catholics (i.e. all Christians prior to the protestant reformation) also believe in theosis - the process of becoming one with God.
The Orthodox church and the Catholic Church have firmly rebuked Mormon teaching.
I am not Catholic or orthodox but I know for a fact they do not believe that you can become a God one day.
What they say when they say that is we will be more like God and we will be joint heirs with him. Not that we will literally turn into a God.
Please do not falsely represent them.
I said you are gods that Passage is a condemnation passage to the rulers of the day because they were meant to be Gods representatives here on earth.
And Jesus quotes it saying that if God the Father called them gods (the unjust rulers) how much more will the son of God be called God who proceeds from the father !!
a christian hearing about mormon beliefs is what hearing about the trinity sounds like to a religious Jew
Sola Scriptura is a man made doctrine. We need prophets and apostles and divine revelation. Any study on the history of the origin of the bible squashes the fallacy of the man made doctrine on sola Scriptura. God chooses his ministers. We cannot go about creating seminaries and assuming titles of ourselves and expect God to recognize man made assumed authority. I'm so grateful that my mother, paternal grandmother, fourth great paternal grandfather, and many other relatives left protestantism to embrace the restored church of Jesus Christ and the restored truths and authority brought about by the ongoing restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The only thing that Joseph Smith restored was his libido
No such thing as the restored Church of Jesus Christ. Such thinking falls under blasphemy given that Jesus Christ established his Church on Cephas and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Matthew 16.
@@inhocsignovinces1081without the restoration there is no church of Christ. It ceased to exist after the apostles died as the authority was taken from the earth. No more revelation. No more guidance from God. We entered a period of apostasy. For the next 1700 years there was darkness as professed Christians sought after truth. In the first few hundred years AD there was disunity about doctrines and the Catholic church arose in Rome in latter half of 300 AD as instituted by Roman government. And it took another 1200 years for a protestant moment to be born after the Catholic church took scriptural writings of the New testament era and combined it with the Jewish scriptures to form a "bible". The Catholic church decided what they thought constituted scripture for the New testament. And then during the protestant movement man-made sola Scriptura was born. That concept did not come from God. It came from man. I respect the beliefs of all Christianity. My family came out of Catholicism and protestantism. And the Holy Spirit has made known to me the truthfulness of the ongoing restoration found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I invite you to come and see and experience for yourself the good news of the restoration.
A jew that died in the first century without hearing about Jesus is not saved? That's like getting an F on an exam without getting a chance to take it. That does not sound like a loving God. That sounds like a God that doesn't give a crap about us.
Deification of man is Biblical. The Bible says that we will be HEIRS, co-heirs with Christ who is God. It says that we will sit with God on his Throne and that we will be like Him. We will inherit all things.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs-heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Revelation 3:21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
Galatians 4:7 Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child. And since you are his child, God has made you his heir.
Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Sir , none of these scriptures you’re quoted deal with us having a deity or exaltation . You’re isolating those verses without taking into consideration the context. They have to do with our adoption , we we were once cut off but through faith in Jesus Christ we shall be like him; children of God.
@@godtalk9645 I guess it depends on what you think it means to be a co-heir with Jesus (who is God), to sit on God’s Throne and that when He appears we will be like Him (or like God).
@@robertrussell7468 you notice you’re reading into the text what’s not there . Again I ask sir you read the entire chapter of those scriptures you quoted . They aren’t not referencing exaltation or Christ deity. Yes Jesus is God but that’s not the context of those verses .
@@godtalk9645 I believe the context of these verses supports the Latter Day Saint view that God exalts man. If you read it different feel free to dispute each verse. When you are done I can give you another list of verses that teach the deification of man. It is a Biblical teaching.
The early Church father’s also taught the deification of man. I encourage you to look it up. It is very interesting. It wasn’t until men started teaching the false gospel of the trinity and the creeds that this clear Biblical teaching was corrupted.
@@robertrussell7468 please explain how the context of these verses support what you believe they are saying
Stop misquoting Isiah apologia. Your a false teacher of a false gospel. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
How is he misquoting Isaiah?
The Calvinist met his match. The LDS man was too sharp for the Calvinist.
"The LDS man was too sharp for the Calvinist."
Would you provide examples of this as to why you believe this?