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Talking the Sonic and Knuckles Comics with Ken Penders
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- Опубліковано 22 лют 2020
- #KenPenders #Archiecomics #SEGA
Behind the scenes of every favorite genre franchise, from Doctor Who to Star Wars, from Star Trek to Ghostbusters, there are and have always been a number of controversial figures. Behind the scenes of Sonic the Hedgehog, that controversial figure is Ken Penders.
Ken Penders significantly expanded the Sonic the mythos in the Archie Comics, where he served as the main writer for years. His run produced the most memorable and unexpected stories Sonic, and Knuckles for that matter, ever participated in. However, he is perhaps more famous for his part in a lawsuit with Archie comics, which would see him come out on top, and Archie comics losing the rights to more than 200 characrthers Penders created.
In this interview, we will leave no stone unturned and discuss the comics, the lawsuit, and the movies with Ken Penders.
Part 2: The Lawsuit
• Talking the Archie Com...
Part 3: The Movies
• Talking the Sonic movi...
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Hey remember when Charmy the Bee's friend overdosed on LSD and died? Good times.
Yes
Remember when Charmy the Bee saw all of his hive get killed and it mentally scarred him to the point where he perpetually has the mind of a 6 yr old?
Mature storytelling for sure. Ken didn't treat the fans like dumb kids, he knew we could handle dark subject material.
K X well it should been a PSA comic after all this came out when the dare program was in it death rose although at the time they didn’t know it was a total bust
@@maverickay5807 ""mature""
As much as I despise Ken Penders, I have to tip my hat to you guys, because you at least gave him a fair hearing; something I wouldn't do. This is what journalism should *always* be about.
Oh my god. You guys actually got Ken Penders on the show.
If you think about it. Anyone who wanted an unbiased representation would love to interview with them. Midnights edge has a pretty good reputation
A better question is why?
I wonder what the thought process was behind the creation of girl knuckles, gay knuckles, star trek knuckles, cat eyes knuckles and expanded lore of red sonic
Sonic Adventure had different Echidnas. But the NPCs walking around were all the same model.
@@zylowolf7919 Nameless background NPCs aren't really same as stuff Ken Penders was doing to Knuckles in comics.
When I was playing sonic as a kid i somehow didn't see him going to all these serious and outlandish places..
who was gay knukles? i know sue was girl knuckles but gay knuckles?
@@MackenziiRivers can't be the "Joeseph Joestar" Knuckles. Now that I recall, both that JoJo and Knuckles had multiple girlfriends. Haha!
"Sega was always looking for ways to be hip and cool and appeal to the teens"
Yeah, that's accurate, that's why they made the Shadow The Hedgehog game.
Its true
That was always their trademark. SEGA was always considered as a more edgy/adult oriented alternative to Nintendo. Even today, you can clearly see this dichotomy between both companies.
I sincerely can't imagine Nintendo producing something like Yakuza, Streets of Rage, Sakura Wars, The House of the Dead...
@@gonzalot.605 this is unrelated, but I love your Klonoa profile picture
@@gonzalot.605 I mean you say thay, but series like Fire Emblem do introduce some dark themes since its normally a series about waring factions, but to be fair Nintendo games like that are pretty rare.
Also sorry to reply to your old comnent.
This is a man who cheated a dead man, Ben Hurst, out of a REAL chance at a Sonic movie. Ben Hurst was a writer on the Saturday Morning series "Sonic The Hedgehog" on ABC that ran two seasons and is fondly remembered as one of the better Sonic cartoons. This man deserves the derision he gets from fans for a good reason....because of him, several characters that people loved were Thanos snapped away literially. If anything, I'm glad you gave the man a chance to speak but if anything, I cannot trust the words of a man who can't even release his "Lara Su Chronicles" on a specific deadline. He's been working on it for several years and there's no release in sight.
I agree. This is nothing but a cheap attempt for views, clicks and likes and as far as I'm concerned is as despicable as Dishonest trailers's take on Sonic.
@@Invidente7 Or Dishonest trailer's take on anything.
Also, Pender's art style is ugly.
@@zylowolf7919 After Spaz dropped as the Knuckles artist the quality went to shit.
@@bogger3k Yeah, I'll agree, we got the likes of Ron Lim on the book after awhile. He just couldn't draw anthros like the others(to Ken's credit, he brought a good artist on in the form of Dawn Best). Spaz was like the Tyson Hesse of today.
That Sonic Live! cover is a goddamn crime against humanity.
NotOrdinaryInGames it is a litteral war crime
The echidna man comes out of the shadows after all this time...
the echidna cave, stinky dirty cave
Ken "I made a comic about it so it's all mine" Penders is looking even worse than he was the last time his name was relevant.
Interesting to hear his take in a nonhostile platform, but there's just so much about his story that's hilarious if you've looked into it at all before.
Yeah, it's good to have a source like this. Unbiased, just letting the man talk and hang himself with his own tongue.
Both of these comments are so factually incorrect its left me laughing uncontrollably 😂😂😂
Keep typing and hanging yourself with your own tongues though while Ken Penders spits straight facts. The man's ambition for story telling is unmatched and this platform has now allowed him to educate uneducated children much like yourselves ;)
K X how are you sure if he is telling the truth ?
K X God I can feel your self righteousness through my screen
Nicolas Salazar he is a “penhead”
A person who defends ken penders
If I take one thing from this video it's that when doing business with big corporations, 'KEEP THE RECEIPTS....ALL OF THEM!'
Hold that thought for part 2;p
@@MidnightsEdge lol. I know it's not your catchphrase but I can definitely see how it's going to apply in this situation. Luckily I'm not a Sonic FamFan but he is part of my childhood, as there seems to be a lot of vitriol being spewed about this man in the comments. I can simply view this while sitting on the fence and how copyright can become so muddled.
Vaultboy101 well to be fair he betrayed the fan’s trust and did some morally questionable things like the holocaust poem,bigotry towards asexuals, quotating mein kampf in a children’s book, the Geoffry Saint John and sally acorn age controversy, the lawsuit is a major one and that time he stabbed Ben hurst in the back. So yeah they have A right to be angry at him
Kens son was the luckiest kid in the 90s
@Moogle Midgar What an uneducated comment, troll.
K X he would you know he is troll it is his question
@Moogle Midgar As Ken stated, his son got to check on early drafts of the comics and make suggestions.
That's how I know, you wanker.
@Moogle Midgar You sound like a boomer.
It's been a decade since this guy announced the Lara-Su Chronicles. He's still coming up with ideas and details for it. It's never coming out. That's the unfortunate thing coming here, Midnight Edge may not have a bias, but I do. Considering my impressions of Penders through my chats with him on twitter...
We'll get to the Lara-su Chronicles soon. This is just part ONE.
chris chan has done more lol
@@MidnightsEdge 2 years later
As much as I love his work for the comics. I'm incredibly upset that characters like Geoffrey St. John will never get the redemption arcs they deserve, as well as other character and story arcs that will never be completed. So many things were left unfinished.
IDW and SEGA are FREE to use Penders' creations. But with a price.
Tornado1994 that is until he kicks the bucket you bot
@@theshenpartei nahh they whotn be able to use it after he dies even. there's a copyright law where the dead person, unless given permission before death, still owns the characters like 50 years after their death... i forgot the details but we'd be waiting decades
AuraRavenWolfie well his family could sell it because there are some people out there who see his comic as a bad venture and declare it bad and just back out of it or his family could declare bankruptcy and start selling
Used to really like the Knuckles comic series, way more than Sonic when I was a kid.
I salute your pride and confidence to pursue both sides of a story such as this. Proper journalism is great to do. Great work/
Personally. The damage done by the lawsuit to a series I loved was extreme, and a few characters I cared about will never be seen again. For that I am sad, and why I do not like what Ken Penders did. So while I hate what happened, I doubt I hate the man personally. But I do hate him and his lawsuit.
I agree with this sentiment. Penders is a talented writer in his own write, but his utter obsession with a franchise he's had nothing to do with for years is just sad.
And when he tried to sue over the Dark Brotherhood game or whatever it was called. It was a bullshit lawsuit and he really should have fucked off.
@@bogger3k No he didn't. Ignorant kids like you should shut up and learn IP and Copyright law.
Tornado1994 you know nobody is going to listen to you with a tone like that and nobody understands that kind of law not even Chris Chan
@@Tornado1994 greetings but you should listen to the comment below you bye now.😁
As much as a lot of people like to joke on Penders, I can say with all honesty that the comic run in the 90s when they started to follow the tone of SatAM a lot more as a means to continue it, as well as the Knuckles spin-off comics, were my favorite in the line of Archie Sonic comics and they were handled with a lot of good talent along with Penders. Spaz, Manny, Butler and then others that came in later like Fry served as influence for me as a kid when it came to writing and art but I am not going to lie and say that later down the road things got....BAD.
Like REALLY BAD.
I want to say that around after the Sonic Adventure arc and when the Knuckles series was canceled did things start to get shitty. In fact, the Knuckles series ended on one of the dumbest stories (though there were some good elements such as the introduction of Hunter) which was Knuckles being confronted by a bully of his that, in hindsight, had all the right to be pissed off of him since his family members threw the guy off the island rather than letting Knuckles confront the issue or helping him become stronger form it. And then it turned into this story about the two being hunted by a Overlander (human) and it ends with the gorilla being killed trying to defend Knuckles against the dude and Knuckles going through what was the start of his Super Saiyan form and....YEAH, YOU GET THE POINT.
The Sonic comics from Archie peaked at their best in the mid-90s and early 2000s with some of the best stories and was a good example of Sonic characters handling a fun yet some what more darker tone in terms of how he was presented. If I could give a good comparison, the Archie comics, at their best, felt like how Nick's 2012 TMNT series handled the Turtles (or even the 2003 TMNT series) in that they knew they were marketing towards kids but didn't let that stop them from having moments where things got darker and a lot of risks where taken with the characters. When people do that, I give them a lot of respect which is why I can respect the Archie comics from that era and still hold them in high regards as just being plain ol' entertaining.
Granted, I think what made those work was part of Hurst having involvement as well and the help of MANY talented artists. You can see that after the sad passing of Hurst, things went downhill as Penders had a lot more freedom and as a result things went buckwild and it could be felt and seen in both the story and the art. Another issue that happened during this was that there appeared to be no leader in how the team treated themselves as well. As much as we can rag on Penders, need we mention Jon Gray who went full fantard while working in the comics all because he was a SonAmy fan and not a SonSally fan, a pairing that most of the Archie comic readers had supported since the start since many of the readers had come from the SatAM fandom where the comics would later pick up the pieces of to try to complete after the show's cancellation.
I can not stress this enough but when you are the leader of a team like this, you have to put down some ground rules and remind everyone to act maturly and not let personal spats based on FAN PAIRINGS get in the way of writing but that's exactly what happened which resulted in the fandom of the comic EXPLODING after Gray tried to split Sonic and Sally up after nearly 15 years of fans reading the series, not because it worked as a great story angle but because he PERSONALLY did not like Sally and wanted the things to 'be like the game'.
All in all, even with all the shit that happened in the long run of the comic's history, I can not say that everything that Kenders did was bad or stupid. There are a lot of stories that he worked on that I liked, a lot of the lore that I loved but near the end a lot of things happened that caused things to just crash and even after the reboot, it just wasn't the same and lost a lot of the lore that I actually did enjoy from the series. And the comics HAVING to match up with elements of the game hurt it as well. I love the Sonic series but not EVERYTHING about it and with the Archie stories, they took certain liberties that actually worked for a lot of characters, especially ones that were often ignored by SEGA up to that point.
Case in point; the Chaotix. SEGA would sit on the characters for almost 20 or so years after the release of Knuckles' Chaotix in '95 but the Archie comics made them central characters and companions of Knuckles which meant that they were also given better backstory and characterization that was lent from what little we know of them from the game (KC) but the Archie team at that time was able to make them work as a well grounded team for Knuckles much like Sonic had the Freedom Fighters groundside. When SEGA stepped in, they had to be more like the Sonic Heroes versions which at that time I did not like, especially Charmy. Mighty, my favorite Sonic character, was also absent from Sonic Heroes and would not be seen again until Sonic Mania+ YEARS later so there was nothing they had for him and after a bit, he was sort of pushed out. The Archie Sonic line has so much lore to it that when it was replaced with SEGA enforced 'rules' you started to realize how we took certain things for granted and how much flatter some of the characters wound up being if they had to adhere SO HARD to the SEGA rules at the time. Thankfully, the IDW run does allow for more room but it's just not as good as some of the best of Archie, especially with the shitton of characters we lost once that series was over.
Anyway, this is a text wall but I enjoyed watching this video and I was listen to it I actually went through my Sonic comic collection. I can't believe I have so many of these old things from the 90s but they're still fun reads today. And even with all the jokes that comes from it, I love being a Sonic and SEGA fan. There were a lot of good times and still are.
They did it before Sonic X and Sonic Heroes, and Sega of Japan had the nerve to not only say it wasn't cannon, but really had no story of their own to replace it. Same goes for the Amy vs Sally arguement.
Dude, thank you for making this comment. I was just about to say something similar when I saw your comment. I mean, I don't know if I could have said it better. I loved the deeper characters and all the lore. It was both fun and funny, but could be serious. I do think, like you, that they eventually had trouble staying on the rails, but even then there were some highlights (before the Archie series rebooted, they got me to really like Silver the Hedgehog, something I thought was impossible). And as others have said, there were some art issues in the Knuckles series where the Echidnas were... unsettlingly... human for a while.
But yeah. Great comment. Can't really agree much more.
@@AzureKnight2 I officially started collection the series thanks in part to the Knuckles line with my first issue being the arc where Knuckles and Athair lead the lost tribe back to their original home on Mobius. From there I started ordering all the back issues I could and subbing the monthly line. Going backwards and reading up to how all the stories came together was amazing since the original Sonic comics felt more akin to AoStH with SatAM characters in it but slowly evolved into the true continuation of SatAM over time and how they were able to tie the Sonic line in with Knuckles was great. It made the whole world feel connected as well as showing just how badly Eggman had damaged the planet and the other things that were going on in various spots. Plus so many artists I loved; Manny, Axer, Fry, Best?
I have LINE ART from one of the issues drawn by Dawn Best and it's one of my treasures.
I think in the end, I can admit and roast the hell out of the weird parts of the Archie comics all in good fun and I think that's because I found a lot of enjoyment out of the good times.
From what I understand Bollars was the one who wrote that infamous story, but he did not have Sally slap Sonic in his script. That was Jon Grey’s doing.
For more details go here.
m.ua-cam.com/video/Mh3Iw4sncvI/v-deo.html
@@zylowolf7919 It WASN'T cannon.
Ppl forget that the 90s comic industry was really shitty for the creators
Wow, you actually got Penders to show up, Big props to you, I might not like everything the man' s done, but I'd love to hear out his side of the story. Is there any way you could get Richard Elson or Nigel Kitching on the show ? They are the writers and artists behind the british sonic comic.
Byron Dunbar or mike Gallagher or Flynn
Was never fond of Bollers. His Anti-Amy nonsense, or Desperation to push his lame character nobody liked Mina Moongoose.
Tornado1994 but you worship ken
Byron Dunbar and he has a god or messianic complex
Nice! Literally just finished the Sonic / Birds of prey video, and then this one launched!
Penders: SEGA let me use Sonic, but the reality is, I let SEGA use Sonic.
CHRIS-CHAN vs. KEN PENDERS or SONICHU vs. LARA SU
Dawn of Fuckery
And SNYDER CUT coming soon ... MAYBE
really funny how Penders says they stole his copyright and his characters yet his story literally has fugly looking sonic art style echidnas that still have a similar story to knuckle's past... its literally just fanfiction at this point but 'nuu it is my original stuff' even though it isnt
Ken Penders' work is what you get when you set a fan-fic writer (with bad-to-mediocre drawing skills) loose on the comics. His presence in the Sonic world is not missed.
Agreed, so many stock produced oc-like characters that ruined the fanbase forever
he may be a respectable person irl but here I am just going to have to take my side.
Don't you dare put ken penders and fanfics on the same phrase because that's AN INSULT to fanfics.
Invidente7 Agreed there are better fanfics than his because his is trash
@@makutas-v261 Ian does the same thing but I don't see anyone complaining about it
@@newdawnhorizon9879 I am.
I don’t care for Ken Penders very much. I find him petty and a catalyst for what killed the Archie Sonic comics. Also, he ruined the design of Lara-Su.
He's the reason knuckles's ENTIRE family went into literal limbo
Nothing what he said here sounds like what you just described.
I think you should check your pre conceived notions toward this man, & what exactly you think you know, happened.
@@Invidente7 That's why I was on the edge of my seat at the beginning of the Sonic movie.
@Seth Hultkrantz why don't you fuck off
@@alexguskov25 Fuck off, Ken. You're ugly.
Never forget the Uk's Fleetway Sonic the Comic. That was my jam.
I still have a load of those in the attic.
I remember reading those comics a decade ago (late 2000s, or early 2010s). I heard good things about it, but I just couldn't get past how much of a *_asshole_* Sonic was. I knew even back then that he got better, but I just couldn't...
@@Wounded_Kitten But that is what made that version of Sonic cool and different from the US and Japanese. The English Sonic was like House from the TV series with the same name. You knew he was a hero, and he cares for his friends. But can't handle not being aloof. Anyway Fleetway gave us heros and bad guys not seen the other comics. My fav was SuperSonic that guy was Mr Hyde meets the Hulk.
Dude, I literally just started reading the fleetway comic a few weeks ago, and I have to say that I love Richard Elson's art and the more serious tone of Nigel Kitching's stories. The fact that they managed to use the Robotnik design from the "the adventures of sonic the hedgehog" cartoon and make it threatening and imposing blew my mind. I'm at issue 174, and the comic ends at 183, so i don't have much of it left to read, wich is a shame. But It's pretty enjoyable. I'll also give the archie comics a shot after I'm done with fleetway.
@@bog2132 You do know that the comic is still going on line. Fans and some of the old creators are working together to keep the universe going.
Penders should be the last person you bring to talk about Sonic.
I cannot in good faith look into this video knowing the man helped destroyed the Archie Sonic Series and even cheated a man out of an earlier Sonic film. His so-called Laura-Su thing feels more like in stalemate/limbo given that he doesn't truly own the Sega characters and can't use Knuckles clan in the way he originally wanted.
Does he deserve to say his side of the tale ??? Fine, but I cannot in good conscious look into this video knowing the damage this man has done to the Sonic Comic license due to his ego.
Another uneducated fan putting the blame on the wrong man. Ken fought for royalties, nothing more. It was Sega who decided to pull the plug on the comic and dip out, not Ken. Make sure you educate yourself before you follow the herd, you wouldn't want to be a sheep.
@@maverickay5807 so in the end it was sega's and Archie comics, fault for not wanting to pay, but yet again I'd understand why. Also Archie lost penders work for hire contract, the whole ordeal was a mess and wasn't handled properly
K X hey it is opinion and he has a right to say it you know and he doesn’t probably go bashing everyone else’s opinion and calling them “uneducated” or a “troll”
@@maverickay5807 Let me first say that I understand the whole deal with royalties and in this case THERE WERE NO WINNERS IN THE END. Ken Penders may have gotten his characters back, but the cost was too high and his ego and past actions didn't help either given he was the one who stopped the original Sonic movie from happen and before he got his chance to do it.
Sega and Archie aren't clean either given they didn't produced the work for hire contract that Penders original signed.
So Yeah I understand the situation, but Penders' ego and controlling ways is what lead to hsi downfall in the Sonic Fandom. You know the Dark Knight quote of living long enough to become the villain of the story well that's Ken Penders in a nutshell.
@@maverickay5807 Yeah I don't blame Penders, or any other writer trying to get royalties out of the situation and I don't blame Sega and Archie refusing to pay royalties. Comics don't exactly have high profit margins and with print in general in decline paying any sort of royalty seems absurd, especially for characters Sega doesn't even care about. While Ken Penders seems like a petty asshole, especially when he started criticizing future writers on a project he was no longer apart of, he was within his rights to do what he did in respect to the copyrights of characters and if it wasn't him it would have been some other writer. The real onus for the Archie Comics demise is on Archie for not securing the rights to the character by either losing, or never having the work for hire contracts and they didn't just lack a contract for Penders, but almost all the writers. Had Archie done it's due diligence in respect to legalese, or kept its paperwork in order the Archie Comics would never have been rebooted and kept going. Instead it turned into a legal nightmare for Archie and Sega that Sega just wanted to wash itself clean of the whole thing.
This is gonna be the most controversial video that I will see from my favorite channel.... Anyways, I'll watch it now.
You absolute mad lad you actually got a interview for this man and treated him fairly. I think a fan of the comics would have a hard time lol
I actually kinda liked his work, but the only peeve I have with was when he kept extending Knuckles family and made the echidnas to be some sort of super species where they were smarter than all the other species, it was just confusing like how can one society go from technologically evolved to tribal Indians to technologically evolved
That trope is VERY common in storytelling
@@maverickay5807 yh but the way it was handled it the comics just felt too much, like everything was reluctant on the echidnas, that's how I see it as
its a commons tory trope. think how most of hyrule were these technologically advance beings, able to create these super robots but then got whipped out due to a force. i'm on about Breath of the Wild btw
@@MackenziiRivers Technically the hedgehogs are the super species in the video games, because they get the most screen time, and the most defined super forms since they actually change not just pulsate.
Dear God ...... Guys just...why? Penders to sum it up....is why everything started to go bad for the Sonic comics in America. Sure when he started out, it seemed he was part of the golden touch for the series lasting beyond the original fifty issues, and even getting the green light for him to write a Knuckles ongoing series; but once you take a deeper look you'll see just how little what few credits he deserves warrant any true standing ovation.
Most of what he gave to the comics once you put it under a microscope is trash. Either stuff that was taken or borrowed from some other fiction with his own spin on it, and as many fans of the comics can tell you when you sum up his entire run it is a mess. He left awful plotholes and character hang-ups that took better writers to fix or better utilized the ideas he set forward.
Ken Penders is NOT, best of the Sonic comics; his accomplishments ultimately undo themselves when you look at the longevity of how they impacted the series. Add to the fact this man speaks one thing, and then acts in another way, a hypocrite and possibly a thief given some former fans claim he stole material for some of his stories.
Let's not forget this man torpedo's the attempts of one Ben Hurst to try and get an animated Sonic movie based on the comics or old TV show off the ground; and did so in a way that stabbed Hurst in the back. Nor should we forget how after Ben's death he's besmirched his name, telling HIS version of why the movie pitch never happened.
If you wanted a writer who actually did the comics a solid, then you should have brought on Ian Flynn and some of the other writers. Ken Penders is a controversial figure for a damn good reason. Not to mention his petty lawsuit cost us fans a comic we followed for 20+ years!!
Yes Archie Comics have blame too, as do Sega, but the comic probably wouldn't have began railroaded to cancellation without Ken's lawsuit. A lawsuit just so he can create a series that uses ripoffs from his work with the Sonic and Knuckles series. Just...go see for yourselves. I think for once you guys got a lemon of a series here....
A talentless hack that accidentally created something good, only to screw over an extremely loyal fan base with a copyright lawsuit? You should interview Victor Miller next!
The Creepy Night Shift Guy hey now. Maybe that is all true but that doesn’t mean that it can’t be insightful. I don’t care much for him but this interview has a right to exist.
@@eddster1987
No, it doesn't.
Did I say that this interview has no right to exist? Oh, wait I can just give it a quick glance over and... Nope, just called him a talentless hack that screwed over a loyal fan base; nothing about this interview not having the right to exist. I even suggested another talentless hack they could interview. Read the comment next time before react to it.
The Creepy Night Shift Guy yeesh. Tough room. I meant no hostility by that. I just meant that if they want to do an interview with him and he wants to take it, it’s justifiable. It’s likely they’ll do many interviews with subjects you may dislike, but something interesting may come of them.
I’m genuinely sorry if my point was unclear.
Blame the copyright laws, not the people that enforce them. Once you focus on the laws you can start to pressure for change
This was fascinating as I don't know the controversy. I use to work at some comic book stores during some of the Archie Comic run and I remember noting that it was surprising that it is still going and that it pretty much looked to be it's "own thing" since it had so many original characters. I just now did some quick research but I'll try to hold my final judgement with the complete interview. I must admit that I'm leaning toward a negative opinion so far...
Ken Penders is the Rian Johnson of Sonic the Hedgehog comics 🤣
Heh, Then I'd assume Ian Flynn is the JJ Abrams of similar things?
@@sulphurous2656
HEY! He has soldiered on, fixed all of ken penders's messes and created 2 awesome megaman/sonic crossovers. Don't you dare compare him to Jar Jar Abrahams.
@@Invidente7 Hmm. I just may be tempted to with the never ending roboti- I mean Plaga La Metallicum narrative arc that's been going on for what feels Ike ages. It's making people start to look on with suspicion this is a backdoor method of reintroducing the mess from Archie. Then there's the mandate debacle.
It seems as if someone's pushing down from above once more. Maybe we should turn that into a story. Could be at least something out of the ever changing SEGA's circus from the past ten years.
Plot Twist: Ian Flynn does not exist, his plays were masterminded in the early 2000s by Ken Penders, who used chaos control to summon play writing echidnas.
@@Invidente7 Ian Flynn is a scumbag, he's had much more influence on the comics that he admits, he's the one preventing the comic from introducing the freedom fighters because he dislikes them, and when questioned, he throws Sega under the bus, despite him being the only reason why Archie has so many mandates on what writers are allowed and not allowed to do with the stories and characters. He's obsessed with Amy and sonic being together, which is why he made sure to kill off sally from the Archie comics, and prevents anyone from introducing her in the Idw comics. He's the one who forced the comic to be more like the games, which no one wants, instead of telling it's own much more developed story. And on top of all that, he also seems more focused on pandering to the woke crowd by randomly turning characters bi and gay for no reason even when it contradicts how a character was previously characterised. Ian Flynn is worse than Penders, becasue at least penders was open about how much he wanted to change the comic to insert his weird fanfic OC characters. Hell, Ian Flynn is what would happen if Chris Chan wasn't autistic and actually became a real sonic comic book writer.
@@bog2132 so true
Penders had the most detailed stories and characters, but it didn't flow like a comic book. It was just information randomly shooting every which way. I had to read on wikipedia just to keep up. He had good ideas, but the comic itself needed structure. When he left he pretty much took it all with him after the comic relied on him for so long completely gutted the Archie Sonic universe, not to mention scared Sega from ever focusing on the Echidna tribe in Sonic media and games ever again. Sonic Brotherhood ring a bell? Penders was in the right when he took that with him, but....
He needed an editor...
There's a such a thing as too much world building, and it's name is Ken Penders.
Sadly, that is an unpopular opinion I share with you.
Too many blind Ian Flynn fans will defend that asshole that is basically the precursor to Ruin Nonsese style of mythos destruction.
I feel sick
Not a fan of Penders because of his Lawsuit, but I'm willing to hear his side of the story. Awesome that you got an interview from him.
I meet Ken penders at the last san Diego Comic con. Nice guy. Seemed glad anyone cared who he was.
Last time I met him at SDCC he got really upset that I just wanted a signature on my comic that I bought from him. He wanted to ruin the book by putting pointless sentence on the cover and I said no. He was not pleased lol
@@rubenlarajr7916 Sure sounds like him...
Everytime I see a pic of Ken Lenders my fight or flight activated
This was a VERY insightful interview. Glad that Endgame was mentioned here. I'll never forget that arc.
PS-I liked the Sonic Live! Special. Still have that one. XD
So you invited the destroyer of the Archie Sonic brand.
To be fair, it was also both Archie and SEGA's fault as well for not having proper legal papers.
@@blackg450 true.
@@rt6692 But the Lawsuit between him and Bioware was petty as shit. I mean come on, the game was released two years before his copyright protection has been completed. I guess that also tanked his reputation further.
If you asked me back around mid last year if I supported Ken Penders, I actually probably would've said yes. I used to view the guy as a victim of corporate greed, milked without being paid his cut. After all, it was because Archie and Sega weren't crediting him and paying him royalties that was the motivator behind him copyrighting his material. What began frustrating me is his attitude on Twitter, defending every writing decision he made, regardless of how universally panned it was, his willingness to license his characters to sketchy individuals, and the fact that he's basically the YandereDev of comics due to having barely anything to show of his new project even after many years. He's proven that while he can function as one cog in a bigger machine like at Archie (tons of people worked alongside him on the Archie Sonic comics, other writers like Karl Bollers and Michael Gallagher to name a couple, and the plethora of different artists) he cannot function as the whole machine. Hence why Lara-Su Chronicles, which is wholly his creation, has been in the works since at least 2011 (before the characters were even purged from the actual Sonic comics) and still doesn't have a single chapter out now. I feel he's being really overambitious with it too, focusing on getting it translated to every language under the sun including a fictional one he made up, BEFORE even having anything released in English, which is the language the majority of people who even know anything about him or his work speak. Translations are a good idea, but can wait for later. And then there's this "comic app" thing he's getting made (I guess somebody else is working on that)
He also promised a website for the comic years ago, in a forum post on his now dead forum from 2014. He's now talking about it again just recently on Twitter. He talks about getting a lot of things done but isn't. Oh, I guess he has some other shitty projects he's working on, like The Republic or The Lost Ones (The Lost Ones had an atrocious trailer with worse than Asylum CGI) Guy's really stretching himself thin. I suppose it's harder for him to get people to help him now because of his reputation for effectively killing the beloved Sonic comic series even though it wasn't necessarily entirely his fault, and actually it was the longest running licensed comic and longest running video game comic.
And now he's suing Paramount over the new movie just for giving Knuckles a dad.
@@ElvenRaptor Tbf, Penders lost his rights of those characters that he created, he doesn't have rights to sue anybody, and he pays royalties of SEGA of America, and Archie Comics because they own characters such as Lara-Su, Julie-Su, etc. Not to mention, he isn't going to sue, especially he doesn't have rights to sue after the debacle of his lawsuit that he lost.
Ken Pender's work on the Knuckles series was the highlight of the Sonic comics for me.
And the adaptation of 3 and Knuckles.
Where is the rest of the conversation? It never got to the interesting parts.
It did however basically confirm what I thought. Archie was greedy, didn't want to pay Ken Penders which started the lawsuiit that ended up killing the comic when Sega got involved.
Details aside, I think that pretty much sums it up. Everyone is at fault, and the fans lost out on it all.
The rest is coming.
And IDW plays the Sonic comics too slow, underdeveloped and safe these days.
SEGA never got involved. They stayed out of it.
Most of the infantile Comic Fanboys need to realize that ACP NEVER owned the Characters in the first place. Not even the Freedom Fighters. They had the license and it was rightfully pulled.
Tornado1994 shut up penhead
So the carcinogen killing Sonic weren't Sega itself and the fans but also the creators of spin-offs.
I don't know what it will be good for, but good to know.
Oh look. Ken the Greedy, Echidna-obsessed Comic Killer... even though it’s only partially his fault that the world got a reboot that nobody asked for, I haven’t forgiven him. No respect.
The fans own the means of a series, not polyester-clad chart fetishists.
Rest in peace band hurts we would have gotten the Sonic movie or satam season 3 if he were still around
Penders fucked Ben's attempt at making a satam season 3 when Ben brought Penders on board his team then Penders started talking to sega and what ever was said axed season 3, Penders even tried to pitch his sonic armageddon movie shortly after that and thankfully it wasn't picked up.
I only played the games, I never read the archie sonic comics, only saw a few episodes of the cartoons.
#ScrapTheLicenceFee #DefundTheBBC
The man who made 95% of Sonic lore? And in the process, made the equivalent of Rom, Space Knight for Archie comics?
No, the man who ruined 95% of Sonic lore by making people think the westernization was the actual canon when it was completely different and terrible.
The Great Lange you’re nuts western sonic made the franchise successful. SOA knew how to handle the IP better than Japan ever did.
@@mikeshaw7453 That has nothing to do with what I said. It doesn't matter how popular it was or how well Sega handled it. The westernization is not canon and it has confused a lot of people into thinking it is, replacing the intended, real canon of the series.
The Great Lange what canon existed when the comics launched other than fleet way cause the games didn’t have any lore that I’m aware of. And that’s Sega’s fault for not giving source material to the American team to work with. And who gets to say what’s canon anyway nothing in sonic is consistent anymore. Even Flynn says sonic doesn’t really have established canon. The IDW comics are going their own direction even now with IDW OC’s.
@@mikeshaw7453 The fact that you don't know the original and only know Archie shows my point.
Who gets to say? How about the original Sonic Team who conceived Sonic and its story? The fact that a bunch of random people made random versions of Sonic doesn't change what it really is.
Despite the whole penders thing. This also proves how careless sega of Japan was
Most Japanese companies back then rarely gave much thought about how their American subsidiaries were marketing their game as long as they were selling their products, which is why even the backstories they wrote for the Genesis Sonic games differ greatly between region. The Sonic cartoons and comics might had been what defined the franchise to most kids in the U.S. back in the 90's, but they might as well had been non-existent to Japanese kids from the same period (who got their own Sonic manga and anime instead).
Umm...No.
Tornado1994 you know you are penhead aka penders white knight
Is that a picture of Lara-Su behind Penders
The "Anti-Christ" of Sonic Comics as some put him...
I didn't even know they had sonic comics until now so um
GhostShock yeah it is weird
Maestro
Why was he called that or called a “Controversial” figure for that matter?
I don’t know 🤔 anything so can someone please explain?
@@utubeisCensorred that's a bummer, if you were inclined to read such a thing anyway. I remember them from magazine racks in the grocery store in California in the late 90s, first time I had ever seen Super Sonic was in a comic.
@@jr2904 I remember him but like all sonic media aside from a few games I just thought they were way too out there for me...
I liked sonic best when he was just a simple hedgehog that ran fast and liked chili dogs in other words i liked the jaleel white sonic
As someone who didn't follow the Archie line of comics too closely, or really at all to be well informed, can someone explain to me what the inclusion of the Echidna clan in the Sonic movie means for the future of other characters like them in the series (movies or otherwise?) Was it a huge legal issue to include them or can we expect to ever see any of the characters introduced during Ken Penders work to make a return in the games/movies/other media?
basically Penders only has ownership of the Archie version of the Knuckles Clan, as long as these ones are based off the games it should be fine. Sucks because the Archie version was much more fleshed out and if they end up using similar plot points then who knows what will happen, hopefully there's no issue. If the Sonic movie series does well enough maybe Paramount will just buy all of the rights off Penders, here's hoping. Would be cool to see Enerjak as a threat in a future movie.
@@MrAppleSalad got it, I had always wondered if the Echidna clan in the adventure games were meant to be the same as the one in the comics (or a different iteration) but that makes a lot more sense, thanks for clearing that up for me! Much appreciated.
@@thehombros9727 no problem!
I'm 30 minutes into this and I really don't know anymore than I knew before I started listening. I hope it gets interesting soon...
NOPE. This was pointless.
yeah, this isn't even an interview, it's a rant.
Holy crap! I grew up with this comic and it was my absolute favorite. I have ever single issue and was an active member of the comic's fandom. The fact that you got Penders in an interview makes me a subscriber for life. I might not have agreed with him often but I can't say he didn't shape my childhood.
Enchilada lore so deep
Seems that a large issue with his writing is not that he's necessarily a bad writer, it's that he had almost free reign over the comic, with nobody really challenging him or rejecting storylines. There are lots of examples of eccentric creatives doing quite well when they have editors keeping them in check, but do horribly when left to their own, unedited work. Happened with Samurai 8, by the author of Naruto. Much of the comic was fine, although over time it became increasingly mediocre. the worst I can say for most of it was Knuckles stories were drivelous and boring. The examples people make against Penders being the most obvious exceptions. His art may not be the best, but it also barely present, so it doesn't really matter that much. I will say Geoffrey was an atrocious character until Flynn got his hands on him. I have not read any of the knuckles comics though, but those got cancelled around vol. 20. I will say that after he quit the storylines and characters became much better in my opinion. Ian Flynn managed to make most of Pender's characters as compelling as any other.
I’m going into the video with my bias behind, just listening.
What you think now
?
crypto hi Any hate I had for Ken was for the end of Archie Sonic. Now it’s just indifference.
As bad as Penders is, he is still better than Chris-Chan.
Oh this guy is such a piece of work.
Lots of depth,can't wait for more. Good job guys
That Knuckles comic was getting good just as it got cancelled.
Can this. Guy. Finish a. Goddamn. Sentence!!
While I admire your willingness to hear anyone out Ken Penders is the cancer that killed Archie sonic with his ego and supporting this cretin in any way shape and form is a terrible idea.You shouldve just let him continue to fall into "original character-do not steal"fanfiction making obscurity
Holy cow I cannot believe this video exists, I Love Ken Pender's work on the original Archie Sonic comics so much! I've got nothing but respect for this man
Yeah I mean say what you want about his art but he had some great ideas and at least he gave us something different.
Valdet Paumi I enjoy his writing during his prime except for Sally and Geoffrey’s relationship, Sally’s death, and the holocaust. He’s not the best person though as he got into arguments with Ben Hurst and Archie on the Sonic Franchise that screwed us over and the fact that Ian Flynn republish it to make the comics to being the games in Archie to making a cardboard cutout advertisement in IDW doesn’t help. I’m happy that Paramount did it better when Sonic had a fresh take with a theatrical film and they listened to the fans to change Sonic’s design. I feel that Paramount came to clean up Ian Flynn and Pontac and Graff’s mess.
Mr. Tie-Rex and his morally questionable views he insulted asexuals and spouses anti asexual rants and his constant bitch saying “orange man bad” over and over again he has a right to say it but it gets tiring after while
Interesting! I love your interviews with creators, even when they create things that I don't know much about. Actually, those might be the most interesting interviews because it's like getting an insider's look at a totally different subculture.
For anyone into Sonic, and Sonic the Comic, I would 100000% recommend the Sonic the Comic podcast which is by Chris McFeely (of Transformers the Basics fame) and Dave Bulmer. I never even read it but loved all things Sega and just takes you back to the early 90s and the smell of youth. Check it out boomers!
Seth Hultkrantz 🤨
Seth Hultkrantz I have zero idea what you’re talking about or what your point is.
Back on subject - it’s an excellent podcast.
I'm here from Sonic Adventure Hell 2 group, it went Penders crazy recently and it was hilarious as much as it was interesting. I wanted to hear the other side though.
Don't get me wrong Ken Pender's puts a bit of a sour taste in my mouth but without him we wouldn't have all this Sonic the Hedgehog lore to pull from somebody was breaking contract and needed to be put in their place and it backfired on us the fans which isn't fair to us I will grant you that but when's the last time you played a Sonic the Hedgehog game because the lore in the Sonic games kind of sucks Sega can't keep it consistent or straight I will definitely give mr. Pender's an A for effort I mean come on every time there's a new game that came out he would have to work it in the comics while keeping the lore consistent I don't think that was easy and as someone who grew up with it Archie comics Sonic the Hedgehog will always be the definition of these characters
Holy fuckles let’s get knuckles.
Austin Trench unlike sonic he doesn’t chuckle
What a cool interview
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa Sally Acorn was supposed to have her own video game and we're all just brushing over that!?
Yes, it indeed was supposed to have Sally Acorn Spin-off game of Sonic.
I was really into the Archie Sonic comics from around the mid teen issues to whenever the comic started trying to come more in line with Sonic Adventure, I think it was around 75. That's pretty in line with Ken Penders' time as a major influence on the book, so it was great listening to this and hearing about what went on behind the scenes. I was surprised how many names I recognized, even though I was a kid when I was reading those issues. I considered myself a bit of a Penders fan, since if he hadn't the comic in the direction he did, I wouldn't have had that long run where it was one of my favorite titles. Anyway, thanks for this. Now I'm curious to check out that run on Conan.
Gee that Sonic Live comic was dumb, though. The editors ought to have stuck to their guns on that one.
He looks like H. R. Giger.
DocOck that is a huge disservice to hr giger
That thumbnail Sonic picture is terrifying
Like him or not, If Knuckles is in the Sequel, Penders should be the Main Writer.
Hes blacklisted, also we would get w boring as fuck film
no he fucking shouldn't. keep him as far away from the sonic brand as possible, with all the shit he's done he doesn't deserve it. he already killed one great movie, who's to say he won't do it again?
Hell fucking no. Ken wrote some good stuff, but echidnas corrupted him.
10:00 I'm going to get back to the video
Ok this is literally just Ken droning on like an old man. This interview needed to be moderated much more
9 months later I just found out about this interview, dam
Better late than never!
I think that Sega/Paramount need to tread carefully with a Sonic movie series because if so much lore was developed under Penders, there's likely to be a vocal section of the fanbase that might take issue with where the movies could go.
I think there will be a third movie introducing Knuckles but not wanting to rock the boat, the movie series could potentially end there.
If the movie follows the games story line, they wont have trouble.
@@mishaelcalhoun1165 Hopefully, the SJWs won't turn him gay. Yes, there has been some crazy talk amongst the weirdos.
Game's canon echidnas are much better than Ken's.
Watch at 1.5x speed to get the full monty in 2/3 the time
I’m very interested to see how he explains himself for Sonic Armageddon. A lot of people still blame him for Sonic The Hedgehog: The Animated Series(aka SatAm) not getting a revival season or a movie. According to the late Ben Hurst who was one of the writers on SatAm and Sonic Underground.Penders found out about his plans to pitch another season/movie to SEGA. He then went to SEGA and told them lies about what Ben Hurst was trying to do then tried to pitch Sonic Armageddon to them. That is the version of the story going around online.
Jordan Ferber I hope they ask him about that
I'm very interested to know why you believe such an ERRONEOUS Rumor like that. Satam is NOT owned by Archie and never was. They had ZERO say over any reboot idea.
I know that Archie doesn’t own SatAm. DHX Media owns Satam, Adventures and Undergound. Along with the entire DIC and Cinar back catalogue of shows and movies. There is an Satam fan site with an interview with Ben Hurst where he explains why Satam ended the way it did. The UA-camr Wolfie Reacts went through it in the video of him reacting to the Sonic Armageddon pitch video. I’m not one of the people who blames Penders for Satam not getting a movie or third season because the odds of that happening were so low in the first place.
@@Tornado1994 I'm very interested in why you had to comment anything if you disagreed with it now don't reply to me cause I'm gonna ignore it because I don't care.
@@soniceinstein7762 Satam was an IP of DiC Entertainment which became Cookie Jar in 2000s, DHX Media in the 2010s and is now Wildbrain as of 2019. NOT Archie.
I loved the 4 Genesis games 1, 2, 3 Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Archie comics and Sonic SatAM. Kinda fell off of the fandom for a decade or more so I never knew what happened. Very interested in this interview! Thanks!
You're welcome, think you will enjoy this!
Wow, fifty six minutes; you guys went deep.
Deeper than you think. This is part ONE.
@@MidnightsEdge
...
Why? 😞
@@Invidente7 This is LITERALLY the most attention ANYONE has given Penders and any blip on the radar could mean work for him so of course Penders's is going to take advantage...
@@enerstar
And that's no good 😞
they didn't go deep at all, they barely asked any questions. this is just Penders ranting at the camera for an hour.
@5:58 that doesn't sound very different from now.
Ha! I literally thought that right when I heard it!
I thought everyone hated Ken Penders for killing Archie Sonic comics?
Unfortunately it seems that we may have jumped the gun. The fandom really should've waited to listen to Ken's testimony on the matter, as from what I'm hearing it seems Archie and Sega may be the root of the controversy.
@@risso2309 ACP. Entirely Archie. SOLELY to blame.
Tornado1994 well there are a lot cons against ken like the mein kampf debacle and his revisionist aka atrocity denial with his holocaust story if you defend him your defending holocaust denial and anti Semitism
This ended abruptly. I actually have quite a few of those earlier comics.
To make up for it, part 2 will begin NEARLY as abruptly;p
Even if i was going to consider a storyline for a sonic franchise,i would have picked the stories made by Ken Penders.Hands down.
They are much more mature and downforced on story.
Its a shame i would have to stay with Sega instead.
I personaly would prefer something SA2-esque.
Awesome!
This guy started a catalyst shit storm that is still fucking with the franchise today. You can blame Sega mandates on this guy. And now Ian Flynn under Sega of Japan is the new gatekeeper of the comics and has made them more game centric and the games are trash.
Sega of America knew how Sonic should be presented And Sega of Japan have their heads up their ass.
Good interview very interesting. Looking forward to the other parts.
This video is nigh-unwatchable, with all the hesitation and umm-ing and ahh-ing. It might be best to take the knife to this version and re-release it as perhaps a 20 minute video.
Nah, wouldn't work that way. When folks sit down and talk, you're gonna get a lot of that filler. Comes sith the nature of this type of content.
@@maverickay5807 - You are correct, but I feel some serious trimming would have made the video more palatable. For me, anyway. I switched off after 10 minutes; I couldn't take it any more.
Its the Sonic Underground!
Sigh...Bob Harras...The Tom Rothman of the comic book industry...
You misspelled Dan DiDio
kory stephens 🤣
I was trying to remember why I stopped reading after not missing an issue in 1995 and 1996. Aside from growing up to the far more mature Star Trek novels which I read far too many of at age 11, I think Ken was right: I think the grocery stores I regularly purchased the comic from stopped carrying it on a regular basis, and living out in the country, I couldn't persuade my parents to make a special trip to the comic book store during our bimonthly trip into town. After missing several issues, I tried to jump back in with issue 42 in 97, but I didn't know what was going on anymore. I eventually read Endgame years later, but I've never advanced beyond that.
I quit Reading the Regular series in the summer of 1996. I stopped with the 48 Page Specials in 1999.
Tornado1994 ok boomer
The dark one himself he ruined Archie Sonic comics All because that Nintendo DS Sonic Chronicles the dark brotherhood RPG we lost nearly 20 years of world building & multiverses all because some a echidnas were too similar I still have my old Sonic comics including the entirety of Ken penders run I'll never forget he's basically the Sonic version of Ryan Johnson & JJ Abrams the original deconstructor of characters! 😠
I don't know or care about sonic much but that seems harsh.
I'd be happy if johnson's work was rendered non canon
@@Hates-handle I'm with you on Rian Johnson. Also not sure I can get behind the OP's comments. I loved Ken Penders's writing, and lore and character development. It's why I love Sonic as much as I do. But it doesn't mean I can't be sad how things ended up. My interest in the Archie comic dropped after his plots, lore, and characters were wiped out. I need to get around to reading the IDW comics, too.
Alex Klutzman you mean.
I do not give a rusty fuck about Sonic The Hedgehog. Seriously, make it stop.
I absolutely hated the American influence on Sonic.. too much attitude and characters didn’t fit the Sonic world and felt like the spin off “ Neutrinos “ from TMNT..
Curious if Penders had a Megadrive?
He was literally mean to have attitude from the start. It was design that way by Sega, DiC just put their own spin on it.
The comments section makes me glad that I'm not part of the Sonic fanbase. There's a reason why the Sonic fandom is considered one of the worst fandoms in existence.
Why? People liked these comics and they were robbed due to Pender's greed. It's not dissimilar to any other fanbase suffering from the same fate. Yeah I get that there's a plethora of odd people that like Sonic, but not everyone is like that, and I bet you would be upset if a story you followed was halted due to legal battles and destroyed because of said actions.
Tom doesn't know much about anything huh?