Thank GOD this isn’t another waste of time filler 12 minute video for the algorithm. Straight to the point . And more informative than anything else out there
Dude, you say more in four minutes than most of these guys can say in an hour. I really appreciate your attitude, your work ethic and your ability to explain things in an experienced way. It's obvious that you know your trade and you know how to explain it in a complete and concise way without going all the way back to Cain and Able in the Bible. Thank you for doing such a great job and doing such a great job on your videos.
Good video, i’m still not familiar with wet venting, but this one I got, and this would apply to horizontal assembly Do you have any videos of upper floors plumbing, with 4” stacks and two bathrooms back to back?? Thank you
He is in North Carolina and his pitch is not wrong. 3 in min 1/8 fall per foot. 2 in pipe or smaller 1/4 per foot. 4 in laterals you cal get away with 1/16 in per foot. Now that is said I still try to get the 1/4 per foot on all but the pitch’s I and he listed will pass code and inspection.
I can't thank you enough for putting these videos together. I'm building my own home and doing most of the work myself, including the plumbing, and the information you're sharing is priceless. Thank you!
Finally, I've been looking for this video for days, I had to watch half hour videos that in the end did not help me, thanks for sharing and for making it short but well explained and easy, bravo.
Here in California, the minimum vent size is 2” for a w/c. I would rough a 2”x2”x 1 1/2” Santee for the lav and go straight up 2” on the dry vent by code in Cali. Thanks for the video, just subbed.
@@playersdream592in the UPC code it says "a drain shall not be used as a vent". Im in Clark County NV and I've had my drawings approved showed wet venting but got my balls busted on my underground inspections with having a single wet vent for WC and shower. Out here im seeing either individual vents per fixture or combination double tys
@@coreyfranco7060 If you ever feel like pushing it with the inspector, horizontal wet vents for single bathroom groups are allowed by section 908.2 of the UPC (it's possible Clark co amended it if they use a local version).
Wow, one of the best "to-the-point" videos I've seen in a long time. Visually and verbally explained, short, and it references a practical application. My kudos!
Great info. You might want to mention that while the slope and trap arm length may be legal in NC, it does not comply with Uniform Plumbing Code. Many states use the UPC and most use the International Plumbing Code. Please check with the plumbing inspector (Authority Having Jurisdiction) or you may be having to tear out your plumbing to make it pass code. All in all though, Great Job!
Strongly agree with the comments below. By the way I almost never leave comments on videos. If youre a DIY'er save this video and watch it a few times. He tells you just about all the important things you need to know. I spent days researching what he tells you here and have about 25 videos saved in a plumbing playlist. Really good, concise explanation. You still want to do some additional research and I don't want to trivialize a job like this but it is really "do-able" with just a little common sense and research. Thanks for the video.
I agree you say more in 4 minutes than others say in an hour! I understand exactly what you mean! Your videos changed my life (good plumbing is life changing!), I've replaced iron with PVC on 2 of my sinks so far--thank you!
As a Retired contractor who has done a few bathrooms , I really enjoyed your work on showing stack outs and relative distances and pitch details . More than once I have had a client complain about the horrible smell in the baths I was remodeling. When I opened up the walls there was a stack but never went past the top plate
I stopped doing plumbing work in '86 . California. Watching your video surprised me with whats allowable now. Back then only vertical wet vent was allowable, and a WC needed a 2" vent. 2" trap length was 5' , 3" trap length was 6' . Horizontal vents from a wye branch needed to roll up above the center line of the drain too. Lol, my last code book I owned was the 1976 version.
Jeff, would love to see a video on how the DWV is tested / inspected. Understand the concept, but would love to see the process step by step. Thanks again for the great content!!
you're helping me understand plumbing logic and i thank you. i'm trying to figure out how it all works (to understand how my house's plumbing is put together), what's important, and your videos are very useful. : )
I was born in N.C in Salisbury and grew up in Albemarle. Now I live in Minnesota. I'm glad I found your channel. I'm currently trying to replace the drain in my basement along with the plumbing to the toilet,shower, and sink. I would also like to replace the upstairs plumbing down the road sometime. When I sell this house I want to get absolutely the top dollar for it so I can purchase a much bigger historical house and restore it.
I am about to DIY my mom's house's plumbing, given that we have more time than money and this was a great explanation. I will still check on the city's codes but it gives information on what to look for.
😢Thanks for telling where you are because codes are different in areas I in Memphis Tennessee I have been plumbing for 56 years so of these videos are done people who have never done any plumbing
Where live we use 4 inch riser for the toilet going to a 4×3 90 to the 3 inch. Comes in handy especially when doing slabs for obvious reasons. If you're drop is to much you vent directly off the drop
Everyone seems to forget that wet venting is an exception meaning it's allowed but not preferable. The vent in the video is a flat wet vent meaning the vent center line is at same elevation to the drain it's connected to if you're going to use a wet vent the invert of the vent should be above ithe center to the drain line it's connected to
I’m remodeling an old 30’s house and I’m in NC near Lexington, Ty for your help with these videos I’m trying to get my house up so we can live in it, been a rough year now I’m finally doing plumbing got my septic installed last month. 😎👍
Use the fall as precisely as possible, for example, 1/8" per foot for a 3" diameter pipe. If you pitch it too much, you can have all of the water run down the pipe and leave solids behind to harden into obstructions. The only exception is 45 degrees or more is treated as a vertical pipe.
Cool short video, i like seeing the difference in plumbing in other states in the U.S. im from Massachusetts and its very close to what you explained. Only difference is the 3X2 wye and 2" wye would need to be rolled up above the drain, which is almost impossible to fit most plumbing especially if the floor is only 2x8 joists .
In California there are some differences, 2" diameter minimum for a vent that serves a closet regardless of drain size. (That sanitary tee would have to be 2" all around) 6 ft. maximum to the vent after closet. 1/8th in./ft. grade is only allowed for 4" and bigger Awesome video, just wanted to point out some differences
Great video! Had a question about turns. For the sink you count the 90 as two turns but do the wyes coming off the 3" pipe and then the 2" wye count as two additional turns or no?
I have a question and maybe you could lay it out. We had a 5 foot roman tub, we had it removed and put in a large 3 head shower. We paid extra to have the concrete slab broken out and moved the drain the middle of the shower. We never had a drain issue with the bath tub, but when we put in the high dollar shower we have nothing but problems with drainage. Any ideas or suggestions, we simply do not use it anymore.
Great video. I know nothing about plumbing but attempting to DIY my moms tiny home. This is her exact bathroom set up. It’d be great to see how that ties in with the kitchen sink and dishwasher.
No horizontal 90's allowed in Ontario period. 1/4" drop on a 3" required instead of 1/8 and never use a 2" ptrap for a tub but always for a shower (not sure what you were roughing in for but likely a shower based on positioning). We also have to use schedule 40 pvc pipe or ABS here as that pvc isnt great with the cold. Stil a good and useful video conceptually despite the small differences! Wet venting what we call a "bathroom group" [s the cheapest and most efficient way to go where applicable.
It depends on pipe size and required pitch. A 2” pipe at quarter inch per foot would be 8’, because it takes a feet to put the pipe completely below the vent. 1 1/2 is 6 feet.
I learned more in 4 minutes than I thought was possible and I wish you hadn't stopped. The way you explain things makes it easy to understand and intensely interesting,. The only problem is that the video was too short. I know just enough now to get myself in trouble. You started to explain how to count the turns and just left me hanging. After a maximum of 4 horizontal turns then what???
Can you drill holes for 2" PVC through the 2x4" bottom plate of a load bearing (exterior) wall to get to the joist area below and then on to being drained out? In my case, this bottom plate situation is a sandwich of 1 2x4, then subfloor, then another 2x4 (top plate of wall below)... so it's stacked framing. Doing this is the only way to keep the plumbing in the wall for a washing machine drain, but I don't want to cut the bottom plate if I shouldn't. I can certainly strap the affected area it if that's needed.
Nice video , I have a question sir. I want to add a new bathroom to my house , is in my back room , the question is where can I tie in the poop line ? I can’t locate the main drain to tie in
That was so awesome. Right to the point. I have a question. Do you have any experience with saniflow toilets or shores? We have an unfinished basement with access to main drain in crawl space and trying to find best solution.
I have an unfinished attic that I’m finishing. Need to do a bathroom with toilet, shower, sink, and a bathtub. How do I tie-in to the downstairs plumbing to make it work? The down stairs is a slab foundation. Have 4”x6” studs. Two down stairs/ground floor bathrooms and 1 half bath. The upstairs bathroom would be in the middle of the house and the downstairs are on the opposite side outer walls of the house. Is there a email or website I can get direct advice? My floor trusses are 12” the only problem is my span is perpendicular to wear I think I must run the plumbing.
Jeff or any knowledgeable plumber, is it 15 inches on each side from the center of the toliet flange or once the toliet is installed there needs to be 15 inches on each side? Putting a tiny bathroom in a closet size space
Right off the 3” x 2” wye can you install a 2” wye to pick up the shower then off the backside of that 2” wye continue down for the sink? So basically have the wet vent behind the shower instead of in the front
Where I live, you can also come off of a 3x2 double wye with the trap coming off one side of the wye to serve a 1-1/2” trap and 2” wet vent serving the lav.
Make sure you follow your local codes guys because in most jurisdictions a wet vent is not allowed by the inspector. I know some county’s allow it but even then you really shouldn’t do it. Unless you absolutely have to. An example is maybe you need to stay shallow and don’t have the room to run individual vents. A rule of thumb is tell me guys to follow is every fixture should have its own vent.
Perfect, short, clear, 4 min, no fluff, doable. Subscribed, and thumbs-up. Thanks.
Thank you.
well
Thank GOD this isn’t another waste of time filler 12 minute video for the algorithm. Straight to the point . And more informative than anything else out there
Which god you using today?
good
Dude, you say more in four minutes than most of these guys can say in an hour. I really appreciate your attitude, your work ethic and your ability to explain things in an experienced way. It's obvious that you know your trade and you know how to explain it in a complete and concise way without going all the way back to Cain and Able in the Bible. Thank you for doing such a great job and doing such a great job on your videos.
Thank you
Great video! Please do a laundry room as i am trying to tie in a washing machine exhaust to an existing laundry tub
Good video, i’m still not familiar with wet venting, but this one I got, and this would apply to horizontal assembly
Do you have any videos of upper floors plumbing, with 4” stacks and two bathrooms back to back??
Thank you
I knew from the thumbnail this was going to be the guy
behave
4 minutes and 20 seconds. Most efficient and informative video on the subject I've ever seen. Thank you.
IDK WHAT STATE YOU ARE IN BUT YOUR PITCH IS WRONG. PLUS YOUR 3 BY R Y IS NOT ROLLED ABOVE THE CENTER LINE
He is in North Carolina and his pitch is not wrong. 3 in min 1/8 fall per foot. 2 in pipe or smaller 1/4 per foot. 4 in laterals you cal get away with 1/16 in per foot. Now that is said I still try to get the 1/4 per foot on all but the pitch’s I and he listed will pass code and inspection.
I just subscribed because of your no time wasting B.S. and straight to the point explanation. Thank you
short and to the point...this great makes a great teacher.
Great video. Quick and to the point! All the information I needed in 4 minutes. Nicely done!
Excellent video. Quick and to the point. Thanks.
As others have mentioned an extremely efficient video. Cannot thank you enough.
Straight to the point, easy to follow, valuable information 👍 Thanks
WOAHHH !!! You got a comment from THEEE bathroomRemodelingTeacher himself 😱👏🏼👏🏼
Wife
4 mins?! Straight to the point. Love it! Thank you!!!!!
I can't thank you enough for putting these videos together. I'm building my own home and doing most of the work myself, including the plumbing, and the information you're sharing is priceless. Thank you!
probably the best explanation of plumbing/ code I have seen on youtube. Everything all in one place! Really Good! Thanks!
Thanks so much.
Wide
Finally, I've been looking for this video for days, I had to watch half hour videos that in the end did not help me, thanks for sharing and for making it short but well explained and easy, bravo.
Looks like you and I will be plumbing my house together. 4min at a time, PERFECT!!!!!!!!
Here in California, the minimum vent size is 2” for a w/c. I would rough a 2”x2”x 1 1/2” Santee for the lav and go straight up 2” on the dry vent by code in Cali. Thanks for the video, just subbed.
CA is UPC so a drain cant act as a vent. This installation would not be legal there right?
@coreyfranco7060 the UPC does allow for the horizontal wet vent system depicted in the video.
@@playersdream592in the UPC code it says "a drain shall not be used as a vent". Im in Clark County NV and I've had my drawings approved showed wet venting but got my balls busted on my underground inspections with having a single wet vent for WC and shower. Out here im seeing either individual vents per fixture or combination double tys
And the WC must be downstream of the other fixtures for a horizontal wet vent, so the system in this video would need to be rearranged a bit for us.
@@coreyfranco7060 If you ever feel like pushing it with the inspector, horizontal wet vents for single bathroom groups are allowed by section 908.2 of the UPC (it's possible Clark co amended it if they use a local version).
That was great. A lot of information in a short time and very straightforward.
Thanks.
Wow, one of the best "to-the-point" videos I've seen in a long time. Visually and verbally explained, short, and it references a practical application. My kudos!
Great info. You might want to mention that while the slope and trap arm length may be legal in NC, it does not comply with Uniform Plumbing Code. Many states use the UPC and most use the International Plumbing Code. Please check with the plumbing inspector (Authority Having Jurisdiction) or you may be having to tear out your plumbing to make it pass code.
All in all though, Great Job!
Thank you, hard to find anyone on UA-cam who actually gets right to the point. Great information and directly to the point!
Strongly agree with the comments below. By the way I almost never leave comments on videos. If youre a DIY'er save this video and watch it a few times. He tells you just about all the important things you need to know. I spent days researching what he tells you here and have about 25 videos saved in a plumbing playlist. Really good, concise explanation. You still want to do some additional research and I don't want to trivialize a job like this but it is really "do-able" with just a little common sense and research. Thanks for the video.
I agree you say more in 4 minutes than others say in an hour! I understand exactly what you mean! Your videos changed my life (good plumbing is life changing!), I've replaced iron with PVC on 2 of my sinks so far--thank you!
As a Retired contractor who has done a few bathrooms , I really enjoyed your work on showing stack outs and relative distances and pitch details . More than once I have had a client complain about the horrible smell in the baths I was remodeling. When I opened up the walls there was a stack but never went past the top plate
Best, concise thing I've seen in awhile.... Carpenter here, appreciate this vid on my not-so-area of expertise.
A plumber can be a framing carpenters worst nightmare when he hacks floor joists and wall studs.
I stopped doing plumbing work in '86 . California. Watching your video surprised me with whats allowable now. Back then only vertical wet vent was allowable, and a WC needed a 2" vent.
2" trap length was 5' , 3" trap length was 6' . Horizontal vents from a wye branch needed to roll up above the center line of the drain too. Lol, my last code book I owned was the 1976 version.
Code hasn’t changed that much, we still plumb that way here in northern california
What you saw was redoing a hack job, highly unprofessional by the installer when the room or house was built.
@tonymanero5544 definitely not UPC. It's atrocious.
Good video, i like the way you visually and verbally explain things. Good video for a refresher
Jeff, would love to see a video on how the DWV is tested / inspected. Understand the concept, but would love to see the process step by step. Thanks again for the great content!!
you're helping me understand plumbing logic and i thank you.
i'm trying to figure out how it all works (to understand how my house's plumbing is put together), what's important, and your videos are very useful.
: )
Thank you brother. I'm going to plumb a bathroom in my garage, and I at least have a starting point. Much appreciated. Clear and concise.
Love it. Right to the point, no tales or life stories. Great informative content.
Great video, especially regarding the cleanout requirements. After reading the NC code I was a bit confused, but now I'm good to go, thanks!
You bet.
I was born in N.C in Salisbury and grew up in Albemarle. Now I live in Minnesota. I'm glad I found your channel. I'm currently trying to replace the drain in my basement along with the plumbing to the toilet,shower, and sink. I would also like to replace the upstairs plumbing down the road sometime. When I sell this house I want to get absolutely the top dollar for it so I can purchase a much bigger historical house and restore it.
Thank you so much. Amazing explanation with ZERO wasted time.
The greatest plumbing video out there
I am about to DIY my mom's house's plumbing, given that we have more time than money and this was a great explanation. I will still check on the city's codes but it gives information on what to look for.
That explanation is about as good as it gets. Thanks
No plumber but remember the toilet as 1,2,3. 1 toilet 2in vent 3in drain. Also same answer for water head. 1 psi = 2.3 feet of head. Good video.
😢Thanks for telling where you are because codes are different in areas I in Memphis Tennessee I have been plumbing for 56 years so of these videos are done people who have never done any plumbing
Wow, that’s the best. Four minutes. I’ve ever spent learning something new. Really appreciate it already liked and subscribed.👍
Where live we use 4 inch riser for the toilet going to a 4×3 90 to the 3 inch. Comes in handy especially when doing slabs for obvious reasons. If you're drop is to much you vent directly off the drop
Please do a vid on drainage and supply for multiple Kitchen and bathroom residential installation.
Everyone seems to forget that wet venting is an exception meaning it's allowed but not preferable. The vent in the video is a flat wet vent meaning the vent center line is at same elevation to the drain it's connected to if you're going to use a wet vent the invert of the vent should be above ithe center to the drain line it's connected to
Dry vent isn’t preferred anymore, if there’s a clog it won’t have water going through it to flush any solid out
@@darkma1ice A clog in your vent?
That was awesome! I'm subscribed and looking forward to more.
I don't really know anything about plumbing, but I'll be coming back to this a few times and looking for others. Thanks!
I’m building a house and needed this video really bad and haven’t been able to find it. I’m subbed now! Great video!
Great video. Concise and to the point… just like I need the information.
I really appreciate your videos you prevented me from making a lot of mistakes
Thanks for a great video. Are you planning to do a video on how to size water lines for fixtures in a house?
This is t he most efficient bathroom drainage system I've ever seen.....excellent!
Thanks so much.
Thanks so much!
Awesome, awesome video. Detailed explanation of Plumber knowledge. The DIYers thank you ❤
You broke this down really well. I don’t have much experience in roughins here in TX
Great insight.
I’m remodeling an old 30’s house and I’m in NC near Lexington, Ty for your help with these videos I’m trying to get my house up so we can live in it, been a rough year now I’m finally doing plumbing got my septic installed last month. 😎👍
Thanks!
Great video. To the point & informative.
Use the fall as precisely as possible, for example, 1/8" per foot for a 3" diameter pipe. If you pitch it too much, you can have all of the water run down the pipe and leave solids behind to harden into obstructions. The only exception is 45 degrees or more is treated as a vertical pipe.
My old memory was that only until 4" were you allowed to run 1/8 per ft. Slope.
Cool short video, i like seeing the difference in plumbing in other states in the U.S. im from Massachusetts and its very close to what you explained. Only difference is the 3X2 wye and 2" wye would need to be rolled up above the drain, which is almost impossible to fit most plumbing especially if the floor is only 2x8 joists .
Awesome video and clear information!
Awesome mate
Simple easy to understand
Yes different in oz but same rule of thumb applies
Cheers from down under
Thank you for this informative video. Really helpful and educational. More please 🙏
In California there are some differences,
2" diameter minimum for a vent that serves a closet regardless of drain size. (That sanitary tee would have to be 2" all around)
6 ft. maximum to the vent after closet.
1/8th in./ft. grade is only allowed for 4" and bigger
Awesome video, just wanted to point out some differences
Like everything else in California, their vent requirements are as expensive as they are inefficient.
Finally someone who doesn’t ramble nonsense for the first 3 minutes.
More guys like this, a life would be easier, Thanks a lot
Great video! Had a question about turns. For the sink you count the 90 as two turns but do the wyes coming off the 3" pipe and then the 2" wye count as two additional turns or no?
This was beauty man. I appreciate how clean and condensed you video was.
Thanks for the video ..
I have a question and maybe you could lay it out. We had a 5 foot roman tub, we had it removed and put in a large 3 head shower. We paid extra to have the concrete slab broken out and moved the drain the middle of the shower. We never had a drain issue with the bath tub, but when we put in the high dollar shower we have nothing but problems with drainage. Any ideas or suggestions, we simply do not use it anymore.
What are the problems you've experienced, and how long did it take them to occur?
Nice job and easy to follow.
awesome I'm building a home in NC. So I can have a tub, toilet and sink all vented by a single 2" PVC vent line?
paint vent different color from white (drain). Thanks. Excellent.
Great video. I know nothing about plumbing but attempting to DIY my moms tiny home. This is her exact bathroom set up. It’d be great to see how that ties in with the kitchen sink and dishwasher.
I'll keep that in mind for the next video. Thanks
@@risingtideplumbing How much would you charge to provide a plumbing diagram with parts and pieces if I provided a floor plan?
Great job, really appreciate how you explain it. In such a short period of time
Great video.
No horizontal 90's allowed in Ontario period. 1/4" drop on a 3" required instead of 1/8 and never use a 2" ptrap for a tub but always for a shower (not sure what you were roughing in for but likely a shower based on positioning). We also have to use schedule 40 pvc pipe or ABS here as that pvc isnt great with the cold. Stil a good and useful video conceptually despite the small differences! Wet venting what we call a "bathroom group" [s the cheapest and most efficient way to go where applicable.
2:46 from ontario, just checked, it says max 6ft. either toilet or shower flange.
It depends on pipe size and required pitch. A 2” pipe at quarter inch per foot would be 8’, because it takes a feet to put the pipe completely below the vent. 1 1/2 is 6 feet.
Great video Jeff!!
Thanks!
I do so much non code winging it so it's nice to see the correct way.
Great video, very informative for us DIYers.
Nice video. Covered a lot in a short amount of time.
Wow , so informative, thank you for generously sharing
I learned more in 4 minutes than I thought was possible and I wish you hadn't stopped. The way you explain things makes it easy to understand and intensely interesting,. The only problem is that the video was too short. I know just enough now to get myself in trouble. You started to explain how to count the turns and just left me hanging. After a maximum of 4 horizontal turns then what???
Quick, short and informative. Thank you.
Good stuff. Thank you for the education. From a General Contractor.
Can you drill holes for 2" PVC through the 2x4" bottom plate of a load bearing (exterior) wall to get to the joist area below and then on to being drained out? In my case, this bottom plate situation is a sandwich of 1 2x4, then subfloor, then another 2x4 (top plate of wall below)... so it's stacked framing. Doing this is the only way to keep the plumbing in the wall for a washing machine drain, but I don't want to cut the bottom plate if I shouldn't. I can certainly strap the affected area it if that's needed.
Nice video , I have a question sir. I want to add a new bathroom to my house , is in my back room , the question is where can I tie in the poop line ? I can’t locate the main drain to tie in
That was so awesome. Right to the point. I have a question. Do you have any experience with saniflow toilets or shores? We have an unfinished basement with access to main drain in crawl space and trying to find best solution.
I have an unfinished attic that I’m finishing. Need to do a bathroom with toilet, shower, sink, and a bathtub. How do I tie-in to the downstairs plumbing to make it work? The down stairs is a slab foundation. Have 4”x6” studs. Two down stairs/ground floor bathrooms and 1 half bath. The upstairs bathroom would be in the middle of the house and the downstairs are on the opposite side outer walls of the house. Is there a email or website I can get direct advice? My floor trusses are 12” the only problem is my span is perpendicular to wear I think I must run the plumbing.
Jeff or any knowledgeable plumber, is it 15 inches on each side from the center of the toliet flange or once the toliet is installed there needs to be 15 inches on each side?
Putting a tiny bathroom in a closet size space
thank you. I like the blooper and the kid laughing at the end. nice touch. subscribed.
very concise
Amazing and quick information
One of the best videos i've seen. This guy knows code.
Ipc.maybe
You can also use a 4x3 closet bend come up with a 4" riser.
Right off the 3” x 2” wye can you install a 2” wye to pick up the shower then off the backside of that 2” wye continue down for the sink? So basically have the wet vent behind the shower instead of in the front
Where I live, you can also come off of a 3x2 double wye with the trap coming off one side of the wye to serve a 1-1/2” trap and 2” wet vent serving the lav.
What about ventilation for the toilet and sink and tub drain
Great video, straight to the point. Thank you!
Straight to the point.
Make sure you follow your local codes guys because in most jurisdictions a wet vent is not allowed by the inspector. I know some county’s allow it but even then you really shouldn’t do it. Unless you absolutely have to. An example is maybe you need to stay shallow and don’t have the room to run individual vents. A rule of thumb is tell me guys to follow is every fixture should have its own vent.
That's absurd. Wet venting is definitely allowed
Most jurisdictions use the UPC code and horizontal wet venting is absolutely allowed and we plumb countless apartments using it with zero issues.
Tell me you’re not a plumber without telling me you’re not a plumber
Nice channel. Quick question, what is the best material to use when RE plumbing the bathroom drains. Cast iron, PVC, or ABS?