Thank you for all your insights. Very helpful. I want to suggest something, too. As gay men, we aren't born into our community. Racial and religious minority members (at least the majority of the latter) are born into their communities. And their community is their parents, siblings, extended family, and often friends and neighbors. And they observe/learn a lot about trust in their formative years through all those connections. We don't get to have that. And often, the first relationship when we do connect with our communities is transactional: You want my body, I want yours. I'm not putting down the sexual aspects of gay culture. I celebrate them--from romantic relationships to FWB to hookups to anonymous encounters, we are more open and direct and honest about satisfying our sexual wants, and I think that's a good thing. But there are bad sides to even many good things. And when your first experience is "This person wanted me until they had me, or wanted me until they didn't. Now I'm nothing to them, worthless. And that's ALL the experience I've had in relation to this community," it creates a psychic wound. I'd list all the great things you guys said that really resonated with me, but I know I go on way to long to begin with. :) I found so much rich discourse here.
I think the most important thing here is our attitude. We all know there are lots of good people out there, so if we have been disappointed or deceived, we have to keep in mind that not everyone is like that and keep giving other people the chance to be part of our lives. If they keep damaging our trust, that’s on them. Good people will arrive eventually. Thanks for this guys, beautiful as always, tight hugs.
In all my relationships...I have one rule, I trust the other person will talk to me if there is a problem that affects both of us and I will do the same. I have had 3 long wonderful relationships spanning from 2005 to 2022. My partners and I had many talks and solved many problems....and the rule to this day has never been broken. No one wants their own trust broken, but once you share that trust and protect it together....you will be amazed at how sturdy everything around it becomes and it never gets broken.
Thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom. It's inspiring to hear how trust and open communication have been the foundation of your long-lasting relationships. 💞
Because when you date someone, who says they love you. Then you find out that they have been cheating on you. Because they weren't who they said they were. Because they claim it felt good. Now I have the biggest issue to trust anyone else I think about dating or even think of dating again.
In my experience the main takeaway is this : you can't have it all, all the time. What is the PRIORITY for you, appearance or character ? I may have a very slanted view so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I find the "better looking" (there's really no such thing as objective beauty anyways)..... tend to be the ones more likely to cheat. So simply lower the bar and find someone who is less likely to cheat, instead of "dick picks" ...... search for character and be discerning on who there are more than what they look like.
In other words: kindness trumps cuteness any day. @jamiejones3247 Its hard having been cheated on, just remember that 1 negative relationship doesn't mean that everyone who is gay is the same way. I've been in long term, 10 year, relationships and there wasn't any cheating. So it's really not a rule, but it is a myth perpetuated by both anti-gay as well as ignorant gay people in our own community. Don't believe it ! There is someone just like you out there waiting for you, who sees things the same way. There's Billions of people on this planet ! Of course you'll find someone who is a good match eventually and who will by in sync with you.
Thank you so much for yet another amazing episode. I found myself involuntarily crying a bit while I listened attentively. I was one of those kids who knew I was gay in the first grade, but before I had my first crush on a boy in the first grade, I knew that my family rejected everything gay. Trust? I could not trust the people who brought me into the world to love me. That is a pretty bad start. When I tried to grow up in my late teens in the 80s, when I tried to have relationships in my young twenties, I remember I took my boyfriend to gay couples therapy in the early 90s. Mind you, this was in the height of the AIDS epidemic. We could not trust our own neighbors from wishing for us to lose our jobs, our homes, or our lives. When we went to a gay psychotherapist, he looked at us straight in the eyes and without wavering, with full conviction, he said that gay men do not have long term relationships. Can you imagine? I was devastated. Even our gay therapist had raging internalized homophobia. It has been decades, gentlemen, that I have been trying to become an adult and a whole person and heal myself, and I can honestly say that therapy has traveled spiritual light years from where we were forty years ago. I cannot thank you enough for giving voice to our shared trauma in the hopes that we can face our fears and overcome them. I love you guys so much. You are doing amazing and intensely needed work. Thank you for sharing. 🏳🌈❤
It's really really sad that your therapist, and so many in the gay community buy these stereotypes and lies hook, bait, and sinker. to DISAGREE is power ! I'm glad more in our community are starting to disagree and dissent from the mainstream narrative that "gay men can't commit" etc. BUT it's time to go beyond this, and move to the next political step, of closing the bathhouses, cracking down on grindr, and striking a firm stance against drugs and alcohol, or anything else disruptive to healthy stable relationships. Randy Shilts, gay journalist from the 80s, was FOR closing the bathhouses. I am with him 100% to do it once again
I got told recently that a guy missed my member, but he didn't say that he missed me as a whole person. I felt like a piece of meat and not a person with feelings according to this particular person. I was hurt by that conversation and I fear that my willingness to trust anyone to be authentic and real has been devastated.
Thank you! This was a very candid and illuminating discussion. It's a good example of the internal dynamics of any community that has experienced deep misunderstanding and discrimination. Inauthenticity, withdrawal, turning on each other; these are among the kinds of coping strategies we adopt when we haven't had anyone modeling healthy acceptance of self and others in our formative stages. I really appreciate your opening up so honestly about such fundamental matters. ❤️
Near the end of the episode, (I don't remember whom) stated, "Your life experience is YOUR responsibility." That was potent! It's not a contest of who has the greater pain, and the acceptance, ownership and the concrete steps restores one's agency or establishes it where it was lacking (finger pointing to self).
Guys I love your channel. Can you dedicate an episode to loosing gay platonic intimate friendships when they get into a relationships and suddenly you get served coldness and distance? Please! Please!
Super topic and so well presented. Yes, trust is so special and must include talking, honesty, and caring responsibility. Thank you for a great presentation.
"Cupful of trust giving it away" so well said, Calan! I really appreciated how you looked at the trust issue through a historical and generational angle. Great discussion as always!
CHEATING and secret relationships via social media has been #1 for me. At the end of the day, if you don't want to be in a relationship, stop leading people on. Sadly, some act like people are so disposable and perpetuate the trauma.
I enjoyed this discussion. I was very similar to Matt's experience. I would always show all of my personality from the Start. This doesn't work,too much,too soon, especially when the guy other person has yet to say or show anything about themself. And yes ,scruff and grindr is a thing of my past, it was a major meat market and catfishing from the start. So trust was no where to be found and life is already too short to be on "Display" for a stranger . Keep singing Matt, remember you have a gift of song👍
another fundamental is to spend time getting to know each other’s hopes, dreams, needs, etc. and determine if you can mutually benefit from being together.For example, if my need for monogamy goes against my partner’s deep desire for sexual novelty with more than one person, we should not trust each other because for me to succeed, he has to lose and vice versa. You can’t trust that the other person is going to prioritize your needs over theirs. I think in relationships where trust is faltering, one or both parties are sensing at least subtly that there is a conflict between these needs. This is why I think trusting someone you just started dating is ill advised.. you don’t know what they actually want or need yet. You may think you do but are probably trusting who you want them to be at this stage.
I think one factor with gay men in particular is that on average we are more feminine and hence more likely to engage in feminine aggression which can be covert, so gossiping, bitching and deliberate inclusion and exclusion of people in group settings. Gossiping does have benefits you can build up networks but also can have very negative consequences like more likely to break trust. Worth mentioning masculine aggression styles have their negatives as well. In continuation of femininity there is a lot of perfectionism, and hence hypercategorization like otter, twink bear etc and bigger focus on looks and sex etc, focus on picture-perfect instead of imperfectly great relationships. Plus I think gay men are more likely to experience a lot more hate towards them growing up compared to others and it very hard I think to not internalize this hate (especially when younger) and conduct yourself in bitter ways later in life, or gain even subconscious pleasure in drama or seeing even a well known gay man get into drama. So to have more trust gay men have to engage in courage other groups might not even be asked to have and to trust and even show love to other gay men in the face of their bitching or manipulative behaviours with the knowledge that it comes from a place of being hurt.-----------I used to lead an LGBT society at university (college) and felt I was constantly having to put out fires of drama between groups in the society and trying to show people a bigger picture view to foster not avoiding if you have been wronged by someone but not letting it linger.-----------Anyhow I'm a recent discoverer of your channel and love your conversations guys.
thank you so much for your knowledge and for keeping it real! How do I go about becoming a trained counselor? I'd love to help people in my country someday!
We spent a childhood and adolescence being attacked, assaulted and battered for who we are by family and classmates. And you wonder why we have trust issues?? CPTSD all around.
I'm INFJ... I don't really care about what other people think (because I'm a healthy INFJ). I am authentic. Guys are highly attracted to me... until they realize that I expect the same from them... and then they freak out and run.
Calan seems as if he'd rather be someplace else, even guarded in his conversation. Matt seems sincere, maybe sensitive (in a good way). All three of you ramble and are often inarticulate - It's surprising, though Matt probably means well, anyone would come to you (any one of you) for guidance. Cheers!
Younger people have misconceptions about a relationship. Just because guys put everything in both of their names and have matching towels and coffee cups doesn’t mean the relationship is solid. I’ve researched into successful long lasting relationships and there are reasons why it lasts for decades. The first thing is eliminating jealousy and stop testing the person. Both parties need to be mature and level-headed. You don’t move too fast and go into it saying, look, if at anytime you’re not happy or meet someone else, I won’t get in the way. I’d rather have you happy. Believe it or not, you eliminate insecurity and jealousy and stop trying to change the person, just accept who they are, and both of you might have a shot. There are guys who broke up and got back together. But you have to have some level of compatibility. If you’re 50 and dating a 21 year old kid, you’re heading for a disaster. Those are terrible odds. There needs to be maturity and you gotta know what that person wants. Is he into open-relationships and you’re not, then it’s gonna fail. Does he travel a lot and you get jealous, he’ll back away if you start smothering him. You gotta live each day and enjoy each other’s company and if it doesn’t last, if he wants out. Leave him a wide door and let him go. Beating yourself up isn’t gonna change it. Take life one day at a time.
Thank you for all your insights. Very helpful.
I want to suggest something, too. As gay men, we aren't born into our community. Racial and religious minority members (at least the majority of the latter) are born into their communities. And their community is their parents, siblings, extended family, and often friends and neighbors. And they observe/learn a lot about trust in their formative years through all those connections. We don't get to have that.
And often, the first relationship when we do connect with our communities is transactional: You want my body, I want yours. I'm not putting down the sexual aspects of gay culture. I celebrate them--from romantic relationships to FWB to hookups to anonymous encounters, we are more open and direct and honest about satisfying our sexual wants, and I think that's a good thing. But there are bad sides to even many good things. And when your first experience is "This person wanted me until they had me, or wanted me until they didn't. Now I'm nothing to them, worthless. And that's ALL the experience I've had in relation to this community," it creates a psychic wound.
I'd list all the great things you guys said that really resonated with me, but I know I go on way to long to begin with. :) I found so much rich discourse here.
17:45 I always use the phrase "Hurt people, hurt people." But omg I need to also use the positive intention of "Loved people, love people."
I think the most important thing here is our attitude. We all know there are lots of good people out there, so if we have been disappointed or deceived, we have to keep in mind that not everyone is like that and keep giving other people the chance to be part of our lives. If they keep damaging our trust, that’s on them. Good people will arrive eventually. Thanks for this guys, beautiful as always, tight hugs.
In all my relationships...I have one rule, I trust the other person will talk to me if there is a problem that affects both of us and I will do the same. I have had 3 long wonderful relationships spanning from 2005 to 2022. My partners and I had many talks and solved many problems....and the rule to this day has never been broken.
No one wants their own trust broken, but once you share that trust and protect it together....you will be amazed at how sturdy everything around it becomes and it never gets broken.
Thank you for sharing your experience and wisdom. It's inspiring to hear how trust and open communication have been the foundation of your long-lasting relationships. 💞
Because when you date someone, who says they love you. Then you find out that they have been cheating on you. Because they weren't who they said they were. Because they claim it felt good. Now I have the biggest issue to trust anyone else I think about dating or even think of dating again.
I've been there!
In my experience the main takeaway is this : you can't have it all, all the time.
What is the PRIORITY for you, appearance or character ?
I may have a very slanted view so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I find the "better looking" (there's really no such thing as objective beauty anyways)..... tend to be the ones more likely to cheat. So simply lower the bar and find someone who is less likely to cheat, instead of "dick picks" ...... search for character and be discerning on who there are more than what they look like.
In other words: kindness trumps cuteness any day. @jamiejones3247 Its hard having been cheated on, just remember that 1 negative relationship doesn't mean that everyone who is gay is the same way. I've been in long term, 10 year, relationships and there wasn't any cheating. So it's really not a rule, but it is a myth perpetuated by both anti-gay as well as ignorant gay people in our own community. Don't believe it ! There is someone just like you out there waiting for you, who sees things the same way. There's Billions of people on this planet ! Of course you'll find someone who is a good match eventually and who will by in sync with you.
Thank you so much for yet another amazing episode. I found myself involuntarily crying a bit while I listened attentively. I was one of those kids who knew I was gay in the first grade, but before I had my first crush on a boy in the first grade, I knew that my family rejected everything gay. Trust? I could not trust the people who brought me into the world to love me. That is a pretty bad start. When I tried to grow up in my late teens in the 80s, when I tried to have relationships in my young twenties, I remember I took my boyfriend to gay couples therapy in the early 90s. Mind you, this was in the height of the AIDS epidemic. We could not trust our own neighbors from wishing for us to lose our jobs, our homes, or our lives. When we went to a gay psychotherapist, he looked at us straight in the eyes and without wavering, with full conviction, he said that gay men do not have long term relationships. Can you imagine? I was devastated. Even our gay therapist had raging internalized homophobia. It has been decades, gentlemen, that I have been trying to become an adult and a whole person and heal myself, and I can honestly say that therapy has traveled spiritual light years from where we were forty years ago. I cannot thank you enough for giving voice to our shared trauma in the hopes that we can face our fears and overcome them. I love you guys so much. You are doing amazing and intensely needed work. Thank you for sharing. 🏳🌈❤
It's really really sad that your therapist, and so many in the gay community buy these stereotypes and lies hook, bait, and sinker.
to DISAGREE is power ! I'm glad more in our community are starting to disagree and dissent from the mainstream narrative that "gay men can't commit" etc.
BUT it's time to go beyond this, and move to the next political step, of closing the bathhouses, cracking down on grindr, and striking a firm stance against drugs and alcohol, or anything else disruptive to healthy stable relationships.
Randy Shilts, gay journalist from the 80s, was FOR closing the bathhouses. I am with him 100% to do it once again
I got told recently that a guy missed my member, but he didn't say that he missed me as a whole person. I felt like a piece of meat and not a person with feelings according to this particular person. I was hurt by that conversation and I fear that my willingness to trust anyone to be authentic and real has been devastated.
Thank you! This was a very candid and illuminating discussion. It's a good example of the internal dynamics of any community that has experienced deep misunderstanding and discrimination. Inauthenticity, withdrawal, turning on each other; these are among the kinds of coping strategies we adopt when we haven't had anyone modeling healthy acceptance of self and others in our formative stages. I really appreciate your opening up so honestly about such fundamental matters. ❤️
Near the end of the episode, (I don't remember whom) stated, "Your life experience is YOUR responsibility." That was potent! It's not a contest of who has the greater pain, and the acceptance, ownership and the concrete steps restores one's agency or establishes it where it was lacking (finger pointing to self).
Guys I love your channel. Can you dedicate an episode to loosing gay platonic intimate friendships when they get into a relationships and suddenly you get served coldness and distance? Please! Please!
Great suggestion. Thank you 🙏
Really appreciate the honesty of this panel
Super topic and so well presented. Yes, trust is so special and must include talking, honesty, and caring responsibility. Thank you for a great presentation.
"Cupful of trust giving it away" so well said, Calan! I really appreciated how you looked at the trust issue through a historical and generational angle. Great discussion as always!
Thanks so much!
CHEATING and secret relationships via social media has been #1 for me. At the end of the day, if you don't want to be in a relationship, stop leading people on. Sadly, some act like people are so disposable and perpetuate the trauma.
Couldn’t agree more 👏
I enjoyed this discussion. I was very similar to Matt's experience. I would always show all of my personality from the Start. This doesn't work,too much,too soon, especially when the guy other person has yet to say or show anything about themself. And yes ,scruff and grindr is a thing of my past, it was a major meat market and catfishing from the start. So trust was no where to be found and life is already too short to be on "Display" for a stranger . Keep singing Matt, remember you have a gift of song👍
A million thank yous from a Fellow traveller in Copenhagen, denmark ❤️
another fundamental is to spend time getting to know each other’s hopes, dreams, needs, etc. and determine if you can mutually benefit from being together.For example, if my need for monogamy goes against my partner’s deep desire for sexual novelty with more than one person, we should not trust each other because for me to succeed, he has to lose and vice versa. You can’t trust that the other person is going to prioritize your needs over theirs. I think in relationships where trust is faltering, one or both parties are sensing at least subtly that there is a conflict between these needs. This is why I think trusting someone you just started dating is ill advised.. you don’t know what they actually want or need yet. You may think you do but are probably trusting who you want them to be at this stage.
I think one factor with gay men in particular is that on average we are more feminine and hence more likely to engage in feminine aggression which can be covert, so gossiping, bitching and deliberate inclusion and exclusion of people in group settings. Gossiping does have benefits you can build up networks but also can have very negative consequences like more likely to break trust. Worth mentioning masculine aggression styles have their negatives as well. In continuation of femininity there is a lot of perfectionism, and hence hypercategorization like otter, twink bear etc and bigger focus on looks and sex etc, focus on picture-perfect instead of imperfectly great relationships. Plus I think gay men are more likely to experience a lot more hate towards them growing up compared to others and it very hard I think to not internalize this hate (especially when younger) and conduct yourself in bitter ways later in life, or gain even subconscious pleasure in drama or seeing even a well known gay man get into drama. So to have more trust gay men have to engage in courage other groups might not even be asked to have and to trust and even show love to other gay men in the face of their bitching or manipulative behaviours with the knowledge that it comes from a place of being hurt.-----------I used to lead an LGBT society at university (college) and felt I was constantly having to put out fires of drama between groups in the society and trying to show people a bigger picture view to foster not avoiding if you have been wronged by someone but not letting it linger.-----------Anyhow I'm a recent discoverer of your channel and love your conversations guys.
thank you so much for your knowledge and for keeping it real! How do I go about becoming a trained counselor? I'd love to help people in my country someday!
I relate so much Thanks xxxx
We spent a childhood and adolescence being attacked, assaulted and battered for who we are by family and classmates. And you wonder why we have trust issues?? CPTSD all around.
Thank you for this!! ❤️❤️❤️
I'm INFJ... I don't really care about what other people think (because I'm a healthy INFJ). I am authentic. Guys are highly attracted to me... until they realize that I expect the same from them... and then they freak out and run.
I need one of you for coaching
You can contact Michael for coaching at www.wellismo.com or on his channel @WellismoCoaching
Calan seems as if he'd rather be someplace else, even guarded in his conversation. Matt seems sincere, maybe sensitive (in a good way). All three of you ramble and are often inarticulate - It's surprising, though Matt probably means well, anyone would come to you (any one of you) for guidance. Cheers!
Younger people have misconceptions about a relationship. Just because guys put everything in both of their names and have matching towels and coffee cups doesn’t mean the relationship is solid. I’ve researched into successful long lasting relationships and there are reasons why it lasts for decades. The first thing is eliminating jealousy and stop testing the person. Both parties need to be mature and level-headed. You don’t move too fast and go into it saying, look, if at anytime you’re not happy or meet someone else, I won’t get in the way. I’d rather have you happy. Believe it or not, you eliminate insecurity and jealousy and stop trying to change the person, just accept who they are, and both of you might have a shot. There are guys who broke up and got back together. But you have to have some level of compatibility. If you’re 50 and dating a 21 year old kid, you’re heading for a disaster. Those are terrible odds. There needs to be maturity and you gotta know what that person wants. Is he into open-relationships and you’re not, then it’s gonna fail. Does he travel a lot and you get jealous, he’ll back away if you start smothering him. You gotta live each day and enjoy each other’s company and if it doesn’t last, if he wants out. Leave him a wide door and let him go. Beating yourself up isn’t gonna change it. Take life one day at a time.