Minecraft's Biggest Cheater Just Made A Shocking Confession...
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- Опубліковано 26 січ 2023
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Today we revisit the Minecraft speedrunner MinecrAvenger who recently made a full confession to cheating his speedruns. Let's take a look at what everyone missed.
NiceTwice video: • Every Minecraft Speedr...
MinecrAvenger video: • Video
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can someone answer me something about this whole video? like tell me this, is this a habit for people to cheat, or if people cheat once in their life on purpose, they can learn what it's like being caught red handed? like is that another reason why people cheat? is it possible that kosmic cheated once in his life before being the greatest mario speed runner of all time?
Ok karl
Well my skin is fine :)
The sponsorship wasn't related to gaming, although the offer does sound interesting ngl
At this point there should be a Cheating% category, where we can see how far these cheaters can go, no holding back.
trueee
That's literally what a TAS is. He could have been a well-respected TASer but instead chose to submit his fake runs as real. But TASers aren't nearly as famous as top runners. The reason he cheated was for attention and because he thought he could get away with it if he was careful enough.
@@hottoast16 I won't lie, I would be interested in a separate category for TAS that didn't allow for the exact input mapping or whatever it is called. Basically you have to actually play the game, but can cheat in pretty much every other way. Would be interesting to see how the cheats evolve while also hopefully keeping the majority of the cheats developed in the public view so it is easier to spot them in normal runs.
Time travel % is done in literally one second.
@@Chillz_OG I would watch that
These cheaters exposing each other is just a real life version of the pointing Spider-Man meme
they catch each other because they recognize the cheats lol
You have to become one to catch the another.
i put this dudes wr speedrun inputs into a tas and guess what??? it didnt get near the time . strange that
@@ericandruszko7563 honestly he should have just become a moderator if hes this good at detecting cheats
No it's worse. It would b like 3 SEPARATE ppl impersonating spiderman pointing at each other 🙄
The fact that minecravenger is himself the one who alerted the community to and told them how to spot these shenanigans during the dream debacle only to get a reverse uno from said community is just hilarious
he knew because he use it XD
The community stans the big fish and crush the smallers.
I just want to see the armies of dream supporters get their fingers out to defend monecravenger ;)
That’s why tas exist
@@livanbard I don't think there's a snowballs chance in hel that Minecravenger or any other minecraft cheater is going to get the same level of backlash as Dream. People acted like Dream killed a man.
These cheaters are the literal definition of “takes one to know one”.
Reminds me of election data experts
yes and no. I mean after watching cheaters and knowing how they play you can sometimes spot it. but its rare
Dream helped catch drem and then this bruh what ia this jenga tower of cheaters
@@_aWiseMan a wise man once said "what is this jenga tower of cheaters"
judge: you are guilty of murder
murderer: ha! takes one to know one
If he wasn't caught, his next plan was to start mailing riddles to the authorities.
im cheating. I'm cheating. I'M CHEATING!
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if someone was cheating and slowing increased their risk factor just to see how long it took to get caught. That would be an entertaining video in its own right.
@@BobSentell there WAS something like that. A Ghost 'n Goblins run was submitted and it was super fake on purpose, but nobody batted an eye until the guy had to state that himself. He got banned even though it was entirely the mods' fault for accepting a submission without checking it.
@@anothenblue2630 Do you have a link to this? Sounds super funny.
@@anothenblue2630 It's not the mods fault that someone decided to be unfair. But yes, the mods incompetence shouldn't go unnoticed either
@@CricetoFunni It's called "My OBVIOUS Fake Speedrun that got Verified" by Loan Shark Joe
Watching this video and seeing how cheating spawns and drop rates is almost undetectable makes me think Minecraft speedrunning must have rampant cheating.
Exactly. That´s basically why it seems inevitable that a "competitive patch" will be necessary that checks for modified values. He did mention it at the end of the video.
I’ll never understand why people cheat at anything. The whole point of winning is to accomplish something and trying to be the best at what you do. I guess when you grow up with “everyone gets a trophy” it means nothing anyway. I can’t believe how many losers there are out there.
@@reagandow850 people who cheat want the feeling of accomplishing something. They wanna feel like "wow i have a world record in a game ran by hundreds of top class players". Its the fame that gets in their heads
@@reagandow850 money
Well lucky it's just Minecraft
You mentioned that most faked runs are caught immediately. It would be an interesting video idea to look at a bunch of them and see all the stupidly bad ways people have tried to cheat.
He already made that video
you can search up for runs like big tony and drem did but most of faked speedruns videos are clickbait nowadays
@@jojoversus1100 well make it again
lmao I hate cheaters but this lowkey makes me wanna test how long it would take ppl to notice if I was cheating (not gonna but i am curious)
unfortunately most of the cheated runs you find are clickbait or obvious jokes so it's hard to find the serious ones
I bet you there is some strange thing in the way that dolphins spawn at a given depth that leads to them facing a certain direction and then in his run the pathing of the dolphin shows an error in how dolphins are supposed to swim because it needed to correct it’s path or didn’t respond to the presence of the player model in the right way. Legit when it comes to the Minecraft videos every bit of proof seems as insane as every bit of the legitimate runs. That is impressive and terrifying.
Dolphins AI turns off when the player gets far enough away. I don’t know if that is relevant, by just a weird fact
@@OR56 there's nothing weird about it, most games do that to save resources by disabling/hiding something that player can't see anyway.
@@hardVatsuki It kills them though. They stop moving, even while they are still in render distance, and drown.
@@OR56 ....well now i think I know what happens to my pet dolphins each time I leave my base.
@@neoqwerty You can put them in a tank with soul sand on the bottom, and if it has glass over it, it won't throw them out, and they will still be able to breathe.
Honestly, this makes me wonder why more cheaters don't go down this route when they get caught. Coming clean and showing exactly how you did it can be a big help to the community, and because of that, save them a lot of ill-will in the long run. Not only is it genuinely the right thing to do, but even thinking about it selfishly, it still seems like a no-brainer.
I think it's because most cheaters are narcissists & most narcissists find it nearly impossible to admit to wrongdoing unless they've already gotten away with it & are bragging because no one caught them.
@@D_YellowMadness Do you guys even know what a "narcissist" is? I know the internet hastily throws around that word, but still.
What interest would a cheater have in 'helping the community'? If they had any desire to improve the community they wouldfn't do the exact opposite by submitting cheated runs and lying to the community to begin with.
@@arstulex Like I said, it seems like the obvious move from a selfish perspective too, because it saves them a ton of face.
@@Judgement_Kazzy You clearly don’t understand cheaters at all. They cheat without getting caught and they earn a good reputation. Someone catches them and their reputation is jeopardized, they want to keep their fame and reputation so they double down on it. You also seem to be confused and think that someone calling them out with good evidence means it’s all over for them anyways. Lmao, have you never seen other videos on this channel? People still believe cheaters even after getting “caught”. And the fact that they can get away with it by “doubling down” is exactly why they do it.
That’s why the only “nail” in the coffin in these cases is that someone comes out and says “yep, I cheated”. Pretty sure some Golden Eye or Doom speedrunners swayed the community for so long until they admit it because even after cheating, they still had some WRs that weren’t disproven yet until after they’ve admitted it.
speedrunning communities need people who literally only find new ways to cheat runs, and then let moderators try to find all the ways they cheated, and if the mods can't find them all then the runner tells them what they did
Instead of glitch Hunter it’s cheat Hunter
This is something I have actually thought about doing. Can I find ways to "Cheat" and then report my findings (helping to expand detection). I just question if I have time to do stuff like this
So you mean cybersecurity flaw detection but for Minecraft Speedrunning?
@@Ange1ofD4rkness I mean these mods have time to moderate. Somebody will have time for this. They research this stuff more than I ever would
Pen testing for speed running!
If I recall correctly, Dream also called someone out for cheating, once.
So the cycle continues.
Now we investigate everybody involved in investigating minecravenger
As it was, that one was revealed to be an issue of Google Drive changing files' creation times to the same time but PST, which confused people because both the runner accused and Dream live in EST.
Wasthat an accusation? Didn't Dream just bring something to the moderators attention
@@edschelchang6123 refer to my comment/reply earlier in the chain for the context about what happened.
@@serbianspaceforce6873and then burn the ashes
I honestly think there should be "manipulated" speed run categories where people can submit manipulated runs.
These runs are open to scrutiny for 1 month which players are allowed to scrutinise the runs for how they are manipulated.
At the end of one month, if players cannot pick how it is manipulated, it is then entered into the leaderboards along with the player revealing how the run has been manipulated.
I picture this working similar to TAS runs, allowing players to identify new strategies for cheating and allowing for higher quality control for actual submitted speed runs.
people are just gonna challenge themselves to get into the leaderboards by straight up not cheating
Can you imagine the scandal if the manipulated record was taken by someone who didn't actually manipulate anything?
@@nihilvoxIt wasn't code manipulation, it was social manipulation! Fooled you all!
@@memiix they'd have to admit how they cheated at the end or they cant be put up
@@enccy3410 they cheated by... not cheating i guess?
this situation really reminds me of the trackmania cheating scandals where a new competitive patch is made so that only runs on there can be submitted. I think its a good route to go for these types of large speedrunning communities as a whole, albeit needing a lot more effort from the moderation side
Would it be possible to do the same for Minecraft? Build a custom version of each patch category that disallows modding or checks for any file alteration?
@@JimKirk1 it’s hard as the jar files can be edited
I think it needs to be said that MineCravenger fully confessed at this point and it's equally safe to say Riolu will NEVER confess!
I'm still kind of amazed that Riolu chose to end a _decade-long elite level career_ rather than just own up to cheating.
For the record, there's a mod in development for minecraft that provides an audit of all the random rolls in the game. I assume this includes seeds, and if it does, it pretty much eliminates all the possibility of cheating. The world record managers could just auto reject any runs without this mod if they want to be super strict.
Edit: lol he mentioned it later sorry
I'm watching this as an VFX animator. So many of these could've been easily hidden if he had some after effects knowledge. I have no doubt other people do, and are covering up cheating.
Right? A few of these where they catch it because of some poor editing and I am thinking "wait they could have done it this way". And I am only mediocre at video editing
clearly you have a prosperous future in minecraft speedrun cheating
Any cheat that relies on advanced After Effects knowledge could probably fool most people into not investigating, but yeah experts won't be fooled. Similarly it probably won't do much once clips are automatically subjected to waveform and video analysis (and maybe even AI checks for aberrations between one submission and most others which could catch somebody like Schmooey). It'll be interesting to see how speedrunning changes once the tech catches up.
probly people are insanely mentally ill now
Why not upload a cheat run and do a break down on how its a cheat run and things to look out for when looking for cheat runs.
Shoutouts to the guilty conscience that some folks have and the ability to swallow pride to come out with all the details. Maybe he can stay in the community as someone who helps prevent this sort of thing happening in the future.
He is sorry about getting caught, definitely didn't come clean until all the evidence was placed against him. He also still profited tons from all of the attention and views he got over the years. But being up front and admitting it is better than what most do..
@@zicorbett4660 of course he's sorry about being caught
An actual strong guilt conscience of a good person would lead them to turn themselves in during the 2-3 years of cheating, this was only in damage control mode after being caught and he literally lied again after being caught and confronted before finally admitting what was already known… no praise for that at all, praise the cheaters with an actual good guilty conscience where the guilt starts eating at them and they turn themselves in before any suspicions or confrontations are raised, which is very rare. Apologizing only after the fact(and after trying to double down upon first confrontation) is self-preservation and damage control and being sorry they were caught
I don't excuse cheating, but props to him for coming clean for things nobody even knew
Yeah at least he admited and was ready to face the consequences, that's more than many other cheaters can say.
He may be a cheater but at least he still has some pride leftover
@@mitri4939you people confuse saving face with being sorry...
I think a super interesting speed run category could be “this run has cheating, but if no one can accurately guess how, it stands until it’s figured out or some one beats the time.” It would take people being 100% honest when some one guesses accurately but it could be super creative
Edit: maybe the person who uploads the cheated run will let the moderation team know how it was cheated so the community can start investigating without needing the runner to be present for it.
I agree! One, that sounds entertaining to watch, and two, it's a good outlet for cheating. There could also be a reduced RNG category where loot and dragon behaviors are made more consistent through a community chosen resource pack. I would never try speed running minecraft now because of all the RNG on top of the high skill ceiling, but something like this would help.
It also lets people get better at finding cheats
@@supercyclone8342 That already exists - there's a datapack that removes almost all RNG (drop rates, dragon perch, mobs) which people do runs using.
So basically penn & teller "fool us" but for speedruns?
@@Laezar1 exactly
When these things get uncovered it's kind of like magic. After you're shown the secret, you think "oh it's so obvious, why didn't I see that?" I don't play Minecraft but I can see how the Obsidian label thing is one of those hidden-in-plain-sight situations.
it was also quickly covered up by the flint&steel name showing up, so you'd have to have had a vendetta against Minecravenger, tabbing through their speedruns frame by frame to spot it, really...
I mean, it's literally like magic. The goal is to hide things that are going on from you, or make you believe something different from than what really happened, and the way you do this is to hide your tricks in ways you're not likely to pay attention to.
Why are you watching a minecraft cheating video if you don't even play the game 💀
@@zartexkrontaculys1097 you do realise that this channel covers a bunch of topics related to speedrunning, not just Minecraft right?
@@hannessteffenhagen61 no I didn't realize that why, oh. Ohhh...
A mod that runners could required to use when recording runs is newchunks, which shows what chunks are new and which ones have been previously loaded in by players. It is usually used as a cheat in multiplayer servers for base hunting, but it would've busted the cheater when he spawned in a dolphin to swim to a ruined portal faster.
That wouldn't work; even someone with little programming experience can create a copy of the mod that will always return new chunks; You just simply remove most of the code and make the check pass each time
I think that one thing this story says is that if a top runner who streams is getting most of their pbs off stream, that's a red flag. It may mean nothing in the end, but it's definitely worth taking a second look at
Cheating so deep I wouldn't be surprised if Minecravenger was actually playing terraria the whole time
I didn’t suspect anything until you brought it up, but now that you mention it, the dragon kill with the SDMG was a little peculiar
That explains the copper shortsword actually
So that's why he had a cobalt shield
Explains the Last Prism he was using.
@@1th_to_comment. explains why he had accessory slots in the first place
Honestly what I find crazy is *just how many* different cheating methods he employed at the same time. Like jeez at some point you'd think "damn I'm really just not that good at speed running this game" when you're using such an arsenal of cheats in tandem.
The more cheating methods you use at once, the more subtle each one can be.
idk minecraft speedruns take a lot of skill but fuck there's so much RNG, right? most of the cheats he used were to improve things that are controlled by RNG. and i think if the dude actually sucked at runs people would have been suspicious way earlier
if he was bad at the game his cheating wouldn't have been so subtle
@@GammaJK Yeah, that's an interesting idea. There's probably people who deserve to be way higher on the Minecraft leader boards, but just aren't because of bad RNG. And there's certainly people who shouldn't be as high as they are on the leader boards, but good RNG just put them there. significantly increasing the luck so players can just mostly test their skill if they so choose is a good solution. Either that, or you may just have to find a new game to speed run that's not so luck dependent.
@@GammaJK This is why I like set seed runs
Glad they came clean and even explained what wasn't found. It would be cool if people like that could be used as a reference of sorts by the mods to see if suspicious runs might be cheated and how. I would be reluctant to make a previous cheater a mod, but consulting them I can have no problem with.
Shower thought:The reason cheaters never prosper is because the ones that get away with it aren’t known to be cheaters
Good point lol
..yes never getting caught is indeed a prerequisite to not being seen as a cheater.
This is insane, it’s like someone being stopped to take out their phone before going through the metal detector before they essentially just spill out 50 different metal objects
That scene in The Matrix.
Imagine you're at the airport and the TSA stops you because they found a bottle containing 5oz of liquid, then you show them all the guns and explosives you brought, and explain exactly how you got them through security.
Nah, he used those already, remember?
The interesting thing is, in the video back in November, I noticed that he got flint from gravel on his first try in the impossible chest speedrun, and thought, that's incredibly lucky, he got lucky, alongside cheating. And I believe Karl even mentioned that the dolphin swimming alongside and giving him a speed boost was another lucky break that couldn't have been cheated, in a cheated speedrun. But when taken together, and after knowing the truth, it seems so obvious. He got lucky, while cheating, so it's logical that the luck was cheated.
“I only faked one run”
Literally every speed runner who’s cheated multiple different speed runs 😂
No no don't scrutinize my older runs. They were legit I promise.
Tbh what really gets me about this particular cheating skandal is that MinecrAvenger not only tarnished his own reputation, but also that of his brother just due to their association.
Sucks that people are so damn prone to the guilt by association fallacy.
Not in anyone's eyes whose opinions are worth a damn.
That's just the average person being stupid.
"skandal"
@@NomDatBass it's reasonable to question if someone whose very close to a cheater, and is speedrunning the same game as a cheater, might be using the same tricks/tools the cheater did. Or even if they just knew anything but kept quiet.
MineCravenger didn't come forward about anything until people got hard evidence against him. So if NiceTwice isn't thoroughly investigated and cleared, he could also just...not be coming forward and hoping his own cheating goes under the radar.
Do I think he did cheat? No, but again it's a reasonable question to ask and one that's going to stick around unless he gets officially cleared.
For those of you who don't want to watch MinecrAvenger's video, the reasons he cheated were:
1. It was a fun way for him to explore the game's code and learn more about coding
2. It was too easy to get away with
3. He had a lot of other things going on in his life, so cheating was a way for him to devote less time to speedrunning while still remaining competitve
While I appreciate him coming clean, and I appreciate him not just using the old "there was too much pressure on me to do well" excuse for cheating, I personally don't really find any of these reasons to be acceptable excuses.
Basically, just because they're valid excuses doesn't mean they're acceptable.
They're not excuses, they're reasons, like you said. Cheating was easy and fun, so he did it. Can't rely on peoples moral sense, so you gotta make cheating harder and less fun in a competitive environment.
Huh. Interesting. I would of figured that sibling rivalry would of played a part in his reasons for cheating.
@@SpedyFoxIV I suspect it probably was a reason, but he wouldn't admit it since it might strain his relationship with his brother depending on how things are between them after this whole thing. Just my thought.
@@PlayerofGamesx I'm guessing they meant that the new restrictions might affect legitimate playthroughs
Hey Karl,
Just wanted to say you're looking great and hope the cancer treatments are going well, looking forward to all of the great content from the OG absolute legend in 2023!
the sheer balls he had to not only admit his mistakes
but also point out other mistakes to prevent further cheating is insane
Honestly, these videos get me so interested in TAS runs personally. Would love a category that intentionally blurs the line in this manner. Like being required to list out your changes, but let not exactly where they happen while allowing the community to try and pinpoint exact locations where the tool assists come in. lol
I would watch a cheat%
Cheat% does sound like a fun thing to watch. I would be very curious at how quickly a Cheat% All Achievements Run goes.
I'd love to see different types of cheaters use different techniques to climb the ladder or show crazy game breaking runs, TAS or not!
I think what's interesting is that when a cheated run is found, investigation on it usually stops. Once it's determined to be fake via one piece of evidence most people don't see any reason to keep digging, but if the goal is to prevent future cheating, that's what needs to be done.
It’s somewhat satisfying that he’s confessing and pointing the tricks and splice he did to inform others that speenrun can be easily faked
Maybe there could be “cheating contests” where the goal is to try to get around the rules in a “test it till it breaks” sort of way. Unless they already do that and I’m just oblivious 😅
Would make a cheating category even be a bad thing? honestly hard to say at this point.
Can't say I'm surprised because MC has always been a top contender for speedruns that are easy to cheat. It's ridiculously easy to mod, it's so stupidly complex that even marginally changing something can make WR runs exponentially easier (but still take time to get) and the scene is still pretty new and inexperienced compared to others. IMO, the moderation team should take a page out of real world sports and even government agencies: If someone's figured out how to smash the system, hire them and have them show you everything. Sort of like how there are completely above-the-board hacker conventions and security conventions where burglary specialists give talks and demonstrate tools.
That's makes a lot of sense. Good point, I agree.
the moderators on the leaderboards are unpaid volunteers, how and why should they pay cheaters?
@@giulioceresini1435 They could just, you know, ask them for help. And the why is quite literally in the post, dunno how you missed it.
True, plus he figured our dream was cheating
Seems like the only way to make sure is to somehow have something like Doom's demo files for every game and not accept video evidence, but even that requires expert analysis sometimes.
This makes me sad tbh, not that he confessed ofc, but how much was cheated and how many of those cheats would not have been detected unless he confessed.
It really removes some of the joy of watching speedruns when you constently think "Is this legit?" I hope the countermeasures being developed can alleviate these issues.
Right I have started to get into watching these more and more, thanks to Karl, but at the same time go "wow that was amazing, but I hope it was legit"
That was part of his goal for revealing those cheats. He got caught, so now he's trying to spread doubt and invalidate the community itself as he's on his way out.
@@ForeverLaxx thats ignorant. Cheating is much more rampent then anyone wants to accept. On twitch/gameplay videos and speedrunning.
@@Pes._ What's "ignorant" is your comment as it has nothing to do with what I said. Try again later.
@@ForeverLaxx yet it does. (Sad how little you care about what you say) im adressing the 2nd sentence in your comment. Stop looking for dunks or gotchas, this isnt twitter and your dad isnt coming back.
Cheating is super common, so having this guy explain everything is a pretty good move, I respect that.
I love his honesty. Him confessing to something that cannot be caught (such as the dolphin) is very nice, and noone else would probably have admitted to that.
Karl Jobst is the only UA-camr I can think of whose clickbait-y titles aren't actually clickbait, and in fact help to encapsulate the madness contained within each video. Great content as always, Karl.
Mr Beast
Mr beast's content has only gone downhill since the squid game vid. I would say its mostly due to the fact that his content was only entertaining as he would always top his last video. Also, most of his content has moments that pull on your heart strings. It's hard to be biased towards things that make you emotionally feel something.
Graystillplays
I mean, what other video has something like 'Shocking Confession' in the title and said confession is *_actually_* shocking.
An interesting category that could be implemented is cheated speed runs but the cheat needs to be as subtle and hard to find as possible
Hard enough to define what a glitch is, for the glitch and glitchless categories. Trying to define a "subtle cheating " category would be a nightmare.
@@KaylaJoyGunn believe me I know. It was just a idea this video had me thinking
@@KaylaJoyGunn Seemingly, the idea would be "If we don't find it, it's subtle enough."
Crazy to hear about everything that happened. Thanks for being informative as always Karl Jobst!
i honestly have respect for this guy for coming clean, especially about the stuff they couldn't prove
Thank god, I've been starving for another minecraft cheater video
I said it before: There are way more cheaters who go completely undetected than there are those who get caught. It answers the burning question so many people have: why does it always seem like the cheaters make the most silly mistakes that cause them to get caught? You see, it's because we only catch those who make those silly mistakes. Those that do not make mistakes and are careful will be able to create perfectly spliced videos that are undetectable by any means, they will review their footage dozens of times to make sure it's spotless, and they will not submit runs that are too suspect to invite scrutiny.
Yep, that's basically it, only bad (or average) cheaters get caught
No, there's just no way. Most cheaters put in zero effort at all and get caught immediately.
Maybe, at the top level, there's more cheaters to be found, but it is likely not that many as a percentage, and it would pale in comparison to the hundreds and thousands of cheated runs at any level
In a practical sense cheating at this level is impractical. If cheating requires more time, effort, skill and devotion than just doing the thing properly, most will shy away from it. Obviously there's a lot of wiggle room in there, but it's unlikely such small niche communities have that many people devoted to the praise and accolades of a small group of peers.
@Damian Mielcarek ...you know that a vast majority of criminals never gets caught, right? It's the same principle.
@@puppieslovies Okay to be fair, I did not even count those who upload obviously cheated runs that get discovered immediately or in a day or two. If you count those then yeah sure, majority are stupid.
I guess this is a better way to phrase my argument: For every high profile cheater like Minecraft Avenger, there are two or more that slip under the radar and are never found.
The most bullet-proof approach to anti-cheating-via-mods is a recording of player input that's fed to a trusted engine (like I take it was done with TrackMania). Then they can be fed to a trusted copy of the game and the movie generated. This requires a completely deterministic game engine with no effect from the machine configuration/speed, and having the proper version to replay the player input to. This doesn't stop cheating with tool-assistance, generating and editing the player input frame by frame for the perfect run, though.
I can appreciate him coming clean and explaining the cheating that he did. It will help both him and the community get past this issue
Spotting increased drop rates with just two drops or so and secretly spawning something in...
who knows how many high-level-runners have also cheated (not just in Minecraft)
Could be seen as a problem with having runs being submitted from home rather than live events or so (like competitions in most sports) - applies to online eSports events like CS:GO too
Doesn't necessarily have to be live events, perhaps in future runners will have to livestream all attempts in order to make the run eligible. I think this is the future of speedrunning, as it is easy to do and makes cheating much harder.
@@IAMMARTICUS1470 Where do you live that you would think that? I have an average internet connection for my country, and I literally had ookla measure 0.00 Mbps Upload one time.
Also, altered rates would still have to be detected through intense efforts by people watching the streams, while a competitive patch for the game could do it automatically, immediately and way more reliably
I'm no programmer, but coding and maintaining such a patch sounds easier than checking on everyone the hard way
@@see3655 streaming in low res should be just fine in most places. But a patch could also work very well. The problem is making the patches in the first place, but once done is a very nice solution
@@IAMMARTICUS1470 This system would be exclusive to a lot of players who don't have decent internet and hardware, preventing them from playing competitively
The cheat detection would still rely on nothing but visible clues that would have to be found and worked out just by watching the recording.
It would rely on 3rd parties, the streaming services.
People could easily just stream prerecorded videos.
All those stream recordings would take stupid amounts of storage which is expensive and bad for the environment
Et cetera...
Sounds really flawed if you ask me, now compare that to a small sized file that anyone can install for free and that can reliably detect things like altered drop rates, like Karl mentioned in the video. The trackmania Nations Forever community has a great example for such a system.
@@see3655 bad for the environment, oh no
With all these cheaters being caught it's mind boggling to me how the majority of gaming viewers still think cheating is out in the fringes of likelihood, and not only that, but they often get angry when it is brought up. If there aren't highly regulated LAN tournaments, chances are high that the best players are cheaters; this should be a non-brainer. It's like if a doctor could get their licence strictly online and then people get mad at you for wanting to test his claimed credentials in real life; it's absurd.
0:00 I like the usage of the "Colonial Explore" theme from FTL: Faster Than Light, I like seeing that amazing OST used in more videos.
I hate to say I "respect" someone who cheated but I do have respect for the complete honesty that Minecravenger showed in this video. No better way to learn what to look for in cheated runs than to learn from someone who has done it themselves.
Edit: Realized you said basically the same thing as I did here later in the video. While cheating is an incredibly scummy thing to do in competition, I don't believe that all cheaters are terrible people. People that can own up to it and even actively help out the community in finding other cheaters should be given credit when it's due.
Yeah, exposing yourself that way isn't something most people have the balls to do
@@coin4898 Might not be to you, but cheating in speedrunning is a major problem. At the end of the day, its a competition, people get paid real money and can build careers through this, the fame (even if small in comparison to other competition) should go to those who deserve it.
I think the worst part about this is that the cheating is only providing a little bit of time save. The guy is clearly one of the better players of the game but felt that his skills just weren't good enough.
I mean...same with Dream. Same with lots of em
"It may seem counterintuitive, but you'd be surprised at how often it's some of the best players that inevitably try to fake runs. You might think that having the *talent* to achieve the world record would make someone less susceptible to cheating, but it often works against them. Having talent tends to make people feel entitled. They feel like they deserve the world record, and when the game they play doesn't give them the luck they need, they become increasingly frustrated. On top of this, having talent and deep knowledge of a game makes you a better cheater. You know what tools to use and how to hide your edits. You understand what does or doesn't make sense, what is or isn't possible, and what's believable. ... The fact that better players make better cheaters means that arguments such as 'He's such a good player, he has no reason to cheat.' are fundamentally flawed. When [REDACTED] and [REDACTED] were exposed as frauds, this was one of the most common arguments their defenders tried to make. If anything, having a better understanding of a game makes you even more likely to cheat, which is why at the top level, proof standards are so important."
- Karl Jobst in his video titled The Worst Fake Speedrun on UA-cam
i think with most cheaters who are very good at the game, it's more that they know how skilled they are but dont want to put in the time needed to get good enough luck, so that's what they manipulate. like, "im good enough to get the world record, i shouldnt have to work so hard for it"
The need for a higher score or faster time can become irrational eventually. Which isn't surprising because how many 'normal' people would play a level hundreds of times just to shave 0.1s off a time.
1, seconds count. 2, it's not just a "little bit" of a time save. Bad RNG can completely fuck over what would have been a world record run, and now because of the bad RNG, you have to try again. You have try over and over waiting for 2 separate things to align, a good world seed, and good RNG. Removing the RNG factor significantly speeds things up. Now you're only looking for a good world seed. What would take months of attempts can now be done in less than a week. It's not hard to see why people may cheat when the alternative is literally wasting months of your life. He cheated precisely because his skills were already good enough, not because he didn't feel skilled enough.
Kudos to him for revealing more than what was already known/suspected.
The only conceivable thing I would give a cheater kudos for is if they come forward on their own before they are exposed. Do I mildly put him higher than someone like Dream who never admitted to knowingly doing it, claiming some "I forgot to turn the mods off" BS, but continuously shits on people who made videos exposing him? Sure, he's one tier above that. He's still not someone who deserves "kudos" in any way.
@@HeelBJC Not for me to judge. A cheater, yes, but did something unexpected, which is to admit more than what he was accused of. Does that make up for all the bad? No.
@@HeelBJC kudos because doing good things should be rewarded even when you have multiple bad things under your arm
LOL the Perfect Dark soundtrack playing during the geologie sponsor bit is great XD
Broh! I just looked at your videolist - you are killing it with views! Good for you my man.
Talking about RNG of Minecraft, I would guess there is a mod that removes it from item drops, pigling sales etc, by replacing it by a set amount of randomish numbers (like how Doom works). Would be interesting to see if any speedruns are done in their own category with something like this.
they oughtta make a speedrunning patch that makes all the drops 100%
It already exist, search for pogloot
I wonder how would runs go without rng loots or trades only using the most basic non rng drop loots
-Exposes Dream for raising his luck with a mod
-Does literally the same
it's a world of survival. double standards is key
I had exactly the same idea. To create client (or mod) which records all calls to RNG and RNG initialization. It doesn't eliminate cheating, but makes it much more harder.
Hi, im not a speedrunner myself, just a gamer and very curious person and i always find your videos very interesting, so just spreading some love, keep at it you absolute legend!
it sounds pretty easy to modify the client or the data sent to the client to continue cheating
Yeah that was my thought too. Nothing would be stopping a sufficiently informed cheater of faking the data that would be fed by this "competitive client."
Anti cheat and anti vm?
tbh it's a cat and mouse game between finding new ways to cheat and them being patched out later 😅😅😅😂
You can even accidentally do so and it stays even if you remove the mod. I know because that happened to me by accident using old Pixelmon in 1.10
I love Karl Jobsts outro. that "I WILL see you in the next video", like he just knows that his content is so good that everyone returns to watch more.
*dies in a car crash, god forbid*
Watching those cheating scandals as a fellow speedrunner and a game mod in NFS games makes me sad . Speedrunning should be the ultimate showcase of skill + intelligence in very fast pace . In the past people were cheating waaaaay less and they were trusting each other more , nowadays even though we have better proof of a run , people tend to cheat more .. very very sad . Anyways great video as always Karl !
Glad to see them coming forward about this.
11:33 "A client is being worked on that the top players need to connect to if they want to submit runs. when played through this client, all of the RNG elements are checked to ensure the game hasn't been modified."
Didn't Dream propose this idea when he was caught cheating? Not meaning to defend him, but its weird that the same idea that they shot down is being worked on now.
First we wait for Dream to kill himself so he won't feel proud we took his suggestion
Couldn't you run a patched version of their client to spoof the anticheat checks?
(Either by static changes to the executable or dynamic code injection while the program is in memory)
While it could try to do sanity checking via hashes of its memory space and files, the code that performs those checks is still running on an untrusted machine where it can be invisibly replaced with some appropriate "not cheating" value.
Ultimately it's a userspace program and at the mercy of the system administrator of the client machine (i.e. the cheater).
You mentioned several tricks he used being undetectable when done offline. Tricks like those are why many speedrunning leaderboards have a requirement that your run have been livestreamed, and a link to the VOD included in the notes, if it meets certain criteria (usually placing on or above a specified rank on the leaderboard or being under a specified time).
Perhaps the Minecraft leaderboards would benefit from such a rule.
Good point. The Minecraft speedrunning community seems to be pretty primitive with its proof requirements, especially considering it's one of the most popular games ever.
but that also puts a barrier on people with poor internet or not so great computers.
It's essentially locking people who are too poor or are in bad situations out of the community and increasing the barrier for entry. I'm not saying its intentional or done on purpose, but it's something to consider when you make requirements like that too. I don't think someone would accept a laggy/jittery stream of a VOD. And just to cover this base, recording and livestreaming at the same time further increases the resources your PC may need.
Should add "cheater" category, treating it like Olympics but the contestants are athletes with enchantment drugs
I have to admit even though I hadn’t considered it, I’m glad you mentioned that it’s respectable that he fully came clean. That’s a very good point and no matter what, I feel like any gamer who hates cheating shouldn’t talk shit about him. Cheating happens - if it does, I guess this is a best case scenario thanks to him.
As others have pointed out, Trackmania had to do a competition patch to fix that issue to create and most importantly validate proper replays.
For Factorio the game is fully deterministic and categories where anything happens "off screen", without direct user input, requires a save and replay file so anything can be rechecked after the fact. But so far the game is luckily "obscure" enough to not have that many cheated runs so far.
Love to see you back, you absolute legend!
1 In 562 trillion is so insane that you have a greater likelihood of naming a random serial number of an American dollar, and then pulling that dollar out of your pocket then you would have the chances of what he did....
Nice FTL Music at the start of the video! I like that game a load and it brings back nostalgia!
Not even interested in this game much but the vast amount of knowledge players and moderators have and continue to learn from this game is insane and keeps me invigorated about the speedruns.
1-27-23
The fact they couldn't notice a lot of the changes makes me utterly shocked. How many runs currently out there could have been modified, but we haven't noticed them yet? This just opens up a Pandora's Box that will never be shut.
Great video, great topic. At parts it feels like Apollo Legend's contributions on the issue of cheating in speedrunning are evident. I think of him every time another video like this comes out.
I do wonder when it comes to created cheated runs if there are people test how well moderated a catagory is.
Someone who is willing to come up with a means of modding or hacking a game to make thing seem it was all RNG, get something like top 10 or top 5 or even WR, submit it and see if it gets denied then if it doesn't they bring it to the attention of the community of that certain speedrun and for them to improve how things are done to counter such a possible mod or hack.
Keep making these videos and being a truly absolute legend.
At least he's a good sport and explaining his tactics so we can learn new ways to track others cheating
He is a bad sport in every conceivable way. He was caught, and any kind of defense was hopeless anymore. I get that it looks better than denying this for eternity, and helps honest runners a bit exposing other methods (what also conveniently makes him look better), but the robbed fame/money were robbed forever. Also these guys usually retain most of their followers even (especially when they seem to come out clean, that we don't know), so at the end it is usually worth it.
I know you love covering hidden cheaters but i’d love to see you cover a REALLY BAD minecraft cheater, badabun’s mario speedrun was an amazing video from you and as much as it’s interesting to to hear stories about well respected people being cheaters it’s also nice for us all to point and laugh at a really bad faker
Agreed, I think that's how I found the channel. Bad cheats are great.
There are probably many speedrunners that cheat but they cheat in a way that its completely undetectable.
Love that more people are using resurrection as a backing sound. such a good soundtrack.
Ah yes perfect timing to listen to Karl narration while eating dinner
Cheaters never prosper... And they never learn
There is also the problem that you're not gonna check every run until things become suspicious enough, from a bunch of other runs. Greed is the downfall of these cheaters most of the time.
I really like how we live so close together, all the time I watch people who life halfway across the world but no you, it makes me feel closer to the videos you make because you are looking at something as an Australian
Look at that list of patrons you absolute legend! Seriously though you deserve it man. Your videos are very well done and EXTREMELY well researched.
Idea for an anti-splice-cheat system: a public API that uses credentials of the speedrunner and a private key to generate a string. Hash has to be shown in an overlay, refreshed every 5 seconds. Access to API is logged with userid, a timestamp and generated string. The trail of acces logs would make splicing very hard.
Just edit the hash overlay on the top of the spliced frames and when it refreshes, just change the overlay again, plus, rip speedrunners with bad internet
a day off, its friday, dead space remake is releasing shortly and a vid from Carl... this day is an absolute legend :)
Goldeneye on N64 online is also out.
6:18 when the splice happens you can also notice some lighting changes, to me easily visible on the netherrack at the top of the screen. I noticed this right before you even pointed out the splice.
I had no idea that there is speedrunning in Minecraft. I had no idea it is/became more than an open-world sandbox-style game. Interesting
Anything that you have luck involved in a recorded speedrun, you can definitely cheat your way through it. You just need to set the drop rates and calculate the n-nomial distribution of the independent variables, and perhaps get the best combination of the top 32% probability (2-sigma rule) that gives the best possible time to make it believable.
And if you're extra smart you tune down the rates ever so slightly for some runs, keep it unchanged for some others, and never use one of those configurations two runs in a row, that way your good luck just looks like luck, as does your ill fortuned and "normal" runs
@@thychozwart2451 this is particularly why I can't care about rng heavy speedruns. I like skill. Not people getting lucky
@@bbbbbbb51 playing around Minecraft’s rng is a huge skill in itself. While yes being number 1 doesn’t mean you are the best due to rng but if you are consistently hitting sub 10 pace that’s an indicator you are one of the best and that’s not just luck
Nah, it only speaks that you grind more hours at the game than others, which at some point does reflect dedication or experience, but not that directly
@@bbbbbbb51 Imo it could have some value in that the runners have to adapt to unexpected situations. But basically this, no idea why minecraft speedrunning got so big suddenly.
I'm surprised that Minecraft records are still accepted if done off-stream. I'd expect WRs to be dismissed if not streamed. The special client seems like a good idea. It'd probably be much easier if MC had a checksum, but I don't know if there's clever ways around that style of detection.
@@polygontower Paradox use what they call Checksums (don't know if they're different than error checksums) to detect modding in their games like Crusader Kings. Mods are allowed (I heavily use mods with a lot of easy to mod games), but for example, achievements are disabled and connecting to a differently modded server is blocked. But cosmetic mods (basically texture packs), don't change the checksum and thus can be used in multiplayer and with achievements. It is only modified if game code is changed.
Well good news. WRs *are* dismissed or straight up presumed to be cheated and thus discounted if not streamed.... unless you're already popular or friends with the mods lol
11:14 Coding this client would involve doing multiple things:
1) Not trusting any of the usual sources of randomness (i.e. the OS) and instead getting it from somewhere else (the network maybe)
2) Either preventing memory readouts or just never generating any random number on the client side
3) Preventing the use of all sorts of cheats, ranging from CheatEngine to injection cheats operating at ring 0
4) Making sure that it isn't possible for the user to make the client connect to a fake server (would require certificate pinning)
And since tall of this (except for 4) has thus far never been achieved by any anti cheat solution, I highly doubt that it will work this time.
Your voice is my accidental ASMR favourite in the subcategory “nerds nerding about nerding”. 😂
Programmer of 10 years here. So, about this client that's supposed to prevent cheating: technically, it's 100% physically impossible. Same reason why reliable anti-piracy measures are impossible. In the end of the day, so long as we're talking about a piece of software whose code is being shipped to you and installed on YOUR computer, you have 100% control over it, period.
Doesn't matter if it's through the purchase of a CD, or using an online installer which downloads the software for you. The code is now physically in your possession, and no matter how much it might have been obfuscated, so long as it actually runs on YOUR system, it can be analyzed, backwards-engineered, and modified to do whatever the heck you want. It could even contain routines that constantly check whether its own code has been modified, whether the user inputs are genuine, etc., and live-report to an online server whether everything is OK. Still doesn't matter! Because you can just modify it to *not* do those checks and still send the server the OK sign.
The *only* way to 100% reliably prevent cheating is to have the code NOT be running on the potential cheater's computer. This is why companies like Adobe whose products are pirated a lot like to push "cloud" stuff. In their ideal world, their programs would never get to run on your machine. The software would run on their servers, and you'd merely interact with it (send it the user inputs, get back the graphical results) so can they make sure that people can't use it without being licensed to do so. (As far as I understand --I'm not an Adobe user-- they haven't actually gone that far yet, and even the so-called "Creative Cloud" actually runs on the user's machine. Probably because the server capacity they'd need would be utterly insane. But that's the world they dream of.)
So, if you want a reliably cheat-proof speedrun, you have basically two options:
1. Live events, where the hardware and software are provided by the event organizers.
2. A cloud gaming platform (like Google Stadia or GeForce Now -- yes I know Stadia is dead) which can record gameplay, and then lets you download the recording along with some token of proof from the platform operator (such as a digital signature, as in cryptography) that proves the recording to be authentic. (This way they don't have to store it.) Note I'm not a fan of cloud anything personally, in fact I hate cloud stuff and want to own the code that I run (big fan of the Free Software movement) but technically this is the only way to prove authenticity of gameplay recordings.
Of course I'm entirely skipping over the possibility of social engineering, bribing, etc. that could still allow you to cheat in those instances. I'm just talking from a technical / software point of view.
even with 1 and 2, there's ways around it. Because of human nature. Someone will find an "in" with one of the team members. Either they will get an "in" through sex, or through money, but you can guarantee somehow it will happen.
The easiest mod would be input recording, from the moment the game is started until it is closed, and since Minecraft is deterministic, you could get perfect replication. If there are deviations, it'll be easy to detect
That won't work. Drops which are random can't be checked. For example, if you kill a blaze and it drops a blaze rods and you only recorded the inputs, sometimes the inputs will match and sometimes it won't. In addition, you can't detect manipulations from just recording inputs; if I mine gravel, it will record "left click(5 seconds) (gravel ----> flint)". This doesn't tell us anything about whether the drops have been manipulatted
Yeah, nothing about RNG is deterministic. The player movement might be, idk, but that's rarely the topic of cheated runs anyway (never heard of any cases actually)
Are you sure Minecraft is deterministic? Don’t mind the other commenters with no RNG knowledge saying that it’s random because duh it’s RNG… that’s not how it works. But I think Minecraft is complex enough that an input recording of a run might not be deterministic like it is in most games with RNG.
@@polygontower It would work, because of how RNG works on computers.
So if someone records inputs, and in their playthrough they get a drop, but in verifying it shows no drop, then you know it has been manipulated.
@@debesys6306 Random, yes, but it calls an RNG function, which is deterministic, and in the same settings and play, if the exact same inputs are done at the exact same time, will be the same.
Just because it is random (which computers can't really do) doesn't mean it is random. It is pseudorandom.
@Karl Jobst regarding what you said at 1:25, it's actually quite simple to make sure no changes to the game files have been made. Someone just needs to make a tool that'll inject the Minecraft.exe and that tool checks whether any of the game files have been changed (simple hash comparison between actual, unaltered game and the instance of that game being run). This tool would essentially be a Minecraft mod that would show an indicator in the in-game HUD, along f.e. some other stuff, to make sure it's not just the cheater trying to put it as an overlay to his recording.
Jusr modify the tool
This brings up something i will always think, that cheaters will always be the best at catching other cheaters, and be the best moderators
I'm not sure if it's just my bias or you really *can* tell it's gonna be a banger Karl video when Resurrections kicks in
Maybe the speedrun moderators should call upon previous cheaters and/or people who are familiar with modding the game to actively look for new ways of cheating and/or to test new moderators.
I'm part of a Civilization III server. Because of my knowledge of the game's editor, the owner asked me to host a game where I was told to cheat as much as possible but without being too obvious to see if they would notice. I was able to fly under the radar for almost the entire run, but an outsider who had been asked to fill in for a player for a couple days noticed that two resources appeared next to each other that normally never would. He raised a question, but a lack of response from myself or the owner quashed any further questioning; that said, he did reach out to the server's most knowledgeable person about it and confirmed it was not possible, and later was vindicated when I finally "confessed" that the game had been tampered with.
thats pretty crazy. But if someone caught it out why would you not respond??
@@rosabellewakefield5444 Good question! It was also part of the test; we intentionally gave vague and nonexistent answers and he didn't press the issue much, and no one else began openly asking questions to the moderation team. We learned that our group is by nature trusting, but maybe also a little afraid to speak up if they think something is fishy.
@PelemusMcSoy That makes sense, so essentially they raised a 'this is odd' but never went for the mod team to actually call foul play
What we need is a live competition where all speedrunner get the same seed at the same time. I would watch that.