Dutch "KJV-Onlyism" and Bible Translation
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- Опубліковано 20 бер 2024
- With special guest Reinier de Blois.
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Wow, what a small world! I met Renier de Blois in Nigeria in the late 1980s when i believe he was working on the Izzi translation. While he and I may not agree in some things concerning Bible translation, I've always respected him as a reasonable and understanding voice when it comes to the subject. What a blessing when we can sit down and discuss these things without extremism and/or ad hominem attacks about those who think differently than us.
Amen, Bill! I really appreciate this comment!
It’s so crazy to me that this issue is so huge in certain denominations. I’m Apostolic, and we preach out of whatever translation gets the point across the best! Most of the time it’s KJV but no issue with using others if they convey the English language better. I can’t imagine being in a church where one of the main issues was which English translation we read. My word.
That was really good! It's great to hear of the same issues affecting other cultures and the responses are nearly identical to the responses I have personally experienced. Good stuff!
✔
You need to do an interview like this with Afrikaans bible translators.
@@stefanlabuschagne1 not a problem.
Prof JA Naudé will be a good person to interview.
My favorite video you have made yet! Partly because I am a missionary to a Dutch speaking country and am navigating the reality of Statenvertaling Onlyism, but also because Mr. de Blois expressed himself so well. Also you set the stage with some excellent questions.
Thank you for taking the time to make these videos!
Our pleasure!
So glad to hear how your guest has thought through the implications of AI and Bible translation. Absolutely fascinating!
Even me being dutch didnt realize this was a thing to this extend. We do have HSV for reformed people, willibrord for catholics and nbv21 for everyone, which is probably the best dutch translation so far. I also own one in Fries!
i have the 1978 Frisian Bible
The HSV was never accepted in reformed churches. The churches that use it would almost always not call themselves reformed at all. When it came out a pastor of the largest reformed denomination (GG) called it a work of the devil. The NBV that came before the NBV ‘21 was completely ripped to shreds many years ago in the famous book “Niet zo, maar zo”. The NBV ‘21 is nothing more than universalist failed translation which is almost never cited in theological works. I would point out to the fine articles of dr. Bremmer in Standvastig last year if you want to know more. The GBS organization mentioned in the video is doing a fine job giving the tools to students to use the SV without treating them as stupid. There is no need for the man in the video to “explain” bible verses with a revision that is worse than the original. Anyone can read the SV with a little effort. In the past when the SV was the translation we were called the Jerusalem of the west and now we are one of the most secular countries in the world so the HSV was not very helpful was it?
@@henkdevries1507 from what i read of any of them so far i do like SV and HSV the best for being more powerful translations. The nbv and nbv21 didnt stir me as much. So far i do love the KJV alot. Its a bit difficult so far but it just oozes the awe and love for the texts that the translators must have felt while working on the sacred texts. I never was moved to tears by a dutch translation but KJV's Luke had me. I think dutch translations are usually bad because they read as joyful as plain boiled potatoes. Ive had fun with translating dutch into spicy dutch which can be done. Even translating a norse book translated boringly into dutch into proper english because fun. I think nbv focussed overly much on accuracy to such degrees it became stale. How did people manage it by making the word of God stale? I can only assume this is why people hold to the SV because its spicy, even if its archaic. Same with the KJV. Havent dabbed into NKJV yet, mostly reading ESV now. I do like HSV for its still has some power. Nbv choices like H E E R just kinda irk me. Even just HEER would be more striking. I guess the dutch word for what irks me is that nbv especially comes off as "gezapig"
@@fallyn2920 Goed om hier Nederlanders te zien! Nice testimony about reading Luke in the KJV. On page 22 of “De Vertaalmethode toegelicht” the NBV ‘21 translators speak about their approach being about functionality so it was not meant as especially literal or thought for thought. My dislike for the NBV ‘21 is caused by the fact that misleads readers. For instance in Rom 4:3 where it ridiculously has “vertrouwde” and not “geloofde” like in SV. Someone who only uses the NBV is in real danger concerning their salvation because of these deliberate errors. There are numerous similar examples as documented in Standvastig. I would recommend the NBG ‘51 if you want to read a good translation in beautiful Dutch. This translation was mostly on the initiative of GKV denomination when it was stil reformed. It now uses the NBV and we all know what has happened to it. It still pains me I had to leave because of their new relativistic approach to the Bible. Also I would recommend the NKJV because it has the best set of notes of all modern translations. Veel zegen gewenst!
@@fallyn2920
What an interesting perspective! I agree that it is the "spiciness" or the "poetry" that these older translations bring that keeps people perennially interested in them. I think you'd really enjoy the NKJV -- it tries its best to keep the spiciness of the KJV while making the meaning clearer to contemporary audiences.
At 26:00 in, Reiner comments on how learning the core structure of a language can be, in his words, enlightening. I would 100% agree! For my final Hebrew class in my MDiv, instead of focusing on declensions and rote memory, my teacher (Dr. Schumate from IBCS) took us through a Hebrew grammar book and taught us the way sentences are put together in Hebrew, and what the various uses of different grammatical components were - semantics. It was, by far, the most valuable language class I've ever had.
Awesome! Love Dr. Shumate!
In my experience, most "onlyists" exhibit a spirit of gnosticism. They often have cultish tendencies. The only true and perfect Word is Jesus. Yes, an accurate translation is an important and essential, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are alive and working in the world. It is a living word and to be an onlyist shows a lack of faith.
"spirit of gnosticism", assuming all the obvious Christian beliefs are embraced, what would that look like?
Thank you for this video, I especially liked the discussion about AI. I actually really liked the idea that was presented. It is refreshing seeing Christians considering how to use AI in a positive way when there is so much default negativity in many Christian circles.
If we are (rightly) cautious about using AI to fully translate the Bible, I could see AI instead translating other important works from our Apostolic Fathers. Similar to what Modern Puritan has done using computer algorithms to translation Puritan and Reformation writings.
Yeah its a thing with Spanish versions as well. But mostly lead by white american KJV onlyists in regards to the 1602 and 1865 Spanish translations vs the 1960. I prefer the 1865 Pratt Spanish revision mainly because it was he first Spanish Bible I owned and the one I began memorizing scripture out of, and still memorize scripture out of. The same can be said with the KJV, of which the Bible itself is a bilingual version bought from a KJV only fundamental church of all places. But again those are my personal preferences and not "Law". I also have a ESV/1960 RV bilingual bible that I use for church, and like comparing the Spanish texts as well to give me a better grasp on the language, how different words are used in the same contexts, etc... as my main purpose for buying a bilingual Bible was to learn Spanish through a means that was already a part of my life daily... Bible studying/reading!
I personally am looking into switching to the lbla. But I'll look into the ones you mentioned as well!
Look, we all know that Paul the apostle quoted from the KJV.🤪 Of course there’s the Douay Rheims for Catholics. I grew up with the KJV so it’s not too difficult for me to read, but I understand that it’s becoming harder for a lot of people to read. It’s interesting about the Dutch version.
According to James White's "The King James Only Controversy" there is a very small group of people who actually Believe the Hebrew is actually just English and that Abraham actually READ the 1611 KJV. Including the entire NT!!
I enjoyed this very much and learned a lot again. Thank you Mark. Where and how can I get the linguistic course of Reinier de Blois?
You are very welcome. I’m afraid, however, that I don’t know where to point you for a course.
I’m curious if there are any “onlyists” in the Portuguese speaking world. The Portuguese Almeida came out so late (1819 for a full Bible in one volume) and since then, there have been many other revisions since. Portuguese also had a spelling reform.
Though it is popular (60% of Brazilian Evangelicals use a version of the Almeida) few if any use the 1819.
Interesting! Maybe those whose native tongue is Portuguese are actually far better off in this regard than those whose languages had fully translated Bibles much earlier -- the 1800s is still close enough that we can understand the realistic limitations of those living in the 1800s and archaic language doesn't sound "poetic" as much as it just sounds "old-fashioned".
Hopefully Brazilians (and others who primarily use Portuguese Bibles) will continue to update their Bible translations as time passes, if only because hopefully some of them will have become familiar with the contention Bible translations have created within other languages and they'll want to do their best to avoid that by making updates normal and accepted.
Which Bibles were primarily used before the Portuguese translation was completely finished and published in the 1800s?
Thank you for this video.
Part of my interest in the topics covered by this video is triggered by my being of Dutch heritage. I am saddened that my knowledge of the Dutch language isn't stronger. I can manage a very small number of pleasantries, but that's about it.
@markwardonwords Thank you for this interview. I agree about prioritising semantics, pragmatics, lexis, and discourse analysis and deprioritising grammar-translation. What is needed for immersion is reading fluency of the scriptural texts.
Thank you, Brothers 🌹⭐🌹⭐
Lest there should be a caricature…… There *are* Dutch Christians who love the Statenvertaling but who recognise the need for some revision - but decidedly not in the direction of paraphrastic versions! The translators of the Statenvertaling were few, and were specifically set apart, and released from other labours, to make the translation. They had the benefit of other translations, including the AV/KJV, before them; and, arguably, they produced the best Reformation translation.
Mark, your question regarding the Lord’s purpose in what I’ll call “holy ambiguity”, is relevant to so many biblical texts. Consider how easily the proper subjects of baptism or the true nature of the bread and wine at Communion could have been clarified. My consolation with translation issues is knowing, despite the manifold controversies, God has used thousands of translations to bring his people to himself. Thank you for your work providing those tools to serve the Kingdom.
Right. I want to recognize ambiguity where it is and not claim it where it isn’t.
somebody help me please....at time stamp 27:04 what is the word he mentions and discusses its translation? With my diminished hearing and his accent it just sounds like tesla or tesa (which is a manufacturer of automotive adhesive tape) and CC, is as usual, worthless when this happens.
It’s hesed.
Thank you Caleb. @@CalebRichardson
“Chesedh”
@@19king14 חֶ֫סֶד
😉
I had the same question
When you covered the variations between the KJV and the Statenvertaling a while back I looked into both the SV and HSV, and found a channel on UA-cam dedicated to the defense of the SV as the inspired text, even calling the KJV/AV "Satanic" for its various readings!
One example they gave was the use of Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12, whereas the SV has morgenster ("morning star"). Now, even though the AV has a footnote on this verse saying "or day star", this person made the claim that because morgenster is also used of Jesus in Revelation 22:16, that the KJV/AV is trying to call Jesus Satan!
Now, there is much debate over the Isaiah passage and what it means, however the term Lucifer only came to be a name for Satan/the Devil from the KJV usage of the term in Isaiah (transliterated from the Latin Vulgate meaning "bright light" or "day star") and people exegeting the passage to see it as referring to Satan. It is wild what conclusions people can come to based on their own biases and a lack of historical understanding of texts and their interpretation.
As always, thank you for this content! I'd love to see more videos on other various Textus Receptus that are not merely Scrivener and the KJV!
Could Bibles have footnotes? I have a NKJV that still have footnotes. I don't look at them a lot, except Majority Text variant some.
I believe the original 1611 King James had footnotes
@@randywheeler3914 That it did, and outside of Cambridge and Oxford, very few publishers maintain them in their own editions anymore.
@@fnjesusfreakI find that to be true with what the translators wrote to the readers in the King James A lot of them don't put it in there anymore when they print them
@@randywheeler3914 Yeah, I've found Cambridge and Schuyler do it frequently and Holman's KJV Study Bible has it but otherwise it's rare.
The NKJV would be the QEV Queen Elizabeth (II) Version. Anything now is the KCV King Charles Version. James has been dead for hundreds of years.
What an insightful and informative post. Thanks for sharing!
"Yea, hath God said..." I have no qualms whatsoever in saying to anyone who believes the version itself and exclusively is inspired, "You're exactly right: If the King James Bible was good enough for Jesus, then it is good enough for me!" I admire that you have far more patience than I do, Mark.
My biggest beef is that, if we are going to sacrifice the understanding of the ordinary speakers of the language for the sake of the best possible version, then that is the original, isn't it?!! Don't learn the KJ English. Learn Hebrew and Greek. And Aramaic. Read the Bible in those versions. But let us laymen have a laymen's language.
"Yea, hath God said" is exactly why I read a modern translation that is written in my vernacular so I don't struggle as hard to understand the message God wants us to have
Is that what you have done? If you really did, which I do not believe, then you would clearly know the the KJV is truely God's unchangable words.
@@tomgarrison5313can you prove that using only the Bible
@@randywheeler3914 can you disprove it using the bible?. I'm not being confrontational, I am interested in what you have to say
One would think that would be the logical conclusion.
Excellent video
You should try to get Dave Brunn and interview him about his book on translation
That's the plan!
You've mentioned several times recently that linguistics courses might have more value than Biblical language training in some areas. I have often thought this to be true. An understanding of how language actually works would go a long way to enabling pastors to meet OLSHA standards. 🙂😀
Ha! You’ve got quite the memory! I still believe in the mission of OLSHA!
@@markwardonwords I tell everyone about OLSHA -- I love that! 🙂
Too much emphasis on linguistics, absent good theological training, has been disastrous in the field of bible translation; both are needed. However, when looking at the field of linguistics, one must also consider the philosophy of language that underlies the theory of linguistics that is being used. Some linguistic theories are very problematic.
@@miketisdell5138 That's absolutely true, and I agree with you. I don't think that linguistics is more important than Biblical training. I think it may help those with solid Biblical training not make language related mistakes that frequently happen when they think they have had sufficient Biblical language training. Here's where linguistics would multiply Greek or Hebrew instruction, and even, as Dr Ward is stating, where linguistics can help avoid exegetical problems even where the individual has not had good Greek or Hebrew training. :-)
@@miketisdell5138 This is a good word, Mike. I fully agree. I'm looking at my conservative world when I say all this.
I have a question. Which Protestant denominations consider themselves KJV only, or is it more specific?
The main KJV only groups are the IFB, Independent Fundamental Baptists. I believe there are a few different denominations under that label, but they're all KJV only
@@tiberiusmagnificuscaeser4929 This is true. I would add that there are charismatic/pentecostal groups that also hold to this position as well.
There are Calvinists and Lutherans who are not KJV-Only, but call themselves KJV-preferred, and will use almost exclusively the KJV or (more likely) the NKJV. They are at least a bit more reasonable about the matter.
Plenty of folks in the SBC are still KJV but they’re in the minority.
@@tiberiusmagnificuscaeser4929 Not all IFB are KJV/KJB only. (I have lived in several states, coast to coast, and have visited quite a few churches.)
@@redaf28I would love to find and ifb church that is not KJV only
Delighted to hear "mynhear" DeBlois' presentation. I would like to point out that the war was still going on when the synod that he referred to, the international synod at Dordrecht, met however there may have been a pause in the fighting. The KJV inspired the NL to launch their own Bible version, King James had some of his men present at Dord't to advise and keep an eye on this new translation, the Statenvertaling, which i think is superior to the KJV because of how it handled Isaiah 14:12. The war ended with the 1st Treaty of Munster in early 1648. Mark, I've heard the KJV-Only Gang bring up this whole O.T. translated into Greek in that time period story. For some reason they feel threatened by the Septuagint. The statement is preposterous, historically inaccurate, and impossible to do - how can you translate the whole O.T. when Chronicles had not been written yet? No, Pharaoh Ptolemy Philadelphus mandated that the "laws of the Jews", i.e., the 5 books of Moses, be translated into Greek (and i'll bet that's when they got their Greek names). This project was re-opened later and more books were added, it was an on-again, off-again process running for several years. Lastly, i'd like to give some info on the NRC/De Gereformeerde Gemeenten (GG) (Reformed Congregations/ Communities). They are the heirs of Jean de Labadie, whom American historian Adrian Leiby dubbed as the 2nd most important Frenchman to convert to Protestantism after John Calvin. He had been searching but not finding when he read Calvin's Institutes and was converted. Forced to flee France he went to Middelburg (Zeeland's capital) where he pastored a French Huguenot exile church. De Labadie was stricter than most Reformed clerics and felt that the Reformation had not gone far enough. Leiby says that his disciples pastored several Reformed churches in the former New Netherlands and that because so, those churches were doctrinally strong and pro-First Great Awakening.
Also, language education needs to be improved. Learning Greek (or any language) through grammar study alone is like learning to ride a bike by studying Bicycle riding theory, but never getting on the bike. If you want to learn to read greek, you need to read greek. Reading material for language learners goes a long way, and we are in sore lack of it.
some ministers and pastors mean, the right bible is their own ideology.
Another fine video (with very few ads - I might add :) )! Curious with the Hebrew word “Chesedh.” 27:27 I deeply appreciate the New World Translation which translates it as “Loyal love.”
I like how the NWT translates Proverbs 9:4.. “Whoever is inexperienced, (not bad or simple) let him come in here.” One very successful method to broaden people’s use of ‘other translations’... Jehovah’s Witnesses speak personally to millions people every month and use various translations. Many that we speak with do move on to other/multiple translations, including the NWT (and others) where as such individuals may have refused to use it and mainly prefer KJV. It’s the personal one-to-one discussions, face-to-face that are most effective.
I wonder what Reinier de Blois might say about the Dutch translation of the NWT (one of its over 210 languages including swahili and a web-site with the most languages on the internet - 1089 languages).
Wow 46 second notification.
Wow
Hey Mark, not every video like you say, but here it is for this one. Is het ook, dat God gezegd haft?
Ik hab ook een bonus, En ik bid u, broeders, neemt acht op degenen, die tweedracht en ergenissen aanrichten tegen de leer, die gij van ons geleert hebt; en wijkt af van dezelve. Want dezulken dienen onzen Heere Jezus Christus niet, maar hun buik; en verleiden door schoonspreken en prijzen de harten der eenvoudigen.
De genade van den Heere Jezus Christus, en de liefde van God, en de gemeenschap des Heiligen Geestses, zij mit u allen. Amen.
"Dutch" KJV-Onlyism? Wow... I never gave that much though to the idea that "translation exclusivity" would have occurred elsewhere.
Goofy question for you, Mark: have you looked at the Latin Vulgate in lieu of the "textual wars" going on for any reference, or is that not really a part of the conversation going on? I only ask because I know that Jerome's version was fairly influential for quite some time in the Western Church, and wondered if it ever came into play as a source, primary or secondary, in the discussion.
Yes! ua-cam.com/video/6VaiYUdP5U4/v-deo.html
Mr. Ward could you tell why a post by me was removed just now?
Did it include a link? UA-cam eliminates a lot (most?) of those.
@@markwardonwords Certainly not.
@@henkdevries1507 There are a few other possibilities:
1. It was very, very long. This is especially a problem if you tried to edit it after posting it. UA-cam will often flag a comment when that happens.
2. You used a word (such as a slur) that UA-cam automatically detected and determined to be flag-worthy.
3. Another user read your comment, determined it to be in violation of UA-cam's rules, and flagged it. It wasn't Mark, and it wasn't me, so there's no way of knowing who it was if this is the case.
Mike would you make a video on the Simplified King James Version? It is wayyy better than the NKJV and the MEV! I got one on order but this version needs to be put in the spotlight, the people who made it knew what they were doing!
It's Mark. ;)
And I really do need to do this… Someday I'll get to it!
Mark, your guest promoted and elucidated the Ruckmanite position:
36:34 - "I use “incarnation” in the sense that Bible translation shouldn’t be a clone of the original. I believe that the Lord working through faithful Christians, well-trained people working in that language, will give them the right words, so that, that translation will become the new instance of the word of God for that particular community."
This is exactly what Dr. Ruckman taught. He just named a certain translation that fit the description. His position was that the King James translation is "not a clone of the original," but rather "a new instance of the word of God" for the English speaking community, brought about through "the work of faithful, well-trained people working" in the English language. When Doc taught it, you derided it as "double inspiration" and have put out videos calling it heresy. But you did not challenge your guest.
Can you speak to this discrepancy?
I am going to give you an idea based on the fact that you are not going to get people to give up the KJV. You understand that there are problematic terms in this translation so write a dictionary that correctly defines these words for the ones that insist on using just the KJV only. You then define all the words you view as archaic which I do not. I personally do not view any word/term as archaic. I view these words as something to learn about because these words represent people that lived before me and viewed themselves differently due to the lack of knowledge.
I am planning two projects that are akin to this. One is almost done; the other may take a good while to come to fruition.
So what would you consider an archaic word or an archaic use of a word
@@randywheeler3914 I do not view words based on when it was used in the past or present, so words to me are like tools words are used to describe what we see, touch, taste, and hear. I also use terms to express ideas I have and thoughts I think. For instance the Bible is about eye-witness testimony by people claiming the reality that they saw as true. And, I want to see a translation that can accurately display those propositions based on the understanding that is expressed by those eye-witnesses. These people are our forefathers pointing to a God that they called their father and a son called the Son of God. So, to me a translation that does not express this perspective has to be re-written in words and terms that best expresses those views. It is not my words being translated but someone else's who lived a life with events that they wrote down what they perceived as an eye-witness account. Another reason why I do not view any word as archaic is when it was written down and used consistently in the past those who used it did not view those terms in that fashion. It would not surprise me in the least if people in the past viewed words from older sources as potentially archaic to them as people do today.
Friend, have you read Mark Ward’s book, or watched the seven chapters he posted to this channel, nearly his earliest videos? His theme and the bulk of his work has been to help our KJV-only brothers and sisters understand their Bible, not realizing words today have different meaning due to language change. They have no reason to look up false friends in a dictionary, words they “know” today.
@@markwardonwords Thanks for sharing this information and also people view Bibles sometimes I think like comfort food not just as a hammer or a wrench. Just like you have somethings that you take comfort in due to memories you have that is a part of way people will hold to translations that the words are not viewed the same way that people in the past viewed them.
This is not even a thing with the internet & Bible apps. It’s a pointless debate