Could the Separatist Droid Army Have Won (Without Palpatine)
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2018
- What if Chancellor Palpatine was removed from the equation. Could the Separatist Droid Army have defeated the Clone Grand Army of the Republic? Here is what we think.
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The funny thing is the movies try to paint the separatist as the bad guys but the reality is they were the good guys fighting for their freedom the whole time. And likely are what largely laid the foundation for the rebellion.
This. Furthermore, the Separatist Holdouts (i.e. the last confederate outposts after the end of the war) were among the founders of the rebellion and the rebels themselves used much of their equipment (like many Munificent-class star destroyers).
You probably never seen The Clone Wars series. Or are simply trolling.
Seperatists were power hungry. Look at the Trade Federation, Corporate Alliance, Baking clan etc. Look at how they behaved and their background. No freedom there.
They wanted to force their will on others. Like they tried before with Naboo. They also tried to execute 2 investigating Jedi and a senator very brutally (to be eaten by animals) and without a fair trial.
Also executed CIS people that did not agreed with them, invaded neutral worlds (where they even tested weapons on citizens). The lives of sentient being were of no value to the Separatists.
There might have been a few willing people among the CIS but they were used as the majority and leadership were evil. Like the Sith Dooku and the psychopath droid Grievous.
There is a lot wrong with the Republic and the Jedi. But the CIS is definitely as evil as the Empire.
You sound like a propaganda pusher for Palpatine. The whole video was about how he controlled the separatist action. Palpatine was the one who order they kill the two Jedi, and in all likely hood he's the one that told them to blockade the planet in the first place.
I have watched the Clone Wars series and they do touch on several groups that join the Seperatist because they see how the Republic is turning into a warmongering Dictatorship and they want out. The leaders in the Separatist are mostly shown as evil because it is shown from the Republic side with only the most underhanded deeds, after all the whole series has every episode starting like some old time news clip promoting propaganda for the side it's cheering for. The other issue is Palpatine positioned the people into power that he could control and like in the first example most likely had them doing things to grab power with little to no regard for the consequences.
Session 3 Episode 10 Has Amidala meet with a Separatist Senator who is willing to talk about peace and even calls a vote for it in the Separatist Senate to which you can hear the comment about how corporations don't rule them like they do the Republic. The vote passes so that peace talks can begin, but of course Palpatine and his puppets work to foster ill will and keep the war going, including assassinations of members on both sides who are call for peace.
After Palpatine wins the war and all the puppet leaders are dealt with it leaves the door open for real leaders who actually want to fight for the people rather than give lip service to the idea to come in and take over. Thus forming the Rebellion.
The Separatist Senate was made up of good people who had genuine grievances, but the Alliance itself was run by Dooku, Grevious and the corrupt business interests of the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union etc. Members of the Separatist Senate who tried to find a peaceful solution to the war were murdered and their deaths pinned on the Republic. They were pawns.
The Rebellion was founded by disaffected Senators of the Republic who didn't like the amount of power Palpatine had attained nor his massacre of the Jedi Order; at least one of it's founding members was Bail Organa who was very likely informed by Yoda and Kenobi that Palpatine was actually a Sith Lord this whole time. It is unclear how many former Separatist worlds joined the Rebel Alliance but there were likely just as many Republic ones and the Separatist leadership itself were killed by Vader.
I don't think it's the case that the Republic is supposed to be cast as the good guys and the CIS as the bad guys, its confusing because most of the CIS officials we see in the movies are the masterminds manipulating the cause for their own benefit. I think it's clear from the movies that the republic is at least a bad faction, the parallels are clearly drawn between the Republic and the German Weimar Republic to Nazi germany transition, straight into a chancellor being granted emergency powers in the face of a crisis. Lucas made the Republic LITERALLY Nazis, so I highly doubt he intended them to be the "good guys".
Republic: takes 9 years to make soldiers.
African warlords: three, take it or leave it.
i dont get it
@@lisatrappedmeinygsbasement848 african warlords use child soldiers
@@lisatrappedmeinygsbasement848 you are probably too young
But this is underrated
Jedi!! Requesting backup
224 stand your ground we will send backup
All of this makes me wish they would publish a novel about the Clone Wars from CIS point of of view.
it would be a lot of binary code probably
I agree what was it like in cis space and what was civilian life like not senators actual civilians thanks for this valid point.
Jacob Clark 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
S Stirbis I think life would have carried on much the same as it had before. Yes they had better representation and probably had a nominal change in their taxation, but pretty soon after the CIS was formed it became engaged in a full-scale war. You would see a lot more battledroids in a peacekeeper role like on Raxus, but likely engaging in more oppressive behavior on worlds recently captured or close to the frontline. Reforms were probably below winning independence on their priority list. So I would say its fair to assume life for the average CIS civilian would be not that much different than before, or have some sort of martial law implemented on their world(especially those with rebellious elements in the populace)
Jacob Clark I would buy that
Didn't General Kalani say something in Star Wars rebels like, "near the end of the war, separatist droids significantly outnumbered republic units. By my calculations our probability of being defeated was only 29.6%"
Ezra: These droids are so old, they're malfunctioning! If they weren't, we would've died!
Kalani: The boy is right. (Smugest implied smile ever)
Rex: >:(
remember that the cis only had this much success cus palpatine was playing both sides. without palpatine, the cis would not be as strong. kalani didnt know palptine was playing both
Btw everyone disagreeing with me you’re wrong, I am right. I am always right
Nib Nub Wouldn’t they be stronger without Palpatine?
@@kevray they should be. Grievous (in his role as Seperatist Supreme Commander) complained often about being held back or having his strategies overruled by Dooku (on orders of Palpatine) but he went along with it inspite of his complaints out of respect for Dooku. Had Grievous been able to implement the strategies he clearly knew would work, free of Palpatines efforts to hold him and his armies back or use them for political not military purposes, the Republic would've suffered loses at several critical points. Both sides could gain from the removal of Palpatine... but the CIS more so... after all Palpatine wanted the Republic to win, not the CIS, and manipulated them both with that in mind.
@@SkiddyGaming palpatine pretty much organised the whole thing
“It takes at least 13 years to make a soldier on earth.”
This has me weak.
If your five at least because 5+13=18
@@bjblazkowicz3014 bold of you to assume you need to be 18 to be a soldier
@@dapperfield595 12 year old Katrina Mumaw is the youngest accomplished pilot in the world. Not a military pilot, but still a feat.
200 000 soldiers for a galactic war doesnt seem right, 200 000 companies would make way more sense. They really should have explained the numbers better in movies or books.
As I recall one of the Kaminoans said 200,000 *units,* or something like that. Not 200,000 individual soldiers. How much a "unit" is is up to the imagination, but a division size would make the most sense.
Then again, when the separatist army had billions of battle droids, does it really matter in the long run? The GAR was hopelessly outnumbered.
scottski02 The CIS had 120 million droids
In The Clone Wars show, they were arguing over commissioning 5 million extra clones, which gives an idea of their size.
In the first Episodes of the Clone Wars the Republic had about 1 million clones
Narwhocalypse Which makes no sense to me. Either Sidious put in the order for the 5 million a decade ago without a down payment, the republic is unwilling to pay for the troops ordered, or the Republic thought the war would go on for the 9 more years required to grow the clones to maturity, which if they did, 5 million would be woefully lowballing it considering the Separatists could produce billions of droids in that time.
"No taxation without representation!" Didn't realize Starwars took a little from colonial history too. More the reason to love this series.
Vic Voss I am literally learning about colonial times in school right now
calvin_yt So am I 😂. I take a university course for it.
The rebellion is the same as the 1770s rebellion....
The outer rim DID have representation. Just that they where ignored. The Outer Rim for example supported the formation of a Standing Military to fight pirates and slavers. The Core Regions was “Nah we need this money for my Auridium Chandeliers!”
Arguably one of the biggest inspirations for the Clone Wars was the US Civil War. You had the Wealthy more populace core world's (the North) bossing around a poorer less populace outer rim(the South). A big reason the South seceded was because it feared the North was going to start riding rough shot over it, especially on the issue of Slavery.
Numbers were really the only advantage the CIS had, and yet that was really the only one they needed. The GAR had better individual soldiers and better commanders by far, but when your army starts to get outnumbered 100 to 1, you really have no hope of winning that battle. Besides that, the CIS had a superior navy to the Republic in regards to capital ships, and the Republic's starfighters compared to those of the CIS in much the same way their respective armies compared. Realistically, the CIS could have easily overwhelmed and defeated the Republic if it weren't for Palpatine's meddling.
Ryan Cauffman I dunno, the Venator Star Destroyers were supposedly pretty powerful. They were the precursor to the ISD, after all. Plus, the Republic had the Mandator battlecruisers in Legends - the precursor to the Executor SSD who's only difference was the general structure, shield strength, and maybe firepower. A Mandator/Mandator II could easily destroy a Lucrehulk, I'm certain. Not to mention, in Legends, the Victory-class Star Destroyer was put into considerable numbers towards the end of the war.
Nobody expects the Inquisition! Except they didn't have those in the beginning. The Victory class Star Destoryers that the Republic had were at the latter half of the war. After Geonosis the CIS could have swarmed the core worlds easily.
No i dont think so still the fighters were better and even though 100 to1 republic still could win cus they are organics so they have brains (well arc troopers) so they can lead the brainless droids into a trap oh yeah remeber commander gregor holding of all those droids?
Republic Supporter no i dont think so
You forget that Palpatine withheld a massive Republic fleet of new ships until the end of the war and the battle of Coroscant, which easily outgunned and outnumbered the Separatist fleet. If these had been deployed during the war the Republic would have dominated in the naval combat department.
Just make 1000 droidekas and roll them against any army and victory is assured! Those things seemed OP even Jedi ran when they faced them.
Typhoo Lannister as long that enemy doesn't use artillery, mines, obstacles, snipers, etc. Shields could not be on all the time...
Because every battle unit has a weakness of some kind; Droidekas can only roll along on smooth, nearly level terrain. The various Walkers used by the Republic and the Wookie Army have a high degree of mobility, and are much faster.
You should see how much thought Sun-Tsu devoted to maneuvering in The Art of War.
This is why they should've been used tacticly, and should've been dropped in or hurled into the enemy lines. And even if they cause little damage, 2-3 waves, and you can send in heavy robotics, followed by endless waves of roger rogers.
It's too expensive
Droidekas vs. stairs
who needs man power when you have UNLIMITED DROID POWER!?
To upgrade them
*WHEEZE*
ULIMITED POWER
no no no its POOOOOOWWWWWEEEEEEEERRRRRR
@@laserlights9684 YOUR SCREAMS ARE JOYFUL TO MY AUDIO RECEPTOR!!!
I like the droid army. It’s cheap, fast to produce, and require no training because they are programmed. If it was improved, it would be the perfect army. I suggest programming better and more modern tactics other than fighting in columns. Also, I would create more accurate weapons so that they can actually aim.
The problem with your suggestion is it would cost more, lots more. Which means less droids would have to be made to offset the cost, thus reducing the separatist number advantage.
@@SelfProclaimedEmperor wich also means they'd be less effective aganist jedi, and would still lack creativity, so the droids would still be quite innefective individua
Aimbot ...the end
Regular soldiers don't need better programming. They're just played off as waaaay dumber in the Clone Wars. If they can follow orders, take cover, aim, and fire then they're already basically done. Just some finishing touches like design, using vehicles, etc and their done.
The battle droids fought way better in the movies, the animators just didn't want to spend a lot more time animating the droids actually doing productive things as then it'd be even harder for them to justify a tiny group go clones defeating them and they just wanted to make there seem like there was a threat that needed to be defeated.
And for the aiming thing, the only reason it seems they can't aim well is because they're always facing off against main characters. If that wasn't the case, 99% of all the characters we know and love would be dead.
While all your points are worthy, the door swings both ways. Palpatine also restricted the Republic's, namely the Jedi's ability to wage the war in a more effective manner. Multiple assassination attempts on the life of Count Dooku and others shot down, captured enemies sprung from prisons due to inside help, negotiations bogged down purposefully, information leaked, officers captured at random, etc.
Without Palpatine, a great deal of the problems, especially political, that plagued the Republic during the war would not occur or would not happen as often.
Imagine if the early attempts on Dooku's life had succeeded, or if Wat Tambor and Nute Gunray continued to rot in Republic prisons? The majority of Seperatists finest agents, such as their Mandalorian and Trandoshian operatives, or bounty hunters like Cad Bane being captured and deposed of without interference? Peace movements not being purposefully sabotaged from within and perhaps convincing entire star systems to leave the war?
As I said, the door swings both ways.
EXACTLY!!! for the entirety of the war senators like padme and bail Organa had been advocating a peaceful resolution to the conflict and were constantly being sabotaged and the main reason the CIS had such a larger army than the republic at the beginning of the war is because dooku and sidious were helping the trade federation and techno union build there armies in secret years beforehand if the republic had figured this out earlier than the republic would have begun to raise there own army in response.
Noah Orakwue But the separatists could still mass produce droids much faster.
You didn't go far enough. The war would have never started at all.
And the massive fleet of new ships (as in a new model that was never specified) Palpatine withheld until the battle of Coruscant
yeah but without the leadership they're useless
If Wat Tambor used his techno, the republic would have fallen in a year.
alsoknownas SIMON No, the Techno Union is just a company. It can’t field anything.
Super Blue Toad My boi. EVERY single faction that manufactured the droids for war, sometimes used these droids with their own business. The Techno Union once used the NR-N99 to enforce their policies. They were the same tanks used on Kashykk.
Napalm Man It couldn’t field enough droids.
@@firebluetoad3990 wooosh
@@firebluetoad3990 clearly someone doesn't understand the meme
it was pretty obvious that CIS had the advantage, dont remember where(some legends material) it was mentioned that CIS by 22BBY already had four times the number of ships the GAR had. Add that to troops that were the definition of expendable soldiers and you would have easy war.
Roger roger
ROGER ROGER
By your command.....
Roger Roger
Roger Roger
angelo bellizzi is that an evil roger roger?
Atleast Kalani in rebels said so and he is super tactical droid
What even happened to surviving Droids though?
B2 Super battledroid deactivated and scrapped by the empire for money/ not deactivated and continued the separatist movement in smaller strongholds and worlds
A CIS free of Palpatine's influence could have been very effective. The B1 droids were good for overwhelming with numbers but not much else, an effective command would have shifted to smaller numbers of more advanced droids in many cases.
Actually, the B1 was nearly perfect as an Infantry Droid.
Yes, it wasn't all that smart, but as Alan pointed out, individual ingenuity only wins battles, not wars.
Really all they needed was more effective commanding, which they technically already had when they were all linked to a central command computer.
As long as you de-centralized your Command Controllers and removed the "shut down in absence of a Control Signal" fail-safe, the Droid Army would have been a nightmarish enemy to face, with CC able to coordinate it's B1s with precision down to the Droid at the VERY least.
Definitely, a backup for droid control would've changed the outcome in many situations, particularly on Naboo.
Of course, one of the biggest mistakes made by the CIS was to shift combat processing completely over to the B1's end instead of somewhere in between.
Now, their limited autonomy is a crucial addition to their combat capacity (The Republic would know doubt discover a means of jamming or disrupting Command's signals), but putting ALL the thinking on the individual Droid just over taxed them.
Instead, why didn't Tactical Droids also have a direct information link to every B1 in the area, allowing them to operate as a miniature Droid Tactical Command Computer at the Platoon or Company level?
actually tactical droids are brigade level, oom command droids are platoon-regimental level and were always independant but were connected to the CC and the droids around them (they were programmed to 'give orders' so their organic superiors knew what they were saying) if they had done that to all droids aswell as CC then you would have mini CC computers in every level of command
+Matthew Burger
Which still would be nightmarish to fight, as the Droid army would become smarter the larger it was, with Platoons acting completely in sync and entire brigades acting as a single unit.
So if you shot one droid, it would alert at least its entire platoon, and they'd have an idea where you were shooting from shortly afterwards with still a dozen droids at the ready.
The whole 200,000 units number is a little vague. The more realistic interpretation of this figure would be 200,000 companies of clones. This makes more sense due to in real life the company being the first major unit of a fighting force. Also why would the Kaminoans say units? The word "Troops" would make more sense if you were referring to individual soldiers. Also honestly the GAR probably had tens of millions of clones, because in order to have a large drawn out war to bring Palpatine to UNLIMITED POWER you would need two forces that could face off equally. Thus a large Clone Army would be needed.
Not really because if you look at the numbers at geonosis the far deployed roughly around 200000 clones
Generation Tech Would it really be realistic for an entire galaxy to only have an army of 200k soldiers.
The Kaminoans called the Clones "Units" because that's what they are.
A Product that was made and shipped out. A Unit. Not a person, but simply Merchandise.
Hannes Lück I know that but it still makes No sense. The CIS probably had 1.000.000 times more soldiers than the Republic.
The much more practical answer (and more meta) is that Lucas just didn't properly consider how many sheer troops it'd take to run a galaxy-wide army and threw out the 200'000 figure to sound big.
Every time I listen to these kind of videos, I realize how small a war this actually was, and the inexperience of everyone involved is staggering.
Thank you Generation Tech for keeping me looking forward to your vids!
Absolutely, we had the light saber invincible super battle droids. They were forced to a halt due to palpatine saying they were to powerful. And many other projects could have won the war.
Thank you so many people keep saying that even without Palpatine the republic could have won and that is completely wrong. The CIS were able to pierce to the core worlds easily while the republic couldn't even reach the main separatist worlds. Also the sepratists could produce soldiers faster and deploy them faster
Nah, the Seps would have had zero chance of actually winning the war without Palpatine hamstringing the war effort every step of the way. The Jedi alone would have represented enough power to defeat the CIS single handedly if led properly and deployed intelligently. CIS soldiers are crap and little to no threat to anyone. It would have been almost impossible for the Republic to lose.
There also the issues that the droids can be defeated destroying one of the CIS platforms back in Phantom Menace. After that, the droids army were a bunch idiots using numbers to their advantage. Could you believe the CIS can make a sound tactical decision on their own?
demecowen They actually fixed that issue in the lore. The B-1 battle droids received a upgrade that allowed them to operate without a command ship.
With the trade off being that the B-1s became really stupid and ineffective fighters.
CedarHunt doesn't matter when there's litterally enough B1's to crush every single clone under their physical mass without even needing to arm the B1's...
While it's a fundamentally unanswerable question and you make good points, you also leave out a few things that would fall in the Republic's favor:
1) Republic forces improved over the course of the war far more quickly than their Separatist counterparts did. Besides integrating new technology, armor and tactics, the Republic's elite clone and Jedi units also became among the most experienced fighters the galaxy had ever seen. Though casualties were obviously taken along the way, the resulting troops were many times more effective than they had been at the start of the war. And this didn't just apply to those units lucky enough to survive many battles - through training and teaching by veterans, and by studying the experiences of their predecessors, Shinies and new Padawans and Jedi Knights were more capable than their early-war counterparts. The Droid Army, on the other hand, had no comparable increase in efficiency, other than the deployment of more Commando Droids and Magnaguards.
2) The Separatist logistic game was not as superior as it seems. The CIS lost huge numbers of troops and resources over the course of the war. Obviously they'd planned for that, but the repeated loss of whole armies, fleets, bases and planets would take a toll on any military. Of course, the CIS had large corporate backers, but those companies didn't have unlimited resources, and a galaxy in total chaos was harming their bottom line, at least a bit. War is not profitable if you're selling weapons to yourself. In the early stages of the war, they compensated for this by looting conquered worlds (see Ryloth), but as that dried up after repeated Republic victories, forcing the CIS to squeeze more resources out of an ever-shrinking collection of planets. The Republic, on the other hand, while deep in debt had a far larger civilian population and industrial base to rely on. They also seemed to be rallying more and more local forces (Ryloth resistance, Obedon rebels, Wookie forces) to their side, supplementing the clone forces.
3) The war would be won or lost in space, not on the ground. While the Separatist navy was undoubtedly powerful, the Republic by the end of the war seemed to be matching, if not exceeding it. The Battle of Coruscant was, after all, tactically a tie, despite the CIS's element of surprise and massive fleet. (Said battle, incidentally, could not have happened in this alternate timeline, as Grevious needed Palpatine to give him the secret hyperspace route to make the attack). Even if they began to run out of clones, the Republic could still field just as many ships using non-clone personnel, conscripted or otherwise, as it eventually did with the Imperial Navy. Being able to keep the Separatists from deploying their army of billions(?) of droids reduces the numbers problem considerably.
4) The Republic was far more resilient in the event of leadership change. The sudden loss of Yoda or Mace Windu or Chancellor NotPalpatine would be a serious blow to the Republic for sure, but it would not cripple them in nearly the same way as the loss of Dooku or Grevious would harm the Confederacy. Despite being a technical democracy, it was the corporations and the Sith who held the real power in the CIS. This weakness is multiplied when combined with the increase in strength by elite Jedi, as the Separatist supply of quality Jedi killers became depleted over time. Given the sheer number of times Republic agents came close to killing or capturing Grevious and Dooku (not to mention other Seppie leaders like Gunray), they would eventually succeed in a Utapau or Mustafar-style operation. Additionally, the unmasking and capture or elimination of Darth Sidious (I am assuming that in this timeline he exists, but is not the Chancellor) would also likely be a crushing blow, while the Republic is holding no such secret.
At the end of the day, the true answer to this question is that it was a race between the Republic's increasing effectiveness and their finally running out of clones and Jedi to deploy. The endgame Republic were winning, but on a time limit, and it's an unanswerable question if they would have been able to take out enough CIS leaders or territory before they lost the war of attrition and/or public opinion. It's quite possible that a settlement would be able to be reached, especially if the Sith were eliminated. But we'll never know for sure.
Then again, the CIS _were_ able to get to Kamino and deploy an invasion, simply due to their massive (if technologically inferior) fleets. Of course, that land invasion failed, but they could have just orbitally bombarded the place on a return attack (that would almost certainly have happened if not for Palpatine), which would have crippled the Republican war machine.
On the other hand, the CIS had very decentralised industries, which meant that no single location could completely wipe their manpower (droidpower??) in the case that it was destroyed.
That, along with a following push into the Core worlds (perhaps another attack on Coruscant) that would completely tank the Republic's manpower, would win the war.
Well, to bombard Kamino, they'd have to get through the Kamino fleet, which is no easy task. I suppose if they took all the ships they sent to Coruscant and sent them there, that might be enough, but they wouldn't have the element of surprise that they did at Coruscant (no secret hyperspace route), and would have every Venator in that half of the galaxy rushing to reinforce Kamino. It's my impression that the Battle of Coruscant was an all-or-nothing attack of just about every ship they had left, and if that fleet was decimated, their defenses would be severely weakened. Even if Kamino fell, that wouldn't stop the clone forces already in the field, and the Republic could probably switch to conventional soldiers (as the Empire did), especially in the navy. While Separatist production was decentralized, they were on the defensive by Episode 3, losing planets left and right and greatly reducing their production and resource collection compared to the early and middle phases of the war. It's true that the CIS could probably win a war of attrition, but it seems that the Republic was winning up until that attrition kicked in. Still, I agree that a CIS victory was possible, especially since they could win by surviving, without having to conquer all of Republic space itself.
It sucks that the only rationale against your points and the only rationale consistently defending supporting them is “plot armor.” Plot armor is stronger in Star Wars than any other fictional universe, so much so that it limits the viability of logistical discussions and anything past that limit is arbitrary. Thematic control of situations trumps all.
For example you claim the republic forces have only grown stronger through the course of the clone wars, yet in a lot of instances, the droids become more dangerous as the Clone Wars continue (instances provided by the show.) The improved clones seem to be bested in worse fashion by droids that haven’t improved over the course of the clone wars, in comparison to the clones at the start of show. In rookies we see literal rookies, completely green soldiers hold off commando droids, yet by season 2 higher ranking clones assigned to and accompanied by a Jedi master have their hold out broken through and are almost completely wiped out with ease by commando droids. This is despite having not only more knowledge of the droids’ weaknesses by then, but also arguably having a more favorable position against them in the circumstance (more clones, a literal Jedi master, home field advantage and prepared firing positions.) I’m referring to the episode Grievous Intrigue. Obviously the answer is that the plot needed the droids the be more lethal to up the tragedy in the second situation, and for master Eeth Koth to be in danger. But while that makes for a great episode, it muddies the water for an in-universe explanation.
Another example is comparing the competence of clone pilots (piloting Y wings which aren’t even dog-fighting craft) in season 1, destroying swarms of vulture droids with relative ease, while in the battle over coruscant, years later and near the end of the clone wars, we see clone pilots struggle heavily to use arc-170s (dog fighting craft) against vulture droids. They weren’t able to stop grievous from getting to the surface of coruscant either. Again, thematic elements. So to nullify the glaring thematic elements we shouldn’t make huge claims like “the republic were starting to much outpace the CIS as the war went on,” we should stick with “the clones and cis were on equal terms throughout the war, some circumstances simply dictated wether or not one would win against the other in a given battle. EU is often a discrepancy against this, thinking it needs to get ever possible detail of the aforementioned “circumstances,” which often directly contradicts what we observe in canon material.
One logistical counter point I’ll make to the claim of droids not evolving like the clones were, while this is true, you forget that the CIS would regularly phase out droid models they believed to be obsolete in favor of more specialized versions. For example classic tactical droids were completely replaced by the superior super tactical droids by season 4 of the clone wars. (This would also debunk your claim that the CIS was worse at adapting to new leadership. With this change the CIS only grew more powerful.) And back to the adaptations, let’s not forget the inclusion of droidekas that could suddenly snipe, MTT models outfitted with artillery, etc. and these models always seem to take the republic by surprise. I’d wager the CIS would’ve been much more active in archetyping their models and cutting the incurred costs of less useful models if they didn’t have such typically tight leashes. And entertaining the inconsistent EU logic like you, some EU sources also state that palpatine himself halted the production of certain droid models early in the war for being too powerful. For example hail fire droids, which could explain why we didn’t see any in the clone wars, despite being very effective in the first battle of geonosis. While the real explanation is that the clone wars animators wouldn’t have been able to animate a bunch of hailfires on their budget, there are superseding reasons like that to pretty much any point we can make. And since the EU seems to (messily) crutch thematic elements and support a lot of your claims, it opens a whole different can of worms for mine.
@@SageSea1 We should definitely keep in mind that all of this is analysis of fiction written by people who didn't care about logistics and knew very little about math, so it's all kind of pointless. That said...
I disagree with your assessment about commando droids. The episode "Rookies" is clearly meant to show the droids as superior fighters to rookie clones (as shown when they take the base the first time), with the rookies only winning when they get the element of surprise. In the first episode of the Slaves of the Republic arc, on the other hand, there is a fight between conventional clone troopers (with Jedi support) and commando droids on roughly even ground in which the later-game clones roll over the droids with almost no casualties. The Clone Wars generally depicts later-season clones as doing better than early-season clones, although some of that might be the animators learning more about military tactics like taking cover. Still, I think it makes absolute in-universe sense for the end-of-war clones to be better than the start-of-war clones - that's what happens to armies in long wars unless they are being completely demolished, which the Republic was not.
On droid variants, we still see plenty of B1s in Episode III, so they clearly didn't have across-the-line upgrades. In theory, a Palpatine-less CIS could have invested more in advanced and varied models, but that generally runs counter to their M.O., and would be difficult to do as they constantly lose labs and factories. The supertactical droids were certainly better than their predecessors, but the Republic was still crushing them, which adds to my conclusion that it was evolving better than the CIS was.
I don't quite know what this "EU logic" you are talking about is. I based all of this on the movies and The Clone Wars, with some auxiliary logic. We know of a number of Republic victories in conventional battle, and the fact that every battle shown in Episode III except Coruscant (a brief sneak attack) and Kashyyyk was on CIS or neutral ground indicates to me that the Republic is winning. There are very few battles in TCW where Palpatine directly sabotages the CIS's chances - he doesn't at Ryloth, he doesn't at Geonosis, he doesn't at Mon Cala and he arguably does the opposite at Umbara (by taking away Anakin). If anything, pre-Disney EU stuff tends to depict the CIS as more dangerous and power (and with more absurd logistics and numbers) than the on-screen material.
To summarize my overall point, the question of "Would the CIS have won if Palpatine didn't want them to lose?" is fundamentally unanswerable. I feel confident in my assessment that the Republic was evolving faster than the CIS, but the Confederacy could theoretically have evolved faster or simply won the attrition war - it's impossible to say.
That was a really interesting episode. Good job. I do look forward to the next one.
Your mic is cracking..
Melese Ghetahun {ImpPro} okay good I thought it was my earbuds
Same, I was chilling and listening to it, resting my eyes so I'm like fuck gotta pay attention.
Oh thank god! I thought it was time to buy a new set of headphones
I'd love to see a "what if" for the Seperatists vs the Empire.
Personally, I think the CIS would beat them if you exclude Jedi and Sith.
No my stormbois would prevail
You should do a video on if all the clones in episode II and III were replaced with porgs.
seclaverie Or all of the Clones wars clones becoming Porgs. I'd watch that.
That be called the Porg Wars
The Republic Commando novels is my favorite series in the EU. I would love to see you do a video on the series. Keep up the great work i look forward to your videos.
Glory to the Separatist Alliance!!!
We wield the mightiest droid army the galaxy has ever seen! Those Republic scum will be kneel to the banner of the Confederacy! Continue your assault Admiral *coughs repetedly*
By your command, General Grievous. All vessels, full power to weapons! Break through those Republic ships!
Charge! For the Separatist Alliance!
Roger roger
For freedom! Roger Roger.
*My take on the Strategy and Information regarding the Clone Wars*
OVERVIEW
Could the CIS military have won the Clone Wars if left unhindered/left alone without Darth Sidious's manipulations? *Yes* quite logically and reasonably.
Now, ever since the time Attack Of The Clones (2002) was released (at which point I was about 10 years old) to mixed reviews, to put it kindly, I have long wondered about various aspects of the film. When integrated into a larger view of what George Lucas wanted to create in the prequel films as a whole, with considerations to how things fit in the expanded universe/Legends material, it becomes quite obvious that narrative changes happened repeatedly before and after more recent additions to the canonical/legends universe of Star Wars in general, and that it is very easy to confuse certain things.
For example, in the Star Wars The Clone Wars 3D animated series, there is a subplot in one of the seasons about there being a plan (which is successful) to get over 3,000,000 more clone troopers paid for. This in itself is quite bizarre as by that point, even in the episode in which it belongs, it doesn't really make much sense.
Not only is 3 million a terribly low number of troopers for the story line in the episode to be so dramatic and tense over, considering the broader scale and scope of the Clone Wars, but it would obviously not be useful to the strategic situation any time soon - as they'd take years to be completed and ready for battle (and yes, cloning technology was moving forward and gradually reducing the time elapsed to produce a fully battle ready trooper, but *during* the Clone Wars, that technology was still at a point whereby it would take years to carry such an order out)
Strategically speaking, the Republic still possessed around half of the systems once held by itself prior to the crisis which led to several thousand leaving as Separatists under the CIS banner. It numbered thousands of worlds, protected trillions and quadrillions of citizens, even in dark and brutal times, a true powerhouse both economically and culturally. However, it was militarily weak after a thousand years of anti-military policies and cultural pacifism, relying on overly disparate varieties of local security and police forces, as well as constabulary and judicial forces across the galaxy to try to maintain order, with the Jedi Order relied upon heavily for diplomacy, peacekeeping and more dangerous assignments, mostly in a covert and stealthy capacity (on behalf of the Republic they swore to defend)
The Jedi Order itself, had over the centuries, ironically become complacent, somewhat jaded on a spiritual and pragmatic level, taken for granted by the crime and corruption ridden galaxy at large and perhaps most ironically of all, even at their height of power, they only accounted for 11,000 or so individuals. They were, as Dooku knew, impossibly outnumbered, militarily. Spread thin, or used ineffectively, most having no true grasp of military necessities or strategic arts of war, in their pacifism driven disdain for violence and conflict. This, in itself, causing situations during the Clone Wars where lives would be lost under some Jedi with poor leadership/strategic skills, which could otherwise have been saved in the hands of a more competent strategist.
The Clone Troopers were vital to the Republic, as without them, not even the Jedi could stop the overwhelming numbers of Battle Droids.
*However* it is at this point we should question the logic behind the conceptualisation of the Clone Army and Grand Army of the Republic overall, as it has become hugely messed up by successive waves of production since 2002 to this day. Star Wars often gets military strategy utterly wrong. I love Star Wars, but it is a mess when it comes to battle tactics and battle strategy mostly. Especially in space battles. When it comes down to it, Lucas and others involved including the writers of TCW series. They had/have no idea about how war works, and it gets to become extremely cringeworthy in my opinion, in many instances. It comes off as a desperate attempt to seem realistic within the fictional setting and genre that Star Wars definitely belongs to, but at the same time, it smacks of laziness and lack of clarity on how to coherently address the military implications of such a massive war as the Clone Wars.
It is not unreasonable to ask something built on wars among the stars, to get wars right, on a logical level. Yes, the character stories, character arcs, themes, musical scores, aesthetics, styles, moral stories, references, cultural idioms and plot points matter hugely to a film based franchise which has decades of cultural phenomenon status. Yes, all of what makes Star Wars, Star Wars, isn't necessarily too concerned with getting the finer details of military strategy down correctly. It is fiction, not real life. I know, I know...but still, it breaks my immersion in the story completely when something stupid stares me in the face. In AOTC, there were various stupid things in a rather hit and miss film, but lets face it - 200,000 units and another million well on the way, as the Kaminoan Prime Minister declared proudly, is among the most stupid.
That is, if we assume ''unit'' = 1 trooper.
Unit could mean many things. Company; Battalion; Legion; Army etc. From a logical standpoint, 200,000 is indeed suspiciously close to the 192,000 deployed units in the First Battle of Geonosis. This, in itself, is so remarkably and conveniently close a figure to 200,000, that my alarm bells have always rung when thinking about the creative thought that when behind that figure of 200,000. As much as I'd like to think ''units'' could mean larger and broader terms in specific contexts, that might be wishful thinking; I am not going to doubt that Lucas did indeed green-light that figure, not for one moment. It is exactly the kind of daft thing he'd allow. 200,000 units probably really was intended to be 200,000 men. Even if it is officially made clear in new material that the 192,000 clones at the First Battle of Geonosis, is just a coincidental number, I wouldn't be convinced that Lucas himself thought this way back in 2002 or earlier.
1.2 million Clone Troopers VS Billions/Trillions of Droids, would make for a brief and bloody war. The thing is, nobody truly knows how many clones or Droids there were. What we do know, is that the war lasted 3 years, raged on thousands and thousands of worlds, saw many huge battles and countless smaller scale battles and skirmishes, was violent enough that Jedi Knights perished by the dozens month by month as the war dragged on, and that by the time of Order 66 there had been millions of Clone fatalities already - but that far more Clones still lived. Ultimately, the Republic was stretched thin in a vain effort to engage the vast CIS forces. In legends and canon material, it is claimed that the CIS was on the ropes especially after the Battle of Coruscant where so many CIS forces and ships were lost. This, however, ignores the fact that the vast majority of CIS power was not lost at the Battle of Coruscant and that the CIS Navy alone still possessed immense numerical superiority over the Republic Navy. Around 10,000 Jedi still lived up to the moment of Order 66 being carried out. Order 66 in its first minutes alone had an approximate 99% efficiency rating and so killed around 9,900/10,000 or so Jedi alive up until that point, with less than/around 100 Jedi surviving. Clearly, the Jedi were heavily engaged and embroiled in the conflict. Very few Jedi remained on Coruscant comparatively speaking, compared to peacetime (or even earlier points in the war)
This indicates that: a) the Clone Wars had forced the Jedi to lead clone troopers and other forces in various places, and that well over 9,000, up to 9,900 or so, were killed while leading troopers who turned on them. Thousands of Clones died to achieve this all told, of course, as even trapped and ambushed Jedi could fight back and cause damage among Clone ranks. However, the savagery of the attack ended the lives of the vast majority of the Jedi Order within about 5 minutes from the Order being issued I think. Yoda was being barraged emotionally, and his heart must have been breaking into little pieces as the tremors in the force hit him. This proves that the Clone Wars *could not have been winding down as some sources claim because why would 99% of the entire population of the Jedi Order be leading frontline forces which murdered them personally in the betrayal?* I mean, just think about it. Sure, a few percent of that figure come from the hundreds slain in the Jedi Temple during Operation Knightfall/Anakin's attack on the temple, but most were away on active duty around the galaxy. This should instantly dismiss any notion that the CIS was ''on the back-foot'' as some like to believe. The CIS was still a threat even after Order 66 and the defeat of General Grievous. That is why Palpatine - not needing to use the CIS anymore - wanted Anakin/Vader to shut down the droid armies in the vast deactivation orders he gave to him to tell the CIS ship captains in a broadcast around the galaxy. Most obeyed the command and the war was effectively over.
Had they all disobeyed and kept fighting, the war could have ended as a CIS victory.
I've seen people claim on here that the hidden/secret reserve forces (spearheaded by over 1,000 brand new Venator-class Star Destroyers debuted late on in the long running Battle of Coruscant) of Palpatine, would have won the war. This, I'm really unsure about. Strategically and tactically, 1,000 new Venators would be truly impressive and important. But still not enough to win the war, not in an attritional manner. The CIS Navy had tens of thousands if not millions of ships in the galaxy.
It just makes no sense for the CIS not to win the war in space. There is a lot that makes no sense, I can explain how too.
ThePalaeontologist Wasted half of your life, you did, By writing this whole comment.
Only an Edgelord deals in absolutes.
I remember when UA-cam had a much shorter comment character limit...
In any case, after reading your first couple paragraphs, I absolutely agree with you. If you want more realistic depictions of space warfare look to Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica.
lol those two are dogshit compared to the Xeelee Sequence books and hard sci-fi universe of Stephen Baxter. The Xeelee would well and truly eat the SW universe (which I love a lot, but it is true, SW is outclassed here) and those two (Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica) alive - all of them put together - with shocking ease. The Xeelee are the kind of chaps who'd give the Time Lords from Doctor Who a run for their money on power. They go so far beyond most competition in sci-fi that realism becomes meaningless as they can just go back in time and kill your ancestors deleting you from the timeline of the new paradigm they want. It isn't even a fight at that point. Even if they allow the prospect of conventional space warfare, the Xeelee would hilariously stomp all over the aforementioned factions (again, combined) The Xeelee go back 20 billion years to the dawn of the universe; and time travel, and casually have the lion's share of ownership of the entire universe (billions of galaxies) They are like Precursors from HALO meets Time Lords and then layer on a few billion more years for the shits and giggles. They control their own evolution and genetic engineering and are total masters of universal travel (the Time Lords of DW were more, multiversal, giving them advantages over the Xeelee if we compare them...however, the Time Lords were very few in number) The Xeelee are beyond Forerunner (HALO) numbers (at their prime, prior to what the Flood did to them) i.e. quintillions and are effectively immortal unless killed in war. They are beasts.
Oh and, there is something in the Xeeleeverse/Xeelee universe that wholesale defeated the Xeelee save for those that managed to build and use ''the ring'' which basically opened up a portal to another universe (making them multiversal, though it was perhaps their civilisation's greatest ever feat and a last ditch move, as they were defeated by a ravenous enemy far, far scarier than the Flood...the Photino Birds)
Photino Birds are anti-matter/dark matter beings and effectively anti-matter star birds that are like living black holes. They eat all life they encounter and all matter; the turn matter to anti-matter and as though that isn't bad enough, they can time travel and dimension hop at will. They are a near unstoppable force of astronomical nature. They eat galaxies for dinner and *even the Xeelee* lost against them. The best the Xeelee could do after many years fighting a losing battle against them, was to open up the Ring device, and save as many fleeing space-faring species they could, including very few of their own kind. The Xeelee, just for perspective, would ROFLstomp practically any sci-fi faction save for perhaps the Time Lords and Daleks. They are just too powerful; but they lost to the Photino Birds. It got to a point when they'd lost so much of the universe, they just gave up and realised they were playing for time. Kind of like how the Forerunners realised they couldn't conventionally beat the Flood - and trillions died figuring this out - and so they reluctantly, tragically fired the HALO rings after ensuring their AI drones and sentinels, as well as AI monitors, would later reseed life in the Milky Way Galaxy. In that comparison, Flood=Photino Birds and Forerunners=Xeelee (on different scales obviously, the Forerunners were very powerful but would be like just a rather primitive piece of a wider Xeelee universe in comparison - and most of the HALO universe, which I also love, talk about Forerunners like they were gods cos it felt that way)
The Photino Birds would just literally eat the Flood and cannot be infected by them. How does one infect anti-matter lol just about the only way to kill Photino Birds is to fire black holes at them basically. Yes...fire black holes at them or basically get them stuck in an extremely and I mean *extremely* high gravity field quickly. All else fails; they just eat whatever else hits them. They are fucking horrific. A swarm of them just turn the lights off on entire galaxies, literally. They kill stars, feeding on their cores till they turn into white dwarf stars destined to fizzle out trillions of years later in a lifeless universe. That was literally the fate of the original universe of the story of the Xeelee Sequence, and they just went ''fuck no'' after losing basically most of the galaxy. The Xeelee, like the Forerunners, were ultimately good guys but not lacking their own dodgy characters (nobody is perfect) They benevolently saved humanity and other species. But all of HALO takes place in the Milky Way Galaxy and at most in terms of getting further away from Earth, the LMC (Large Magellanic Cloud) known as the Path Kethona satellite galaxy to the Forerunners. So our galaxy and a mini-galaxy next to us. That is it. Big for the likes of Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, HALO and Battlestar Galactica - but not to the likes of the Doctor Who universe/whoniverse and Xeeleeverse. Even Warhammer 40k is utterly dwarfed by the Xeeleeverse.
There are billions of galaxies in the universe, and that was the ball park of the Xeelee. But whereas it was a massive and staggering - even by Xeelee standards - feat to open up a portal in space to a ''safe universe free of Photino Birds'' as a fresh start, making them multiversal for the first time truly....well, the Time Lords and Daleks in Doctor Who played around with multiverse travel (and even weapons that can destroy the multiverse) relatively casually. 1 Time Lord could generally make entire galaxies tremble (and never fire a shot) Mastery of time is one helluva drug lol nevertheless, I don't know if anything can defeat the Photino Birds. Militarily speaking, firing a black hole at your enemy isn't exactly a great plan, even it it works on them - you'll soon be eaten by said black hole and/or killed as it collapses to radiation, letting off a thermonuclear bomb or bigger sized release of energy. Can see why the Xeelee lost...
Lol 99% efficiency in the first minutes. How retarded can it get?
I really appreciate your in-depth analysis in your videos. As a former service member I like the fact that you keep a lot of the information grounded in our reality and give a perspective of an earth born being. It's refreshing to hear that kind of data from a realistic, military point of view. Keep up the great work and I look forward to your future broadcasts!
Love the video, only thing that could make me happier is if you answer more questions like this, i haven't seen all of your videos so if you have more I'll find them
Wish I had a droid factory☹️
When i think about it it doesn't even make sense that the republic could stand a chance on the years between episode 2 and 3.
Apfel Schorle Why not?
The war of course was orchestrated by Palpatine and was stretched out only to make the Republic worlds more ready to accept eventual Imperial rule. Dooku was playing his part beca2he thought he would get to rule the CIS worlds. It's in the Revenge of the Sith novelization in Dooku's chapter.
it is basically the Nazis vs USSR. It's just about the numbers.
I recently found this channel by seeing some of your amazing theories and then I just kept watching and subbed. I love your videos. Keep up the good work!
Seperatist Droid Army: had *quadrillion(s)* of Droids combat ready.
Grand Army of the Republic: Likely had *Trillions* of clones (cause billions/millions is just an unrealistically small number) combat readt.
Take this as you will.
200,000 clones *units,* not necessarily clone individuals. I think Star Wars Theory did an entire video on it. A standard Clone Unit was something like 500 clones. He did some math and it turned out the Grand Army of the Republic was more around 100 Million initial clones with another 500 million clones on the way.
There are 21 Acclamators in the last shot of Attack of the Clones. Each Acclamator carried 16,000 troops. If we go off of that number, there are 336,000 clones on Corusant at that moment; well over the stated 200,000 individuals assumed to be there.
I don't think it makes sense to purely multiply Acclamators by their max carry capacity and use that as a QED. You have to remember that armies require supplies, medical equipment, support staff, logistics vehicles and all sorts of non-combat gear to function to any degree of effectiveness. If anything, 21 Acclamators (if that's the full amount) would suggest less than 200,000 total clone troopers being carried by them.
Excellent analysis of Palpatine's role in the Clone Wars!
As always an interesting and entertaining video! I watched almost all of your videos and I'm very impressed of my knowledge about star wars
Awesome video man :)
I can't help but imagine what would've happened if in some accident Palpatine got killed, such as during his 'kidnapping'. War has too many uncontrollable factors. You might be giving the the commanders on both sides their orders, but you can't control the chaos, the trooper who gets surprised and accidentally fires a shell towards the senate building.
Generation tech, one random question. Who would win, the earth federation after the Unicorn event vs the separatist alliance?. the role is both sides don't know each other. The galactic republic nor the independent colonies is out of the picture, lastly no WOD (weapons of mass destruction), and both sides are willing to fight until the end.
Palpatine was pretty much the only thing holding them back from winning. He sabotaged their production and killed anyone that was too good at their job.
To me it seemed like the GAR was om the verge og defeat, always barely scraping by, right up until the droid army was shut down
I wonder, if they had created clones that could regenerate like Deadpool, that simultaneously had robotic parts that could morph into whatever weapons they needed, not to mention be able to teleport motherbox style like Cyborg, would that have change anything? Like perhaps, turn the tide of the war?
droids have good slapstick humor
True.
Your videos are so entertaining that even my cat was watching it while I was doing something.
Great vids.
Good vid guys! Work on audio, but good. You could stagger the growth and training so that a new group of clones was fully grown and trained every few months
Well there's a large factor in your analysis that is overlooked. The CIS could produce near infinite droids for their army but they couldn't keep up with the Republic in Capital ship production. Thanks to Kuat, Rendali, Fondor, Corellia and Sienar the Republic could not only produce far more capital ships but develop larger and much more powerful ones en masse than the CIS which almost exclusively was limited to frigates and light cruisers. The first Victory and Imperator Star Destroyers were minted out in the Clone Wars and outclassed anything ship to ship in the CIS navy at that point. In SW if you control the space lanes you can isolate, besiege and bombard armies with relative impunity. The CIS couldn't win any drawn out war compared to the industrial and manpower the Republic could bring to bear over time. Much like the Tet Offensive, Operation Durges Lance was militarily a disaster for the CIS. They lost Dooku, nearly all their operational navy and the Republic navy could push deep into CIS territory after with little resistance.
That makes sense on the surface, but the Separatists actually held superiority in space for most of the war, and even at the end they held numerical supremacy. Yes, the Republic had bigger and better ships, but that was for the same reason that the republic used clones: Quality over Quantity. In the end, the Seperatists had lighter ships, but they used many more of them. See the Eckhart's Ladder video on the subject.
@@tspoon772 that way manly do to palpatine limiting the production of ships
@gheddi A larger and increasingly outgunned and inferior navy. Numerically they couldn't keep up in space by the end of the CW once the Outer Rim sieges, the battle of Coruscant and the losses incurred while their production centers were targeted mounted up. On the opposite side, the Republic's shipyards were almost entirely out of CIS ability to threaten and they could continue to produce with impunity vessels that could threaten entire CIS fleets. A majority of the CIS vessels would fit into frigate and cruiser levels with thin armor and shields. Exceptions were Lucrehulks but they were deficient in armament. The Republic by the end of the CW was moving to producing vessels that could fight numerous CIS vessels at once with little danger to themselves such as the Victory and Imperial class. The CIS could produce many inferior vessels in lighter shipyards, but that's equivalent to saying that you could produce chariots faster than an M1 Abrams, but the Abrams is going to have a field day slaughtering scores of chariots while still accomplishing its goals. So not only does the Republic hold the qualitative edge by wars end, but with control over nearly all the major shipyard by the point, they could also mass produce that quality. The only reason the war even lasted as long as it did was largely due to the balancing act to make the situation appear more dire to give Palpatine more power.
What if Obi-Wan captured Grievous instead of killing him?
Then we would maybe see a Anakin vs grievous because I think he would go after the separatists to save them
@@christianhudi9589 hard to do that when you're captured
Grievous wouldn’t allow that to happen
Grievous wouldn’t allow that to happen
Grievous wouldn’t allow that to happen
Awesome video as usual
Awesome Video!!!!
love your new haircut
Would have been much harder. They did have information on the republic because of Palpatine.
King Quin The 9th but they also had a major quantity of force compared to the republic. Palpatine did more crippling than benefiting for the CIS
Sidious never wanted the CIS to gain ground. He simply needed them to pose a big enough threat that the republic would invade most of the Galaxy so when the republic become the empire he had already conquered everything. Also Sidious was the one that sent the CIS leaders to Mustafar so they would all be killed. The republic was crippled after the battle of courascant and the CIS leaders would've still been alive if it weren't for Sidious.
THIS VIDEO IS UH MAZING!!! I am Alyssa starting to explain the depth of the prequels and how brilliant they are to people. All they ever go back to is “but JarJar”. This video is now going to be a reference point for my Prequel apologetics. Thanks!
Generation tech,
Do you guys have a video on the non-droid units the separatists used? Like army and navy auxiliaries and supplemental forces?
This is why a hybrid army would be best. Large amounts of expendable drones as the main force coupled with genetically engineered clones trained from birth as special forces. What an army that would've been...
“I have more men than you have bullets!” In Modern terms. “I have more battle droids than you can produce clones!” Star Wars
This is something I've figured for a while. The only real possibility I can see for an honest victory by the GAR would have been to cut off droid production, either by striking the manufacturing facilities directly or by starving them of one or more vital resources. Without that, the CIS would have been able to win through sheer attrition even if the Republic citizenry didn't get sick of the war (something the CIS could help along with propaganda generating sympathy for the clone troopers and pointing out that they were effectively slaves). Were I in charge of CIS forces, I'd focus primarily on defending their ability to continue building droids while doing everything possible to maintain moral high ground and/or force the GAR to abandon said moral high ground.
5:20 interesting reference to the Vietnam War. I had never compared the battle of Coruscant to any Earth conflict before. But the Tet Offensive is a great comparison.
If it wasn't for palptine the conflict could've of been solved peacefully from what I understand about legends.
I love the commando series too!!
アマダン good choice of reading material, I must say👍🏼
I just made the 5000th like on this video! Grats for making great content that people love!
2:48 to 2:49, 3:03 to 3:04, 4:47 to 4:50 What was that background noise?
As always, wonderful video!
earth (Earth Defense Force 4.1) vs 501st Legion with no Orbital bombardment
The EDF deploys!
Genocide Guns and Armageddon Clusters all the way!
I'm going to answer the question for you, no the droids wouldn't have won, two words.... Captain rex
I'll make it simpler....Clone Army
This idea was one of the most sinister topics of the RC books I loved. That and when an audit showed credits being funneled for a "secret army and navy". These books were fantastic!
When we are shown the B1 battledroid production lines they move forward at about one step every three seconds (-ish). Assuming (correctly or not) that this is the actual production rate per production line gives us some interesting numbers to play with.
2 B1 battledroids every three seconds works out to 40 per minute per production line. 2400 per hour. 57600 per day.
Even if we make the assumption that each factory only has one production line, how many factories does, for example, Geonosis have? Let's say it's 5.
On average, how many B1s does a clonetrooper destroy before dying? 5? 10? 100? Let's say it's 100.
Each B1 factory's daily output would then kill, on average, 576 clonetroopers per day.
If all of these uncertain numbers are true, then each week that Geonosis produces B1 battledroids uninterrupted would, on average, result in the deaths of 20160 clonetroopers, or ~1.6% of the Republic's 1200000 clonetroopers that they'd have early on in the war.
Geonosis probably has more than 5 production lines total.
The CIS has more planets than Geonosis producing B1s.
Clonetroopers probably kill a lot less than 100 B1s on average.
The CIS has been producing droids for months or years before the war, though probably at nowhere near full production rates.
The tactical and strategic benefits of outnumbering your opponents troops by a thousand to one or more also cannot be overstated. While they spread out to defend, oh, a hundred different places, you attack five thousand places.
You might lose every single battle where they oppose you, but they can't oppose you if they aren't there.
Bingo, you've hacked the reason why quantity beats quality. Especially if its a large numerical advantage. Even if you lose all the battles, you can be in far more places than they can.
I don't think they only created 1.2 million clones. When they say units I think they mean battalions or some form of grouping they use to number their clones. Maybe units is another word for battalion or legion. I think it's impossible that they only had 200000 clones at the beginning of the war. A single large city could drawn upon more soldiers than that.
Imperialx Nicholas. WW1 and WW2 were of a much grander scale than the Clone Wars, Germany alone had 11 million men in WW1 and 13 million in WW2. That is one country fighting on one planet. The Republic has over 1 million planets, the CIS around 10s of thousands!
The separatists couldn't win because they don't have a sick Australian accent
Aaron Kaplan That's a kiwi accent mate !
Lol
I like your videos very much, theye're very interesting and give much insight into the SW universe, but I admit that sometimes I completely don't understand what you say XDXD but it must be because I'm hungarian :)
nah its cool sometimes i don't even know what i'm saying ;)
It makes you wonder how the Empire and the Republic did battle before the prequels. Like in SWTOR which has a lot of potential for story telling with Revan an all that as you also saw big space battles.
Honestly, looking at the CIS's power and positioning, it's not really a question.
They should have won, that's it.
Second. its true. I claimed it. I wanted to dew it to dew'd it.
Could you do a video on all the people in the Catacombs of Cadera? It's Saw's hideout from Rogue One. I thought there were a lot of badass and interesting looking characters there, but we learn pretty much nothing about them. I don't know if there even is any information on them, but if there is, could you guys cover it? Just like the All Aliens in Mos Esley Cantina video
Music is a synthy version of Mov. II of Bachs Brandenburg Concerto No.2
One thing I’d like to point out is the leadership for the GAR and CIS. Notable commanders for the GAR include the likes of Obi Wan and Anakin, war hero’s who can fight, and do very well with their tactics. On the opposing side, the only real strong commanders the CIS had were Admiral Trench and Dooku. Grevious and Ventress demonstrated numerous times their failure to lead an army to victory, and they are leaps and bounds ahead of guys like Gunray and Watt Tambor. The GAR was outnumbered, but had a vastly superior leadership with superior soldiers. The CIS should have just used more tactical droids....
Keep in mind the CIS had largely puppets in control of their military, if they had truly talented military leaders Sidious would have had a much harder time controlling them.
Ways they could win:
-Orbital Bombardement on Kamino.
Ƥ4Ƭяι0т Drive a ship at lightspeed into Kamino just like the movies
not even a guilty pleasure, im addicted to these vids
Was the static just me or did other get that, then again, still a great video
1 clone trooper is like 10 b1 battledroids like a finnish soldiers out matches 10 russian soldiers
But the way clones fought was like if the Finnish soldiers walked at a Russian charge
Robert Wesolowski soviet union had 3times more soldiers than finland 100 times more tanks and 33 times more planes. And red army was coming there with its all might so your assumptiom about it was quite wrong. And finns were still counter attacking untill the soviet attack in february when mannerheim line fell. Atleast we didn't fall for the greater evil like the rebublic
No I wasn’t trying to say he clones were under prepared but numerically they weren’t smart. They were engaging in frontal battles with droids way to often it was making them pointless in skill
Robert Wesolowski the clone wars is like battle in the old days like during the napoleon wars marced in straight line firing rifles.
Except one side used soldiers that cost a ton and the other basically cost nothing. There was no reason for such an elite force I’d they were just gonna stand right in front of each other
I would love to see a movie from the CIS’s point of view. Maybe even a sort of “what if” scenario where Palpatine didn’t hold them back.
We often forget how insignificant ground battles are when fighting galactic organisations. What's more important is the Space battles, where separatist ships where almost completely automated. Thats where it might be a lot easier to even the odds - building a capital ship for the Republic is probably a lot closer in time to building a droid capital ship than the clone/droid difference.
a great analysis
There should be quadrillions of clones and quintillions of droids. The tiny army sizes on both sides always bugged me.
Coruscant, having a trillion people (it should be more than a trillion, but that's another argument), should easy have billions in an army in no time.
Without Palpatine the republic would have started recruiting civilians while producing clones. That would have made the GAR 10 time bigger. And with Jedi to lead them they could destroy the CIS in a matter of months
If I was to lead the CIS, I'd make it so that I concentrate all units and fleets in one single, large cell, rather than many cells in various parts of the universe.
Venators were practically the only capital ship in the Republic's fleet, so the CIS should be able to identify its weak points and shift its doctrine or ship design to exploit those.
I would seize mineral-rich worlds like Kessel, etc. to get tons of resources or credits, atleast.
Begin an island hopping campaign with the fleet to seize backwater locations and inch slowly towards the more major worlds.
In battle, I would always have starfighters with every garrison, along with multiple turbolaser batteries, if defending.
On the offensive, I would just bring tons of armor into battle, while always ensuring that we have air superiority in order to do runs on Republic units.
Interesting analysis. This is why I love the clone wars over most of the star wars eras.
There were times when the droid army was about to lose but then palpatine stepped in, so no they wouldn’t have won
That was mainly because of Dooku, who couldn't overcommit to the war thanks to his master.
If the CIS were to go all in, the Republic would certainly have to fold.
they could of won, there was around 1M clones against around 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 droids.
Сергей Петров Well you’re assuming the Republic wouldn’t conscript normal people to bolster their army. They had a huge population advantage over the CIS.
Forgot to mention that the droids were made to NOT win the war but stall it and the best droids were shut down from his meddling so as not to get the war one sided and he also leaked info on droid factories to keep them stalling. Granted they could of still found the places without him tho
The Republic Commando series of books is amazing. One of my favorite book series.
Now this is good UA-cam content
Lama Su said that there were 200.000 units at ready with a million more well on the way . If we use the vague term "unit" as a group or a military unit , we get larger numbers . If a unit refers to a fireteam , are 5 millions clone troopers . If a unit refers to a squad , are 14 millions clone troopers . If a unit refers to a division of 25.000 troops , are 30 billions of clone troopers . If a unit refers to a corps of 50.000 troops , are 50 billions of clone troopers . If a unit refers a field army of 300.000 troops , are 300 billions of clone troopers . Toydarian King Katuunko said that the Droid Army outnumbered the clones by 100 to 1. Wich would gives the Clone Army quadrillions of soldiers against quintillions of battle droids.
One aspect of the Clone Wars I find noteworthy is the apparent focus on ground battles. Except for the Assault on Coruscant, most of the important battles we are shown seem to be decided in groundside engagements: Geonosis, Kashyyyk, Utapau, Mygeeto, etc.
And this makes very little sense from logic-perspective. In a galactic conflict, the focus would always realistically be in space combat, and naval superiority will be the deciding factor. This is because you need space superiority to even move your ground forces from planet to planet. They are completely useless otherwise, so the competition always becomes about whose fleet is stronger and can destroy or displace the opposing side.
Even worse, imagine you do have a large army on a planet and the enemy fleet gains orbital superiority: not only can they probably bomb you, what ground forces they do have will have infinitely more mobility than you, because they can be shuttled around by gunships and transports, at will, while your own gunships and transports are either destroyed or grounded by enemy fighters. The enemy could use this to rapidly concentratrate forces wherever you are weak and probably crush you, even with a significantly smaller ground force. Or they can simply ignore you and leave a small guarding fleet to keep you stuck while their main force goes on to strike at other targets.
In space, if you can decisively deafeat the enemy fleet, you win the war, which is why any fighting nation in such space will always invest disproportionate resources into naval power. And groundside engagements inevitably take a backseat.
However, the opposite seems to be the case in the Star Wars prequels. My guess is that this was done at least partly in order to give the Jedi something to do and look good, since piloting fighters just doesn't look as good onscreen as swinging your lightsaber. But it makes no sense whatsoever.
Compare this to the Galactic Civil war, where the battles were generally decided in Space and ground action was limited to commandos and base defense. Much more realistic.
Hi nice vid
I love droids! The battle droids hold a special place in my heart
Just noticed that part of the background music is the N64 rendition of Air by Johann Sebastian Bach... the more you know.
The Grand Army was not the only force, individual republic systems had military forces. The grand army was the majority of the offensive edge, and a reinforcement defensive force. The GAR was an organized centralized force, easier to manage then juggling the millions of alien militaries.
There were around 586 million Kamino clones in the first batch.
You can say the same about CIS - Umbarans, Geonosians, Neimodians and etc. were also present during war
I think it would be the best for the next Star Wars movies to fill in the gaps in the first three movies and cover the Clone Wars a lot
The 200.000 units for sure doesn't reffer to individual clones but to 200.000 squads or platoons. The number of clones deployed just in the first battle of Geonosis greatly exceeds the 200.000 mark if you start counting the Aclamators landing.
In the scene at the end of the movie with the aclamators taking off there are way more than 200.000 clones.