Winchester StaBALL 6.5 - Temperature sensitivity test
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- Опубліковано 26 лип 2024
- Today we have a look at StaBALL 6.5, a new powder from Winchester. Its main selling point is that it's supposed to be insensitive to temperature swings, so testing that is the topic of this video.
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Hackaday recommended. Nerds Unite!
Damn. AvE is here. There goes the neighborhood!! Haha
lol, too bad your dictator is taking away your freedom seed planters and cordless remote hole punchers!
Classic JRB - answering my questions before I even knew I had them!
we are all the huge nerds of the youtube gun world. he's been teasing this temperature test video for years. couldn't wait to watch it.
Yes to more 223 testing with heavy bullets!
80 sp from Midway I loaded 23.5 of H4895 with 80 sp for deer hunting less than 200 yards.
@@austintyler7991 Anyone notice the SP .224 bullets dont really seem to advertise what they are designed for. I have a bunch of 62gr Hrdy SP, and was hoping to use them on deer, only to find they basically explode in a single water jug.
@@paulharveu526 maybe the 80 go slower ? About 2700-2800 fps. Maybe mushroom some n blow thru other side of deer ?
223 does not shoot heavy bullets. Not like 9mm 124gr or 250gr. They are built for varmint 40-62 grain.
I'd be curious to see thst test runned again but with a confirmed charge weight in a node.
Also I'd love to see the same test with RL16, H4895, AR-comp and H4831SC.
Thanks for your hard work
H4895 test would be great..
Me too I shot a lot of H4895 , 4831 both in Hodgdon and IMR also SC. I haven't seen to much of his barrel length over 20 inches. All of mine are 24 inches. 4831 really likes a long barrel , it's kind of a slow burner. Still would make for an interesting video.
This comment - find the velocity nodes of each then do extreme temp testing
I'd like to see IMR4350 and Superformance added to the temperature tests as well!
well now I wont have to say it YES on the node THEN test
Best reloading channel, videos ever man. Sweet rifle and chrono rig
Johnny, I could sit and listen to your vids all day, just so good to listen too.
I love your reviews, mainly your “guy next door” way of talking and direct delivery. Thanks for all the work you’ve put into your reloading and testing videos!
Would love to see a series on this. Really like your format for the test and how you graphed it.
Was happy to see a new video when I got up for work this morning. Interesting test cant wait to see how this powder shoots
He’s back!
Great test method. Hope to see similar for Grendel. Thank You!
The temp stability videos are awesome. Thank you, Johnny!
I watch every video you post and this is some of the best content you’ve posted. Keep it up!!!
Thanks for the info. REALLY USEFUL for someone like me who hunts from Alberta in winter to Zimbabwe in the hot season!
Johnny, your testing procedures are spot on. I’m looking forward to accuracy test.
As always, great informing video Johnny! I'm looking forward to the followup video featuring RL16 and Varget
Great to see ya back Johnny.
I’m thinking this could be a new series in and of itself! This is an awesome video! Thank you!
This video is so straight to the point with excellent results, awesome video man!
Very good info! Thank you for taking the time and money to do this. Much appreciated.
Thank you for doing this video! I was actually just looking at this powder. I look forward to future testing.
I tinker a lot with "oldies but goodies" like IMR 4895 and 3031; it would be interesting to see how some of the tried, tested, and true products compare to the new.
Informative test ... I look forward to trying Staball in 30-06/165. I learned my ol' reliable H414 is more temp-volatile than I thought ... and H4350 more stable than I realized. Excellent handloading & range work piece!
I'd Like to try that in my 6.5 x 55 Swede if it performs well. The Swede is virtually identical ballistically to the Creedmore. Thanks Johnny, you've taught and entertained us reloading nerds like no one else! Seeing a new video notification from you is like finding yet another present under the Christmas tree!
That’s an awesome video, and of course I think your test procedures were great. I’m looking forward to seeing your tests on other powders some day. I would love to see other powders tested like Varget, IMR4064, H4895, AR-Comp, and RL-15
Very good test. I feel like I learned something by watching this .
Thanks, Wayne!
Huge thank you for this test. Great video and solid method used. Very interesting results. About to gear up and begin the 6.5CM fun and have this powder to trial, too.
Johnny takes all the stuff i wish i had time to do and does them for me. Great stuff my brother. For any future videos you do on temp stability, it would be great if you could work in the "temp sensitivity factor" you found for each powder. That way, guys could apply your data in their kestrels. I just started using a kestrel a while back and if you have solid data to input for this, it accounts for the swing in the dope output and you don't even have to think about it regardless of how sensitive your powder is. Cool stuff. You're the man Johnny 🇺🇸
Great job! This was exactly what I wanted to know and you've already answered my question on temperature stability.
Experimental method suggestion: If you read Denton Bramwell's article in Varmint Hunter in 2003 called, Pressure Factors: How Temperature, Powder, and Primer Affect Pressure, he shows pretty conclusively that you have to control both cartridge and barrel temperature to get valid results. If the barrel gets warm, it has as much or more effect on the result than the initial cartridge temperature. He tried this with both H4350 and Varget in his tests, among others, and the barrel temp swamped out any difference in the powders. Unfortunately, to really see how the powders compare, you need to fire first shots with the barrel and cartridge starting at the same temperature, as you would have from a first shot in a cold barrel in the winter or in the desert. This is quite a bit more bother, but you could probably get there by shooting the cold tests in Winter and making the same loads from the same lots of components on the hottest day in summer.
Some good testing and I love these kind of videos. I have a buddy I went to University with that has a senior level posn at a known bullet manufacturer...and he told me right after Re16 came out that it was the best temp insensitive powder they had ever tested period (and they test in much bigger temp swings than your testing). I tried it in a few of my guns and couldn't get it to shoot as good as 4350 though.
So I just started reloading this last yr and kinda copied how you record your data. I just write it in a book. It helps so much to visually see what's happening and make accurate decisions. I found two loads for my ar15, one a nosler 55gr varmint and a xm193 both shooting under a inch at 100 yds with a b.a. barrel. Science is awesome.
Great to have you back
The only channel I care when news vids are uploaded my wife could tell you that... the only way to know for sure would be figure an awesome load this winter, then do the exact same thing in the summer. I would think cold barrel out in the field 🦌 could change things..... I could use this in 270 and in Texas hunting season can and will be 90 degrees in November then 20 in December very interesting keep it man!
Badass! Please make this a series. Would love to see R16 vs R17 also stuff like Varget, AR-Comp, 8208 ect. Been trying to cut my powders down. Specially being at altitude and season swings.
You can weed out RL17 for large calibers such as 30-06. I tried it once with 180gr BTSP. Worked a load up to 2692 fps and waited a week to confirm my load, 72 degree weather 1st shot (cold barrel) was 2664 fps, 2nd shot 2692 fps, 3rd shot was 2703 fps. Didnt bother to shoot the other 2, just stopped and packed my things and went home. Varget on the other hand is on my list of powders to keep on hand, Hodgdon shows in a 308 that a gain of 10fps from cold to hot temps, where in tests i have done with 223 have shown a gain of 10fps in freezing temps. I found that Varget has no change of effect in 30-30.
Sherry Pulec Thanks.
IMR 8208 and Varget are amazing
Very interesting! And good initial test. Of course you can always go further down the rabbit holes as much as you want in endless ways with the methodology and testing if you wanted, but we get the general idea of what’s going on with these results. And I think you must be the first guy on the block (or world) to get, load and shoot the new Win StaBall 6.5!
Also, don’t mind the more to the point (for Johnny) video and think it’s fine as I know it takes a lot of time intensive video editing WORK in addition to all the regular work to put out the usual marathon length Johnny videos. Either way, we will watch them.
Thank you Johnny love you videos. Just got my 65 Grendel up and running put my first hundred rounds through it can’t wait for more videos thank you😎
Excellent video and the results were fascinating. This is the first time I heard about 6.5 Staball, but it looks like it could be a great powder.
Glad to see a new video. Been thinking about purchasing a oryx chassis. Seems to be the best bang for the buck.
great video man. I always look forward to see what you're testing. I just bought 5lbs of reloader 17 the other week and loaded some 6.5 creedmoor with it, unfortunately I didn't realize how temp sensitive it was. So since midway usa is doing free hazmat I ordered 8lbs of H4350 for my creedmoor loads. hoping for some good consistent results now. Might just have to save the reloader 17 for a certain time of the year so I can get consistent results with it. keep them videos coming!!!!
Great test! I would also be very interested to see rl16, ar-comp, and 8208xbr tested too! Keep up the good work Johnny!
Nice to see you... we’ve been waiting....
I have thought about how to do this style of testing several times. Good job. I think it shows what we needed to know. Great SDs on that new powder going to have to give it a try.
I went on an Amazon shopping spree this morning to hopefully make this easier in the future. There are cheap temp controllers for brewing and cooking that will be easier to work with than my PID. I also got some portable heating lunch boxes that should work better than the heating pad. I really want to stop everything else and just focus on this for a couple months, but I'm sure some of the audience would start a revolt. I've been relying on hearsay on this topic for too long. I like seeing it for myself! At this point it's hard to say whether the StaBALL stability results are good or bad.
@@JohnnysReloadingBench Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no expert but the way I'm looking at it Staball 6.5 beat them all!
From what I've seen you can input temp variation into ballistic calculators so the change in average velocity over a temperature range is corrected for you.
However, you cannot calculate for high SD's so the much lower SD's of Staball 6.5 tells me it will be a more accurate powder.
I'd love to see more videos like this.
Excellent video. I find it interesting your brass uses the small rifle primers. Of all the retail 6.5 Creedmoor I've shot, only the Federal uses a small primer. All of the others I've encountered (Hornady, Sellier and Bellot, Herters) use large rifle primers. I'm about to begin reloading for the first time and ordered 3 lbs of StaBALL 6.5 powder yesterday. Had I seen this video earlier, I'd have swapped out at least one of those for H4350.
Since this video is 2+ years old, I'll be going back and searching for related content on your channel. Keep up the great work.
I did a comparison of 2 different lots of h4350 for my 65. Got a 21 FOS difference. Minor if you ask me. Just figured I'd share. Love your channel, keep up the good work man!
Pretty solid test. Great video as always.
Really good stuff. I have really wanted to see this type of testing. You are a genius. Very effective and fairly simple protocol. Beats waiting until January from July to shoot groups. Where I live winters are deep cold(-0 to -20s) in January. Not pleasant range trip.
Your system is very practical & repeatable.
Good info here as always.
Thanks much for the entertaining presentation.
this was awesome! science my man! i like it. defiantly do more videos like this and trying some sweet loads with that staBALL please. love your videos man.
NEW JOHNNNYYYYY!!!!
Thank you for showing this in celsius too!
Very interesting! Very nice test protocol. Think you did very well!
I have tested the nosler 129gr accubond LR with a similar test. The StaBall did great. Lol funny how these different test and stuff work out. Great video.
I enjoyed this testing video very much... Thank you. Shoot lots and stay safe.
I was NOT expecting a pewdiepie reference. I love it! Hahahaha.
Great video, excellent method and results. 👍
Hey Johnny, what's shaken. Nice SDs thanks Johnny
The data seems to have taught us a lot. Staball 6.5 appears very consistent for SDs, not as temp stable as 4350, but good. 4350 was very temp stable, but greater SDs. Well done, thank you.
First, let me say, the compass looks good in her new skin! Second, I want to see this same side by side test with H4350, RL16, IMR 4451 all along side each other.
One suggestion, get more AI mags and load the rounds in sequence in the Hot cooler that way all you do is take out the hot mag and shoot the string.
Also don't warm up the gun try to cool the barrel (cold compresses etc.)to see what happens when you shoot cold rounds out of a 32* barrel...
Thanks for making this video, you gave me something new to chew on.
HEY JOHNNY!!! Joel and I have the same idea... really interested in what IMR4350's temp data would look like. Please consider!! Awesome test!!!
YES PLEASE,,, and AA4350
Thanks for doing this test. I would like to see many other powders tested as well. The 300 Blackout powders would be my first choice. Hope you get to it some day.
Pretty cool test. Only thing I would change would be like others have said to use a known node with a good SD for all the powders before running the test. Good work and I like seeing bolt actions on the channel.
Nice well thought out testing. Thank you
Great info brother!
Absolutely fantastic! Yup..Reloder 15 & 16 and BL-(C)2.
The method that you are using is good your essentially breaking down real world use love to see more between other powders my only thought difference in atmospheric pressure and elevation with this test
There is a list of powder temperature sensitivities that has been circulated on the internet for a while. Interestingly, it shows H414 at 1.42 fps/degree F, H4350 at .29 fps/degree F, and RL 17 at 1.42 fps/degree F. You have an 88 degree change so you numbers give you H414 at 1.41, H4350 at .17 and RL 17 at 1.18. So it really closely resembles this unknown data source. Your data would now put StaBALL6.5 at .76 fps/degree F, which is actually pretty good. H4350 and Varget always seem to produce the lowest numbers.
Thanks Johnny, great stuff as I have a number of rifles that this powder will useful in.
We love you Johnny
Good stuff. 'Real world' temperature extremes are probably more like 70 degrees F which to me means Staball would perform really well. I'm very interested in .223 results. I shoot a lot of that and I'm really hoping to see some 1/2 MOA groups with this new propellant. Welcome back Johnny!!
Good to see 7mm-08 see some love. I’ve got imr 4166 and would love some temp stable ball powder for metering
Maybe TAC?
Very interesting. Just low SD's from a ball powder is amazing. Thanks!
Thanks for the videos. They are great.
That TC compass new chassis is cool
I would REALLY like to see a good in depth series on the 6X45 aka. 6mm-223. This is a extremely economic round for minimal effort in hand loading. Gets the AR into Deer caliber in those states that require .243 bullets. Brass is cheap, bullets run from 40g - 100g in the AR. Great performance out of easily available powders.
Great Video J! I've been looking at StaBALL for my 7-08. Try pre loading your mags in the coolers. Also, add a bunch of salt to your cold cooler. this will drop the temps another 5-10 degrees.
Excellent. Do feel you need to cut your videos short. I’ve learned so much, even when you ramble. Lol
I watch these vids when I’m reloading. Longer the better....
Good info. It would be interesting to see a similar test with VV 140, VARGET, CFE 223 and some of the newer IMR powders.
Excited for your Oryx chassis review. I'm looking into it for a SA Savage.
Great test
Excited for 22-250!
And just excited in general!
Thanks for the Canadian weather conversion! I would of included vh550 just for kicks. Great vid!
You have got to love non scientists science. Even if most people are offended by proper science stuff these days. Keep them coming. You are impacting shooting here in the U.K.
Great test. Thank you.
About 30+ years ago I worked up a fairly hot load with H380 for DCM matches in my 6.5x55. I did my load development in the high 70s to low 80s F. The match day was 110 F! I had massive pressure problems. I had sworn off ball powders forever and used IMR / H4350, Varget and Benchmark since then. I just got a keg of StaBALL 6.5 and will see what it does.
Hey Doctor Frankenstein what's next for you ...great work today... looking forward to see what that powder can do with all those calibers...u made me an addict now 🥴 where's the next video at ..😂
I look forward to more testing with this powder.
Also, any chance you can do some tests on lead-free bullets (Hornady GMX, Barnes TTSX, etc)? Tests in 6.5 Creedmoor would be great!
Keep doing what you’re doing. Love the videos. 👍🏻
Great job as usual, I do enjoy your vids.
If I may say something though, 5 shots are not enough to quantify a load. For a year I loaded 5x5 ladders and got very misleading, non-repeating results. I got a lot of those tight numbers and tight groups, but I'd go back and it commonly looked totally different.
Being very perplexed by the inconsistencies, I posted this on a gun board and a guy with a statistical background replied that my sample was too small, i.e. 5 shots per charge, and it was giving unreliable, unrepeatable results.
I didn't believe him and continued to do 5x5s with the same old inconsistent results from one test to another. I finally had to consider that he was right, sample sizes were simply too small to give accurate, predictive, repeatable results.
So, I went to 25 shots per charge/load. I now have 47 sets of 25 shots each all chrono'd. The statistical analysis of these 47 large samples are consistent, repeatable, and predictive.
I calculated (statistically) the probability (percentage) of capturing the maximum velocity spread for a number of shots. What the cumulative distribution revealed was that there was a 91% probability of capturing the maximum spread in 25 shots! The probability of capturing the maximum spread in 5 shots is just under 2%.
What this all means is that those 5 shot groups we all love and have trusted can be, and generally are very misleading. For example, from one of my tests of 25 shots I calculated the stats for 5-shot groups as I shot the 25:
ES/SD:
group 1= 32
/11.7
group 2= 37/5.2
group 3= 36/14.6
group 4= 32/12.5
group 5= 10/3.8
This is 25 shots of the same load, fired slowly from the same gun, in the same range session, at a rate of about 1 shot per 45 seconds with longer breaks every 5 shots. All were chrono'd with LabRadar. The numbers per 5 shot groups look pretty good don't they?
Know what the 25 shot ES/SD was? 63/13.0 That's a far cry from the indications of the individual 5 shot groups.
And, to eliminate the theory that the gun heated up and caused a velocity shift, I added a linear trend line and it showed an increase in velocity from start to finish of 10 fps, but the maximum spread occured by the 16th shot. So temperature was not a significant factor.
The same principles apply to accuracy as well as velocity. Now that I've started shooting 25 shot groups, I know my 25 shot velocity spreads are gonna be close to 60-80 fps. In fact, the probability distribution graph for ES shows, based on 47, 25 shot sets (1,175 shots) , that the +/-2 SD (95%) points are 55-81 fps. That means that 95% of the shots I shoot will have an ES that lies within the 55-81 fps range. That was pretty disappointing to me.
And, I realize how difficult this is to believe, but anyone can verify this by simply shooting 25 (or more) shots. Also, when one gets one of those terrific 5 shot groups, shoot 20 more shots at the same POA and measure the group size.
Great test. My only suggestion for next test is you need a control group. A load that you know has good numbers and shot at current air temp. Then you can extrapolate real world temp swings. 90 degree temp swing is extreme and unlikely. But 30 degrees in a typical hunting day is very common. Just my thoughts. Keep up the great work!
Thanks! Daily temp swings are definitely something to be concerned about, but this is also about working up a load in the summer and hunting with it in the winter. Or having a favorite target load that is predictable and reliable year-round.
In Wisconsin a 60° temp swing in a day is definitely possible, also cold weather multiple shots the chamber will heat your rounds. I want something i can load up a bunch of and use to hunt summer and winter. This test definitely applies to more real world people than you think.
@@buickspecial6960 The largest temp swing in Wisconsin History just occured last Feb 1-3. Where the temp rose 91 degrees in Mather Wi. BUT that took 2 days to achieve. 60 degrees is possible but incredibly rare.
@@AnthonysOutdoors well it swung 50° twice here in the last 3 weeks in less than 24 hours. I didn't say regularly tho, i said possible. It really doesn't matter the point is one load for year round performance and hot chamber stability.
I agree with some of the comments, you dont want to work up a load in winter then find its showing pressure signs in summer.
Here in South Australia we typically range from day temps of 8-45C roughly!
Where I live its mostly ADI powders which you guys get rebranded as Hodgdon so they are fairly temp insensitive thankfully.
Loved the video! Can’t wait for the next one but you said you wanted to try all your powders so I’m wondering about N150. That what I use in my 6.5 creedmoor and get absolutely Astounding results with the Sierra gamechangers
Great video. I'd like to see the same test between H4350 and StaBALL 6.5 using your powder dump to load them both. The ball powder should dump more accurately, then be overall more accurate even at different temperatures. 20 rounds of each should be tested to be more statistically accurate.
I use varget and H4350 99% of the time. Great video and information!
Great post, thanks!
That is a sweet looking stock/chassis
Johnny, thank you for doing all of your videos, they are awesome and a huge help. I've been watching for a few years now. I couldn't help but notice that you've got a few dies that I haven't seen you make videos for, the 257 Roberts for instance. Any chance of some videos for that? Or for doing older cartridges with newer powders that have no load data? Thanks again.
Great video and very interesting topic, I had not heard about this new powder option. I'd love to see how it compares to RL16, my current 6.5 powder of choice and supposedly a very temp stable option. I'm also looking forward to seeing how it will perform in heavy .223 and maybe even 6.5 Grendel!
Wait....is there hope for more in the MK262 Cloning Playlist? That was an epic series, Johnny!
Definitely interested to see that in the Grendel up against Varget and 8208 XBR
Luv that chassis
Thanks for the great vid! I'd love to see some testing in 6.5Grendel, 6 Dasher, and heavy 223
I would love to see these tests with more powders!!!! Reloader 16, 23, 26 vs IMR Enduron line of powders