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TESTED: Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor Brass (Large and Small Primer)
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2021
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Lapua makes top-shelf brass, and their 6.5 Creedmoor offerings are no exception. If you've used this brass, you're probably aware that it's available only with small primer pockets. Well, that used to be true, but recently Lapua released large primer pocket 6.5 Creedmoor brass, and it's given me stellar results this last year with long-term testing. In this video, I'll compare both of these brass SKUs- taking a data-driven approach!
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Hi Gavin. Emil Praslick from Capstone here. One of the major considerations we had when we were developing 6.5 LRP cases was the issue of some semiautomatic platforms piercing small rifle primers due to dimensions of firing pins and the firing pin hole in the face of the bolt. Also, the US government's specification for 6.5 Creedmoor requires a large rifle primer. Great content!
Hello Emil, thanks for the additional info! (Sorry we couldn't meet at the non-existent SHOT show this year :( )
Just sent my bolt in from my AIAW to be bushed for this issue.
Well I can only find SRPs so it’s fine by me
Also just wanted to write, that some rifles might run in to issues with SR primers, If the firing pin hole is to large.
@@Ultimatereloader
Thanks Gavin for another great video!
More interested to know if there is an accuracy or velocity difference
When will this video be uploaded??? Nice video thanks!!!
Nope.........and differences noted would be COMPLETELY negligible in regards to accuracy and velocity
Be sure to use a small decapping pin with Lapua 6.5 Creedmore brass. I ruined most of the flash holes in the 100 I resized using my Hornady die. That die is meant for LRP. I purchased the SRP brass when that was all I could find at time I started this build and didn't bother to check the first case I worked. Hornady will send you the small pin for that die. Good luck.
I had ignition issues with small rifle primers and 6.5 StaBall powder. My loads were hang firing with regular CCI small rifle primers. I switched to small rifle magnum primers and have not had any problems since and have been getting excellent results.
This is the best channel ever. As a machinist and reloaded I couldn't ask for better info. Keep it up!....And thanks for taking the time to do what you do.
Ladder test until you hit pressure signs would be great. Interesting to see if the lrp gives you more velocity with the same powder charge and to see how much hotter the srp can handle
Great video Gavin! Another reason for SRP brass is the amount of pressure. If you are loading toward the higher end of the spectrum, the SRP brass has more material at the case head and will hold a little more pressure before seeing pressure signs. Keep the videos coming. You do a great job.
Gavin thanks for all the research & testing and you've got a lot of access to some great equipment.
Great info. I have A Bergara B14 Rifle that stripped the threads on the bolt shroud. Bergara sent me the parts at no cost to me but blamed it on the small primerLapua brass. My question “how does that matter”. Bergara s answer. Hornady designed it for lg primers. Interesting note. The shroud that stripped was forged and the new shroud was machined and fit better. Also 21 st century sells primer plugs so you don’t have to waste a primer for the case volume test. Great stuff as always. Thanks Gavin
All of their latest rifles are coming out of the factory with better shrouds and smaller firing pins than previous years. It's almost as though the problem was never the fault of one of the most highly respected and trusted manufactures in the market (Lapua).
I dropped my SD numbers by more than half when I switched to small primer Lapua brass...maybe it wasn't the primer size but the quality of the brass, but ill be sticking with it anyway because everything else I shoot is small primer
That is a result that's hard to argue with!
I use small rifle pocket cases. It is important to note that Lapua cases have a smaller firing hole than other cases. Many decapping pins get stuck during decapping.
My excitement was back and forth throughout that entire vid!!! :D
But in the end, glad I went with the small pocket primer cases!! It's my first time into long-distance shooting.
For service rifle, I went with Lapua .223 cases. -Lapua cases seem to garner the same reputation as your fellow shooters have found Stateside, as they do over this side of the pond.
Love, love, LOVE your vids in general, Gavin!
Love the way you present the data. Great tone and delivery in an interesting manner!
Engages people...and I reckon if not done correctly, I could've easily been put off reloading. Keep up the GREAT work! 👍🍻💪😎
Much love from the UK!
Thank you so much!!!! What part of the UK are you in? My family on the Gear side came from Tiverton. I spent the summer of 1999 at Oxford as a researcher (Mechanical Engineering) - would love to go back and see more of the UK (only have been to England and Wales).
@@Ultimatereloader Awesome!! 😀 I'm from Leicester, originally. Currently, working and living in London.
OMG, 1999 was when I finished secondary school and starting uni! 😂🤣
Well, if you're ever in town, shout!
Perfect timing for the lunch break! Thanks Gavin!
Can’t wait to see that new seating press
It's really cool!
@@Ultimatereloader it looks awesome, so I know you always ask what we may want to see. With that being said I was looking back at your loadmaster videos. I had a random thought, that you may be able to answer. Could you use a powder measure in station two as well as priming? Then in station three a powder check or bullet feeder. Keep the great videos coming I appreciate what you do.
I have 200 cases in the small pocket. I am very happy with your numbers you are putting up for them. I have ZERO doubt that I have some of the best brass out there. Thanks for the video!
Hi, I've been reloading the Lapua small primer pocket for years and I think I must have over 30 reloads and still going. I don't keep a record of the actual shots but I do keep the sleeves from the primer packets and I have used over 3500 primers.. and still going. Great brass.
Good stuff, Mr. Gavin. I’m just stepping into 6.5 Creedmoor, and only have experience with the large primer pockets. Thanks for all your work.
That was a lot of helpful info. And thank you for explaining that either small or large primers can be used for 6.5 Creedmoor and when one might be a better choice than the other. Also good to see that Lapua offers superbly consistent brass for both.
I'm getting a bit confused by your comparison of the case lengths. The caliper you're using has a rated accuracy of 0.001" and you're using a sample size of 10. How would this lead to a significant result, from which you can draw the conclusion that the large primer variant is better? The standard deviation is below the accuracy of the calipers and the difference in extreme spread is within the accuracy. So, based on that and the avg, I'd say that the tolerances for the two variants is the same.
Yep agreed need to look at “effect size”, And power of the test
It's like you knew I was browsing videos when this dropped...
Thanks for all the work that went into this study, Gavin.
One comment of comparing SD's between groups in your measurement: Since SD is a square root, it's not correct to compare by looking at the difference (i.e. subraction) of one to the other. Need to convert each back to the variance first.
Hope you keep up and share all your efforts in helping us understand reloading and components!
Use both. Bolt and gas guns in 6.5 CM. Since we tend to load to max or above for velocity and accuracy, found large primer blows out pocket much sooner. So, expensive brass, small primer lasts longer. Intuitive read is that large primer performs a little, though very little better, but not measured as you would. If we had a choice I’d use small rifle magnum primers consistently. Today that’s just an unrealistic luxury. Agree, Lapua brass is excellent. Have similar results with Nosler brass. Both very good. Your analysis is very helpful.
Palma Brass has been out for longer than most of us have be alive . Benchrest shooters been shooting sm. rifle primers in 308 and other calibers for a long time. just stating a little history , please no - comments
The info in the video was great and honestly what I expected from Lapua and the components. I was hoping for a practical demo, i.e., loading a known optimal load in small and large and actual shooting with a chrono to see the numbers and groups. Maybe another video. :)
Yes.
pretty sure I hit that like button before it loaded on my screen
Great video ! I’ve always used Lapua brass with small primer pockets for my 6.5 Creed for PRS. The rifle has always shot better than my capabilities. Good to know how little variation there is with the new LRP brass. In this time of shortages the LRP option will be worth a try. Thanks for this.
Great video as usual. Which has better accuracy
AMP press is very impressive for consistency!
Giant stretch and workout for my physics knowledge. However, after turning off the tv I was able to follow your tests and logic (the math). With the shortage of all reloading components including presses, I’ll file this video away for the future. Thank you - future reloader. Excellent physics job- thanks
SPOILER ALERT - NO ACCURACY OR VELOCITY TESTING.
just wondering srp magnum vs standard
Have you read the Masters Theses
The effects of physical flash hole deviations on factory-grade rifle ammunition
by Nicolaas Martin Schrier?
It was made in cooperation with Fiocchi
Well I have but ultimately I prefer to have a primer size which will work in all conditions & with all suitable powders which rules out the small primer version of the Creedmoor case. For target only use it’s another matter though.
@@Russell-1 its not about primer size. Its about flash hole size and position.
Great video as always, always so detailed, really appreciate them. Thanks for everything you do 🇺🇸
Your data tells me Lapua uses the same cases to make the large and small primer variants. They simply drill the primer pockets and flash holes in the last steps
Gavin, thanks for the data! Have you considered a performance compare - I am curious if there are pressure/velocity differences between the two cases with everything else being the same (powder type, powder weight, and projectile)
This would make for a great follow-up video. With the similarities in case dimensions these lots would be great to truly test primer performance. Would also be great to cool the rounds and heat them up to test the temperature sensitivities of the primer options.
I enjoy load development and would do this myself but don’t want to waste components testing right now instead of shooting.
Regardless of the resolution of the digital display, you can’t use a caliper to accurately or repeatably measure to half a thou. It’s generally accepted that you don’t use a caliper for anything tighter than +/-.002”. Even the best calibration certificate I’ve seen direct from Mitutoyo had an error of .0015”.
I would like to see more regarding large vs. small primer. Some of the things I load offer both options and have never found a definitive answer.
I can offer some insight into that based on 1000 yard bench rest competitors at our local range. These guys shoot a lot of different calibers but they all seem to be of the opinion that they will choose the small primer cases every time whenever they have the option based solely on better accuracy performance from the small primer cases. They also have tested drilling out the flash holes to the same dimensions as the large primer holes for ease of decapping without having to buy special dies with the smaller pins and found that it greatly affected accuracy in a negative way. I personally have not compared the differences, based only on others experiences.
I use small primers in my savage elite percision. My AR 10 in 6.5 cm I have to use the large primers. It will punch out a perfect little hole in the primer through the firing pin hole .
I sooo want to try Lapua brass but it's existence is that of primers right now.
Very interesting video, fascinating to look at the data. Personally I'm using SRP and have had good luck, plus I've got an ample supply of, CCI 450, CCI 41 and Wolf 223 primers. Found CCI 41's work very well. I'll be doing some testing with the Wolf primers next trip to the range.
Nice to have both options so close on tolerances. It allows for multiple options depending on primer availability without sacrificing your desired load out. Personally I don't care which I use so long as I get a high precision final product. A bullet is useless if you can not put it on target consistently, which is my main interest in reloading any way.
I would like to see a primer size video, especially if you can examine high pressure magnum cartridges.
I would wonder if powder burn rate would indicate the use of small vs large primers.
I use the Lapua small primer pocket brass because all I have are small rifle primers, so that's my case, no pun intended.
How about a similar comparison test between premium brass manufacturers, say Lapua, Peterson, and Alpha.
all the premium small-batch manufacturers here in AZ use SRP. They say it produces more consistency for long range shooting. The jury is still out on that imho. Probably just a matter of opinion at this point.
This is awesome! I like the in-depth analysis!
Hello, I measured 100pcs of Hornady 6 Creed necks and the worst I came up with was .0007"(ES), maybe 3 or 4 out of the 100, the rest of the 96 went .0000"-.0003"from one side to the other.. Great test!
And if you cannot shoot this all means nothing. The greatest improvement to accuracy is not components but practice. Some time ago a friend related a story about a national shooting champ on the range his friend who was was unable to get get a group with cheap factory bought ammo, So he approached the champ to shoot three shots as he believed that this would prove his point, that the ammo was useless. They champ sat down and produced a small clover leaf. That was the day he realised that reloading is more about marketing and selling you components and kit you don't need in the belief that it is not YOU but all the other stuff that makes you inaccurate. It is primarily YOU. Weighing bullets, sorting cases by capacity, buying Lapua brass, priming with BR2 primer have never helped my groups one iota, but practice does.
my head is hurting now with all these info.
I shoot 6 CR. Small primer in Lapua brass. Out of. Savage 10T. I found IMR 4166. with 95gr.SST shoots 1/2" 3 shot groups consistently.
I am surprised the AMP press doesn't use a spherical contact on the press head, rather than the (apparently) flat contact used. You would need a hard surface on the seating stem cap and it looks like it may be aluminum (but could be SS). The spherical contact assures uniaxial concentric force applied to the punch. I notice the "bullet assembly" almost always "rocked" when the force punch is retracted.
I wonder if these consistency measurements are less so down to Lapua using different dimensions and more so down to the fact that they're Newer and thus the tools Lapua uses to produce them are less worn. In which case a couple years down the line, when Lapua inevitable refurbishes/replaces the SRP tools when they're worn out of spec that they will suddenly be more consistent than the LRP tools since those would have worn just as much as the SRP cases you measured in this video
Love Lapua brass, and use large primer.
Primer cross compatability really is really important, especially now days. If all my brass can use one size of primer that is definitely a bonus
You have a ton of knowledge. More than I could imagine. Thanks you for sharing with us..
I was hoping you had some data on ES and SD for both sizes. 🤨
Also, how do you get accurate readings with the precision ball mic without using the small knob that slips when it is against the brass? Isn’t that the idea? Maybe I’ve been using mine wrong all this time.
I've used Lapua with small primer pockets in my 6.5 CM for a few years now with very good results. I've been annealing with my AMP and the brass is holding up really, really well. I'd be interested to know if you found any deviation when using one brand/type of primer compared to one another (perhaps in a future vid). I use CCI BR4 primers, but my supply is running low and might have to switch to a different brand in the not too distant future.
Why not compare at the range instead of just the data.
What are the odds of this subject matter today (the 9th) as I just got in some Hornady 6.5PRC and a partial order of 6.5 PRC.. and when I weighed them to compare them, they do weight different. never thought to fill them with water, and weigh them volumetrically.. like checking a cyl head space volume... clever...
Great Channel !! Lots of good info. Would love to see video on small vs big with same load and bullet. With chronograph and grouping at a set distance.
I just bought some Lapua small rifle primer brass cases because Large Rifle Primers are unobtainable right now.
Yes I use this brass is very good, 300prc
Great review as usual Gavin. I was hoping you could have also measured the base to datum line with a Sinclair or Wilson headspace comparator just for the heck of it to see how both small and large primer cases stacked up .
Do you think you could test nosler rdf 130 with staball 6.5? I know lots of people having great luck with that combo. Also, imr4451 is giving me great velocity numbers so if you get the chance, a video on that would be awesome
Also, I think it would definitely be interesting to see the small primer vs. large primer in depth. I have a press and some bullets stock piled, but I have not had a chance to ever set anything up. (I work on the road in the oil field). When I am laid off the next time, its on my to do list.
My mind keeps wondering to a Nosler caliber. It travels my mind constantly, especially the 30 nosler. I need to get something. Going after Big horn in the Sonoran Desert. Anyone?
I got a 6 creedmore and always used large primers but just got a 6.5 creedmore and only thing available was lapua small primer brass. I havent shot it enough to see a difference yet though. I did notice the case length variation on the new lapua brass i went ahead and trimmed it all to same length.
Large but some powder calls for the magnum primer and some don’t. Can I use the standard primer even when it’s calling for the magnum?
Just received 200 6.5 large primer pocket brass. Is there anything special I need to do to this brass before I reload it?
Can you tell me what caliber of rifles take small primers not very smart when it comes to this department but I have 65 Creedmoor and small primers the brass I’d like to know what other brass would use small primers you could do that for me I’d appreciate it. Thank you.
Well guess I’ll have to wait around for some large primer pockets bc it gets coldddd here during deer season lol
I think someone should make a video and use all new brass both same brand large and small primers, loaded exactly the same and pick 1 accurate load at do a side by side same day and conditions 5-10 shot groups at at least 100 yards both in the hot summer and cold winter to see if there is any SD,ES and group size difference and if so how much …
Thanks again for all the info
I’ve used hornady brass since it came out. When lapua released both types of brass I bought them to compare but ha ent got around to it yet.
I like more the large, gives some speed too.
Hi Gavin. I really enjoy your videos even though I’ve been reloading for 30+ years you have taught me a lot. I would really like to see you do a test on hammer bolts. I know they are in advance of calls but they seem to shoot very well for me and I’m just wondering what your thoughts are on them.
We are having a unique problem that is causing only the small primer cartridges to stick in my 6.5 Creedmoor. And we can’t seem to figure it out or get answers. Shooting, the Henry long Ranger with barns LRX. With 43.4 grains of 6.5 stayball getting 2850 fps just wandering if your interested enough to possibly help figure this one out.
Don’t use Staball for starters. Use H4350, RL16, or RL23. You’ll have a tough time finding Alliant powders now that they are keeping almost all their powder for factory loads.
I have been quite pleased with Creemore brass and Starline works well for me as well (not for 6.5)
I was getting short of LR Match primers and wanted to see if the SR Brass would work, since I have some SR Match primers left. Good Thanks. The hunting aspect is a good point, but folks have been using the 30-30 for many decades with the SR primer and I have yet to see any griping about the primers. I think the SR issue in the cold is a case capacity issue with mag cartridges and using harder to ignite ball powders.
I just purchased the Lapua small primer 6.5 creed. I have both, large from Hornady. I have not yest tested my loads, but the biggest advantage for both is primer availability. I happen to have both but some may not. Other than that, this was a great video as I was wondering all the thigs you presented. I now know I can have my cake and eat it too! Thanks.
Thanks Gavin. Geez, no reason to neck turn those suckers. Always wondered how a no turn ppc would shoot.
Yes I would like you to make more videos on that
Would love to see the video going into detail on the F=PA regarding the primers sizes!
Very helpful ! Thanks a lot !!!! ... greez from Austria.
Hey Gavin. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. If you have not compared the Starling brass to the Lapua brass. In both Lrp and srp. I would like to see that. Including velocites, deviations, and powders. I compared to you and a novice reloader. Though I have been reloading about 20 years. The only competitive shooting I do is against myself. So primarily I use my reloads for hunting. My belief is this though, wether competitive long range shooting or hunting. It is still about consistency ,shot placement and accuracy. Thank you again.
John.
Please compare Lapua brass with Norma brass. Price is almost exactly the same here.
Time for your silly question of the day !! If going with small primer pockets, would using small magnum primers help with possible ignition problems ??? Thx. for all the great info, love the channel !!
Peterson cartridge has a 243 SRP brass. Would that be worth it? Has anyone tried it?
I disagree with one factor in your large vs small primer analysis. That factor is powder choice. Some powders ignite more easily than others. For example, when I spoke with the powder guys about 6.5 Staball (ball powder) for use in the 6.5 CM they specifically recommended large primers. Some people have apparently experienced somewhat inconsistent ignition when used in conjunction with small primers. Although this powder was designed to be temperature stable, I would not be surprised if testing were to disclose that low ambient temperature had an effect on ignition. Years ago Benchrest community testing concluded that the maximum powder column height that a small primer would consistently ignite to their satisfaction was about 1.75 inches. You may also recall the thin wall small primer “Palma” .308 Win brass. It was well known to be a warm weather combination.
I note that you have a review of 6.5 Staball which I look forward to watching.
Where was the ‘test on target?’ …. All good info if all you want is numbers, but how does it manifest on target?
Very pleased with small primer Lapua in 6.5 Creedmoor, I have loaded some of it over 15 times and it is still accurate!
That's some great longevity! :)
Hi dude - I did e messure with 24 out of the box and had a super spread. Than I took aditional 40 of the same box. The spread was "much" more. What do I want to say? If you got a Box of 100 - test al and not only 10. What I proof - that figure means nothing.
Hey Gavin, love your work. I would really love for you to do the testing on Peterson brass 6.5 Creedmoor. I have found that Lapua brass is king but when compaired to Peterson, I have found That Peterson brass is very consistant also. And is A bit more price friendly than Lapua.
Also I am Curious about Powder ignition, And how it relates to deviation in uniform pressure, Provided by large Vs small primers
6.5 creed would be an interesting choice to take to a land where one could possibly confront a 10 foot brown bear. 🐻 I’d feel like I was naked in a snow storm 🌨
Will their be velocity differences between the two? Will the SRP exhibit a velocity bump or the LRP? Will one be more consistent than the other over the course of a PRS match.
Thanks Gavin, great info. I didn't even have to duck.
No error bars quoted? GT's assuming he makes no mistakes in using the kit (clearly not true) and the kit has perfect repeatability! You have to doubt validity of stats to the quoted levels of accuracy.
What about load data between the 2 large and small primers do they shoot the same vol ? Powder charge etc
Gavin what 6.5 creedmoor Die set do you recommend a brand and what one 's are needed i use the Lee 4 set one now thanks Danny ? yes i use Lapus SRP cases 4ph6011 .059 flash hole
How do we light a fire under primer, and powder makers fannies?