How To Set Up a 1073 Neve Style Pre Amp
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- You are probably setting up your 1073 style pre-amp wrong. The "magic" is typically in the OUTPUT section of a Neve style pre-amp, but because the big knob is red we think we are supposed to crank the INPUT. Wups!!
I just tried it this is mind blowing information. Sounds so much better with the trim cranked instead of the red knob. This information has changed my life wow so glad I found this video
So happy I could help!!
Reconsider better, the closer your red knob is to Zero the cleaner the signal so by cranking the trim you have to gain stage your red knob lower… but if you want a clean preamp use API or Avalon you’re robbing yourself of the NEVE sound by using low settings on the red knob 30-40 is classic neve by cranking the trim you normally land around 20-25 on AMS which gives a clean API Avalon type sound which is nice to have for some applications but not everything.
@@darrellwright6254 mine sounds way better with the trim and red knob up. I always had my trim on 0 to try and do what your saying and I realized I was missing a bunch of the flavor 🤷🏻♂️ at least on my particular model have the 500 series
Basically full open trimpot is unity gain, you adjust additional gain with the red knob. You can do this trick too with your speaker monitors. Interface volume fully open usually is unity gain. Adjust the level of your monitors while the interface is at unity gain (for best results for mixing hit 80db-85db spl). End result is calibrated speakers monitors at unity gain and low selfnoise (speakers don’t have to amplify as much). Plenty of articles on this online. Happy music making!
Thanks for the tips!!
Hey thanks for the tip! So would you recommend me turning my interface monitor volume ALL the way up and calibrate my speakers volume based one that basically?
What if you're using a monitor controller instead - would you turn the gain all the way up on the monitor controller and adjust the volume knob on each monitor? Assuming you're using powered monitors of course.
I've got a BAE 1073MPF arriving in two days and this video JUST SAVED ME a lot of hassle! Thank you!
tried and already recorded a song like this, what a difference, ive always had problems getting levels correct with my pre amp and trying to use an 1176 with it (uad console plugins) and even with plugins, this method actually really helped to control the pre level as well as give me a way better starting point for my leveling compression with the 1176. great video!
Yay! Happy I could help 😁😁
did you max the output? what about the level fader?
Ive been searching for this information for 3 days straight thanks a lot!
You're welcome!
Some pearls of wisdom here for sure. I didn’t realize most of the desirable colouration came from the output transformer. The AMS 1073’s have 3 separate transformers - 1 before the red knob, 1 after, and another before the insert point but before the A/D (DPD model). Disengaging the -10db pad on a U87Ai, saturates the first stage, turning up the red knob saturates the second stage, turning up the “Trim”, saturates the third (output transformers). The last one requires a compressor in the insert or a 20db pad. When you find the sweet spot, you’ll KNOW it!
the 'other' input transformer in a 1073 is for the line input. its only in circuit when the gain switch is in the line range.
Mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn lemme tell ya. U KILLED it with this video for me. I was using a Neumann 105 Mic and am trying out the I Shure SM7B. I was not getting what I expected from the Shure until I tried it you way. THANKS. I HAD NO IDEA THAT I NEEDED TO BE CRANKED UP TO THAT LEVEL.
Happy I could help!
OMG 😱I have an AMS Neve 1073LB and did that wrong too.....I tamed the grey trim knob a lot to be able to crank up the red Gain knob. I am considering to buy a BAE 1073MPL, so thanks for this video and the advise.
Hmmmmm. I do it both ways. Its all fun to experiment and you will have varying results based on your input signal. I love the ability to shape the sound and dont think there is a "wrong" way especially if you are running in and out of a mixer so you wont clip and can controll the signal on both ends. I use both methods in order to get a clean or thicker or darker signal so it all depends on what you want.
Few weeks away from getting a 1073lb and thanks to you ill have a way easier/productive journey with it! Thank you.
Even( Golden age project) in the manual says to get the smallest color keep it cranked on the output ! finally tried this and wow there's that lovely distortion if cranked you would need to use a compressor to tame it but realistically you would never push it this high anyways !
3:17 he does not like the Neve distortion? It's gold on bass, vocals etc. Thickens and adds excitement that seems to always sit in the mix. It's inimitable. Horses for courses but don't just use a 1073 for clean headroom. I think the fact that you asked successful producers and they used it "wrong" speaks volumes.
He's saying output is the neve sound not the input gain
@@chukah9484the magic red knob
Well, that does make sense if you're looking for the cleanest sound out of a 1073... but 1073s do actually distort in a beautiful way and it's part of what makes them so special. They are just different colours to paint with, if that makes sense.. It's not wrong to overdrive the preamp into distortion, it's a creative decision though for sure.
saved my life ! i had a feeling i was doing something wrong... appreciate it have a good one 💫
Happy I could help!
i’ve had the Heritage Audio HA-73 and also use the Unison 1073. 40 on the red knob is the sweet spot for me. sometimes 45 and sometimes 35. i just learned by dialing the knobs while i was talking/rapping into my mic until i found a combo that sounded nice. but i was nervous to push the trim so much until i saw another pro had it set similarly lol
I also have ha 73 35 -40 red
I always use the red knob at 35
I'm going to have to check on the warm audio one then....I hadn't even thought about this. Good video!!
I have a wa273 and I understand you're supposed to crank up the trim pot as well. That is if you want the intended coloration. It's perfectly fine to run your trimpot at noon if you want it to have less coloration and be more transparent.
mmm, I guess it depends? Overdriving the preamp and using the trim is a quite common trick used by many pros... Cool vid. Thanks.
Exactly my thoughts. The guy in the video pushing the full trim = better... Has he had any hits?
@@CIRCLEOFTONE I think the point is that by decreasing the output via the trim knob you are feeding the output transformer less signal, and driving the output transformer with a lot of signal accounts for some of the saturation characteristics associated with this type of preamp. I don't think the original 1073 preamp had a trim knob. I could be wrong though.
@@MyManDan the trim knob is basically the fader (if you think about the unit as a console channelstrip, which it originally is), except it seems to be situated before the output stage (transformer). How hard the output stage is driven is not only dependent on the trim, but also on how much you signal you send into the unit to start with, and how much you amplify it at the gain stage(s).
Which is why this sort of "this is wrong, this is right" is pretty nonsensical tbh. As always, it depends on what you want to achieve and on what you're feeding the unit. Assuming you need a healthy line level output in any case, you could either:
- 1. Max the trim and only apply the necessary gain from there = cleanest possible signal
- 2. Drive the input harder and back off the trim = more saturation
It's true that you could do example 1 and turn down the trim. This would drive the output stage less, but it would also leave you with a weaker output signal for recording/processing further, which nobody wants. You could compensate for this by cranking up the input gain, but then we arrive at example 2. Voila.
So yes, OP is right to state that turning the trim down is "wrong", but this is ASSUMING that you will not compensate for it with the input gain, which I very much doubt he hasn't been doing. Of course he has been setting the input gain to wherever he has a healthy signal fit for recording. He has just been driving his unit harder than necessary, which is not wrong, but a stylistic choice introducing a bit more saturation.
This is true for maaaaaaany preamps, and it's the reason preamps without an output attenuator/trim are way less flexible if you approach them from a saturation-perspective.
@MyManDan the classic had no trim but the 3u enclosure has an output.
Output trim
Thanks heaps for this video! I am awaiting the arrival of my first 1073 preamp (Stam) and this gives me confidence in getting the best results, much appreciated mate.
Happy I could help! You’re gonna love it 😁
This really explains the JHS Colourbox as well.
Dude, you’re a mensch for sharing this! Such a simple but important thing, and who would’ve known? Thank you! 🙏💛👍🏼
I have one of these units and if you supposed to leave the trim knob cranked up all the way up, there would be no reason for a trim knob. Sometimes I don't want a lot of coloration so I dial back the trim knob other times I want to hit that output Transformer as hard as I can so I Crank It Up. Believe me that knob is there so you can change the tone/color of your signal.
I have a Vintech 273. I was literally looking for everything you covered in this video. And yes I was doing it wrong. Vocals kept distorting and I was doing exactly what you said. Low output. High input. I’ll try this again shortly. Thanks.
Happy I could help!
Actually if you're using an original 1073 in a rack rather than in the board, typically about 3/4 of the way up on the output pot is unity rather than all the way clockwise. The reason for this is that the pot is typically wired in the fader insert point before the output amp, and typically you'd have 0db on the fader around 3/4 of the travel. Obviously depends if you're matching the pot value to the original console fader.
The only thing I’ll add is each click on the red knob is a different warmth… I have an AMS so I go off the microphone and tone of vocalists to choose my preamp gain (as long as it’s not clipping the i/p) then I use trim to set my o/p level going into my tube tech. So while that may be “true” you shoot yourself in the foot tone wise by using the trim as the first level in your gain stage. (Trim turns signal up or down but doesn’t change the character of the neve preamp; no different than a fader in your DAW)
Great video. The only part that I have to disagree with is the bit about overdriving the preamp in the BAE instructional video you reference around the 3min mark. I have a BAE 1073mpf and find that overdriving the preamp into distortion can be really nice, especially on bass synth sounds. As if the bass sounds coming out of my Moog Sub37 aren't already cool enough, running it into the DI on the BAE and pushing the gain knob and dialing back the trim adds some great sounding distortion. I definitely understand the point that they were making, as far as it not sound similar to the kind of distortion you may get from a guitar amp/pedal, but they shouldn't sell it short because it can definitely be pleasing when used on the right source.
this is kinda right and kinda wrong. yes, trim on full is the cleanest and lowest noise way to run the 1073 style pre. but back in the day, when they existed only in consoles with faders (the fader is where the 'trim' control is in the circuit) you would usually record with the fader at 0db, which is 10db below the top of the throw, so you are wasting 10db of headroom. this was all calculated to work with the gain structure of the desk and tape machines in that time. it also means you have +10 of gain 'in hand' (and minus up to 50db) to ride the performance to tape, which was very common.
so if you want to run these preamps like they would have been used most of the time on vintage recordings, find the -10 point on the 'trim' control and start with it there, and adjust the gain switch. on BAE preamps this is approx 12 o'clock. but if you want lowest noise and distortion, run the trim all the way up.
this has no effect on how much level hits the output stage and output transformer btw, as the fader/trim control is between the second active gain stage of the BA283 circuit and the output amp. running the trim low with more gain coming from the first two stages will cause musical nonlinearities in those stages before clipping occurs, and in my experience clipping these stages can be musical sometimes as well. so just use your ears and twist to taste.
another thing to know is that below 55db of gain, the 1073 only has one of its two gain circuits switched in. once you turn the red gain knob past 50db, and the 'off' position above it, another circuit identical to the first is switched in, so the signal is now going through more transistors with more distortion. I often run the gain at the first step where this extra stage is engaged as i like the extra colour it gives, and then turn the trim/fader down so its not too hot.
Thanks for this detailed info! That’s super helpful!
fantastic video thank you, i got a wa73 for my sm7b and uab twin and this is helpful
It’s sad but I had the Neve 1073 SPX for almost 2 years. Was never super impressed so I just sold it 2 days ago. Then I ran into this video and a Bae audio video today about the correct way to set it up. Lol.
wups! We've all done it though!
Cheers for sharing your knowledge regarding these preamps. 👍
My pleasure!
Brilliant, thank you so much for this tip! Been doing it wrong for years. :D
Do you know if the output of the HA-73 heritage should be used to the maximum as well? behaves the same as the Neve?
Well, the trim knob is basically the fader (if you think about the unit as a console channelstrip, which it originally is). How hard the output stage is driven is not only dependent on the trim, but also on how much you signal you send into the unit to start with, and how much you amplify it at the input gain stage(s).
Which is why this sort of "this is wrong, this is right" is pretty nonsensical (or worse: clickbaity) tbh. As always, it depends on what you want to achieve and on what you're feeding the unit. Assuming you need a healthy line level output for recording/processing, you could either:
- 1. Max the trim and only apply the necessary gain from there = cleanest possible signal
- 2. Drive the input harder and back off the trim = more saturation
It's true that you could do example 1 and turn down the trim. This would drive the output stage less, but it would also leave you with a weaker output signal for recording/processing further, which nobody wants. You could compensate for this by cranking up the input gain, but then we arrive at example 2. Voila.
So yes, OP is right to state that turning the trim down is "wrong", but this is ASSUMING that you will not compensate for it with the input gain, which I very much doubt he hasn't been doing. Of course he has been setting the input gain to wherever he has a healthy signal fit for recording. He has just been driving his unit harder than necessary, which is not wrong, but a stylistic choice introducing a bit more saturation.
UNLESS you have a unit where the trim/output can actually amplify the signal beyond just passing on whatever it receives one-to-one (which could be the case in some instances I guess). Then you'd have to choose a balance between using the input gain or the output gain. If this is what OP is getting at, then I think it could've been explained more clearly, and certainly needs a disclaimer since many outputs/trims are purely attenuators not capable of amplification.
This is true for maaaaaaany preamps, and it's the reason preamps without an output attenuator/trim are way less flexible if you approach them from a saturation-perspective.
You're right when it comes to certain pre-amps, but not this one. It's all pre-amp dependent depending on how they are set up. I explained that when discussing the second pre-amp I showed in the video. Driving on this Stam Neve and some other Neve style pre-amps doesn't lead to the good kind of saturation. It just leads to nasty sounding distortion.
Da boss 🎉🔥
Wow… gold. Thanks for sharing 💪🏾
You’re welcome 😁
Theres a difference between setting a pre to get the max clean headroom and driving the pre to color the sound.
On a Neve style pre the color is equally (if not more so) in the OUTPUT transformer. That's what the designer told me ...that's why you should have the output on max (as possible) on one of these units.
Thanks for this... just got my Stam 1073EQ+.... I probably would have made the same mistake. Cheers
Cheers bro!
Its interesting to me that the makers of these variants didn't specify a mark within the range of markers around the Level knob. I was also surprised that someone in the comments mentioned that they have an AMS NEVE 1073LB and they were in the same position. I have the 1073DPX, and it has a distinct point that indicates unity gain. In the manual it's described like this:
"Adjusts the output audio level. This control is post-EQ be pre-output
stage. The thick line on the graticule indicates the point of nominal unity
gain; the unit has ~5dB in hand. Pressing this knob cycles the level
meter take-off point through three possible points in the signal path,
indicated by the adjacent LEDs."
If you look up the unit, you can see that marker for reference. It's a thicker line.
I agree, though the original NEVE pre-amps didn't have them, so the clones are just going with the way it was always done in the past. People don't like change, haha.
I have a 1073 SPX on the way right now, are you saying this model works in a similar way? So set the output trim at unity, adjust red input to taste, and mainly use that to dial in a sound rather than the output trim?
Kind of in that at least you know where to set that trim pot for unity gain, and then fine tune if needed once you've set the gain with the main pot. @@cityhippie
@@cityhippie You likely already received the unit and have the gist of it but to reply; I copied and pasted the sentence that explains it (from the manual). Set that to the thick line with represents unity gain and IF necessary, fine tune the output with that pot. The pre has great headroom so it shouldn't be necessary but there if you need it. I find that the unit makes anything that goes through it sound great, whether the signal is low or hot. Enjoy ...
I'll try tomorrow, thank you 😊
based on schematics the RND 511 trim should be at max and used only as an attenuator. OT but similar concept - good video
Definitly gonna try this later.
Thanks for this video David.
Happy I could help!
Wow!this is great info ,thank you,I am subscribing to this channel
Welcome aboard!
I was onto this for a while MSM engineer told me this haha, set the output to max an adjust red to taste
👍🏼👍🏼 …shocking how many people don’t know this though 😅 …I didn’t for years 😅
Hi please I have WA-73 EQ can you release the video for WA-73
Great Preamps
What about the neve 1073 SPX?…it says labeled, level, instead…does that need to be set at noon or fully clockwise?
I have a Bae 1073 MPF, i will try this!
Does anyone knows if this is the way to operate a warm audio wa73?
All trim out as well, the other had a tube so u wanted more in the middle .
Thanks… very useful
i would have liked to actually hear the difference from your vid. Thanks for the info.
how does that compare to the ua plugin? we have the red preamp knob, level fader and output knob?
how do i check if this works with my neve. i have a neve 1073 SPX
This ^
Best to call/email the manufacturer if you're not sure and ask for instructions.
hey did you ever find out? I've been recording with this and I think the answer is no. the SPX has a "Level" instead of a "Trim"
Thank you for this precious information 🙏. Do you think it's the same for the UAD version of the Neve 1073? Because everytime I try to record my vocals with unison technology through a 1073 emulation they sound too saturate in the loudest parts...
I’m not 100% sure. I don’t use the UAD stuff. My friend who does use UAD tells me it works the same way though, and he cranks the trim knob on the unison neve pre.
Same question. How does is work for the UAD Neve 1073? You have 3 Level options - the red knob, the Fader and at the end the "clean" Output knob
I used to have the UAD system and the 3rd is simply a mic level volume for the whole plugin iteration.
THANKYOUUUU
Quick question please - firstly thank you for this video, I was really struggling with it as well thanks for the explanation! On the Neve 1073SPX you have a line that is Unity gain but then it has ~5dB in hand on top that can be pushed. Would you say stay on unity gain or go into even more of the +5dB pushed territory?
I'd just A/B test to see in this case which I prefer the sound of.
@@DavidDiMuzioLessons Thanks! Appreciate it.
same for a Neve 1073 SPX ? or units nominal gain on the thicker bar ? at 2 still don't know.
It seems strange that BAE would have it set up this way then the other's ?
Thank You!
You're welcome!
Hello. What about Phoenix audio Preamp? Also do crank up the output knob like Neve?
Yeah thanks !
Do you know by chance this applies to the stam Helios channel as well? Thanks! Great vid I have two of the stams 1073 channels too!
I'm not sure...
The Stam Helios level pot should be at 100% for max headroom. It actually doesn't have a full balanced output stage so you're just reducing the preamp output with that pot.
Thanks!
what level of lufs do you get when you set the knob to 40 and the output to the maximum? without other compressors and equalizers.
Does this also apply to an original Neve 2-slot 80-series Chassis? Neve calls it “output” and not trim
thanks for your great tips! do you think it is also true for Universal Audio's Neve 1073 ?
Not sure...
neve, wunder, chandler, they all say output fader 80% open is close to 0, not all the way open
Thank you thank you thank you
I have a Chameleon Labs 7603, which is based off a Never 1073 (I think). Would this be the case for me too?
same for a Neve 1073 SPX ? or units nominal gain on the thicker bar ? at 2
This doesn't work for me!..
I have a WARM audio 273-EQ which as well as using for tracking I use as part of my "mastering" chain. I sent the stereo output into the 273 and have bus compressors etc in the inserts... Anyway long story short, with the dials at "noon" this setup is Whisper quiet and sounds awesome. I just remastered adjusting the input down from 40 to 20 db and the output from "noon" to 0 and thought it sounded great, until I listened on some good headphones and this setup introduces a very quiet but audible hum :( I'm using a clean power supply btw. It makes sense, transformers are where tone comes from, but also where hum comes from!
Just a warning to anyone trying this, REALLY check your noise floor. In my setup this is definitely not the "least noise" setup.
Thanks !!
Ha! I didn't make that mistake! Yay! However, I find the EQ from the BAE 1073 kinda sucks paired with the Telefunken ELA M 251 E. I Simply turn it off because, in my opinion, it doesn't serve the mic. What do you think?
I don’t know how that is possible, for me the BAE is by far the best 1073 out there (non vintage). I guess to each their own but I find BAE to sound great and even better than the current AMS 1073’s.
It’s because of the mic 🙂
@@diegobernard9506 to be fair I’ve never used the 251 with the 1073 so fair point lol.
Why you don't like it with EQ engaged? You experiencing HF roll off with EQ engaged? Sound become darker?
@@georgeleap6731 there’s a simple fix to this whole ordeal. You grab the HF shelf knob and turn it up. I don’t know how this is even a problem. Probably humidity within the mic.
❤
I purchased the BAE 1073 with eq mainly for lead vocals recommended from Sweetwater. I have my u87 going into the mic input of the bae out of the bae into a ua 1176. I can't find any tips or tutorials on youtube using the BAE 1073 EQ for recording vocals only for guitar or bass did I make the wrong choice purchasing the BAE for recording vocals? Thanks
I’ve only heard good things about their pres. I think you’re in good hands.
- If you want the smallest amount of coloration, always set the
OUTPUT level potentiometer at or close to maximum and adjust
the output level with the stepped GAIN switch.
- If you want more character, turn the OUTPUT level potentio-
meter counterclock-wise and increase the gain with the GAIN
switch. This will drive the input gain stage(s) harder and provoke
more character from them
do technically the trim all the way up ? and ride the input knob ?
You touch the tube with your hands?
Not so fun fact: I emailed AMS Neve three times and never got a precise answer. “Listen to your ears“ is basically all they had to say. I specifically asked how I get the cleanest signal and the best headroom regarding the output.
How annoying.
dude, do you think this trick will work on my UAD neve 1073 preamp emulation?
Would this also work with the UAD emulation ?
would this be applicable to the UAD 1073? i read the manual and it says the "Level" knob is modeled after the Neve console fader, with 0 being unity gain and anything above that potentially causing output amplifier clipping. Is the output amplifier clipping part of this strategy? should i bring the Level fader up to its max of 10db then adjust the red knob accordingly? thanks for the help
I’m not sure 🤔
So on my Neve 1073LB it suppose to be set at 12?
Is a Neve 1073DPX setup this way too?
I’m not 100% sure on that unit. Best to check with AMS Neve directly on it.
Per il ManleyVoxbox e Avolon?
How do you amplify the signal if you start with the output at max volume ?
It is amplified with the output section, and you still USE the input section, just depending on how much (if any) additional input level you need.
How about the original Neve 1073? I have the Neve 1073SPX..
Try it. Should have the same effect
Does this work for slate 73?
What about focusrite isa one? is the trim in isa one the same of neve pre style?
Those are “Neve inspired” and designed by Rupert Neve but are nothing like a 1073. I have 16 channels of ISA pres. They’re great but totally different.
Hey does this also work in the plugin?
not sure
Interesting, I'm definitely trying this ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Happy I could help!
what. is. your. lens. ?
Sony G master, I think it's 28-72.
Mpdi4 or 1073?
1073 for me.
@@DavidDiMuzioLessons What do you like about it that puts it over the top in comparison with the UTA
Hi, with this video you're basically saying that the well-known trick to drive the input harder and lowering the output is a mistake. That you shouldn't do it. A very academic and uncreative point of view in my opinion.
I think if you replace his words "correct" and "proper" with "cleanest" signal, it makes a little more sense. Even the guy in the BAE video said "you'll get the cleanest signal this way." Obviously, you don't always want the "cleanest" signal - especially on other instruments. But to record the cleanest vocal possible, for instance, on a ballad, let's say, running the output full up is the way to get that.
The video talked about different applications and obviously you can get whatever sound you like.
He's saying drive the output transformer instead not driving the input which is good point since I'd assume doing what you said is the thing I'd naturally do
@@chukah9484 the point is depending on what your doing driving the input transformer harder vrs the output and the amounts will depend on applications for instance on High gain guitars . The ability to back down the output is what allows the system to fatten up inside
Try both ways and use your ears. Period. Be thankful this free video posited an alternative approach for experimentation.